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It’s been an emotional week after the arrival of a Hamas-Israel ceasefire. This is good news – but issues of humanitarian aid, human rights, and accountability are all still up in the air. The struggle for a lasting peace continues…

Closer to home – Nish and Coco check in with Plaid Cymru’s leader Rhun ap Iorwerth, to talk about seeing off Reform, what a new co-operative era in Welsh politics might look like and why voters may find themselves a little “indie-curious”.

If Oasis can bury the hatchet, so can we! That’s Your Party’s message, but Nish and Coco aren’t  totally sold on the Corbyn-Sultana reunion. In the wake of a Green membership surge, the party without a name is drawing dividing lines…  But are they picking the right battles?

And – the Iron Lady turns 100 – as lavish celebrations begin Nish and Coco ask why the UK is soooooooooo obsessed with Mags. From Right to Buy to Section 28 – her legacy isn’t looking so great in 2025. And a scary revelation that Coco is spookily good at imitating her.

NB. A previous version of this episode contained an incorrect fact about Katy Perry. We regret the error.

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Medical Aid for Palestinians

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TRANSCRIPT

[AD]

Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK, I’m Nish Kumar.

Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan. Coming up on today’s show, news of an Israel Hamas ceasefire sparks joy and relief. But the question of what comes next is a thorny one.

Nish Kumar Are we still going to be talking about Oasis in every area of our life? We’re gonna give you an update on your party and a new dividing line drawn between them and the Greens.

Coco Khan Then later we’re joined by the leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth, to talk about Welsh independence, proportional representation, and about a massive scandal within the Welsh Wing of Reform.

Nish Kumar So this week all eyes are on the Middle East after a ceasefire deal brokered by Donald Trump was agreed by Hamas and Israel on Friday. It’s welcome news and a rare moment of joy for everyone who’s been calling for the genocide to end.

Coco Khan I cannot imagine what it must feel like to wake up in Gaza this week. I saw a video of a little boy that I follow online, and he was just standing outside holding his cat, just saying, Oh, you know, tonight I get to sleep and not be afraid. Maybe someday I’ll go back to school. And it it really got me in the in the heart. So on Monday, we also saw jubilant scenes as the last 20 Israeli hostages were returned and reunited with their families. And in Gaza and the West Bank, large crowds celebrated the return of 2,000 Palestinians detained over the course of the conflict.

Nish Kumar There’s a lot of talk this week from global leaders about ushering in a new era of stability and security. But it’s we would really like to draw everybody’s attention to Nezreen Malik’s piece in The Guardian this week, which is absolutely brilliant as ever from her. This is a quote from it. If the ceasefire holds, this language is an auger of the future, one where there is no reckoning, no addressing of root causes, only a hurling into the imperatives of cleanings up and workings out. All the while, illegal occupation continues, and another chapter of Israel’s violations is furtively closed without accountability, not only for Israel, but for its sponsors. Really, we would draw everybody’s attention to that piece because it gets into some of the wider questions about a total lack of accountability for particularly Western government’s actions in the Middle East. And again, this is perpetrating a cycle of violence that we’ve seen in the 21st century. I I really strongly believe that the lack of accountability in conversation about the roads to war in Iraq and Afghanistan have left us in a situation where there is no accountability for that sort of decision making.

Coco Khan Yeah. And this piece, and I’m loath to use the word ple peace, because I I I feel like can we call it peace if we don’t know what’s happening in terms of occupation, in terms of, you know, frankly, the apartheid. It’s an incredibly fragile piece. And the rhetoric from Trump and Netanyahu has been laced with well, I mean w th they are threats, aren’t they? So Trump has said if they, talking about Hamas, don’t disarm, we will disarm them and it will happen quickly and perhaps violently. Netanyahu’s also warned Hamas to disarm or risk all hell that’s a quote, breaking loose.

Nish Kumar This whole thing has been sold as a massive win for Trump across the entire media spectrum. I would once again direct listeners to the most recent episode of Pod Save the World, where Ben and Tommy talk about the specifics of the deal and these enormous diplomatic gaps, and also really draw attention to the comprehensive failure of the Abraham Accords, which remember Trump sold in his first term as an enormous breakthrough for peace in the Middle East, and how some of the gaps within the Abraham Accords, particularly the lack of representation of Palestinian leadership, sowed the seeds for the damage that’s been done in the last two years. From a British perspective on this, the government is trying hard to sell the UK as being a key player in what comes next. Addressing MPs after his return from the Egypt peace summit, Starmer said the UK had been in a position to work behind the scenes for a ceasefire in part because of the decision to recognize the state of Palestine. He also said the UK would support the reconstruction of Gaza, transitional governance arrangements, and the decommissioning of Hamas.

Coco Khan But while Starmer claims the UK will play a leading role in the peace process, this incredibly awkward clip from the summit suggests otherwise.

Clip Is everything going okay there?

Nish Kumar Yeah, Keir Starmer clearly thinks he’s being invited up to speak. He is summarily dismissed and he sort of has to slink into the background. It is uniquely British in its incredibly cringe inducing awfulness.

Coco Khan Yeah, it’s very, very awkward. But it does tell us that this is clearly the Trump show and we are all just living in it. We should also note that the peace deal conveniently landed just ahead of the Nobel Peace Prize Award.

