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Before Kash Patel, Dan Bongino and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. were prominent members of the Trump Administration (FBI Director, FBI Deputy Director and Health and Human Services Secretary, respectively), they were conspiracy theorists. But now that these men hold positions of power in the government, the various conspiracies they pushed are coming back to haunt them. Because their longtime supporters want them to act on all the wild claims they made. Will Sommer, a senior writer at The Bulwark and author of the ‘False Flag’ newsletter, talks about the tension within the online community that propelled these men to power.

And in headlines: President Donald Trump issued a bunch of pardons for tax cheats, Elon Musk said the GOP’s ‘Big Beautiful Bill’ undermines the work he did at DOGE, and White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller reportedly wants more deportations.

Show Notes:

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• Subscribe to the What A Day Newsletter – https://tinyurl.com/3kk4nyz8
• What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcast
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• For a transcript of this episode, please visit crooked.com/whataday

TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Thursday, May 29th, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show wondering what being trapped on a Delta flight from Minneapolis, Minnesota to Madison, Wisconsin must have been like for two pigeons. Being a bird trapped on an airplane must be profoundly confusing, is what I’m saying. [music break] On today’s show, it’s Pardon Palooza, over at the White House. And Elon Musk says President Donald Trump’s big beautiful bill undermines the work he did at DOGE. Sad. But let’s start out by talking about conspiracy theories and the people who believe them. I’ve reported on conspiracy theorists and their ideas for years. And before Kash Patel, Dan Bongino, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. were prominent members of the Trump administration as director of the FBI, deputy director of the FBI, and secretary of Health and Human Services respectively, they were conspiracy theorists. And now the conspiracies they pushed are coming back to haunt them in the sense that their fans are very upset that now that these men are in power they’re not doing more about the conspiracies they pushed to get there. Take Patel, who was on with Fox News’ Brett Baier late Wednesday. He was asked for what feels like the millionth time to explain why he believes financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide, despite for years raising questions about the case and why government officials weren’t releasing what he called the Epstein files. Patel seemed annoyed about the whole thing. 

[clip of Brett Baier] But there is a lot of conspiracy theories out there. 

[clip of Kash Patel] There are! 

[clip of Brett Baier] The Epstein thing, you dealt with Maria, you said, as far as you know, he killed himself. 

[clip of Kash Patel] I’m telling you, he killed himself. 

Jane Coaston: He’s telling you, Bongino is facing the same problem. Before he became Patel’s deputy at the FBI, he used his podcast to repeatedly push conspiracies around Epstein’s death. Now he also says the disgraced financier’s death is cut and dry and his supporters are apoplectic. And then there’s Kennedy. You probably know about his long, long, long history of conspiracy theories around vaccines and autism, but maybe you didn’t know about the time in 2023 he said, COVID-19 was quote. “Ethnically targeted to sicken Black people, but avoid Ashkenazi Jewish people.” But now that Kennedy’s got the top health care job in the United States government, it’s not enough that he’s rolling back COVID vaccine recommendations and investigating what he called the, quote, “environmental toxins” that he believes cause autism. His longtime anti-vax supporters want more. Take Del Bigtree, who served as R.F.K. Jr.’s communications director during his 2024 presidential run and is a huge anti-vaccine skeptic himself. He announced this month he’s stepping down as head of MAHA Action, a nonprofit that supports Kennedy’s Make America Healthy Again agenda. And while Bigtree didn’t outwardly criticize Kennedy, here’s what he said on his podcast about the decision. 

[clip of Del Bigtree] I need to be able to sue the government, even if it’s Robert Kennedy Jr. That’s just how we’re wired. And I recognize the Robert Kennedy Junior and the team around him. They’re in government. They are in the swamp and they have to play chess, as we’ve said, the 5D chess and all of it, but I am not a chess player. I am a truth teller. 

Jane Coaston: Sure. But seriously, what happens when the most conspiracy-minded people in America get what they’ve always wanted? It turns out they’re still furious, but now they’re furious at the very people they used to support, like Kash Patel, Dan Bongino, and R.F.K. Jr. Now what? So, to talk about that tension, I spoke with Will Sommer. He’s a senior writer at The Bulwark, and he writes the false flag newsletter about the online community that now plays a key role running the U.S. Government. Will, welcome to What a Day. 

Will Sommer: Hey, thanks for having me. 

Jane Coaston: So Will, you recently wrote about how Make America Healthy Again acolytes are furious at Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., why? 

