Ira and Louis discuss the SAG Awards, Roberta Flack, The Hollywood Reporter’s Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni cover, the AI photo of Trump sucking Elon Musk’s toes, and their favorite TV moms with critic Emily St. James (author of the new novel Woodworking). Melanie Lynskey joins Louis to discuss the new season of Yellowjackets and more.

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Louis Virtel [AD]

 

Ira Madison III And we are back for an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira Madison, the third.

 

Louis Virtel I’m Louis Virtel, and as you know right now I am staying at The White Lotus with everybody in America watching along. I have some worries about this season. I think it’s going to be fine. I think it’s going to get more exciting. I feel like we don’t need more White Lotus after this. Am I crazy?

 

Ira Madison III They are already scouting for season four.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, so I’m already wrong. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III I want to say that I saw a comment on Instagram about the season, which was truly wild to be. Someone wrote that Parker Posey is doing an annoying Jennifer Coolidge impersonation, and I was like.

 

Louis Virtel Oh baby, step off.

 

Ira Madison III In what world?

 

Louis Virtel Not once ever, Parker Posey, say, what you want about her is never imitating anybody. The original party girl. No.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. This season is. It’s fun. It’s a soap.

 

Louis Virtel Right? Well, I mean, you know how the show works. By episode four, things will be upside down and crazy. And, you know, a monkey will have a gun or something. Like, we have no idea what’s going to happen. They. There’s always the calm before the storm with White Lotus. I just feel like there isn’t too much here so far. That is novel as far as the season goes. Like the the dynamics between like, the girlfriends are a little bit familiar. The the family that’s full of shit and the dad is in financial trouble. It all feels like things we’ve sort of seen before. So I’m really hoping some novelty creeps into this season, especially since I am emotionally bereft because one of the greatest singers of all time passed away this week. And that would be Roberta Flack. Roberta Flack, when this woman, first of all, even though her hits are fully 55 years old, this is, you know, the first time ever I Saw Your Face is 1969, I believe. Was shocked to realize she was 88 years old.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I mean, I love Roberta Flack. I mean, I first found out by people just sharing either the first time I ever saw your face in their Instagram stories or just being like, First Take is such a great album. And I was like, well, yeah, but like, why everybody all up in Roberta’s business today?

 

Louis Virtel Leave her alone. Yes. Let her get her Kennedy Center Honors and move on. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III I don’t think she’d be invited anyway.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah? Well, used to exist, the Kennedy Center. God, we are so in for it with that. Who’s going to be winning in the next couple of years? It’s like Billy Ray Cyrus and the ilk.

 

Ira Madison III Another song of Roberta Flack that I absolutely love is Tonight I Celebrate My Love.

 

Louis Virtel Of course.

 

Ira Madison III Duet with P.B.. P.B., who’s Peabo Bryson.

 

Louis Virtel The duetest maybe of all time.

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Louis Virtel If you’re a woman and you’re walk past Peabo Bryson. Careful. He’s pulling you into the studio. Careful.

 

Ira Madison III He never met a woman he couldn’t make a duet with.

 

Louis Virtel No. Right. And it sounds like fucking on the track every single time.

 

Ira Madison III When I first saw, like, the video that didn’t have, like, Disney characters in it for, like, beauty and the beast. Yeah. With like, Peabo in it, I was like, oh, these are real people.

 

Louis Virtel Right? No, it was confusing. Like Peabo Bryson and Regina Belle, that’s not Aladdin and Jasmine. What’s going on here?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And Roberta Flack is just such a voice.

 

Louis Virtel What I would say about her is for, first of all, it’s an extremely calming voice. So you would put it maybe in the same bracket as like a Karen Carpenter. But then this other thing happens where it’s clear as a bell and yet gives way to an incredible sensuality, which, much as I love Karen, that was never her bag, you know, so some people take no time at all that sort of become famous. And she’s one of them because the voice was so pure. You can’t not listen to the whole song. It’s so immediately compelling and so not contrived, just the purest possible talent. And of course, killing me softly with the song, which, by the way, the original version of that song, which is by the songwriter Laurie Lieberman, really, really good. If you all you knew was that you probably wouldn’t think it could even be improved upon. But then, of course, Roberta’s version is the standard. And she became, I think, the only person or the first person to win record of the year twice in a row.

 

Ira Madison III I want to ask you about her song, The Closer I Get to You.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III With Donny Hathaway now, what do you think of the Lutheran Beyonce version.

 

Louis Virtel Well, Luther always I am a fan of and also just him collaborating with women because that’s some gay shit. You know, like he when he and like Whitney are like clacking hips and singing, you know, like that’s that’s a gay old time. I think Beyonce is always giving a good tribute to people of the 70s, like the Tina Turner’s, the Roberta Flack, whatever. But I prefer the original.

 

Ira Madison III I still have to see Luther, the Never Too Much documentary.

 

Louis Virtel I haven’t seen it myself, and I’ve been very curious about it, especially since with him so many people knew he was gay for so long. Like, I interviewed Arsenio Hall once, and he knew at the time when he was on his show that he was gay. So there’s just like a whole history there. That’s very fascinating.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. In between all the woo woo woo.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Yeah. He didn’t fit in with the rest of the dog pound. You know what I mean?

 

Ira Madison III I think he fit in somewhere else though. In a At a kennel with a word we don’t use in polite society.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Gross. All right.

 

Ira Madison III I’m just quoting the women.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. Right. Oh my God. Wait. The the the Rosalind Russell movie.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. What? She wants to call them bitches.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes, of course, of course, yes. Right. Yes, yes. Very funny. Such a good movie. If people don’t know the women with Rosalind Russell and like Joan Fontaine and Ginger Rogers, that’s like among the movies that holds up the best of the 30s. And those women are bitches.

 

Ira Madison III Even though as long as how.

 

Louis Virtel Quite well. I mean, it’s and it’s based off a play, so of course it has to be a million years long.

 

Ira Madison III I think most people are actually familiar with the abomination that is the Meg Ryan remake.

 

Louis Virtel And that was when we decided, actually, Meg Ryan were voting you off the planet. You’re not going to exist for 15 years.

 

Ira Madison III Stay away from that movie. Okay?

 

Louis Virtel There’s a PBS version And they film the live play of it. I remember Kristen Johnston from third Rock from the sun is in it and she is amazing. Look, that. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III All right. What else are we talking about in this episode? Louis, you have a solo interview this week?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes, with the fabulous Melanie Lynskey. We’ve been fans of this woman for I can’t believe it. Over 30 years, that’s when Heavenly Creatures came out. She’s, of course, coming back in the new season of Yellowjackets. People from New Zealand, do they get any sweeter? This woman is like a doll. And then, by the way, after I did this interview, I went to a preparatory dinner for the SAG Awards, and she was there too, and was just as lovely and hung out with Jason Ritter too. What a fun little fam!

 

Ira Madison III See you had a lens kiki!

 

Louis Virtel I did, and yet she’s the lens Kiwi being from New Zealand.

 

Ira Madison III Speaking of the SAG Awards were this week, obviously you wrote for them.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III So we are going to discuss the SAG Awards this week on the show, and then we are also going to be joined by fantastic writer Emily St. James To talk about her new book, Woodworking.

 

Louis Virtel Now, this is going to be hard for people to believe, but in the early 2010s, there was a bit of a heyday of awesome writing online, people reviewing TV, reviewing movies, and Emily was the number one somebody I went to all the time to get her take on television, and I’m so psyched she’s here with us.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. That is I mean, I can’t wait to talk about that. And we’re going to talk about, like, our favorite TV moms with her as well, which ties in with her book Woodworking. But the A.V. club like Television Without Pity.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Bring that shit back. You know, I feel like when you read recaps of TV shows now, and I mean, really, the only shows that get recap these days are vulture sort of recaps everything like The White Lotus and stuff, but I mean, mostly gets people like recapping, like Real Housewives and stuff. And it’s There’s very few people. And these are people who are sort of like a holdover from like they used to work at Jezebel, you know, or Gawker or something, who really do like funny recaps that let you know what’s going on in the show, but then are also like giving you something else. You know, I feel like it’s a lost art form.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. And also, they have that patina of connoisseurship too. Like you’re not just watching people dog on a TV show. There’s a sense of knowing this stuff really well. Emily is in the pantheon with people like Emily Nussbaum or Dan Feinberg, who works at The Hollywood Reporter. Not just fabulous writers.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. So we will be right back with more Keep It.

 

Ira Madison III [AD]

 

Ira Madison III Sunday Night was the 31st Screen Actors Guild Awards, where stars of the big and small screen all paused awkwardly when they heard Karla Sofia Gascon’s name.

 

Louis Virtel Me too. I think there’s always there was the sense being there. Like, what if she just shows up? I mean, like, who’s who’s stopping her? Really? You know what I mean? She doesn’t really have like, management or anything. So she kind of just could pull up in, like an abandoned ice cream truck.

 

Ira Madison III You know, I love it. She’s the Stefano de Mira.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Pulling off the baby switch. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III It’s like everyone in Hollywood is terrified that. So show up somewhere. And maybe she’ll blow up the complex.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, it’s a zany time, is all I’ll say.

 

Ira Madison III And of course, our very own Louis Virtel co-wrote the award. So we’re going to get into your experience behind the scenes plus the biggest moments of the night.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I was the co-head writer of the SAG Awards with Rashida Olayiwola. Who’s goes by “SHEEDZ”.  A standup comic. She’s written for a bunch of BET awards, and the highlight for me was that Jane Fonda received a lifetime Achievement award. So I was instrumental in writing Julia Louis-Dreyfus introductory speech for her. It’s nice to be tasked with something I can do absolutely in my sleep. It’s weird to be paid. Like, can you compile information on this strange fake movie goddess of the past, and like, oh God, I’ll think to what my favorite ones are. It was a pleasure to write. And then, of course, Jane Fonda herself receiving the award. I mean, is anybody better at giving a speech? I mean, I mean, truly, it’s like between Jane and like Martin Luther King, like, it’s like, really.

