Saw II | Crooked Media
Jon, Jon & Tommy's first ever book is here - Order Democracy or Else NOW! Jon, Jon & Tommy's first ever book is here - Order Democracy or Else NOW!
January 16, 2024
Ruined with Alison Leiby and Halle Kiefer
Saw II

In This Episode

Halle and Alison get locked in the ultimate escape room to ruin Saw II.







[theme music]: If scary movies give you dread. Keep you up late night in bed, here’s a podcast that will help you ease your mind. We’ll explain the plot real nicely then we’ll talk about what’s frightening, so you never have to have a spooky time. It’s Ruined.


Halle Kiefer: Hello. Welcome to Ruined. I’m Halle. 


Alison Leiby: And I’m Alison. 


Halle Kiefer: This is podcast where we ruin a horror movie just for you. 


Alison Leiby: Just for all of you. Halle, how are. How are you doing? 


Halle Kiefer: I’m okay, I am. This is my last day, and I’m about to have two weeks off. 


Alison Leiby: Oooh yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: And I am in heaven. I’m going to repaint. This room is gonna be a different color by the time we’re recording next. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, wow. What color are you going to paint it? 


Halle Kiefer: I’m going to basically switch. So this is going to be a peach. And then I’m painting my living room like a light—


Alison Leiby: Pantone color of the year. 


Halle Kiefer: That’s a little too yellow for me, but but I, I support all peaches. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. Um, okay. That’s nice. Yeah. And then the living room is going to be teal?


Halle Kiefer: Um, the living room is going to be like a mint, so I feel like I made a bad choice. And both of these colors are too dark, and so I want to lighten them. 


Alison Leiby: Oh that’s nice. Yeah, I want to paint, but it just feels like there’s not really enough space in here for me to do that. [both speaking] I should have done it before. 


Halle Kiefer: A little accent wall? I don’t know. I don’t know.


Alison Leiby: I know I’ve thought about it and I have, like my friend upstairs, lives in this same it’s the exact same apartment layout. And, um, she painted, um, under our kitchen island, which I think I am going to do, actually. 


Halle Kiefer: Oh yeah, that’s cool. 


Alison Leiby: Because it gets all scuffed up and it’s like we have gray counter gray granite countertops and it’s like, oh, like a lighter, darker gray on that wall instead of white. Would be nice because it will probably not be as dirty looking all the time. And then and she did a little alcove that we have painted. She painted it like a lilac and it was really nice. And I was like, oh, I love that. But it just like, I don’t know, it’s all fun in theory until I have to actually paint something. 


Halle Kiefer: Ah but the you only have to do once, you know what I mean? 


Alison Leiby: It’s true. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s not like a ongoing nightmare. Anything. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, yeah. Well. We’ll see.


Halle Kiefer: Well. How are you doing otherwise? 


Alison Leiby: I mean, I, I think we are both, uh, very sad. Um, we’re recording this in mid-December because we’re getting ahead for, uh, the holidays and our break, but, um, uh, the comedy community in general is, is, uh, a bit of a disaster because, uh, Kenny DeForest, a very funny and absolutely, like, warm and wonderful comedian, was in a bike accident and passed away, um, a few days ago. And it’s just it’s so horrific. And it’s he was so young. And there’s just like, I hope that everybody who bikes, um, wears a helmet and is really careful. And like, especially this time of year, it gets dark so early, it it’s so much harder to see what’s going on. I it is absolutely tragic. But it has been like really, really beautiful seeing like every comedian posting about how great Kenny was and what a like wonderful kind. Um, and just, like, warm person, like everybody. Like, if you knew him for like, five seconds, he was just, like, the nicest, warmest you were one of his best friends. Like, it was just like, he was so great. I know you, um, knew him as well, and it’s just, uh, I mean, it’s so sad, but he has a ton of comedy out there that you guys can go watch. And, like, I implore everybody to please, like, he has a YouTube special. He’s been on Late Night a bunch of times. He has a Comedy Central set. Like, he’s so funny. He has great politics. Like just everything about like,. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: I a huge endorsement to go to go watch and support those things because those, you know, those views, you know, matter and it’s still money that goes towards his family and and also just like a brilliant mind that shouldn’t be forgotten. So. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: It’s been hard. 


