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Jane Coaston: It’s Tuesday, February 10th, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What A Day, the show that wants to celebrate DinoCon, the UK’s largest paleontology conference, for banning every scientist, researcher, and author who exchanged emails with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. DinoCon is taking tougher action on Epstein’s connections than the United States government. Roar! [music break] On today’s show, Vice President J.D. Vance boldly goes where no vice president has gone before, Armenia. And is ICE really arresting the worst of the worst? A new report from CBS News confirms what we kind of already knew. But let’s go back to the Epstein files. Convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell was supposed to virtually testify before the House Oversight Committee on Monday. But she didn’t testify. Instead, she invoked her Fifth Amendment right, the one that lets you refuse to and incriminate yourself on the stand. In a written statement, her lawyer said that Maxwell would only speak if she received clemency for her crimes, an act of mercy that can only be granted by the president. Maxwell’s attorney added, quote, “Only she can provide the complete account. Some may not like what they hear, but the truth matters.” Meaning, she will only give you the truth once she’s granted clemency. For example, a pardon for sex trafficking. Seems like she really feels bad about what she did. Getting justice or even just some answers for survivors is starting to feel impossible in the United States. But in the United Kingdom, the Epstein files might bring down the British government. It all goes back to Epstein’s relationship with a man named Peter Mandelson, formerly the UK’s ambassador to the United states. Last week, Prime Minister Keir Starmer admitted that he knew about Mandelson’s ties to Epstein when he appointed him to the position in 2024, but said that Mandelson had lied to him about the extent of his relationship with Epstein. On Thursday, Starmer apologized to Epstein’s victims for appointing Mandelson and for what they had endured. 

[clip of Prime Minister Keir Starmer] I am sorry. Sorry for what was done to you. Sorry that so many people with power failed you. Sorry for having believed Mandelson’s lies and appointed him. 

Jane Coaston: But he said that he would not resign from office. So for more on how the United Kingdom is reckoning with Epstein, I spoke to Coco Kahn, co-host of Crooked Media’s Pod Save the UK. Coco, welcome to What A Day. 

Coco Khan: Hello. Thanks for having me, another fresh day in hell, I hear. 

Jane Coaston: What a delight we are all enjoying. Now, it’s been almost eight years since Jeffrey Epstein became a horrifying household name in the US. But what has the public and political reaction been like in the UK? Has Epstein been as big a story across the pond as it is here? 

Coco Khan: I don’t think so. I think for a long time, the people who knew about the Jeffrey Epstein story, it was one for the heads. Let’s just say that it was for the people that were very much online and very much interested in politics, particularly American politics. It kind of blew into the UK public consciousness after Prince Andrew was tied up in it. But even then, I think there was a sense amongst the public that it was some strange anomaly. It was something that was going on in America that involved Americans and Donald Trump. And that’s all a bit weird over there anyway, even with Prince Andrew, probably there was certainly a lot of us, I think, who are a bit more young and have our doubts about the monarchy that are like, well, he was a bit strange, this was a bit of a scandal and you just sort of file it away. But in the last week, something has changed and now what’s brewing is this story about Peter Mandelson. So Peter Mandelson is a stalwart of the Labor Party who are of course the current government. He was US ambassador for a while and everybody knew that he had a relationship to Epstein that had been realized some while ago, but what people didn’t realize was how close it was, not least because he actively tried to minimize it. So right now, everybody knows about the Epstein files. Everybody has the name Peter Madelson on their lips and people are currently talking about whether the prime minister will resign. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah, it’s interesting because Keir Starmer is not in the Epstein files, which–

Coco Khan: No. 

Jane Coaston: You know, what a titan of morality. But he appointed Mandelson even though he knew he had a connection to Epstein. So what do we know about what went into his appointment? How did he get the job in the first place?

Coco Khan: Well, this is quite sad actually, but apparently, insiders are saying the reason he got this job and became this close confidant of Starmer and the Starmer project was because he showed up. You know you have to imagine that Keir Starmer won a resounding victory, but not because of his great vision, just because everyone was sick of the conservatives. And actually, a lot of us have been sitting here thinking, well, the real Slim Shady or the real Keir Starrmer, God, I’m really showing my age now, aren’t I? Well, the really Keir Starmer–

Jane Coaston: No no I was right there with you, thank you. 

Coco Khan: Okay. Okay. Yep.

Jane Coaston: This is a millennial podcast for millenials. 

Coco Khan: Okay, okay!

Jane Coaston: We are here. 