 

Ira Madison III She is another person who. I think I said this when Viola Davis got this as will be the Mill Award, another speech, I was like, there actually is a maybe industry for republishing, like just the speeches of certain actors, like the reward speeches, like events that they’re at. Because Jane Fonda, man, I mean, this clip always goes viral online, you know, and it’s especially now given, you know, all this, like, Trump bullshit with trans people right now. But this clip of her, like in the 70s, like in the Castro, you know, talking about how she’s supporting, like the gay rights movement, you know, and like, you know, do they need your help? And she’s like, they don’t need my help, but that’s what I should be doing right now. You know, like, it’s like it’s such a lovely, just matter of fact speech that she was giving in the, in the 70s, you know, like against Anita Bryant and all this other shit. And I think there’s always like, younger people finding clips of hers online and realizing just how like down she was. Yeah. From the jump.

 

Louis Virtel Down is exactly the word. And in the 70s too, she was she was with Harvey Milk protesting that thing where like, people could be fired from their jobs for being schoolteachers and stuff. So she was always like, on a cellular level, participating in somewhere. And of course, a decade before that, she was bringing the Black Panthers to the Oscars. This doesn’t need to be explained to anybody. She’s amazing.

 

Ira Madison III I want to see that movie, by the way.

 

Louis Virtel I would love to see that. But but also, you know, one day you are getting a biopic of Jane Fonda. I mean, I don’t know who’s going to play it, but it’s going to be a sprawling, strange movie. Watching her give the speech, though, I think the thing that is also just amazing about her is in addition to being woke as she redefined it brilliantly on stage. It just means woke means you give a damn about other people. That was fabulous. How and why is she so funny? How did it happen when Henry Fonda you watch old footage of him? It’s not yuks. You know, Tom Jones is given, isn’t given. Cluck, cluck. You funny? Funny? Never.

 

Ira Madison III I just love how she said, you know, like actors need to rise up, create empathy, make space in, you know, the big tent to fight what’s coming. And it’s just we had this period where it felt like actors were saying a lot of things. And, you know, I like being supportive, you know, and really trying to do the right thing circa 2020, etc.. And I feel like now it is just very easy for everyone to say nothing. You know, while our company are like, we’re just not going to hire people who aren’t white men, you know? Right. And also the industry is going to start shifting, you know, like what movies are going to start being made, you know who’s going to be in front of the camera and behind the camera too? And I think that she is like a great person to remind people like, yeah, you control that shit. You know.

 

Louis Virtel I want to say my take away as a viewer of the Sags, which I still haven’t really watched the entire ceremony. I was backstage with a lot of the celebrities before they went on, going through their teleprompter feed and making small changes if they wanted to make it. But my takeaway as a viewer, as an awards obsessive, we finally now know what it sounds like when Timothee Chalamet gives a speech. It’s so interesting. We think of him as like at the forefront of acting. You know, he’s always in the conversation when it comes to awards. Look at his Wikipedia for acting awards. Everything is just a nomination like nothing is a win. So the fact that he came up with the Best Actor win. And by the way, did anybody predict that? I thought it was Adrian’s in the bag. It’s a very crazy season in a number of categories, but the fact that he gave this speech seemingly impromptu, he did not seem very prepared for it in a cool way. He said that he wanted to be one of the greats and that it’s uncomfortable to say something like that, but he listed Marlon Brando and Daniel Day-Lewis and Viola Davis and compared them to Michael Jordan and Michael Phelps. And it’s weird that, like 100% of the internet, like, agreed. Say things like that. Own the ambition of what you want to do in acting because it also, by the way, we’re sort of lacking that actor, the one who’s out there just doing the Sean Penn thing of I want to be the best, you know?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I listen, I love Timmy talking his shit. Okay? First of all, he was one of the best dressed men. Like, maybe the best. Like, he looked insanely good with his mustache, with that green shirt of his, the black leather jacket. Like he’s slang, to be honest. And giving you real actor. And speaking of that, I got something to say.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, as you know, I have to listen because I’m on the podcast with you.

 

Ira Madison III Did you know that you can leave comments on Spotify now on podcasts?

 

Louis Virtel Oh God, that sounds bone chilling.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. In the vein of Timothy Shalom, some anonymous bitch wrote. Louis, please write a book so I can stop gloating about being an author. Game shows, Oscars, pop culture, anything. I’m begging you. No disrespect. IRA. I know you worked hard on such a fantastic book, but. Damn, girl. Now listen here, bitch.

 

Louis Virtel First of all. But damn, girl, who could argue with that?

 

Ira Madison III Now you listen here, bitch. When you work on something for four years, maybe you can gloat about it to your aunt if she gives a damn. Okay.

 

Louis Virtel I worked on this for four weeks, and I’ll be gloating about it for years. Please.

 

Ira Madison III Do it anyway, if you’ll just write to me now.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I say, oh, you’re owning your ambitions. Got it?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah. You know.

 

Louis Virtel All I’m saying is, like, it’s a very interesting Oscar season in terms of expectations for what’s going to occur, which is good, because that compensates for the fact that the movies are like across the board. Not my favorite in any given Oscar year. So it’s nice that there’s this narrative to replace the prestigious one I wanted to have.

 

Ira Madison III Actually, and I have a question for you now because I just played this get up, I felt like a grandmother on Facebook. But whatever you saw, what does like one of those add yours prompts? Oh yeah, Instagram or something, right? There was one with the Oscars best picture. Choose your favorite ten movies and it was from 1995 to 2024.

 

Louis Virtel Correct. I have seen that meme. I am looking at it now. Now let me say something. Best picture to me is not the most sterling lineup of any given award, I think. I think like actress and supporting actress are like more interesting than what I’m looking at right here. So if I had to pick my ten favorites from 95 to 2024, I am going with English Patient. By the way, don’t listen to a bitch tell you The English Patient isn’t all about do not fucking listen, Juliet kst Rafe. Sit down.

 

Ira Madison III You mean Elaine Bennis? Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Brilliant at giving speeches. Maybe the movie opinions aren’t as good from Jld. Anyway, I will say Titanic. I will say. Shakespeare in love. On down to Chicago into. I’ll throw in no country for old men 12 years a slave. Don’t let anybody tell you that’s a bad best picture. Everybody in it was a game. Into spotlight, moonlight, parasite. And then Nomadland, which I spent half my time online defending.

 

Ira Madison III My answers were Shakespeare in Love.

 

Louis Virtel Of course. The other finds we like him, too.

 

Ira Madison III I enjoyed Titanic, but, like, I’m not like rewatching it.

 

Louis Virtel I have friends who are like, fucking obsessed with Titanic and it has melted into my brain. Like, I feel like I’m sort of in duty bound to that movie. And also Kathy Bates in that movie slay.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Shakespeare in Love. Gladiator. Chicago. Chicago is like the top tier in terms of just Best Picture wins ever.

 

Louis Virtel And by the way, Renee did not win Renee as an all timer performance.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. The departed.

 

Louis Virtel That was okay. I feel crazy that Mark Wahlberg got nominated for that movie. He has the worst performance in that movie. Go ahead.

 

Ira Madison III No country for Old men. The Hurt Locker.

 

Louis Virtel The hurt had been locked, and I do enjoy the film. It’s like mid-tier for me.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Spotlight.

 

Louis Virtel Very entertaining. It’s sort of the conclave of this year. Like a bunch of actors we trust. Sort of a lean movie. Makes a point. I think spotlight is is one of the best journalism movies ever, though. And I feel like conclave is a pretty good movie.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Back and forth on like 12 Years a Slave. Most because, like, I never want to watch it again.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. I’m not like putting it on every Christmas.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. But, you know, you got to say 12 Years a Slave and then moonlight and parasite.

 

Louis Virtel Parasite. What a that was a banger choice. Like, finally, like, nobody can deny that that movie is an A-plus throughout. Maybe the the bombastic ending is a bit much and maybe even a little bit predictable, but everything else, it’s a suspense movie. It’s a family drama. It’s a comedy, has so much going on it.

 

Ira Madison III I think it just reminds me when I look back at awards ceremonies, you know, you look back at all Best Picture runners or like what people were nominated for. You know, you look at like Kathy Bates nominated for misery, for instance. Right? It’s just like, I feel like if you can look at this list, two of Best Picture winners, from Forrest Gump to Braveheart to, you know, like you can tell when the Oscars started shifting to what we call now Oscar bait movies, you know? And I just feel like I like when something like parasite, you know, or like Chicago, like fucking wins. Like it’s just a banger movie.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Like you. And you would probably put it on and get again. I’ve seen both those movies multiple times. Anyway, back to the SAG Awards. Conclave won the Ensemble Movie Award, and I find that to be. I think it’s a movie full of dependable veterans, and people voted for that. I just don’t I don’t think that will qualify it to be the best picture of the year. I still, though, it feels like the brutalist has totally fallen out of this game. At one point I thought that was for sure. Now it’s a maybe a Nora, which weirdly came out of the Sags with nothing.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, and I will say that before the Sags, there were like, betting odds for what was going to get Best Picture. You know, like the brutalist that like, dropped out and also a complete unknown. But I don’t know, I feel like maybe that won’t win, but Timmy might be getting into the conversation now to when.

 

Louis Virtel It feels like people may have peaked with Adrien Brody. That said, I can’t imagine voting against him. He’s so amazing in that movie. I just can’t imagine it. And I also feel like Tim is the best. Days are still yet to come. To me, this is barely in his top five performances. I would still put Call Me By Your Name, Beautiful Boy, which as you know, I am like a hard stand of little women. I would put ahead of this and even bones and all I would put ahead of this performance.

 

Ira Madison III I was about to say bones and all he tore in that movie. That is an underrated Luca movie to me.

