Ira and Louis discuss Ira’s tenure on The Floor, the drama surrounding Snow White, chilling new series Adolescence, ticket prices for Othello on Broadway. Jeffery Self joins them to discuss the best portrayals of sex workers in film, his own history as a sex worker, and  his new memoir Self-Sabotage: And Other Ways I’ve Spent My Time. Nathan Lane joins to discuss his new series Mid-Century Modern, favorite Guys & Dolls memories, and why he also enjoys dastardly roles.

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Ira Madison III [AD].

 

Ira Madison III And we’re back with an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira, loser on the floor, Madison the third.

 

Louis Virtel Man, did I watch that, and I just screamed watching it go down. I am Louis Virtel, game show aficionado, so this hits really hard. As you know, Ira, who is one of the co-hosts on Keep It, one of the less popular ones, he appeared on the game show The Floor, hosted by Rob Lowe, where there’s 100 people on a grid, everybody has an expert topic, and his topic was real housewives, and he happened to be challenged by somebody else on The Floor who I know. Alex Navisi is a Jeopardy veteran and somebody who clearly knows everything about pop culture. That’s always been evident to me. And he went up against you in this picture recognition Real Housewives challenge and narrowly edged you out. And I’m just gonna say, Ira, he was probably the one person in that room who could have beaten you.

 

Ira Madison III Listen, there could be a hundred people in the room and there’s just one person who could beat me in Real Housewives. I want to say that this was episode six of the series and I feel like it was the match of the season if only because one, this is the only match in the history of the show to have had a, be teased by a commercial break. Like there was a whole twist about. basically you become friends with people on the floor because you’re all just huddled in this room and then you go out and you’re filming all day. We filmed about two episodes a day and then three episodes a day sometimes. So I’d had like, and then there’s a day, you know, a couple of days where you’re just in Ireland. We shot it in Dublin, by the way. Yeah. a couple of days before where you’re sort of just like hanging out in the city and maybe you run into some people and sort of befriend people who you took like a car with or whatever. I shared my car from the airport, by the way, with Brian O’Halloran, who’s also on the show this season. You might remember him from Clerks. Yes. And so I befriended Alex and I knew he was a Jeopardy person and I knew he knew a lot about pop culture, but he was really playing up. that he knew nothing about real housewives.

 

Louis Virtel Wow, he was like mind games from the start.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, he said he knew me, he knew you, he knew Keep It, and so I was like, okay, I’m friends with this person. And you know what? As a person who watches Survivor, as a person who loves a big brother, that was my first fucking mistake, okay? Never trust anybody. Never trust anybody. And what happened too is they don’t include it in the episode, because they cut a lot of stuff out, but there’s a moment. when he is going for the time boost. And one of my friends on the floor, Clint, who does like a dramatic fall to his knees when I lose, he told me, Alex told me he’s going to challenge you because he actually knows about Real Housewives. And I was like, excuse me? And so maybe like 30 minutes before, like a match or two before, while he’s still up there winning, I realized that. he is going after me. And so when I’m challenged and pulled up to compete, I’m doing my best to like not show that I’m flustered or angry. Yeah, right.

 

Louis Virtel And you realize you’ve not been had, but you’re up against a very formidable opponent. Especially, I mean- A sniper from the side. It must be said that you did really well on the challenge, but when one person earns a time boost, that means they get five extra seconds to answer during this round of questioning. That could be the difference between life and death. Namely in a situation where everybody is just rat attack going back and forth, identifying these pictures. Yeah, you only stumbled on somebody named Brandy’s last name or something.

 

Ira Madison III First of all, there was a very bad photo of Taylor Armstrong and I stumbled on- Some of the photos-

 

Louis Virtel Some of the photos on that show are like no mercy. Like they’re like, we don’t give a fuck. Getty, Getty image is like the worst of.

 

Ira Madison III The country category for women in country was abysmal, by the way. I was looking at people and being like, who the fuck is this supposed to be? But I’m grateful to Bravo fans online for being on my side for one. The housewives that they picked were like, you’re picking housewives from like a decade ago. Dallas hasn’t been on TV in like six fucking years, six, seven years, you know? Who the fuck remembers Brandi Redmond? Nobody is thinking about Dallas, okay? There was no modern people. There was like, where were the more, there’s Karen Huger, but like, where was more Potomac women, Salt Lake City, et cetera. It was giving very, I guess, you know, the show shoots in Dublin, and not to drag the producers, who I love, by the way. I loved my… on-site producer, Michael, he’s fantastic. And the makeup team, by the way, they did the traders. And they couldn’t really give me like tea, but they were like, oh my God, the trader season is so fun. And it was like, and now I know it was messy as hell. Right, yeah, quite. But it was really given like, is Housewives airing 10 years behind in Ireland or something? Because where are the current people? They’re just getting like the biggest loser over there? Yeah, right, who knows. It was a lot of fun doing that kind of show.

 

Louis Virtel Also, it’s like, once you’re on a game show, it’s like, it’s a really addictive feel. It’s like an embarrassment of riches here in LA. Like we have lots of opportunities where you can just pick up 15 grand, you know, on a Tuesday that you take off work. So I’m always kind of, it drives me crazy when more people don’t take advantage of that opportunity. Unfortunately, now.

 

Ira Madison III Now, I can’t make fun of Love It for being first out on Survivor anymore because I went out very quickly, although I did last more episodes.

 

Louis Virtel You were more, yeah, formidable, I would say. I mean, like ultimately, but you’re right. Now you’re even greater peers than you once were. But by the way, speaking of people, we cannot consider ourselves in the same peer group as who is on this show today.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, first of all, Jeffrey Self, our friend, is joining us for a segment to discuss sex workers in film, hot off of a Nora winning Best Picture at the Oscars and his new memoir, Self-Sabotage, which is essays about his life and also his brief foray into sex work in his early 20s in New York City.

 

Louis Virtel Well, first of all, I just want to say, he has a name that is so given to puns. It’s like, anytime I read a review of Liz Fair, I guarantee you, like, fair play when it comes to Liz’s new album. Like, every time, like, the journalist at Spin or wherever cannot resist.

 

Ira Madison III And we are also joined by the amazing icon, Nathan Lane, this week.

 

Louis Virtel Can I say something about this man, I mean, obviously he has a tremendous career and we could have talked about the birdcage alone for the entire interview. But he also has one of the best interviewee memories of anybody I’ve ever met. Look up any interview he’s ever done, you can just get lost in a tunnel, like going back on his incredible career. Jason Alexander, another person like that, unbelievable memory.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, the first time I ever saw Nathan Lane on stage was in The Producers and I was just like, I fell in love with that man. He’s so fantastic and I get to talk to him about guys and dolls. So my life has been made.

 

Louis Virtel He is one of these people who, if he didn’t exist, there’d be a hole in pop culture, because he has fit so perfectly into 100 classic plays, TV shows, movies, exactly where he belongs.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. And also this week, this movie called Snow White comes out on Friday and baby, the girls are fighting.

 

Louis Virtel The dwarves are uppity.

 

Ira Madison III This is one of the most dramatic movie situations since I guess Don’t worry, darling

 

Louis Virtel I was gonna say the same thing. We’ve had pretty low drama movie releases over the years. I mean, the ensuing fallout from It Ends With Us is one thing, but that took until after the movie came out for it to really bubble over. This is all preceding it, which is very shocking.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, so I can’t wait to get into the Snow White drama. And would you believe it? Maybe, just maybe, Karla Sofia Gascon is involved too.

 

Louis Virtel Your lips to God’s ears. I’ve been praying for a second act for Karla.

 

Ira Madison III Can I say, I kind of stan her now. I’m sorry. Did you see that quote that she made about Oscar season? She called it something about winter. It was very, Shakespeare had arrived. She said, others would not have survived this brutal winter that I am about to end. Ma’am. Iconic.

 

Louis Virtel Brutal winter. You were the one who tweeted. You tweeted and then people said, why did you tweet that? That means a brutal winter has occurred.