Will Sommer: Sure, so there’s this divide within the MAHA world, and it sort of breaks down on the kind of old school RFK fans who really like kind of made them in politics, the anti-vaccine people, um and these sort of more, you know, less politically radioactive people who say, you know why don’t we just like clean up the food supply, have people eat more organic food, stuff like that. Um. And the former group sees the food people as sort of a distraction, like they’re on a wild goose chase and they’re concerned that RFK is focusing too much on things like getting artificial dyes out of potato chips. 

Jane Coaston: But Kennedy is doing a lot of what the anti-vaxxers want. Um. You know, just this week he severely rolled back recommendations for COVID vaccines. He’s pushing new testing requirements on future vaccines. He’s only had the job for a few months. What were they expecting? 

Will Sommer: You know, it’s interesting. I mean, they’re very demanding. I think it’s fair to say, I mean it, it is truly bizarre. I mean these situations where he has to sort of through gridded teeth, give a kind of half-hearted endorsement of vaccines. Uh, in the case of the, there was a Texas measles outbreak after the second child there died. And he said, well, okay, the measles vaccine does stop the spread of measles, and maybe people should consider getting it. And that infuriated his fans. Um. And so this is kind of the upside down world that they’re operating in. 

Jane Coaston: Something I keep thinking about is how R.F.K. Junior, FBI Director Kash Patel, FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino, all of these people were not just the favored voices of right-leaning conspiracy theorists, right-left leaning if you’re R. F. K. Junior. They were conspiracy theorist themselves. So how are we seeing the expectations of their fan bases and maybe to some extent their own expectations of what they thought they’d be able to achieve working inside the government, butt up against the reality of working in government? 

Will Sommer: Yeah, I mean, it’s always interesting when you have these people who live in or sort of urge their fans to live in a sort of fantasy world whenever they run into reality and you know, we can look at right wing media with with Fox claimed the election was stolen up until the dominion settlement uh or in this case, with these guys saying all this stuff about, you know the deep state bureaucrats running the government or vaccines or what have you. Um. And then when they get in government and actually have some amount of responsibility, they have to say, well, maybe I shouldn’t promote a measles pandemic. Or maybe I can’t really go arrest every Democrat on the street just by claiming that previously they were in a cabal. So it’s this interesting bind, and I think from my perspective, that’s when things really get intriguing because uh they have to kind of square the circle there on their beliefs. 

Jane Coaston: I think a great example is the case of Jeffrey Epstein, because I think his case is particularly telling. You have about five years of right-wing pundits telling their audiences that something big is coming that will prove the financier and sex offender was murdered and also obviously put all of their enemies in prison. And now the FBI, led by Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, the latter of which had multiple podcast episodes about how this is went all the way up to the top, who did this, so much conspiracy, And now they’re all like, Epstein died by suicide, there’s nothing more to it. What does that turnaround tell you and what have you been seeing in from their audiences reflecting on that? 

Will Sommer: You know, it’s funny, you would think that from the audience’s perspective, I mean, who could you trust to tell you the truth about Jeffrey Epstein? Well, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino. But when these guys come out and say, and I’m going to assume what they’re saying is the truth, since they would know, uh, when they come out and say you know, in Bongino’s case, sort of through gritted teeth, he’s very disappointed to deliver this news. Uh, the audience is furious. Um, you know they, for, for weeks now, you know, everything he tweets, people are saying, you know, why are you covering up for Jeffrey Epstein? And I should say Bongino tweets a lot because he’s constantly trying to mollify this audience. And so just earlier this week, he had to come out and say, okay, but he won’t even quite say it’s about Epstein, but it’s clearly what he’s referring to, he has to say, regarding the interview I did last week, I’m gonna come out with some more documents that kind of get at what we’re discussing. 

Jane Coaston: But you see this with conspiracy theories more broadly. Why can’t even these messengers, who for years their audience trusted on this, why are their claims not enough? 

Will Sommer: You know, I think the audience for right-wing media is just really used to getting what they want in terms of what people tell them. You know we see this in the Fox Dominion case where after they’re kind of living in this fantasy land and then when reality hits and Fox has to say, you know, Trump lost Arizona, the audience becomes furious and at Fox they know they can’t tell these people the truth without losing business. Or in this case, in the case of the FBI, they realize that they’re gonna lose popularity, that they are gonna be targeted, they’re going to be you know flagged as Republicans in name only if they you know don’t go along with these conspiracy theories. 

