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President Trump has a God problem. After criticizing the Pope and posting an image of himself as Jesus online, Trump has caused an uproar among his Christian base. This week, Alex speaks to Pastor Doug Pegitt about the crisis of conscience many faith leaders and parishioners are facing as their political leanings and moral beliefs collide. Then, she’s joined by Jennifer Palmieri, former White House Communications Director under President Obama and Senior Advisor to the Clinton and Harris campaigns, to talk about the power of the Catholic swing vote and how Democrats could win over religious voters.

TRANSCRIPT

Alex Wagner: Hi everyone. This is the week President Trump decided to launch a new war against the Pope and to play the role of Jesus on the internet. For context here, the leader of the Catholic Church, Pope Leo XIV, has been very vocally critical of Trump’s war against Iran since it began. When he delivered his Palm Sunday message, the Pope said that God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them, saying, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. Then a week later on Easter Sunday, when Trump threatened to destroy the entire civilization of Iran, the Pope called Trump’s comments truly unacceptable. Since Trump launched his catastrophically misguided war of choice, Pope Leo has been preaching a message of peace and publicly reminding our allegedly Christian president of his very unchristian behavior. Surprising exactly no one. Donald Trump has not taken this well. This Sunday, Trump launched what has to be one of his weirdest attacks on Truth Social, saying, Pope Leo is weak on crime and terrible on foreign policy. He meets with Obama sympathizers like David Axelrod, a loser from the left. Leo should stop catering to the radical left and focus on being a great pope, not a politician. It’s hurting him very badly, and more importantly, it’s hurting the Catholic Church. And then, 45 minutes later, Trump posted a picture of himself as Jesus. Needless to say, this did not convince the people who needed convincing. Pope Leo, for one, sure didn’t seem like he believed Donald Trump is a second coming of Christ, not by a long shot.

[clip of Pope Leo]: I have no fear, neither the Trump administration, nor speaking out loudly about the message in the Gospel. And that’s what I believe. I am called to do what the Church is called to, we’re not politicians, we are not looking to make foreign policy, as he calls it, with the same perspective that he might understand it. But I do believe that the message of the Gospel, blessed are the Peacemakers, is the message that the world needs to hear today.

Alex Wagner: As for everyone else, the Trump Jesus thing really did not play. Not with politicians, not with faith leaders, not even with Trump supporters, including and especially the ones with millions of followers like Christian influencer Ryan Miller and MAGA apologist, Megyn Kelly.

[clip of Ryan Miller]: Can I just speak for 95% of Christians out there and say, we are really tired of this? This is blasphemy. You’ve got angels that are soldiers or something. You’ve Donald Trump clearly portraying himself as God. This is exactly what the Bible calls blasphemy.

[clip of Megyn Kelly]: I don’t know why the president’s getting so desperate for attention that he feels the need to mock 1.4 billion Catholics. It’s enough. Okay. It’s enough with this nonsense. I know you love getting a rise out of people. I know you’re really enjoying being subversive. You upset all the right people. I get it. But you know, like why last week it was Muslims. And now it’s Catholics.

Alex Wagner: Everything about the Jesus play has gone so spectacularly wrong for Trump that he ultimately deleted the post and claimed he never thought it was about Jesus to begin with.

[clip of Donald Trump]: Well, it wasn’t a depiction. It was me. I did post it and I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross as a Red Cross worker there which we support and only the fake news could come up with that one. It’s supposed to be me as doctor making people better and I do make people better. I make people a lot better.

Alex Wagner: While Trump’s God complex may be nothing new, the events of this week, his war on the head of the Catholic Church, his failed Jesus cosplay, they reveal a dark truth for this president. Trump’s profound mismanagement of the country and the mess he’s created overseas have finally drained even the faithful of their Christian goodwill. And now his blasphemous behavior has finally crossed the line. I’m Alex Wagner, and this week on Runaway Country, is Trump losing his Christian base? If so, who else is looking for the exits? And what do Democrats do to invite them in? I’ll be speaking to Jennifer Palmieri, former White House communications director under President Obama, senior advisor to the Clinton and Harris campaigns, and one of the most strategic political minds I know. But first, I wanted to hear from someone on the front lines of the schism between Trump and the Christian faithful. Here’s my conversation with Pastor Doug Pagitt, who’s consulting with churches all over the country about what to do when parishioners are seeking answers for a moral crisis, one where their political leanings and their religious values no longer align. Pastor Pagitt, welcome to Runaway Country. First of all, thank you for doing this. I’m so eager to get your perspective on what is unfolding in our national discourse. But, you know, let’s start at the beginning, which is just as a faithful person, as a faith leader, how have you looked at the events of the last week in terms of the battle, the fight that the president of the United States is picking with the head of the Catholic Church, his, you now, Jesus cosplaying on the internet. Did any part of this shock you?

Pastor Doug Pagitt: You know, honestly it did, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about religion and politics and a lot times thinking about the MAGA movement and why religious people are connected to it. We actually travel the country and we work with voters and we worked with candidates, trying to help those who wanna stop feeling like their only option is to vote for MAGA candidates to know they can vote for other people. So we’re in these conversations an awful lot. And I’ve known how much Donald Trump’s care for and speaking about issues of the faith community have meant to those voters he’s never lived up to it himself it’s never been a personal devotion but he has said hey in my role as the president you’re gonna have power, a deal that I think they shouldn’t have taken but they meant a lot to them and then to watch him basically demean Easter.

Alex Wagner: Yeah.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: To demean the faithful to start picking a fight with the pope to say that the pope is only the pope because he’s the president, to take credit for the conclave selection process and to basically say it’s nothing but a political arm of the Vatican, and then to do this messianic Jesus thing. It’s really hurt a lot of people’s hearts. It’s hurt their minds, it’s broken their minds and they don’t know how to respond to it. So I’m actually shocked that his intuitions wouldn’t have kept him from this.