Coco Khan: That’s good to know. Um. People have been wondering who Keir Starmer is. When will it show up? When will his vision show up. The fact of the matter is, is Mandelson sidled up to him and said, look, I’m very well respected. I was instrumental in the Blair government. People still harp on about the Blair government because it was the greatest victory for the Labor Party after a really long time with the Conservatives and he kind of fell for it. What he brought, Mandelson, was experience. And also this reputation, he had a nickname, the Prince of Darkness of being a strategic maverick. Obviously now that nickname the prince of darkness has some very unpleasant undertones to it. But the fact is [?]–

Jane Coaston: No, I heard Prince of Darkness, and I’m like unless you’re Ozzy Osbourne, that’s not good at all. 

Coco Khan: No, no. Poor Ozzy Osbourne. Another man whose reputation has been besmirched in all of this who did nothing wrong. But yeah, so Starmer had a vacancy, I think. He had a vacancy for a schemer and this man filled it. And actually, perhaps if he had his own ideology and his own belief system, maybe this wouldn’t have happened. 

Jane Coaston: Starmer actually fired Mandelson back in September after–

Coco Khan: Yep. 

Jane Coaston: –learning he was closer to Epstein than he let on because he sent Epstein a letter about how he was his, quote, “best pal,” which was featured in Epstein’s 50th birthday book, a book made in hell. But people are still, as you’ve mentioned, calling on Starmer to resign. Is this really about Mandelson or is this just because people are tired of Keir Starmer? 

Coco Khan: Well, look, I mean, Keir Starmer is enormously unpopular, seriously unpopular. So I guess you could say it was the straw that broke the camel’s back. But nonetheless, so in this latest drop, not only is there a horrible picture of Peter Mandelson in his pants. I mean I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not in my pants with anyone, unless I know them quite well. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah. And uh for those people watching and listening who have not spent years of their life watching Brit Box programs, when you say pants, you mean underwear. 

Coco Khan: That is correct. Yes. So I think there was this strong visual image that he had been lying about how close he was. I think we all knew that he had been lying, hence his you know first sacking. But also there was this story, these emails that had come out that had said that Peter Mandelson at a time of the global financial crisis, when the UK was really on its knees, was essentially giving insider information to Epstein, which would of course be very valuable for a man in his position. So that’s been the nature of the accusation, which you know is tantamount to something very, very, very serious. So I think that it is fair that Starmer has his criticism, but he was already unpopular, and this is the straw to break the camel’s back. 

Jane Coaston: So, the Prime Minister might lose his job. 

Coco Khan: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: Because he appointed the wrong person. By comparison, here in the U.S., Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick reportedly visited Epstein Island with his family in 2012, after claiming in 2005 that he thought Epstein was disgusting and never wanted to see him again. And only a few Democrats are calling for his resignation. More should be. Because ew. Why do you think this is getting so much attention in the UK now, when it feels like American politicians and businessmen, yeah, we’re talking about it a lot. But people are barely getting what seems to me to be a slap on the wrist.

Coco Khan: I mean, I think it’s a really good point, and I think it is a unique problem to the Labor Party. If this was happening in the Conservatives, I do wonder if there would be quite as much [?], but that is the issue of being a progressive. You are always held to a higher standard and you should be. I think everyone should be held to those same standards, but it doesn’t change the fact, particularly in this country where you’ve got a kind of right leaning press. That anyone that is associated with labor does need to be held to a higher standard. Starmer would have known that anyway, so you could even just say this was like a rookie mistake or a naive mistake. I think also there is a sense that, you know, and I mean this in the kindest way, British people enjoy thinking we’re not like the Americans. We enjoy it. We’re a very small, rainy nation with no economic power and really nothing going on except for Great British Bake Off and maybe Adele. 

Jane Coaston: And Midsomer Murders. 

Coco Khan: Oh well–

Jane Coaston: And Midsomer Murders. 

Coco Khan Well that is nice that you watch that. That is that is very nice.

Jane Coaston: You will always have Midsomer Murders. 

Coco Khan: Listen, our entire GDP is Tom Hardy and maybe Tom Hiddleston. And I think we know that deep down, we are an increasingly irrelevant country, but we like the idea that we’re not as barmy as those over the way. And I think actually you know you see all the British names embroiled in this, Richard Branson as well, you know, this they’re coming out and the sleaze and the boys club and the international network of it. I think it has rattled people and made people feel like, God, actually we’re just like them really. 

Jane Coaston: You’ve mentioned um the royal formerly known as Prince Andrew, who I think has been kicked out of multiple homes now. He was one of the first people we saw very, very slowly see repercussions. And on Monday, Buckingham Palace said King Charles III is ready to quote, “support UK police investigating his brother for allegedly sending trade reports to Epstein.” One, why were all these people emailing Epstein everything? And also, how big of a deal is this for the royal family? 

