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Louis Virtel And we’re back with an all-new episode of Keep It. I’m Louis Virtel. Now, here’s what’s going on. I realized that Nicole Kidman is back on TV. Anne Hathaway is in another movie with mother in the title. And Madonna is back with a new single. So when the producers were talking to me this week about what we were gonna do, I said, bring me a gay man. In a rage, I said it. And look who I found. One of my longest friends in LA, the esteemed New York Times movie writer, and advocate magazine alum, as I am, Kyle Buchanan.

 

Kyle Buchanan Happy to be here, Lewis. Also, shout out to Ivy Wolk, who was on fire last week.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, please imagine her being any other way. Yes. No, I it’s it’s upsetting actually when someone who’s 21 years old knows all your references Because that was my thing. I like being the young person with all the references and now I’m you know, wizened and now we have another one.

 

Kyle Buchanan But very happy to be here to talk about the things that as we were just saying to each other, we talk about for free in our actual lives.

 

Louis Virtel I feel bad that there are no more dimensions to my personality like if you run into me at Akbar which is where Kyle and I often run into each other we will just be talking about the new Anne Hathaway movie so it’s like it’s like immersive theater you always get a part of it.

 

Kyle Buchanan Oh yeah, I mean, at my gay poker game that I throw every week, I think two weeks ago I snuck into the mix, one of Anne Hathaway’s songs from Mother Mary, and it came on and two people raised their heads and said, Anne Hathaway?

 

Louis Virtel They’re like, I know that timbre. So we’re about this life, is what we’re saying. But speaking of places you’ve been, you were at Coachella last week. I was. Now, first of all, my first question is, do you regret not going week two?

 

Kyle Buchanan You know, honestly, most of the time, weekend one has all the great guests. And this year, they were saving all the surprises for weekend two. And even some of the performances were a lot more activated. I feel like Justin Bieber kind of like worked out the kinks and delivered something that made more sense. Do I regret not going? No, in so far as we had better weather. True. And the dust storm, you know, kicked up from a week of people walking around. The previous week is immense and I already had enough like you know long problems after weekend one But it was fun to watch the live stream It was amazing to see Madonna come out during Sabrina Carpenter.

 

Louis Virtel Obviously. This is extremely overwhelming for me. You can’t just throw that name throw that name out there like that. Only I may bring her up first. It’s like a vampire threshold thing. Yes, Sabrina Carpenter brought out Madonna, but before we get to that, let’s just first bring up that Sabrina Carpreter brought out Gina Davis, doing a monolog in a car. And by the way, the reason she did that was because last week she had Susan Sarandon do the same one. Who is the faggot on that team? Who put together the Thelma and Louise math?

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, absolutely, and that was great. I will say, you know, watching that Sabrina set, you know, in person last week and then, you know, on the live stream this time, the interludes were very interesting. I feel like Sabrina’s whole vibe is like fun, camp, sex, and yet she was kind of introducing these sort of like Twin Peaks The Return, black and white, scary interluds with like Sam Elliott last week when Susan Sarandon did her monolog. It was much longer. And I think a lot of people who are coming off their role were somewhat confused by what is happening and what’s going on. And I did see that on the live stream this week when Gina Davis appeared, a lot people simply did not know who that was. Which is their fucking problem. Well, I do appreciate that Sabrina is willing to educate the children. Whether it comes to Gina Davis and Madonna being out there or she brought out Earth, Wind and Fire at Lollapalooza because sometimes the children do need to be educated.

 

Louis Virtel Did you think for a second, Gina Davis, Madonna, will the Rockford Peaches be reunited right here?

 

Kyle Buchanan Absolutely, where’s Lori Petty?

 

Louis Virtel Please.

 

Kyle Buchanan Probably commenting on the-

 

Louis Virtel Also, by the way, I’m always asking where Lori Petty is. That’s just a fair question, period.

 

Kyle Buchanan Annnnd she’s right there.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, ah, love tank girl, by they way. Yes, but Sabrina brought out Madonna. Then they did Vogan Like a Prayer, but also they have a new song on Sabrina’s new album, which actually I don’t have the title of right here because Madonna has another new single right now called I Feel So Free. It’s the first, it’s not really the first single, it’s just the first track on her new album Confessions 2, a sequel to Confessions on a Dance Floor. And what did you think of the display we got, the vocals we did or didn’t get, and how they vibed together on stage?

 

Kyle Buchanan I love the way that they vibe together. I personally might have started Madonna off already on the lower floor.

 

Louis Virtel And when she started way at the top of that staircase, it’s like, I’m having visions of, I’m sorry, Miss Piggy, flying down like tumbling over herself down the stairs.

 

Kyle Buchanan Look, I would probably fall down the stairs in sneakers if I were up there.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, that’s what I mean. Yeah.

 

Kyle Buchanan But you know, especially if you’re in heels and at least she had hunky backup dancers who were willing to bring her down there. I loved it. Honestly, the thing I love the most, in addition to the songs, is the very long spoken interlude about astrology.

 

Louis Virtel Excuse me. This is actually now a Madonna standard. If you go to a concert, it is her prerogative to stop the concert dead in its tracks, to talk for a long time and repeat herself 16 times. Astrology is a relatively new thing she’s obsessed with, at least in terms of what she brings to the public. Usually it would just be, you know, explaining her history like giving you the like tall tale about how she came to New York with $35 in her pocket it’s like I I I simply don’t know if that’s true or if she has watched her own behind the music enough times that she actually believes it but yes she went on a astrology tear that I believe she thought was amusing but was mostly just the words of astrology.

 

Kyle Buchanan I don’t know if the astrology is true either, but I loved it because it was pure Madonna being Madonna. They had added an extra 10 minutes to her set, to Sabrina’s set over the previous weekend, which you would presume is for the singing, but i think was actually for the talking. And for as much fun as Sabrina was duetting with Madonna, I found Sabrina to be at most fun watching Madonna talk in an unscripted fashion for a long time.

 

Louis Virtel No, and she handled it just right because she responded with just enough wit and a little bit of, you know, that pin-uppy bounce that Sabrina Carpenter has. They’re also an interesting pair because they both are funny and cheeky and sexy, and they both have that kind of Mae West thing about them, like, oh, say something to me and you’ll get a fucking one-liner back. But they also are kind of, they’re not the same in a way. Like Madonna’s like aggressive and Sabrina is more, you, know, light and fluffy. She’s cheekier. Yeah.

 

Kyle Buchanan And Madonna’s had cheek at times, but like, it’s not what she leads with. No. But still, Sabrina and the other pop girls would not have the sort of careers that they have, nor put on the sort shows towards concerts that they do if it weren’t for Madonna. She is the blueprint. So I appreciate Sabrina bringing out Madonna, especially because I don’t know that the average 21-year-old Sabrina fan really knows that much about Madonna. They know that she is famous. They know that this woman who has come out is very famous, that’s why they’ve got their phones out. But have they heard like a prayer? I’m not entirely sure. You know, like, I think the most seismic Madonna event of their sentient lives is probably when Glee did an episode on it like 16 years ago.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, and that’s still 16 years ago. Yeah, um, no, I am I too am curious what people’s actual knowledge of her is at this point because it’s a lot of like You hear pop stars kind of pay lip service to her like, oh, well, she paved the way but we also do I don’t think people know what that means or know how kind of like in your face and like But like the interview she would give in addition to like the music videos, etc But I have to say, you know, Sabrina Carpenter is not somebody we tout as like an amazing vocalist. She sounded fucking fabulous on Like a Prayer. And also it was so suited to her. Like the cheekiness of the lyric really pops in that song when she sings it. When Madonna sings it, you hear the Catholic angst. You hear the priest she’s defying from her childhood, you know. But when Sabrina does it, it’s, you, know, pure kind of Marilyn Monroe-y, you-know, fun and bouncy. And then, of course, they did Vogue too, which you know, every time you go to Coachella and like the word Marlena Dietrich has thrown at you An act of defiance has occurred. You don’t expect to hear that at Geese. No, right, exactly. Elsewhere at Coachella though, I have to say, you know who I am fucking stoked for? Slater. I am so stoked for this woman.