Alex Wagner: Yeah. Well, his there are no better angels left. I don’t know if there were any angels to begin with, but he can’t give it up either. I mean, even today, he’s continuing to, you know, send social media messages in the direction of the pope being highly critical of Pope Leo and, you, know, reposting images of himself and God. And it just he can he at once he knows it’s bad. It’s he knows bad politics to say nothing of the morality of it. But his narcissism, his malignant narcissism is so overpowering that he can’t let go of it and he can’t, I think, see himself lose a fight even though he’s battling the Catholic Church. To that end, I wonder if you, I’d like to play a little bit of a clip that aired on 60 Minutes on Sunday with Nora O’Donnell where she’s interviewing three American Catholic bishops about sort of what’s happening in the United States. Let’s take a listen to that.

[clip of 60 Minutes]: Is this a just war? / No. Under Catholic teaching, this is not a just war. Catholic faith teaches us there are certain prerequisites for a just war. You can’t go for a variety of different aims. You have to have a focus aim which is to restore justice and restore peace. That’s it. / This is a war of choice that we went to and I think it’s embedded in a wider moment in the United States that’s worrying, which is this. We’re seeing before us the possibility of war, after war, after war. / We’re dehumanizing the victims of war by turning the suffering of people and the killing of children and our own soldiers into entertainment. / I want to preach the gospel. God wants us to promote peace in the world because his desire is that we be one human family. / What we’re seeing as pastors is an enormous, profound level of human suffering.

Alex Wagner: I was, first of all, so moved by what they had to say in the context of sort of Christianity and its values, but also really stunned at first that, you know, Pope Leo is, the sort of higher echelons, the Catholic Church are in lockstep with Pope Leo. And the Wall Street Journal had some really interesting reporting about the, you know, basically the team he has, the support he has within the church. It says, it quotes an expert in Rome as saying, “Leo is systematic and methodical. He is active behind the scenes, and when he speaks, it’s the last step. Pope Francis was a rock star, but Leo is the conductor of an orchestra.” He is speaking for the church. And in that way, it is an unwinnable war that I think Trump is going up against. Not just because we have no end game, and we have not apparent strategy, and it’s tactically a failure, but morally. The conviction with which the Church is speaking, not just at the highest echelon, but these are U.S. Catholic bishops. I wonder how meaningful it is in your estimation that the Catholic Church is so unified on this front, so clear about the morals that are at play.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Well, it’s good news, frankly, to people like me, because, you know, the Catholic bishops, they were quite involved in the last three presidential elections, really swaying support toward Donald Trump. A lot of us who work in faith spaces, a lot of we have an arm of our work called Catholics Vote Common Good, we’re very engaged. The bishops in the United States really used their power politically to give people, whether it was permission or coverage to support Donald Trump. So to see them now be so clear about this, because look, we all tolerate a certain amount of religious overlap in our religion and a certain number of religious political overlap in our religions. We just have to put up with it. It’s sort of the mele that we all live in. But when the President of the United States sees the Pope as just another political leader who’s, quote, “weak on crime and woke,” it’s just such a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of religion and what it means in people’s lives. And the fact that Donald Trump makes enemies out of his opponents is what’s at the root of this. Because now, basically, he is determined that if Pope Leo says anything different than what he wants him to say, he’s now your enemy. So the consistency and the constancy of war from this White House is not just against other nations, it’s against parts of our country and parts of world. He is really setting aside any notion of who’s the we and asking to create a greater sense and greater inclusion of the we in America, this big experiment that we’re all a part of. Can we expand the we and always turning it into an us versus them and increasingly a me versus them. And that is something that, look, all the religious people I’ve talked to who even support Donald Trump, what they really want is for America to come back together again. They see their faith, they actually see their vote as a part of that. They don’t see themselves contributing to the demise or to the separation or to the anger. They see themselves and their faith driving them toward greater inclusion and greater togetherness. And now they’re noticing something a lot of us have seen for a very long time. That has never been the strategy of this administration. Of this person or of the MAGA movement. So now you have folks who are noticing something that a lot of people have been seeing for a long time. That there’s one track with this man as president and that is to divide. And then to hear J.D. Vance, I think it was yesterday, lecture the Pope about being more careful about his theology.

Alex Wagner: Yes.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Look, I’ve been a pastor a long time and have had new converts to the religion do their right duty and telling me that I’ve got the gospel wrong. That’s something that just happens in faith and tradition, you know, the zeal of the newly converted sometimes blinds your judgment and your understanding. But never have I watched someone be so foolish as to smugly lecture the pope about being more careful on theology of violence and war. Something the Catholic Church has spent an awful lot of time thinking about.

Alex Wagner: A lot of centuries.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: And a lot of Christians have thought about this. It’s a well-considered idea in theology. And only mindless, obedient political actors say something like, Well, there was a time when we won the war and we were the good guys, so God was on our side. The whole point is that God is not on the sides. God is on everyone’s side. So, no, God doesn’t choose sides at all. And that’s what the Pope was saying, and that what this administration has missed. But you know, look, Donald Trump wants everyone to find a level of fealty to him, and he really doesn’t care. But I thought he was smarter than this, and I thought the people around him were smarter than that. Now, he did take down that post, Alex. When he took down that most—

Alex Wagner: Yes, except that he keeps sending, putting out more posts. There’s one today with him and God. Like, it’s just, he can’t help himself. But to your point about the folks that he has surrounded himself with, it isn’t just J.D. Vance, it is also the Department of Defense, which is, of course, waging this war in Iran. The bishops in that clip that I played talk about the video gamification of victims.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Yeah.

Alex Wagner: And the way in which they make fun of the cruelty and the horror of war, as if it’s just a game. And you simultaneously have the Secretary of War, the Secretary Of Defense, Pete Hegseth, cloaking the U.S. Mission in a sort of holy war rhetoric, that this is a godly mission that the United States is on. As he prays literally for quote overwhelming violence and no mercy.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Yeah.