 

Louis Virtel And he. Right. He was like, it was unsavory to put upon on it in, like, just an unexpected way. I he was doing something completely new in that performance. But anyway, do you know what was fucking nice about working backstage at the SAG Awards? So I was again, I was helping people at the teleprompter sometimes right before they went on. But like occasionally before the show, you see the people who are going to, like, solve all their acting problems at the teleprompter. Right then John Lithgow came backstage and he was preparing for the entire conclave cast. Introducing their clip at the end, he says something like, this movie’s about the weight of the church’s decisions, and I do mean weight, because those costumes weighed about 500 pounds. And that’s before you add the jewelry, which I have to admit I stole. Okay, now that’s like a comedic line. You can say it a number of ways. He stood there and he goes, I know how I’m going to say that line. And he promised he would get a laugh out of it. And the way he delivered it was. And that’s before you add the jewelry, which I’m proud, which I have to admit, I still like the way the way he did. It was so uppity and so surprising. It was like, wow, you are like a stage actor. You’re gonna, like, solve the reading there. Molly Shannon did a bit with Kumail Nanjiani, and she stood backstage and every line she underlined, she would change the color of certain text, and then you realize, oh, her entire career on SNL was teleprompter or cue card based, You know, so how it appears on the card affects how she’s going to say it. That was really cool to see for me.

 

Ira Madison III You know who else made me laugh? Jamie Lee Curtis giving Colin Farrell his award, saying, oh.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, goes.

 

Ira Madison III To the person who gave me Covid at the Golden Globes.

 

Louis Virtel And frankly, she would do it again, you know that. Also, she really came in this giant feather outfit and it was to invoke a name that’s already come up this episode. Rosalind Russell, it was very old Hollywood Nicole way.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Maybe she’s angling to be in the trailers now.

 

Louis Virtel Her energy could not be more the trailers. And yet also, I feel like it would come to violence with her in that house.

 

Ira Madison III I like beef, we all need to, like, jump into it fully for right now. But I do wonder. Yeah, obviously, you know, like celebrities are on the traders, right? But I’m like, what if we had like real like a B-list celebrities in the traders, like actors like Jamie Lee Curtis? Absolutely.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I mean, there’s no other way to put it. I say this eventually she will have a breakdown at the table. And talk about being underestimated. And you looked at me where? And I saw you. I mean, like, I don’t know what level of star we’re going to get alongside her if she does it. She doesn’t strike me as somebody who’s that familiar with reality TV.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, imagine Meryl Streep at the round table.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. Well, she’s keeping to herself no matter what’s happening. Speaking of which, I secretly I’m a writer for Meryl Streep. She read some copy about LA and like the Sag-Aftra Foundation, I had to write that. So I am just like Nora Ephron, where I write it down and then Meryl reads speech.

 

Ira Madison III Writing is kind of really fun.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I agree, I agree, and it’s like you can spend a lot of time getting it right to. And then, you know, they throw in their own little voice or like take things out, put things in. It’s like really pleasurable actually.

 

Ira Madison III I think my favorite one that I ever did was I wrote a speech for John Mark ballet.

 

Louis Virtel May he rest.

 

Ira Madison III I know I had to have several phone calls with him because he was giving an award to Laura Dern.

 

Louis Virtel As he should. You know, I defend that marriage story. Win. And I have friends who hate that win.

 

Ira Madison III Well, you know, I’m Team J-Lo.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, that was the hustlers here, right?

 

Ira Madison III Maybe that’s the key. Actually, even, like a red rocket. You know, I think the sticking actors that are famously known for something else or something glamorous and sticking them into, you know, a weird, different, interesting world that’s also just as, you know, the stakes are also big for those people is just really fun to watch.

 

Louis Virtel Well, by the way, also this week in the Independent Spirit Awards and Sean Baker won big at those. And I thought his speech one of the best award speeches in the past few years, where he talked about being an independent movie lifer and how he doesn’t he’s not making these movies as a quote unquote calling card, like he’s not trying to land some like nine episode Marvel series or whatever where he gets paid $1 million. And he emphasized how much he likes being able to make creative choices in his movies. Having total freedom. And part of that is casting who he wants to cast. And I really kind of underestimate how important that is in a director realizing their vision. Like, people are obsessed with their being a casting Oscar. But when it comes to movies that have a huge budget behind them, it feels like it’s almost never really about who’s best for the role. It’s about who is conveniently brought in because you got that other actor and you’re doing a favor to this casting person or that agent and stuff, so that feels very sticky to me. Him emphasizing that a huge part of his process is casting who he wants to cast was very affirming, because when you watch his movies, those people belong in those roles.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s when you get into what an art tour really is. You know, it’s Mike Lee selecting his actors for his film and then coming up with the film after, you know, it’s I want to work with these specific people. And I love just the way whether you not you love like, every single Sean Baker film, I think the performances that he gets out of actors is fantastic, and I love just the people that he loves to work with.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, it’s weird that prior to a Nora, the only person nominated in any of his movies was Willem Dafoe in The Florida Project. Obviously, he was really good in that movie. Everybody in Red rocket was amazing. We had Simon Rex here. He was fabulous, a Florida project. The girl in that movie was so good. And then before that, Tangerine, those performances, we had a whole hubbub about how they weren’t allowed in the actor roundtables that were everywhere. I mean, just truly like they’re an essential part of his unforgettable films.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. You know who else was not allowed at the actor roundtable? You know, when she was nominated for gone with the wind?

 

Louis Virtel Hattie McDaniel. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Right. Yeah. The Hollywood Reporter said, what are you doing in here?

 

Louis Virtel Right. They said, there’s a smaller table over there. You can set up.

 

Ira Madison III Your fountains outside.

 

Louis Virtel At the time, Hollywood Reporter was run by Michigan Jfrog, which people don’t know.

 

Ira Madison III Where did the roundtable start, by the way?

 

Louis Virtel That’s a good question because it feels like a pretty recent invention. I can’t think of too many that seemed like they were really all, that’s probably ten years old or something.

 

Ira Madison III Okay. I want to ask you then, since you’re familiar, obviously, with who was nominated, who won each year, give us a year where you would love to have seen an Actor’s Roundtable for the nominees, men or women?

 

Louis Virtel Well, I mean, this is a standard gay guy response, but it has to be 1950 Best actress because you’ve got Betty Davis, who is allergic to giving a bad quote, has like she sits down and casually insults 80 people and is hilarious and then brings up the marvelous Claude Rains. There’s like, she gives you everything, But she’s there. Nominated in 1950 with Gloria Swanson and Sunset Boulevard. Another fabulous interview. Check her out on Dick Cavett and Judy Holliday, who won for Born Yesterday, who allegedly had an IQ of 170 or something. So just watching the three of those girls spar and figure out who’s going to win. And then, because, of course, the years later, Betty Davis would claim that she deserved to win. So I imagine it would get a bit catty.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I think I’d like to watch that too. And lastly, what do you think of Kristen Bell as the host?

 

Louis Virtel The fabulous. Well, I watched her in rehearsal and she did a parody. Do you Want to Build a snowman called Do you Want to Be an actor? And you would think, oh, that was written by some comedy writers. Do you know who wrote that? The Lopezes. Oh, yeah. The. You got winners. Did that version and did all the research on the actors in it to make all those jokes extra. Excuse me. Like, like they really worked hard on that. It was very funny. Even though the it was an interesting decision that she styled the whole ceremony kind of around her career, but it worked because everybody there was like a such a SAG standard actor. So that really worked too. But speaking of people to me afterwards, I kind of just wanted to go home, I was exhausted. It was a fun ceremony, you know, a lifelong dream to write something like that for Jane Fonda. Whatever. I happened to be standing at the after party next to Danielle Deadwyler, and I said I was like, I hate when people go up to people. I was like, but I was like, I think I can earn this moment. I went up to her and I said, I just want to say that you are my favorite actor currently working. You are a genius. Carry on. You were amazing at Carry On. You were amazing and till you were amazing. And piano lesson, she was like, oh thanks. She was so down and rad and like, it’s crazy that she hasn’t been on this podcast yet. And she looks sensational, by the way. And that was the only nomination she got this entire season from SAG. For a piano lesson.

 

Ira Madison III Let me tell you the awards. They are dead. By not nominating Daniel Deadwyler.

 

Louis Virtel Oh my God, you should work in advertising. These plays on words. Oscar Wilde. No comment.

 

Ira Madison III I lastly want to say to you this was not the SAG Awards, but another one of my favorite moments from an awards this past weekend was this moment with Keke Palmer, who is imagine her not being funny.

 

Louis Virtel I forgot to bring up her backstage. She did her teleprompter copy because she did a thing at the SAG where she said, raise a glass if you’ve ever been on Law and Order, and she was adding little jokes to it. When is this woman not fucking hilarious? It’s exhausting. Like, the talent is like shooting from her.

 

Ira Madison III She won entertainer of the year at the NAACP Image Awards, and she goes up there and she says, thank you all. This is such an honor. I didn’t think I was going to win, you know, because of and price to set the album, he found the audience. I’m like, this woman is always funny.

 

Louis Virtel It’s crazy. No, she’s it’s like something genetically went wrong with her and she has, like a funny syndrome. It’s crazy.

 

Ira Madison III We missed it during nope that season. But, like, we really do need a Keke Palmer renaissance to be happening. I need her cast in so many things because honestly, I like Janelle Monet. Fine, right? You know, but imagine Keke Palmer in that role in Glass Onion.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, right. Right. She hasn’t really had the big ensemble movie.

 

Ira Madison III You know, we need to stick with one of those.

 

Louis Virtel Oh my God, she would have been so good on that. And Janelle of course, is one of the high points of that movie. But yeah.

 

Ira Madison III But to get her in a movie like that, a big ensemble where she can just cut loose and be funny as hell.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Done. Done. Before I forget something else that ruled at the SAG Awards, the cast of A New ERA came backstage to rehearse their patter for the presentation for the Nora clip. Now, as you know, we had your abrasive on this podcast. The. These are Russian speakers. And Mark Edelstein, who plays Vanya in the movie. He is a Russian speaker. They go through the patter, and one of the words that Mark Edelstein has to say is tenacious. He goes tenacious or something like that. And then after we read it, somebody goes, do you want to change that word to something else? He goes, if it is good or do we keep it? He had never heard of it before. So funny. They were such sweet guys. It made you think that filming that movie must have been such a pleasure.

 

Ira Madison III They didn’t get tenacious D over their in Russian.

 

Louis Virtel I guess not, no, and they never will because they broke up.

 

Ira Madison III Damn you, Putin.