 

Kyle Buchanan Oh my god. So she, you know, a moment is possible at Coachella that can truly launch or relaunch your career. And I think we saw that two years ago, Sabrina and Chappell Rhone kind of became who they are at Coachell and I think this year we saw with Slater who is kind of in this like pop dance rock mold, you now, but just has this incredible new album, Worst in America, that had just come out right before… Her set which essentially kicked off the entire weekend and the vibes were incredible like everyone was screaming, shrieking, dancing, getting their life to it and I’ve seen it burn up social media since I think she’s having sort of like a mini brat moment here.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Well, also, she’s one of these people who exists kind of in the liminal space between people like Ava Max and Kim Petras, so she could almost get lost in the mix. And yet, as a live performer, first of all, it’s pure explosiveness. As I noted on social media, and you agreed she looks a lot like Karen Black, the actress from Five Easy Pieces and Dave the Locust, the great 70s actress, but also the writing is so smart. It’s actually a songwriter Lee album in addition to being this like, you know big Aggressive very funny rock dance pop Moment and I’m just I’m psyched for her jumping out ahead of these other names that felt all a little synonymous to her before I like her last album which was called Star fucker it’s called star fucker and the song I love Hollywood on that. I love that too But now it’s like she’s having that carving out her own I know her personality now, and there are so many people… Whose personality I still don’t know. And I’m talking about Dua Lipa. Go ahead.

 

Kyle Buchanan But you know, I think, and I’m glad that you brought this up because Slater’s been at this for a while. Sabrina had as well, Sabrina had multiple albums until like she really broke. And Slater has been around, I’ve been putting Slater songs on my like playlist for a long time. But this album is the moment and I think that people especially on social media are so eager to consign artists who aren’t the biggest women in the world to the Kia Asylum. Yes. And I think we need to think about it more like the Kia Incubator. Because… Sometimes it takes a couple albums and you find yourself and everything hits, and you’re ready. This is like Candide, the optimism.

 

Louis Virtel Popping off here with the IKEA incubator. That’s really beautiful. Thank you. But also, no, it’s sort of like, think of it as sort of the actor’s studio for an upcoming pop star. Like go ahead, try things out. We’ll see if you have, you know, the stuff to really pop as like a singular performer.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, and honestly, I think that’s part of the fun of Coachella I mean, there’s the people that you’re excited to go see but then there’s also the people where you’re like Oh, I’ve heard their songs, but I’ve never seen them live. You might be a little more skeptical of them You know Addison Rae was a good example of that. I mean that is a very fun album I think we can agree. Oh quite some great bops We’ve been dancing to that like since last year diet Pepsi rules, you know all of that Yeah aquamarine, etc But I do feel like people didn’t quite know what to make of this first exposure to her that I think a lot of people were having you know, she had a daytime slot on the main stage, so people just went and checked out of curiosity. And I saw a lot of people on social media being like, oh, the crowd’s not feeling her, the energy is not right. I don’t know if that was a crowd problem or maybe sort of like points to this sort of, this thing that people are rubbing up against with the Addison Rae project, which is I think that she as a person projects a somewhat different vibe than her songs. Like, do I believe that Addison Rae is experiencing ennui on the French Riviera? No, I believe she’s having a great time at the Glendale Galleria, you know? Like me! Yes, when she is projecting mystery and talking about smoking cigarettes, but she’s doing it with this, like, incredibly cheery mall girl esthetic, I don’t know that people quite knew what to make of it. And at one point, she was, you know, sort of getting the crowd to sing along to her song Money’s Everything by being like, And when I point to you, you’re going to sing. Money’s everything. And I felt everyone rebel. Like it just felt like maybe there’s some cheeky capitalist satire embedded into that song, but was she selling it? Yeah. Like was she in on that joke? It felt like, like, you’re an actress in a Paul Verhoeven film. Like, do you know there are air quotes? Like you’re Denise Richards in Starship Troopers. Like yeah. Do you know? I’m Elizabeth Berkley. Right, right.

 

Louis Virtel I think I’m doing something crazy, but I’m also topless, so what’s happening? So what’s happening?

 

Kyle Buchanan She’s almost doing it so well that it’s like you lose the air quotes and maybe for like the just sort of general observer, they’re not getting what this message is supposed to be.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, well, she’s also kind of a hologram of a person. You know, it’s like, what is the person behind? But I’m also not really interested in what the person behind the music is, because the artifice is so lovely and so well presented. And as I said, it surprising that she is, though, like her own version of a live act. What offends me is when people say, she’s the second coming of someone like Britney Spears. It’s like guys, let’s get this, don’t get it twisted. Britney Spear’s… Like as A plus as a Laker girl can be. Yeah. She is, she is, and she is dancing to like the Jock Jam soundtrack, okay? That is not Edison Ray’s vibe, which is much more kind of diaphanous and You know, tingly. Yeah, yeah, languid. Yes, Langor, which Dua Lipa is good at. I wanna get back to a compliment for Dua Lifa. But I am interested in her future because I’m wondering how many different types of albums you can release in the mold of just like, I fluttered at you a little bit and now I’m going away. Yeah. Like how much there can be there.

 

Kyle Buchanan Should we fear, like, a MAGA controversy two years into her career, too? That’s the thing where it’s like, if I don’t know Addison as a person, I don t know what I don’t t want to know.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, this is a word she would use to describe herself and it comes up in the other thing. I feel like she is such a slut for music that I feel she can’t possibly go MAGA, but I don’t know. Maybe, maybe.

 

Kyle Buchanan But she might date a guy. Yeah, we might be like, oh, I don’t like his social media posts Yeah, I know. I don’t know. What can we expect from Addison as an artist? But also as a person I feel like if we don’t know yet, you know, that’s the thing that people are bumping up against

 

Louis Virtel Again, I maybe brought this up last week, too. I’m concerned about just calling her Addison though, because when you say Addison, I thank Kate Walsh and Grayson. Okay?

 

Kyle Buchanan I like Edson Ray as a name.

 

Louis Virtel And she should be a pop star. Now, did you see Carol G?

 

Kyle Buchanan I did see Carol. What did you think? I mean, she gave everything.

 

Louis Virtel This woman is sick.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yes, in a good way.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, no, as in like-.

 

Kyle Buchanan And we’ve got the fever.

 

Louis Virtel No, it’s like when Danielle Deadweiler was here, I said, you are not just a good actress, you are a sick actress. As in something happens and you’re like, damn, like the actual power. And also like, it, it it’s such a rowdy good time, but there’s something fucking serious about her. You know, like you are getting the entertainment from this woman.

 

Kyle Buchanan There is a maxim that I say every year at Coachella, which is a female headliner will give you the show of their lives and a man will just show up. Right. And like though I liked the Bieber set, I don’t think you had a starker illustration of that than what Sabrina and Carol G were doing and what Bieber was doing. Again, I liked The Bieber set. I think it was intimate. It was stripped down like his music, but Carol G’s was so maximalist. Carol G was out there basically saying like, I’m going to give you a two hour long Super Bowl set. Yeah. I’m gonna spend everything I’ve got. I’m to show you everything that I’m capable of. And if you didn’t know me before, you sure know me now. And she stood out in front of this like fuck.

 

Louis Virtel And laser show of lights that was provided. And also it’s like, it was also Flintstones, Viva Rock Vegas, love that. Also it’s, I love the actual set fit in with Coachella. My problem with Sabrina is it was too Vegas residency as a look and that’s different than Coachella, there should be something outdoorsy and like kind of primal about what we’re getting too.

 

Kyle Buchanan Although it was very California, there were, there were details about the Sabrina set, you know, the sort of blinking lights of the homes in the faux Hollywood Hills that I didn’t really appreciate until I saw it on the live stream weekend too. Whereas Carol G, that show could be seen from space. Do you have an ideal Coachella headliner you have not seen yet? Cause I have never gone yet.