Alex Wagner: I just think this is the thing, you know, we talk about Trump, you know playing Jesus on the internet, but this is the kind of stuff I would love to know what your, the MAGA folks that you talk to, the faithful people that you talked to, this can’t sit well with them.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: No it does not.

Alex Wagner: And the rejection, explicit rejection on the part of actual men of the cloth, I would imagine that counts for something.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: It does. Look, this version of Christian nationalism that Pete Hegseth holds to is advocating for that the United States is the governmental expression of Christianity in the world. That notion. Is something that many Christian people want to resist. And then when he says something like you’ve mentioned that he said, or when he put out a statement asking for every school, child, church member to fall on their knees and to pray for success of this mission. That is such a core violation. And many of the faith leaders that I’ve spoken to who are now saying things about Donald Trump speaking out. Basically using the the the photo that he posted as the reason and the rationale for why they can now say something. But the deeper meaning was this taking of the Christian story as a crusade narrative.

Alex Wagner: Yeah.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: That there are very few people in the Christian tradition whether you’re Protestant or Orthodox or Catholic, that think the Crusades were a good idea. [laughter] And somehow, Pete Hegseth and his crowd haven’t gotten the message yet. And so these are people that are advocating a really broken idea. And frankly, what else is happening here is that the Christian nationalist movement in the United States, which we spend a lot of time paying too much attention to, it is a group of factions at battle with each other. So the Pete Hegseth crowd and his pastor Doug Wilson who doesn’t think women should have full autonomy to vote, they should vote as a family, is also an anti-Catholic Protestant.

Alex Wagner: Right.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: And Paula White, who’s the head of the White House Office of Faith, is a woman faith leader. But all of these groups have their own version of this Christian nationalist agenda, and they’re attacking the Christian faith on all the fronts. The charismatic Pentecostals with Paula White and this fundamentalist movement with Pete Hegseth and his crowd, and then J.D. Vance is the front on Catholics. They are attacking Christianity across the board. And we knew it was coming because they kept saying, we need to protect Christianity from the attacks of the left. And every time this administration tells you that they’re here to protect you from the left, they’re getting ready to attack. I mean, I live in Minneapolis. We know what it looks like when they tell you that the left wants to ruin your city. And they show up with 3,000 masked agents and attack our churches, attack our citizens, kill people on the streets. So this playbook that they have to utilize religion and to tell religious voters, we’re here to protect you is their rationale for attacking them. And I don’t understand why they’re doing it. Frankly, their Christian narrative doesn’t make any sense. Their political narrative doesn’t any sense. These folks have truly lost their base and they’ve lost their minds. They lost their souls in my view a long time ago, but if you could be soulless and keep a base and keep your head about you, maybe you’re gonna make it. But look, and so many people, Alex, are just, over the last 10 days, have just expressed over and over, I don’t know what’s going on.

Alex Wagner: Yeah, it feels, on the outside at least, Pastor Pagitt, like it’s a real crisis of conscience.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Oh, it is, and look, a lot of us for eight or 10 years have been looking around America saying like, what did we miss? What did we get wrong? How did this happen, right? A lot of disillusionment, a lot confusion about what’s going on. Now that’s happening with the faithful in the MAGA movement. I mean, the faithful of religious conviction and the most MAGA faithful. They are now like, what’s happening? How could he be doing this? You know, so some days I think. I don’t know, maybe Donald Trump can make us all come together as we look at this man and think, that’s not where we wanna go. I mean, maybe after all the harm and all the pain [both speaking] and all of the horror, we hit bottom and we look each other and we say, well, I don’t know what the future’s gonna look like, but we don’t want this anymore. Because I don’t know how he pulls out of this. I don ‘t know you get any of these people back. I don’t know how you explain to these pastors that gave their reputations and their hearts and their pulpits over to this guy. And you know, they called for this day of prayer in May. I think maybe May 5th or May 11th, there’s this national call America back to God day.

Alex Wagner: Good luck.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Now, look, I’ve watched religious leaders say very bold things on Sunday in their pulpit and very politically cowardice things on Tuesday in the voting booth.

Alex Wagner: Right.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: So I could imagine some of these people will be very bold in their critique and then bow the knee again. And that’s what Donald Trump is depending on, is that people are gonna bow their knees and are gonna come back to him because he sees himself as the center of it all for them.

Alex Wagner: It’s a big bet. Pastor Doug Pagitt, it is, it’s so invaluable to have your perspective on this, you know, and to also just get your analysis of the situation. As a Catholic that should definitely be going to church more [laughter] I’d take any opportunity I can to talk to a kind of progressive visionary man of faith. Thank you for your time today. Thanks for joining Runaway Country.

Pastor Doug Pagitt: Well, I’m a big fan of you and this podcast and your work. So thanks for having me. Thank you.

Alex Wagner: After the break, putting this all into context with Jennifer Palmieri.

[AD BREAK]

Alex Wagner: I basically use this podcast as an excuse to talk to people that I haven’t talked to in a long time.

Jennifer Palmieri: Sure. Yeah.

And I am thrilled that the chaos of this week is giving me an opportunity to bring my friend, Jennifer Palmieri, the great political mind to Runaway Country. Thank you for doing this, buddy.

Jennifer Palmieri: I’m thrilled. I’m just so excited to talk to you. [both speaking] We’re good together, Alex. We’re get together.

Alex Wagner: We are. I’ve said that for years, and now the Runaway Country audience will understand what we’re talking about. [laughter] So Jen, the two most powerful Americans in the world, the Pope and the president, are I don’t want to say a battle because Pope Leo is a peaceful soul, but he is locked in conflict with President Trump. And I don’t know about you, but I’m gonna take Leo’s odds on winning this battle. Just by the polling alone, I think last month, NBC had a polling that Pope Leo has a 34 percentage point net positive rating among registered voters. He’s not running for anything, just to be clear. Donald Trump has a 12 percentage point net negative rating among American voters. What do you think about all this, Jen? What do think about these two, I don’t even wanna call them adversaries, with these two individuals in this very public conflict?