Jane Coaston: But unlike R.F.K. Junior, Bongino and Patel don’t seem to be throwing their conspiracy-minded bases as much red meat as you might think. Like, I think that when Patel got, you know, through confirmation, there definitely was a sense to me that I was like, okay, you know, he’s going to start going after people. But in a way, it’s been very like he just wants to watch hockey. He hasn’t even been offering the equivalent of beef tallow. 

Will Sommer: You know, it’s interesting, I think on one hand, they seem to really enjoy running the FBI. I mean, Kash Patel is doing a lot of, uh you know, he goes to the tactical village with the with the vest on and the gun. Um. On the other hand, I they are trying to pursue sort of conservative culture war things that are gonna be easier to achieve. After the backlash over their their comments debunking the Epstein conspiracy theory, that Bongino came out and said, well actually though, we are gonna put more resources on finding out for who took cocaine into the Biden White House and who was the secret January 6th pipe bomber, with the implication that, you know, that was some kind of false flag operation. So, I mean, they’re kind of trying to throw some red meat to the conspiracy theorists in ways that maybe are a little more achievable. 

Jane Coaston: So something that’s interesting to me is that this White House is torn between the conspiracy theories and their supporters, and I don’t know, more objective reality. And I think a lot of people made the comment that watching Dan Bongino try to talk about Jeffrey Epstein was like, you know, the dog caught the car. So how do you see these tensions being exacerbated going forward? We’re only four months into this administration and you already have all the conspiracy theorists who thought that this was their time. They finally achieved all of their goals. And they’re furious. 

Will Sommer: You know, it’s interesting. I mean, they are, in many cases, they’re getting a lot of things they wanted, but, but I think their demands were so extreme. The idea that, you know, Hillary Clinton would be imprisoned or, or, or things like that. And that is probably not going to happen. Um. So I think that there, you know, there’s going to be new conspiracy theories. I mean, I look back to 2017 when the Trump administration was bogged down with the Mueller probe and, you know, the wall wasn’t getting built. And what did they come up with? They came up with QAnon. That was really when it kicked off and it sort of presented a world that explained why the Trump base wasn’t getting what they wanted. And so I wonder if we’ll see that kind of like a new, a new sort of conspiracy theory to explain things. 

Jane Coaston: So for a lot of people listening, you know, the people who deeply oppose all of this, they might just want to dismiss all of these right wing conspiracy theories and just be like, that’s it. But as divorced from reality as it often is, why do you think it’s so important to pay attention to this stuff right now? 

Will Sommer: Yeah. I mean, look, these are the people who are influencing the government. I mean I agree. This sounds, stuff is often totally crazy. Uh, but at the same time, you know, Laura Loomer, one of these activists, I mean she purged the national security council. I mean these people have a lot of influence and they’re able to do things like get people pardoned, to sink legislation, change government policy. And often it is kind of on the basis of what’s really nonsense, but it happens anyway. And so I think that’s why we have to be aware of what these people are talking about among themselves. 

Jane Coaston: Will, thank you so much for joining me. 

Will Sommer: Thanks for having me. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Will Sommer, senior writer at The Bulwark. We’ll link to his newsletter in our show notes. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines.

[clip of unnamed journalist] Will you pardon the people who are accused of conspiring to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer? 

[clip of President Donald Trump] I’m going to look at it. I will take a look at it. It’s been brought to my attention. 

Jane Coaston: President Trump said Wednesday he watched that trial and that it looked to him, quote, “like somewhat of a railroad job.” But taking a look at pardoning men convicted in a plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan is just part of Trump’s recent pardon palooza. According to the Justice Department, Trump pardoned a former Virginia sheriff, Scott Howard Jenkins, on Tuesday. Jenkins was convicted last year on federal fraud and bribery charges for selling deputy badges to rich businessmen. He never served a day in jail. Also on Tuesday, Trump pardoned James Callahan, a labor union leader who pleaded guilty to failing to report gifts from an advertising firm. And on Wednesday, a White House official said Trump pardoned former Republican Representative Michael Graham of New York. He had pleaded guilty to tax fraud. Trump swiped the pardon pen for Todd and Julie Chrisley who are best known for starring on USA Network’s Chrisley Knows Best. The couple was convicted of fraud and tax evasion. Are we sensing a pattern here? Cha-ching, cha-ching. Anything? Their daughter Savannah, spoke to reporters on Wednesday outside of the Florida detention center where her father had been held. 

