The Other Side Has to Cheat | Crooked Media
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April 30, 2024
Pod Save The People
The Other Side Has to Cheat

In This Episode

Student organizers unite in support of Palestine, Alameda County discriminates against Black and Jewish jurors, DeSantis strips healthcare coverage from thousands of children,  and President Biden signs law to ban TikTok.


As student protesters get arrested, they risk being banned from campus too

Monroe County DA Sandra Doorley refuses to pull over for traffic stop because she “didn’t feel like” it. 
New York DA Sandra Doorley apologizes after body cam captures tense exchange with officer

Alameda County prosecutors allegedly excluded Black people and Jews from death penalty juries

Florida ‘callously’ strips healthcare from thousands of children despite new law

President Biden signs law to ban TikTok nationwide unless it is sold







DeRay Mckesson, narrating: [music break] Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode it’s me, Kaya, and Myles talking about the news that you don’t know with regard to race, justice and equity. We talk about everything from the student protests to the TikTok ban to some stuff with the police and judiciary. Here we go. [music break]




Kaya Henderson: Welcome to another episode of Pod Save the People family. We’re so happy to be back with you. I’m Kaya Henderson. You can find me on Twitter at @HendersonKaya.


Myles E. Johnoson: I’m Myles E. Johnson. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok for now at @pharaohrapture. 


DeRay Mckesson: This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.


Kaya Henderson: Well, family. Um. A lot has been going on this week. We have, I think the most interesting and important thing happening is the protests on college campuses across the country, of course, kicked off by Columbia University, but now continuing at universities all over the country. And uh wanted to get your take on what’s happening right now. Myles E. Johnson, you look like you have some significant thoughts on this topic. So kick us off with the conversation. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Ooh the pressure I don’t know if [laughter] I don’t know how significant they are, but they are my thoughts. I’m really proud since I’ve seen a lot of political movements, specifically the ones that get media coverage to happen. I think that I’ve seen so many um young people and not so young people now get kind of absorbed into the media circus of it all. And I’m really appreciative of the focus of this. I’m really appreciative of um the fact that you get young people who care about um global humanity. I think so often, um specifically in America, um we kind of only care about what’s happening in our front door. Or that’s the stereotype is that we only get that we only care about um, what happens in our front door. And this [?] does remind me of Vietnam. This does remind me of, um just moments where young American folks and just American folks in general have cared about something that is not just necessarily um happening at on, on their doorstep. And that gives me a lot of hope and excitement. I hope other people take these divestments seriously, too. I think when it comes to like, the Starbucks stuff, I think we started seeing that last year when it came to Starbucks and other corporations, um like McDonald’s, that people were openly divesting from. I think um, you know, part of organizing, if you’re not going to be on the front lines, is also aligning with what those organizers are asking for, too. So I hope a lot of people take seriously these things. And um Marc Lamont Hill posting that he um, gave back his his endowment and didn’t show up to a um, to, to a speech in order to show solidarity. I think those type of moves are just as important as the people who are on the front lines in times like this. Um. To show them that we ain’t we ain’t playing with them. We ain’t playing. We we are willing to put a bag down to put our fist up. 


DeRay Mckesson: I think I’m it I it’s so fascinating to me that, you know, in a learning community of all places is where you’d think this would be, uh a moment where the university figures out how to work with students and help students process. And we figure out the, you know, negotiation, knowing that sometimes we won’t always agree, but the tension is a part of the work. Like that is what you’d expect in a learning community. And instead they just call the police and you’re like, well, that’s–


Myles E. Johnoson: Right. 


DeRay Mckesson: –sort of wild. I think it also is a reminder at how easily the police become mobilized. I, I am fascinated by the idea that because we disagree, it is a crime. That is essentially what the universities have said. Like, because I don’t like that you don’t like what I did, I’m calling the police on you. And shame on all of the cities that allowed it to happen. Shame on the mayor of Boston, the mayor of New York City, the mayor of LA who let the police go on to those campuses. Because just because you you know, we at Black communities know this all the time. Just because you call the police don’t mean they coming. And in this case, not only did the police come, but they came with rifles in groups of 100. Do I mean, Saint [?] Saint in Saint Louis, Wash U the way those officers grab those kids with the city Council president on campus with another council member on campus was just stunning. And this morning, I don’t know if you saw it, but the president of Columbia released a statement saying that negotiations have broken down. She also said that the school will not divest from Israel and said, quote, “the encampment has created an unwelcoming environment for many of our Jewish students and faculty.” And what I find so wild about all of this is the chants that are like, go back to Gaza and all that. Nobody like those are nobody’s talking about that. It seems to be only a subset of students who people seem to care about in this moment, which is really well. And it’s not lost on me that all of this is about a war in another country that like, y’all, are willing to lock up all of your students because you are protecting an investment in decimating another country. I mean, that is just stunning to me. So, you know, many of these college leaders have failed, in my view, and I hope that there’s a long repercussion for their careers. Um. And I even think, you know, this is when I miss being a street organizer in this way. I want the kids at Columbia to do, like, a no talk protest to the president. Like any room she enters, they leave. Anytime she talks, they turn their back. Any time she greets somebody, people just literally refuse to engage her as their leader because she just cannot lead. 