Halle Kiefer: Uh, yeah, I, I’m really glad you brought him up. And I’m glad that we’re remembering him. And I didn’t know him as well as you did, mostly because I stopped doing standup after a certain point. [laughter] But I do remember him as so, so warm, so incredibly kind. And I’m honestly in therapy dealing with like, the out my, my years in the comedy trenches and like, um, truly the, um, and I’m not saying this about all comedians, obviously, but at least at the time, I think. And and now probably it’s like just a truly toxic. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Insane patriarchal like it’s just just a really horrible environment. I think as a woman to work with, work in and at the time in particular. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Let Alone anyone else. And I think I remember again, I didn’t know Kenny, but Kenny was someone who I thought of is so incredibly genuine and nice and just approachable. And he’s also good friends with two other comedians, um, Clark Jones and Will Miles, who is currently writing for me. He does, um, write jokes for Lovett or Leave It. 


Alison Leiby: Oh yeah, Will is the best. 


Halle Kiefer: And so they’re both so funny as well. And I just think of them as like this incredibly like positive male like—


Alison Leiby: I know. 


Halle Kiefer: —unit that we got to know. 


Alison Leiby: Totally broke through all of the like absolute shit bags that we have to, like. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: Suffer through at every open mic and every show and every hang and stuff like that. And it’s like those guys, you were just like, oh, thank God. 


Halle Kiefer: Thank God honestly.


Alison Leiby: Thank God they’re here. 


Halle Kiefer: Truly. 


Alison Leiby: Thank God I get to talk to them, that I get to know them. And then also getting to watch all three of them. And obviously Kenny in particular right now has felt like what a what, how lucky we are that we got to be in a community with them. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: Um, it’s also made me so grateful, like that comedy that there is a comedy community and like that there are. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. 


Alison Leiby: Like real connections. And so much of my love goes out to that Chicago crew because they are all so tight. But, I mean, I think also I look at like this podcast and the community it creates and how like, wonderful it is that like when awful things happen, like I don’t think we are alone and it’s like really nice that we have that and now we’re just gonna cry—


Halle Kiefer: Cry. 


Alison Leiby: I [laughs] I cried at a Target Atlantic terminal the other day that it was not the first time I’ve cried in there. 


Halle Kiefer: Um oh no, I yeah, I believe me I remember that Target, I think you, you actually have to start crying before they let you in. 


Alison Leiby: They’re like, are you in the middle of trauma? That’s the only, you’re the only people who are allowed to come shop here at this absolute hell hole. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: Um, but it is just like, you know, as we, as we reach the end of the year and things are, you know, both, like, really joyful but also really hard for so many people. It has been I don’t know. I know that people are listening to this in January in the new year, but it’s been such a nice, um, you know, I look at this podcast and I look at, um, all of the listeners and the people who, like, reach out to us and like, I mean, I can’t count the number of people who have, like, messaged me, like great info about, like, endo and fibroids and all that. And it’s just like, wow, you’re total strangers and like, they don’t. It’s just so nice. And I really. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: I, you know, seeing everybody rally around Kenny’s family and Kenny’s close friends in this, like, awful moment, um, makes me really grateful that. We have each other. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. And I think as you’re saying, it’s like, oh, right, this will come out in January. But yeah, I think we just want to, I don’t know, keep, keep a mindset of gratitude is how I think about it. Sorry I’m gonna cry. 


Alison Leiby: I know. 


Halle Kiefer: But yeah it’s it’s truly yeah. It’s just um yeah. [sniffles] Yeah I think it’s, um, you know, there’s so many people in your life that like, it’s like, again, we weren’t close, but, you know. You know, the impact you could have on people and also makes me want to be like the importance of comedy, which also is like, oh my God, but it’s true.