Coco Khan: Pure clarity. I am a Republican. I don’t like the monarchy. I don’t see the point of it. I’m not a fan of it, right? So I accept that I may be a bit too willing to see that everyone’s coming my way. And maybe that’s not actually the case. But since the Queen died, there’s been a cooling of feeling towards the monachy. You know, our parents had relationships to the Queen, you know, she was this figure, we don’t have the same relationship to the King who previously Prince Charles was just an on-running joke about his like various sexual letters he would send to the now Queen about being her tampon or whatever. It was, you know, Britain’s a weird country. Um. But in fairness to King Charles, he has contained it both physically and literally. Not only has he come out saying he will support any investigations, although I would say maybe a little bit too slow, which has been negative for him in terms of public consensus. But physically he has said that he is going to keep Andrew on some grounds in some building of the many grounds that he has for his own mental safety, apparently, because he’s, you know, a mess and a liability. So he’s you know kind of in his own way saying, well, I don’t want him to go to prison, but I will put him in this gilded cage for a while. And I think that that is showing an amount of responsibility and that may rescue this very weird institution we call the royal family. I mean, people are talking about maybe King Charles should abdicate over this. He hasn’t been, you know, forthcoming enough with his condemnation, but who would that leave? Prince William. Have you seen him? I’m not, I’m not exactly sure I’m going to get radical inspiring leadership out of Prince William, no offense to the Prince. 

Jane Coaston: You mentioned the backlash. Is this–

Coco Khan: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: –fallout over Starmer, is this the result of public pressure? Is there a major movement within the government itself? Because it seems like it’s not like the Tories are doing great either. Like, where is this measure of accountability coming from and how do we get some? 

Coco Khan: Well, I mean, well, that’s very nice that you, you look to us and think, oh gosh, look at them doing accountability. That’s actually very very nice. 

Jane Coaston: You guys yell at each other in parliament. I don’t know. 

Coco Khan: Yep. 

Jane Coaston: It just seems nice. We should start doing that 

Coco Khan: Oh, I so wish that was the case. Um. I think we’re all deluded, basically. We’re all going around with like knives in our pocket, but we say it in Shakespearean language, so we think it’s okay, I guess, but I mean we’re still shanking each other, rest assured. Um. I actually just want to come back to something that has been really on my mind recently, and I’m sure you must have encountered the same thing. There’s a lot of people who are disengaged and disaffected about politics and they will often say the same thing. They’re all the same. And as a progressive, I have found myself, despite being very disappointed with the Labor Party and other progressive parties, I have still found myself being like, oh, that’s not quite right. That’s not quite right that it’s all the same, but an instance like this has really hardened that feeling. Cause fundamentally it was an international boys club, a rich people’s boys club. And there were Labor Party politicians in it, right? And they were willing to put that network before country as Mandelson proved when he was willing to leak state secrets to this man. So I think that is something that is really, really scary. And I think what’s coming next in the UK, particularly with the rise of what I would call the far right, we have our own version of Donald Trump, Nigel Farage. I’m very scared about what’s coming next and actually how this feeling that the kind of main parties cannot be trusted. Well, we, we better give someone else a go. And that someone else obviously is not only the most establishment person ever, but has created this image of being an outsider and it’s very scary and will do whatever they want. 

Jane Coaston: Coco, thank you so much for joining me. 

Coco Khan: No, my pleasure. And, um, I hope it gets better for you and for me. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Coco Kahn, co-host of Crooked Media’s Pod Save the UK. Believe it or not, there is a lot of news left to cover because these days, What A Day is not just the name of our show, it’s how we feel every time we close our laptops. If you feel the same, make sure you subscribe, leave a five-star review on Spotify or Apple podcasts and tell your friends or watch us on YouTube. We’ll be back after some ads. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines.

[clip of Vice President J.D. Vance] What President Trump and the Prime Minister have accomplished together is really visionary. Peace is not made by cautious people. Peace is not made by people who are too focused on the past. Peace is made by people who are focused on the future. 

Jane Coaston: That’s Vice President J.D. Vance in Yerevan, Armenia, describing President Donald Trump as a person focused on the future. Which I assume means he is describing someone else entirely. Vance became the first sitting U.S. Vice President or President to visit Armenia on Monday. He was there to advance a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan to end nearly 40 years of fighting over the Nagorno-Karabakh territory. Vance traveled to Yerevan as part of an agreement signed by both countries to sign a peace treaty. Yes, an agreement to sign an agreement. It’s like concepts of a peace treaty. Vance’s trip was intended to show US support for peace. He said that America will be investing in Armenia’s infrastructure and will export advanced computer chips and surveillance drones. Vance will now travel to Azerbaijan in hopes of turning the concept of a Peace Treaty into real peace. Stay tuned. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is expected to meet with President Trump in Washington tomorrow. Netanyahu’s office announced a visit in a post online over the weekend, noting that the leaders will discuss negotiations with Iran. The U.S. and Iran held indirect talks last week in Oman over Tehran’s nuclear program. Netanyahu’s office said, quote, “The Prime Minister believes that all negotiations must include limiting the ballistic missiles and ending support for the Iranian Axis.” And let’s not forget that a short war broke out last summer when Israel tried to destroy Iran’s nuclear program. But the U.S. didn’t want to be left out and decided to intervene, striking Iranian nuclear sites. 