Kaya Henderson: That’s powerful. I, you know, I’m watching this and like you, Myles, I thought a lot about the Vietnam War protests and just how students are always sort of on the cutting edge of big social change and most large social movements that we’ve seen around the world, students are the bellwether. And I think that and so I’m excited that students are mobilizing. I’m excited that this group of students are mobilizing in this particular time. I think these are young people who these are kids who have, you know, weathered the pandemic, who have had, you know, their they have not had a regular sort of childhood and upbringing. And yet and still they find purpose in community injustice. Right. And so I’m always heartened by young people. They are my hope. Um. And, and I feel, you know, I feel concerned for Jewish young people who don’t feel safe on their campuses. Um. And like you, DeRay, I actually think that the, the use of force, the use of police force is absolutely, like, out of bounds. Um. I, I, you know, I’m actually excited by the organizing that the young people are doing, like, they are using social media. They’re getting on zoom calls like they are strategic and thoughtful. And it just I don’t know, I think that um, in a time of deep polarization, it shows that um we can still come together around causes that are really important to us. And so I’m just watching. Right? I don’t have much of an opinion about it. I’m watching, um because I think that this is the opening of a much larger conversation. This isn’t just about Israel and and and Palestine. This is also about a failed um university system. This is about a failed social system that doesn’t listen to its constituents and isn’t doing it isn’t doing the will of the people, the bidding of the people. Um. And so I’m excited. I think that this is especially leading up to this election, um I think people are going to be forced to ask hard questions. I think our very conception of leadership as you noted, DeRay is is completely challenged right now, and I’m interested in what new things brings forth from this. 


Myles E. Johnoson: I have a little question. 


Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 


Myles E. Johnoson: I haven’t been watching everything 24 seven. So I um this is a this is a genuine question. Has there been any type of um public like publicity around or any reporting on, like, like the young Jewish students, like being harmed in any type of way? Like, is that like a is that a thing? 


DeRay Mckesson: You know, the one that went, did you see the one that went viral that was like, somebody was like, they got hit in the head with a um, with the flag? Myles did you [?]–


Myles E. Johnoson: Mm mmm. I didn’t see it. No, that’s no. 


DeRay Mckesson: There was this, like, viral attack like that um, one of the Jewish protesters got attacked. And then when you watch the video, literally, it’s like a kid walking down the path or whatever with a flag. The kid, like, turns around, like the kids, like just walking and the flag, like, mistakenly, just like, taps the person, like, grazes him. But like, it’s because the person’s like, turning. If you didn’t see that video, thank God somebody caught it on video. If you didn’t see the video, you would think that somebody stabbed this person in the eye and it’s like, y’all, come on. Like, this is just not in good faith. In some of the memes. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Yeah. 


DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know if you saw one of the memes that has been going around. Posted by like reposted by influential members of the tech community is like, you know, it’s something like we thought Hamas was only overseas, but it’s now on university campuses. And it’s like, that is just gross. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Yeah. 


Kaya Henderson: There were Jewish students at Cooper Union who were locked in the school’s library, um as pro-Palestinian demonstrators pounded on doors and shouted slogans. There are there are instances, I think um, we haven’t, I don’t know, I haven’t personally seen a ton of coverage. Um. But it seems that there are issues, um that there are documented cases of, of things happening to Jewish students. 


Myles E. Johnoson: I do want all students to be safe, all people to be like all people to be safe. And I think that is a part of the good side of American culture is the idea that we can all protest and get things done and also um, respect other people’s beliefs and identities. Also, it is very weary, which is one of the reasons why I’ve been stepping back from social media, um specifically during times like this. Because I do know that this is a time that stories get manipulated, things that, you know, and this is not just um, this, um Auntie Kaya as far as, like something happening in October getting resurfaced, like that’s happened so often, even in celebrity–


Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 


Myles E. Johnoson: –culture, somebody– 


Kaya Henderson: Yeah that’s fair. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Somebody will go through something and you’ll and you’ll be like, okay, oh, they just did this. And you’re like, oh, you did all this, this one week, you’re like, oh no, that’s what they’ve been reported to do in the last ten years. And we’re just talking about it all in one day. Um. So I do also want people who are, who are still very engaged in social media to be super critical during these times because not everything that you’re seeing is just to inform you. A lot of things are you’re being seen to shape you and to seduce you into certain ways of thinking. And there does seem to be an investment in being anti-Palestinian and anti ceasefire right now. And I think that like little stories of manipulations can really assist in people um creating narratives, specifically people who um, who aren’t um I hate using media literate because it sounds insulting to say sometimes media illiterate, but some people are not as media savvy. And knowing how social media works, you know? Um. 