Jennifer Palmieri: It’s so exciting. It’s still amazing to me that we have an American Pope.

Alex Wagner: Yeah, right.

Jennifer Palmieri: I know Trump said he wouldn’t be there without me. That could be true. That could very easily be true, I mean, I’m a Catholic and when they…

Alex Wagner: As am I.

Jennifer Palmieri: I did not know that. And I just felt like that was such a gift when he became the Pope. I just couldn’t believe it. It was like such a, it felt like a really generous show for the College of Cardinals to show like, hey, America. But we don’t all think you’re like him. And also it’s just such a power play, unbelievable power play. Like, you know, Trump thinks he knows how to like play these political games, but it’s like, do not mess with the College of Cardinals management that they’re doing.

Alex Wagner: Don’t play with the Cardinals, totally.

Jennifer Palmieri: And the other thing that like sets a stage for this that I think is in terms of power building is, because after Pope Francis. You know, we had Benedict, it was the more conservative, I mean, if I can like generalize, you know, I’m just getting in trouble for this, but like more conservative Popes, and then Pope Francis, more liberal Pope. And you thought, okay, are the College of, they were, you know taken surprised by how active Francis was, are they gonna swing back? But of course what had happened is a lot of the Cardinals had been replaced by Francis and just like the judiciary in United States.

Alex Wagner: Right.

Jennifer Palmieri: You know.

Alex Wagner: It was like the inverse of the Federalist society only—

Jennifer Palmieri: Yeah, right, right. It’s fascinating. But it is a little lesson in power building. And then you see, Leo didn’t seem to want this political fight, right? He took a year to get really into it, but now he’s so direct. And the thing that I found so amazing about it wasn’t necessarily where he said, like, I don’t fear Trump he said [laughter] about what he said. Somebody asked about Truth Social. He’s like, just look at the title, ironic, isn’t it? So he’s speaking really plainly now.

Alex Wagner: Yeah yeah.

Jennifer Palmieri: I don’t know that it moves Catholic voters that are hardcore Trump voters, but it’s another, I think anytime there’s moral leadership that opposes Trump, it’s like another drop that I think particularly now in 2016, after Alex Pretti, after Renée Good, that is meaningful. So I don’t know that it means it’s isolated to how Catholics feel about Trump or that it’s gonna move Catholic voters that support Trump. But it’s a it’s a high moral voice coming out to say. No.

Alex Wagner: Let’s talk about the Catholic vote, because I think people, the Catholics in America are not just Alex Wagner and Jennifer Palmieri. [laughter] And I will say, I wish I went to church more often. Sorry, Pope Leo, but you know, I love, and it really is a true sort of restatement of Catholic values to be so opposed to this war, so opposed, opposed to Trump. I think it’s a very good move strategically for the Catholic Church, which is, rightfully under fire for the sexual abuse that happened for decades and the covering up of that sexual abuse. But the Catholic vote in the United States is 20% of American voters, one in five. It’s amazing.

Jennifer Palmieri: That’s amazing that it’s that high. Yeah.

Alex Wagner: And they used to split, they’re swing voters, they used to split pretty evenly between a Republican or a Democratic presidential candidate, but 56% of them backed Trump in 2024. These numbers aren’t firm because they’re exit poll data. And about 42% voted for Harris, which I think was like between a 10 and 20 point swing from the previous election with Joe Biden. You know, I agree with you that I don’t think the president going after the Pope is gonna be maybe enough to swing all of them back, but you do take into consideration the way the Pope is framing this conflict. And I mean the one with Trump, which is about a moral question of war. It is about the administration’s treatment of immigrants and the most vulnerable in our society. And what you have is a suite of arguments in favor of like the basic foundational values of Catholicism and the values in contrast to the values of the Trump administration. So maybe it’s not like the tweets that will get Catholics, but I don’t know, Jen, I wonder how you think as a Catholic in the US, as a strategist, as a political animal, how the bundling of all these issues is a potent mix. To move Catholic voters away from a Republican in 2028.

Jennifer Palmieri: The other piece of it is that a lot of those Catholics are Hispanic voters.

Alex Wagner: Yes, Hispanic Catholics, I think, are moving in greater numbers away from Trump because the deportation rates hit harder. And also, the economic pain is very, very real.

Jennifer Palmieri: And I saw. I saw recently a focus group with Hispanic voters and it was, most of them were Catholic too. And what was really interesting was one of them said, most them have voted for Trump. Men. Pennsylvania. Um, I used to look at the U.S. as bright and like full of light. And now it feels, now it feel very dark. And I wonder like where the bright color America went.

Alex Wagner: God that’s devastating.

Jennifer Palmieri: Isn’t that? Isn’t that really, isn’t that really something that, that, And they said, a lot of them said they, you know, how do they felt about, you just like they felt like, but how do you feel about life in America right now? And they use words like scary, unsettled, you know, afraid, and, you know, I think, I think that the ICE deportations hanging over their lives in a way that maybe sometimes people don’t even want to acknowledge because it’s too scary. And very concerned about Iran and what America was getting into there. But the notion of things being dark, as opposed to moral and light struck me. So I think if you, I think what’s more likely to happen is the fight with Leo, Leo standing up and being a moral voice, the way people who were unexpected stood up to be moral voices to condemn uh, the killing of Alex Pretti and Renée Good, I feel like, um, what are we doing in Iran with no certainty and, you know, no, um, direct, um objective, all of that wears on people and becomes baggage for the Republican in, in 28. And I think it leaves. It leaves people open to hearing something else from a Democrat that is more, that has a moral voice, moral authority, and is willing to share that and talk that and inspire people to a place where we can go. But it sure does feel like people are worried and are ready for that when they’re talking about America, you seem to be bright and now it’s all dark and black and white.