Alison Leiby: It’s true. And like, you know, you know, I think there’s like so many times where people are like disgustingly self-promoting, but like to see every single person sharing these clips of Kenny and being like, I think about this bit all the time, and it’s so funny and like. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: It is so nice that, like, he’s gone, which is awful. But like that we get to like have that still like that there is all of this like recorded, really brilliant, fun, joyful like comedy that he made and like that, that can be revisited or found for the first time by people. And, you know, it’s it’s, you know, nicer than just a picture and it’s just nice to have that. Um, and it does and it does last. And like that people are like, sharing like jokes and like funny things that he did and said and like, it’s not all as sad as it all is. It’s also this, like really great celebration of like what he was able to do. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, yeah. And I think, you know, like you said that, but I think it’s like, um, a moment for all of us to sort of like, sorry. [laughs] I think, you know, sort of understand sort of our own role in, like, all of our communities. And also, I think a lot about legacy, you know, and I think working in the entertainment industry, I know I’ve definitely, um, found myself being like, well, if I don’t do this one particular thing, then, you know, mean that I wouldn’t have done anything. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: I think, you know, having like, a creative life is a legacy in itself, you know, and to be able to make all these things. So like, like you said, like live on, you know, I, I think it’s, you know, sort of a reminder that all of our work is important, like everything that everyone does touches someone. Um, anyways, so so the so the movie this week is Saw II. [laughter]  So we’ll get into that. Um, but yeah. Thank you for bringing him up. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. And think this is, this is now being, you know, released like like, you know, probably a month after this happened, but, you know, go watch his stuff. Um, he was a really special guy and, uh, you know. Yeah, it’s all and wear a helmet when you ride your bike. And be careful because it’s in New York, and LA in particular. It can be so dangerous. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, well, thank you. And, uh, guys this is a horror movie podcast—


Alison Leiby: Well, we’re still in sequels month. 


Halle Kiefer: Yep. Here we are, baby. [laughter] Um, but yeah, so we are doing, um, Saw II to, um, scene. If you will. And, uh, we are keeping it moving. We, of course, like to have Alison watch the trailer, uh, for every film we do. Alison, what did you think of the Saw II trailer? 


Alison Leiby: I it didn’t and Saw, it. The original Saw is one of the four horror movies I’ve seen and I like. I remember how it ends, but I don’t remember if we like. Like. Know. Do we know who Jigsaw is at the end of the first one? 


Halle Kiefer: Yes we do. Yeah. So this is a great question that I, I myself had to remind myself. But yes, we do know. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: We know both who it is and also that he is uh, has a terminal cancer. 


Alison Leiby: Oh right, right. 


Halle Kiefer: Oh don’t worry in case you didn’t know that he does explain it all again. 


Alison Leiby: Honestly. Thank you. 


Halle Kiefer: Thank you Jigsaw. And of course— 


Alison Leiby: Thank your Jigsaw. 


Halle Kiefer: Jigsaw is the killer. The serial killer aspect. Um, and his name is John Kramer. And, um, it is this movie. I was just such, uh, we were we were suppose to record two episodes today, and I, we’re doing one because, like, my ADHD brain is popping off, and I just can’t focus long enough to do two, I will say, finishing this movie. And maybe that was part of it. I was like, I want to I will kick Jigsaw’s ass myself. Like, if I have to hear this bastard explain. Like, actually, if you think about it like it’s good. I was like, I could punch you in your old face. Like, how dare you? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. He seems to pontificate, um. 


Halle Kiefer: He stinks. 


Alison Leiby: The vibe of this as kind of like escape room. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. This is like—


Alison Leiby: It is escape house. 


Halle Kiefer: It is escape room after escape room. And then. But the instead of finding like a fun code to solve with your friends, you just find a gigantic pit full of hypodermic needles. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: So [?] that guy’s less fun. 


Alison Leiby: I feel like I remember hearing about, like, when this came out. I remember, like, hearing about, like seeing, like, the hypodermic needles was like, mentioned. Uh. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: And like in the cultural discussion. Um, yeah. This trailer sucks. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. Big time. Stink. Uh. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Uh, and—


Alison Leiby: I really just want it to turn into. Did you ever, ever watch The Onion’s online the web series Sex House? 


Halle Kiefer: No. You’ve talked about before I should. 


Alison Leiby: I just add it to your list? It is like it gave. This gave me Sex House vibes. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay, great. There was. There is a certain element of that I could see. Um, there is. However, uh, we also like to take a baseline. Scary. I think a fun one we have. I don’t know if we’ve ever had it. And if we have, it’s been a while. Alison, how’s spooky or how scary do you find the concept of poisonous gas? 


Alison Leiby: Oh, I actually like. Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay. 