 

Louis Virtel Next year will be my first year.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, Carol G actually made me think of the pervasive rumor that Shakira has been pitched as a headliner for a long time. When will her 4’10 ass get on that stage? There is, you know, I think when people do the Coachella mock-ups, they’re often forgetting that there’s usually a significant Latin artist who’s usually on the come-up. Yeah. Obviously, Shakira’s already come. But like, I know that she delivered a good show. I know that that music would be great. Um you know i’m a rockist if they bring back radiohead i’m gonna get my life i love that um but also i mean for me so much of the fun of coachella is those slots when i don’t know anybody yeah and my friend is just like oh come to the nina geraci show and then she becomes you know a major artist in front of your eyes i love it shakira is always secretly three times

 

Louis Virtel more an interesting artist than you think she’s the only person who’s ever collaborated with will.i.am and i loved it you didn’t let britney out unscathed on that one in my opinion that was not britney yeah well that was a speaking spell which is his favorite instrument i think uh-huh you know but um i do actually like that song i do but uh uh no i’d be thrilled to see shakira that’d be my same answer before i forget though what did you think of madonna’s new single which was released elsewhere it’s.

 

Kyle Buchanan I like the vibe of it. Like I’m curious to see what this is gonna be. I’m generally skeptical of sequel albums.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Kyle Buchanan But I’m going to give this a chance.

 

Louis Virtel Especially since a sequel is very not Madonna. She’s very been obsessed with, I don’t repeat myself, I’m not a jukebox on my former hits. And then, you know, the celebration tour came around and she was like, what if I made a lot of money? Right, unless that sequel is Awesome Powers, The Spy Who Shagged Me. Yes, oh my God, one of the great movie songs of all time. Truly a beautiful stranger. And by the way, she’s so funny in the video. Like the acting was on. In fact, what is your favorite Madonna movie role?

 

Kyle Buchanan Oh man, I mean honestly it’s probably Dick Tracy.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I’m not surprised, I knew you would say that.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, I mean she’s really good, I know that she has some limitations as a screen performer in movies. Oh I know,.

 

Louis Virtel Nobody’s ever said that before, what are you talking about?

 

Kyle Buchanan And I think that the nature of the role works really well and her singing Sooner or Later is great and led to one of the best musical performances at the Oscars ever. One of the few times you can see that Madonna is nervous on stage and it’s transfixing.

 

Louis Virtel Well, again, Jeremy Irons is in the front row. I mean, who wouldn’t be nervous? I think my answer is a league of their own because I think she’s funny. And it’s like, because I the secret with Madonna is she’s great with a female director, Susan Sidelman, Penny Marshall, you know what I mean?

 

Kyle Buchanan We put her in an ensemble and she just like figures out where she’s supposed to be

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, because I think she wanted to be ultimately a character actress. Have you seen Who’s That Girl recently? Mess! Though at the same time, she’s giving you a kind of impish, like, uh, uh… Judy Holliday equality. That works almost. The material’s not good and maybe she goes too hard, but there’s something there.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, I mean, for as, you know, generational and significant as Madonna is, you know, so big that she only needs one name, she’s really fun with other people. Yeah. She’s fun in her duet. She’s in her like stage moments with other people. She’s as part of an ensemble, just like she was fun with Sabrina.

 

Louis Virtel This episode, we’ve got plenty more gay things to talk about. That’s why you’re here. You know the assignment. First of all, we will get into the new movie Mother Mary starring the fabulous Anne Hathaway and the fabulous Michaela Cole. Unusual film, but also pop oriented. So it dovetails with our earlier conversation. Also, our interview this episode is, I mean, there’s no other way to put this. Every once in a while, I get to interview one of my pop culture heroes. This woman is so fabulous, not just as an actress, but as a teacher of acting. And now she has a new book called Poetry Says It Better, Poems to Help You Wake Up. It’s about how poetry has informed her life and career. Ellen Burston is here today.

 

Kyle Buchanan Truly, I feel like this knocks off one of the only major legends you haven’t gotten to speak to. Is there anybody left? And by the way, it’s actually a legend I would want to speak to. Yes. There are so many people where I’m like, please stay in the ether. Wait, actually, I’d rather know. Yeah. Who do you now want to talk to? Oh, I mean, I say this as a fan, I do not need to meet Madonna. Please. Really? Yeah. So if Madonna

 

Louis Virtel I was like I actually want to come on keep it. You’d say no. Oh, honey. I’ll make the time I’m just saying if I can keep the distance I will you know what I mean. It’s going well the distance I have between me and Madonna.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, I mean, do you mean that in a you don’t want to meet your heroes because they might disappoint you away because I feel like if Madonna was like a little bit of a bitch to you, it would actually be great. Oh, no, no.

 

Louis Virtel I would love that. I just from an interviewer perspective. I don’t oh sure I think not that I would be a fanboy, but wheedling information out of her I feel like she is in particular resistant to that and I don’t think I would get what I want Yes, but you could have one of those cagey iconic moments of Madonna refusing to answer the question Well, and also rejecting the premise of the question.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, I mean sometimes like I can take it if you’re gonna be like cold and frosty to me I was at a dinner party once and Isabel Huper was there and I was talking to other friends at the table About some romantic woe that I was experiencing and I gradually noticed that she had started to lock into our conversation and Wanted to be caught up So I turned to Isabel huper I’m starting to like recount this you know story of this guy Who is he into me isn’t he into? Me like I? Can’t tell and truly 10 seconds into summarizing it for her, she loses interest so palpably and turns away from me. And honestly, work. I was saying. And ladies and gentlemen, the French. Yes, I mean, like, could I have wanted a better experience from Isabelle Hubert? That was the Hubertiest. Do you know what was mind blowing? We interviewed her.

 

Louis Virtel Ira and I a few years ago for, of course, Mrs. Harris Goes to Paris, and she was excellent. Great answers. I think we both actually, we worked our asses off. We got the questions together, like Ira turned on his computer and looked things up for once. And I nailed it. She loved it.

 

Kyle Buchanan Honestly, my favorite Ellen Berson credit is of recent vintage when she said that she did the Exorcist sequel for the money.

 

Louis Virtel By the way, if you look at her filmography, very little of that, you know, I mean, she’s in some kids movies here and there, like she’s in the babysitter’s club, for example, but for the most part, you, it was pure prestige the entire way. We didn’t get to talk about The Last Picture Show, which is one of my all time favorite movies, but we talked about many others and you better believe she was wearing a scarf. We will be back with more Keep It.

 

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Kyle Buchanan Okay, so I was really into this film, but it is a film that goes in some crazy art-filmy esoteric directions. The thing that always kept me invested in it is that boiled down, it’s about a friendship breakup. And to me, that is one of the most fascinating subjects and surprisingly under-explored when it comes to movies and television, like even in real life. If you tell me, oh, Peter broke up with his girlfriend, I’m like, oh that’s too bad, I’m vaguely curious what happened. But it’s usually like one of just a couple things, like maybe they grew apart or someone cheated or whatever. But if you tell Peter broke with his best friend, I’m leaning in, I wanna know what happened there. It can be so many things and there’s so much to mine. So watching these two women work out their differences, not just as former creative partners, but as people who were the most important friends. In their life, to watch how the resentments have built and need to be released in this manner, I was hypnotized.

 

Louis Virtel Agree with that as a description of the movie, but I feel like what we watched was simply not pleasurable. I love the first 15 minutes of this movie when we established that Anne Hathaway is a pop star, and she’s renowned and has had all these eras. Apparently the director was inspired by Taylor Swift, which surprises me. I don’t.

 

Kyle Buchanan I don’t buy that!

 

Louis Virtel Because it’s so much more Lady Gaga.

 

Kyle Buchanan Okay, it’s Lady Gaga down boots like First of all, you can take this from actual history like it feels specifically inspired by Lady Gaga’s falling out with Lorianne Gibson Who used to be her creative director and essentially was you know along for the ride for that very first? Key part of Gaga’s career. I almost wonder if David Lowry the director was was citing Taylor Swift constantly to sort of create a little bit of like uh… Legal distance right that in case lori was like uh… Let me consult a lawyer but it’s so clearly gaga i mean down to the fact that it’s mother i would say mother is just not taylor swift her her you know she has these stage costumes where her face is covered in lace the music is like a little bit more icy remote and dancy i mean just like the entire look is so outrageous like the wigs and the head pieces like you can hear Maura from the Traders clicking buy all as you watch this movie. Like, so yes, the Taylor Swift of it all, I don’t, I don’t believe.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, the pop star she is, like her vibe is sort of like stained glass imagery, you know, like it’s like literally Mary in various versions, you know, various, um, like Renaissance paintings, et cetera, things like that. But I loved the establishment of these two characters and the drama they have together. She’s this huge pop star. Michaela Cole is this downtrodden, uh, uh fashion designer. But other than that, I felt like neither of the characters evolved from that. Like literally the entire movie is Michaela hole. Telling her in a condescending way. Well, I guess you really need a dress Well, i guess we have a long history Uh-huh and like and by the way Michaela Cole great actress and she’s giving it her all in this But she also has nowhere to go and then the movie decides where they should go is a paranormal direction And I do not care have you never been haunted by a piece of fabric not one fucking time Oh, by the, way, which reminds me a little bit a little Bit of it is the movie the red shoes to powell and presperger there’s some of that going on too Didn’t you think half the fucking imagery in this movie was like a 24 AI slop like oh here we are in a fucking suspiria.