 

Louis Virtel Obviously the Oscars are next week. Anything could happen is an exciting season.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, I was reminded of the Oscars Sunday. Because we rescheduled my book tour event. By the way, if you’re listening, the DC one, which was snowed out, I’m doing it Sunday at 3 p.m. at Politics and Prose on Connecticut Avenue with Dan Zack of The Washington Post.

 

Louis Virtel One of my very, very good friends.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, yes. And he was like both of you to be doing this on Oscars Day. I said, oh, the Oscars on Sunday, it’s preprogram. And he said Louis would be extremely irritated at you forgetting that the Oscars were Sunday.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Right. Dan, that’s a a legit queen. I bet beside each other in Fire Island and I just. What did I say? I said some old lady name at him. I was like Eileen Atkins. And he goes, Joan Plowright. That’s anyway, that’s how that’s how gay men are greeting each other.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Well, we will be right back with Louis and Melanie Lynskey. But before that, a few announcements.

 

Ira Madison III [AD]

 

Louis Virtel This week’s guest is one of those rare actresses who you think is going to deliver one thing, and then completely blindsides you with something different and visceral every single time. You know her from leading roles in films like hello, I Must Be Going and Heavenly Creatures, of course, and also from her scene stealing work in Coyote Ugly, Sweet Home Alabama and other classics. Today, she’s here to give us the latest on Yellowjackets season three, which is airing now on Paramount Plus. Please welcome the resplendent Melanie Lynskey.

 

Melanie Lynskey Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m such a huge fan of yours. It’s like crazy.

 

Louis Virtel I’m thrilled you’re here. I mean, you’re you’re one of these people where I could go to any part of your career and just stay there and talk to you about it. So I’ll. I’ll do my best to stay current for a second, which is, first of all, we’re in Yellowjackets Season three. Of all the characters you’ve had to stay with for a long period of time, and you’ve only done a couple of like, TV series for long periods of time. What is it like to be with this character? Over three seasons? Are you surprised how she’s changed and evolved?

 

Melanie Lynskey I yeah, I had some surprises this season for sure. Like, it gets pretty feral towards the end. I was like, oh wow. Okay. It’s really fun. I mean, Christina and I both say it like, we would do this forever. We made, like, a little pact to just do it. Do it as long as we can. It’s so fun. I never know what’s going to happen. Every script I read, there’s something surprising, and I just. I really love it.

 

Louis Virtel There are so many actresses on this show who’ve been basically around for the same amount of time, like emerged sometime in the 90s. Yeah. How do you guys relate in ways that are maybe not even apparent to us, the viewer? Like? Do you have a shorthand for how long you’ve been in the business? Do you relate in ways that surprise you?

 

Melanie Lynskey Yeah, I mean, there’s a real shorthand on many different levels because we also all have children. And so, you know, there are some days where one of us is really rushing to finish the day because we’ve got to get on a plane to get back for something for our children. And there is like other mothers, just understand that in a way that men, even men who have kids often don’t, you know, it’s just a different sort of responsibility. And then there’s also I’d like the other day we all did The Drew Barrymore Show and they said, oh, come up with a secret. And Drew’s going to go around and guess whose secret is hers or whatever. And Lauren Ambrose was like, what if we all name someone we were sexually harassed by? And then.

 

Louis Virtel Okay.

 

Melanie Lynskey Drew can guess which one of us was sexually harassed by him and then say whether he harassed her, too. And we laughed so much. But it was also like, that was the time we came up and, you know, it was like we can all relate on that kind of level in a way of like we were kind of in the trenches in this industry together, and it’s such a different world now. I hope it remains this way. But yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Also, you were clearly exhilarated to meet Drew Barrymore as you were exhilarated to meet Kelly Clarkson recently. And I have to say, it kind of surprises me as somebody who literally has done everything in the business, that you can be surprised to meet a celebrity. And I’m wondering, what is it about, like, you know, the stars you haven’t met that actually still excites you? What is it that, like, makes you think, oh, I’m still excited to meet a celebrity?

 

Melanie Lynskey Oh my God. Well, drew, I’ve known for many, many years. She’s just an excitable person. And then I get excited to be there. Kelly Clarkson is Kelly Clarkson. I watched that season of American Idol. She’s she’s the American Idol to me. And she’s just so incredible. Like, I don’t know, I feel like a very ordinary person and I’m starstruck to meet you. I’m just like, oh God, this is happening. This is crazy. It’s like people I respect and admire and then I get to have a conversation. It just feels crazy to me.

 

Louis Virtel We have to talk about that season of American Idol quickly. Where you were you, Kelly, the entire time, or did you have a moment when you voted for Ryan Star or Jim Ross or any of the other people that season?

 

Melanie Lynskey There were a lot of great people that season, but there was also Kelly Clarkson. Right. So what are you going to do? Right. Sorry to those people. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of that, you were on Colbert recently and you started the interview by saying how nervous you were and you’ve talked and talked before about being sort of soft, soft, spoken in your everyday life, but it still surprise me that you would be nervous for an occasion like that because you’ve just been doing press for so long. I mean, like Heavenly Creatures is now over 30 years ago, and I’m I’m curious, what makes you nervous about something like that?

 

Melanie Lynskey It’s terrifying. It’s like the stakes feel very high there. They’re not very high. It’s a talk show appearance. You could do a terrible job, and nobody would. It would. People will be like, oh, that was unfortunate. And then completely move on. I also really respect and admire him. I’d never met him before. And then I very, very shy. I got very nervous and then the nerves did not go away. Which is unfortunate. Usually you get out there and then there’s like a rhythm and I’m like, oh, I’m fine. But I just wasn’t fine. I don’t know, I just continued to be nervous, so.

 

Louis Virtel On the set of Yellowjackets, are there any particular actors you you not to pick a favorite, but have there been moments where you like to specifically watch them? They make choices that maybe you wouldn’t make, and you’re like, where the hell did that come from?

 

Melanie Lynskey I mean, there was a moment last season where it was a very simple little scene we were doing where we go into Lottie’s compound, and Juliette was just saying hello to us, and she did something that was so weird and human and fragile. She looked like a little bird all of a sudden. And they said, you know, the scene finishing. They say, cut. And I found myself with like, tears in my eyes. And I was like, okay. And I turned around and Lauren Ambrose was also crying. And I was just very relieved that somebody felt the same as me. And Lauren said, it’s almost religious watching her. There’s something she is channeling something. That’s so profound. So that’s the first moment that springs to mind, because it was so nice to connect with Lauren about that. But all of them, I mean, I’m going to sing with all of them and I’m just like, this is so fun. This could go on forever.

 

Louis Virtel Juliette Lewis career, though, is full of moments, but we’re like the sheep. She makes choices that can only be described as berserk. And then also. Yeah, real. Yes, I of course I’m thinking of Cape Fear right now, like the couple of moments she has with Robert De Niro. But have there been moments just watching her as a spectator that come to mind when you think of, like, her greatness and other things?

 

Melanie Lynskey Oh, I mean, that show camping, right? Which I really liked and thought was so fun. She is so strange and amazing on that show or old school. Like, I’m thinking of random ones, but she’ll show up and she’ll do something where you’re like, how is that the performance that’s happening in this project right now? And it’s so perfect and nobody else could do it. And I mean, I just, I could just name everything she’s ever done and feel that way about and obsessed with her.

 

Louis Virtel But a lot of your characters also have this beguiling quality where, as I stated in the intro, it’s not just that they have a turn or that they have a quote unquote hidden depth. It’s that they know themselves way better than we thought they did. And, you know, they reveal something to us of their kind of self-possession that can be either scary or just more human. And I guess my question is, do like surprising viewers, is that a part of what the thrill of acting is for you?

 

Melanie Lynskey I do like surprising people. I think the thing for me is it’s very fun to play something underneath something else. So it’s really fun to have a secret, you know? Doesn’t Meryl Streep say she always has a secret?

 

Louis Virtel Right. Yes.

 

Melanie Lynskey Which I love. But it’s really fun to have something that you can think about while you’re saying something else or behaving a different way. It’s just when things are layered. I find that really interesting.

 

Louis Virtel And you in particular, part of your process involves this kind of dream thing you do, which I don’t believe I’ve ever heard another actor, like, describe it this way. Can you go into that process and it sounds like you are still consistently doing this. You have committed to this as an art form.

 

Melanie Lynskey This is the only acting work I’ve ever done and it works for me. So I’m just going to keep doing it. And Lauren Ambrose does it too. Actually, she and I have the same teacher. And then bat, the creator of the show, Bat Nickerson. He and I were talking about it and he was so interested in it. So then he did a workshop with my teacher and found it really interesting and exciting. So basically, you ask yourself for a dream for a specific project, like for the season, I asked myself for a dream. They that sent me the first couple of episodes because I said I want to do some dream work, and he was super excited. So I got the first couple of episodes, and then you write and write them right before you go to bed, and then you wake up and whatever dream comes to you is what you work with for the material, and it’s always really interesting what comes up. It’s always something that’s surprising because it’s going into a part of your unconscious. You know, because in the second episode, the character of Lottie comes to Shauna’s house and I was like, oh, she doesn’t want her there. It’s disruptive. It’s too triggering. And then I had a dream where there was a woman staying in my house, and it was a woman to like back in an old relationship. There was like a betrayal or whatever. And that was the woman. And in my dream, she was like, in my bed, just like typing on her computer, doing some work. And she was like, oh, is it cool if I’m here for a few days? And I was just my whole body was just screaming in the dream like, no, it’s not cool that you’re here for a few days. It’s insane. And then when I woke up, I was like, oh, of course it feels like that for sure not to have Lady Countless. Not just like, oh, I wish lady wasn’t here. It’s this person who represents something so horrible you’d never want to see again. So it’s, you know, things like that. Like they give you your dreams, like give you information.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, are you shocked to have that sort of casual a conversation with your unconscious before you communicate with it in the night? I mean, like, it’s like it’s mind blowing. It’s mind blowing.

 

Melanie Lynskey Yeah, it’s really weird. It’s so fun. It’s so fun to me. And then I love hearing about other people’s dreams. Whenever someone starts apologizing for explaining a dream, I’m like, please don’t apologize. I would only talk about this if you want to.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, just to have that casual connection. I mean, it feels like paranormal. Like you’re somebody who has a crystal ball or something.

