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For a transcript of this episode, please visit crooked.com/whataday

TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Thursday, March 20th, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show that really cannot get enough of watching Republicans get absolutely rocked at town halls. This time, it’s Representative Mike Flood of Nebraska. 

[clip of crowd chanting] Cancel him. Cancel him. 

Jane Coaston: Is that ASMR? [music break] On today’s show, the Trump administration plays things real chill and calls attacks on Tesla dealerships domestic terrorism, and the Federal Reserve keeps interest rates steady amid mounting economic uncertainty. But first, are we in a constitutional crisis? That’s the big question on the minds of legal experts right now. President Donald Trump has been whining about judges who rule against him since, like, what seems like forever. But he’s taken both his rhetoric and his threats to new heights this week. His beef is with the federal judge who tried to block his administration from deporting more than 250 migrants, mostly from Venezuela. The judge has asked the government multiple times to answer some very basic questions about those deportation flights, like, you know, who was on them? And when did they take off from the United States? He’s even given the government an extra day to reply. But apparently asking those questions was very mean, according to Attorney General Pam Bondi, who was on Fox News Wednesday. 

[clip of Attorney General Pam Bondi] This judge had no right to do that. They’re meddling in foreign affairs. They’re meddling in our government. 

Jane Coaston: See, he does have the right, Attorney General Bondi, and he does because we don’t actually know if the hundreds of people on those planes were dangerous or guilty of anything at all. The administration has released almost no information about the deportees, and the Justice Department’s lawyers in the case have basically been like, ‘We did nothing wrong, you’re just gonna have to trust us,’ because national security, et cetera, et cetera. But to press secretary Karoline Leavitt, the legal pushback is a political conspiracy. During her Wednesday press briefing, she really leaned into the idea that the judge was wrong because his politics are bad. 

[clip of Karoline Leavitt] This judge, Judge Boasberg is um a Democrat activist. He was appointed by Barack obama his wife has donated more than ten thousand dollars to democrats and he has consistently shown his disdain for this president and his policies and it’s unacceptable. 

[clip of unnamed speaker] You took me right where I wanted to go about the the idea that these people are all foreign terrorists, but Judge Boasberg was originally appointed by Georgia W. Bush and then elevated by Barack Obama. I just feel like I should clear that up. 

Jane Coaston: During his Fox News interview Tuesday, President Donald Trump insisted that he would never disobey a court order. He literally said, you can’t do that. But then a few hours later, he said on Truth Social, quote, “If a president doesn’t have the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big trouble and destined to fail.” And his best friend and co-president, Elon Musk, seems to want judges who rule against the administration impeached for, as far as I can tell, ruling against the administration. According to the New York Times, Musk is even maxing out donations to members of Congress in support of impeaching judges. And now the right wing is all riled up about this. Here’s commentator Mark Levin loudly agreeing with the impeachment calls on Fox News. 

[clip of Mark Levin] The american people are losing faith in the judiciary. We can’t have a judicial oligarchy of unelected judges at the trial court level who aren’t even in the constitution telling the president what to do on human resources on the border on deporting criminal illegal aliens. 

Jane Coaston: Shorter version, the wambulance has arrived. So basically, a swath of the American right has decided that if judges won’t give the Trump administration what they want, those judges should be removed. Which sounds like a constitutional crisis to me. So to talk about this moment and its significance, I had to speak with Leah Litman. She’s co-host of Crooked’s legal podcast, Strict Scrutiny. Leah, welcome to What a Day. 

Leah Litman: Thanks for having me. 

Jane Coaston: So this dispute between Trump and the courts over these deportations has a lot of very smart legal experts worried that we may be heading for a constitutional crisis. And I keep seeing people on the right basically saying, get rid of all the judges. Any judge who rules against us is bad and evil. That sounds like a constitutional crisis to me. So are we in one? 