Alex Wagner: You know, can I say on that note, I would love it if Democrats and progressives could find a way to bring religion back onto the left, not to say let’s make the left a religious party or a Christian party for that matter, but to not let the right co-opt the values. I mean, I’m speaking as a Christian, as a Catholic, to co-op some of the values of Christianity, which, you know, when you look at the… The right’s embrace of Christianity, and we’ll talk about J.D. Vance in a second, is such an abomination given the clear values that that party has established for itself. And in the same way that it’s like, you don’t get to have the flag and you don’t get to the church. You’re probably the least patriotic party in the modern era and you’re certainly the least moral. And I think it’s okay and maybe even high time for progressives to say, we can be religious. And have religious values and also embrace progressivism, just like we can feel patriotic about this country, but also in our patriotism, find fault where it exists in our institutions, you know?

Jennifer Palmieri: I see a lot of it actually with the 2028ers, I watched a good bit of Reverend Al’s National Action Network, because it really was, it’s sort of like the first major 2028 event happening in the first quarter of 26. And a lot of people, you know, Andy Beshear talks about his faith, Wes Moore talks about his faith. I don’t believe, I didn’t see Governor Shapiro there, but he certainly. He certainly does obviously James Tallarico is another example on that.

Alex Wagner: Yeah, of course.

Jennifer Palmieri: So I do and I and and and apparently, I know that there’s conflicting views of what it means for religion to be growing in America, but it does feel you know but there are a lot of stats that shows that it is and that people are looking for you know, buying the Bible more and more. And in some areas, church attendance is going up and it does really feel that people are, you know there’s a lot of loneliness. People are just craving connectivity. They’re craving connection. They’re creating community. They’re carving something that’s bigger than that. And so I don’t think, you can’t ever fake it.

Alex Wagner: Yeah, I agree.

Jennifer Palmieri: It’s just so cringy when people do. But for, I think a lot of our leaders, I know Vice President Harris too, really lean on their faith and maybe they haven’t talked about it as much as they could have in the past and but I feel like that is going to be different in 28.

Alex Wagner: More with Jen Palmieri after the break.

[AD BREAK]

Alex Wagner: Well, let’s talk about Trump and all this because it’s so bad, Jen. Like, you’re former White House communications director. You know what it’s like to be in that, like, hornet’s nest. But can you imagine what Stephen Chung, Trump’s current communications director—

Jennifer Palmieri: He’s in the job, right? Somebody asked me recently. They’re like, yes, you’re the speaker—

Alex Wagner: He is still, I believe.

Jennifer Palmieri: And I said, I think so, I think it’s Stephen Chung—

Alex Wagner: He is still, as far as I can tell, we will fact check it if I’m incorrect, but like here’s the president of the United States effectively assaulting the pope on social media, then posting an image of himself as Jesus Christ, then doubling down on that fight while making a DoorDash grandmother deliver him food in the White House.

Jennifer Palmieri: And do you love Rob Flaherty pointed this out on Twitter, but it was like, I did love how the DoorDash woman was clearly prepped by a communications professional at DoorDash to say—[laughter]

Alex Wagner: Right, do not wade into trans issues, do not wade into immigration.

Jennifer Palmieri: Anything he says, you just say, I’m here to talk about no tax on tips.

Alex Wagner: And what’s always interesting to me is when Trump backs down.

Jennifer Palmieri: Yes. That shows, and that’s happening more often now, like more often I hear something crazy happen and then it’s like, well, you took it down. So it does feel a little different.

Alex Wagner: Let’s put a pin in that because there’s some updates. As the day progresses, we get both [laughter] a defensive maneuver and an offensive maneuver from the president, right? Because he said at one point, this is just a picture of me as a Red Cross doctor, really. That’s the fake news is making this up, right. That’s what I think you’re talking about in terms of his retreat. But like, this morning… Literally this morning, he put on Truth Social, will someone please tell Pope Leo that Iran has killed at least 42,000 innocent, completely unnamed protesters in the last two months and that for Iran to have a nuclear bomb is absolutely unacceptable. That, while Iran has behaved amorally as far as its protest movement, I do not think the death count is at 42,000. Who knows where Trump gets his facts, if you can even call them that. And then Jen, I don’t know if you caught this, few hours ago, he reposts a tweet of himself with God seated, I think, at his right hand, which is where Jesus normally sits. So it’s like he’s, yes, he’s backing off, but he’s not backing off. He is his own worst enemy. And in that way, he is completely uncontrolled.

Jennifer Palmieri: What’s interesting about that is obviously, I mean, Pope Leo should keep doing what he’s doing because he’s obviously in Trump’s head. If Trump has continually to, you know, post about him in that way. And that it’s really bothering him that he’s not considered, you now, the religious stuff is bothering him too. And the thing that I think, you know, I am not, I feel like I have some grasp on how evangelical voters look at politics.

Alex Wagner: Yeah.

Jennifer Palmieri: Not one myself, but, and I think it’s wrong to think that they expect the president or anybody they support politically to be a perfect or even highly moral person, you know? Like—

Alex Wagner: Or moral at all.

