Biden is out of the presidential race, Harris is in the running toward the Democratic nomination, Amber Rose is off the rocker at the RNC, and more on this episode of Unprecedented Times.

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Watch Amber Rose’s speech at the Republican National Convention

Harris campaign raises a record $81 million in 24 hours
Why did the RNC cover up Amber Rose’s tattoo?

How to pronounce the new Democratic presidential frontrunner’s name

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TRANSCRIPT

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, we have De’Ara, Myles, and Don. Kaya, we miss you. And as you can imagine, we’re talking about this wild week. But we’ll start with intros. I am DeRay at @deray on Twitter. 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram. 

De’Ara Balenger: And this is De’Ara Balenger.. You can find me at @Dearabalenger, on Instagram. 

Don Calloway: Don Calloway, at @DCalloway, and at @thecaucusroomDC on Instagram. 

DeRay Mckesson: It feels like so much has happened since the last time we talked. It was the RNC wildness, we get JD Vance. I will just say I called it that he was going to be the vice presidential nominee. 

Myles E. Johnson: You did. 

DeRay Mckesson: And then we get a Sunday night announcement of Joe Biden stepping down and Kamala Harris being on the path to being the nominee. I’ll just ask the first simple question, where were you when you found out Joe Biden stepped down? I was getting dressed in the gym, going home, and I saw a text and I was like, is this letter real? Was it on Twitter? 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: And they were like, no, no, it was real. And I’m like going on Twitter. Like he really resigned the presidency on Twitter. This is really 2024. I was I was like, okay, here we go. And the people in the gym, you know, I got to tell somebody. So there’s this one guy and I’m like, I’m like, Biden stepped down. [laughing] Looking crazy in the in the locker room, don’t got nobody to talk to. But this one guy who I don’t even know his name, but I see him a lot, I’m like, Biden stepped down. And then I started making calls. But where were y’all when y’all found out?

Myles E. Johnson: I was in the bed, and then my partner came in in regular my partner fashion. He was like, child you heard the news about your president? And I kind of got really nervous [laughter] I was like, oh my God, Lord. But then it was better news for me. I was like, I was happy to hear about it. But that’s how I found out. 

De’Ara Balenger: I was getting ready to get on my zoom call for the party’s credentials committee, which I’m on because I’m a delegate for New York State. And so our call was at 2 p.m., and I think the announcement came out at like 1:45. So I was like, uh what’s happening? But let me tell you that Marcia Fudge ran that meeting with such grace and dignity that you would think we’re all cool as cucumbers. I was like, oh, if she’s in control and in charge, we alright. So she is co-chair of the credentials committee. And Jamie Harrison said some words at the top that I think are now, obviously there were press on that call because I think that snippet of Jamie is now sort of everywhere. And he gave some words, some thoughtful words about Joe Biden, but was also just they were like, we’re going to have a process to make Kamala Harris the nominee and bada bing, bada boom. So that’s where I was. It’s very exciting. 

Don Calloway: Yeah, I was uh, post church brunch with my sons who are 15 and 12. So it was cool to kind of get it with them and be able to talk and debrief. And at 15, the older one was immediately like, ah she can’t win. But we had been practicing this over the last couple of weeks as we kind of thought that it would happen and the nominee should be her. So we spent the next hour kind of talking about how to challenge people’s notions that she just can’t win, can’t win. And so, you know, I wake up today, I will spread the gospel that she absolutely can win for the next 107 days or whatever it is, because I, you know, after last night’s engagement, I genuinely believe it, that she can. 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay, before we start talking about the Kamala moment, which there’s a lot to talk about, thoughts about Trump and the RNC, we did not talk about the convention the last time we were together because it hadn’t happened really. And Trump gave, as you know, the 50 plus minute speech, we get Hulk Hogan, we got a lot of the seemingly botoxed JD Vance. There’s a lot going on at the convention. De’Ara has already said that she thought it was well produced, if nothing more, and they doubled down on their bigotry in good fonts and good colors. Um. What did y’all think? 

Myles E. Johnson: It was so strange. I think the part that I was most just perplexed by was Amber Rose. I think that that probably took everybody by storm. [laughing]

DeRay Mckesson: I forgot all about Amber Rose till you just said it. Forgot about her. 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m never gonna forget. I’m like, now how I just want to know what the check was. What was your number my sister. My sibling. Yeah. I was just so perplexed. Everything is really odd. I wish I had better words for how weird everything feels at that RNC, and and how it feels as though we’re watching something. I always go back to Boots Riley and the director who did um Sorry to Bother you and how Boots Riley really created this mockery of a world to critique capitalism and critique hyper consumerism. And the more years that go by, the more that world doesn’t feel like a mockery that he created. It just feels just more and more like a hyper realistic reflection of the world we’re in. And I think something about seeing Amber Rose in a video rapping to a sampled Vanilla Ice song and rapping, Trump, Trump baby. I’m like, we’re here with it. We’re here. [laughter] That’s the thing that keeps on ringing through my ear. And the last thing that I kind of talked to you all about in the group chat is that I think one of the things while I was watching it, what I understood is getting somebody like Amber Rose is so much about convincing the other people, people who are already to the right but haven’t been sold on Trump, that there is some type of revolution going on. So it’s really not about the legitimacy of Amber Rose or who cares about her talking points. It’s just that we have another person who was hugged up in hip hop and this type of left Hollywood elite scene, and now she’s with Trump, you know, and that kind of sells this bigger reality that there is some type of conspiracy against Trump. And Trump is really selling us on stuff. And I think that’s the use of people like her, because obviously it’s not because of her political influence. 

DeRay Mckesson: One of the things I thought was fascinating about Amber Rose is how they edited out the tattoo on her forehead. Did you see that? 

Myles E. Johnson: No, I did not see that. They edited it out or she put makeup on it? 

DeRay Mckesson: I no, I think they edited her out like in the images that they put out. You can’t see it. 

Myles E. Johnson: [laughing] That’s wild to me. And also, I don’t always get it. It’s so weird because I’m like, no, the stranger her moment is visually the more it sells, the fact that somebody like Candace Owens and Amber Rose and JD Vance is behind this person. And really, to me, I can see that it sells this paranoid reality that Trump is trying to sell to his base. I’m like, just let her have that forehead tattoo and look nuts and add that to your diversity points. 