 

Ira Madison III Go to meteorology school. That is the new, now is the winter of our discontent. Sorry.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, precisely. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Alright, we will be right back with more Keep It.

 

Louis Virtel [AD]

 

Ira Madison III Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, which film is the messiest of them all? Disney’s upcoming Snow White remake starring Rachel Ziegler and Gal Gadot has been embroiled in controversy for, if you can believe it, years now. We’re talking pre-pandemic, baby. And since the film finally hits theaters on Friday, Louis and I are going to get into all of the drama that’s happened up until now. So, let’s bite into this apple, shall we?

 

Louis Virtel I can’t believe it’s been that long, but at the same time, I feel like we were at one point chastising Rachel Ziegler for not being grateful enough for the Snow White role. And I think about when that was, and it was years ago. So I suddenly am on board with this.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, so there are a lot of controversies in this thing. I guess the first thing we can start with is Rachel herself being cast as Snow White, because this was, I believe, the first iteration of conservatives complaining that Disney was going woke by casting a Latina actress as Snow White, Because, you know. White’s right there in the title.

 

Louis Virtel And precisely, and also Snow White was a very real white woman who, if you met her, loved being white. She’s like, I’m white, I hang out with the dwarves and that’s my essentials.

 

Ira Madison III Um, yeah, she was sort of, you know, she was proud of her casting as a Latina and she, you know, went on to say that Snow White is a very popular story in Latin America, you know? I mean, obviously it’s Disney’s first animated feature film.

 

Louis Virtel Yep, 1937, the first, and charmingly hand-drawn. I mean, something I kind of object to about this particular remake of a Disney classic is the joy of Snow White to me is how it looks like the pencil on the page is like the star of that movie to me, like so many of those movies, like Bambi, whatever. But in particular, that I think is just a pleasure to watch on the screen, the kind of watercolor quality of everything going on.

 

Ira Madison III And if I can say, Snow White in general, like it’s a gorgeous movie to look at. But the most iconic thing to me about Snow White is her outfit, to be honest. Because I’m not sitting at home firing up Snow White. I think when we think of the Disney Renaissance that we grew up with, which began with Little Mermaid in 1989, when I had the pillowy Disney boxes, you know, those plush cram shows that the movies were in. And my sister and I were always re-watching Disney movies. Like we could go through four movies a day, to be honest. Snow White is maybe at the bottom of that list.

 

Louis Virtel Right, I mean like truly it’s the kind of movie where the way Disney characters are portrayed at the park, it’s built for that because it’s just about like, oh, you can really recreate this look. Like it’s about a particular hair and about a particular dress and not really about the soul of that character.

 

Ira Madison III Homegirl don’t really do a damn thing in that movie, too. First of all, talking to witches and taking apples from strangers, what are you doing, bitch? I’m going to say, you’re the star of this movie? I’m smart enough.

 

Louis Virtel That she sleep during half the damn movie. Right. And then we already have a signature sleeping princess too. And Aurora did that. Now that was a spinning needle. Okay. That was iconography.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Maleficent? Yeah. Let’s just say all these stories which originated with the Brothers Grimm, why were they so concerned about women sleeping?

 

Louis Virtel Right, I’m worried. Yeah, investigate that. And Grim is right there in the name. You know what I’m saying? Actually, that reminds me of one of my favorite Wendy Liebman jokes, the great underrated comedian Wendy Liebman who said, “‘My love life is like a fairy tale.'” It’s Grim. Come on, jokes.

 

Ira Madison III The next controversy happens about a year after Rachel’s casting when Peter Dinklage went on Marc Maron’s podcast and said he hated this reimagining of Snow White because there’s a lot of hypocrisy going on, literally no offense to anyone, but I was a little taken aback when they were very proud to cast a Latina actress as Snow White, but you’re still telling the story of Snow White and the Seven Doors. Take a step back and look at what you’re doing there. It makes no sense to me.

 

Louis Virtel Well, what would he know? Sorry, how can you not release a statement like that and not pay attention to it and heed it? I mean, of course.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, the interesting thing about this though, is that there was backlash to his backlash that came from actual little people. Like one of the stars and producers of Little Women LA, which I know through classic memes, like, well, what the hell are we gonna do now?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I remember. They were well-meaned. The 2010s were heavily that.

 

Ira Madison III There’s a response from other people in the community that has basically said actors like Peter Dinklage who are stars who want to play other roles beyond dwarves and little people, when they make comments like that and then get to go on and be amazing characters in like Game of Thrones and Station 11, et cetera, other people who are just basic working actors and need jobs like that don’t get them anymore and so then they just don’t work in Hollywood anymore.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, but I think the flip side of that is he’s one of the few actors that really gets the microphone to say these sort of things. So it’s like, you do want to hear from him anyway.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, it’s like people didn’t want people to play munchkins, right, in Wicked, but then all those people were just people who were sort of shrunk down to look like they were munchkins.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, it’s complicated, correct, but this isn’t even the heart of the matter. We have to get into the real things that are controversial here.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, so then it’s always someone doing an interview. Right. Because in a variety Q&A with Andrew Garfield, Rachel started saying that, you know, she never really saw someone like her playing this role. And, you know, she was responding to the backlash. And then she got attacked again when people found her tweets. where she basically was talking about how she didn’t really care about Snow White.

 

Louis Virtel And again, what are the qualities about Snow White that make her care aboutable? I just don’t, I feel like people have sort of had it out for Rachel Zegler, like there’s a particular- They have. Gratefulness quotient- From the West Side Story thing. Yeah, that they think she doesn’t fulfill and it’s just, I don’t know. She’s an actress trying to play roles and I don’t think she has to act overly referential to any one thing. I don’t, I just, again, we talked about Meghan Markle briefly last week. It’s like I always am missing the part of her story where I’m supposed to dislike her or the thing that made everybody turn. It just feels crazy to me. And by the way, she was really good in West Side Story.

 

Ira Madison III She was amazing in West Side Story and she’s great in Romeo and Juliet on Broadway. And I think that people keep trying to make her this Lea Michele character, but she doesn’t act like, we don’t have horror stories about her like we did about Lea Michele from the set of Glee and Scream Queens, right? It really is sort of echoing Anne Hathaway.

 

Louis Virtel Right, there’s just a particular, and also she seems to have like a sense of humor too. She’s funny. It feels like the wrong sense of humor for these people. Like it’s not quite self-deprecating. It’s not quite, again, reverent first and foremost. And I think people just need to realize that, you know, this kind of, this sardonic sense of humor is not meant to be hateful.

 

Ira Madison III People like Matt Walsh and other conservative people attacked her because she basically talked about how you could cut the princess scenes from the movie, basically, because what does he even do? It’s not his story. Got it, okay. Yes. Then the other controversy comes from the evil queen in the movie, Gal Gadot, who, as we know, was in the IDF. Correct.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, she is from Israel and was in the idea.

 

Ira Madison III Heavily supports Israel and wrote after October 7th, I stand with Israel, you should too. The world cannot sit on the fence with these horrific acts of terror are happening. Sure. And Rachel, by the way, used her platform in support for Palestine at the exact same time. And when the trailer dropped, she was sort of, she shared it and then said, anyway, free Palestine. So she’s been very vocal about this. And Gal Gadot has been very vocal about this. And so obviously there’s this narrative that they hate each other.

 

Louis Virtel And there isn’t much evidence one way or another that they’ve like, they came to blows on set one day, you know, during the big whistling scene or whatever. Is there any other song in this damn movie besides Hi-Ho? That is how they greeted each other on set though, angrily. Hi-Ho, and then the scene would start. Hi-Ho. Now I want to see that! Now this should be a film adaptation of Snow White.

 

Ira Madison III It’s off to work we go. Yes. Honestly, the most iconic thing about any song from Snow White is the Gang Gang Twins’ Whistle While You Twerk.