Nish Kumar Which he hilariously didn’t win. Trump I’ve never seen somebody so openly campaign. It it’s like during Oscar season when people take out adverts saying for your consideration. Like that’s what this whole thing has felt like the entire time. Trump just taking out for your consideration adverts for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Coco Khan Also, did you notice how he you know in interviews he was saying, you know, I should win it. I’ve I’ve solved six wars and then it was seven wars, and and he’s just making them up. But I thought I asked my mate Chat GPT, what are these wars? And one of them was like a economic normalization deal. Like he’s literally c anything where there’s like a slight amount of tension that he’s involved. He’s like, I fix that war. Anyway, in a slightly bizarre twist, one UK leader who might end up being very involved is Tony Blair. Trump previously named Blair to be on his board of peace and head up the International Transitional Authority. So this is like a board who will, as Israel withdraw, run the territory.

Nish Kumar I mean, talk about not learning your lessons from the early two thousands. It could not be proving my point more viscerally here. This week, actually, Trump has also expressed some doubts about this. He said, I like Tony, I’ve always liked Tony, but I want to find out that he is an acceptable choice to everybody, which he may well not be, given that Anthony is, shall we say, a somewhat controversial figure in the Middle East.

Coco Khan I’ve always liked Tony and I this I don’t the sopranos energy of this whole thing also makes my skin crawl a bit.

Nish Kumar The way that Trump talked about Tony Blair suggested he’d forgotten who he was. There was a slight air to the way that he kept repeating Tony. There was a slight air of him going, Tony, lovely guy while his memory roller decks desperately scrolled through.

Coco Khan Someone’s in the ear. Yeah. Tony Blair, Tony Blair. So look, whether this is a historic new dawn for the Middle East, as Trump claims, is yet to be seen. In the short term, though, the alarming humanitarian crisis in Gaza continues, and international journalists have called for reporters to be granted immediate access to Gaza.

Nish Kumar That cannot be restated enough. It is absolutely imperative that there is full access for international journalists to Gaza now. This should have been the entire time, but it’s absolutely imperative that that happens now. The humanitarian crisis is not over. Gaza is essentially rubble at this point. There are still tens of thousands of maimed people, a lot of whom are children that need medical assistance. So the energy that people have putting been putting in and the activism that people have been putting in around campaigning for a ceasefire, which is brilliant to see. And there were thousands of people out on the streets again in London on Saturday in cities across the United Kingdom. It’s really important that that energy continues and those fundraising pushes continue because clearly the humanitarian side of this is not over. As much as we also need to be talking about accountability and talking about measures that turn a ceasefire into a peace deal, because this isn’t a peace deal, but it’s a ceasefire. And the ceasefire is welcome and desperately needed. But at the same time, it’s not the same as a framework for a lasting peace. Those are two different things. So it’s really important that people continue to keep their focus and keep the pressure that they’re putting on their governments around this.

Coco Khan No, absolutely. I mean, that is kind of the question now, right? Where do we put this activism? Where do we channel it now? The worst thing that can happen is that there’s a there’s a decline in involvement from people around the world. Yeah. Now, we wanted to share the response from one listener, a religious orthodox Jew, who wrote to us after our discussion of the recent anti-Semitic Manchester attacks. They described receiving the news after their synagogue service on Yom Kippur. This listener writes, parents were advised to take their kids home, and we were told not to linger anywhere outside the building as it wasn’t safe.

Nish Kumar They went on to say most of us didn’t find out what happened until sundown when we were able to use our phones and check in on family and friends in Manchester.

Coco Khan When I heard that the government’s response was increased police presence, I felt more unsafe. When the people in power are classing any pro Palestinian views or actions as anti Semitism, I, as an anti Zionist Jew, do not feel safe.

Nish Kumar When the government talks about protecting Jews, I do not feel they are including me. They mean the right kind of Jew, the one who agrees with and supports them. I’m scared I will be defined out of Judaism. If the government really wants to combat anti Semitism, the first step is simple. Do everything in your power to stop Israel from committing genocide in my people’s name.

Coco Khan Wow, what a powerful message. Thank you so much for sharing that. I actually had chills reading it out because that that the feeling of hearing about this news and not knowing about your loved ones, I mean, I my heart really breaks to hear that. But there was a line that they wrote where they said, Oh, I will be defined out of Judaism. And I was thinking about that and just how actually, for a lot of minorities, there is a kind of homogeneity that plays out with the media, whatever group it might be, that you know, this is how this group thinks, this is how this group thinks. And actually, like trying to unlearn that and trying to make sure that wherever we encounter stories about communities, and we do need to hear stories about communities, that’s important as part of our kind of mutual understanding, that we don’t fall into those traps.

Nish Kumar And there is a push, certainly in the sort of politically conservative elements of religious groups, particularly, to push back against any kind of progressive views. You know, it’s something that the Hindu community is going through at the moment. This idea that if you don’t support Narendra Modi and the BJP, that is somehow an affront to the tenets of your Hinduism. There are pushes by these kind of authoritarian leaders who intrinsically link their politics to their religion to make themselves the custodians of that religion. And that is an idea that I think is really incredibly dangerous and incredibly loaded. Benjamin Netanyahu is not the custodian of the tenets of Judaism, you know, one of the oldest religions in the world. That he is not the custodian of that. Narendra Modi is not the custodian of the religious faith of Hinduism. The Wahhabi Saudi Arabians are not the custodians of the Islamic faith. The Westboro Baptist Church are not the custodians of the Christian faith. It’s something we should push back very forcefully against. What this listener is trying to articulate is something that should be really relatable to a lot of communities that we cannot be said enough on this show. The Jewish people around the world are not responsible for the actions of the state of Israel. And that’s something that we have to be absolutely clear on, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum or where your views fall on Palestine. And I wish that our government was more clear on that.