DeRay Mckesson: Don?

Don Calloway: Well I think that the best talker in the Democratic space right now is a rapper from South Florida named Plies. He’s killing it on Instagram. He’s giving people plain speak in a very relatable way, and he’s been doing it for several years. But he’s recently got into politics. He started around with the Fani stuff in Atlanta, and he’s just been absolutely killing it. And the Democratic Party will never invite Plies onto an official platform and into our talkarati because we’re so concerned with credentials and, oh, he’s a rapper. We would never even though he’s actually saying good things. And oh, by the way, Plies went to Miami over Ohio. I see the exact opposite in inviting not only an Amber Rose, but a Hulk Hogan up to share the dais with the professional politicians, because at the end of the day, Republicans know that it’s about addition. It’s about who can I bring, who has influence with a whole bunch of people, whether or not we find them intellectual, whether or not we find them prestigious, whether or not we think their experience is relevant. They can have the ability to influence a person to vote for our side of this thing, and that’s all that matters. And Democrats have lost that game for a long time because of the weird, pseudo invisible barriers to entry that we place between the public sphere and who we allowed to participate in it. Amber Rose is an idiot, but Amber Rose has 25 million followers, and ten of them might decide to vote Trump. And that means something at a battle of the margins in which Trump is so unlikable, so highly unfavorable, and Democrats are battling between whether or not to sit on the couch or vote for Kamala, who, you know, they’re going to be dealing with all types of misinformation about. And so I just think it speaks something to the fundamental nature of who each party allows to participate. Of course, Amber Rose and of course Black people. And of course, young women of color won’t have a substantive voice in a Trump administration. But there’s something about marketing to middle America and people who feel excluded and people who have not participated that Republicans seem to understand that Democrats have no grasp of whatsoever. 

Myles E. Johnson: To your point, I think that they like the silliness. I think they like the irreverence. I think they like the just how Trump is doing everything. I think that Democrats need prestige, and I don’t think that Democrats can totally cut and copy and paste what Republicans are doing, because I do think having somebody like Plies, who you know, I’m from Atlanta. [laugh] Like having somebody like Plies with his background, with things that he said that people can see as all types of phobics and stuff like that. I think that we are not as loose and not as entertained by people using the politics as circus. I think we have to be smarter about it. So I do get how come Democrats can’t just copy and paste that formula, because Trump’s constituency loves that silliness and loves that circus. And we like the normalcy. And I’ll talk for myself as somebody who I still consider myself somebody’s Democrat. I like somebody who’s a little bit smarter than me. I like somebody who’s more boring than me. I like somebody who doesn’t make jokes. I don’t need for you to feel like we can make jokes with you. I like that, and I still think that Democrats are still trying to find that balance of relatability. 

Don Calloway: I understand why we’re like this. I’m just saying, I wonder if it’s the best strategy in a universe where we need to draw people in to participating and punching a democratic lever. 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

De’Ara Balenger: In ’16, when I was working on Hillary’s campaign and I, like, made up my job, I was director of engagement. It was all made up. But what that job allowed me to do was to expand the tent. Right? Because to your point. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

De’Ara Balenger: The problem with Democrats, elite Democrats. And I think one of the issues that has plagued the Biden folks is that they think they’re doing people a favor. So to get invited to the White House, you already have to show that you’ve had some level of loyalty when that really isn’t what this is about. Like your job as the head public servant is to continually build and cultivate relationships with everybody. So it shouldn’t be that I’m lucky to be invited to the White House. It should be we are a party for the people, and we are trying to expand this tent for our people as much as we can. And so in ’16, when it was like, yup, Karen Civil. Yup. Pusha T, yup NAS yup. I was trying to as much as I can invite folks, Don to your point, who weren’t typically invited in. Why? Because I saw that as my responsibility working on a presidential campaign in the Democratic party. So I would implore those who are working on this campaign who look like us to push harder, because it ain’t that hard. Because I did it. To push harder when it comes to expanding that tent, you know? And I love them. So we’re not just going to carry Washington Common, etc. to be sort of, you know, the respectable surrogates. It’s like, go to everybody and people get mad and I’ll start a whole thing with this. People get mad about Ice Cube and all of that. I guarantee you, he tried to talk to the Democrats and nobody would talk to him. Guarantee. 

DeRay Mckesson: And De’Ara, I’m interested in the influencer thing you’re talking about because did you see Amanda Seales on the heels of the call and Don, De’Ara was on the call. She was one of the 44,000 last night on the zoom call. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: [?] Black women that [?] did, but Amanda Seales did a video that was like um, she needs to ask Kamala if this is a racist country before she’ll support her. 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah, but I think part of it is like, this is the White House that should have been in cultivating these relationships these past years. I mean, and DeRay, we know this too from ’16 with Hillary and Black Lives Matter. It was like we were like, yes, she is going to have the conversation. I think other candidates maybe would not be open to the conversation, but the fact that we need to be having these conversations with folks that aren’t radical, which are they’re just saying, don’t kill Black people, like all this is new. Like when we look back at this and we look back at, like, activism and activists coming to the White House, like, I mean, I remember with, with Obama even, it was like, who’s invited and who’s not? You know? 

Don Calloway: I got nothing nice to say for all of you blue check Negroes. 

Myles E. Johnson: Listen, I am who I am. So, you know, it takes a lot for me to say something like this. But when I saw Amanda say that, I was wondering what was going through her head. Because putting Kamala in a situation to answer a question. And I say things all the time that I know are leftist, radical, won’t probably be answered, or ever get a chance to be asked to do a president or or a sitting president. And her framing everything that’s going on in her first question being, are we in a racist country and asking that to Kamala that just felt so, [sigh] I don’t have a better word it felt just like an elementary understanding of what Kamala’s use is right now. And I feel like if you’re a leftist, if you are in the um, far left of politics, like I usually tend to lean towards, I think even like I know that that is just a useless question. You know, she’s not going to be able to answer it. You know that she might not even have the answer that you’re looking for. Because for somebody to be able to participate in electoral politics like that, they kind of have to not believe that. And if they do believe that, they damn sure can’t say it. And I think even making that, activating your platform to make that be the question, I just feel like we’re already losing sight of the utilization of Kamala, which is to block Trump from being president. It’s not for her to right centuries of white supremacist wrongs, and that that’s just not happening. I had a little bit of like Obama flashback with her saying that where I’m like, out of all the presidents, why would he be the first one? He’s the Black one. He’s gonna veer off from those questions as much as possible. He just got in. 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod save the People is coming. 