 

Louis Virtel I’m sure that’s incorporated somehow, someway. By the way, do you remember that, what was that Idina Menzel, Camila Cabello, oh, that Cinderella movie we got on Amazon a couple of years ago? Yes. Okay, do you know what I just remembered about that? Idina Menzel performing Material Girl. We just make people do crazy things in these movies.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I guess there will be new original songs in this film, thanks to Pasek and Paul, because we always pull them out of the closet and make them tickle the ivories when there’s one of these movies.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah, and I need them to triple EGOT quicker or whatever is happening in their careers. When young people have too many awards too fast, I get angry.

 

Ira Madison III You go and you steal them from them. Take candy from babies? No, Louis is walking around Hollywood snatching awards from babies.

 

Louis Virtel The way Carmen Sandiego will like just take a landmark. I want to take large statues from people’s houses Like in a Robin Hood kind of way

 

Ira Madison III Basically, the latest controversy in Snow White is that they have scaled back the premiere. They made it sort of a family-friendly pre-party in the afternoon before the premiere and did away with a big red carpet because obviously they don’t want people asking questions about all the drama to the two stars. And then they also, I guess, released early tickets for the movie. They only went on sale a week before. And guess the idea for that is if they’d gone on sale earlier like Disney usually does for their films, there could have been a narrative. Why isn’t this movie selling well? Because the budget is very high and chances are this film will not recoup it.

 

Louis Virtel Here’s a question, has Gal Gadot ever been in a movie that didn’t cost at least $100 million? Who has a career like this? Look at her filmography. I literally thought to myself, oh, she was in Death of the Nile, that’s not a franchise. Maybe that’s cheap, cost $100 million. The Fast and the Furious movies. Night and Day, another expensive movie. Batman versus Superman. Voice Roland, Ralph breaks the internet. It’s like we refuse to make a movie unless it costs the GDP of a small country.

 

Ira Madison III She doesn’t get out of bed unless she’s bankrupt in Greece, okay?

 

Louis Virtel Wow, yeah, no, it’s just I can’t think of another celebrity like that like Vin Diesel kind of but at the same time He still hasn’t made as many movies sequentially as these. I had a different franchises

 

Ira Madison III I also just can’t think of an actor who is not good and in notoriously bad movies. She’s like, she’s not a, she either is abysmal in a movie or she’s just all right.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, like not that noteworthy ultimately, yeah.

 

Ira Madison III The best thing she’s done is Wonder Woman, the original. And then we got that second Wonder Woman, 1984, and it was sort of like wiped out all of the goodwill that the first Wonder Woman had.

 

Louis Virtel And, you know, I worry about Kristen Wiig being able to do enough like good acting projects. So I don’t know how much time that took out of the Kristen Wiig career canon timeline that I’m very concerned about. I will say in the original Wonder Woman, Gal Gadot made me laugh a couple of times. When she goes up to the person who is selling ice cream and said, you should be really proud of yourself. That was a funny line.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, I crack up whenever she delivers a Wonder Woman line with a stony face and no inflection whatsoever. So, I guess we can say that she did give us the gift of the eternally hilarious line. And enough champagne to fill the Nile.

 

Louis Virtel I love when you can tell an actor is on their 90th take. You’re just like picking hills and valleys in the syllables that aren’t there, you know.

 

Ira Madison III You can tell she has never presented champagne to friends before in her life.

 

Louis Virtel And you can see, she’s got that Shelley Duvall in the shining, like, I got to get it right this time.

 

Ira Madison III You know, yeah, the directors like, hey, you just go out, you’re celebrating with friends and we do not celebrate an idea. Wonderful Gal Gadot impression took me right there.

 

Louis Virtel Anyway, still white. You know what? I haven’t seen a ton of those remakes actually. I saw the Mufasa one when it happened to us last, but you know, if this falls into my lap, who knows? But I, probably not. I didn’t actually even see Mirror Mirror or Snow White and the Huntsman. Were those good movies? Did people like them? No, although Nathan Lane’s in Mirror Mirror. And wait, that’s Julia Roberts, right? Yeah. Okay, it’s important that those two collaborate. Also, Nathan Lane has worked with literally everybody. I’m not kidding. It probably goes back to like. Barbra Stanwyck, he has literally worked with everybody.

 

Ira Madison III You know who else is in Mirror Mirror? ARMY Handler

 

Louis Virtel And luckily we get to hear that girl’s thoughts on his podcast, where he is just spit-balling.

 

Ira Madison III About hooking up with people on Grindr?

 

Louis Virtel But at the same time, first of all, it’s very confusing about this story. He’s like, oh, I tried hooking up a beautiful man and it didn’t work out, I wasn’t into him at all. He still had Grindr on his phone, why?

 

Ira Madison III That was the puzzling part about it, but listen, do you discriminate between men and women when you’re hungry? Okay. He was using Grindr to- But a revolting question. Thank you. He was using Grindr that one time to try and fuck a guy because he wanted to try it, but he’s fine with using Grindr when he needs a meal.

 

Louis Virtel Got it. And also, there’s like some black font involved. It could have been mistaken for a Postmates or an Uber Eats or something too. Maybe that’s how this began for him.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. All right. Well, when we’re back, we are joined by the iconic Nathan Lane. And I promise I will not ask him about Mirror Mirror. But before that, some quick housekeeping.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III This week’s guest is a formidable talent of stage, screen, and everything in between. You know him from unforgettable performances in productions like Angels in America and The Producers, to hallmark screen roles in The Birdcage, Only Murders in the Building, and many more. Today, he’s here to discuss his latest project, Mid-Century Modern, a multi-generational gay sitcom hitting Hulu on March 28th. Please welcome to Keep It, it’s Tony and Emmy winner, Nathan Lane. Hi.

 

Louis Virtel It is such a thrill to see you, first of all, on TV again, which it feels like you only drop in on TV somewhat sparingly, like we can expect you on the stage. How satisfying is it to get laughs in this kind of environment, in a classic TV environment, you know, a format, this kind of show, not these kind of characters, but this kind of show is so standard to television. It’s so rad to get to see you play in such a classic format.

 

Nathan Lane Well. Thank you. Well, it always helps to work with some of the best people who’ve ever done this. Jimmy Burroughs, you know, the legendary Jimmy Burroughs, who’s directed all of the episodes, and Max Muchnick and David Cohan, who created it, who created Will and Grace. And, yeah, it’s… It’s been an extremely happy experience. And yes, it’s great fun to do it in front of a live audience. I, you know, I haven’t done one in a long time. And it’s really a writer’s medium up until the last take, you know, and these guys go off and huddle and come back and we’ll give you six new lines. And so they’re constantly. changing, rewriting it and trying to make it better, or figuring things out in front of the audience. And so it’s, it is this strange hybrid of theater. It’s not really theater. It’s more about the writing than anything else. And, but we’ve just, it’s just been a very, you know, it’s the luck of casting and people, nice people, professionals coming together, being kind to one another. you know, try to do good work and it’s been a real pleasure to work with everyone.

 

Ira Madison III One of my favorite aspects of the show that sort of I feel like mirrors my own life, Louis’ own life, is just moments when you’re all hanging out together. I think of an episode that I just finished where you were all singing, like he had it coming for Chicago, just like the bursting into song that I feel like gave me due when they’re together and hanging out. Were there moments in your own life that drew you closer to the script that you were excited to portray?

 

Nathan Lane Ugh. Well. Sure.