Coco Khan Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that, our great listener. We really appreciate your input. Now, after the break, we’re joined by the leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth, to talk about Welsh independence, proportional representation, and about a massive scandal within the Welsh wing of reform.

[AD]

Nish Kumar 2026’s May elections are shaping up to be seismic. Many councils across the country will be contested, but massively important is the fact that the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Senate will also be contested.

Coco Khan And joining us now, fresh from their conference, is the leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Welcome back to the podcast.

Rhun ap Iorwerth It’s lovely to be here in person this time.

Coco Khan I R L. So the last time we spoke to you was just ahead of the general election last year. Since then, we’ve turned to the Welsh elections in May as one of the biggest tests for Keir Starmer’s government and one of the areas where reform and of course Plaid have an opportunity to upset the status quo, potentially unseating the Labour majority that has existed since the formation of the Senate. It’s you know, no big deal, I guess.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Momentous historic. You know, we can chuck all these words at it. But it is, I mean, Labour started their streak in 1922. Yeah. And they’ve won all Welsh elections since this day, you know. I’m not gonna sit here criticizing them for being successful electorally. But but the fact that we are coming up to elections now where there is growing belief, hope, depends who you’re talking to, expectation from others that there really could be a change now, that that is really getting people interested and focused on what’s what’s happening. And for those of us on the sort of more positive, more progressive side of of politics, looking in in in despair at times at what’s happening across the border in in England, we we can see that there is a real hope to be able to put forward and gain support for the positive alternative to what’s going on in global politics at the moment.

Nish Kumar Before we dive right into the conversation about the actual dynamics at play between the parties, it’s really important to contextualize that there is something very different about this particular election because Wales is about to enjoy its first election with proportional representation. So can you explain a little bit for our listeners from around the country how this is going to work and how it could be you know, it’s a potential game changer.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Yeah, we we we’ve had a kind of proportional system since the assembly then was was established in nineteen ninety nine. But it’s been a hybrid system where you’ve had forty seats elected in exactly the same as Westminster, first past the post, old fashioned, discredited, but you know, still still in use, and then twenty top-up seats on you know elected on a regional basis, which gives you an element of of proportionality. That’s going, and we’re moving to a system where it’s all going to be a proportional system. So you in effect you know sum it up, you have a smaller number of larger constituencies with six members in each, with the seats divvied out on a proportional basis. What that gives you is the opportunity for change. That forty first past the post seats g gave Labour effectively an inbuilt bias in the system. They still had to win those first past the the post seats, but they were largely in post industrial areas where Labour had that strength for so so long. They have that inbuilt bias, that is gone. It’s a more level playing field. And if you consider that one of the biggest barriers to change always is people believing that change isn’t possible, yeah, they were going into elections, reckoning that they knew what the result was before they started voting, and Labour’s gonna be, you know, the biggest party again. This time it’s different. So when we say, you know, you want Plaid companies to lead government, you want a different way of doing things, put an X in the box, that’ll count. You can get that Plaid government.

Nish Kumar We should say at this point, Plaid currently leading in an all Wales opinion poll, sitting at about thirty percent of the vote to reforms twenty nine percent, with Labour on fourteen percent and the Tories on eleven, and the Greens and the Lib Dems at around six percent. If these results stick, if you can convert that opinion polling into sort of hard electoral success, there will almost certainly not be an outright majority party, which means that the next Welsh government will have to be a coalition of sorts. I I know that you’ve already said how this would play out, but Rean, just for the sake of our listeners, let’s hear it straight from you. What what’s your intention in the instance of a hung parliament?

Rhun ap Iorwerth Again, a bit of context. There’s never been a majority government in Wales in in devolution, but Labour have had around or at half the seats. So it it’s not new to go into a system where it’s unlikely that somebody has a majority. But you’re right, nobody’s really expecting anybody to have a majority. So what do you do then? One, I say to people, wait until after the election to see how the people of Wales have have shared out the votes. You know, we we want to reflect the voice of the people of Wales. It’s not imposing a government or a set of Senate members, it’s up to the people of Wales. But it’s important also that they understand, you know, what some of the elements are that will guide us in our decision making. Reform. Diametrically opposed to to Plaid Cymru on pretty much everything. Yeah, we’re not going to be working with with them because they are trying to undo and undermine so many values that are important to me and my my party. Same with the Tories, if they’re gonna be there in any significant n numbers, we know they face an existential threat. And then it’s okay, how do we get if it’s Plaid Cymru that has the honor of having been chosen by the people of Wales to be the biggest party, and I’m first minister, how do you then bring stability? Do we we look across those parties that that we share values with, look for common ground, and I ask them listen, this is our program for government. Will you support us? You know, how how can we build some stability and and take Wales forward?

Nish Kumar I mean you’ve you’d sort of set yourself out as a progressive e even just in the course of this conversation. So it follows naturally a and you’ve already ruled out a coalition with the Reform Party and the Conservative Party, if there is again it’s very strange that we’re sat having a conversation like this, but

Rhun ap Iorwerth I was listening to your p you know pod from the T after the Tory conference. Yeah, pe people questioning why they’d bothered going, you know. It’s remarkable that we are at this point, but but we are there.

Nish Kumar Yeah yeah, so obviously there’s this natural alliances to be formed within Welsh politics for you. I mean, i i you you seem pretty open minded about working with the Labour Party, but you you haven’t actually directly had had the chance to engage with Keir Starmer in person, right? Or directly? Is that

Rhun ap Iorwerth Yeah no. It’s interest I was asked in an interview last last week actually in the in the conference, have you have you met Keir Starmer? And I had to say no I haven’t. I was racking my brains to to think, did I interview him when when I was a joke? Well no I was a kid.