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Don, I’m interested in what you have to say. Before we get to you Don. I love Myles that you call her Kamala. [laughing] I love it. It’s like such a good example of how Black people just say her name any type of way that makes sense to them. 

Myles E. Johnson: So how you say that woman’s name? Kamala. Kamala. [laughing]

Don Calloway: It’s Kamala.

Myles E. Johnson: Kamala?

Don Calloway: Kamala. And it’s important that we get that right. 

DeRay Mckesson: But Myles is saying it with love. You know, it’s like y’all aunties get your name wrong like they say your name with their own inflection and I your aunties and uncles, I love it. Okay Don, what you got? 

Myles E. Johnson: If she was around a little bit more. I wouldknow her name, but she’s gonna do better now. [laugh]

Don Calloway: One of the intentional tactics that I’m seeing on the far right who call her all types of things is Kamala, Kamal– and they, you know, as Biggie said, make her name taste like ass when they speak it. But they do it very intentionally. And that’s the pronunciation. And Kamala was the Ugandan giant in WWE, WWF that we all grew up watching. He was this incredibly insulting character of an African wrestler, as you probably recall. And there’s this weird psychological recall of men in our generation, Kamala, Kamala. And they say it in such a weird and pernicious way. So I’m just trying to make sure that all of our family gets it right. It’s Kamala, Kamala, Kamala, a very common Indian name. And uh, yeah, that’s how you say it. And that’s not to you Myles. That’s more because I’ve heard them saying it in a kind of semi violent way. 

Myles E. Johnson: And thank you, because I do watch a lot of conservative stuff. Like a lot like probably half my media news diet is conservative stuff. So that’s probably also informed by me hearing them saying it like that too. So thank you. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

Myles E. Johnson: For the correction. 

Don Calloway: Oh it’s all good. So I I’ll just say this and and I’ll be really brief here. You know um, this is a moment of national service. Not all of us felt compelled to go to the military. Not all of us have felt compelled, you know, to be a public school teacher or what? But, you know, for 107 days, everybody needs to commit to this. And I know it sounds everybody’s saying save our democracy, but this is that, right? This is that for the next 107 days. So I talk to the people, like the four of us who have some spheres of influence and might consider themselves among the political elites. Listen. I don’t give a fuck about seeing you went to the reception. Something really weird happened on social media yesterday, as tends to happen in Black Instagram in moments like this. First of all, everybody posts their picture with Kamala to prove you knew her. And the more in your reel with different outfits. Hey, I guess you showed up multiple times then you okay? Cool. You know her. No, nigga so the fuck what? Right? And forgive me for cursing on y’all’s wonderful platform. [laughter] For all these so-called influencers. Negrorati, we do not have time for the performative nature over these next 107 days. This is it, right? If you are influential, if you think you got some power, you think you got some juice. You think you know some people. None of that matters. If you can’t beat Trump. Matter of fact, some of y’all running for office need to suspend your little campaigns, running for a nonpartisan or an all Democratic city council or state rep seat in which you trying to land a spot in the super minority. If you are of political knowledge and talent right now, the bigger picture is trying to make sure Kamala Harris beats Trump. If you are somebody who thinks you got a dollar, you need to do something other than donate $1,500 so you can get a picture and show you went to a fundraiser. If you got some money, then, hey, take this two months off and get in the streets and engage. This is the moment for national service, and that service will probably come with some form of sacrifice. And you blue check folks messing around in this politics. If we can’t get what you got and marshal resources, primarily your own human capital, your own individual time to beat Trump after we know what’s capable, what he’s capable of, and we know what his actual plans are, then I don’t ever want to hear nobody even no blue check talking I don’t don’t you never post no picture because [laughter] I’m underneath trolling.

DeRay Mckesson: So that gets us to the question that has been the question for the last 24 hours. And while we’re on this call um, it was announced by ActBlue that it is the most dollars ever in a single day to pass through ActBlue was Kamala’s announcement, and the announcement around Kamala so that just got announced. The question for you all is can Kamala win? 

Myles E. Johnson: I think she can win. I think she can win. More than anything I hope that she can win. I think right now what I’m most interested in is probably August. You you all can tell me more. Like I think that she can definitely, definitely, definitely win if there are some counter narratives to her history as a prosecutor. I think that she definitely has a chance. I think that once there are some soulful pushbacks to her as a president, that are going to probably come from the left. I think that if the answer is shut up and vote for her because we don’t want Trump. I think that might get a little scary, but I think if people really think hard about counter narratives or counter arguments to those arguments that are just as soulful, she can definitely activate a lot of different people. I think that she has the capacity to activate a lot more people on the left. So I think as long as she finds a way to skate past that, then I think there’s reason to be optimistic. 

De’Ara Balenger: I just want to touch on the prosecutor thing as somebody who was a prosecutor. It didn’t last long for me, but I was a prosecutor in Miami Dade County. Our intern class was 60. I think there were four of us that were Black. Two of us that were Black Americans. Cause I think one of the gals was first generation Haitian. Anyway, now you know if you are a Black defendant. You know what you want to see in the courtroom when you enter it? 

[spoken by De’Ara and Don Calloway] A Black prosecutor. 

Don Calloway: You do.

De’Ara Balenger: Just think about it. And I say that because if you are a prosecutor with compassion and competency, as I was, I often had to do the job of a prosecutor and the public defense because the public defender oftentimes was ill equipped and unprepared. And I can only talk about my experience in Miami, but that’s what it was. So I had to do both jobs, and I had to do that in front of Republican appointed judges. And so in my courtroom, if the police report read suspicious Black male, I was throwing that case out, because is that probable cause? Not to me. So I say that all to say, I think we put a lot into a narrative around what a prosecutor is, particularly what a Black prosecutor is. And I’m not saying that all Black prosecutors are like this, but I’m saying as a graduate of Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University, what kind of values I left that school with when I went to become a prosecutor, the values that one of my best friends has as head homicide prosecutor in West Palm Beach, where homicides are through the roof. This is the system we have right now, and we need to have folks who look like us in that system. And I think the assumptions we make about those folks are unfair, and there it’s part of the public narrative. But as much as I can, I want to talk about what my experience was and some of the same sort of value and mirroring that I’ve seen. And now our presidential candidate. During her career as a prosecutor and as an attorney general. So I agree with you, Myles. I think there’s so much stigma, rightfully so, attached to being a prosecutor. But I can only I can speak to what my experience was and the power I had in that courtroom when I could say, you go home, you go home, you go home, you go home. You know what I’m saying? 

