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TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Friday, June 6th, I’m Jane Coaston and this is What a Day, the show that did see that anti-vaxxer and extremely elderly quarterback Aaron Rodgers is joining the Pittsburgh Steelers, an announcement that came in the midst of a giant internet fight between two other famous people who spend too much time complaining on podcasts. [music break] On today’s show, President Donald Trump and Elon Musk trade barbs on social media for hours. And a Massachusetts teen detained by ICE is released on bond. But let’s start with former President Joe Biden and whether his administration may have helped to keep his alleged infirmity under wraps. Now, I know what you’re probably thinking. It feels extremely strange to talk about the former president being not all there mentally when our current president says things like this pretty much every day. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] No, but I’ve uncovered, you know, the human mind. I was in a debate with the human mind and I didn’t think he knew–

Jane Coaston: That’s President Donald Trump with the new Chancellor of Germany who’s probably, like many world leaders, thinking, what the hell is going on? And that’s the same President Donald who is now demanding his administration investigate the former president’s pardons and executive orders. Because of, among additional reasons, the former President’s use of an auto pen to sign documents. A few notes. Trump has also used an auto pen. You can’t undo a pardon. And let’s recall that a lot of this is because Trump still believes he won the 2020 election, which he didn’t. I get it. Donald Trump is a generationally weird and bad person who has gotten even more addled than I thought possible. But if we as Democrats, as liberals, as progressives, as people who oppose all this shit want to understand why Donald Trump is president again, we need to understand what went wrong at the end of Biden’s term in office. Why didn’t he stump for the Inflation Reduction Act in a cross-country tour and brag on television every day about his achievements in the fight against climate change? Or his many, many efforts to support LGBTQ rights? Or his support for unions, because he was, again, the most pro-union president in American history? Was it because he couldn’t do that? We don’t know. And I’m guessing that the efforts of the GOP to investigate Joe Biden’s actions by bringing his former aides and doctor before Congress is going to be political theater, the likes of which only Donald Trump, who loves musicals, could enjoy. But there is a version of history in which we don’t have Donald Trump 2.0, and I think it’s worth understanding why, in part, that didn’t happen. So Alex Thompson stopped by the studio. He’s national political correspondent for Axios and the co-author of Original Sin with CNN anchor Jake Tapper. Alex, welcome back to What a Day and congrats on the book. 

Alex Thompson: Thank you so much. 

Jane Coaston: You were one of the first mainstream reporters to really draw attention or try to to Biden’s age. And you were attacked by the Biden administration and Democrats for doing so. But as you were reporting out this book, what surprised even you, someone who’d been following this, about the extent to which officials within the administration and on the campaign had been covering up Biden’s decline? As the title of your book says.

Alex Thompson: I guess I’d say it this way, the Joe Biden we saw on the debate stage against Donald Trump in June of 2024, the number of times that other people within the White House and within the broader Democratic Party had seen Joe Biden act like that and didn’t say anything. And just basically like held on and said, I hope this works. 

Jane Coaston: Right. 

Alex Thompson: Uh. I think that was sort of shocking, the amount of people that knew. 

Jane Coaston: This is something we, I think, interpreted, but Biden had implied during the 2020 campaign that he would be a bridge candidate to a new generation of Democrats. So what changed? Like, when did it switch from, I’m a bridge candidate to I’m running again? 

Alex Thompson: I don’t think anything changed. I think he said the bridge candidate part in the middle of a presidential primary when he knew that there were concerns about his age in order to get over the line of getting the nomination. You know one person close to Biden had told us he is nothing if not for this. The people that are closest to Joe Biden have told me, have told us that like every president runs for two terms. Every president gets eight years and that desire by him was then reinforced by the family for a variety of different reasons. 

Jane Coaston: So he was lying. 

Alex Thompson: Um, well, he never explicitly he would say he never explicitly promised to be a one term president, but he definitely made people believe it, even though I don’t think he ever meant it. 