Kaya Henderson: Yeah, that–


Myles E. Johnoson: –that’s that’s all. That’s the only two cents I want to give.


Kaya Henderson: I think that’s right. And I also think from an empathy perspective that it probably is not particularly [?] I could understand why if you are a Jewish student who does not agree with the pro-Palestinian stance, because I don’t want to also paint the picture that all Jewish students are opposed to, because that is not the case. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Absolutely. Absolutely.


Kaya Henderson: But if you are a Jewish student who is opposed to the pro-Palestinian stance, I could understand why this would be a rough time for you on campus and you might not want to come back. So um, I think both of those things are true, but I think your point is well said. 


DeRay Mckesson, narrating: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 




Kaya Henderson: In other news this week, Amanda Seales. Y’all um I am I really I found out this week that Amanda Seales is my birthday twin. Oh my soul, we are born on the same day, July 1st. And oh cousin Amanda. Um. She was on Club Shay Shay and did a whole almost three hour interview, um where I think she was seeking to get her side of the story out in this ongoing conversation about, you know, where she sits in Black culture and I um, I mean, I I’ll just say, I I am, I’m I’m not I’m not a fan. I’m not a fan. I’ve been trying I really have been trying. I was particularly um, unconvinced by her explanation of her behavior um through her recent autism spectrum diagnosis. I did not think that that was the appropriate explanation for how she has behaved. Um. I felt like she was super combative in the Club Shay Shay interview and literally was like, was accusing, like, Shannon Sharpe. And I’m not a Shannon Sharpe fan by any means, but I felt like he was trying to say to her, some of this stuff is not racism. Maybe like as a child, you know, challenging an adult, which was a situation that she brought up. Maybe that was the problem. And she was like, you weren’t there. You are you’re discounting my lived experience. You’re undermining me. And I just felt like, I don’t even know y’all. I can’t I’m not a fan. I don’t, I’m done. I can’t with it. I just cannot, I felt I and, you know, and here’s what I, create what I can hold space for. Amanda Seales is reaching people with a particular message that is really important. She just ain’t my cup of tea. Sorry. I’m done. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Yeah, I think we probably sit on the exact opposite [?]. [laugh]


Kaya Henderson: That’s that’s fine. I’m not surprised by that.


Myles E. Johnoson: Oh. I’m not trying to. I was like, I’m like. I’m like. I’m like, Auntie Kaya, let’s hold hands. [laughter] Um. So personally, I have an affection for Amanda Seales um very early in my, like, hip hop Black pop culture exploration. And back in middle school, she had um, she had things she was doing with um, this uh, this, this company called Karma Loop. And I got into her during that, like, era. And then she had she was going by Amanda Diva at the time she was doing poetry and stuff like that. So I have my own, like, personal affection for her, of course, too. But then also, what was interesting too, seeing her and Shannon Sharpe speak to each other was that, oh, I’m actually seeing actively a um, a generational thing happen and and and it’s weird because she’s not the youngest you know chick, you know. So but it was interesting to see that I think that she as she’s getting older, she’s adopted more expansive ways of thinking about gender. She’s talked about those things. She’s obviously adopted some more radical politics or developed those radical politics rather. And then even when it comes to an autism diagnosis, like that’s something that happened to me like three or four years ago, is I got my autism diagnosis. Um. And, and that to me feels like a, like a generational marker as well. Whereas like, my mom was like, if I’m not doing ABC abelist things or if I don’t have an intellectual disability or something that’s not making me be able to retain information, then then it’s made up. So I think that there was a way that she was talking and being challenged, that I felt like she was really standing up for a like a generational divide in the Black community. And then Shannon Sharpe was saying, oh, no, like, this teacher could just be um, you were challenging authority or are you sure the kids were racist? Maybe they’re just repeating what they were saying or are you sure you have autism or whatever? Because, you know, don’t just be labeling yourself stuff and stuff like that. It was kind of these things that sure Shannon Sharpe was saying it, but I really think that he was being a mouthpiece for a lot, a lot of people’s generational beliefs as what I think Amanda Seales was which is why I also I think that this conversation is striking such a chord, I think doesn’t really I don’t really think it has a lot to do with the personalities all the time that it that it’s happening. But what those personalities are representing in the conflict and what the conflict is representing, um but I don’t know. I really love Amanda Seales, and I really do think that we are in times that have lots of color, we are in times that are sometimes beautiful, oftentimes ugly. And I think that if we could only take sweet honey pretty voices during these times, we are restricting how far we can go and what we can think. And I think that I like that she’s in these spaces, not occupying this hyper respectable, hyper professional um space that a Black woman usually has to be in in order to be in the news and culture space. She speaks how she speaks. She she talks like MC Lyte in ’91, she curses. [laughing] She–


Kaya Henderson: I sure don’t have no problem with MC Lyte in ’91 or cursing–


Myles E. Johnoson: I’m not saying–


Kaya Henderson: –or any of that. Right. 