Myles E. Johnson: She should talk about that. Because I think, and I don’t know if these things are the truth or lies. I’m assuming they’re probably exaggerated untruths. But the idea that she got a large amount of Black men prosecuted for marijuana possession, the fact that on the left mass incarceration has been such a big deal, these are topics that we really cared about. That was, I remember um the Hillary Clinton thing with the super predator comments and stuff like that. And, you know, I know that there were Black people on the left who are endorsing her saying those things. So I think that there just needs to be a counter-narrative of of saying, this is what I was doing while I was a prosecutor, because those lies, or even those truths that are now exaggerating the whole thing, can really sink her ship. So I think just having that, uh narrative around this is what I was doing. 

De’Ara Balenger: And she was one of the people in California that led legalization of marijuana. And obviously, there’s all kinds of things we can say around that. But she was. So I think you’re right. 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

De’Ara Balenger: I think it is having that narrative around that and also like something smart. And that sort of also draws in the humanity of it, if possible. 

DeRay Mckesson: I do think on this, and I’m interested in everybody’s comment on the can she win? The policing is so interesting to me. I do think what the federal government people like, they don’t hit right narratively. And I’ll I’ll tell you the anniversary of George Floyd’s death. I’m on the news and people the reporters are talking to me and the reporters don’t even realize that the president doesn’t run local police departments like they literally just don’t. The re– I say it and the reporter is like, what? There are 18,000 police departments, the president controls exactly zero of them. The president controls border control, the DEA, the ATF, the FBI, ICE. None of those people are the local police depar– they just are not. So the single biggest thing the president could do is fund police departments, and they can pass policies that model for other agencies. But one of the things, I’m in communities that people are like, well, you know, this is one of the saving graces about the Trump presidency. He couldn’t do nothing to the local police departments, thank goodness. You know what I mean? Like, and I do think there’s a part of it where people misunderstand the power of the presidency with regard to public safety. And, you know, when I think about mass incarceration, does anybody know the part of the the carceral state that incarcerates the least amount of people? It is the federal government. So you could let every single person out of prison who is federally incarcerated, and it will not change the mass part of mass incarceration. It’ll still be two million people incarcerated if you let all of those people out. Why? Because states incarcerate more people than everybody else, and then cities and then the federal government. It’s like less than 300,000 people are incarcerated in the federal system. There are 2.3 million people incarcerated in a given day. And that’s not to let anybody off the hook, but it is to help people understand where the power lies and where it doesn’t. 

Myles E. Johnson: I think that’s such a good point. I think for me, the other other question is, and I feel like you kind of answered it, but like, how do the tanks get to the local cops? So so how do certain places have these kind of like national militaristic uh options if the federal government is not involved with it? I think even explaining that and figuring out like we see things getting bigger and bigger when we talk about Cop City, when we talk the militarization of the um, of the cops, we see things getting bigger and bigger. And I think that we haven’t necessarily got those clear answers that you just like, articulated about, like, what where do we actually go with these problems? How do we actually fix these problems, slow this militarization down, and also figure out what a police reform or prison reform looks like in our, like, within our lifetimes?

DeRay Mckesson: And let’s go to you Don. The answer to that question, Myles, is that the federal commit definitely funds gives the money to police departments to spend. 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

DeRay Mckesson: But it’s your governor and mayor who are buying the tanks. Do you know what I mean? It’s not it just that is true. It’s your governor and your mayor and your city council who’s authorizing the expenditure of all these funds. They could spend it a million different ways. It is your people who are doing it. Don, can she win? 

Don Calloway: [laugh] It’s important to understand that any politician of any appreciable level of experience at this point in their career, 50 years old plus hell I’m 44 plus, you have some objectionable votes because in their lifetime, the Overton window on public policy positions has shifted. So a Kamala Harris, who is in her mid 50s, came up in politics in a time in which tough on crime was the way. Now she wrote a book called Smart on Crime, so she was part of the evolution about it. But if you open the hood on any politician who is in a position now to compete for the presidency or the United States Senate or governors seats, you’re going to see a lot that you don’t like. Because when they came of age, things were not where they were now. Barack Obama was not in favor of same sex marriage when he went to the United States Senate in 2004. And so people evolve as the public, and what’s right forces politicians positions to evolve. That’s why on the left, particularly not this year, but in leftist politics in general, we have to recognize that we are the party of the big tent, and we cannot aim to fall in love with any candidate because you’ll fail those purity tests every time. Meanwhile, the right is not looking for purity tests. They’re looking for people to fall in line behind the people who are going to maintain a homogenous, white male supremacist hegemony, if you will. Right? So we have so many different interests and so many different animating factors within the big tent of the left, that there’s not one candidate that we’re all going to be in love with. So this is not the time to relitigate Kamala’s history as a prosecutor. This is the time to look for the person who was overall best fit to unify the party against beating that. Right? Because we understand what that is, and now they understand a lot more what they had the capacity and power to do, and they have a plan to execute on that from day one. And that’s not going to be good for anybody. So I’m not looking at anybody on the left or who would probably participate as a Democrat and say, shut up and vote for her. And I think the Democrats are very much in danger of doing that by keeping only the talkarati amongst these elite, you know, schooled voices and not expanding that. But I am saying we’re not going to love, we’re not going to love everything that comes out of anybody’s mouth. But we do need to pick a strong standard bearer, and I’m happy to see that right now it looks like we’re coalescing around that. Because wherever she is on Gaza, wherever she is on women’s rights, wherever she is on criminal justice is going to be leaps and bounds better than where Trump is. And the goal has got to be this time around to beat Trump. 