Nish Kumar It’s all much. I did question time with him about f six six years ago. How is it possible that a stand up comedian with undiagnosed IBS has managed to meet Keir’s Starmer and New Happen?

Rhun ap Iorwerth Well I I I had the pleasure of you know presenting breakfast news programs and that kind of thing for for many years. And he may have been a guest or something. I d I don’t remember. But as a politician, you know, when when he was approaching Downing Street, it was clear he was gonna win the last last election. You know, we said let’s let’s sit down and talk. I you know, I I want to influence the UK Prime Minister to do the right thing by by Wales. And we I don’t think I got a response to that particular letter. And then I then I asked after the election, you know, I you’re really looking forward to sitting down with you. And and he again chose to to pass us on to the Secretary of State for Wales. But if I’m First Minister for Wales, you know I I want to build up a very constructive relationship with the UK Prime Minister because you know, we we need to push the boundaries of of a whole host of things on investment in infrastructure in Wales, getting our railways up and running, getting fair funding sorted out, you know, us being able to control our natural resources in i in Wales. And that Labour have you know really failed to persuade their Labour colleagues to do that. So I’m I I want to do it constructively.

Coco Khan So I mean we talk about a progressive coalition on this podcast a lot and it seems like that may actually come to fruition.

Rhun ap Iorwerth It doesn’t have to yeah, it doesn’t have to be a coalition, of course. I in fact, in my conference speech, I I I appeal for an alliance before the election. You know, an alliance of of people who you who let’s put it bluntly, want to stop reform type politics, you know, that kind of divisive politics, to come together and and hopefully see that in Plaid company they’ve got somebody they can trust to to lead government. Following the election, coalition is a word that people often jump to. It doesn’t have to be a coalition. Cooperation can work in a whole host of of different ways. It could be informal, formal, issue by by issue. So it doesn’t have to be a a coalition. And certainly if the polls now are close to what the election might be, might might be, might not, that could s certainly mean a minority Plaid company government, not a coalition. So you know, we’d be looking at that.

Coco Khan So okay, so let’s just call it an alliance then. And you’ve got Plaid m bit of Labour, bit of libdem, bit of greens, and you’re all working together. What are the areas you first want to tackle? Where where would we see change quickly?

Rhun ap Iorwerth I mean, there are a number of things that that you know speak for themselves. We we’ve gone through a period of you know desperate problems in in the health service in Wales. So we’ve got to get to grips with that. And you know, I’ve made it clear that we will prioritize just getting those waiting lists down, because unless you are able to just do that and do it pretty quickly, you’re not going to be able to then do the other thing that we need to do, is which is to build sustainability in the NHS and care sector. And certainly we want to build an alliance around how how do we make that switch to a preventative revolution that we absolutely need to do, keeping us healthier and and so on. But there are a host of other other things that we need to do around housing, for example. Now, I announced in our conference recently that that Plaid company would legislate for a right to have a home, which throws up a lot of challenges when you haven’t got enough homes and and so on. But if you’re saying right, that is what we’re aiming for, it’s difficult because you gotta up the the housing house building program. You’ve got to you know take steps forward on a host of different areas, but actually it’s really important. And you need an alliance of people willing to support legislation and and and back spending to make it make it happen. Infrastructure, a major one in Wales still. There’s been a big lack of spending on rail in particular, but other elements of our infrastructure, which holds back productivity, productivity holds back the economic growth that we need to make us a pro more prosperous country, that we need in order to be a more equal country, and so on. So this is all part of what I would see as a progressive agenda that we need to build an alliance behind. And and what Plaid is saying is you know, things have been stagnant for too long. We haven’t been bold enough in moving forward. So let’s have a new leadership under us. Do things differently.

Nish Kumar So let’s just talk about reform briefly. So, as we mentioned, you’re polling at similar-ish levels. There is a story that’s specific to Wales and the Reform Party that, you know, we’re as guilty of anybody as not covering this sufficiently. So the Welsh Division of Reform is currently leaderless after an admission from the former leader Nathan Gill. Gill admitted last month to taking bribes from Russia on eight occasions while he was a member of the European Parliament. This is an extraordinary story, right, Reen? It is extraordinary.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Important as a story. We should say this is shocking. Perhaps the strength of the story and the impact of the story is that it perhaps isn’t too shocking to people. He has pleaded guilty to doing something that people have been questioning reform about. Could they really be more interested in alliances with bad actors that work against our interests than actually in pursuing what’s right for our communities? And you know what? Yes, the former leader of reform did admit to taking bribes from Russia.

Coco Khan And I we should just say for clarity for our listeners, Gill pled guilty to taking bribes for making statements in the European Parliament that were supportive of a particular narrative that would benefit Russia regarding events in Ukraine.

Nish Kumar Yeah, he’s admitted to the bribery and his barrister told the old Bailey that it is recognized that it is inevitable that the defendant will receive an immediate sentencing to prison and Gill is going to be sentenced in November. Farage has reacted by saying that he was stunned by the news. Gil and Farage have been working together for a long time, right?