 

Kyle Buchanan No I look I understand your complaint and I do feel like.

 

Louis Virtel Me too.

 

Kyle Buchanan Even Even having loved this film there does come a point where you’re like you have absolutely explored this resentment and this friendship I got from every angle. So you better be bringing this in for a landing, but I just thought along the way there were so many Incredible moments and scenes and even if sometimes you’re checking out of a monolog There will be something that makes you check back in whether it’s a line delivery or whether that’s the really amazing sequence of Anne’s pop star perpetually walking onto a stage and then cutting to her walking off and then she walks on and walks off. That was the one fabulous part of the movie.

 

Louis Virtel In the latter half of the movie.

 

Kyle Buchanan There’s a lot of creative visual imagery. David Lowery the director has also done, you know, a ghost story He did the green night. These are films that aren’t going to be for everybody because they’re weird. Yeah

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, my favorite movie of his is Pete’s Dragon because I have a disease where I keep up on Wes Bentley I find him to be the hottest straight man.

 

Kyle Buchanan But I don’t know, it worked for me a little bit more and I think part of that is because I find these two women to be such great actors that they can mine a lot from it. And you know, Michaela Cole, I’m so thrilled to see her doing anything. She’s also in the Christophers, which came out in limited release I think this weekend. Anne Hathaway, this is kicking off an entire year of Anne. And I think it’s a really sort of intriguing first performance to see from her. Did you buy her as this kind of pop star?

 

Louis Virtel Yes, my favorite part of the movie is actually just her performing the pop songs yeah because I mean that’s like it’s definitely hurt this sounds like I’m being Brandi Jackson talking about somebody on American Idol she’s definitely having fun up there but it also actually worked like she looks fabulous she’s a great singer you know.

 

Kyle Buchanan The music is real like it’s you know it’s from Charlie XCX and Jack Antonoff like people who know what they’re doing and I kind of bought her as this sort of glacial remote pop diva who would kind of inspire adoration I bought her a little bit less when we see her in the backstage moments and she’s like a little more like real person kind beseeching because I just don’t believe that woman would be that way yeah I think she would be more sort of curt and officious and like go get that done.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, all business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think honestly this movie would have been better if it just weren’t entirely about their relationship. If there were two more people in her coterie that she could have corresponded with because there wasn’t enough in the back and forth between her, in a costume designer. I’m sorry, it’s just like, I want there to be two-handed movies, but this just wasn’t it.

 

Kyle Buchanan It’s very claustrophobic, and we do see a couple other characters, but Louis, I know that you must have deeped down liked the fact that this is a movie where there are no male speaking roles.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, no, I and I could tell as it was going on it was like that’s what this guy is doing But then I realized this is still a guy who fucking wrote this because I feel like his version of dimensionality is still A very straight male point of view like here’s the she’s a beautiful pop star She has an immaculate image, but she’s so sad like it’s just like it is not that interesting actually.

 

Kyle Buchanan I do feel that at least David Lowry likes pop music more than I think some of the other men who’ve tackled this. Like Brady Corbett with Voxelux where Natalie Portman is playing a pop star.

 

Louis Virtel That movie is really about pop music is a sign of the apocalypse or something.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, you can tell that he condescends to people who actually deign to enjoy pop music like he’s like I would never but here have this slop and a star is born that the the you know the one with B Coop and Lady Gaga, which I love okay. Sorry took me back. I gagged but coupe And gaga You know, I think that is obviously one of the most plausible Portrayals of a pop star because you have an actual pop star doing it Certainly, you know, by the time Ali, her character becomes like a pop star who’s on SNL, you’re supposed to be a little struck in the solar plexus by how shallow her songs have become, no pun intended. However, they’re still bops.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Kyle Buchanan And so even.

 

Louis Virtel Why don’t you do that to me is fucking good.

 

Kyle Buchanan Hair body face.

 

Louis Virtel Yes oh please yes.

 

Kyle Buchanan Put it on! Let’s go to commercial on hair body face um but you know i i know that bradley cooper is wanting us to think well these these songs are not you know as resonant as what she was singing earlier but they’re still fun and he still got like you know diane warren and some other people to to write things that are catchy and hooky so i don’t think he hates pop music to that degree david lawry i think he vibes with this i think like he would want mother mary to my Coachella and I kind of did too.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, by the way, they didn’t have to ask Dianne Warren to contribute. She was already in Gaga’s driveway screaming. It was like a say-anything situation. Yeah, no, I really do like the music in this. I would say it’s not as good as Charlie XCX’s contributions to the Wuthering Heights soundtrack, which is definitely the best thing about that movie.

 

Kyle Buchanan I 100% agree. I am still listening to that album and I almost forget that it comes from a movie at this point. I didn’t remember that the movie even existed the last few weeks until Pedro Almodovar brought it up to take some random strays at Jacob Elordi.

 

Louis Virtel That was also a very interesting quote because it could have been he wasn’t really insulting him, more saying like what if it felt like it could’ve gone both ways like he was kind of calling him both like a really talented person and yet what he expresses in these movies isn’t it was it was it was mixed up quote to me.

 

Kyle Buchanan Almodovar is basically saying is Jacob Elordi good or just tall and I think we’re all trying to figure it out. He was good in Frankenstein but he also like everything else about Frankenstein is so supersized that somebody giving us somewhat smaller, quieter performance is going to be the sort of rock you cling to.

 

Louis Virtel I feel like, though, the Keep It listeners are already bracing themselves for they know what I’m gonna say. I’m sorry, he was that bad bitch in Priscilla. That was a fucking Elvis, I believed, yeah. Oh, as opposed to Austin Butler. I just, I thought that movie totally sucked. I couldn’t stand it. And also, he just doesn’t look like fucking Elvis for one second. I’m Sorry, looks do matter. In every, I said, of life, sorry.

 

Kyle Buchanan No, I mean, I’m still, much like Elmodovar, trying to figure out who Jacob Elordi is. I don’t know. Maybe, maybe he’s the movie version of Addison Rae. Well, okay. Where we’re like, you know. They will end up together, so be careful. I can see it. Yeah. I can them dating, actually. That would be something of a power couple.

 

Louis Virtel I know I know the Queen’s think Rosamund Pike was the best part of Saltburn. No, baby. He was the most part of salt burn.

 

Kyle Buchanan Look, he’s good in Saltburn and he’s well used in it, and honestly, I think he is good in Wuthering Heights, although I share Elmadover’s confusion where you wonder, is he good in this or is the rest of the movie so misguided and bad that you’re just clinging to somebody who seems like a solid presence? Nope. By the way, that’s-

 

Louis Virtel That’s how people win Oscars. I mean, there’s so many movies where it’s like, was that person good? Are we relieved to see them after everybody else is so fucking mid? I’m so sorry, this is the case with Regina King and if Beale Street could talk. Oh man, I can’t go there with you, but enjoy walking onto that plane. And then I’m like, oh my God, the narration in this movie is so bad. Anyway. Oh, I love that movie. Do you really? I really do. Oh my God. The music, which was like. Love that music. The music was cold soup. The music was cold soup if meals cheat could serve soup plantations.

 

Kyle Buchanan But i love when we disagree although i know that we are in total agreement when it comes to and have the way i know yes

 

Louis Virtel We’ve spent it to the end, yes.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, I spent the last decade and a half debating the backlash and the backlash of the backlash about Anne and and I have a new Answer this is what has me fearful because she is about to be seen in many movies You know this not just Mother Mary, but we have Devil Wears product too. We have the Odyssey Yes, we have the one where you and McGregor and and their family get transported to the era of dinosaurs. Yeah so we’re gonna see a lot of Anne and the last time we saw a lot and the public just tore her to shreds.