DeRay Mckesson: I’ll start with you, Don, though can she win? Because there are a set of people who really do believe, like, you know, the country is too sexist, or I’ve I’ve seen this narrative come up. Too sexist, too racist to vote for Kamala. Uh. There’s been a question of like, what votes does she get us that, you know, make this a worthy enterprise to go behind? That is not necessarily what I believe it is certainly not actually what I believe, but it is a enough people are saying it that I think we have to entertain it. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. You know, on the Democratic side, because we’re the party of the big tent, a candidate does not win elections. An organized broad coalition wins elections. So if we activate the organized, broad coalition in the way that we should have and we’re going to for Joe Biden, then yes, she can win. And we see in the last 24 hours she’s energized people, which is where you start. But if you look into what we were supposed to do, if you are a Black man, you were supposed to be talking to other Black men across socioeconomic spectrums, because I’m seeing rich Negroes, poor Negroes, and middle class Negroes saying that wrong type of crazy about she ain’t the one. Or she was a cop. Well, whatever. De’Ara just destroyed that right? If you’re a white woman, you need to, you know, put your ponytail in the bunch and get the Lululemon on and infiltrate the brunch circles, because you need to be talking to other white women and convince them that they ain’t got to do what they husbands did just this once. Or if you got to, lie and say you voted for Trump, but check the box with Kamala, he’ll never know. But if you’re a white woman, you need to talk to other white women. If you’re a white man, seven out of ten white men have always voted uh Republican since 1960. You need to talk to other white men, and you ain’t got to flip your whole Rotary Club. You ain’t got to flip your whole fantasy football league and get ostracized for the rest of your life, and you ain’t got to beat em over the head with it. But I guarantee you, one out of that seven is a decent human being. If you characterize this as a race between decency and indecency, I guarantee you one out of those seven white dudes, you can flip. You ain’t got to flip all of them. If you’re a Black woman, don’t dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back, Black girl magic, because you need to bring other Black women into the process. In a universe in which only 24% of Black people vote, that means it’s a whole lot of Black women who are not yet participating. So we have to get out of our own self-congratulatory bubbles. I’m gonna get killed in the comments for this, fine. But we have to get out of our own bubbles and understand that all of us have a role to play. If you’re in the LGBTQIA2S+ community, you need to talk to the Log Cabin motherfuckers and say, this ain’t the year for that. Because when they take away the rights, yours are gone too. And you ain’t Peter Theil, right? But at the end of the day, you know, there is a very small cohort universe of people who will run roughshod over everybody’s civil rights and liberties. And they are ten billionaires. And no white dude, they don’t care about you either, right? You are a worker bee employee, despite the fact that you have a two car garage and a peloton at home. So everybody has a role to play. And if everybody does their part, then Kamala can win. And that’s the metric. That is the plan. That is the roles for what everybody has to do here. And if you was going to do that, if you plan to do that, like you was going to do that for Biden, the answer is yes. She absolutely can. 

DeRay Mckesson: So, Don, what about Black men? There is this idea that there’s a sliver of Black men who are either supporting Trump, or definitely not supporting Kamala. What do you say to those, that demographic? 

Don Calloway: Yeah. Get on board. First of all, Trump is not the way. And we can go into all the substantive reasons for why Trump is not the guy. But the bottom line is that Donald Trump, he does not have some influx of support from Black men. You know, he had Kodak Black and Lil Pump. That’s what this was, right? And so let’s not let the theater of all of that convince us that there’s some type of mass exodus of Black men towards Trump. Now, we do need to be convinced to participate, right? And to participate, hopefully voting for Kamala. But it’s just simply false to suggest that anything other than a marginally insignificant number of Black men have just somehow barreled onto the Trump train. That’s just not the reality. But we do need to convince Black men to participate, because they have not seen their lives demonstrably improved on the everyday basis in a post Barack Obama era. 

DeRay Mckesson: De’Ara, can she win? 

De’Ara Balenger: I have been thinking about this since yesterday. Except, of course, I’ve been on the phone and in community with so many people. And this comes up for me when we talk about her VP pick. I as somebody who now has worked on three presidentials , has been in this Dem party for a long time, and now find myself just getting into this place of being unapologetic because so much about the Democratic Party is about sort of like politeness, right? Yes, she can win because she’s a Black woman, goddammit. And Black women who are organizing since this announcement happened are not playing around. So if we get out of our own way around spending all of our resources and also our mindset, our mindset is so set on, well, who are white people going to vote for? And if white people don’t vote for her, then she’s not going to get elected. I don’t care about y’all. I mean, I care about y’all from, like, a heart place, but, like, I’m so tired of sort of having to prioritize how I think about this intellectually, to support a community of people that I don’t know necessarily supports me. 

Don Calloway: That’s right. 

De’Ara Balenger: So how about yes she can win. How about Black women are going to 100% be behind her so that she can. And the Black men we’re talking about, the Black women are going to pull them to the polls like we always do. So for me, it’s a 100% yes. And I think if anything, if this party watched that RNC convention and thought to themselves, well, maybe we can get some of those people to vote for us. Waste of time. Waste of time. Start investing in this base. This base are there are, it’s Black folks, Latino folks that pulled him across the finish line in places like Arizona. Like if we keep if our orientation is, how do we get moderate white people to vote in this country if we continue to do that, if she picks a vice presidential candidate based off that, without any imagination, what are we doing? That’s what I have to say. 

Don Calloway: We’re doing what Democrats have done for the last 50 years, which is search for this elusive, uh white Middle American vote that has not gone with us for a long time. However, I think there’s a there’s a there’s a gentleman named George Goehl, G-O-E-H-L, who makes a really good road map to this idea that even the reddest of red states is 39% blue, right? So that’s six to four, Republican to Democrat. I need to flip one person in a room full of ten people. Right. And there’s somebody who has a gay cousin. There’s somebody who can’t afford prescription drugs. There’s somebody who has disabled folks. And we see what Trump feels about them, in their immediate family. There’s one person that can be flipped. Now the question is where do you adjust the bulk of your resources? Right? And you have to invest resources in these communities of color who have shown up for us over and over and allow them to expand the pie. But that’s why this is not Black women’s fight to win. That’s why this is not Black men’s fight to win. My my white brothers and it’s the guys I went to college with at the University of Missouri. It’s the guys I worked with at the big companies and practiced law with who are always in my texts. Man, I feel for you guys, bro. Man, we didn’t know he was going to be this bad. Well, this is your time to redeem yourself. Go get one. Go get one white dude. Because Alabama was blue in our lifetimes in 2010. Mississippi’s legislature was blue in 2010, in 2012. We have not lost the South forever. This is not unreachable. And so the answer is yes, she absolutely can win. But it’s going to take everybody to characterize this as not Kamala versus Trump, but as fundamental decency versus indecency. And I guarantee you, there are decent suburban, Middle American, even lower class white folks out there who can take a stand and get one person to vote against indecency. 