 

Melanie Lynskey It’s amazing. It’s really it’s, you know, it’s a tool that everybody has. It’s so amazing to get that kind of insight.

 

Louis Virtel Another ensemble you’re a part of that I just loved and still find so underrated as Mrs. America, which came out like the second the pandemic drop. It was like March 10th. Mrs. America came out. Yeah. And everybody in the ensemble got something fun to play, even if it was something kind of dastardly. You played one of the, shall we say, bad guys. Yeah, but what was it like working in that ensemble? One and two. Have you ever been a part of an ensemble where you actually wanted another role, as in maybe a more heroic kind of role, and you got to watch somebody else play it?

 

Melanie Lynskey Oh gosh, what a great question. Not wanted another role, but there are times when I when I think like, oh, I wonder if that would be fun. Sometimes I look at Christina playing Misty and I’m like, Misty would be so fun. I would love to play Misty. Like, it seems so fun. She gets such funny lines sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. But I’m usually like, very in what I’m playing. And they’re happy to be there with Mrs. America. I was very happy to be there. It was great. Cate Blanchett, I did not know before, and she hugged me on the first day and said, we’re finally working together. I was like, I didn’t know you. It just was so disarming that she had any knowledge of me, let alone behaving as though she had had this long held dream of working with me. Which cannot possibly be true. But it was very, very sweet. And she’s so fun, like Cate and Sarah Paulson and I. I’ve never laughed so much on the set. Just crazy giggles. Just absolutely insane. It was really, really fun.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, the fact that you’ve got to hang out with specifically that pair of people ever since they’ve done they did campaign stops for Ocean’s eight. And then, of course, they were in Kerry all together. A part of me is like, this is like the Thelma and Louise of my dreams. So it’s nice to know that there’s some of that was real.

 

Melanie Lynskey It’s all real. It’s absolutely real. They’re so open with each other. They’re so funny. And then I know Sarah a lot better than I know Kate. And then there would be times where Sarah would be like. Did you tell Cate Blanchett about. She would say, Cate Blanchett. Did you tell Cate Blanchett about this, like, incredibly personal thing? And I’d be like, I didn’t, Sarah. Like, no. And then she’d be like, tell her about it. It would be like, I’m listening. It’s it was such an odd, fun, fun, fun experience. And now Cate knows a lot more about me than she probably is expecting to know.

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of people you’ve known a long time. A movie I saw you and I think about a lot. Is this movie called The Intervention that you did with your lovely husband? Perhaps the loveliest husband there is Jason Ritter.

 

Melanie Lynskey I think so, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel And also your longtime friends, Clea Duvall and Natasha Leone, who, of course you did. But I’m a cheerleader with. But Clea also directed this movie and I was wondering what the experience is like being directed by a friend.

 

Melanie Lynskey It was very interesting. She wrote the movie for me when she was getting it financed. There was a lot of pressure to cast a more famous person because it was such a fun part, and she really stuck by me. I’m very appreciative and it was really, really fun. We definitely did some kind of dancing around tricky moments. Like, she would have an idea and I would have a different idea. And we were so, so, so polite with each other when we were disagree. And that was a bit tricky. I just have to be like, oh no, I just really think I know where it’s going and just try to trust me. And she’d be like, I do trust you. I just really want to see a different thing. So there was like a little bit of compromise because I will defend quite fiercely my instincts. And then she was very sweet when she was editing. She was like, oh, now I see what you were doing. But it’s it’s interesting. I mean, she’s my best friend. So it was a very I was terrified about working with her, but it was great.

 

Louis Virtel That’s so interesting to me. Is there a specific time you remember with a director where you disagreed fiercely and you basically never came to an agreement? Like, what do you do in that circumstance? I mean, if you have an instinct and you’re going to defend it, like what happens?

 

Melanie Lynskey I have had those times, and I’m thinking of one in particular that I shouldn’t talk about and I want, but it’s tricky. It’s also difficult because I don’t really audition any more, which I’m grateful for because I hated it and I was bad at it. But it’s it’s hard because they haven’t sort of signed off on your vision of it. So you show up and you’re doing the thing that instinctively feels very right to you, and you just have to hope that people are on the same page, and almost always it works out. There’s sometimes like little hiccups, like a lot of the time. I did a show years ago, and there was one director of one episode who just was like, you’re not doing anything. I need to see more. You’re not doing anything. And politely, I tried to say, you’re watching it on a monitor that’s this big, you know, I, I am doing things I can’t I can’t push it beyond what feels natural to me so that it’s more visible on the monitor. Like, no disrespect. And he did not like that and was very like that was just a there was a became a bad experience. Like it just wasn’t very fun. And then he got in the editing room and I got a message from him like, oh, I’m so sorry. It was great. It was just very subtle. And I was like, well, thank you. But it was.

 

Louis Virtel That sounds like someone who might be a little inexperienced in television. Because it feels to me. Really?

 

Melanie Lynskey Yeah. I think he maybe was used to seeing people who were giving bigger performances. But it became a thing where, like, I was getting notes like try to give him something to work off of. And I was like, okay, I am. It’s always my intention is to be in the scene with the actor. But that’s yeah, there’s only been a couple of times, thankfully, like that. And I do have to, you know, a lot of actors are like, oh, it’s so hard because then you do it bigger and then you regret it. You see the thing and you regret it. But I cannot like, I can’t do something that I don’t believe in just because somebody’s saying. And it’s tricky when it’s the director, like you’re supposed to give all your trust. But I have to. There’s a part of me that has to also trust myself. And I’m just like, I. I know when it’s not real anymore, you know?

 

Louis Virtel No. A part of my brain changed once I found out that Julianne Moore was fired from that movie. Can you ever forgive me? That eventually went to Melissa McCarthy. And it was just the director and Julianne Moore didn’t agree, basically, on how the character should sound or where it where the arc should go or whatever. And I’m like, right. Like, if you just come to an impasse, what happens, you know?

 

Melanie Lynskey Yeah. That’s so God, I didn’t I did not have that piece of information. Melissa McCarthy is so great and perfect in that movie.

 

Louis Virtel I love her in that movie. Yes. No, I’m glad we got that performance. But it’s like, wow. Yeah, it was Nicole Holofcener and Julianne Moore. There should be a movie about that.

 

Melanie Lynskey I would watch a movie about that. I would literally I would devour a movie about that. Yeah. Especially on a film. It’s it’s imperative. It’s trickier when you’re on a show and there are different directors coming in, and you have to set up your language with the different directors every episode and figure out how you communicate with each other and what they like to see and how much rehearsal they want. And, you know, it’s just a getting to know people. And in a way, every episode can be difficult.

 

Louis Virtel If you could pick one director whom you’ve had the ideal working relationship with. Who would it be?

 

Melanie Lynskey There are so many. Oh, yeah. There is a director who did a couple of episodes of Castle Rock, and he also did a couple of episodes of Candy is named Michael Up and Down. And I’ve talked to Sarah Paulson about this. Like, we both think he’s the one of the greatest episodic, most incredible directors. So brilliant, so great with actors. Very, very, very smart. Very kind. Absolutely love him. Steven Soderbergh had a wonderful experience with Jamie Babbitt. I always have a lot of fun. I mean, there’s just so many. I’ve had a lot of really dreamy, great experiences. Karyn Kusama I always really like Nicole Holofcener directed an episode of togetherness. Oh, and working with her. I mean, it’s one of my dreams of all time was to work with her. And that was really fun. Like, really, really fun. I just I’m just going to keep naming. And there’s so there’s so many. I’ve had a lot of great experiences. Jay and Mark had loved working with.

 

Louis Virtel Oh of course.

 

Melanie Lynskey Two places. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel You’ve had a number of indie movies that I think are underrated, one of my favorites, and this movie never comes up anymore, and I love every performance in it. Namely, the kid whose name escapes me, whom I never see in movies anymore. I don’t know what happened. Win win is such a good movie and such a downer like it goes there. I don’t know, but yeah, like every actor and that is perfect. Paul Giamatti is the star of it. Do you have any particular memories of working on that movie?

 

Melanie Lynskey I have so many memories. I loved making that movie. I loved Tom McCarthy. Yeah, I got to work with Alex, the kid’s name on it, and he was so wonderful. Yeah. Paul Giamatti. Amy. Ryan, Margo Martindale. What a dream. It was so fun. There was a weird discovery made on that movie, which was that Paul Giamatti and I have a lot of chemistry, like just natural, kind of amazing chemistry. So since then, it’s always been my dream to do like a romantic comedy with him. I think that would be so fun. Like it’s really there. There was like one scene where the director was like, we can’t use the same because you guys seem like you’re on a date. Like, for me, for my character, I was like, I think that’s how she relates to me in like, I don’t think she knows how to just be a normal lady in a car with a man without being a bit like you could sleep with me if you wanted to. I think that’s just her natural kind of way of relating. But I guess for that moment in the story, it was a bit confusing. But yeah, that was super fun. Amy Ryan is so cool.

 

Louis Virtel She is awesome. Very underrated.

 

Melanie Lynskey Yeah. I mean, she’s so good. I loved that movie.

 

Louis Virtel My last question is, I’ve gathered just from, like, seeing you on Twitter. You’re somebody who is interested in acting like you watch a lot of movies and stuff. And I was wondering, but you also, to me, are a very thoroughly modern actor, like, you belong in this time. Like you’re not melodramatic in the way of, like an old movie actress, like a Betty Davis or something. But I was wonder if there’s any in particular, you know, Golden Age actor that appeals to you specifically, who maybe you either find inspiring or just find fascinating in general?

 

Melanie Lynskey Gosh. That is such a good question. This is not exactly right. But I remember, like as a teenager, I got really, really obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. I know it’s like a little later, but like really obsessed with her. Like, I watched every single Performance and then watched it again because it felt really like modern what she was. It was it was so sort of put on, but there was incredible groundedness to it. I got really, really into watching her for a time.