Alison Leiby: Um, that’s actually, like, kind of top of mind recently. 


Halle Kiefer: Thank God. Okay. 


Alison Leiby: For me, because I, like, I don’t know, I think something’s, like, happening to my brain where I’m, like, slowly, like, losing my grip on reality because I keep like, I was like, feeling kind of off. I took a COVID test. I was like, it’s not that. And it wasn’t a flu. And it wasn’t a cold but I was like, I was like, I was like, oh, I just I was like started panicking that I was like getting carbon monoxide poisoning, like. 


Halle Kiefer: Oh, girl, I’ve been there—


Alison Leiby: Like that was like I—


Halle Kiefer: I’ve had that panic. 


Alison Leiby: And it’s like, it’s like I just something like for some reason, like my paranoia went there because I was like, well, I haven’t been outside. And I was like, maybe that’s the problem. Go out, right, get some fresh air and walk around, you dumbass. Um, but I [both speaking] don’t know why, but it’s a very it’s like a very scary fear. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, I yeah, I always remember that poor, um, Weird Al Yankovic, his parents died of carbon monoxide poisoning. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: And, um, I remember them asking him, you know, like, because he went on tour pretty soon after. They’re like, well, why did you go on tour so soon after your parents died? He’s like, well, the alternative is staying home and crying—


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: —my parents dying. Like, what do you mean? Like, well, uh, I mean, like, I was, I was at least I’m getting out of the house. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and of course, horror movie wise. Uh, the most psychotic carbon dioxide poisoning moment was, of course, the beginning of Midsommar. Horrific. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Do you ever remember that, Alison? I see, I see the look in your eyes. 


Alison Leiby: No, you could have said anything, and I would have agreed. 


Halle Kiefer: Great. Well, but go ahead. Uh, if you haven’t listened, please go back and listen to our Midsommar, um, episode. And then before we begin, would you like to guess the twist in Saw II? 


[voice over]: Guess the twist. 


Alison Leiby: At first I was when I was watching the trailer, I was like, I bet the safe isn’t even locked. Like, because the whole thing. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay. 


Alison Leiby: Is like a safe. Like they’re trying to get the code to open a safe that has the antidote to the poison. But then I was like, oh, you see them like pulling on the safe. So I feel like maybe it is locked. Um. I’m going to guess that the code. I’m going to guess that these people are all connected to each other. 


Halle Kiefer: That is correct. And do you want to guess how like, do you want to just throw out, like, how do you think they’re connected? 


Alison Leiby: Well I was going to guess that it’s all different. Like but maybe they all, um, like. Came from this were born in the same hospital. 


Halle Kiefer: Love it. Perfect. Exact. Perfect horror movie. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. Yeah, yeah. They’re all born in the same hospital. And I think that the code for the safe is actually going to be like, uh, like it’s going to be, like, very obvious. 


Halle Kiefer: Great. 


Alison Leiby: Like on the safe, but like, they’re missing it. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, I just want to say this is directed by Darren Lynn Bousman, who also did Saw III, Saw IV, and Spiral. Um, he also directed the horror musical Repo! The Genetic Opera. Which I remember because Paris Hilton was in it. 


Alison Leiby: Oh. 


Halle Kiefer: Do you remember that? It was it was, um, it was a based on an actual opera, and it was like a sci fi opera. And, uh, Paris Hilton had a small role in it. Um, uh, Sarah Brightman was in it. Anthony Stewart Head. Uh, Paul Sorvino. I I’ve never seen it. I don’t know why I listened to the credits for a movie we’re not doing. Uh, but it was also written by, uh, Leigh Whannell. Uh, Whannell. Sorry. Um, who, of course, uh, wrote the original Saw, which is directed by James Wan. Shout out to James Wan I was just thinking about Malignant this week. Put a smile on my face. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Maybe I’ll watch that over the break. I I’ve been in a Malignant mood. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, a little secret hedge. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and I saw, I wanted to say, um, these gentlemen did a great job. This my issue with this movie is not the film itself, but rather the ethics of one Mr. Jigsaw. 