De’Ara Balenger: Don, I agree with that. But I think what ends up happening is the candidates end up sort of shrinking themselves, right? So that instead of just being authentic, instead of saying, this is what we stand for, this is where we are. It becomes, well, this is how I have to tweak my messaging. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

De’Ara Balenger: So that those folks feel included. 

Don Calloway: That’s right. 

De’Ara Balenger: And I think that’s where we messed up, because the thing about Donald Trump for folks is that people just believe him. They just believe him. They just believe him. But with us–

Don Calloway: That’s right. 

De’Ara Balenger: It’s always like, how can we, and now we got to say, nah, like put put a Howard sweatshirt on her and get her out there like. [laughing]

Don Calloway: And also listen, we shooting down all the B.S. today, right? So let’s shoot down this nonsense about the prosecutor. Great job on that. Hey, don’t let me hear nobody say she married to a white man. We’ve been knowing that. We’ve been had all these years. We sick about that. That’s fine, that’s fine. I know you don’t like to see it Dr. Umar. Hey, we ain’t got time to worry about that. We do not. I’m just telling you, stay out of the foolishness pits. Right. For the next 107 days, leave brother Doug alone and stay out of the bullshit, Black folk. 

DeRay Mckesson: Not brother Doug. Myles, can she win? And before you answer, um Don. You fired me up. Because in my mind, Alabama has always been red. 

Don Calloway: Yep. 

DeRay Mckesson: Mississippi’s always been red. Like, that’s how I think about them. So this idea that in our lifetime, they were blue. That’s my take away. I’m taking that away. In our lifetime. 

Don Calloway: Not in our lifetime. Ten years ago. 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. [laughter]. 

Don Calloway: Right? 

Myles E. Johnson: I don’t know, I’m just a little scared about how many people are activated because they don’t want to see a Black woman as the president. I don’t have the the answer or or anything. And I feel like Don kind of hinted at this, that it’s not really about what Black people are going to do. I think that we kind of usually vote pretty pragmatically. I think polls show that, and just history shows that. I do think about how many people. It’s just that like, it’s just symbolism. Here’s this old white man and this like young for a president, Black, a Black woman going against each other. And if we’re already talking about culture wars and racism again, I just think we’re a narrative driven society. And I think just the narratives just have to be really strong. I think that Obama had some privileges being the first. I think being a man also just being a unicorn, because who has those type of credentials in in general. So I just think that those narratives have to be really, really strong and really loud because this is such a symbolic. That’s why we even when people I don’t I saw a lot of people to me was a lot of people saying Michelle Obama. And I was like thinking to myself, I’m like, have we been occupying different nations? And maybe because I am from Georgia, and maybe because I have been in the rural suburban South for a long time, I’m like, Michelle Obama would activate more people to get to the polls to vote against that happening than we can believe. And I think that we have to be more concerned about those counter narratives and and exciting people. There’s another I’m doing this by memory, but I know there’s a huge sloth, like over 50% of Black LGBT people who can vote, don’t vote, I know I want to say it’s like a crazy number, like 75% of of people who are able to vote who are LGBT and Black don’t vote. So I also think that Kamala should really think about hitting those communities too. 

De’Ara Balenger: 100%. 

Myles E. Johnson: I think because we can be so loud on the internet, it feels like, well, all the LGBT people who are Black got blue checkmarks and are voting because I see them all the time or I see these conversations happening, I’m like, oh, there are untapped communities who can be activated that can take this presidency and make this a victory for Kamala. 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming. 

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Myles, you made me think of a question for everybody. Is um, you know, it seems like the party apparatus came out very quickly supporting Kamala. People pledged their delegates. All the people that were suspected of potentially contesting her come out and support her, including JB Pritzker this morning. You get Manchin, who yesterday on Sunday says he might run against her. Monday morning, he says I’m not running against her, but I want there to be a mini primary. What has been reported is that it is noticeable that Barack Obama has not openly endorsed Kamala. Does that mean anything or is that just a he’s not doing it so he doesn’t fire up the super crazy people? What do you make of that? 

Don Calloway: Well, it’s interesting to see the speed with which she has been able to get the democratic contingency to coalesce around her candidacy within 24 hours. It’s been extremely impressive. Let’s be clear, she was not celebrating yesterday. She was calling members of Congress to get their endorsement. But she’s asking for a working endorsement. So what she’s asking for is you to go get your delegates right in your congressional district and make sure that they are committed and pledged to me. So when people talk about wanting to see some type of liberal Hunger Games, which, you know, or some type of apprentice style, who’s the Democratic nominee, that’s misguided because there is an open process. She’s just winning. So Barack Obama’s lack of endorsement is because, in theory, he’s suggesting that he wants to support the winner of the open process. That open process is happening, right? People are calling De’Ara Balenger asking her to pledge her vote as a delegate to their presidential candidacy. But, you know, hey, guys, guess what? This Black woman was prepared for this moment before you got the public announcement yesterday. And she’s been congealing delegates to support her candidacy in the event that the president stepped aside, which will ultimately happen. You think she wasn’t preparing for this, right? So there is an open process. We don’t need to have some type of like I saw Andrew Yang talking about how we need to have some type of obstacle course, man, sit down somewhere and shut up, because what you’re doing is finding a cutesy way to say, let’s skip over this Black woman, right? Who’s actually the sitting vice president and who has actually been a big part of a very successful administration’s flagship successes. Right? So let’s not try to find creative ways to get around her being the nominee. If you see the show of support, that’s one good thing. But also understand that that show of support is happening within the constructs of the defined open process that the Democratic Party has had in place for a long time. 