Leah Litman: I think we have been in one for a while. The president’s systematic disregard for anything approximating the law is antithetical to a constitutional system. When he declined to spend funds that Congress had appropriated, I think that that is anti-constitutional behavior. It just undermines a premise of our constitutional system. When he’s summarily deporting people and claiming the authority to do that without due process of law and sending them to a country they have never been to, that is a constitutional crisis. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah, are we in like a are we in a new phase? Like what what is different–

Leah Litman: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: –about this particular case? Because Trump hates judges who rule against him. That’s something that we we’ve known about him for, what, 10 years now? But–

Leah Litman: Yeah, yeah. 

Jane Coaston: This case where you literally have a judge saying, you can’t do this. And not only is the administration doing it, but then they’re bragging about it on Twitter. 

Leah Litman: Right. I think it’s a few things that separate this case from some of the others where there was questionable compliance. One is I think the facts suggesting non-compliance are just more clear and more public and transparent than they have been in other cases. Because in other cases, there were disputes about whether certain funds had to be restored under the order or whether they could be canceled, for example, for other reasons. Here, it’s clear they deported people under the Alien Enemies Act. And it’s also clear a plane took off after the judge issued the order, right? You can’t really dispute that. What’s also clear is, as you say, they are straight up bragging about it, right? You have his border czar um on Fox basically saying, judges ain’t gonna tell us shit. You know, you have the president of El Salvador basically doing the laugh cry emoji saying too late and Secretary of State Marco Rubio retweeting it. So yes, right, the specter of noncompliance has taken on, I’d say additional force and it’s just looking more transparent here. than it has in other cases. So is this a new phase? Um. Yes, but honestly, every few days has felt like a new phase in this unfolding constitutional crisis. And that’s not to understate the severity of it. It is instead to underscore how deep in this we already are. 

Jane Coaston: Here’s what gets me. So on Twitter, you have members of this administration acting as if they are the biggest, baddest bitches on the block. But in court, lawyers for the Trump administration insist that they actually are following the law, even though the judge ordered the planes to turn around and then they just didn’t. 

Leah Litman: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: They’ve also stonewalled him when he asked for more information about how many flights there were, who was on them, and about whether he had the right to ask those questions? Which who is on the flights that you’re sending to another country to a super prison seems like a pretty basic question. What do you make of the arguments or lack of arguments the Trump administration is making here? 

Leah Litman: I mean, it was truly stunning. The hearing at which the government lawyer basically told Judge Boasberg, I am not authorized to tell you anything besides we are in perfect compliance and there is nothing to see here, Your Honor, was astonishing. I mean, he basically was telling Judge Boasberg, I can’t tell you classified information, which is false. Right, Judge Boasberg hears classified information all the time. He was one of the judges appointed to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA. 

Jane Coaston: Right. 

Leah Litman: By Chief Justice Roberts and the administration wouldn’t even say the reason why they were refusing to disclose the information to Judge Boasberg, which is part and parcel of asserting things like state secrets privilege or other you know rules that might allow them to refuse to answer questions. It was, again, ridiculous. 

Jane Coaston: So if Trump flouts the courts, what can the courts actually do about that? What kind of enforcement mechanism do they have for a rogue president who believes that he’s, I don’t know, even weirder Andrew Jackson? 

Leah Litman: Yeah, um contempt and civil fines are the short answer. Um you know judges can hold in contempt you know different officials. Honestly, I think Judge Boasberg could hold in contempt the government lawyer who was basically telling him, go fuck yourself in court the other day. He can also hold in contempt you know potentially other federal officers who are carrying out the orders, impose civil fines on them. So that is the tool that courts have to order compliance with their decisions. Is it a universally effective one? No. Um. Is it going to guarantee that the Trump administration is going to follow the orders? No. But that’s kind of what they have. And I think the other big tool you know that we have seen in American history is when officials try to defy right, or raise questions about whether they are going to comply with court orders. Sometimes you will have other branches of the federal government basically stand with the courts. I think that is part of what makes the situation we are in so concerning, is you have the Republicans in Congress rolling over, you know and doing whatever thing to debase themselves that Donald Trump demands. And so the lack of other branches being willing to stand with the courts is part of what makes this, I think additionally concerning. 