Jennifer Palmieri: You know, my, you like, my you know, Tim Alberta is the best sort of resource on this in terms of writing about politics and evangelical faith. But I just kind of know from having worked for Bill Clinton and how Southern Baptist and how. And then also from reading Tim Alberta and a lot of time that we spent on the road, United on the Road during circus with Trump voters and evangelicals, humans are you know, humans have a lot of failings. The world is a dark place. It’s a tough place, at least. And they, there was support for Trump because of what he was going to do, not who he is. So it is not surprising to them when a person has moral failings, that is to be expected in this world. And so it is, I suspect, and I did see plenty of clips MSNOW had about people in Bradenton, Florida, that were truly, were actually offended by what Trump had posted. But you know, but I think, you know our experience tells us a lot about the peaceful people are willing to write off stuff that he thinks is jokes, as jokes. It’s not, it’s not so much his behavior that I think will be as a problem is like, is what he’s doing in office moral or not? He got a lot of room on Roe and abortion, but now is Iran moral? Is the way we are treating immigrants moral? Is, is how much money we’re spending on defense as opposed to trying to improve things in the United States, maybe it’s that, is that moral? So it’s how things are racking up, shooting people in the street, you know, like it’s, it’s house at that, that it’s like, what are you actually not, what are your posting or saying, but what are actually doing that could turn off evangelical Catholic voters. And then I think it’s not like I don’t think the photos matter to people, the blasphemy. I think that it’s like in the context of all that other stuff that they’re unhappy about.

Alex Wagner: That’s what I think.

Jennifer Palmieri: It’s not the deal breaker. It’s like, how could you support him? It’s, like, what? I support him for a lot of, I support for what he’s doing, but this is, it does feel like everything’s piling up. 26 feels different than 25.

Alex Wagner: Yeah, my sort of thinking about this has been he’s mismanaged the economy so grossly. He has made these moves that are so clearly at odds with just basic morality, right? Well, from the deportations on down. The goodwill, the Christian charity that he might otherwise have a store of is dissipated, and if not evaporated, which is why you hear people come out and say, are you kidding me? Like this is. Wrong, this is the devil’s handiwork, this is blasphemy in a way that you wouldn’t have before because he has no storage of goodwill. Like he is, there’s no, you know, there’s, there is no padding here that he is just, there’s only, it’s like he’s hitting the floor. I mean, we see that in his approval rating, but I think even among his base. So, I mean yeah, the broad un-Christianness of this administration I think has really fucked him when he needs Christians to come to his defense and go to war with the Pope? Like, all of it’s just such, can I just, can you just, like what, what do you think is, I mean, I would never ask you to imagine what the [both speaking] office, like what a fucking nightmare it must be to be in there in the middle of this, right?

Jennifer Palmieri: In the middle of this to be like, we’re gonna do whatever we’re going to do today. We’re doing the DoorDash lady today. It’s going to be great. We’re going finally talk about no tax on tips, right? It’s like, it’s like it’s like the 2026 version of infrastructure—

Alex Wagner: Yes. It’s today is April 15th. We’re recording this on Wednesday. It is tax day and all the party wants to do is talk about these tax refunds that Americans are going to get and how Donald Trump’s putting money in your pocket and what are we talking about?

Jennifer Palmieri: And if you’re rich, you got a tax cut too. And then there’s the tax on tips. And then, yeah, so you’re like, and that was a cheesy, but clever event that they had with the McDonald’s being delivered. It’s very relatable. McDonald’s, who doesn’t love to get McDonald’s delivered in your DoorDash. And then in the middle of the night, Stephen Chung finds that he has posted a image of himself as Jesus.

Alex Wagner: And he keeps doing it. He keeps talking about Leo.

Jennifer Palmieri: And it’s one thing when you’re just riding that tiger then, right? Then you’re, just, then you’re just, okay, he’s doing what he’s doing and we’re going to, and there will be a lot of blowback from it, but we’re going to figure out the thing that where we can, where we can make some hay out of it or push back on, there’s going to be some, because they don’t have any fear of collateral damage, they will find some way to make this thing work for them in some population. It gives Fox News a reason to push back and say Democrats can’t take a joke or, you know, it gets, he gets real. Yeah. But there is, uh, it is the thing that is surprising to me is that they still do try to plan. [laughter] God love em. I mean, I know how it is. And it’s hard enough in the White House anyway. You know, the President of the United States has a lot of power but very little control. And so any day, anything in the world can blow up. So, you know, and Obama used to kind of laugh at me sometimes about how I believe, but we have this plan and it’s gonna be great. And he’s like, okay, you should keep trying, but like, just understand that I know that like not everything is under your control here and that sometimes we’re gonna get bad press and. Your plans are not gonna break through. I mean, they’re important to do in a normal White House because it keeps the cabinet on track. It does, it will break through somehow. There are so many platforms available to you. You’re gonna find a way to get that message out. But it is, I mean I’m impressed that they’re still. They’re still trying and they’re still, and this is their week, right? Because if you’re gonna argue that you’ve done things to make life more affordable for Americans, this is your one week to do it.

Alex Wagner: What a week as the Strait of Hormuz basically remains closed and gas prices are above $4 a gallon. Keep doing you, Trump.

[AD BREAK]

Alex Wagner: That is a good, like, lead-in to this reality, Jen, which is polling, CBS and YouGov, finds that Trump’s approval rating among white voters without college degrees, which is like the essence of his base, has dropped 40 points from plus 36 to negative four. To me, that seems like we’re, you know, we’re talking sort of discreetly about evangelicals and Christian voters. This is a much broader swath of American public. It’s essential to the coalition that Trump built, it’s going to be essential for any Republican to keep these people in their corner, and that is hemorrhaging. That is bleeding out. If you ask me, I don’t know what you think of a statistic like that.

Jennifer Palmieri: Yeah. Yeah. That is I mean, that is for for white working class voters. It’s pretty shocking because it means what is that going to be about? It’s going to about Iran. That’s going be about I mean. Look, I will tell people if everybody hears how important gas prices are. I can’t emphasize enough how existential what an existential threat high gas prices are to a presidency. It is.

Alex Wagner: You know.

Jennifer Palmieri: The number one it overrides, there is nothing more. There’s nothing. Full stop, more damaging to a president than high gas prices. You know, what I have heard in focus groups is I thought it was gonna be different. He’s not doing what he said he was going to do. And it’s one thing when you have high gas prices for a few weeks, but when you have the thing that I really feel was a gut punch for the consciousness overall with Minneapolis. And then you’re not doing what you said you’re going to do on prices. You, I mean, the fear of what this war in Iran can mean, I think is real. And I do see you messing with tariffs and that seems, and then it’s, the bottom doesn’t ever fall out with him because people are bought in, but then that the Republican, I mean just, I just think the Republican brand is gonna be in tatters.