 

Ira Madison III lol

 

Nathan Lane I don’t often find myself into the cell block tango, but there are people who do, I’m sure. I’m not one of them. That doesn’t reflect my life really, but I understand people who do. It was just a very funny set piece. a little, it was a part of a cold open for the show. Yeah, a very funny idea they came up with. You know, it’s about, you know, it is about getting older, that part I understand, and chosen family, and especially for this character, my character who’s, you know, an older gentleman who’s sort of has one foot in retirement and, you know, hasn’t had a great a romantic relationship, a long-term romantic relationship. And these two friends, played by the great Matt Bulmer and Nathan Lee Graham, are incredibly important to him. And I think he’s very shaken by the death of this other friend, the other member of this group of friends who met on Fire Island years before in the 80s. So, um, which is why he, uh, on the spur of the moment says, why can’t this be the rest of our lives? Which is a rather dramatic thing to do. But he’s also very wealthy. He’s a very successful manufacturer of women’s bras. He has a chain of stores across the country called the Bunny Hutch. His name is Bunny Schneiderman and he lives in this huge house in Palm Springs with his mother, Sybil, played by the late great Linda Lavin. And so it’s a big move to make to say to you two best friends, move in with me. I’ll pay for everything. But I think he’s feeling lonely and he wants that security, I guess, the companionship of these two and, you know, it’s sort of. for their lives as well.

 

Louis Virtel We associate you so much with Broadway that I assume most of your influences come from there. But you’ve also said you’re a great admirer of Phil Silvers, who preceded you in the role on A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. But I was wondering, what other TV stars inspired you growing up? Who did you find yourself watching that maybe influenced what you would do with your career? Thanks for watching!

 

Nathan Lane Oh, Gleeson, Jackie Gleeson, that was the major influence, I think because I was aware that he came from, you know, poverty and was a self-made man and, you know, obviously the honeymooners, which was a huge influence because of his partnership with Art Carney and it was reminiscent of Laurel and Hardy. They were a great comedy team. But he was also, Gleason was, when he wanted to be, was a terrific serious actor as well as being able to do broad comedy. So there was a tremendous amount of pathos in The Honeymooners as well as, I know people always bring up that there’s a threat of violence, Which I always found. You know, his threats are ineffectual. I don’t, I never thought he was actually going to beat Audrey Meadows. Um, I never thought it would come to blows, but, um, it’s just, he’s sort of, so, you know, it’s like a child. And, um, so, uh, um, yeah, I think he was, he’s really been, um, you know, a huge influence and, and, and if you’ve seen him in, in things like the hustler. Requiem for a heavyweight, you know, he’s just there’s a lot there’s a lot going on in there He was a very complicated guy, but you know brilliantly funny and also wonderful a drama So that that’s sort of You know that sort of interest interested me Being able to do both

 

Ira Madison III Speaking of comedy, we had read the story about you helping Bill Burgett cast in Glengarry Glen Ross. And I’ve just finished Jeffrey Self’s memoir, where he discusses sort of an early friendship with you when you were doing Adam’s Family with him and Cola Scola. And it makes me wonder, have you always been a person who is… still consuming new comedy, finding new voices and new people to just sort of potentially work with or just seeing what’s out there in general.

 

Nathan Lane Well, I, you know, I just remember seeing them, Jeffrey and Cole on YouTube. It became a thing, the Jeffrey and Cole casserole. And I just thought they were hilariously funny. And then I think I just, one night after a show, I saw them in a restaurant and just said I was a fan. You know, brilliantly talented guys. And, and, uh, it’s so, it’s, it’s also nice to see. I know, I think Jeffrey has a memoir that just came out. Yes. But, uh, but Cole is lovely to see Cole have this, having this big moment with old Mary and, and, uh, cause he’s been around, even though he still looks 12 years old, he’s been around quite a while doing, being brilliant. So it’s nice that people are discovering him in this way. Um, and bill i didn’t know bill personally yes it was my suggestion because initially they were they uh… jeffrey richards the producer and mammoth had approached me about playing shelly levin first they want they wanted to do it with an all female cast and they wanted to do it with man and women and i they asked me and i said no I don’t think that’s a good idea. Finally, I said, listen, you know, Mammoth wanted me to play Shelley Levine and I said, I’m happy to, but it will be the third revival of it, the one, two, yes, it will be the third revival of this play. You know, it has to be, you have to make it an event and you have to get an all-star cast. Because I don’t want to be the only one sitting on Seth Meyers talking about the play. So, you know, I need help. you know, grandpa needs some help. So I said, and the first person you have to cast is Bill Burr. He sounds like a David Mamet character. And he’s, you know, he’s, and his, his comedy, it just, you know, I can just hear him and he has to play this role of Moss. And so, and by that point, I had also suggested the director, Patrick Marber, who had gotten involved. He’s a British director. he’d won a Tony for it. the Tom Stoppard play, Leopoldstadt. And so he was not familiar with Bill and Jeffrey Richards was not familiar with Bill. So I sent them an email with a scene from the Mandalorian, a scene from this movie, Bill had done with Pete Davidson and him doing standup. And I said, pay particular attention to the fact that Mr. Burr is speaking to an arena that is packed. This is also helpful when reviving a play. for the third time. So he, Patrick Marburg had a phone call with Bill and who said he’d been waiting 30 years for someone to ask him to do a play. And I guess Patrick said, you know, this came about because Nathan Lane, who’s gonna play Shelley, thought you would be great in this part. And, you know, he was, you know, he was very sweet about the whole thing. And then of course, because of… I had done the pilot of Mid-Century Modern and then it very quickly went to series. I had to pull out of the play. And then they called one day and said they had gotten a Bob Odenkirk, who’s also brilliant and I’m a huge fan of his. So yes, I nudged them towards Bill. I helped get the whole thing going. But I hear it’s, I hear it’s, they’re in previews now. I hear it’s really terrific and Patrick has done a great job. And it’s a great group of actors, Karen and, and Michael McKeon. And so, so yes, I was, it was my idea, but Bill, you know, doesn’t need my help. I’m sure he’s, he’s just fantastic.

 

Louis Virtel You’re one of the few people I can think of who, I mean, you’re obviously a mid-century modern now, but you’re one of the few people who’s been a part of gay character ensembles for generations, like Love, Valor, Compassion comes to mind. And one thing that blows my mind in particular was one of the first TV projects you did was a remake of Valley of the Dolls, in which you co-starred with Gene Simmons, who is in the original Guys and Dolls. which you named yourself after the Nathan Detroit character. And I was wondering, was there any formative part of that, what seems like a wild experience remaking Valley of the Dolls, I think like 10 years after the original.

 

Nathan Lane I think you’re overestimating my participation. I went to LA in 1980, I was part of a comedy team. And I believe it was my manager, our manager at the time, got me this job as a day player on this television remake of Valley of the Dolls. Yes, and Gene Simmons was playing the Susan Haywood role. And I believe Lisa Hartman was playing the Patty Duke role. She was. And, uh, and for those, you know, um… keeping score. I was playing a role that in the original film was played by Richard Dreyfus. I was the state manager at the Academy Awards. And I believe I had to keep saying the same lines over and over for Gene Simmons, which was, Miss Lawson, you’re on. I believe it was, Miss Lawson, please, Miss Lawson, you’re on. If I did it today, I might. do a little more improv. But yeah, it was just a job. It was just a job. I was just a kid trying to make a living.

 

Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

 

Nathan Lane I didn’t bring up the Gene Simmons that I hoped one day to play Nathan Detroit on Broadway. But yeah, no, I remember. I do remember doing it and thinking, oh, it’s Gene Simmons. Gene Simmons is playing the Susan Haywood role.

 

Ira Madison III I’m so glad that Louis brought that up, obviously, just guys and Dallas in general.

 

Nathan Lane Oh guys and dolls in general

 

Ira Madison III Okay. I mean, when we’re talking about things that are very important to me, we did Guys and Dolls in high school, and then I fell in love with that cast recording. I’m usually the only person requesting Guys and Dolls songs at Marie’s Crisis. Do you remember anything in particular from that Broadway season that you just sort of enjoyed? Do you look back on that period, like 1992, like fondly being in that production?

 

Nathan Lane Well, sure. Sure. It’s a very fond memory. Yeah, they did it in 2009, I think, and I guess it proved that Guys and Dolls is not foolproof. I guess it didn’t go so well. I didn’t see that production. I heard it opened in a dark hotel room with Damon Runyon at a typewriter, typing. I guess they were going for the dark, gritty underbelly of guys and dolls. So I got some of the best reviews of my life with the 2009 production. 1992 production has took on a very, you know, golden hue because of that production. You know, it’s brought up more than the original. 1950 production people, you know, are still around who remember it. What I remember is that it hadn’t been done in a long time. It was done in the late 70s. I had seen that production that was directed by Abe Burroughs, to it. who wrote the book.