 

Louis Virtel I feel like when the public tour heard her shreds. It was really about the award circuit and you know what’s interesting about Anne? We think of her as a prestigious actress and of course she has wonderful actress twice Oscar nominated. She has not been on an awards track since then. Like she’s not been nominated for a fucking thing and she’s had some interesting projects you know like Colossal and you know whatever she’s up to. She’s a great actress. The backlash though I think people want to pretend she said she was annoying, that she was too much of a theater kid. I’m sorry. It was the haircut. People did not want to accept her with short hair. And I honestly believe that became the quote unknowing thing about her.

 

Kyle Buchanan They were like we already have white michelle williams.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Kyle Buchanan We can’t make space for this bitch

 

Louis Virtel Right and and who’s who’s like an intense fan of Michelle Williams and yet and yet We’re stuck with Anne Hathaway now who we were big fans of and now you have short hair I’m sorry straight men were behind this the whole time.

 

Kyle Buchanan Do you think, is this gonna curse Emma Stone, who’s still growing out from her Bougogne cut?

 

Louis Virtel Yep. Mm. Yes, it could potentially.

 

Kyle Buchanan Ugh oh watch out, Emma.

 

Louis Virtel But also, something about Emma is so self-deprecating that I feel like it’s hard for people, I can’t picture people mad at her. Namely- When I say people, I mean straight men.

 

Kyle Buchanan I do feel like the theater kid aspect has something to do with it. And I did think about it during those backstage moments in Mother Mary where I’m like, you want to be liked a little too much and I’d rather you have the character not want to like. There’s kind of a fun for song that happens when Anne Hathaway doesn’t want to liked or is at least playing that. And I think that there was just an eagerness to please that you know maybe the general public didn’t know what to do with when they kept getting it it’s like you know there’s there’s a queen on every season drag race that’s giving that energy to RuPaul and Ru simply rejects it you know and i think that and for a time that’s what the public was doing to her.

 

Louis Virtel I would say this happened again recently with Jessie Buckley. But it felt like the comments were coming from people who were not like my friends. Like, I personally didn’t want her to win that Oscar, but I, great actress, no problem with her. Can’t think of one thing she said that was upsetting. And people pretended like, you know, she was the only fixture this award season who really, really won everything. And it’s like, how are you supposed to give that speech 70 times and not be a little repetitive or sound a little, I don’t know about under grateful, but a little prepared?

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, I mean, you know you and I are well versed in hyper analysis of famous women. Yeah, they do But I think that’s what it means. Yeah. Well some people prefer to use those You know like little details that sort of like cudgels Yeah, but I am curious because I do feel like after that initial backlash to Anne Hathaway bit way back when There was maybe in the BuzzFeed era this sort of idea of we were too harsh on Anne Hathaway so have we learned our lesson from that because we are back in a very harsh time on social media yeah you know what people pick on all sorts of random things you know uh… So i don’t know like have we learn our lesson or are we in for round two of people picking on Anne Hathaway.

 

Louis Virtel Well i think it all depends on the devil wears Prada 2. Which by the way like any uninspired sequel I’ve not seen the movie I know nothing about it if it is uninspired could just slip into the ether and we totally forget about it and it’s not the Anne Hathaway you know press crush of our dreams but at the same time if it’s amazing I think it can only endear us to her because that’s exactly what I think even detractors want from Anne Hathaway which is to be fun romcom.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, and also at the same time.

 

Louis Virtel Have you seen it?

 

Kyle Buchanan No, I’m seeing it next week.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, okay, got it.

 

Kyle Buchanan I remember that during the first Devil Wears Prada press run, Meryl was talking about how the movie was so fun to shoot because something about Anne’s character made her so fun pick on, you know, on screen, that she’d have this like bright, sprightly energy and Meryle loved to pick at it. And I actually thought about that when I was watching Mother Mary because so much of the movie is Michaela Cole hurling insults at Anne Hathaway who must take it. And I, you know, I’m not saying that Anne should like, you know, the flock herself for our sins in every project. But if there’s multiple projects where people are just insulting poor old Anne Hathaway and she’s like, you know the eyes are getting wider, but she’s plucky and determined to withstand it anyway. Maybe that is actually the mode where people want to see her.

 

Louis Virtel And I hope this means she gets enough to do in the Double Wars product, because in Mother Mary, she was stuck between a sniffle and a sob the entire film, like kind of Les Mis style, close up on her face, like looking off, well, Michaela like reads her to filth.

 

Kyle Buchanan And give her some credit, she had to play that role for two hours with wet hair.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Oh my God. It’s the wettest movie. By the way, the drama of this movie is no one will turn on a light. We are in a warehouse and it’s dark and it is like IKEA size. Why does she live there? Why does Michaela Cole live in this like weird like Passion of the Christ barn? To be fair, it’s Europe and no one knows how to turn on a light there. Yeah. It is the fucking darkest movie. What would you say is your favorite Anne Hathaway project?

 

Kyle Buchanan Ooh, what is my favorite Anne Hathaway project?

 

Louis Virtel I know what I’m going to say.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, I’ve talked about this on the show before, but I really think that Anne is the most underrated person in Brokeback Mountain.

 

Louis Virtel Uh-huh, yes. First of all the outfits, second of all the hair, third of all holding a phone like this.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yes. And she’s so subtle at the end while almost almost almost being maximal. I love that thing where you can be subtle within like a really big gesture and she’s wearing the most outrageous wigs again in that movie and she managed to find something that feels very small and the sort of gap between big and small can be really thrilling. As far as lead performances of Anne’s Let’s go. Do you have one?

 

Louis Virtel I mean, I think I would have to say Rachel getting married, which seems so cliched and because she got the best actress nomination for it. And also, I wanna say that she triumphs in that movie over the most obvious choice for a haircut for that character. It’s as it, it’s like she has like hair like she’s been rained on and it’s like a flat sheet looks like privacy glass and yet still jagged in a 90s alternative way. Like you can tell she’s the troubled character. It’s exactly the hair that like Jenniferr Jason Lee would have in a 90s movie.

 

Kyle Buchanan You know, she’s got a lot going on this year, as we just said, but Anne was actually also supposed to be the female lead of Beef Season 2. Wow. It was going to be her and Jake Gyllenhaal as the older couple. Oh! They were the ones originally attached.

 

Louis Virtel More of the other drugs from Love and Other Drugs. Exactly. Yes, and broke back also. So you’re saying she was gonna play the Carey Mulligan character. I’m excited to watch that. Carey Mulligan is another one of those people like Michelle Williams where there are movies I love her in and yet I guess I’m not really an intense fan, I can’t really answer why.

 

Kyle Buchanan I thought you were gonna blame the pixie cut again.

 

Louis Virtel Oh no she looks fantastic i love an education i love that movie.

 

Kyle Buchanan When carrie mulligan has long hair in a movie i’m like god she’s a talent What a stretch!

 

Louis Virtel We call this Jennifer Connelly syndrome. Long, pretty hair, I meant. Anyway, Mother Mary not for, you would say, you would give it a thumbs up though.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yes, but in that conditional way where it has to be recommended to the right person. My mom is not gonna like this movie.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I’m gonna go ahead and play it safe and say I’m I don’t recommend it to anybody that the songs are great and Looks fabulous and Michaela’s good and gives give it nothing to do.

 

Kyle Buchanan Look, if you like those David Lowery movies that we named and you like pop stars and if you’re one of those people who defends Vox Lux, this is a better version of that I think.

 

Louis Virtel So violently angry, like using just the school shooting, which is very vivid, as this jumping off point for this dour movie about pop music, like what’s the takeaway? Yeah, upsetting. I will give David Lowery credit, his movies have nothing to do with each other. Like what, you’re the Ain’t Them Bodies Saints guy and then you’re also this guy and then Pete’s dragon? It’s like Mike Nichols, like just like you’re interested in everything, I guess.

 

Kyle Buchanan Yeah, and I like when a straight man gets a little fruity with it, you know, makes like a movie about women where they’re just kind of like mean and gossipy and it’s not about like getting them naked all the time.