Rhun ap Iorwerth Yeah, and and their candidate in the current by-election that’s being fought in in Wales. And I used to work for for Gill and and for Arjan and he, you know, are tripping over themselves to say this was nothing to to do with us, but it was to do with their leader in Wales, the leader of reform in Wales. And yeah, the the the significance of that, I think, is a bit of a penny drop moment for for people. We know that you know this is a global phenomenon, the growth of the political right, and you know, they are trying to portray themselves as a movement of the people. The the people I am totally convinced, and I would hope that you are too, do not want political leaders to be colluding with and forming alliances with people who are undermining every single day values that are important to us here in the UK in in Wales. It is appalling that this happens. And when you think of you know, that there’s a major debate currently in Wales about a what’s called a nation of sanctuary policy that that that government has. It’s not about migrant numbers, it’s it’s about treating people with humanity if they end up in Wales. Pretty much all of that has gone on helping people from Ukraine to come to to Wales. That that most people I think who are possibly being persuaded by by reform would think is a good thing. That we’re on Ukraine’s side, are we not? And here we have reforms, former leader in Wales taking bribes to talk down Ukraine and promote their enemy Russia. This is really, really appalling.

Coco Khan Why is reform so popular in Wales? I mean, you’ve got this massive story. Farage himself is saying, Oh, I don’t want to be I don’t know about my policies. It’s too early to say. Oh he’s avoiding the question.

Nish Kumar Yeah, it’s t it’s too early to say for elections that are happening in May. It’s definitely not too early to say.

Rhun ap Iorwerth It’s it’s it’s an interesting way that you asked the the question, why are they so p popular in Wales? And I hear it all the time, ooh, Wales is their, you know, the it’s their front line. I think in in England currently or on a UK level, they’re polling something like double digits ahead of Labour and the and the Conservatives.

Nish Kumar I I know, but c can I can I say that we I I sometimes think progressive people in this country expect better from Wales than England.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Maybe that’s it. And we’d like to deliver better. But one thing I would make clear though, and I I think this is really important. I I’m not for a second playing down the success that reform is having in the in the polls in Wales now. The point I was going to make was that you know it it it seems, it appears from hey, what I’m hearing on the doorstep, the length and breadth of Wales, and from the polls, consistent polls now for you know many months, by the way, that there is a party, and it’s Plaid Cymru in Wales that is able to to beat reform, that is offering an alternative. We know that incumbency is in politics is not a big strength at the moment. We know that there’s real disillusionment with the old guards, if if I could call them that. You know, the deep disillusionment with with Starmer and what he’s done in government, with Welsh Labour in in government for failing to stand up to him. So people want a change. And what we have in Wales, and that’s what we’re trying to work very hard on, is a way to offer an alternative that doesn’t mean going down those avenues of supporting parties whose former leaders take bribes from from Russia. How do you combat that disaffection?

Nish Kumar I mean, it’s a question we ask every week to different people. How do progressive parties there’s clearly a sense of disillusionment and disenfranchisement and a kind of economic dislocation with people who are watching a system year on year not only fail to make their lives better, but in some cases are seeing declines in their quality and standard of living. How do we how do you push back on that specifically in Wales? Well, A, it’s about recognizing that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth There are those deep concerns and frustrations and anger within communities, the length and breadth of Wales at the problems they face in in accessing health care of the quality that they should expect as taxpayers or the problems of housing, you know, the continuing weight of the cost of living on the most vulnerable in in society. These are very, very real problems. So I say, you know what? Yes, I 100% recognize that. I see it in the communities that that I live in. I I I experience the problems with transport and and and and health myself and within my my family. So if we recognize that there is a problem, how about having a debate about what those real problems are? A, I will always try to persuade people, don’t blame poor people for the problems that we have. Blame governments for failing to take action. Don’t allow yourself to be pitched against your neighbor because billionaires are getting away with it because governments allow them to get away with it. And and that’s the way we we address it. And then by offering hope, you know, a rare commodity, it seems, by providing answers. If we have problems in health, we will offer to do this. If we have problems in housing, we will, you know, pass legislation on on a right to to a home. If you’re struggling with the cost of living, Plaid company will introduce a universal childcare offer that’ll take the pressure off you, give children the best start in life, will take the pressure off grandparents, you know, this intergenerational pressure that that families are feeling now. That’s how we’re doing it. It’s not by burying our heads in the sand. It’s not by tarring everybody with the same brush. It’s about saying, listen, that there is another way of doing this and we can do it in a positive way rather than encourage the fragmentation of society that sadly we’re seeing now.

Coco Khan What does that mean for independence? I know you’ve said that that’s not something you’re gonna push for in the first term. Where do you see that mission now?

Rhun ap Iorwerth Yeah, and and to me, independence is never a an end in itself. It is a means to build a different kind of society in Wales. I I I I ask people to look at the debate on independence as an in as a debate on whether we can do things better in Wales. I don’t think that the way things are now are the best they could be. I have always believed that in order to really be able to build a different kind of society where there is, you know, fundamental equality at the heart of everything that government does. We we need to have a redesign, if you like, of the way the UK works now. Independent countries working together. You know, countries in this these islands will always be our closest friends and allies and economic partners, but let’s look beyond that to Europe and and and beyond. So I say let’s have that debate. But it’s the people of Wales who’ll decide on you know the time scale of when we move forward. It’s my job to try to lead people, to try to persuade them, to try to encourage them to look openly at what the yeah opportunities are for for Wales. So that’s where I am on on independence, massively excited about it. Wanting also to deal with problems right now on health and jobs and education and and the cost of living and poverty. Yeah, you know, the deep, deep issues. But we we should always have an eye on the future. So it’s not a priority for you in the short term, you’d say? Short term, yeah, that that’s a that’s a fair way of putting it. I I I’ve often said I’d do it tomorrow, but that it it’s not up to me. You know, I I’ve got to bring Wales with us because I believe that gives us then the building blocks of doing something very, very different in in Wales. I want to get other people excited about it, others and you know, moving the debate on on the constitutional future of Wales, getting more people engaged with it. There was a a really important piece of work done in in the past few years. The independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales, chaired by the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams and Professor Laura McAllister, you know, two eminent, highly respected people who engaged with people, the length and breadth of Wales as never before on could we do things differently in Wales? And they came to a conclusion that there were three different viable options for Wales that we could choose. One would be having more devolution, absolutely needed to do some things right now. The other one was independence. You know, it’s a vi viable, they said. It’s just, you know, how do we overcome the challenges and make the most of the opportunities? So let’s take that debate on to the next next phase.