 

Ira Madison III The Motown version, yeah?

 

Nathan Lane Yes, the Motown group, which sometimes hilarious, but had some great stuff in it and some great performances. Bob Guillaume played in Detroit and he was hilarious. A woman named Norma, this is really only for theater folks, a woman named Norma Donaldson played Adelaide. She was sensational. and the great Ken Page, who we lost just not too long ago, played nicely, nicely. And it was the first time I saw, it was, you know, Sit Out on Your Rock of the Boat really became this revival meeting. It was just a great arrangement and Ken was sensational. So it hadn’t been done since then. So 1990, so that was 78, 79. So this is 1992. So there was a lot of, and it was Jerry Zaks, the director who was his, he had been hugely successful at Lincoln Center and this was his first commercial production. So there was a lot of people, and it was guys and dolls, the quintessential musical comedy and New York musical comedy. So there was a lot of attention put on it and basically sort of the unspoken phrase of don’t fuck it up. Um, so. Yeah, it’s a great show, but it was boldly designed by Tony Walton and William Ivey Long. The sets were incredible and I don’t want to say cartoon-like, but very bright colors and you had to figure out the tone of that version of it. You know, and that took a while to figure out, oh, you have to come on and make bold choices. You can’t, otherwise the set will just drown you out. So it was an interesting process and that had a happy ending, but a great, you know, the Faith Prince and I just, was just kind of had that wonderful chemistry that you can’t really predict. and uh… everybody was great, just a great company of actors. And yeah, no, it’s very happy, very happy memory for me.

 

Louis Virtel I saw you recounting some of your favorite roles in a video and two of them were that role in the front page which is an old play that turned into His Girl Friday for people who don’t know and then also Roy Cohn in Angels in America and I seem to notice that these are both total bastards. I was wondering what the joy is of playing a bastard and maybe being one of the definitive bastards in all of theater history.

 

Nathan Lane Well, um, look, the front page is just a, uh, uh, it’s a classic American comedy from 1928 it’s a, uh, you know, as I, I think I referred to it as a glorious piece of machinery, it’s just, um, you know, a brilliant setup and, and, um, you know, it was written in 1928 so that it was a period where they did three act plays, people weren’t in a rush to get home. or check their phones people people could take a little bit of exposition and and uh… you know they were you know it you could take your time and setting something up and then adding the complications and then it all pays off in the third act so then that character of walter burns who is you know do anything to get the story And and when you you know those characters who are so driven. Um, they’re great fun to play because the, you know, it’s just what you. um you know you will do anything to get what you want you know you know it’s pretty clear what what you want in a scene uh if you’re playing Walter Burns and um yeah and I just wanted to you know this is only of interest to theater people but I wanted to be the guy who said the last line of the play is is one of the most famous lines in in theater which is he Yes. the son of a bitch stole my watch, which is a payoff to him in what seems like a sentimental gesture giving the hero of the play, Hildy Johnson, his star reporter, he gives him his watch and when everything has been repaired and resolved because he’s getting married, And then, and then he calls his assistant at the office and that wants him arrested because he doesn’t ever want to lose him as a reporter. He’s leaving reporting, you know, and so he calls and has him arrested. And he says the last line is the son of a bitch stole my watch. So the joy of hearing an audience who were either knew what was coming or didn’t know what was coming and were sort of horrified. what I was doing and then how that line lands if you’ve spent an evening watching this story that he does this thing you think maybe he is a human being for a minute and then you realize no he’s doing this to manipulate the situation and he’s going to have the guy arrested um is you know it was just it was thrilling to hear an audience discover it or or enjoy it again uh And the, you know, would always bring the house down. So yeah, I wanted to, it’s just why they’re just fun to play. He’s because he’s just so passionate about his job. He’s not a nice guy. He’s not a nice guy at all. But those are great, great fun. They have a lot of interesting complications to play.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you so much for being here with us. And I mean, lastly, I just want to say, speaking of bastards that you played on TV, you got to murder my friend, Corey Mock on El’s Beth. And I thought that was, that’s truly one of my favorite things that you’ve done recently. That’s the best episode of El’s Beth that I’ve seen. I love watching it. Murdering someone for talking during the opera is a perfect motive.

 

Nathan Lane Corey was absolutely hilarious. You know, it’s television, so if they could have only left in everything he did. He was really great as this obnoxious Wall Street guy who sat in front of me. Yeah, yeah, no, it was great fun. And yeah, you know, Corey and Carrie Preston.

 

Ira Madison III Fantastic.

 

Nathan Lane Yeah, no, it’s very it’s a great show to do Thank you so much

 

Louis Virtel Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for being here. And also the show is so funny. If you guys haven’t seen, it’s crazy that we haven’t had a show about gay guys in Palm Springs before. It’s about time. Thank God.

 

Nathan Lane Yes, well, people need to laugh right now, so. I hope this helps.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you to Nathan Lane. Watch Mid-Century Modern on Hulu starting March 28th. And when we’re back, we chat with Jeffrey Self on Sex Workers in Film.

 

Louis Virtel [AD]

 

Ira Madison III Today’s episode is double-stuffed because we have another special guest joining us this week. This guest has been all over the industry for nearly two decades, and he chronicles it all in his new memoir, Self-Sabotage and Other Ways I’ve Spent My Time, out now. From his days coming up in comedy with Cola Scola, to his nights as a sex worker in New York City, to his credits in shows like Search Party, 30 Rock, and Shameless, he’s here to talk about his journey. Plus, the best and worst portrayals of sex work on screen. Without further ado, please welcome to Keep It, Jeffrey Self.

 

Jeffery Self Hi guys, how’s it going?

 

Louis Virtel Oh my god, it’s such a thrill to have you on the show. I’ve known Jeffrey forever. We were once upon a time in a review at UCB called the Gay Beatles, which was me, Jeffrey, Brian Safi and Guy Branum. And I still don’t know how we landed on the words gay Beatles, but.

 

Jeffery Self Me either. It’s not a great title.

 

Louis Virtel No, why were we that? We don’t, I don’t sing, like what? Yeah.

 

Jeffery Self None of us can probably even name a Beatles song. I mean, unless they’re like covering Diana Ross. I don’t know. I don’t know how we landed there. I want to say it was Guy’s idea, but I’m just pointing and blaming somebody.

 

Louis Virtel I would be happy to blame Guy, thank you.

 

Ira Madison III He can handle it and you and I just did well just did it was last year, but you and I played Lindsay Lohan in the parent trap

 

Jeffery Self We both played, finally, people were wondering when are those two gonna play Lindsay Lohan as twins? And Kevin Zach answered that. Yeah, we did it at Littlefield, right? Is that what that place is called? Littlefield, yeah. It was so fun. That was such a fun night.

 

Louis Virtel I associate you with dynamic, comic performances. You just have a genuine knack for characters, period. But how much pleasure do you take from actually just physically sitting down and writing? Like, it feels like you have kind of as deep an introverted part of your brain as an extroverted part.

 

Jeffery Self very much. I don’t love leaving the house. So writing is sort of just kind of like the only option at this point. And that and just like ordering takeout. And I do I like writing? Not really. No, I don’t. I think it’s it’s pretty miserable experience. And it’s all of the bad things that are cliche to say about it are. Absolutely true. I mean, Ira, you just had your wonderful book come out. I mean, I’m sure it’s a similar, you know, it’s a very insular, strange experience, especially when you’re writing about yourself, right? Yeah. It’s awful.

 

Ira Madison III I’m also like, it was like, I love staying at home. I feel like the only time I run into you is when I’m going to CVS and you’re walking your dog. 100%, yeah.