Alison Leiby: Um, okay. Oh, so you don’t agree with Jigsaw’s methods? [laughs]


Halle Kiefer: No. And I know this is going to come as a shock to you. I don’t agree with much of his ethos. I. Politically, we are, uh, on very different sides of many of these things. Um, and of course, uh, Jigsaw is uh, or John Kramer his not serial killer name is played by Tobin Bell. Great. Absolutely. Chewing a lot like he’s giving everything. He’s giving what you want to be given. Um, as a villain, I think I think he’s just great. And, uh, so let’s begin again. If I when I complain through this entire, uh, uh, summary, please know, it’s it’s it’s about the character, not the film itself. . 




Halle Kiefer: Alison. We open on a glowing green light bulb flickering to life. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Instead of the uh uh, um, killer POV. We are in the victim’s POV. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, no. 


Halle Kiefer: So we’re waking up as the victim. Fun. Um, we hear a man’s terrified, panting as we him sort of look around, and you know what kind of room he’s in, we’re talking bare concrete walls, grime. 


Alison Leiby: Grime. 


Halle Kiefer: We got an air duct, a stinky TV. Like a TV that, you know, if you touched, it would be a little. 


Alison Leiby: Filmy. 


Halle Kiefer: Sticky, right? Exactly. You get the idea. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: So our victim reaches out his hand and we see that he is sitting in a chair and there’s a dentist mirror in front of him, which is always a bad sign. 


Alison Leiby: It’s like also like stuff at the dentist is scary without being in a disgusting room. 


Halle Kiefer: As we’ve discussed, as people, as as gals with, um, who’ve had a lot of work and, well, need a lot of work more. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Horrifying. Um, and to see a dentist’s mirror when you’re not a dentist, even worse. And we see him sort of tilt the mirror towards himself, and we see there is an apparatus around his neck. Alison. It’s tethered to the wall. Oh, you hate to see an apparatus. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: This man’s name is Michael Marks. And he is, of course, as we know, we could assume he is in one of Jigsaw’s darn traps. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, that darn Jigsaw. 


Halle Kiefer: That darn Jigsaw. Uh, Michael is naked except for his underwear in this chair, and one of his eyes is bleeding already, so he woke up with a bleeding eye. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, bleeding eye. You hate to see that. 


Halle Kiefer: Let me now describe the apparatus to you. It is sort of a heavy metal collar attached to a mask. And sort of. It looks like a face mask in front of him, full of spikes. And we see sort of the, uh. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s sort of a, uh, Iron Maiden, but just for the skull. So the front is full of spikes and the back has also spikes, and we already see it’s going to slam shut like a Venus flytrap, right? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and, uh, he. Michael leaps out of his chair, trying to figure out, okay, what is what is Jigsaw up for this time? And the stinky little TV turns on. And of course, it’s it’s Jigsaw. It is the puppet. And he’s up to his old shenanigans. Alison.


Alison Leiby: Is he on a live feed or is this like a prerecorded message? 


Halle Kiefer: The implication is that it’s prerecorded. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: But also it’s also the puppet talking, so it’s not the actual man. So I’m like, I think we’re supposed to think we are not exactly sure. I just always assume because we always cut to the VCR, cut to the DVD player, that it’s prerecorded. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, but he tells Michael, hello? Hi. I want to play a game. It’s like, well, okay, that’s what you do. That’s what you love to do you know what I mean. Jigsaw lays out for us. 


[clip of Tobin Bell]: Society would call you an informant, a rat a snitch. I call you unworthy of the body you possess, of the life that you’ve been given. 


Halle Kiefer: I’m gonna stop you right there. I’m already mad. 


Alison Leiby: That’s rude. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s like you’re a dumb ass and you have no taste. Okay? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: You’re going to come and tell this person who I’m sure sucks that he’s unworthy. Look what you’re doing with your life. 


Alison Leiby: You’re an asshole. Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: You’re a piece of shit. You got you made a puppet to terrorize some guy. You made this mask. Death mask. You’re going to tell him that he sucks? You suck. 


Alison Leiby: You suck sir. 


Halle Kiefer: And he goes on. Michael, uh, let’s see if you’re willing to look inward rather than outward to give him the one thing you rely on in order to go on living. His eyes, the mask around your neck is a death mask. Well, he pieced that together—


Alison Leiby: Got it. 