Myles E. Johnoson: But I, I think there’s a combative–


DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. Myles, I think that. I think this is, I think that you are giving her–


Kaya Henderson: A lot. 


DeRay Mckesson: A lot more than I think. I think that that is the, I don’t, I can’t even call that reading generous. I think I’m happy that you started with I like Amanda Seales. Because that is what I think. [laughter] I think that and she had a great interview on this podcast, and I’m only commenting because I do think a part of living your life in public means that when you put it in like, we have public conversations about people who do things in public, like I think that is, you know, I think it was fascinating. I I’ll just talk about the autism thing, uh because I thought that was a fascinating exchange because later she comes out and says she was not medically diagnosed with autism. She diagnosed herself. And that she couldn’t afford a diagnosis and everybody’s like, well, Amanda, you’re not you know, you have more resources than most. It doesn’t cost as much as da da da. And then she, you know, she’s posted another video where she’s like, you know, people are being critical of me da da and it’s like well no, Amanda, I think the way you said it on the interview made it seem like you were medically, that was a fair read [?]–


Kaya Henderson: That’s absolutely. 


DeRay Mckesson: People were not reading into that. And then for you to come around and be like, oh no, that was deflection. Nobody has the right to. And it’s like, you know, I think that what what is the through line for Amanda is, I don’t know one moment where she’s been challenged in public, where she takes actual accountability, where she says, you know what, I did that I sort of messed that up, could have done this a little better and here’s, the autism thing is fa–, it’s like instead of being like, you know, maybe I misspoke and I could have been clear. She’s like, doubling down on y’all just didn’t get it. And it’s like mm no I think I think people got it. And I and I do think there’s I do think that she finds a sense of power in being the person that people don’t like. I think that is true. And I and that’s fine. Like that. That is like a cool space if you want to own it, but I don’t. I–


Kaya Henderson: But then you can’t whine about it when people don’t like you. That’s the thing. My thing is, Myles, I’m down for the direct. I’m down for the ugly. I’m down for the challenging. I’m whatever. Right? Like I’m good for that all. We need those voices in those spaces. But then you can’t be like, how come nobody likes me? You can’t tell me my house is dirty and then be like, why don’t you invite me to dinner at your house? Like and for me, everything is the accountability piece DeRay. Everything is somebody else’s problem. Sis, you done got fired from every–


DeRay Mckesson: And somebody else’s fault. 


Kaya Henderson: Yes. You done got fired from every– 


DeRay Mckesson: It’s all somebody else’s fault. 


Kaya Henderson: –thing in the world. But it’s all like the whole entire world is conspiring against you? Come on, I just can’t. And if that’s generational, I’m down with it. I’m Gen X, and that’s what it is. But at some point, personal has personal responsibility has got to be part of the conversation. 


Myles E. Johnoson: Yeah I don’t. Yeah, I I hear y’all. I really do. I also think that I think the water that she’s swimming in is, like, toxic and poisonous. So I think it’s hard for me to say. I mean, it’s just this weird situation for me talking about her because, put my affection for her aside. Also, I just think that media and the landscape of media has gotten like shallower. So like any comparisons I can draw just are not just just feel silly because I don’t want to compare her to like civil rights heroes or whatever. But I think there’s this like or any or like anything like that. But I’m like, I just don’t know when it became hard to fathom that a Black person with radical and or certain types of leanings would have a hard time in corporate America. I was not a child star. So you put my little Black tail in Nickelodeon and then HBO and these all these other things, I’m like, yeah, I will be able to tell you things that I have [?] wrong, even in my career, in my career trajectory that I have had. If you took me to when you take me from Afropunk to the Fader, if you take me to all these different places I’ve had, I have horror stories about all these different things, and I don’t think that those are just because I was, um a fault projecting person. I think, oh no, the water I was swimming in was poisonous, and I was not able to be assimilated or neutered correctly. So I didn’t have a positive time, and it just doesn’t seem out of it doesn’t seem infathomable that somebody else would have a mirroring time. Specifically somebody who’s of who might be a part of a younger generation or the beginning of a younger generation, that’s like, oh, I do not want to do that. Actually, I’m not, I don’t I did not swallow the Huxtable pill like that. And I don’t want to I don’t want to give up that part of my soul or my mind or my politic in order to have a house or to go further. So I think that that’s a thing too, to me. Like I just to me it just seems I’m like, oh, I could see that, I could, I could. 