 

Louis Virtel Well, it’s funny that you mention her because when you were talking about small movements, reading on a monitor, I feel like she’s the kind of person where you might film her and it might seem like nothing is happening, and then you watch it back and it’s dazzling, you know what I mean?

 

Melanie Lynskey That was the thing. That was the thing that was so interesting to me about her. I was just like, yeah, there’s so much going on when it really doesn’t look like a lot. Yeah, I wonder if she got that note as well. Time. Like, can you just be more, can you be a bit bigger? She’s like, no.

 

Louis Virtel That was a pretty good Marilyn Monroe, by the way. That was pretty good.

 

Melanie Lynskey I wasn’t trying, I wasn’t trying. Oh God forbid.

 

Louis Virtel Wait, before I let you go, do you have a favorite Marilyn Monroe movie?

 

Melanie Lynskey God, there’s so many I do really love Some Like It Hot because she’s so funny.

 

Louis Virtel Oh Sugar Kovacic of course. Yeah, she’s so funny.

 

Melanie Lynskey You could name any. I just I think she’s amazing.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I love How to Marry a millionaire. So much fun.

 

Melanie Lynskey Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also very funny.

 

Louis Virtel Bunch of ladies. Good time. We could go on and on. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you so much for what you bring to the big and small screen. We’re never going to stop being interested. You keep it fabulous and entertaining and interesting.

 

Melanie Lynskey Thank you, thank you I this is so fun to talk to you. I just I love you. I think you’re so brilliant. I mean, everybody does. The entire world feels that way about you. It’s not a surprise. But thank you for talking with me.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you so much for being here, Melanie. Yellow Jacket season three, of course, is streaming right now on Paramount Plus. We’ll be right back with more Keep it.

 

Ira Madison III [AD]

 

Ira Madison III Before we started calling pop stars mother. We used to stand plain ol’ moms, especially the messy ones on TV. So today we’re going to rank the greatest TV moms. And joining our discussion will be Emily St. James, the phenomenal pop culture critic and author of Woodworking. The upcoming release from Crooked Media reads that follows a trans woman’s coming out in small town South Dakota. Emily’s novel, out on March 4th, tackles motherhood from every direction, so she’ll be the deciding vote when Louis and I inevitably disagree. So please welcome to keep it, Emily St. James.

 

Emily St. James Hi, everyone. It’s it’s great to be here talking about mom’s my favorite topic of all.

 

Louis Virtel Oh Good. How convenient.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, Louis and I were just saying, you know, before, you know, we started recording with you just how much we’ve enjoyed your writing, you know, over the years, I feel like, you know, the A.V. club, it was you. What specifically to your name, you know, and I mean, that feels like such a lost industry now.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, it’s the A.V. club was I worked myself way too hard. There I was, recapping 15 shows a week at one point, which was a bad idea. Nobody should ever do that. But I certainly learned a lot about writing from writing 15 TV recaps a week. I, I was tired all the time, but I was also in my 20s so I could do that sort of thing.

 

Louis Virtel What was the most pleasurable type of show to recap, and what was the hardest for you?

 

Emily St. James I did really love recapping the big like prestige shows Mad Men, Game of Thrones, that sort of thing, because like, there was always stuff to talk about. I really struggled with reality. I know that, like Pete, there are people who are really good at that kind of recap. I tried to do it a couple times. I just could not get my brain around it because there’s a, there’s a sort of it’s almost a snarky or form of recap. And I just, I, I’m a little too self-serious to do that. Another one that was hard was I did Big Bang Theory for a couple of years. And like, I don’t hate that show like a lot of people, but it’s a hard show to recap. Let me tell you that it’s not a lot to talk about there.

 

Louis Virtel And also because in that case, you’re just sort of reciting jokes that are stated on the show. They’re like, and here comes a joke. They said, you know, there’s just not much value in revisiting it.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, it would, you know, I would be like, well, here’s the character dynamics for this week. But they didn’t really change. So there wasn’t like, you know, it was like, oh, Sheldon sort of thing. And everyone thought it was nerdy. And you’re like, okay, great. So yeah, it was it was tricky, especially compared to like, I was covering community at that time. And that show at least was trying things every week. They didn’t always work, but they were always doing something.

 

Ira Madison III So yeah. Well, I am, you know, the resident Big Bang Theory defender on this podcast for years. So I read those and I watch Big Bang Theory and I’ve always found, you know, I’ve done some like Housewives recaps before, you know, and I feel like the ones that are always easier to sort of recap are shows that I enjoy. But there’s there’s something happening where I’m a little upset with or I think that this could be fixed in the production of the show. You know, I feel like recapping something like Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, which I love, is my favorite franchise currently. When you love a show so much. It’s just so hard to end up recapping it. Because what? What am I saying? Just I enjoyed the scene over and over again.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, I think that what the best kind of recap season is, a season of one of your favorite shows where they are like off just a bit. And so you’re like, I don’t quite know what’s working here. And then when they pull it together, like, especially if it’s a season where they’re building to something at the end and they know they’re doing that and you don’t, then it feels like really I think a lot about lost season three, which gets so beautifully.

 

Ira Madison III And so messy. Yeah.

 

Emily St. James And you’re like, where are they going? And it turns out everything is being pulled together toward that ending. But yeah, for a long time there, you’re just like what is happening right now. And it ended. It’s probably the best ending the show ever did. But they had to do the mess to get there.

 

Ira Madison III I would just say lastly about like TV recaps, especially from that era, a show specifically that was always. I feel like everyone did great recaps of Was Buffy, but particularly like the last two seasons of the show, because they were people who were fans of the show. And then either you like the direction it went in or you didn’t. But, you know, a lot of people had so much to say each week as it was unfolding.

 

Emily St. James I remember probably the start of my writing on the internet was I would get on an X-Files message board every week and just be like, what are they doing to Scully? What are they doing to my girl?

 

Ira Madison III You know? Speaking of recaps, your new book, which we’ll get into later, focuses on motherhood. So I say it’s time we jump into recapping our favorite TV moms.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I have to say, when the topic came up, I was surprised the first person who came to mind as a towering figure in this demo, because I feel like Jane Camera captured something about being a harried mom that has not been wasn’t top before or since, and I almost can’t put my finger on what it is she does other than making. She was exasperated, but it’s like she accepted that as part of her life or something. It was just so lived in for such a crazy comedy. I’m talking about Malcolm in the middle. I was shocked that she came up first, but I think she might be my favorite of all time.

 

Emily St. James I love her, she plays Lois did they didn’t have a last name on that show?

 

Louis Virtel Correct. They were just the first name.

 

Emily St. James She. She plays Lois, and she is. She was nominated for an Emmy every year that she was on. Never won, which was really a shame, but she really. I think the thing you want in a TV, mom, is you kind of want her to be your mom, but you don’t want her to be so perfect that you’re like, this is an alien. I would feel weird being parented by this person. And Lois really walks that line of, you feel like she’s a loving and caring mom, but you also can see where she just loses her mind sometimes being part of this family and having four sons. Five sons. I think by like the end of the show, which honestly, I have one kid and that seems like to me it seems like more than one kid is just too many. One kid is too many, honestly.

 

Ira Madison III You know, I’ve talked to, you know, about how I don’t love the respectability politics in The Cosby Show so much. But I really have to commend Claire Huxtable for being a great mom to watch on TV. And she seemed like the better parent, you know, in the show.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, I yeah, I love Claire. She is it does feel to me like she is that super mom. But in a way like Felicia, Rashad’s performance is so lived in and so warm. Then you’re like, oh yeah, this is a person. This is not like a collection of, you know what? This is who I wish my mom were. Stereotypes. Like, she really does. She’s a she’s an impressive career woman, but she also will come home and just shut down her husband’s crap, like, right away. And it’s I that that she’s toward the top of my list if I, if I. Yeah. If I were to sit down and seriously think about it.

 

Louis Virtel I would really compare her with Elizabeth Montgomery on Bewitched, because a part of what they are doing is in in with a stillness about them controlling everything going on. You know, like Elizabeth Montgomery’s not letting you in on exactly everything that’s happening. She’s not letting her family on on exactly how she’s controlling everything. And Phylicia Rashad, just with the, you know, the side eye mastery that she brought to that show. It was literally I you would you would say it was almost like she was a magical TV, which in a way, you know, it’s like, and here comes the one liner that will put you in your place, and we’re moving on.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Emily St. James Yeah. It’s it’s a show that obviously is not easy to watch now for many reasons, but like I will I will occasionally pull up like great clips on YouTube of like her best scenes or, you know, moments of her in the kids and just sort of pretend someone else isn’t there. Just be like, yeah, he’s I don’t know who that is. Why is he here?

 

Ira Madison III I think he’s like jello. Yeah. Rice.

 

Emily St. James That’s the jello, man. He comes by with jello. Everyone forgot that character was on the show.

 

Louis Virtel Who are your favorite TV moms who haven’t been named so far?

 

Emily St. James We talked about Buffy already. I really want to shout out, Joyce, that is such a there’s such a hard part to play. You’re the mom of a superpowered teenager. You, like, don’t entirely know what’s going on. You have to be the one who’s like, honey, why were you out so late? And then the show gives her such a beautiful arc of, like, understanding what her daughter’s up to. Suddenly having a second daughter she didn’t know about. And just, like, rolling with that. And it’s it is a wonderful presentation of like, honestly, what it is to be a mom to a teenager where, like, you don’t entirely know what they’re up to and you just have to have faith that they’re figuring it out. She was such a also a wonderful presence as a single mom, which is, you know, I think we haven’t really talked about just yet. She, like, made that show feel like Buffy had somewhere to come home to. And ultimately all of Buffy’s friends had somewhere to come home to.

 

Ira Madison III I really think about, you know, season two of that show where they really start to make Joyce feel like a lived in character. It’s when she finds out, sort of like the Buffy as a slayer, you know, becoming where she wants her teenage daughter to stay home, you know, like, what is this? You know, and she’s finding out all about it. And Buffy is like, I have to save the world, you know? And she then leaves the house and, you know, she hears her mom say, if you leave this house, don’t come back. And you know, Buffy, it’s a take that, you know, for her word, you know, and she she runs off to LA and stuff. And I think that season three, when she comes back, is just really beautiful writing and that show with her. Yeah.