Halle Kiefer: He said he’s on a spring timer. If you do not find the key and time to unlock it, it will close. And boy, is this pickle, guy in a pickle now, Alison, you hate to hear it. 


Alison Leiby: Seems like it. 


Halle Kiefer: We then, uh, Jigsaw then flashes a video of himself, uh, performing surgery on Michael, and he tells him, since you won’t have much time, I’ll give you a hint. And he flashes an image, and we see it is an x-ray. So the key is hidden behind Michael’s eye. 


Alison Leiby: No. No. 


Halle Kiefer: So that’s where we’re starting with eye business.


Alison Leiby: So what he has to, like, rip his eye out? 


Halle Kiefer: He sure does, Alison. And—


Alison Leiby: I mean. Don’t your eyes kind of pop out. 


Halle Kiefer: Alison, I. That’s the most un-Alison thing I’ve ever heard you say. 


Alison Leiby: And I don’t like, don’t like, like I feel like that’s a thing. 


Halle Kiefer: What do you mean by just? What is the word just doing in that sentence for you. When you say just pop out.  


Alison Leiby: Like. I mean, I think that like it happens with like that they can like come out with like a lot less like pain and blood than than you would expect. 


Halle Kiefer: I oh, the ball the eyeball can come out intact is what you’re saying. 


Alison Leiby: Yes, yes. 


Halle Kiefer: You don’t have to go through the eye you can go around—


Alison Leiby: Yeah. You could like, okay, could like pop it out and then dig around. [laughs]


Halle Kiefer: Well, um. Oh, well, if only this had been you. Perhaps that had been the, the the approach you would have taken. Unfortunately, uh, when Michael hears Jigsaw’s directive. Live or die, make your choice. He, of course, freaks out, starts panicking, running around, and the tether is tethering him in the wall, pulls out of the wall, starting the timer. So now it’s a timed eye removal. 


Alison Leiby: Um, would it, if he had just sat there? 


Halle Kiefer: Ostensibly, he could have just sat there. But then how do you get out? Right. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: But regardless, now he must play the game. Personally, I’m more of a charades gal, but. 


Alison Leiby: Um, uh, Pictionary would be mine. 


Halle Kiefer: Michael opens up a metal toolbox in the room and finds a scalpel, and to his credit, he’s like, all right, let’s do this. But again, that’s. I will say, what I like about these movies is that it is agonizing because it is played for realism. Like those moments. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. Yes.


Halle Kiefer: Not like sort of the grandiose, uh, serial killer thing, but, you know, he’s trying to slash his eye. And as he puts the scalpel to it and cuts himself, he screams and he has to stop like it’s so painful. He keeps doing it and stopping, which is what you would do, like the idea that you could just do it and, like, get through it. That’s so unlikely. 


Alison Leiby: No you couldn’t. 


Halle Kiefer: So he’s trying to cut himself. But he’s screaming it’s bleeding Alison he can’t do it in time. And as he screams no, no no no no the death mask slams shut killing him. Saw II. Baby, we’re at it. We find ourselves with our main character—


Alison Leiby: Tough open. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. Excellent. That’s how you open a fucking horror movie if you ask me


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Excellent work. We find ourselves with Detective Eric Matthews, played by Donnie Wahlberg, in perhaps his finest role. The only role I think I’ve seen Donnie Wahlberg in. Oh, no. He was great in Sixth Sense. But you only see him for a minute. Um, he’s at the police station picking up his teenage son, Daniel. Um, they, uh, there’s obviously some animosity. We find out that Eric is divorced from Daniel’s mother. We’ll find out more about that later. And so they have what is, uh, eventually we’re going to find out Jigsaw’s, uh, invested in their father son relationship, but it all seems kind of like normal. Like angsty 17 year old where he’s just like. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: It took you long home to pick me up. And then they go down the pier and Eric’s like, oh, great. Your mother gets to keep custody, and I get to go get you out of custody. Daniel was caught stealing, and he’s not contrite about it. He’s like, fuck you, dad. How dare you even talk to me? You’re lucky you’re in my life. So of course they get into a huge fight. But it’s like a fight that I’m sure every divorced parent has had with their child, who’s upset in general and is acting out right. Daniel says you’re a better cop than a father, and I just. I want to go home to mom’s early. I don’t want to stay with you. And Eric flips out, he’s like then go. It’s like, okay, well, you’re just proving his point, right? It’s like he’s provoking this reaction. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: But also then you don’t have the ability to say, okay, I know you’re trying to test me. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: You know, I know you want me to freak out. Unfortunately he does. And so Daniel goes back to his moms. The next day, Eric calls to apologize. He keeps calling. Daniel does not pick up his phone. 