Jane Coaston: You and your co-author, Jake Tapper, write about this mentality you refer to as quote, the Biden-ness, this deep belief among Biden’s closest allies in his ability to overcome adversity and prove people wrong. And you say it played a big role in justifying his reelection run. And while I think a lot of us know about the ways that Biden has overcome unimaginable tragedies, the death of his first wife and daughter, the death his son, Beau. Two brain aneurysms, I was really surprised to hear how something far more petty was part of that Biden mentality. And that was resentment over how former president Barack Obama and others in his camp had discouraged Biden from running in 2016. People in democratic circles, in liberal circles in 2015, 2016, they wanted him to run and were very encouraging of that happening. Can you talk about that a little bit and why those feelings were still festering after he did win in 2020? 

Alex Thompson: Well from the Biden perspective, Obama never truly appreciated Biden’s gifts. Obama was a bit of a snob. Obama was a bit of like a part of sort of the intellectual elite that Joe Biden had always resented and felt never took him seriously. I think the fact that Obama clearly preferred Hillary over Biden to be his successor, I think really wounded Biden. Because what what bigger slap in the face is there to say, I think she’d be a better president than you. And Biden never got over it. And it wasn’t just Biden, it was the entire core team around him had a deep resentment of a lot of people from Obama world and Obama, which honestly is part of the reason why, despite some of like the insinuations that Obama was the the puppeteer, like trying to get Joe Biden out of the race, Obama knew that actually he had to play it very conservative because he knew if he did anything, Biden would get his back up even more. 

Jane Coaston: Right. And I think that that goes to one of the big tensions within the administration that comes through in your book, which is between staffers whose allegiance was primarily to the United States government and its proper functioning and doing stuff, and the staffers who’s primary allegiance was to the Biden family specifically. How did that tension divide the White House in 2024, or in the lead up to 2024? 

Alex Thompson: In every single White House, there’s always a tug of war between, are you more loyal to your boss, or are you more loyalty to the larger cause that you’re part of? As you insinuate like the sort of Biden theology of he’ll always come back, they eventually sort of lost sight of the party, the White House, the country and they saw like service to Biden as being the same thing as those other things. As a result, the Biden White House operated in a way that anyone that even didn’t seem completely 110% on board with Joe Biden was, you know, slowly but surely pushed out of the circle, was not given as much access, was not seen was essentially like– 

Jane Coaston: So he was even more insulated. 

Alex Thompson: Yes. 

Jane Coaston: Then you know as this keeps going. 

Alex Thompson: Yes, absolutely. And there was this protective shell increasingly built around him. Cabinet members couldn’t see him. Senior White House officials couldn’t see him. In the end you know he regularly only had interaction, honestly, usually with like five to ten people. And they were all hyper loyalists. 

Jane Coaston: In the reception to your book and to talking about this, there’s a real temptation to focus on this as being just a family story, but it is also not just a politics story, story, about a policy story, because there was a lot that the Biden White House wanted to do and a lot that it did do. How did Biden’s infirmity impact the Biden White House’s policy proposals, the withdrawal from Afghanistan or immigration reform or the inflation reduction act? 

Alex Thompson: I would say um there were members of the administration, members of the cabinet, senior Democrats in the Senate and in the House that believed that his age played a significant role in a few different things. First and foremost, the fact that Joe Biden, who had, you know, supported a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget amendment in 1984, had signed the crime bill, was like a hawk on immigration. Uh. If you look at Joe Biden’s entire career and you look at how he governed the first two years, you would sort of be shocked. Like from an objective perspective, because like Joe Biden was like center left, middle of the road Democrat. And there was a feeling among some members of the cabinet, some members of the administration, that if he had been 20 years younger, he would not have governed as to the left as he did. And they felt that because he had limited energy, limited time of the day. Um. That as a result, more power flowed down to staff levels. And in particular, Ron Klain those first two years, his chief of staff. And Ron Klain was to the left of Joe Biden and steered that way. Um. I’d also say people felt that Biden’s sort of, you know um age in which he really oriented himself and geared himself towards issues where he felt more comfortable. Um. In particular, like NATO, Ukraine. Made it so he didn’t pay as much attention to you know thornier issues like immigration and the border. And you know Senator Michael Bennett, we have an [?] in the book, where a Democrat of Colorado goes to an immigration event in June 2024. And he comes out of that event believing that Biden’s age is leaving him unable to handle the actual portfolio of this of this thorny thorny issue. Um. But, you know, it it is difficult to tell. I will say also this. There’s a lot of Biden people that will, they will acknowledge that, yes, his schedule was limited. Yes, um he didn’t have as much energy. Yes, his communication abilities degenerated, but then will still insist that his decision-making was as good and as sharp as ever behind closed doors. 