Coco Khan I suppose if you’re the largest party in Wales, when you start teasing this out again, pushing it again, it you’ll be in a much stronger position, right?

Rhun ap Iorwerth Well yes. And you know, I’ve said that we would have a standing commission to engage people in the conversation, not not to impose it. You can’t you can’t impose this thing. You know, this this is gonna be done by people in Wales saying, you know what, yeah, tell us more, tell us more. Answer me this question. I’m not convinced about this. What what about that? And that’s what we do. And and in government, if if we’re able to persuade people to to trust us, to be there to to lead the way forward on all those important day to day issues, then we build trust in well, if if they’re serious about dealing with health, I I think they’re serious about trying to find a different constitutional future for us as well. So I’ll I’ll listen to them. Yeah, not sure yet, but let let’s move forward. We have this indie curious label that that has become more prominent in recent years.

Coco Khan I would describe myself musically as indie curious between the years of two thousand and six and two thousand and twelve.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Yeah. So we’ve got that there’s been a big, big increase in support for independence. People saying, Yeah, where do I sign? Yeah. And then there’s been a an even more perhaps more significant increase in the number of people who are indie curious who say, Yeah, I’m interested in this. Definitely not against it. Not convinced. Have you heard of indie sleaze rings? Indie sleaze. Yeah, well you’re gonna tell me now.

Coco Khan Well I’m j just looking up. Just look it up. It’s nothing to do with politics.

Nish Kumar I’m not I’m I’m not sure it’s what a politician agitating for independence wants to directly associate themselves with.

Coco Khan It’s basically the internet terminology for that year of, you know, two thousand six.

Nish Kumar Early two thousands.

Coco Khan Early two thousands you know, listen to the strokes, that sort of thing. Okay, yeah. And that kind of culture of drinking too much. It was kind of before smartphones, so lots of Gen Zed which I continue to call them Gen Zed are looking back on that time with rose tinted glasses. Anyway, I just mentioned that to you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Yeah, and I’m fascinated.

Coco Khan If you wanna become big on the TikkyTok, I believe that’s what they call it, perhaps you could talk about indie sleeves.

Nish Kumar I d I definitely don’t think I listen, I’m not a political advisor and I have got no dog in any fight. but I would say don’t coin indie sleeves.

Coco Khan You don’t want to take Coco Khan’s political advice?

Rhun ap Iorwerth I have conflicting advice here now. I’ll go away, research you both a bit more and ugh.

Coco Khan Now that’s leadership, Rhun. That is leadership.

Nish Kumar Rhun ap Iorwerth, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

Coco Khan Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth Thank you both. Great to be here.

Nish Kumar Now, after the break, a century of Margaret Thatcher. Can we please get over her now?

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Nish Kumar This Monday was the one hundredth anniversary of the birth of Margaret Thatcher.

Coco Khan Did you celebrate?

Nish Kumar Yes, I did. And I’m not at liberty to disclose how I celebrated it. And as if to fire the ceremonial cannon, the political establishment frothed at the mouth, paying tribute to the Iron Lady.

Coco Khan Kemi Badenoch made a pilgrimage to Thatcher’s hometown, Grantham, where, and this is not a joke, Thatcher Fest is kicking off celebrations.

Nish Kumar Unquestionably, Thatcher is a topic of considerable debate between the political left and right. Many of us would condemn her for the introduction of the neoliberal doctrine that we continue to live through to this day.

Coco Khan One of the biggest and most lasting consequences of Thatcher’s legacy is undoubtedly her trademark right to buy scheme that saw the selling off of council houses, which many critics would argue has directly led to some of the biggest issues in housing and society today. Unaffordable cost of housing and the funding crisis are just beleaguering our councils, and that’s having a knock on effect to so many public services.

Nish Kumar The political right in Britain has lauded those same policies, and the commensurate lift in home ownership that lifted many people across the UK into a better standard of living, the policies that empowered business and the power of capital. So it’s no surprise, therefore, that her image was plastered all over the Conservative Party conference last week. Also, let’s be real, there is not a lot currently in the Conservative Party to celebrate. And so I think form former glories are pretty much all the Conservative Party has at the moment. I’m surprised they weren’t selling commemorative Stanley Baldwin mugs. As always, this Labour government, to be fair to them, cannot catch a break. They’re often condemned for either continuing to prescribe to the doctrine of Thatch and Leon Liberalism, or as some right wing columnist have opined, have wiped out her legacy. Coco, we were born in the nineteen eighties. We’re very much children of Thatcher’s Britain. Why do you think the Iron Lady continued to sort of cast a shadow over British politics?