 

Emily St. James And that episode, barn Candy, where she gets to be a teenager herself.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Emily St. James So it’s such a fun performance. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of mothers, a single moms, I think if Jane Cash’s American Malcolm in the middle is descended from anyone, it is Bonnie Franklin on One Day at a time playing Ann Romano, the mother of Julie and Barbara, who are Valerie Bertinelli and Mackenzie Phillips and something I love about her, and also of Helen Morgan, Darfur, and Daria, who is the mother of Daria and Quinn. They seemingly have nothing in common with their own kids, and yet I don’t doubt for a second that they are those parents because they’re so concerned for them, and they and their kids are kind of aliens to them, which I love is just a concept, you know, like like if you met my mom, you’re like, oh, that’s Louis’s mom. They like they look alike. Whereas here sometimes though, like, you’re just like, how will Daria turn into that woman? Like, it doesn’t make any logical sense. And yet there’s some sort of bond there too, and that they have to kind of figure each other out and sort of in order to have a sort of successful parent kid relationship.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, I think that the the Daria is especially like a good example of like, yeah, this idea that you get your kid and you kind of have to just roll with who this kid is, because I think often in fictional moms, there’s this idea of like, oh, I have to shape my child. I have to mold them. And like you two, have to do a little bit of moral instruction. But especially as they get to be like Daria his age, you kind of have to be like, okay, let’s let’s go off and have your own life and I’m going to support you however I can. But that may not be the right kind of support you need. And I think that’s a that’s a tricky line to walk. I also I do want to shout out both both mom both one day at a time moms wonderful TV. Yes.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yes. Fabulous. Yes.

 

Emily St. James Yeah. And also she’s a grandma. But Rita moreno in in the remake is is wonderful as well.

 

Louis Virtel Just every third scene she can still like put her leg over her head. Rita moreno I mean, I as I’ve said before, there might be a thing. Such a thing as being too spry. I just something is going.

 

Ira Madison III On there.

 

Louis Virtel Cosmically, that I’ve never understood.

 

Ira Madison III The original Tate McRae. Yeah, but.

 

Louis Virtel She could perform greedy today.

 

Ira Madison III I’m saying.

 

Emily St. James If you. I have interviewed Rita moreno enough times to know that if you said she was the original tape maker, she would say, who’s that? Then she would, like, look it up and be like, oh, great. Good. I love it.

 

Ira Madison III I am going to mention a scary mom who, whenever she came on the screen, you do something terrifying was about to happen. But I am going to say Candy Alexander as Mama Pope on Scandal.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, the parents on that show are just like, I think that scandal is a lot about like the ways that the United States has, like, funneled all this trauma down on to people and like, but how that is often depicted through the family. And it does feel to me like, like Olivia’s parents are just like there as like this, this, these, these specters of like a past that is too dark to even imagine. But now we’re, like, funneling all that into our kid and, like, trying to make sure that she’s okay in a way that just irreparably warps her. And I love that. Like, I love the dynamic. Every time there’s a bad parent where you understand why they’re bad, but also you see the effects of that, if that makes sense now.

 

Ira Madison III And Shonda was so good at, I guess, just giving this second life to Candy, who had been on NewsRadio and like Joe Morton, it’s like they gave these powerhouse performances in this show and they were actually really like bond villain. Terrifying when they showed up on screen. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Bracing moms is a category I didn’t even consider. And now that you’ve brought it up, Nancy Marchand on The Sopranos. Okay, I came very late to The Sopranos. I did not understand that the Lou Grant lady was going to fucking rip it up when I turned on this TV show. And then, of course, she died in the second season, so you didn’t get much more of her. But man, like that performance to me should be as talked about as James Gandolfini on that show.

 

Emily St. James She’s wonderful and like the the way that she guilts everyone around her into just feeling miserable is just the perfect depiction of someone we’ve all known at some point, even if they’re not our mom. But like, we know somebody who has that mom in a way that is still like, watchable and funny. So often that sort of thing can become unbearable. But she just like walks that line of this woman is a monster, but she’s also, you kind. She’s kind of funny. You kind of enjoy listening to her complain about everything.

 

Louis Virtel And in the way that we’re talking about, some people just have to accept the organism that their kids are becoming. I accept monstrous parents just living out there like, I’m not like, I can’t watch this woman. That’s how she functions. She’s a monster, you know?

 

Emily St. James Yeah, yeah. I wanted to bring up. I feel like people will. Will feel like we’re being remiss if we don’t mention Tami Taylor Friday Night lights.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes.

 

Emily St. James I feel like what’s great about her is she is a mom to all the kids on that show, not just the one who’s her biological offspring. People can go to her house with their problems and she will listen and be like, here’s some good advice that should have been such a thankless role. That should have been a role that just didn’t matter within this larger universe of of football and high school politics. And like she is giving such a wonderful performance that the gravity of that show got dragged her of people talk about that show is a show about a great show about marriage a lot, which it is. But I also think it’s a great show about about being a parent to your own child and then the other children in your life that you’ve been given some sort of role of moral instruction over. When she, like, becomes a guidance counselor, it should feel like the worst hacky TV thing. But she already filled that role. So you’re like, okay, yeah, sure. This is this is her job. Now they’re just formalizing it.

 

Louis Virtel I was pleased to see her play such a colder parent than on The White Lotus. The fight she gets in with Alexandra Daddario when she comes up to her and, like, just gives her no time. It made you realize Connie Britton is somebody who so casually seems like a real person on screen, but then you might assume incorrectly. Oh, she’s just giving you her own personality, but she really casually warps into whatever character she’s playing. There’s like, a real casual sense of breadth about her abilities.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah.

 

Emily St. James She once told my wife that she like my wife’s hair and, like, my wife has been living off that for over a decade now. So. Similarly to Tami Taylor and moms that I feel like people will, will will delete the podcast like from the internet entirely if we don’t mention them. Is Lorelai on Gilmore Girls? I don’t think she’s a great mom. I think she’s a good friend. I don’t think she’s a great mom, but she again, she’s playing a kind of bad mom that we’ve seen before. And, like, the show makes you kind of wish you had a bad mom, which is, I think, a big strength of it. But, yeah, you. She’s way too involved in everything except when she’s not way too involved in her daughter’s life. But it is. It is a really great portrayal of codependency in a way where it’s kind of comedic and light and you’re having a good time, but it is depicting a kind of parent child relationship that can be really toxic in a way that occasionally just throws you, throws a thing at you that’s like, oh, yeah, this is a bad relationship. And you’re like, I guess it is, but let’s keep having a nice time.

 

Louis Virtel Anybody who can murmur their way through like three pop culture references in a row is mother to me. So make no mistake, she’s up there.

 

Ira Madison III I think I last bad mom I have to bring up is Lucille Bluth on Arrested Development, who I feel like is a mother. That sort of wish fulfillment for how people would want to treat some of their annoying kids.

 

Emily St. James Perfect. Yeah. I don’t care if her job lives in the back of.

 

Ira Madison III The.

 

Emily St. James 24.

 

Louis Virtel So how much could a banana be? $10? I mean, just the the disdain for humanity dripping off her voice like, imagine if I knew that.

 

Emily St. James You know, the thing about the Bluths just all of them as a family is every time there’s a new, like, bad family in the at the center of our culture. People are like, are they to the bluths are based on. And you’re like, not, not really, but it’s they’re just so archetypal bad rich people who kind of can’t figure out how to love each other.

 

Ira Madison III Now, your novel is about motherhood. And just how do you feel that working on woodworking changed your views on motherhood?

 

Emily St. James I actually had a kit while I was working on the book, and the book is about this phenomenon in especially trans communities, but all queer communities where you come out and you’re like, I need somebody to show me what I’m doing, and you end up having a parental relationship with them. But sometimes, like, they’re much, much, much younger than you, which I always find, like, fascinating. Like I came out and started hanging out with women in their 20s and they were like telling me things. And I’m like, I’m 15 years older than you, but I’m looking up to you is like an aspirational figure. And so I wanted to sort of write about the ways that, like, motherhood can get twisted around in that dynamic. But at the same time, you know, one of my to point of view characters, Abigail does not have a relationship with her mom. And you have this, like, series of women in the book who are, like, auditioning to be her mom almost because they think she’s she’s so great. I think I think we talk a lot about chosen family and queer communities, and this is a book about the ways the chosen family can replicate some of those, a family of origin dynamics. But it is about like how motherhood is kind of constantly a choice. You’re constantly saying, this is, you know, I’m going to care about this person. I am going to make sure they’re okay when it’s when it’s your own biological or adoptive or whatever, like a person that you have been legally tasked with taking care of. There’s like an added layer of pressure. But I do feel like we all make these decisions to be parental towards someone in our lives, and they don’t always last. You know, it’s a it can be a fleeting relationship, but there are sometimes just people who need us as parents or who we need to parent us. And I think this, this book made me think more about all of the figures in my life that have been one of those sorts of people to me, including my own kid who needs me to feed them all the time, which I don’t know about. I don’t know why they can’t handle it themselves.

 

Louis Virtel To bring it full circle, would you say it was more pleasurable to write this way than in your old work as a recap or and I say that because whenever I read a recaptures work, it feels personal, like you’re getting a window into their life as they’re watching all of this TV, like it’s almost accidentally vulnerable. Talking about the TV you’re watching, the media you’re consuming. But writing in this way about a topic that’s obviously very personal to you, was it more harrowing?

 

Emily St. James It was a different kind of writing. I have sort of been thinking about this, and I feel like I had to teach myself to write criticism and journalism in a way I never did fiction. I backed my way into writing nonfiction from writing fiction. I came out to Los Angeles, where I live, to be a writer for television, and that didn’t happen the second I got to town. So I started I started a blog where I did some TV recaps, and that led to this career in and writing criticism and journalism. But like I worked at Vox for a while and when I got there, I had to like, teach myself how to be a journalist. Even though I’d gone to school. It was like this new, like sort of series of tasks. And when I sat down and started working on this book, even the messy early drafts, it just felt like I was I was speaking my first language, like I was just doing a thing that I knew how to do deep down. But yeah, it’s I put a lot of myself into those old recaps. I go back and read them and I’m like, what are you doing? Why are you revealing this much about yourself?