Jane Coaston: I realize, to some extent, this is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking. We are looking back and yelling at each other about it, but it also seems like some signs of Biden’s decline were painfully clear to a lot of people and then became even more so to everyone at that debate. You write how Biden needed note cards and teleprompters, even during cabinet meetings, you even spoke to four of the president’s own cabinet secretaries for this book. So how did they rationalize Biden’s decline or did they? 

Alex Thompson: I would say the main rationalization that all these people had was Joe Biden beat Donald Trump before. Joe Biden is probably in their own minds, probably the  best decision to beat him again. Uh. And Donald Trump is an existensial threat to democracy. And if you believe those things, then you can really rationalize anything. 

Jane Coaston: Right. 

Alex Thompson: I’d also say just on a crude pragmatic level, given how small and insular the circle was, um a lot of senior administration officials basically felt, I’m not gonna change his mind. Uh. There’s only like three or four people in the world that could change his mind. If I go public, it’s only gonna hurt him and help Donald Trump. Now you could argue like that’s still sort of like a, you know, a cowardly way out, but I do think for some of them it was sincere. 

Jane Coaston: We’ll be back for more from Alex Thompson, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break] 

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Jane Coaston: Here’s more from my conversation with Alex Thompson. So we know how the story ends for Biden. But I think one of the big questions a lot of Democrats are still asking themselves, and it feels like the book couldn’t quite answer, is to what extent was this a concerted effort by a few people to deceive the American public about the limits of a man they knew was no longer fit to hold office? Versus an inability or an unwillingness to deal with the fact that the Joe Biden that they knew or were around in 2011 was not the same person they were dealing with in 2021, 2022. And they could not and did not want to accept the reality that Biden’s best days in politics were already behind him. After reporting out this book, where do you fall?

Alex Thompson: It’s hard to say definitively, I mean and I think there are people in both camps, but even the people in the latter camp, which were basically people that were just in denial, if you look at their actions, they knew that he was struggling. So the best example is Jill Biden. I think if you were to ask her, and put her even on truth serum, she would say, Joe Biden is fine. Um, there’s not been decline. She said so on the View recently, but if you look at how she acted behind the scenes and in front of cameras, um, increasingly interjecting in conversations when he was like sort of stalling out increasingly saying, hey, you remember so-and-so, you know, basically guiding him at events. Even if she would not admit it to herself, her actions, I think, speak to the fact that she knew that he was not as able as he once was. And there were a lot of people, even if they were in like you know denial rationally by their actions, they knew that he was not the Biden he once was. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah. And I think that that, I mean, that’s the part that actually for a lot of people might be kind of familiar because you might have, you know, parents for whom one parent’s like, you know, my spouse is fine. And yet they’re having to do so much more. 

Alex Thompson: Yes. 

Jane Coaston: Republicans, because of course they are, are planning to launch their own probe into Biden’s health. Senators are planning a hearing this month. Some have even called for a DOJ investigation. How explosive could those be with the proviso, again, that this is something, you know, Republicans have been basically saying that Joe Biden had dementia in like 2018. 

Alex Thompson: Whether or not these hearings um make a difference. I mean, as you know, like so many hearings are just like show trials. Just because some Republicans are operating in bad faith and just trying to like obscure attention from other things still does not make it less newsworthy and interesting to probe this further. I would say like for like one instance, me and my colleague at Axios, Mark Caputo, were the first to publish the tapes of the Robert Hur interview for uh special counsel Robert Hur, who investigated Joe Biden on you know classified documents and took a lot of heat when he basically said that he couldn’t prosecute Biden because he was had memory issues and was a well-meaning old man. When the transcript of that came out, a lot reporters and a lot Democrats sort of bought the spin that Robert Hur was acting in bad faith. If you listen to those tapes, I think it has shifted the conversation. And those tapes only came out like a month ago. I think there are going to be more examples of not just the political consequences, but the potential policy consequences of having a man at that age in that position. 