Jane Coaston: In Trump’s temper tantrum against Judge Boasberg on Truth Social, he suggested Boasberg should be impeached. And impeachment might be possible, but removal and conviction is not, given the numbers in the Senate. So what’s behind these calls, besides the basic, I hate these refs? 

Leah Litman: It’s a delegitimation campaign. Right. They are attempting to grease the wheels you know for efforts to, let’s say, not comply while insisting they are complying. Right, they are trying to work the refs, right, and convince everyone kind of within the Republican coalition that these judges are illegitimate and their rulings are. And that could make it easier for the Supreme Court right to reverse these rulings um if they have right like all of the Republican coalition kind of on that side. So I think they are just trying to move the goalpost and the overton window. 

Jane Coaston: Trump’s call for judicial impeachments was so alarming that Supreme Court Justice John Roberts weighed in, albeit with like a virtual wrist slap. But still, something. And I think a lot of people took it as a pretty big deal because it’s very unusual. What did you make of that?

Leah Litman: It is very unusual. And so I’ll give him like half a crumb of a cookie, uh–

Jane Coaston: Okay. 

Leah Litman: You know for doing that. You know he also did this during the first Trump administration. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah. 

Leah Litman: When he said you know there are no Obama judges, Trump judges. And you know it is important right to have people, right, officials standing up for the idea that presidents have to comply with the law. Um. I would note that John Roberts failed to do that. Right, stand up for and stick with the idea that presidents have to comply with the law last summer, right, when he was issuing the immunity ruling and effectively putting Trump above the law and allowing presidents to behave like kings. And so it’s a little rich for him to come around and all of a sudden say like, oh, I am shocked and surprised that presidents are acting like authoritarian kings when I basically laid the groundwork for that to happen. 

Jane Coaston: Now this really, this bothers me on every possible level because I know that there are people who are gonna hear about this case and say, so what? Some of the people who were deported may have belonged to a violent gang. You’ve seen some of those responses online of like. 

Leah Litman: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: Well, this person who was murdered didn’t get due process. And I’m like, that’s not how this works. But that’s definitely the message the Trump administration is pushing. 

Leah Litman: Oh yeah. 

Jane Coaston: Even though it’s released almost no information about the people on the planes. 

Leah Litman: No. 

Jane Coaston: Some of them may have entered the country illegally. And I wonder if you could reflect on those facts as it relates to why the Trump administration might have chosen this case to test the legal limits of a judge’s order. 

Leah Litman: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: Do you think it’s a coincidence? I do not personally. 

Leah Litman: No, I don’t. No, I don’t at all, right. Just like they, you know, used this never used authority to deport, you know, non-American citizens on the ground that the secretary of state determines them to be right potentially adverse to foreign policy. And they just happen to select like one of the lead protesters, you know, over the uh protests involving Gaza and the Biden administration’s support for, you know, Israel’s military campaign. They were hoping that people would say like, we don’t agree with the protests and we find the speech, right, distasteful and not push back for that reason. Um. So too here. The administration has not bothered to make any finding or showing that all of these individuals right are members of you know Tren De Aragua. Um. And you know their family members are saying they are not. And again, the idea that the president just gets to unilaterally determine who is dangerous, right, and gets to be shipped off right to a country they have never been to, to effectively like a prison labor camp. is grotesque and appalling. There is no limiting principle, and this is just straight up authoritarianism. 

Jane Coaston: Leah Litman. Thank you so much for joining me. 

Leah Litman: Thanks for having me. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Leah Litman, co-host of Crooked’s legal podcast, Strict Scrutiny. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines.

[clip of Jerome Powell] Today, the Federal Open Market Committee decided to leave our policy interest rate unchanged. 

Jane Coaston: The Federal Reserve Wednesday decided to keep interest rates flat, but officials also warned the Trump administration’s tariffs have thrown the future of the economy into question and could make it harder to curb inflation. Fed Chairman Jerome Powell gave a press briefing Wednesday after the bank’s latest meeting. He told reporters the Fed still expects to lower interest rates twice this year, but it also expects economic growth to slow and inflation to rise amid Trump’s trade war. 