 

Jeffery Self I’m stopping in Rite Aid to pick up meds usually as well. They’re just like, oh, we’re upping them again this week, are we? Okay, let’s see what’s in the bag this week at Rite Aid. But yes, I feel like we live near each other, but yeah, I never see absolutely anyone. But I will say I don’t wanna write a book again anytime soon. It’s so boring. It’s such a boring experience. I just like want to be like on a TV show, like answering calls, like in a call center. I just like want, like, you know what I mean? I wear like the same outfit. You’re like, I want to be like a tech guru on like a CBS show. That’s all I want at this point. You want to be on Matlock. I would love, I mean, well, that’s a different can of worms. I mean, that’s like, yeah, yeah, I want to be on Matlock. I want to work with Kathy Bates. Yeah, duh, obviously. Or else bad.

 

Ira Madison III Like Nathan Lane, who was just on this episode. We talked about you, because you mentioned him in your memoir. I do. Yeah, let’s get you a receptionist role on El’s Beth. They shoot in New York. Absolutely.

 

Jeffery Self Has Nathan’s, I’m sure he was promoting this, has his sitcom premiered yet? I’m very excited for it. I read the pilot and it was so fabulous. I auditioned for a role in it, but then they… I mean, I didn’t get it. Spoiler alert. And, but then I found out they wrote the role out and I was like, I took that as a sign that it was, they were like, well, if he can’t do it, nobody can. But then I spoke to like 4,000 other gay guys that were like, oh yeah, I tested on that. I was like, oh, well, I didn’t go that far. They just didn’t watch my tape. Okay, good to know, good to know.

 

Louis Virtel Is it a pleasure to be just like a hired actor on a sitcom? Like when you just come in and do a part or is it particular pressure not having rapport with the people around you or having to build a rapport quickly?

 

Jeffery Self A, I’ve only been on a sitcom once. I was on Hot in Cleveland. And it was like my, I think my first job in LA. And I don’t, I find sitcoms really hard because I can’t see without my glasses. And so much of it is like hitting your mark. And so I find that really difficult. But it’s really weird when you do like a guest star thing and you show up, you know, on like a set where people all like know each other. And I mean, you’re always, I always feel like I’m gonna get fired. And so far, I haven’t, but I feel like I came close. I did an episode of iCarly, sorry, no autographs, please, last year. And I was in a really dark place when I did it. And I got in an argument with the director day one. And then, because I was mad, I was full anti-mask actor. They wanted me to do the run through of this sitcom in like a COVID mask and shield and I like was not getting laughs and they were giving me notes and I was like, well, if I wasn’t wearing a mask, I would get laughs. And, uh, I then, then they were like clearly annoyed with me. And then the entire set got shut down like five minutes later because someone got COVID from not wearing a mask. Oh my God. And then we got shut down for a month and I was sure. I was like, there’s no way, there’s no way they’re bringing me back. Like this, I have been toxic from the moment I stepped on this set. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve refused to wear a bow tie. Like I, I am not, I’ve not made any friends and, but then somehow again, I mean, I think casting is just lazy. They brought me back.

 

Louis Virtel triumph

 

Jeffery Self of laziness. I’m really coming across as someone you want to hire. I’m here to get jobs, boys. I’m here to get jobs.

 

Ira Madison III One of the things that you discuss in your book, obviously, is your Craigslist sex work. And you talked about how this was something that you discussed at dinner parties, and then you were finally like, let me put this in the book. So what was this like, I guess, sitting down to be like, I’m gonna write out this thing that I’ve comfortably told, you know, in. in a warm room before to now have it be in a book and be a thing that, well, now I’m gonna be asked about this for the rest of my life.

 

Jeffery Self I know. Well, I didn’t think about that. I was like, really just sort of like, well, this will cover 50 pages. But now it is weird because it’s sort of all I’ve been talking about for a few weeks now. And, you know, I did sex work pretty much full time for… a little over three years until I moved to L.A. And then I tried to do it there and they were like, no, we’re good, you don’t have abs. And I was more of a New York kind of sex worker, more downtown kind of scene. And I didn’t, but I never, like I used to talk about my life on stage and in other ways, but I never, was talking about that. And I think when I did it at the time, I was also, it was when me and myself, but when my friend Cola Scola and I were doing our show on Logo, Jeffrey and Cole Casserole, and we were having like this weird sort of version of success in that like we were, you know, being written about in Time Out Magazine. And, you know, strangers were following us on Facebook, but like we were not at all. I mean, we’re getting paid, you know. $5,000 and splitting it between us to like make this show. And so we have this sort of outward version of success, but neither of us, you know, could afford to live. And both of us, I got called into the old trade, into the tradition and it’s how we got by. And so it was this weird sort of thing where, you know, sometimes I would go over and have sex with someone for money and they would at the end be like, love your show. And it was, you know, it made me feel, you know, like Candice Bergen, you know, and as we all know, she did as Derry Murphy Brown, no. But I felt, in writing about it, like looking back at that time, I was so stressed about money, and I was so stressed about like wanting to succeed and seeming successful while I did this thing. But in retrospect, as I wrote about it, I was just like overcome with like pride and joy I’m like um, gratitude that I, that I did do that. And I met a lot of really beautiful people and sometimes not lovely, nice people. But like, I, I met, um, a lot of people that really helped me out at a time in my life where I don’t think I would have like stuck around New York city, um, and continued like pursuing my dreams if I had not, you know, been jerking people off for a hundred dollars.

 

Louis Virtel I wanna say maybe it was Nico Santos or something talked about once how he would be a comic who had just appeared on TV, but then he was also that night a waiter at a restaurant or something like people, like it must be confounding to be somebody’s idea of success is, but then they don’t understand that like you don’t just get like a platter of money you live off of, you know, it’s like, it’s still gig to gig basically.

 

Jeffery Self Yeah. And this was like such early internet days. I mean, I feel like you were doing the verbal voguing videos back then, probably around the same time.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I believe I’m still waiting for a paycheck from that. I was going to say, and that’s how you…

 

Jeffery Self I was going to say, and that’s how you bought your Malibu house, and it was…

 

Louis Virtel The Palm Springs one was, yeah, I saved that for my vidster, yeah, right.

 

Jeffery Self But yeah, it’s this weird thing. And I mean, I think I take comfort in like the fact that I think we’re all still on some level. Like I think you’re always doing that. Like I was thinking about like when I was watching the Oscars, I was like half the people in this room literally don’t know how they’re gonna pay their rent this month. And like we’re watching this going like, oh my God, this is a glamorous, this is so exciting. But the reality is like everyone is faking it at the end of the day. Like, I mean, there’s like. six people in the world that aren’t faking it and everyone else is is is they just are and um and uh i take comfort in that yeah

 

Louis Virtel I believe Eileen Hechert, who won the Oscar for Butterflies are Free in 1972, she would show a fabulous Goldie Hawn movie. She the next week picked up a welfare check and was applauded in the welfare line by people who had just recognized her from the Oscars.

 

Jeffery Self Oh, I love that. I don’t know that story. That’s great. That’s good. Trivia. Yeah, that’s the movie where she’s also in the bad seed. Yeah. Goldie Hawn falls in love with a blind guy, right?

 

Louis Virtel Correct, yes. It’s a very Neil Simon kind of looking movie without being Neil Simon, correct? Exactly.

 

Jeffery Self Sorry, my dog is barking because he hates Eileen Eckhart. She’s like, God, she, yeah. She kind of gets a little overboard in the bad seed playing drunk. I mean, we get it, you’ve had scotch at 9am, but we get it.

 

Ira Madison III He would have booed her.

 

Jeffery Self I won’t throw up. Yeah, right. She’s so good. And isn’t, she plays Diane Keaton’s mom in First Wives Club, right?

 

Louis Virtel Correct. A movie that secretly has, like, twice as many famous people as you think it does, correct?

 

Jeffery Self Every time you rewatch it, you’re like, you’re in that?