DeRay Mckesson: The only thing I’d say, though, Myles, is that she does want it. That’s the thing though, that I think is like fascinating. She wants to be interviewed by Essence. She wants to be at the party. She wants she is not rejecting those things. And the only reason we know about it is because she keeps talking about it. It’s not like nobody’s like sleuthing. So I think your that reading you just gave, I would totally agree if she was like, I don’t, that’s not who I am, that’s not what I want. And people keep putting that on me. I’m trying to do this sort of work. But she’s like, no, no, no, these people won’t invite me to the party. Essence won’t interview me. They won’t let me da da da. And it’s like why– 


Myles E. Johnoson: But wasn’t she invited to the party? That I think that was the thing. I mean, it’s just asking a question. Like she she said that she was invited by three different people to that party. She said that she did do something with Essence. She said she did host the BET awards. So these aren’t things that she’s trying to get invited to. These are things that she was invited to, was folded into. 


DeRay Mckesson: No I–


Myles E. Johnoson: And then disposed of. 


DeRay Mckesson: I’ll just talk about Essence specifically, but it wasn’t like she was. We don’t know why the inter– I bet you’ve been interviewed for a million things that got canceled last minute. Right. Like we’re and it, it would be an unfair reading, reading to be like, every time somebody canceled on you is because they hated you or that’s just not true.


Myles E. Johnoson: But she but she literally said that the reason why the the editor in chief or excuse me that the CEO canceled. She said that the person her assistant told her the reason why it was canceled was because they were afraid of it being live streamed, and they didn’t want to do a gotcha interview with Amanda, and that’s why she canceled. So she told us, she said why she was everything was canceled. I mean, and she could be lying. I’m not saying that she’s not lying. She could be totally lying and she could be full of shit. But I’m saying to me, I’m like, oh, that sounds about right. I’ve been in situations where people have been like, I don’t want to talk about this left thing that you gotta talk about so either it needs to be recorded, not going to prove it, or it’s not happening. 


DeRay Mckesson: I’m just saying there are a million things that I don’t participate in because I don’t want to, even thoughI’m invited. Just because I like don’t want to be there anymore. I’m like, not my cup of tea. Interesting. Like I’ve been to the White House Correspondents Dinner. I got invited to parties this year, around the White House Correspondents Dinner. I can’t in good faith go to that. Why the kids are in the middle of the street? That doesn’t make sense to me. Do you know what I mean? So I think I I think my distance with her is that she continues to be frustrated by not being invited into these traditional Hollywood spaces and da da da, while also sort of–


Myles E. Johnoson: Longing for them. 


DeRay Mckesson: –saying they don’t matter. And it’s like, yeah. And it’s like, well one that can’t. And now I’m like, I get why you aren’t, you know, this is if this is how it happens. I, I get why. 


DeRay Mckesson, narrating: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming. 


[AD BREAK] [music break]


Myles E. Johnoson: So my news is um definitely TikTok. [laugh] Um. I’m really fascinated by it. So I kind of feel like TikTok is one of those things. Um. Or I should say, social media is one of those things where I never expected to feel like this, but I can I kind of feel like, where were you when something happened? So this so I say all this to say is this is the first time that I’m experiencing something that feels nostalgic happening to social media. This reminds me of Vine and I’m like, oh, I’ve seen this show before. Like I’ve seen this, this political and cultural moment happen before, and now I’m feeling nostalgic of the whole other generations experiencing it. I’m like, oh yeah, corporations and or the government will take your, your favorite platform and you will have to start from scratch. Um. I think why, A,  I wanted to bring this as news, because I wanted to see what everybody was thinking about it, because I do think that TikTok is something that like, it’s affecting a specific demographic of people, um and the creators, in um and creators in America. But I do also think that if Biden is looking to like and maybe he’s not. Maybe that’s the thing too. But like, maybe like if Biden’s looking to, like, motivate people who are young to get to the polls, taking away one of the more popular social media platforms um is just not the way to do it. And I guess also, I just wanted to know, like, what are y’alls thoughts on where this is heading? Like do you think it’s going to be sold? Is that like the is that the kind of the idea that within this like time allotted for them to um sell and do business, it’s going to happen? Or do you think this is going to vanish like Vine, or do you think that’s like not a option? Um. Again, I think that it’s it’s going to be interesting between not trying to equate these things, but when it comes to um, what’s happening in um Palestine in the, in these protests and then what’s happening with TikTok, it just feels like there’s a lot of stuff happening to, like, really make young people not really motivated for Biden. In my imagination, the opposite would be the goal right now, because we’re in an election year and it feels like and it feels like maybe in their head they were like, well, them young kids is not gonna get in with us. So let’s just go go over here because this is where we have more um stakes and we have more power. So just forget it. So I’m like, is that what’s happening? Because this couldn’t be saved until, I mean, politics is dirty, right? This couldn’t be saved till 2025?


Kaya Henderson: Next year. After the election.