[clip of Jerome Powell] I do think with the arrival of of the tariff inflation, um further progress may be delayed. 

Jane Coaston: But Powell calmed some fears of a recession. He said while some economists outside of the Fed have raised concerns, the Fed doesn’t think we’re there yet. Thank you, Jerome. I’m still scared, but thank you for saying that. President Trump said he had a quote, “very good telephone call with Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky,” Wednesday. A statement from the White House said the two leaders quote, “agreed on a partial ceasefire against energy.” It comes a day after Trump and Russian president, Vladimir Putin discussed ending strikes on Ukraine’s energy infrastructure in their own phone call. In a lengthy social media post, Zelensky said the agreement could be quote, “one of the first steps toward fully ending the war” and he’s ready to do it. It’s worth noting just how far Russia has been able to move the proverbial goalpost here in just 24 hours. Last week, Ukraine and the U.S. agreed to an unconditional 30-day ceasefire proposal. But in his call with Trump Tuesday, Putin only agreed to a ceasefire on energy infrastructure targets, all while the Kremlin continued launching drone strikes on Ukraine. Russia also accused Ukraine of launching strikes, but now it’s seemingly on Zelensky to agree to this far more limited ceasefire Russia wants. even though it was his country that was invaded. The art of the deal, folks. 

[clip of Attorney General Pam Bondi] They’re targeting Tesla dealerships. They’re targeting Elon Musk, who is out there trying to save our country, and it will not be tolerated. 

Jane Coaston: Attorney General Pam Bondi says she’s getting the Justice Department involved to help out Elon Musk. In a statement Tuesday, she called a recent string of vandalism attacks on Tesla dealerships, quote, “nothing short of domestic terrorism.” The attorney general added the DOJ has already charged several suspects, quote, “with that in mind,” and that investigations are ongoing. The attacks come in apparent protest against billionaire Tesla CEO Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency’s efforts to slash the federal workforce. Bondi elaborated on her statement on Fox News Wednesday with a warning. 

[clip of Attorney General Pam Bondi] We are coming after you. We will find you. And if you are an organized group who is funding this, we’re going to find you too. You better look out and you better stop it. 

Jane Coaston: While some peaceful rallies have been held outside Tesla stores, other showrooms, lots, and charging stations have been the targets of vandalism. Most recently, Las Vegas police said cars at a Tesla facility were damaged after someone set them on fire and shot bullets at them. Officials called it a, quote, “targeted attack.” They said the word resist was also painted on the store’s windows. Musk told Sean Hannity on Fox News Tuesday there is, quote, “some kind of mental illness thing going on.” 

[clip of Elon Musk] It’s really come as quite a shock to me that there is this level of really hatred and violence from the left. I always thought the left, the Democrats, were supposed to be the party of empathy, the party of caring, and yet they’re burning down cars, they’re firebombing dealerships, they’re firing bullets into dealerships, they’re just you know smashing up Teslas. Tesla is a peaceful company. Who’ve never done anything harmful. Um. I’ve never done anything harmful. 

Jane Coaston: I know Elon lives in a world where he’s just nice space guy, and not guy who accused a diver trying to save a bunch of kids trapped in a cave of being a pedophile and who will accept any conspiracy theory he sees. But I would like Elon Musk to look a fired federal worker or a recipient of foreign federal aid right in the eyes and tell them point blank, I’ve never done anything harmful. I’ll wait. And on that note, in fucked up things DOGE is doing at the behest of an unelected billionaire who may or may not actually be in charge of it, the department published a list Wednesday of nearly 800 federal real estate leases it says it wants to cancel. Among them are dozens of social security administration offices across nearly 20 states. The agency also announced this week it will be rolling out a tougher identity verification process. Starting at the end of the month, it will no longer allow people to verify their identities over the phone. Meaning, if any of the more than 70 million social security recipients and applicants can’t verify online, they’ll have to do it in person, at a social security office. Hopefully not one that’s maybe going to be closed. Oh, and did I mention the Trump administration also plans to lay off thousands of agency staff too? This is absolutely going to end well. And that’s the news. [music break] One more thing. The Environmental Protection Agency says it may get rid of its science research division and lay off more than a thousand of the agency’s scientists. In case you were wondering, that’s um bad. But to tell us exactly why it’s bad, I spoke with Anya Zoledziowski. She’s Crooked’s climate correspondent. Anya Zoledziowski, welcome back to What a Day. 