Alex Wagner: Okay, can we talk about that because I think that there’s two parts of this conversation. One is just how badly Trump is doing. And then the second piece is how do Democrats capitalize on that, right? Because it’s an open question about whether people just don’t support Trump and kind of give up on Republicans, but then can they be invited into the Democratic tent? And I will call your attention to Megyn Kelly, MAGA apologist, internet personality. [laughter] Offering us this piece of meat to chew over. Let’s take a listen.

[clip of Megyn Kelly]: Listen, honestly, Trump could drop a nuke and I’d still vote Republican over those people because they—[multiple voices]. In some ways, I really am they but honestly, they what they want to do is nuke our own country. You know, it’s like the open border, what they’re doing to children, all that stuff is still that they would do it all if put back in power and I think most Republicans know that.

Alex Wagner: Okay, so there you go, right? They, basically, if Trump could do his worst and I’d still vote for a Republican over a Democrat in the next election. Are we overstating how much damage all this is doing to the GOP brand and how much of an opportunity it is for the left?

Jennifer Palmieri: Um, this is what I worry about. There’s like, let’s talk about 26 first and then 28. I think 26 is in great shape, but I don’t love a sense that Democrats are letting gravity take hold and think we’re going to be fine because gravity is going to take hold. And by gravity, I mean, he, you know, he’s so unpopular, everything is so terrible with the economy and things costing so much and all the reasons to discuss why Trump’s not popular that they think we don’t, we can play it safe. And not advance a agenda, not deal with our problems, and still win. They probably, Democrats probably would win in 26, even if they didn’t do that. But I think their people, government and politics and parties have such little credibility that this is like, this is really a time where Democrats should go big in terms of, I think solutions in terms of proving that you can make that, you don’t just have, don’t talk about it, but you have a proven record and governors are in a better position than members of Congress to do this because you’re not in charge in Congress, but proven record of actually making democracy work, of actually delivering results. Even I think small things matter or small accomplishments matter more than big dreams in this case, just things that have made a difference, just some credibility and being able to. Build that up. I think that the sort of ideological constraints that used to kick in were voters thinking themselves as I’m a moderate and therefore I’m only going to support certain kinds of policy that Trump has sort of thrown that wide open because he’s not ideological at all. And so I think you can have I think, you know, and the other thing is that problems haven’t gotten dealt with in the last 20 years, basically, right? You know, people used to say during the Clinton campaign… Hillary had different positions in 2016 than she had in 1996. Well, guess what? Problems had gotten worse. We had different problems in 1996 than we had in 2016. So I think, and that’s just gotten, that has, you know, childcare’s not gotten solved. Paid leave’s not got solved. You know, these problems all still, minimum wage is still $7.25 at the federal level. It blows my mind. So there are. So I think that you can just be for making people’s lives better and easier and making their fit without having to get pigeonholed in an ideology if you have thought really clearly about who you are and what you’re doing, why you’re running, why are you doing this, you know, like that’s always, that’s the thing and not just listening to, polls. So I think that in 26, and it’s early, it’s only April. And I think the individual candidates, the people running for Senate, the people ready for governor, we will see that and that’s gonna help start putting a better brand on Democrats. But you can’t just, because it’s very, the pox on both your houses is very easy, particularly given the way the 2024 presidential race went down where Harris just had such little time to deal with all of the. It was very easy to throw all of the things that people don’t like about the Democratic Party onto her. And then in 28, I feel like the 28 primary is gonna be brutal in the best way and that it will be brutal to live through for the candidate.

Alex Wagner: I’m already feeling like—

Jennifer Palmieri: I hate them. I know I hate him so much because I hate them so much, because even though I’m a Democrat, a lot of those candidates are gonna—

Alex Wagner: You hate the candidates so much. [laughter]

Jennifer Palmieri: Oh, and then they, you know, and then, uh, then you’re, you know, people are on different sides and it’s so.

Alex Wagner: Oh yeah. Oh, it’s gonna be fierce. Can I, I wanna get your thoughts on this because there’s been a lot of talk about, you know, the various factions of the Democratic party, whether Democrats should be talking about the factions, whether the faction should be, you now, factions at all. Hasan Piker, who’s very prominent kind of, I will say more left-wing commentator kind of. Although he doesn’t fit necessarily neatly into one particular box, but definitely trends toward the further left, left end of the spectrum. Was speaking to Jon Favreau here at Crooked HQ. I say here, I’m in New York, at Crooked HQ in Los Angeles.

Jennifer Palmieri: Here at World Headquarters, yes.

World Crooked Headquarters. And Hasan essentially says that he wants to be courted by the Democratic Party the same way that, you know, the Democratic party is trying to entreat Trump voters and skeptical moderates and independents to the Democratic parties. Let’s just play a clip of it, because my My recounting is subpar.

[clip of Jon Favreau]: You said you wouldn’t vote for Gavin Newsom against J.D. Vance in 2028. Yeah, third party.

[clip of Hasan Piker]: I mean, I don’t I don’t even think that’s going to be a problem.

[clip of Jon Favreau]: Well, I like a lot of people, including people who share a lot of your critiques of the Democratic Party, hear that and think like this is the problem. You know, when the stakes are concrete, like a Vance presidency and other four years of what we’re living through. The people who say they’re building a movement would rather preserve their own power than do what winning requires and hold your nose and vote for what you believe would be the lesser of two evils. Like how do you respond to that?