Myles E. Johnoson: I’m like, you could have got in like I’m like, what was the rush? But also, maybe you’re trying to galvanize another group of people to think that you’re hard on, on, on, on um, on on foreign politics or something like that. Maybe that was the goal, I don’t know. So, yeah, this is the news that I’m bringing more so for my selfish reasons, to get some clarity that is not, around this, that from people who are smarter in the area of electoral politics than I am, because I’m a little confused by this move. 


Kaya Henderson: Um. Yeah, I, I, I find this to be so interesting because are we really, you know, Myles to your the narrative that people want us to believe, like, are we really afraid of the Chinese government having information about all of the people dancing and planting and recipe-ing and whatever on TikTok? Um. Or are we trying or is this another sort of move in the cultural wars to suppress information to, you know, I mean, we got book bans. We got, you know, police on protesters like the squelching of the free flow of information I think is incredibly dangerous. It’s it’s really dangerous. And I mean, I think, you know, for all intents and purposes, you know, TikTok won’t go away before the election. Heck. Mr. Biden has a TikTok account for the [?] Biden campaign has a TikTok account. Right? Um. Because he’s trying to appeal to young people. But I think the the longer move is, you know, controlling information. The thing about the internet is that it democratized the flow of information before a few people controlled all of the information that we got. And now, you know, we know about what’s happening not from official channels, but from on the ground reporting. I mean, DeRay is DeRay because he was able to bring the Ferguson protest not, DeRay is DeRay because he’s magnificent. But we know DeRay because because he was able to bring the Ferguson protests um to the people in a way that the regular media was not covering. And I think that this, this kind of suppression is really, really dangerous. I also think it’s just capitalistic and greedy. And I think what I think it’s not going to go away. Right? Somebody is making the next TikTok or replicating TikTok and they want it to be owned by I mean, look who the Republicans have pulled together. They’re like, we got a group, we’ll buy the TikTok. Right? Like and so I think that this is both, uh another, you know, shot in the culture wars. And I think it is greedy capitalists who are trying to rejigger the system. 


DeRay Mckesson: [?] I also think that if I was really trying to screw over the American government, I would get rid of TikTok two weeks before the election, just like literally just break the app and, like, force all these people into a tizzy, you know, because like, that is it’s such a wild decision to do. I also think that, you know, I do think a lot of politics focuses on voters. And I don’t know if the voting majority actually cares about TikTok. So I think there are like a lot of aunts and uncles who vote every year, who are like all they know TikTok as is another version of reels. And it’s not a, like they don’t sorta care. They’re not worried about the creator economy crashing. They certainly aren’t worried about this being the primary way that people get their news. Like they still watch MSNBC and CNN. So so I do think that if you’re playing to voters, I don’t know if this is a wild idea. Now, if you are trying to convert voters, I think this is a crazy idea. And if you’re trying not to piss off young people, I think you have completely–


Kaya Henderson: Totally. Totally.


DeRay Mckesson: –miscalculated. And I think that the and I think the Biden team doesn’t get that like, you know, the Trump people are getting their people in line, all the like Trump got those people lined up. They are ready for their contracts they gonna get from the government. They don’t like that man, but they don’t need to like him because they are trying to get something far greater than being liked by Donald Trump. And I worry that the left does not have the people lined up, and student loans are not going to be enough. 


Kaya Henderson: Can I share my news next? Because it also is from the like what what do we think is happening here? What is the point? Um. So my news comes out of Florida and uh it is about Governor DeSantis challenging this rule um around children’s um health the children’s health insurance program um CHIP, which in Florida is called Florida Kid Care. And basically what has happened is um over, since January 1st, the DeSantis administration have has kicked out more than 22,500 children from the Florida Kid Care program. This is a program that’s jointly subsidized between state and local government for US families that are just above, earn just above the Medicaid threshold. And there’s there’s a law that the federal government put in place to protect families. Families still have to pay premiums. And if you miss a premium previously the states could kick you off of the program. But in fact, the federal government created this thing called continuous eligible, the continuous eligibility clause, which basically says if you even make one payment in the course of a year, you can continue to be eligible. Well, Mr. DeSantis says that that flies in the face of his state law. And he appealed. He went to court to say this continuous eligibility clause is unfair, which is fine. That’s his legal right. But instead of waiting for the verdict, he’s just been kicking people off right now. And um, and so, you know, this year the monthly average of children being disenrolled is 1500 higher than the whole number of disenrollments in 2023. So long story short, this man is kicking poor people, poor children off of the insurance program that covers them because they miss a payment. And my question is like, to what end? What like what do we think? What is the point here? What what like what are what do we think that this is accomplishing? I really am I’m asking for this friend because I literally do not understand what you get from putting children off of, like taking children off of the insurance that covers them? Poor children. 