Coco Khan I mean, what I want to say is because our political class are all public school boys and they have a thing about a buttoned up woman telling them they’re bad. That’s what I want to say, but I don’t know if that’s actually a helpful comment. I mean, look, she’s she definitely transformed Britain, I would argue, probably for the worst, because honestly, I feel like now here in 2025, there’s so much evidence that so many of her policies were were bad that I I’m quite shocked that so many people want to go to her hometown and celebrate.

Nish Kumar It’s an absolutely fascinating thing. I mean, more important thing that is a part of her shameful legacy is Thatcher’s legacy on the rights of LGBTQ people. Section 28 was a Thatcher era policy that banned local authorities and schools from promoting the teaching of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship. Section 28 was still on the statue books when we were at school. That’s how long and toxic that legacy lasts and lasted. And it it is something that should be brought more to the foreground when we discuss discuss Thatcher’s legacy because obviously, rightly, people on the political left talk a lot about the economic policies and the kind of day-to-day problems that are still being created by some of those decisions. But there is also this sideline of, you know, the treatment of gay and lesbian people in this country and the transgender community is so intrinsically linked to a policy like Section 28. I mean, it it’s an absolute disgrace. A few years ago, I watched a movie called Benediction, which is a Terence Davis film about Wilfred Owen and Sigfred Sassoon. If you were a school in Britain, I don’t know if this still happens now, but we it was just sort of constantly read to us. We were constantly taught about, you know, Del Chiet, decorum S, Propatri and Maury, you know, like all that war poetry that particularly those two produced. And like, and I was watching this movie, and it’s about the affair that those two men had, and about Siegfried Sassoon’s life in London as a closeted gay man and how you know, eventually a lot of the married women and had very unhappy marriages because they were kind of suppressing their real identity. And I was just sat there, just sort of boiling with rage at the fact that we learned so much about Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon. And at no point did anyone say to us, oh, by the way, they were gay. You know, it’s they’re they’re important building blocks in the national story that we tell about ourselves. And this whole thing was, you know, you have to respect these people and these men and what they did. And you’re like the ultimate act of disrespect we paid them in the way that we were t teaching our children about them, is to not engage with the fact that they were gay men. And and part of that sort of amurter is directly linked to section 28.

Coco Khan You know, obviously we’ve talked about the right to buy and we’ve talked about neoliberalism, but there’s also all these cultural ways as well. You know, the promotion of family values and the, you know, the demonization of single parents. I mean, I’ve I felt that in my own family quite personally. The various ways Margaret Thatcher has touched our lives, it just can’t be underestimated.

Nish Kumar For more on the sort of economic background, I would draw listeners’ attention to The Invisible Doctrine, The Secret History of Neoliberalism, which was written by George Monbiot and Peter Hutcheson. And I would draw listeners’ attention to an episode we did with George Monbiot where we discussed that book. It would be very helpful if I could remember what episode number that was. Just do me a favor, don’t ask Chat GPT about it for God Sake.

Coco Khan I am gonna. I am actually gonna.

Nish Kumar Don’t ask Chat GPT what episode that was. There is no need for that. It’s all very accessible.

Coco Khan For the benefits of the listener, I just want you to know when we went off air, Nish did genuinely give me a stern word and was like, You have got to stop using chat GPT.

Nish Kumar I just this is all I I’m sick of people

Coco Khan And I heard you, okay.

Nish Kumar I’m sick of people talking to me about saying like I asked Chat GPT about something good. Like you could just have Googled that. Chat GPT s largely seems to be a sort of intermediary between you and Googling something.

Coco Khan But he tells me I’m clever.

Nish Kumar Yeah.

Coco Khan He says I ask great questions.

Nish Kumar Chat GPT is not a substitute for seeking therapy.

Coco Khan So I don’t know if this is a good segue or a bad segue, but we did actually talk to an AI-trained chatbot trained upon Margaret Thatcher’s speeches and policies. So we asked it, should Nishkumar be allowed to continue to do comedy? And the AI Thatcher chatbot said, As I am no longer living, it is not possible for me to provide a current opinion on Mr. Nishkumar or his comedy. However, I was always a staunch defender of free speech within the bounds of law. I actually don’t know if this is Maggie Thatcher’s voice. I’m just doing a general poch lady. In a democratic society, individuals must be free to express themselves, whether through political discourse, journalism, or indeed comedy, so long as they remain within legal limits. In essence, if the market supports it and abides by the law, it ought to be allowed. There you go, Nish. Does the market support you? Yes, it does.

Nish Kumar I can’t believe I’ve just listened to you read out an AI chatbot trained on Margaret Thatcher’s speeches. It stuff like my what’s like this, I think, you know what? As a species, we’re done. And actually, we deserve to be. We deserve to be. This is what we’ve used the miracle of life on earth to do is ask an AI chatbot whether an idiot should still be allowed to do his pointless job.

Coco Khan So it doesn’t end here this segment, I’m afraid. I am about to go full gossip magazine journey on you. Guess who’s been? Spotted out and about, and there’s rumors that they are together.

Nish Kumar Not Affleck and JLo again.

Coco Khan No no, not Katie Perry Perry and Justin Trudeau either. Have you seen that one?

Nish Kumar Yeah, I see Katy Perry and Justin Trudeau.

Coco Khan That’s weird.

Nish Kumar It’s weird. It’s weird.

Coco Khan Did you know that Katy Perry was the ambassador of the British Asian Trust, which is a charity for British South Asians, and she was the ambassador for a while.

Nish Kumar What?

Coco Khan Anyway, Katy Perry lived in my mind rent-free. Yeah, it’s weird. I don’t know. But it’s not them. It’s actually a better duo. Zarah Sultana and Jeremy Corbyn. They were both at the launch of Your Party Liverpool and the left-wing conference, The World Transformed, which happened in Manchester last week. Sultana compared their reunion to the Gallagher brothers, saying the show is back on the road.