Anya Zoledziowski: Hello, good to be here. 

Jane Coaston: Anya, there’s a lot happening right now. So much that it’s hard to keep track. To start, can you briefly summarize what the hell is going on at the EPA this week? 

Anya Zoledziowski: Absolutely. Yes, it’s a lot. So Democrats on the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology reviewed documents that revealed that the EPA is now planning on eliminating its scientific research arms. So that’s the Office of Research and Development, up to 75% of its staff. So more than 1,100 scientists, you know chemists, biologists, and more could be on the chopping block. And so to put this into perspective, you know we’re talking about scientists who independently test what we’re exposed to, to keep us safe. So they look at wildfire smoke and how bad it is for health, forever chemicals in water, risks associated with toxic chemicals that are emitted from big industry facilities. They provide the foundational science that then informs policy and regulations that keep us safe. 

Jane Coaston: What has the response been? 

Anya Zoledziowski: Yeah, I mean, the EPA is going, going through a pretty major overhaul, it seems, you know, with Lee Zeldin’s plans for deregulation and threats of sweeping cuts. The latest news is a really big deal. I spoke with two staffers from the Democratic wing on the House Committee on Science, and they said that they were expecting a tax on science under Trump, but nothing like this. So here’s what the committee’s top Democrat, Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren said. 

[clip of Zoe Lofgren] EPA cannot meet its legal obligation to use the best science available without the Office of Research and Development. And that’s the point. Donald Trump and Elon Musk are putting their polluter buddies’ bottom lines over the and safety of Americans. 

Anya Zoledziowski: So she also said that cutting the office of research and development is illegal without congressional backing. You know, an EPA spokesperson told me that no decisions have been made yet and that they’re, and I quote, “actively listening to employees at all levels to gather ideas on how to better fulfill agency statutory obligations.” But several sources have told me that they haven’t heard from, you know, any career staff or anyone at the office of research and development that’s been consulted. 

Jane Coaston: Something that we ask a lot on this show is can he actually do that? And something that’s really scary about this administration is so far they don’t really seem to care if they can or they can’t they just do it anyway. When you say it’s illegal does that even matter? What are the different outcomes here?

Anya Zoledziowski: Yeah, you know, for now, I don’t want to to speculate with what will happen, but I would take everything that the EPA is saying as of late very seriously. You know, the agency has traditionally been the frontline defense for communities against big industry, and if the EPA does everything that Lee Zeldin says he wants to do, we’re looking at huge environmental protection rollbacks, less oversight, and a clear path for big industries to forge ahead with fewer guardrails. With this news specifically, we’re risking the science that has enabled the agency to push for protections. So we’ll see what happens, you know, concretely in the weeks and months to come. But it does seem like the EPA is in for a major makeover. 

Jane Coaston: Anya, as always, thank you so much for joining me. 

Anya Zoledziowski: Thanks so much for having me. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Crooked Climate correspondent Anya Zoledziowski. This segment was supported by our nonprofit partner, Crooked Ideas. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a review. Contemplate how the Department of Defense believes you can discuss Major League Baseball pioneer Jackie Robinson without mentioning race and tell your friends to listen. And if you are into reading, and not just about how seriously, the Department of Defense says it deleted websites about the Navajo Code Talkers and Jackie Robinson because quote, “we do not view or highlight them through the prism of immutable characteristics such as race, ethnicity, or sex,” like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston, and when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in Major League Baseball, can the Department of Defense tell me what that color was? [music beak] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Fohr. Our producer is Michell Eloy. We had production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. 

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