 

Louis Virtel No, it’s like upsetting that David Fincher directed the Vogue and Express Yourself videos. Like, how did he do that using heterosexuality? David Finch made me gay, and is allegedly straight. I don’t like it, and I love that movie, The Killer, with Michael Spassbender and Tilda Swinton.

 

Kyle Buchanan That’s how you know that Lewis is gay if you had any doubt that he led with Tilda Swinton being the

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah, right. Oh, yeah, and Michael Fassbender whatever whatever. All right. What did you think of Mother Mary? Or did you thank anything at all? I was so thrilled to get out of the theater, but I love going to Burbank We’ll be right back with the GOAT, Ellen Burstyn.

 

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel It is an honor to welcome my next guest, who is a pillar of Hollywood. She is, get ready, a Tony, Golden Globe, Emmy, and Academy Award winning actress whose career spans decades of countless iconic roles on stage and screen, including films such as The Exorcist, Ellis Doesn’t Live Here Anymore, Same Time Next Year, Requiem for a Dream, and The Ultimate Resurrection, and so much more. Her new book, Poetry Says It Better, Poems to Help You Wake Up, explores the power and beauty of her favorite poetry. Please welcome the great the almighty the heroic Ellen Burstyn.

 

Ellen Burstyn Hardly, but okay. I’ll accept it.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, good. It’s been given, unfortunately. It can’t be taken back. Alan, this book is, first of all, just so unusual and yet also so straightforward. It’s you talking about your favorite poems. You put the poems in the book for us to read. How did you come to even conceive of putting this together?

 

Ellen Burstyn It happened because I was working out with my trainer at the time and I had the impulse to recite a poem to her. And I said, do you read poetry? And she went, no, like that. Oh, so I didn’t recite the poem to her. Then we went upstairs where she gave me a massage. And I read her a Mary Oliver poem. And she said, oh, well that’s not sappy. I thought, sappy? Wow, that’s what she thinks in poetry. And that sort of stayed in my head, like how many people are there who aren’t exposed to the joy of poetry like I have been most of my life? And then my agent… Said to me, you’re a poetry lover, aren’t you? And I said, yes. And he said, why don’t you write a book about poetry? Well, I’d already written one, poetry and my photographs, which wasn’t really the right idea. But when he said that, I said you know what? I want to write a a book about poetry for people who don’t know poetry. My friends, most of them, my close friends are poetry lovers. But she made me realize that some people just don’t know about poetry. So I decided to write the book for them.

 

Louis Virtel And it’s such a fascinating and a breeze of a read. I mean, like really the poem’s just like, you take in the message and you move right along and it also tells us a lot of biographical information about you too. I think something else that’s fascinating about you is you like to memorize poems. Like you just have the poems on you at all times. And then also physically, like you carry around poetry with you in these poetry packets as they’re described here. Well, what is the joy of, oh, here’s one right in front of us.

 

Ellen Burstyn That’s my poetry pack and it’s a little overstuffed now so I can’t get it open so easily. And then I keep all the poems inside, see.

 

Louis Virtel Look at these are color-coded seemingly

 

Ellen Burstyn Yes, so the index tells me what color each poem is, so I can just look for the color.

 

Louis Virtel What I’m watching right now, you can watch us on YouTube, obviously, but if you’re listening to us right now what I just saw was shocking. Ellen just had an entire card catalog of poems and whipped them out in what looked like a billfold. I just want to be clear that that’s what just happened. But what is the value of memorizing poems? It seems like, first of all, even among actors, you have a fabulous memory.

 

Ellen Burstyn Well, I did. I wouldn’t claim to have a feminist Mittenberry anymore, not at 93.

 

Louis Virtel No

 

Ellen Burstyn One doesn’t have a fabulous memory then.

 

Louis Virtel But what is the pleasure of just, you know, memorizing poetry?

 

Ellen Burstyn Because then I carry it with me at all times and, you know, I walk in the park a lot and very often I will see something in the in the Park and it’ll just spark a line from a poem and then I recite the poem to myself and it’s It’s a deep pleasure that I carry inside me

 

Louis Virtel Do you think this is an unusual hobby to have among actors? Do you know other actors who also value poetry as much as you do?

 

Ellen Burstyn I’m not sure, I have, my close friends are all poetry lovers. And I remember one time being in the, I saw the great English actor, John Gilgud, in a play in London and I went backstage and I was in his dressing room and we got into a conversation about memory. And he said, well, memory is a muscle that must be exercised every day. Said. I, if I’m, he said I memorize something every day. If I’m not working on a role, I memorize a poem. And then he added, or at the very least, a column of newspaper print. And so there’s somebody who is memorizing poems. I don’t know how many do. I have been surprised a little bit to learn that some of my best friends are deep poetry lovers that I didn’t know. I mean, since I’ve written the book, I’ve found out, oh, I didn’t t know you were a poetry lover. So it’s not so unusual.

 

Louis Virtel First of all, your John Gielgud impression was spot on. I didn’t know you had that in you. That was lovely, first of all. I’m gonna say, this also kind of harkens back to a time when, you know, actors, these classically stage, as classical stage actors were like English majors. You know, but it feels like it’s almost from another era, just like people who would, you know know Shakespeare off the top of their head and, you now, be as involved in discussing the text as they are acting it.

 

Ellen Burstyn Well, I must say, it’s very possible to think of me as from another era. At this age, I could be thought of that way.

 

Louis Virtel But also you have such a long history of teaching acting. And I feel like this book dovetails with your love of teaching because you really come away from this book feeling like you learned something. And I was wondering if you could just talk about getting into teaching acting as you are obviously part of the very hallowed actor studio and were taught under Lee Strasberg, long thought to be the greatest acting teacher of the 20th century.

 

Ellen Burstyn He was the greatest acting teacher in the 20th century. I have no doubt about that. And those of us who were lucky enough. Be exposed to him and what he knew and how he could. Transmitted, we’re changed. Our lives were changed. There’s the before Lee Strasburg and the after Lee Strosburg. So I felt he started me teaching. He’s the one that asked me to moderate the sessions. And at the Actors Studio we have acting sessions on Tuesday and Friday. So after I won an Oscar, he asked me start. Taking the Tuesday sessions and moderating those while he did Friday’s and then when he died I Took over the Friday’s also his his teaching was so Life-changing to me and so important. I Wouldn’t feel right about myself if I didn’t try and share it as best I could That’s my kind of giving back for all I receive from him.

 

Louis Virtel Are there any moments in your acting past that you’re surprised you referenced as a teacher a lot? That, you know, when you’re moderating these sessions, you know you come back to a specific moment on set of a movie or on set of a play again and again and that helps new actors.

 

Ellen Burstyn But I don’t know about again and again and then, but I do, when I’m looking at an actor’s work, sometime remember a moment where something occurred to me that is helpful for the actor to be exposed to also. You know, teaching, I’m sure all teachers will agree, it’s a, inspiration is very much a part of it, you know, in the moment. Finding just the right approach to speak to a particular person, you know? Because not everybody can hear the same, with the same openness, let’s say. Need to be spoken to differently.

 

Louis Virtel Are there any particular movie scenes in history or movies you watch that fill you with particular pride in the actor’s studio? I mean, like so many of like the greatest movies are filled with alumni of this studio. I was just watching a scene from In the Heat of the Night with Sidney Poitier and Lee Grant, which is one of the great acting scenes in that movie, obviously a best picture winner. And you can just see that these are some trained professionals, like working it, like the emotions are right, so palpable. They could only be professionals. I was wondering if there are any movies like that that you watch and think that’s definitely the actor’s studio at work.

 

Ellen Burstyn Almost everything Marlon Brando ever did. And of course his teacher wasn’t so much Lee Strasburg as Stella Adler, but the work is similar. They came from the same source, the group theater. So Brando’s acting, I think, is a perfect example of the work I was schooled in, called method acting. And what I’ve been seeing in the newspaper, where people are called method actors, and they’re just not, drives me nuts. Because, you know, I say if what they’re saying is method acting, That it’s gotta be real, and therefore they go out and do something absurd that’s real, how does anybody ever play Medea? Their children would be in jeopardy, you know? It’s the phrase of Lee Strasburg’s that I love that describes what method acting is, is training the senses to respond to imaginary stimuli. So it’s training the senses to believe. What the imaginary story is, is true, having the senses react. But it’s not going out and doing the same thing that the character does, for God’s sakes. So there’s a lot of misinformation about method acting.