Nish Kumar I don’t think that’s a good comparison to bring up. That the Gallagher brothers have not reunited out of a love for a philosophical or political project. They’ve reunited for cold hard cash. That is not a good reunion to draw parallels to. It’s one that’s happening not through any mutual respect, just purely out of financial and contractual necessity. That’s the worst analogy you could have drawn, Zarah.

Coco Khan Well, you know, I’m just happy that they’ve patched things up. But the question is, is this all just a little too late? Has the tour bus left with Zack Polanski in the driving seat? So the Green Party has reached over a hundred thousand members for the first time. That’s a whopping fifty percent rise since Polanski became leader. They’ve overtaken the Lib Dems, and if this momentum continues, they could be on course to become bigger than the Conservatives. So that might also explain why Sultana was keen to draw dividing lines between your party and the Greens. It’s a question that lots of progressives have been asking. Well, what’s the difference between you? So here she is speaking to the World Transformed on Friday.

Clip Zack Polanski, the leader of the Green Party, said that he absolutely would continue diplomatic relations with Israel. I absolutely disagree, it’s a genocidal apartheid state. And if anyone wants to look up the Green Party online on their website, you will see that they believe NATO has an important role in maintaining security for member three Member States. I think NATO is an imperialist war machine and we should withdraw immediately.

Coco Khan This was clearly a rehearsal line. It’s not something that she came up with on the spot because it was later repeated in an interview with Turn Left Media.

Clip We should have a policy and I hope members pass this that we should withdraw from NATO because it is an imperialist war machine. Whereas the Greens on their website say that NATO has an important role in maintaining security for its member states.

Coco Khan Working with Israel and NATO, that is the dividing line. What do you think of this, Nish?

Nish Kumar I obviously was born in Britain. I have a lot of family that were born in and still remain in the global south. Countries in the global south, I think will always maintain a kind of skeptical relationship with NATO. And I understand that there’s a lot of legitimate criticisms and conversations around it as an organization. I am confused by this being the dividing line that your party is choosing to draw between themselves and the Green Party. Just talking about things that relate to people on a day-to-day basis. I’m not sure how much the average person on the street is spending time thinking about NATO. I think it’s also an odd time to talk about NATO because the organization at the moment is kind of under threat from Russia, which is also an imperialist war machine. Also, I’m concerned that the attack lines are being drawn. I I’m I I was happy to hear a sort of conciliatory approach coming from Zack Polanski and the Green Party about the possibility of working with your party. I would like to think that there will be alliances formed in the advance of the next election. You know, we we we’ve just talked to Rhun today about Plaid Cymru wanting to actually have an alliance in advance of an election rather than have the election and then scramble around. I mean, those are not the words he used. I’m editorializing on my interpretation of how he was feeling about that. The thing that everybody keeps saying to me is, oh my God, do you think your party and the Greens are going to work together? Is there going to be some kind of cooperation that prevents the progressive vote from being splintered? And Zarah, when she was on this podcast, was very keen. I believe the exact phrase was you don’t need to shit yourself about this. But further fragmentation of the left between your party and the Greens is something that deeply concerns me. I’m still, I’m sorry, Zarah shitting myself about this.

Coco Khan Please if you’re listening, Zarah and Zack, please don’t split so much that the only leadership I get left with is Katy Perry, the ambassador of South Asians in Britain.

Nish Kumar My concern with any further fragmentation of the progressive vote is that it opens the door for Farage to become the Prime Minister. And if Farage becomes the Prime Minister, regardless of what any Margaret Thatcher chatbot has to say, I’m in I’m in real trouble. We’re in real trouble.

Coco Khan It’s a that’s a yeah, no, it is a really, really dark picture, which is just in an immediate moment really annoying for me because I had a joke thought it was gonna do about don’t worry because you’ll hear the left roar. It’s a Katie Perry reference.

Nish Kumar Can can can we before we go, can we just fact check this thing about.

Coco Khan Do you know who you can ask?

Nish Kumar Who? I’m not asking Chat GPT. I refuse to ask Chat GPT.

Coco Khan All right, well Nish does that.

Nish Kumar According to the British Asian Trust’s website, she is still listed as an ambassador. Is Katy Perry Indian? Have I missed something incredibly.

Coco Khan I don’t think she is. That’s it! Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter, and Blue Sky! Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Nish Kumar Thanks to senior producer James Tyndale of producer Mae Robson.

Coco Khan Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulis.

Nish Kumar The executive producers are Louise Cotton and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Coco Khan And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcast, the producers have put a note in.

Nish Kumar The producers put a UK related fact is that Katy Perry married Russell Brand in a Hindu ceremony. I’m learning so much about Katy Perry here. Yeah. She got married in India in Rajasthan in two thousand and ten in a traditional Hindu ceremony. Less ideal who she was marrying, Russell Brand.

Coco Khan Yeah, well yeah. Well he does not represent our nation at all, Katie.

Nish Kumar That’s the British side. What about the Asian side? I don’t hear that she’s related to Mahatma Gandhi, Jawalal Nehru, Imran Khan, or Romesh.

Coco Khan Romesh?

Nish Kumar Sri Lankan.

Coco Khan Yeah, no, I’ve. I appreciate that comprehensive.

Nish Kumar He hasn’t. I haven’t heard any relations from any South Asian countries. Next week, join us for our exclusive episode, is Katy Perry Indian.