Myles E. Johnoson: I think one thing that this story reminds me of, and thank you for bringing it, is that, you know, America has our own, genocides that we’re doing against poor people, against um people who are of color. Black folks like that, to me, is what this is. And I think that how we do it is always different. And how we do it is often through through law or through legal means in order to um protect um the illusion of civility. But when we really crack it open and see what the goal is, is the goal is to disappear children and to to and to and to make sure children um, aren’t aren’t aren’t here specifically children who, you know, the state might have to be responsible for. The children that might um do things that are against the state. I think that that, to me, is the only way my brain can work when I see things like that, because there’s just no other reason why adults in power wouldn’t want children to be healthy and to have access to care. 


DeRay Mckesson: I think about a couple of things. One is even when I watch the campus encampments, I you know, I am in the minority here, but I do think that the far left has gotten it wrong in terms of what the impact is. Is that I think that people watch this and they’re like, crystal clear, this is crazy. People understand how violent the police are. And I actually think that’s not what happens. I think that people are looking at this and they’re like, wow, the police really screwed up this one thing. They are not looking at it like the system is flawed and the whole thing is corrupt, and that that is not people’s take away. So that’s like one. The second is I say that because I think that we have a long way to go to help people understand, like institutional racism. I think those words, we get it. But I don’t think I you know, I always say that aunts and uncles are a better reflection of where the majority is. And I think if any of you call your aunt and uncle and say, what is institutional racism, I think the answer you get will be far from what you think. And I say that because when I think about Florida, we understand this is institutional racism, and da da da uh which I don’t think is a political message, an organizing message we’ve won on on our side. I don’t think people see that yet. I think people sort of are like, this is the system. You know? It is what it is. Da da da da. But the last thing I’ll say is that the right more than anybody understands that the numbers are on our side, they get it. They have understood it for a long time. Which is why their play has been fix the voting, gerrymander the maps, so that the numbers won’t matter and stack the courts so when people go try and challenge it, we will win. Because they’re sort of like we might lose the elected thing, but we can make the map our map and then we can make it impossible to overturn it. Right? They get the numbers thing,  and I say that because the biggest fear is for people to get up and realize that they have power. And if you keep people trapped in this, like, I don’t know what I’m gonna eat in the next ten minutes, it’s just really hard for them to organize. And I say that as an organizer, it’s like hard to it’s hard to talk to people about the corruptness of the police when they are like, I’m trying to like, pay rent, like and not like not like I just need to go to work. But like, I might I might not be able to pay rent. And you here talking about this philosophical, da da, you know, like it’s hard when people don’t know where their next meal is coming from to talk to them about gerrymandering. It’s just a really hard thing to do and the right gets that. The last thing I’ll say too about all of this is that when I think about the campus, uh when I think about the the situation in Gaza, I last night, I was like, we are paying for that Kaya. It’s not the billionaires are not paying for that. They’re not paying taxes. You and me are paying for that. So the idea–


Kaya Henderson: Yes. 


DeRay Mckesson: –that we should have a say–


Kaya Henderson: No. 


DeRay Mckesson: –is actually really important. 


Kaya Henderson: That’s right. 


DeRay Mckesson: Because when we are paying for all, we are paying for Medicaid. We’re paying for Social Security like you and your cousins are. You are. The rich people–


Kaya Henderson: Yes. 


DeRay Mckesson: –who own Amazon aren’t paying any taxes. They they really are actually not paying for this. Can we talk about the district attorney? Uh. Doorley in uh New York State. In Myron county. So Doorley gets pulled over. 


Kaya Henderson: Monroe County. Monroe County.


DeRay Mckesson: –because she’s going 20 miles above the speed limit. That officer turned on his body camera and she literally, we’re going to play some of the clip. 


[clip of DA Doorley and police officers] Hi. I’ll talk to Jeff. Jeff. Okay. I wish so for a minute. Okay. I’m the supervisor here. And also. Okay. Sorry. I didn’t want to pull over. [?] It was just. I just didn’t. I figured, I’d just go to my driveway. Okay well, and I called Dennis, and I said, okay, that’s me that they’re trying to stop. Okay, so that’s the end of story. Okay. But you should know better, right? I was speeding. I always I don’t I know that. Okay. So why didn’t you just stop like you’re supposed to? Because I didn’t feel like stopping on Phillip’s road at 5:30. That’s that’s not your choice. You know that. Well, I made it my choice. Okay. Well. Now you now you made it a bigger deal than it needed to be. It’s a really bigger deal. And when people start calling it’s a much bigger deal. Well, you you caused that Sandra. Well, what do you want us to do? Not do our job because of you? No. It’s fine. I said write me a ticket. But I was just saying I was not the stuff that folks wrote at 5:30. Okay, well, you broke another law because of that, right? You should know better. [indistinct] That’s not a traffic ticket, that’s an arrestable offense. Sandra, you know this. [indistinct] Why would you not just pull over? You made it a bigger deal than it needed to be. And you knew why, you were getting stopped clearly. Clearly [laugh]. He could have stopped you, had a conversation with you and been done with it. But now you made it this whole big deal. Clearly. For no reason. Did you provide him your license and registration? Yes. Okay. 