De’Ara Balenger: I just want to go back to something, because it’s like I’m getting texts about it right now and it’s, y’all, this fear we have about her not being able to win because of America. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

De’Ara Balenger: Is nuts because we are America. And then on Morning Joe this morning, Joe was talking about, well, David Plouffe, you need to go help them. And da da da I’m just [sigh] Barack Obama won twice, and the Democratic Party really thinks he won, partly because of some brilliance of white operatives like David Plouffe and others. 

Don Calloway: Yeah. 

De’Ara Balenger: Barack Obama won because Black people would walk on hot coals to vote for this president. Okay. Also, the Lululemon women you’re talking about did the same thing. Like, I understand the sexism, racism like I am of this place. But if we stop operating with fear, Black people, people of color, we will understand and Myles, you’re talking about culture. A Black candidate is actually the best candidate you can have in terms of culture. 

Don Calloway: You can have. 

De’Ara Balenger: Who are the most famous people in the world? They are Black people and have been for decades, since 1981. Michael Jackson, Bill Cosby, Beyonce, Oprah, Michael Jordan, Tupac these are people known around the world. For what they’ve done and what their contributions are. So the, us, I don’t know who’s feeding it to us that a Black candidate is not the best candidate to be president of the United States. I understand the history and the trauma and the [mumbling]. It’s the best possibility that we have, y’all. It is. And no one can tell me different. I’m sorry. I’m over it, I’m over it. 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m here for it De’Ara. Preach. Preach. I will say that I was working in Harlem during the election, and I, with my own eyes, saw drug dealers get off the corner and stand in line. I saw it. I was like, oh, something different about this. This is a, something is happening. But I agree with your sentiment De’Ara, that like the party can’t win without us. We are the culture and the and the sauce. Why not double down? Myles? 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I don’t I don’t want to be pessimistic. [laughter] Because I really don’t I really don’t I really, really, really, really don’t want to be pessimistic. But I think that there’s a few things that we’re missing around Obama. Obama was married to Michelle Obama, was married to a Black woman. So I know we’re not bringing up these things, but if we’re going to bring up the things that activated so many people, Black votes to vote for Obama, we have to be real about the entirety of the situation. It was the first time it’s ever happened. He, checked off all those um, checkpoints and he was married to a Black woman. And also what helped Obama win was the fact that he was going against Mitt Romney. And Mitt Romney was seen by a lot of people as more of the same thing. He was seen as somebody who we’ve seen do this before, and and and we weren’t going up I don’t so here it is. I don’t know if Obama would have beat Trump. Should he have beat Trump? Yes, should is he more qualified? Is he a better person? Is he a more decent person? Yes. But I think that we sometimes undermine how deeply patriarchal and racist certain sloths of the country and the population are, and how much those people do not want to see a Black woman presidency, and specifically a Black woman presidency that looks like it’s going to allow a lot of the godless, um that’s not my words, but godless, leftist, libtard ideals just fly free. And I think that if we’re not so sure, this elusive middle America and they just care about their railroads, and their oils, sure, those people too. But there are a lot of people on that side who don’t like Black people. 

De’Ara Balenger: But we know that. So what? So what do we do? Do we not run Black people ever again? 

Myles E. Johnson: No, no, I’m definitely not saying that we shouldn’t run anybody. That’s why I this is just going to be the, the, the argument for me just repeatedly, is how do you counter that? How do you like after you’re real about that, how do you counter that? Counter that there are more people since then, Kamala decided that she’s going to run, that she’s going to run for um president. She announced that. There are just as many people on that right side who are now going to vote who weren’t, simply because of that decision. And I think narratives built off of that truth feel a little bit more honest. And I think just seeing what happened with Obama, it just feels dishonest to me. I don’t know, it just feels dishonest to look at that situation with Young Jeezy and my President’s Black and where we were and eight years of Bush and just where and Mitt Romney look at that particular situation and say, oh, we can repeat that. I’m like, we’re in a different moment. 

De’Ara Balenger: The piece of this that is being left out is that the Democratic Party did not want Barack Obama to be the nominee. The Congressional Black Caucus actually did not support Barack Obama. They supported Hillary Clinton. So my point is, is that yes, there was all those other conditions around him that I’m sure contributed to his success. But I think my point is nuanced in that part of why he got that nomination is because somehow imagination was unlocked around this young Black man being able to become president because there were so many naysayers, particularly Black people. Particularly the Congressional Black Caucus, particularly Jesse Jackson. Remember when he had that hot mic, talking about how he didn’t like Barack Obama. This is somebody from Chicago. 

Don Calloway: If I may issue a direct quote. He offered to cut his nuts off. [laughter]

De’Ara Balenger: See what I’m saying? Like, if folks did not push and say, no, he’s the one, he’s the one. We wouldn’t have had him. My point is that we just have to have the imagination and a little less fear around what our people can accomplish. That’s all I’m saying. 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. You’re hired on my on my end. [laugh] Sorry. 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay, so uh, we never do closing thoughts, but I want to do closing thoughts on um, what’s your advice to people who are overwhelmed by the Trump moment and are trying to figure out what to do next, because the texts I’m getting is like, DeRay what can I do? They’re like, what? Who? Where do I go to help? What is the or what can I do in the moment? What do you say to those people? So I’m gonna ask everybody to answer that question as we close. 