Jane Coaston: I think what was striking for me is that I think I thought that, you know, we’re not in the era of Woodrow Wilson having a stroke and Edith Wilson running the White House. We’re not in the area of FDR being in a wheelchair and the entire press corps being like, we just won’t ever show you in a wheel chair. This is a time in which presidents are, rightfully so, more examined, more analyzed, more, you know, observed than at any time in human history. What takeaways did you have from your reporting that you think could be useful going forward for future presidents? You know whether it is about ensuring that we know more about the health of presidents, whether it is about you know something else. I’m just curious as to you know as you’ve been talking about this book and reporting on for this book, what do you think could change that this might not happen again? Where you couldn’t have essentially, as you, you know, the Polit bureau protect the president from himself. 

Alex Thompson: You’re right to mention both like Wilson and FDR. JFK–

Jane Coaston: Yeah. 

Alex Thompson: Like lied about having Addison’s, was taking lots of drugs. George Washington also was not transparent about his health. And like–

Jane Coaston: Nobody is transparent about their health. 

Alex Thompson: Well and–

Jane Coaston: Reagan. 

Alex Thompson: Yes, exactly. And I bring all those examples and to show that like Joe Biden is not unique. 

Jane Coaston: Right. 

Alex Thompson: And he won’t be unique again, unless there is some sort of forcing mechanism. It would take Congress, it would take another branch of government to force a president to actually disclose, like have a full disclosure of health under like penalty of perjury. You could have the White House position submit documents. President Trump’s health summary, first of all, he almost disclosed nothing when he was president and his recent health summary. Um there’s you know it is more than he gave during the campaign, but it still begs many questions, including the fact that like, do we believe he’s like 6’3″, 215? I mean, maybe. Uh.

Jane Coaston: I’m just saying I don’t think he has the same BMI as like Jalen Hurts. 

Alex Thompson: I mean, forget Trump for a second. Biden is not the first, he will not be the last unless there is like some deeper conversation going on about presidential health, especially in the nuclear era, where a president, you know, Woodrow Wilson didn’t have the ability to blow up the entire world, neither did FDR. 

Jane Coaston: Right. 

Alex Thompson: Um. But Joe Biden did. And we had no, and Donald Trump does right now. 

Jane Coaston: On that reassuring note, Alex, thank you so much for joining me. 

Alex Thompson: Always a pleasure. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Alex Thompson. He is the co-author of Original Sin with CNN anchor Jake Tapper. [music break] Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of Friedrich Merz] This is D day anniversary when the Americans once ended a war in Europe. And I think this is in your hand in specific, in ours. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] That was not a pleasant day for you. 

[clip of Friedrich Merz] No, that was not not a pleasant. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] This was not a great day. 

[clip of Friedrich Merz] Well in the long run, Mr. President, this was the liberation of my country from Nazi dictatorship. 

Jane Coaston: This is German Chancellor Friedrich Merz attempting to school President Trump at the White House Thursday. They were supposed to talk about trade and the Ukraine war ahead of the anniversary of D-Day. But Trump sidetracked the conversation to rant about his once-but-now-ex-best friend, Elon Musk. The tech billionaire spent this week crapping on the president’s so-called big, beautiful bill, calling it a, quote, “disgusting abomination.” You know the bill. The one with the massive tax cuts that would also cut hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicaid funding, which Elon is fine with. In fact, what he wants are more cuts. Trump admits he and Musk are having issues. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] Look, Elon and I had a great relationship, I don’t know if we’re well anymore, I was surprised because you were here, everybody in this room practically was here as we had a wonderful send-off. He said wonderful things about me, you couldn’t have nicer, said the best things, he’s worn the hat, Trump was right about everything, and I am right about the great big beautiful bill. We call it a great big, beautiful bill because that’s what it is. 

Jane Coaston: Trump also said he thinks Musk just misses him after leaving the White House last week. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] People leave my administration, and they love us, and then at some point they miss it so badly, and some of them embrace it, and some them actually become hostile. I don’t know what it is. It’s sort of Trump Derangement Syndrome, I guess they call it. 