 

Louis Virtel Well, the interesting thing about it is, so it makes you be truthful, as in find reality, and yet also it feels like you have to have a certain amount of vulnerability as in like give something up of yourself to make it work. And so looking back at your movies, which by the way, the disparate roles, like it’s crazy your range as an actor. I was wondering if there are any roles in particular for you that feel vulnerable in retrospect, that teach the audience something about you, because I could just as well be seeing someone who’s totally not like you or someone who is totally like you when I’m watching an Ellen Burstyn movie.

 

Ellen Burstyn Well, I would say that Alice doesn’t live here anymore. It’s very close to me. I mean, I have a son and the relationship of Alice and her son is really a reflection of my relationship with my son. That’s the one that is most like me. Requiem for a dream probably is the one least like me.

 

Louis Virtel Thank God.

 

Ellen Burstyn Absolutely. Yes, that poor soul. She had a rough way to go.

 

Louis Virtel I imagine that movie took a lot of preparation, because I mean, some of the scenes in that movie are, namely your scenes, but also many others, are so bracing, as in to bring yourself to give that level of pain on the screen. I don’t know what you’re pulling from, but I imagine it took some time.

 

Ellen Burstyn You know, that kind of role, which is so different from who the actor is. I don’t know, it’s like, for no reason that I can give you, the image that just came to mind was diving into the ocean to find a lost wedding ring. That’s the image. It just came into mind when I started to say what it was like. It’s that deep and mysterious. Involves. Deep diving, that’s all I can say, deep diving. That you find the ring.

 

Louis Virtel I also want to say that you recently gave a performance I thought was so fabulous in Pieces of a Woman with Vanessa Kirby. I just saw this scene pop up, I believe on the Academy’s Instagram or something, but you were working with her. This is a movie about a woman who loses her child after an incredible first scene of this movie. Basically, the rest of the movie is her navigating what she’s doing with her life. But you guys have this fight and you play her mother. And it is just as urgent as any other scene you’ve done in your career. I was wondering what it was like filming that because Vanessa is also such a powerhouse in that scene. It’s so awesome seeing this two-handed scene where both people are so powerful.

 

Ellen Burstyn Well, you know, when you work with an actor who’s powerful, it’s like, okay, I don’t know if this is an accurate description, but what came to mind was a chess player’s game being upped by playing with an equally proficient chess player. So, because the reality becomes more Sometimes you’re working with someone and they respond in a way and you go oh no honey that doesn’t doesn’t seem real to me. But with Vanessa you’re just in it. You know you’re in the in the story in those characters and you’re playing together. You’re really playing together She’s a wonderful actress and it was just great working with her.

 

Louis Virtel I also have to bring up the movie Resurrection, which is, you know, now this diamond in the rough of your career, but it was a fabulous Oscar nomination at the time. One of the few paranormal movies that is also extremely emotional, it’s this woman who survives this near-death moment, she’s actually dead for a second, and then comes back and finds she has healing powers. Now, if I am an actor reading that script, I realize the power of this movie hinges on the audience believing I have actual powers, which people don’t. So in other words, the movie only works if you work. Taking on a script like that, are you really intimidated or do you just know, you know what, I’m gonna will it into being and people will believe it.

 

Ellen Burstyn First of all, people do have healing powers. And I’ll give you an example. I had a healer on set with me every day, guiding me. And one day we were in the makeup room in the morning and the makeup man said to me, I’m gonna do your makeup, then I have to leave and somebody else is gonna have to cover for me on the set. I’ve got a horrendous toothache, and I’ve got to get to a dentist. I’m in terrible pain. And my healer friend was standing there. She said, it’s not your tooth. It’s your ear. He said, what? She said you have an ear infection. I can help you with that. And she put her hands back here at his ear. And then I don’t know, five minutes maybe, I’m not sure. I just felt it drop. She said, yeah, you’ll be okay now. Okay, so the thing is that people can do that. And as a matter of fact, the way that picture came about is somebody sent me a script, the producers, I was in Greece at the time, sent me script about a woman who goes to Jerusalem and her hands start bleeding and she finds that she’s… The reincarnated Jesus, you know. And I turned it down. And they called me and said, why are you turning it down? We want you to do it. And I said, because there are actual people who can heal and you’re just, you’re making up a story that doesn’t make any sense. So I then talked to them. I said why don’t you tell a story about a woman who’s just a normal woman who maybe has, and I roughed in. The story and they said, okay, they called me back and said, we like your script better than our script. Can we start over with the new writer and write your script? And I said, yes. So that’s what they did. Now, unfortunately, when the studio released the movie, they released it as a science fiction film. That’s what, they’re still calling it, which absolutely kills it, you know, because it’s not a very good science fiction film. As a film about a very rare talent that some people have, then it’s an interesting story. So unfortunately, although I was nominated for an Oscar, the studio had no belief in the film and they pretty much… It opened on 57th Street, New York, with no ad in the paper. So it was…

 

Louis Virtel I will say though, there’s just no movie like it. Like, if you want to watch a movie like that, you can only watch Resurrection. Like, it’s its own genre, basically.

 

Ellen Burstyn I always say when somebody tells me their favorite movie of mine is Resurrection, I always say, then I know you’re a very special person.

 

Louis Virtel Okay well best compliment of my day for sure. My last question for you is obviously you love stage acting and I was wondering if you had seen much stage acting recently that had resonated with you.

 

Ellen Burstyn Becky Shaw. It’s a wonderful play. It’s open right now. My granddaughter is part of the stage management crew. She’s a second assistant stage manager. Becky Shaw, it’s a wonder, wonderful play, writing, acting, sets, everything.

 

Louis Virtel Classic. Fabulous. Ellen, thank you so much for talking to me today. I love the book. And by the way, your memoir from the 2000s is also fabulous. So I’m just a big fan of your writing in general.

 

Ellen Burstyn Thank you so much, I love talking to you.

 

Louis Virtel What a pleasure. I will keep it with me. Thank you so much

 

Ellen Burstyn Okay, bye-bye.

 

Louis Virtel [AD]

 

Louis Virtel And we’re back with the Keep It portion of the show, Keep It. Kyle, what are you saying keep it to this week?

 

Kyle Buchanan Okay, so mine’s a journey.

 

Louis Virtel Okay.

 

Kyle Buchanan Are we prepared?

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Kyle Buchanan Because I want to generally refute something before going in for the specialized kill.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, all right.

 

Kyle Buchanan And the thing I’m initially gonna refute, and don’t worry, I will eventually say keep it, is the idea that Coachella crowds don’t dance. Now this is something that we see like clockwork every year on social media. People are always posting clips of like, well, I don’t see anybody dancing to that. Like, must suck over there. And I feel like, first of all, clips of people dancing are not going to go viral. The reason that these clips are going viral, like if there’s an occasional, I don’t know, like people aren’t dancing to Like A Virgin, is because people are at home and they don’t want to have gone to Coachella. Like they don’t want to be confronted with something that might have been really fun. So they wanna say, oh yeah, it sucks. Influencers, like it’s boring. The people there aren’t any fun. Like. It’s almost like a cousin to FOMO, it’s NOMO. I didn’t want to go anyway, and I don’t want you to have fun if you did go. But my experience of Coachella is very different. I actually felt like this was the danciest Coachella I’ve ever been to. Like, people were getting their life at Slater, at Nina Jorachi, there were mosh pits happening around me at Geese. I donno, I was like really thrilled, and I do think that if you know, like if you sort of uh… Head back from those v i p influencer parts of the crowd you are going to see tons of dancing and you might not hear that crowd noise on the stream but that’s because you’re in a big field so the crowd noise is not going to be mike the same way that’s that can we fight the real enemy can we issue a keep it that the slim subsection of people who don’t dance but make it terrible for all of us which are the people who get there early for the headliner, and sit down. What the fuck? So this happens at every music festival. Real Airbnb squatter shit. Yeah, it’s not specific just to Coachella, but I definitely have experienced this many times at Coachella. You know, like kudos to the Beliebers who got there early, who made it to the barricades, but you have to get up during the strokes. I don’t want to dance onto your hand during hard to explain. And also part of the fun of being at a music festival is experiencing artists that you’re not there for. You know, I mean, also part of the price of the music festival is experiencing other artists. So I don’t care if it’s not like a one-to-one match with who you’re there to see and who’s on the undercard. Like, you know, if you’re there to See Skrillex, fantastic. But you have to get up and confusedly shake ass to Bjork. Like it’s just part of the agreement that you’re making as a good festival goer.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I would also say that part of the agreement is you’re also there to be in the company of other people. Right. So you’re bringing a vibe. Everybody is bringing a vibes. Like the whole point of dressing up is that you’re bring something to this festival. It’s not just that you are a passive zoom viewer, you know, you’re there in person. So to be around people who are not participating in your joy or her selectively doling it out feels so annoying.