[clip of Savannah Chrisley] This process has been absolutely insane, and I’m just so grateful that I’m gonna leave here with my dad. 

Jane Coaston: Savannah, a Trump supporter, had lobbied for her parents’ release. And then there’s the man who pleaded guilty to tax crimes and was pardoned in April. According to the New York Times, Paul Walczak was pardoned less than a month after his mom attended a fundraiser at Mar-a-Lago. The Times reports it was a $1 million per person fundraising dinner. If Sheriff Jenkins was a cash-for-badges scheme, perhaps we’re witnessing a pay-to-pardon scheme. White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller has reportedly demanded that immigration officials arrest 3,000 people per day amid the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown. Axios says that’s triple the amount of daily arrests made by ICE during the first weeks of Trump’s presidency. According to an exclusive report from the outlet on Wednesday, Miller pushed the new aggressive quota last week during a tense meeting at Immigration and Customs Enforcement headquarters in D.C. The outlet said he, quote, “yelled at senior officials over their arrest and deportation numbers.” Honestly, I’d be more surprised if he didn’t yell. Yelling is kind of his whole thing. Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem was also at the meeting. She echoed Miller’s push for more arrests. According to data from earlier this month, ICE has nearly 49,000 people in its custody. That’s way more people than the agency can afford to accommodate with its current budget. Sources told Axios this wasn’t the first time Miller has lost his cool with ICE leaders. Some said they left last week’s meeting worried they could lose their jobs if they don’t meet their new quota. Again, shocking. 

[clip of Elon Musk] I was like, disappointed to see the massive spending bill frankly. Which increases the budget deficit but not doesn’t decrease it, and underminds the work that the DOGE team is doing. 

Jane Coaston: Oh no, anything but that. Elon Musk criticized President Trump’s big, beautiful bill in a clip from an upcoming interview with CBS Sunday Morning that was released on Tuesday. 

[clip of Elon Musk] I think a bill can be big or it could be beautiful, but I don’t know if it could be both. 

Jane Coaston: Trump, who’s been advocating for the bill, was asked for his reaction to Musk’s criticism while speaking to reporters in the Oval Office Wednesday. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] We will be negotiating that bill, and I’m not happy about certain aspects of it, but I’m thrilled by other aspects of that. That’s the way they go. It’s very big. It’s the big, beautiful bill, but the beautiful is because of all of the things we have. 

Jane Coaston: Inspiring. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the tax provisions of the package would increase the deficit by nearly $4 trillion over a decade. Republicans pushed the bill through the House last week. It’s now in the Senate. The Kremlin has proposed that Russian and Ukrainian officials meet next week for another round of direct peace talks. Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, put out a statement Wednesday suggesting that the two sides hold more talks in Istanbul. Delegations from Russia and Ukraine met there earlier this month. The two sides failed to reach a ceasefire agreement, but they agreed to prepare memorandums of their conditions for a peace deal. According to an exclusive report from Reuters, the Kremlin’s wish list includes a promise that Western leaders will stop expanding NATO further east and lift some of their sanctions on Russia. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters Tuesday that Russia has assembled more than 50,000 troops near the northeastern Ukrainian region of Sumy. He claimed that the Kremlin is preparing an offensive in the area to create a buffer zone. And that’s the news. [music break] Before we go, hello WAD listeners and viewers. What a Day will be live at the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival on May 31st in downtown Seattle. That’s this Saturday. I’ll be interviewing former Senator, comedian, and Saturday Night Live writer Al Franken, and it’s a conversation you are not going to want to miss. The rest of the lineup at the festival includes guests like CNN anchor Jake Tapper, former Republican Senator Jeff Flake, Washington’s own Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, plus Amanda Knox and a ton of other live podcasts like Criminal and Radiolab. If you’re in the area, come see us. You can get tickets and find out more at CascadePBS.org/festival. [music break] That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, think kind thoughts for Ohio Republicans who might be forced to choose between former Ohio State football coach Jim Trussell and former DOGE Guy and MAGA enthusiast Vivek Ramaswamy for Governor and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how literally the only force on earth that could make me vote for an Ohio State football coach is Vivek Ramaswamy, like, the only one, like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston and Sherrod Brown, are you busy or anything? [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Fohr. Our producer is Michell Eloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.