Jane Coaston: The spat continued Thursday. At one point, Musk tweeted, quote, “Time to drop the really big bomb, @realDonaldTrump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they have not been made public. Have a nice day, DJT.” And he also agreed with a tweet that argued Trump should be impeached. You’ve heard of enemies to lovers, but what about lovers to enemies? A messy breakup during Pride? Groundbreaking. And I have to mention here that House Speaker Mike Johnson is still trying to get Elon on the phone. He’s ghosted you, girl. I’m sorry. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] We will not allow people to enter our country who wish to do us harm, and nothing will stop us from keeping America safe. 

Jane Coaston: President Trump is once again banning whole swaths of people from traveling to the U.S. That’s according to a proclamation he issued Wednesday along with a video. He said the ban starts Monday and would apply to citizens from 12 countries. Brace yourself, here they are. Afghanistan, Myanmar, Chad, the Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. The policy also imposes travel restrictions on nationals from seven other countries. Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan, and Venezuela. Those nationals can’t immigrate to the U.S. But can still apply for some temporary visas. And if you, like me, just said, Burundi? Laos? What? Yeah, you’re not alone. Trump said the list is subject to change. And if you think you’re having deja vu, you are. Trump signed a sweeping travel ban during his first term. It was coined a quote, “Muslim ban” by critics because it applied to a group of predominantly Muslim countries. It was repealed by former president Biden. While Steve Bannon was arguing that Elon Musk should be deported and the weirdest MAGA fans on the internet were melting down, the Supreme Court made news on Thursday too. Here are three highlights. Decision number one. The court ruled that a Catholic charity in Wisconsin was indeed entitled to a tax exemption that the state court had shot down. The Wisconsin Supreme Court had said the charity serves and employs people of all faiths and its activities were, quote, “primarily charitable and secular.” But the U.S. High Court said Wisconsin violated the charity’s First Amendment rights. Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote, quote, “a law that differentiates between religions along theological lines is textbook denominational discrimination.” In decision number two, the court sided with a woman who claimed she was subjected to reverse discrimination in the workplace because she’s straight. Last, but certainly not least, the justices also blocked a lawsuit filed by Mexico. The Mexican government alleged top American firearm manufacturers were responsible for the marketing and distribution of guns to cartels. The court said, nah, saying you usually can’t sue gunmakers for crimes committed with guns. 

[clip of Marcelo Gomez de Silva] My name is Marcelo Gomez de Silva. I don’t want to cry. But I want to say that, that place, it’s not good. It’s not good. 

Jane Coaston: That is a Massachusetts high school student and that not good place, the immigration custody center that he’d been in. Immigration and customs enforcement agents seized Marcelo Gomez de Silva last weekend when he was on his way to volleyball practice. He spoke to reporters after his release on bond Thursday. 

[clip of Marcelo Gomez de Silva] Ever since I got here, they had me in handcuffs. They put me downstairs. And I was in a room with a bunch of 35-year-old men. And those rooms were small, compared to the size of like how many men were there. There was like 40 men in there. We would barely get any attention from the people there. It would be really hard. I haven’t showered in six days. I haven’t done anything. The only thing I could do is thank God every day, because that’s all I would do. I would pray there. I would talk about the Bible to them. 

Jane Coaston: Authorities said they were originally looking for Gomez de Silva’s father and they had spotted his car. They picked up the son, who had been driving that car. Gomez de Silvas’ lawyer, Robin Nice, spoke to reporters outside the courthouse Thursday. She said her client had no criminal record. 

[clip of Robin Nice] This is all a waste. Like we disrupted a kid’s life. We disrupted a community’s life These kids should be celebrating graduation and prom, I assume. Like they should be doing kid stuff and it is a travesty and a waste of our judicial process to have to go through this. 

Jane Coaston: Nice says Gomez de Silva first entered the U.S. on a visitor visa and was later issued a student visa that has since lapsed. And that’s the news. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, contemplate how the two most powerful people in America spent all day Thursday fighting on the internet, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how seriously, the two-most-powerful-people-in-America took it to the timelines like they were about to get dragged into a Real Housewives reunion with Andy Cohen, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston. And it would be funnier if it weren’t weird, but it’s also still extremely funny. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Fohr. Our producer is Michell Eloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Craig Walters, and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]

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