 

Kyle Buchanan I know that music festivals can be exhausting and it’s a marathon, but you know, sit down in between the sets. Do not sit down during, get up and sway if you have to. And this goes double for people who bring big fucking backpacks.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I was just thinking, by the way, though, so Justin Bieber, not necessarily a dancey set, you know, some of the music. I feel like the only way you can really ideally experience Justin Bieber is if you’re a straight man with your arms around your straight girlfriend, like this, and you wanna sway a little.

 

Kyle Buchanan Uh-huh.

 

Louis Virtel That’s it, though.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, look, I love Swag, his most recent album, which was the bulk of the Justin Bieber set.

 

Louis Virtel I actually like that album, too. I do, too.

 

Kyle Buchanan But is it bouncy dance pop? No, it’s not. And when he started playing his hits off of YouTube, people were actually dancing. I did see like people criticizing the crowd for not dancing to Like A Virgin, but Sabrina and Madonna were not dancing to that either. They were standing there and they were walking around. And that’s fine. People had their phones out. Yes, because it’s like famous Madonna singing like a virgin with Sabrina. I was a little bit that they.

 

Louis Virtel They were seemingly so mad about that, about like, it’s like, guys, if Madonna’s there, I mean, I’m sorry, it like Jesus Christ is there. What are you supposed to do? Like, I will get a picture of Jesus Christ on my-.

 

Kyle Buchanan When people are like, oh, I can’t believe people have their phones out, that just tells me that you have not been to a concert in the last 10 years. Now look, I would much rather people did not take their phones, but here’s what happens when a big hit gets played or somebody comes out, people will take their phone out, they will record the first 20 seconds of that song and then typically put them away and like dance and have fun. But if you’re looking at that first 20 second, you are going to see a sea of That’s just how it is. And I actually don’t mind it as much with Coachella because even though they do that live stream, they strike that from the record. It is no longer like found after a week. So you will eventually only be able to rely on, you know, like little contraband streams or videos, but mostly what videos people took. So, you know it’s adding to the historical record.

 

Louis Virtel Additional keep it to whoever stole Madonna’s costume afterwards. She has lost the outfit She was wearing at Coachella, which is so I mean, I would like to see her be Medeval backstage by whoever like took this from her. How was that even possible?

 

Kyle Buchanan I know you’re going to post you wearing that stolen bustier to close friends, I know it. To close friends, I know it.

 

Louis Virtel A Lavender Boustier, you’ve all wanted it, you’re gonna get it. My Keep It actually dovetails with that Madonna discussion. Keep it to the movie Michael, which we’re about to get. I just saw on my phone, the Rotten Tomatoes score, baby, it’s a 27%. We put all this money into this dubious ass life story, which by the way. You still hear Michael Jackson, you know, wherever you go all the time, the supermarket, wherever. Gas station. Yes, and you know it’s this awkward thing of we’ve never really done the full reckoning on what we basically know about Michael Jackson. And in this movie, which stars a relative of his, Jafar Jackson, we are almost certainly getting an anesthetized version of events. And the fact is, Even though I honestly am a defender of music biopics, I will see most of them. And in fact, if I have to review it for this very podcast to save some people going out, honey, I’m gonna do it. We have nothing left to learn about Michael Jackson. In fact, we had to do the research ourselves. I don’t need this movie to lay on a patina of prestige he no longer merits, you know? And by the way, I just wanna say I work at Hollywood Boulevard where I look out the window and see people toasting Michael Jackson every single day. So we are not lacking for interest in him. And I’m sure, you we have the musical on Broadway, for example, there are plenty of tributes to him still going on, whatever. We still have not done the full. Purge of that, we just don’t need this anymore. It is gross to be toasting Michael Jackson.

 

Kyle Buchanan Well, yes, for all the obvious reasons, but then also, you know, if it is a movie that is essentially sanctioned and shepherded by his estate in order to get the catalog of songs, you’re not going to get The Warts and All portrayal. The funny thing is they sort of tried to be a little warts and all. They were actually alluding to and portraying elements of, you now, the lawsuit and accusations against Michael Jackson. I believe I heard that the framing device had to do with that. They had to strip all those out because the estate had not properly communicated that those things. Could not be portrayed in a movie without violating a settlement agreement so they had to uh… Uh… Sort of take into account these really lengthy costly reshoots to strip the movie of that and try to prop it up with something else.

 

Louis Virtel Right no, the Michael Jackson estate is like its own Scientology like there’s like a whole lore there that will never understand. It’s very strange.

 

Kyle Buchanan But at the same time, you know, when you do say, well, we know everything about Michael Jackson, I was thinking when I talked about Madonna earlier, what does a 21 year old know about Madonna? These music biopics, these Jukebox musicals, you know we might say, you we know plenty already, but they are an effective way of sort of reintroducing these legacy artists to younger generations that don’t know them. You know, I know that we all know the song, Bohemian Rhapsody when it comes on. But I don’t know, did young people really know Queen and Freddie Mercury in the way that they do after that hit movie? And I think that if Madonna had actually ever gotten her biopic off the ground like she wanted to, I think would have given people a jolt where maybe they would have danced a little more to Like a Virgin.

 

Louis Virtel That’s our like a prayer.

 

Kyle Buchanan Like a prayer

 

Louis Virtel Yes, no, and I want to say by the way like when Mamma Mia came out I don’t know that I actually had owned ABBA gold yet I’m saying there’s a version of this I can you know deal with or whatever But ABBA is like the least problematic band of all time as far as this goes so like that’s like I’m totally okay with that. This is just a Extremely dicey enterprise like I don’t even like how Janet has dealt with Michael’s legacy like there’s like lot There’s lots of angles on this. I just don’t like but apparently the movie is also just bad So if you want to pass it up, it won’t be that hard.

 

Kyle Buchanan Also, Janet apparently not really in this movie.

 

Louis Virtel Interesting. Dubious what’s going on? Yeah, who’s playing? Who’s playing Quincy Jones? It’s not Coleman Domingo.

 

Kyle Buchanan No, Coleman Domingo is playing his dad. Right, yeah. I don’t know, is Quincy Jones like a major figure in the movie?

 

Louis Virtel You would ugh fucking think.

 

Kyle Buchanan You know who’s randomly in this movie, Mike Myers.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, my God. Doing what? Oh, Kendrick Sampson plays Quincy Jones. Oh, that’s a little intriguing. Anyway, I won’t be seeing it, or I will be, and you’ll be hearing all about it, nevermind. Kyle, thank you so much for joining me once again.

 

Kyle Buchanan Always.

 

Louis Virtel Let’s say I’m on social media and I want something to do. I’m gonna look up Kyle Buchanan. Where would you be?

 

Kyle Buchanan I am on Twitter slash X as Kyle Buchanan, and you can also find my byline on the New York Times. You can click on that byline and read a whole bunch of articles from me. I am about to go to the Cannes Film Festival in the next few weeks, so I will be giving you all the details from the French Riviera while I’m there. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel I am so psyched to read all about it. I read everything you write. Everything you write.

 

Thank you. That’s amazing. Appreciate that.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you to Kyle for being here, thank you to the glorious Ellen Burston for being here. We’ll be back next week with an all new episode of Keep It. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Keep It is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Bill McGrath, and our executive producers are Louis Virtel, Ira Madison III, and Kendra James. Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, Rachel Gaewski, and Jay Banks. Thank you to David Toles and Charlotte Landes for production support every week. Our head of production is Matt DeGroot. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.