 

Ira Madison III And I read.

 

Emily St. James In like a review of a of a Big Bang Theory episode. Or, you know, so many people loved my community recaps at the A.V. club, but they’re just like an ongoing, like an ongoing memoir about my gender dysphoria. It’s just like I hear I’m sad all the time, and I don’t know why. And the novel or, you know, when I write for TV is so much more. It is more personal, but it’s also less because I can diffuse that into, like other people who are having these experiences or feelings or sometimes things I have not experienced but am able to sort of like have known people who have. So it felt to me like, yes, it was. It could be very emotionally wrenching, but also it felt like there was a little bit more of a remove than when I was sitting down and talking about my marriage struggles. In a recap of some forgotten sitcom. In a recap of Ben’s the six episode NBC sitcom that aired 2011 2012.

 

Ira Madison III I always have to think about revisiting our earlier writing, you know, and when we were all starting, you know, on the internet and stuff, you know, but, you know, I have to imagine, you know, revisiting your writing, you know, it’s it feels like, you know, like revisiting this person that you no longer sort of are, you know.

 

Emily St. James Yeah, I really I really got into writing about television because it was a way I could sort of perform masculinity. The guy who knows everything about a certain thing has all the trivia at hand, is a kind of guy that I could reasonably be while also, you know, kind of hiding my true self. So I but I was talking with a woman yesterday who I, who I did an interview with and I sort of said that and she was like, well, I feel like often women are compelled in their writing to list all their bona fides at the very start, especially when you’re writing on the internet. So even then, I was kind of like being my true self, even as I wasn’t living my my, my best life. I think that I have a I have kind of a fraught relationship with my life as a TV critic. I know how much that writing means to people, and I’m so thankful for it. But it is like it is a time when I was like, really in pain and like, really like hiding pieces of myself. But, you know, I love that people love that writing, and I hope it gets them to check out the book and the other things I’ve done.

 

Louis Virtel I only thank you so much for being here. And also what a crackerjack discussion about TV moms. You say, like the trivia person is somebody you tapped into once upon a time, but you really have this information on lock.

 

Emily St. James Listen, I have a weird memory for everything that’s ever happened to me.

 

Louis Virtel So gifted a curse, to be honest. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Right.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, yeah.

 

Emily St. James Thank you so much. This was wonderful. I enjoyed talking with you guys about this.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Woodworking by Emily Saint James is out March 4th. Wherever you get your books. When we’re back. Keep it. And we are back with our favorite segment of the episode. It’s. Keep it. Louis. What’s got your feathers ruffled?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure. I like a kerfuffle, if you will. I keep it this week. As to The Hollywood Reporter’s cover, Blake versus Baldoni, which is okay, I understand this is like a big scandal everybody’s talking about, and it never ends. I personally kind of stopped consuming quote unquote, news about this because it felt like I was just getting fed propaganda from his team or misinformation from people speculating about what’s actually happening. But anyway, on this particular cover, it is, I guess, styled as a sort of David and Goliath battle where Blake has a slingshot and she’s shooting something at Justin Baldoni. Now that would be annoying enough. She’s barely touching whatever. She has slingshots and he is wearing two different shoes. So this is, I guess, just an eye cover that they slapped on the cover of Hollywood Reporter. Does it get broker? I officially if if this is I audition on American idol. Baby, you need three more years before you can audition. This is so ugly. For one thing, she’s holding a book for some reason. She’s like, there’s, like, a bunch of flowers coming up over her. They didn’t edit this at all. This is a extremely mysterious and tacky picture. It’s sort of a sexist sentiment type thing that they’re that they’re equal parts on and some sort of duel. I just don’t know what to make of this. I find it unbelievably depressing.

 

Ira Madison III It took me a minute to realize the book was. It ends with us.

 

Louis Virtel Oh. Oh, I see, I see. Yeah, but is she. Is she flinging like a cell phone? What’s an what’s in the slingshot?

 

Ira Madison III Child asked I. Okay.

 

Louis Virtel Hey, Siri, what’s in that picture?

 

Ira Madison III I have something to say about this Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively shit that is so unnerving to me. So many people I realize online are getting their information about the legalities of this case, and even some gays that I’ve chatted with in New York City. I mean, white people, of course, but people are getting their information on this case from Candace Owens. No way. Did you know this?

 

Louis Virtel Well, first of all, I’m always shocked and startled to realize she is as popular as she is. She remains like in the top ten podcast in America or something.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, listen, she has basically jumped on to the Lively and Baldoni train and is giving people, you know, talking about the court cases, talking about like the intricacies, etc.. Right. And so many people in the comments are loving it. And so every time I see something elsewhere, it’s like I’m getting all my information on this from Candace, etc. and it is so weirdly sinister how she has managed to shift her persona from, you know, girl who was boot up with Kanye West at one time, and with all the other rogues gallery who are now, you know, working in the Trump administration or, you know, performing ventriloquist dummy acts at CPAC, she’s shifted now to the Hollywood gossip thing. Right? And people are jumping into that. And then she has a new post on Instagram talking about her new book that, you know, has gone through so many publishers, and she’s finally found the time to release it. Because now we’re finally talking about toxic feminism. Thanks to Blake Lively and her toxic feminism. And the book it’s called Make Him a Sandwich. It’s about how you should be, I don’t know. Happy to make your man a sandwich. Like bitch. I’m sure he’s got DoorDash. Who is making sandwiches, by the way?

 

Louis Virtel Who’s concerned about the making of a sandwich these days? Yeah, yeah. You can just come and pick it up there everywhere.

 

Ira Madison III Anyway, this has basically, I guess, allowed her to re shift into a, like a new Ann Colter or something or what Megan Kelly like the space that she used to occupy before she just became, you know, woman who screams at cloud.

 

Louis Virtel I will say there is a space left open. I mean, there used to be Ann Colter and there used to be Megan Kelly. And though every once in a while I’ll see her quote, tweet somebody, and then people get a little mad about that. They kind of aren’t around. I never expected them to sort of recede the way that they did.

 

Ira Madison III Every time Meghan Kelly comments on a pop culture thing now, too, it’s giving very it’s giving very much desperate, you know, is giving out thirsting for air. We’re ventilation, you know, it’s it’s just like you’re at home. You left Fox News for, you know, you can go and watch the documentary bombshell if you want to learn about the wigs that she was forced to wear at.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, but baffling movie. Yes. No. But also, at the end of the day, you know that Meghan Kelly is Doctor Blight from Captain Planet and nothing else has to be said.

 

Ira Madison III Well, someone needs to take the pollution down to zero, baby. Okay?

 

Louis Virtel What an awesome theme. What else am I, right? What is your. Keep it this way.

 

Ira Madison III My keep it go. So people on my social media feed who feel the need to keep reposting this. A photo of Donald Trump sucking Elon Musk toes.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. Which was apparently somebody hacked into some sort of system in Washington. And then they played this footage of him sucking Elon Musk’s toes for everybody, which was quite amusing.

 

Ira Madison III Now that’s funny, at least because you’re at least, you know, taking the fight to him. I just want to ask, who is this for? It’s because it’s not particularly funny. To be honest, it’s just stupid and it’s AI and you’re sharing it, presumably for your followers to see. Maybe this is just in the thing that social media gives people, where it makes everyone feel like there’s a celebrity and everyone is watching their feed. But it’s your your followers, I presume, aren’t fans of Elon Musk. If they’re your friends and like, they already hate Trump. So it’s what I keep seeing this photo. I’m just asking, does Elon follow you? Does Trump or anybody from his family follow you? Like who is supposed to fucking see this and like, get the rile out of it that it was intended for. Instead, it’s I just have to keep seeing it, and I don’t want to see it. It’s gross.

 

Louis Virtel It’s also just it’s the same like calling him, like Cheeto Mussolini or something. Like, it’s in that vein of, like, things you’ve heard 10,000 times. And also not that I’m too concerned about this, but like, the joke here is like other gay for each other. Like it’s just like we’ve done that a million times too, you know? So it’s like which, which speaks to the fact that you don’t actually think just the, the general debauchery they’re incurring is embarrassing enough. Like, what’s embarrassing is if he he was literally sucking on his toes anyway.

 

Ira Madison III And let me tell you something. Ain’t nothing wrong with sucking the towel.

 

Louis Virtel Honey. Have you seen the art on the Madonna Erotica album? I was youngish, I was like 8 or 9 years old looking at that, and I was like, she’s onto something.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, honestly, I feel weirdly like, culturally, at least, you know, when gay porn, the foot thing has the foot thing. It’s like come into just being like a mainstream thing now.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah. No, you’re right. You can just kind of expect it.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Like it’s part of the foreplay now.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Just like you can expect somebody named, like Maddox or something.

 

Ira Madison III That’s someone’s actual name.

 

Louis Virtel I’m. I’m sure somewhere. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III So, anyway, you know, I’m fine with the piggy’s going to market.

 

Louis Virtel I know, going home. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III I hope your house is brick.

 

Louis Virtel So you’re also the big bad wolf in this scenario, okay. ASAP. Get me out of here.

 

Ira Madison III That’s why she was sick. She was going to grandmother’s house. She saw those feet. She was like.

 

Louis Virtel She was, like, tantalizing hahahahahahahaha.

 

Ira Madison III All right. Well, that’s our show this week. Thank you to Melanie Lynskey for joining us. Thank you to Emily St. James as well. And we will see you next week with our annual Oscars episode. It’s everyone’s favorite glitz glamor. It’ll be all there. Forever. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review or leaving comments on the YouTube page.

 

Louis Virtel Keep it as a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Bill McGrath. Our associate producer is Kennedy Hill and our executive producers are Ira Madison, the Third, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James. Our digital team is Meagan Patsel, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gaieski.

 

Ira Madison III This episode was recorded and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt DeGroot, David Toles, Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landes for production support. Every week. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. And as always, Keep It is filmed in front of a live studio audience.

 

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