Don Calloway: I think that uh, the unimpressive dude who is the head of the Heritage Foundation, said that this next American Revolution will be bloodless if the left allows it to be. So they are looking at this in terms of a revolution, and that is how we have to approach this. We cannot approach this as a election, you know, Kamala versus Trump or Democrat versus Republican. This is a 107 day sprint to determine which proposed revolution wins. We know what they want to do. We know what they intend to do. This is your opportunity to participate in a three month national service project to make sure that fascist rules, dictatorial rules don’t determine the future of our country. It’s important to understand what the Supreme Court did over the course of the last month was a warm up for the rights that will be taken away. Dismantling the regulatory state and giving the president immunity. That was a stretch, right? Just a stretch, warm up for what potentially is on the table with four more years of a Trump administration. So this is your time to participate in a national service project to preserve some form of democracy. We know that we have never had a fully participatory, multiracial democracy in this country. But the goal of America, the idea of America, is that we’re supposed to be working towards that. This is your opportunity to help preserve conceptually our opportunity to work towards that. Everybody has a part to play. Talk to your people in your circle about what’s at stake this time. Talk to your people in your circles. And I’m not asking you to get uncomfortable and talk to people who you have no community or you have no connection with. Talk to your people in your circles. If you’re a white dude, talk to other white men. If you’re a white woman, talk to other white women because at 52%, it’s still looming out there. Black men have a significant role in talking to other Black men about why this is the moment. And Black women, we need you one more time. Right? Uh. And everybody, if you if you got some money, this is the time to participate beyond just giving to a candidate. Every single American has a role here. And De’Ara’s right. We are America. It’s not the racists are not America. The fascists are not America. And somehow get to say what happens. No. God forbid. We are America as well. And we have an equal voice. And you need to figure out a way to put your hands to the task of this for the next 100 days. There’s nothing else that’s really as important as this. Whatever little job you thought you had, or contract you thought you had, or opportunity you thought you had. None of that is coming in a Project 2025 world. None of that is coming. And whatever you think you acquired in this system is at jeopardy because those ten billionaires who will run the world in the post-Trump 2.0, they don’t give a crap about your upper middle class even, right? So this is the opportunity to find a way to participate. And there’s lots of ways out there, but it starts with getting in your circles and talking to one person and making sure they vote for for the Democratic nominee, whoever that might be. 

De’Ara Balenger: Very tactical over here. So go on the X, the Twitter, whatever it’s called, and follow at @KamalaHQ because that’s the digital platform that’s up and running right now. If you can also go to KamalaHarris.com and endorse her your own self and give a little donation $10, $25, you can make it weekly. You can also go to some of my favorite advocacy organizations like Black Voters Matter. Go on their website. You can volunteer right now today. You can also go to Mijente.net, which is my favorite Latino advocacy organization. You can again get you can sign up to become a member of Mijente today and get yourself organized and take action there. You can also go to the DNC’s website and join a call crew. You can start making calls today. You can start getting you can get in the text crew and send text messages. So that’s at the D. If you just go to dnc.org. Reach out to me. I’m happy to give you specific instruction, direction, inspiration around all the majllion ways you can get activated that really just sets your heart aflutter. Find me on Instagram at @dearabalenger. 

Myles E. Johnson: Specifically to like the Black people listening. I would say protect yourself. I think the the style of Trump and the style of the right is exhaustion and making sure that there’s always one more thing to debate and one more thing to argue against. And I think that focus in really protecting yourself up until November is going to be really, really important. And if you are somebody who, because I’ve been on all different sides of these, like kind of like left conversations, if you are somebody who who’s trying to activate people who maybe aren’t interested in voting or who wouldn’t normally vote or not convinced. Use all your patience for that. Use all your patience for those conversations. Don’t spend all your patience listening to conservatives. Don’t be like me. [laughing] And spend and spend all your patience listening to conservative pundits. And when it’s time to talk to other Black people, you don’t necessarily have the patience, because I think that it’s always going to be one more time for us. I think it’s always going to be something that’s pragmatic and maybe not the best thing, or the lesser of two evils, etc., etc.. language and I hope and dare I say, I pray that we handle this in a way that we still retain our patience for other people, because I think a lot of things are going to come up that should come up and should be discussed and should be debated. And I think that this has been such a great example. And last but not least, the misogynoir, that we are going to see is going to be ridiculous. They are going to be things that aren’t just about hurting Kamala. It’s going to be things that are also about just I, do you do you remember the those like those those monkey pictures of Michelle Obama and Barack Obama, do you remember? 

Don Calloway: Oh yeah. 

Myles E. Johnson: Like all those kind of racist things that don’t that don’t just hurt the Obamas, but it reminds us that we’re living with those people and living with people who feel those types of ways, and this just activated their opinions. I think that that is something to prepare yourself for, because I think when we see how many individuals have saluted to the cult of white supremacy, I think these are time these are the moments that we see just how many people are involved in that. And I think that that can be depleting both on a spiritual and emotional basis. So I would say just fill yourself up because it’s going to be some months that feel like years. 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. Tactically. Join Vote Save America. It’s easy to get involved. I’ll make sure that you have all the information for Vote Save America. And the second thing is um, don’t ever take for granted the conversations that seem really small. I think one of the things that the internet has done is it’s warped our sense of uh, perspective and scale that people think that if it’s not 200,000 retweets or a million people seeing it, da da da. I always say as an organizer, there’s nothing that’s ever changed the world that didn’t start in a kitchen, on a porch, in a basement, and a conversa– like it takes it really is that one conversation that pushes somebody. So don’t take for granted the idea that telling the truth in public is actually a huge deal. And people need hope. I think that people are for a lot of reasons, hope is depleted in this moment. I think that, you know, we’re coming up on ten years since the protests. I think that none of us anticipated the hope spike that we would all get. It was like, you know, we thought Obama was the apex of the spike and he was not. It was like the protests happened. Everybody we’ve ever seen and knew is in the middle of the street talking about justice for so-and-so. You know, it happened. It was unprecedented. And then it happened again, you know, like, and now people are like, if so what? Like what happened? And I think that there is like a hope, a hope um downhill happening. And anything that you can do to give people hope matters. It was great to talk to you all. And um, I am with the people who are like, can we just live in precedented times one day? No more unprecedented times. [laughter] I’m like, y’all are right. Yes, give me some precedented times. See y’all back next week. This is a historic moment, y’all. The last week has been wild. The presidential landscape is shifting in real time. As you are hearing us talk about on the podcast, we have the power. You have the power to sway the election and secure important wins on issues like abortion, the environment, LGBTQ+ rights. If you want to help and don’t know where to start, I got an answer for you. You can go to Vote Save America’s 2024 volunteer program. It’s called organize or else. It’s the most high impact, door knocking, phone banking and text banking opportunity for you. It’ll help you find some place near you. So far, over 18,000 people have signed up, and those 18,000 people have already reached out to over 800,000 voters. All hands on deck. You have a role to play. So let’s get ready, do some volunteering, save democracy, and then hang out because there will be a world to hang out in. Go to VoteSaveAmerica.com/2024 and click sign up to get started. This message has been paid for by Vote Save America. You can learn more at VoteSaveAmerica.com and this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidate committee. [music break] Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People was a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson. [music break]

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