 

Louis Virtel Right, Stocker Channing, you had 30 minutes of time to film this, right? Yeah, 100%.

 

Jeffery Self jumped off that building.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, if anyone’s method.

 

Ira Madison III I wonder is that so I want to ask is you know having written about this having experienced it You know we just came off of a Nora winning Best Picture, and there was all this controversy you know about a young sex worker beating out Demi Moore even though She tried to get her Oscar for a sex worker film, and it just turns out strip tease was bad. You know What what are your favorite portrayals of sex workers on film

 

Jeffery Self Well, I mean, I guess at the end of the day, they water down sweet charity and she’s no longer a sex worker like Knights of Cabrilla, Cambria, Cambria, I don’t know.

 

Louis Virtel That’s a cabiria, yes.

 

Jeffery Self So in the musical, she’s no longer, but I always watch that through a sex worker lens. And I always find I think that movie kind of shows sort of the joy of sex work and like the sort of… They support each other. The women do. It’s empowering. And I’ve always, like when they’re standing on that bar and talking to the big spenders, I find the camaraderie of all of that quite beautiful. And I mean, again, I’m going to say the same with Best Little Warehouse in access. where it’s again, it’s like, y’all are having fun. Y’all are having fun and you’re looking after each other. And it’s gonna be a hard candy Christmas, but that’s okay, because we’re in it together. And yeah, I love when sex work is shown as like not a gritty, you know, underground thing where it’s shown as this sort of, yeah, I mean, duh, people obviously pay for sex. Like, are we pretending they don’t? And I like when it’s just sort of shown as an obvious thing that is nothing to be ashamed of, whereas I think both those movies sort of do that. And I loved Enora though. I did love Enora.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, me too. I thought Inora was great. And she, that’s a magnificent performance and a fine Oscar win. Absolutely. One that comes to mind is Belle Watling in Gone with the Wind. Now, I don’t know if you know this about this movie, the social mores of it hold up in every way. There’s not one thing that’s dated at all. So just trust me on that. But she’s like, I just am obsessed sort of with the trope, and this goes along with Best Little Horror House in Texas, the wise old madam who runs it, and yet she’s like maybe the most expensive one who runs the joint and yet wears like lovely clothes. And I, but she’s an office worker. I don’t really know what she does, but like the authority she had in that movie I love.

 

Jeffery Self Yeah, it’s like, are you doing paperwork? Like, what are you doing all day? Like, what are you up to in your office? Do you have an office? Who’s running this?

 

Louis Virtel Who’s running this? Yeah, yeah. Do you like take care of the mailbox? Like, what happens?

 

Ira Madison III Who’s checking the mail, babe? That’s kind of like the Madame and Poor things, but then also it makes me think of Julie Christie and McCabe and Mrs. Miller.

 

Louis Virtel which the hardest Bob who ever lived, Julie Christie.

 

Jeffery Self Very much, very, very much. You know, I don’t know if you ever listened to Mark Maron, but he will just not shut up about McCabe and Mrs. Miller. He is just, it’s like every episode, it’s like he has just discovered it for the first, it’s like he’s Pauling Kale in the center. All of a sudden, he is just, he will not shut up about that movie. Every episode, you’re like, really, again, Mark? And I’m here for it.

 

Ira Madison III That’s me and Louis with Eve’s bio. Right, every time we’re like, woo, Debbie Morgan nailed it. It’s sort of a film, too, that I feel like, obviously, you know, Warren Beatty is great in it and it feels like a movie that Mark Maron would constantly reference. But I feel like it’s sort of a film that’s lost to modern audiences. We need some sort of revival of it.

 

Jeffery Self I love that people are like, okay, we’re gonna talk about McCabe and Mrs. Miller for 10 minutes. But it is also like, the whole movie feels like it’s filmed through cheesecloth. It’s very, it’s very strange. I don’t love the look of it, hot take. And they can keep it, if you know what I mean.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Now I wanna be, I’m pretty sure it’s Quentin Tarantino who hates either the look of the movie or the sound. I think it’s the sound in particular. He can’t stand about the movie, but yeah, watch it for Julie Christie. And also of course, Warren Beatty did used to be the hottest man who ever lived. I mean, and speaking of the two of them, of course, they are lovely in shampoo as well.

 

Jeffery Self Oh my God, I have a friend who fucked Warren Mitty for many years, I’m not going to say her name, but like she would, before Annette. And I will say, from all stories point to a great lay.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, a white man with lips, let’s say that. Let’s say that. Before Lisa Rinna, so you know that’s not plump.

 

Louis Virtel Right, no, it makes no sense. Cause like, does Shirley MacLean have like big lips? Like I always remain baffled by their being related.

 

Jeffery Self Well, that is, I mean, where’s that documentary about those just Thanksgiving dinner with those two? Like, I need that immediately. Are they on good terms? I feel like they haven’t been, but they probably are now, right?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, it probably comes and goes, you know what I mean?

 

Jeffery Self I can’t imagine Shirley’s easy. You know, there’s always that moment for a net where she’s like, Shirley’s coming over. You can do this and that, like, she’s like pinching her cheeks, like, trying to get herself awake, like, it’s gonna be a long Christmas, it’s gonna be a long Christmas.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. I think, and that and Warren really share like a pragmatism vibe, like they seem very like down and with it. And I think Shirley has the sense of humor of a pragmatic person, but is of course, you know, a little out there. So there’s probably some, a little bit of distance here.

 

Jeffery Self And I want to make it very clear. I will do anything to ever have a martini in Malibu, like that picture of Shirley MacLaine, having that enormous, you’ve seen that paparazzi photo of her wearing.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure.

 

Jeffery Self that huge sun hat, I mean, I don’t even know they made martinis that big, but what appears to be noon is joining that lunch is my epitome of heaven, ultimately, really.

 

Ira Madison III Well, I mean, by the way, in our neighborhood, you need to try the martini at San Sabino, because it’s perfect. I’m just shouting that out. You know what, I’ve actually never been there. It’s spiced and it is stuffed with feta, the olives are.

 

Jeffery Self Mmm, I don’t like cheese in my drink.

 

Ira Madison III Decadence. Oh, all right. Well, I hate olives and I hate like blue cheese olives, but I tried this feta one and I asked for like an extra one. It’s so good.

 

Jeffery Self Okay, alright.

 

Ira Madison III All right, just try it.

 

Jeffery Self I’m not an olive girl, but I, I don’t, I guess, okay. I’ll try it. I’ll try it. I’ll take your word for it. Do you ever see Ellen Bark and walking around our neighborhood?

 

Ira Madison III I hate olives. I do, I do see Ellen.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I love Ellen Barkan. Oh my god Ellen Barkan come on Keep it. Geez.

 

Jeffery Self Please, I literally see her like once a week walking her dog and my dog likes her dog. And I always try to like make that a thing between us but it’s never worked and I always walk away. Uh, she didn’t fall in love with you and, uh, but one of these days, one of these days.

 

Louis Virtel I feel like that will happen. I’m not being facetious. It feels like that will actually happen. But by the way, speaking of the city of New York City, also of course, one of the great prostitutes of all time is Jane Fonda in Clued. I was waiting for you to bring up Jane Fonda. Okay, well let’s just say this. The therapy scenes are of course magnificent or whatever, but what I actually love most about the character is the way it’s the stereotype of a prostitute in movies which is hardened to the world. difficult to access, but only through a dogged investigator who can see her or whatever, and then also just involved in lots of audio recordings, just the scandal of everything about her, and of course, a mystifying haircut.

 

Jeffery Self I was just about to say the hair in that movie. I mean, I think at some point when I was like a 20-year-old twink, I think I had a version of that haircut. Like I thought I was Zac Efron, but ultimately I was just Jane Fonda in Clute. And I’m, I missed this day. The traditional gay experience, yes.

 

Ira Madison III And I would be remiss if I did end with bringing up like hot men who are jiggalos on screen. Obviously Richard Gere in American Jiggaloo is, you just love watching him walk in that movie and my own private Idaho.