[clip of Tricia McLaughlin] We have 10,000 new ICE enforcement officers that are going to be hired in the coming days. So we know that we’re going to continue to arrest the worst of the worst off of the streets of America’s sanctuary cities and across the nation. 

Jane Coaston: That was Department of Homeland Security spokesperson Tricia McLaughlin on Fox News last November, using the Trump administration’s favorite phrase. So is ICE arresting the worst of the worst? Well, a new report from CBS News found that less than 14% of people arrested by ICE in the first year of Trump’s second term had violent criminal records. According to an internal DHS document obtained by CBS, that’s fewer than 56,000 of the nearly 400,000 people arrested. What’s more, the document shows that 40% not have any criminal record. Because of course they don’t. And speaking of DHS, officials at ICE, Customs and Border Protection, and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services are scheduled to testify before the House Committee on Homeland Security today. The hearing comes as Congress debates funding for DHS amid the Trump administration’s deadly immigration crackdown. The deadline to fund DHS and avoid a partial departmental shutdown is Friday at midnight. A shutdown would not impact immigration enforcement funded through Trump’s big Republican spending, law, debacle, disaster, adventure. But it would impact other parts of the agency like TSA, FEMA, the Coast Guard, and Secret Service. You know the stuff that isn’t totally horrifying. And that’s the news. [music break] One more thing. Let’s talk about Steve Bannon. He’s the multiple-shirt-wearing, former investment banker and convicted felon, who has spent the last decade or so claiming to be the pied piper for a global populist movement. He was President Trump’s campaign chairman during the 2016 election and chief strategist during his first term. That is, until Trump fired him for, among other things, repeatedly giving press interviews in which he made himself sound more important than he actually was. Actually, that’s pretty much the main thing to know about Steve Bannon. He thinks really, really, really highly of himself. According to Axios, he even wants to run for president in 2028, but he also thinks Trump should run for an illegal third term. Here he is speaking with The Economist late last year. 

[clip of Steve Bannon] Well, he’s going to get a third term, so Trump ’28. Trump is going to be president in ’28, and people just ought to get accommodated with that. 

[clip of unknown Economist reporter] So what about the 22nd Amendment? 

[clip of Steve Bannon] There’s many different alternatives. At the appropriate time, we’ll lay out what the plan is. But there’s a plan, and President Trump will be the president in ’28. 

Jane Coaston: Let’s be clear here, there is no plan. And as for Bannon himself running for president, he may have run into a problem. Okay, besides the no-one-wants-president-Steve-Bannon problem. Based on newly released documents from the Department of Justice, Steve Bannon’s entire pro-populism, anti-elite shtick was created in part by the most elite of elites, Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. According to the many, many, many emails between the two men, Epstein helped Bannon plan a populist takeover of Europe, with Bannon asking the convicted sex offender for advice on how to talk about Trump’s trade policies and complimenting Epstein’s quote, “brilliant, brilliant, brilliant ideas.” Bannon consoled Epstein about the bad press surrounding his, you know, many, many, many crimes, writing that someone must be running a quote, “op or operation on him.” Bannon was even planning to take their friendship public. After the Netflix documentary, Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich, was announced, the two planned to make a pro-Epstein documentary. In fact, DOJ documents show they were texting about that documentary the day Epstein was arrested in 2019 on federal sex trafficking charges. Now the Bannon documentary on Epstein isn’t new information. Roughly two hours of footage of interviews between Bannon and Epstein were released last year. Check it out if you want to watch two horrifyingly bad people talk about the soul and ethics and how Jesus Christ never wrote anything down. I am not joking. But the extent of just how involved Epstein was in Bannon’s political operation was new information and it appears to have surprised a big swath of the American right. Let’s be honest, it’s not surprising. Steve Bannon isn’t a populist, he’s a bullshitter who helped get the biggest bullshitter of all time into the White House. And when it came down to it, Bannon didn’t want to fight the elites. He wanted to manipulate them with the help of a convicted sex offender. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, celebrate the wedding you watched during Bad Bunny’s Super Bowl halftime performance because yes, that was a real wedding. And tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how the couple originally invited Bad Bunny to their wedding, but then Bad Bunny was like, I have a way cooler idea. Like me, What A Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston. And according to the groom’s Instagram stories, he said the best part of the night was quote, “getting a wife.” Good answer. [music break] What A Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Emily Fohr. Our producer is Caitlin Plummer. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters and Matt Berg. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison. And our senior vice president of news and politics is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Kyle Murdock and Jordan Cantor. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]