DeRay Mckesson: She literally is like, I’m the D.A.. I don’t care. I wasn’t going to pull over. I wanted to pull over in my in my garage. What? 


Kaya Henderson: I didn’t feel like pulling over. And the man said, didn’t you see my lights and my sirens? And she said, I thought you were going somewhere else. I wasn’t paying attention because I was on the phone. He’s like, you’re not supposed to be on the phone. She’s like, yes, I absolutely can, handsfree. Do you know what I’m dealing with? I’m dealing with three murders. I’m dealing with whatever, whatever. I called Dennis and told him the people that they’re chasing is me. So so what lady like you are the D.A.. You are breaking the law. The police are doing their job, and you are like, miss me with this because this I I don’t care that I was going 20 miles over. 


DeRay Mckesson: She releases an apology video today on Monday, where she apologizes to the police officer for her tongue. For being rude. The governor, uh Governor Hochul, has recommended her, like, push her case over to there’s a prosecutor accountability task force that just got put together, a year or so ago, and this would be their most high profile case. Hopefully they, at least disbar her, remove her from office, the governor actually has the power to remove her. But it hasn’t happened in like a zillion years. Um. But there’s no way she can actually be the DA and this goes without saying that she is a Republican. Um. And she definitely thinks that she’s above the law and the brazenness in the video is just something to behold. But my actual news–


Kaya Henderson: Wild. 


DeRay Mckesson: Doorley was fascinating. 


Kaya Henderson: Totally wild. 


DeRay Mckesson: My actually news is about Alameda County. We know the public defender, chief public defender in Alameda County. He is a phenomenal guy, Brendon Woods. But in Alameda County, a federal judge ordered the district attorney to review all death penalty cases handled by, their office, because there is seeming proof that the prosecutors, for a period of time were working to exclude Black people and Jewish people from juries with the idea that if they were on the juries, they would not uh convict people or go for the death penalty. Uh. They found this all started because of a 1993 trial, where they found notes that show the prosecutors who handled the case identified Jewish people and Black people and specifically sought to take them from the office. And one undated note referred to a potential juror as short, a fat troll. Another, describing a Black woman, said, says race, no issue, but I don’t believe her. And um, this wasn’t just one or two people. This seemed to be a whole collection of prosecutors. The DA’s office, because of this court ruling, is reviewing 35 active death penalty cases and will potentially review matters dating all the way back to 1977. They are currently notifying the families of the victims of people whose death penalty cases are being reviewed, and at least three people convicted in Alameda County. Alameda County is essentially the Bay Area minus San Francisco, so it’s Oakland’s the biggest thing that you would know. And then at least three people convicted in Alameda county have already been resentenced due to the evidence that Black people and and Jewish people were removed from a jury. So I bring this up just because for a couple reasons. One is that, you know, the only way the other side wins is by cheating. I’ll maintain that till the end of time. That like, if if if we funded the public defenders the way that we fund everybody else. If–


Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 


DeRay Mckesson: If prosecutors could be disbarred for lying and doing things like Doorley this whole system, it’d be a different world. But they win because either the rules are stacked on their sides or they lie. Enter the police and this whole other thing. And this is another example that, like, y’all don’t even you’re not getting fair juries. You’re excluding people in ways you know are racist and unconstitutional. But the second thing, and Brendon has said this, the chief public defender, he’s been public defender for a decade. Is that if you think that this is only limited to death penalty cases in Alameda County, then you are fooling yourself. They’re they were doing this for a whole, we just don’t have the proof yet. But you got to believe this was happening–


Kaya Henderson: Absolutely. 


DeRay Mckesson: –for a whole lot of other cases. So I wanted to bring it here because it blew my mind. 


Kaya Henderson: That is my big takeaway for the week. DeRay. Right. Like the other side only wins by cheating. And this this, I mean, literally my first thought was only death penalty cases? But it is it’s shocking to see the clarity around like no Black women, no Black people, no Jewish people. Like it is shocking to see the like outright racism that like permeates our judicial system. Permeates. I mean, this is your exact point about my story. Institutional racism like and for all of the people who are like, there is no systemic racism, there is no institutional racism. Just listen to our podcast. All we do is lift up these examples of institutions, healthcare institutions, judicial institutions, educational institutions, institutions where racism is baked into how these systems work. And I just I don’t know how you can’t I don’t know how you can say that this doesn’t exist. Um. But it is, you know, it is the reason why some of us are deathly afraid to do anything wrong, because there’s no way you get a fair shake in the judicial system as a person of color. So this was I mean, it wasn’t shocking to me. Um. It is what I believe. And and what I will extend to um, to the DA’s quote is if you think it’s not, if you think it’s just happening in Alameda County, then you got something wrong, which you too, because this is happening all across the country. Um. So. Yikes. 


DeRay Mckesson, narrating: Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning into Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger and Myles E. Johnson. [music break]