 

Jeffery Self Well, my own private, yes, and mysterious skin, though I think he’s a little young, but he’s wonderful in that. It’s beautiful, that movie. That’s a dark.

 

Louis Virtel I love Mysterious Skin. That’s definitely the best Gregorocky movie and it’s crazy that that is Brady Corbett, now the director of The Brutalist.

 

Ira Madison III Also, Michelle Trachtenberg is in it, Louis, even though you tried to erase her as a film actress.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Yes, no, I wasn’t denying that Michelle Trachtenberg had been in a movie before. I believe that there was a Harriet, and she did spy, but I’m just saying if we’re talking about the end memoriam, you have to get rid of something.

 

Jeffery Self That girl was nosy. She was nosy.

 

Ira Madison III She was a nosy bitch. I have to say that the scene when she goes and tells that girl, Marion, your daddy doesn’t love you, I feel like that’s part of my origin as a bitch. That is one of the nastiest reads I’ve ever seen on film.

 

Jeffery Self Part of my identity is Eartha Kitt’s eye mask and Harriet the spy. And Harriet needs to get out of her dumb waiter. Get out of Eartha Kitt’s dumb waiter, honey.

 

Louis Virtel I’m also just upset with the latter, nondescript parts of careers like Eartha Kitt. She’s still gotta pay the bills in the 90s and she ended up in Harriet the Spy. Who made that call? Thank you very much.

 

Jeffery Self and here you get the spy. Santa, baby, whatever.

 

Ira Madison III Well, Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining us. The book is fantastic. I enjoy it. You’re such a fun, awesome writer.

 

Jeffery Self Thank you. I adore you both. I miss seeing both of you, but I’m not leaving my house.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you so much, Jeffrey. And don’t forget, Self-Sabotage is out now wherever you get your books. When we’re back, it’s keep it. And we are back with our favorite segment of the episode. Louis, what’s your keep it?

 

Louis Virtel So there’s this new show, Adolescence, on Netflix, and all I had heard was, you have to watch this show. I didn’t know what that meant. Sort of a foreboding title when you see the picture, there’s sort of a kid glowering and his dad in the foreground. This show is unbelievably amazing, and my keep it goes to this show that it is only four episodes long, because the epic nature of what you’re watching seems to indicate you’re gonna get seven to eight episodes really diving into these characters, and it feels like it cuts it off too early. I’ve never felt that way about a TV show. as you know, Mike. Even the White Lotus right now, I’m kind of wishing it were five episodes as opposed to whatever it ends up being eight. Like Big Little Lies season two probably would have been good if it were four episodes, you know? This is a show about a kid, I’ll try not to give anything away, but a 13 year old boy is charged with murdering a classmate. And- As you do. Right, you get a little upset, who knows? But this is a show where all four episodes are one continuous take. So you’re watching, like in the first episode, the kid gets arrested, and then you’re taken to the police station and they find a way to follow the car there. The action doesn’t stop. First of all, as far as the first episode goes, it’s just interesting from a perspective of a lot of police type shows are boiled down to the confrontations, like this person screaming at that person, and then whatever, we watch that character break down. But in this case, you get these small moments where the cops regroup and talk about the case, and then maybe you get something that’s a little bit more slice of life humdrum before you get into this room with this alleged killer. It’s just, it’s wild to watch the technical prowess of the show. It’s a bravura directing moment. All four episodes are completely different. One is him talking with a psychologist. Anyway, all I’m saying is I stayed up hours last night just watching this. I could not let this show go and yet it let me go because it feels like they could have gone much further with this. So I have to say, keep it to the weird, oddly truncated feeling of this show.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, and Netflix released the takes that they used for each episode. On episode one, they used take two, which was shot on shoot day one of five. Episode two was take 13, which was shot on shoot day five of five. Episode three is take 11, which was shot on shoot day five of five. And episode four was take 16 on the last day that they shot that episode.

 

Louis Virtel I saw an interview with the kids star of this, who is amazing by the way, and all these actors I’m not familiar with, they all deserve to win. I’m telling you, you’re watching the Emmy winners when you watch this show. They said that they would do two takes a day as an of the full episode. So you’re getting one take at a time that they’re all in. It’s like they’re doing a giant one act play in a bunch of locations in order to film this show. I’ve never seen anything like it. It’s completely remarkable. And anybody reviewing the show would say the same thing. If I had a criticism, I might say. Maybe you can, it’s easy to want to turn on a show that’s impressing you so much technically. You’re like, is this, you know, maybe compensating for a lack of material, but it’s not. The characters are unbelievable. It’s devastating. There’s not a note that feels like they reshot it. And of course they didn’t.

 

Ira Madison III A kid murdering a classmate is giving law and order, and I just want to say maybe we just need to make prestige TV shows out of law and order plotlines.

 

Louis Virtel And by the way, Esapathe-Merkerson, just be in more things, thanks. Ira, what’s your keep it?

 

Ira Madison III My Keep It goes to the new production of Othello. That’s how we say Othello in the theater world.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. And where you’re from, Italy, right?

 

Ira Madison III I’m a Moore.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, got it. Okay. Okay. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. My keep it goes to Othello, not because I’m not interested in seeing Denzel fucking Washington play Othello and Jake Gyllenhaal play Iago. That sounds so fucking amazing to me. The last production of Othello that I saw was Daniel Craig and David Oyelowo play this role and that was amazing and it was set sort of in a military setting in Afghanistan or something, I believe, and so… I’m really excited. I was excited to see this until I went on telecharge and was like, how much are tickets? I looked up a matinee showing at 1 p.m., by the way. A house seat all the way in the back is $600 fucking dollars.

 

Louis Virtel Wow, I did see a note that the first week sales for this play made it the highest grossing play of all time for one week of sales.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, with $930 fucking dollar tickets. No wonder. Oh, I get it now. Even the cheap seats are like $400 fucking dollars. Are you kidding?

 

Louis Virtel No, I will say this though. I mean, is there anything more like cultural apex than Denzel Washington playing Othello? I mean, like that’s a Tony secured. In fact, additional keep it. I do not like that Cola Scola will have to compete against Denzel Washington in Othello for the play acting Tony. Feels like, you know, a comedy like Oh Mary should kind of be in a different category. But at the same time, I guess losing to Denzel Washington in Othello is a pretty good way to go.

 

Ira Madison III It’s an iconic way to lose, you know? But what’s so funny about it, too, is there was a reporter from The Post who was set to review it, and they wrote an article about the $900 tickets and said that they were disinvited, and then they went and paid for their own ticket and did a review and slammed it. Now they are from The Post, so they could be fucking lying. It’s a contrariana. Yeah, just because they’re angry. I’m going to see the show, somehow. Um, Denzel. Denzel, you want to take me to see the show? Who who is this a coy prostitute character you’re? And does she work often? So baby, I’ll do anything. I’ll do anything for a ticket. That reminds me, just I want to end by saying that reminds me of, I don’t know if you’ve seen this clip online of Janet Jackson. I think it’s like early 2000s, baby, look, the All For You Tour. She’s being interviewed on ET or something. And the interviewer is asking, oh, yeah, like I would love to come and see the show, Janet, et cetera. As she turns to him, she’s like, for free?

 

Louis Virtel Where has this Janet gone? She doesn’t come out often. She’s not like the wisecracking Jackson sibling. You know what I mean? So good for her.

 

Ira Madison III All right. That’s our show this week. Thank you to Nathan Lane and thank you to Jeffrey Self for joining us. We will see you next week. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And, if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Louis Virtel Keep It is a Crooked Media production, our producer is Bill McGrath, our associate producer is Kennedy Hill, and our executive producers are Ira Madison III, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James.

 

Ira Madison III Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gaieski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centeno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.

 

Louis Virtel Our Head of Production is Matt DeGroot, and Madeline Herringer is our Head of Programming. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

 

Ira Madison III And as always, keep it as filmed in front of a live studio audience.