[clip of Hasan Piker]:  I want the Democratic Party to treat me like a never Trumper I want The Democratic Party that treat me. Like a triple Trump voter okay, cuz it turns out that’s all they’re tuned into. So if that if what it takes for the Democrats to turn around and be like, wait a minute, we’re losing this guy we have to win him over again or whatever instead of just like taking my vote for granted as they’ve done so over and over again for the left flank. And then you know, I’m gonna say things that may or may not end up being true but it doesn’t matter. We’re so far out from the election anyway that it’s like, I’m just saying, look, now is your opportunity to find a good candidate instead.

Alex Wagner: Okay. So, I mean, there’s a lot there, but the essence of it is, you got to work for my vote. Even though I’m on the left, you’ve got to work for my vote. What is your reaction to that?

Jennifer Palmieri: Okay. As you know, I pay pretty close attention to politics. I had no idea who this guy was.

Alex Wagner: You’re you’re among you’re not alone in that but—

Jennifer Palmieri: And I like and I’m and I am not like I’m not like an old lady who’s like tuned out like I am tuned in and I’d like understand you know how the ecosystem news on it like and. I don’t know this guy is really except for the fight that he had with you know that like except for the fight that he is the fights he’s getting into with Tim Miller or you know that you know that Tim is having on his behalf whatever it’s like it’s not it’s just not about you like I just don’t like I. Just don’t the idea that you have to segment your message to appeal to a certain flank it’s just not how politics works in the real world it doesn’t you know how it works in the real world I think is he has a following I understand. He’s a large following, I guess, right? Sort of, ish, I don’t know. Let’s just say he does, say he does. Then the Democratic nominee needs to be someone who is giving young people a reason to turn out and vote. Like the people who win don’t win because they have a targeted message to one population that leaves out the rest of the voters, right. But I think somebody will win because. Not because they’re on Hasan’s show, necessarily, I assume he has a show, but because they are giving young people a reason to turn out, right? And he’s, they’re assuming that, and I think you get enough people a reason to turn up because you have, because you, this is what I think is required. You have to respect the American people that has to be clear that that’s who you are. You have really love this country and you have to have a proven record and a plan for how you’re going to make people’s lives better. And I think you do that for young people, you do for older people. And I just, I don’t think that the ideological, there are individual issues that are relatively small and relatively small in their importance to voters that are still falling under long ideological lines, but I just don’t that’s how it is anymore. You know, the 2020 presidential campaign, like that we, you and I lived through.

Alex Wagner: Yeah.

Jennifer Palmieri: It was like the Twitter, I mean, it was like a make believe synthetic Twitter primary. It was, like we went, Joe Biden was at the top of the list in 2017 for who Democrats thought should run against Trump. And I don’t think he, even as bad as he did in the primary states, even as poorly as he performed sometimes in the debates, I don’t think that ever changed until super, and then in super Tuesday, he won big. My point being… We can all have fights among ourselves with micro-targeting and different ideological sets of voters, but that’s not how people experience the campaign and that’s how they vote. And it’s gonna be about that person having, I think, the experience of getting things done, a good plan and really good communication skills so that they can reach out directly to the kind of people that are listening to Hasan and maybe they don’t agree on every single issue, but you see this candidate’s got a way to make my life better. And I feel like that is going to be how you win and in 28, there’s going to less filters than ever that people have to go through. And Democrats, that’s what Democrats need to worry about. Not that you got to go on his show, but you need to have a platform. You got to be on all the platforms so that you can reach everybody where they are.

Alex Wagner: I just hope that whoever the nominee is, they go after J.D. Vance and his book, Communion, released the same weekend the president called for the destruction of Iranian civilization, this anti-Christian administration that he sits nearly at the top of. He’s got some tough questions to answer our good shepherd, J.D. Vance.

Jennifer Palmieri: Do you feel like J.D. is the Jeb of 2028, Jeb Bush?

Alex Wagner: Listen, Marco is also a Catholic. And I just feel like… Let’s just not forget the value set here of this administration, as these guys surely wear religion on their sleeve as an argument for their candidacies. Like, this is some false prophet shit, and I hope they are called out for it. Whoever the Democratic nominee is, this should not go unanswered.

Jennifer Palmieri: Just let Rahm run wild. I mean, this is, this benefit. This is the benefit of a big, you know, so many people are like, I hope this person doesn’t run. I hope that person doesn’t wrong. We can’t have that. It’s like, it doesn’t matter. Everybody who wants to run should run. If they do well, they do. Well, if they don’t, they’ll have to drop out. And meanwhile, like, let Rahm be the tip of the spear and all this stuff and like start making way way for other Democrats. I feel like that’s great.

Alex Wagner: You just heard it here, folks. There’s the strategy. Rahm Emanuel is the tip of the democratic spear, attack dog for the masses that will be running. I look forward to your candidacy, Jennifer Palmieri [laughter] someone who knows more about the American public than most Democrats.

Jennifer Palmieri: I’ll be announcing on the Hasan Piker show. [laughter]

Alex Wagner: That would be chef’s kiss. You are the best. Thank you for dropping wisdom and knowledge for me, for us. It is great to see you. Please come back again soon, Jennifer Palmieri. [music plays] That is our show for this week. Please don’t forget to check out the show and our rapid response videos on our YouTube channel, Runaway Country with Alex Wagner. And if you are somehow not sick of me yet, please take a look at my Substack, How the Hell with Alex Wagner, which has all kinds of videos and weird extensive musings from my adult brain. Last but not least, if you have been impacted directly by the Trump administration or its policies, please send us an email or a one minute voice note at runawaycountry@crooked.com. And we may be in touch to feature your story. A huge thank you to everyone who has written in already. Runaway Country is a Crooked Media production. Our senior producer is Alyona Minkovski. Our producer is Emma Illick-Frank. Production support from Megan Larson and Lacy Roberts. The show is mixed and edited by Charlotte Landes. Ben Hethcoat is our video producer and Matt DeGroot is our head of production. Audio support comes from Kyle Seglin. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Adriene Hill is our Head of News and Politics. Katie Long is our Executive Producer of Development. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writer’s Guild of America East.