Alison Leiby: Oh no. 


Halle Kiefer: He’s like, hey, just give me a call back. I just want to get in touch with you. We don’t see him call the mom, which I don’t understand. Like, even if you even hate each other, you call her.


Alison Leiby: You would just. Yeah. It’s your kid. Like you’re. It’s okay. Uh oh.


Halle Kiefer: Yeah, well, but I guess he finds out pretty soon. So Eric gets a call in from work, and he meets up at the warehouse, uh, where we have just seen Michael, uh, have his head crushed. He meets up with his fellow detective, Alison, Kerry. Down at the, you know, the old abandoned factory. Factory where they’re just making old abandoned factories, I guess. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. Yes. Of course. 


Halle Kiefer: Uh, Kerry walks into the crime scene and says there the asbestos workers found the body, and they called Eric down because she said, I pretty sure it’s one of your old informants. And Eric was like, what do you mean? Like, just take a look at it. Let me look at his face. It’ll take two seconds. And Kerry says, therein lies the problem. He doesn’t have one anymore. However, when when Matthew sees the bodies, he says there’s a, um, a tattoo. He’s like, that’s him. And then he notices on the back, on Michael’s back, as he’s just wearing underwear, there is a puzzle piece carved out of his skin. He looks at Kerry because Kerry says, yeah, it’s fucking Jigsaw again. 


Alison Leiby: It’s like this guy. 


Halle Kiefer: Right? It’s like, oh, and she’s like, okay—


Alison Leiby: Are we to believe that, like in between the end of the first movie and this death, have there been other Jigsaw things going on? 


Halle Kiefer: I think so I think we’re to believe like that. This is an active serial killer that people know about. Um, sort of, I suppose, in a Ted Bundy sort of way where, like, they know that something’s happening, they know he’s out there, but they don’t know enough information to catch him. So, um, this is, uh, maybe Jigsaw’s next big project, but I think he they know that he’s still out about this. This was going to happen at some point. Like they were going to find something. Um, and so Kerry says, like, do you know anyone who would want to kill him or her motivation to kill him? He’s like, well, he was a jailhouse informant. So, yeah, dozens of people. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: And Kerry is like, okay, but most people know, like, most like people in prison don’t have an engineering degree  to make something like this. So why did he pick this guy? And she says to him, she says, look closer Detective Matthews he’s kind of confused as, at what? And she says, whoever wrote that and they point to the ceiling and written on the ceiling by Jigsaw, ostensibly says, Look closer, Detective Matthews. Back in the station, they immediately start fighting. 


Alison Leiby: Oy. Was it written just in marker, or was it like in shit or something? 


Halle Kiefer: It was bright red. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: So for a second I’m like, oh, it’s blood, but it just looks like paint. 


Alison Leiby: Like a marker. Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. Matthews is mad at Kerry. For sort of setting him up. Like, why not just tell me about that is Jigsaw on the ceiling thing? 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: And she said, look, I’m not the one taunting you. I didn’t write your name up there. Don’t be mad at me, you know? And Matthew says, I’m not gonna be dragged into this. I have my own fucked up life. I have an insane number of case files. My son hates me and I can’t even get him to call me back. My ex-wife is taking all my money, and we’re not partners anymore, so I’m not. I’m not obligated to work on your cases. 


Alison Leiby: Okay so something is happening with this.


Halle Kiefer: So again. Old partners. Exactly. And Kerry is like, well, forget bringing you into the case. It had your fucking name. What, am I going to not bring you into it like what are you talking about? 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: You’re already into it. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. You’re in baby. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. And he says, no, you’re the Jigsaw expert. So ostensibly Kerry was working on the as already knows enough about Jigsaw and Kerry’s like when did you stop being a cop? So there’s a lot of cop talk that I within a horror movie kind of takes me out of it, I’ll be honest. I want raw terror, you know? 


Alison Leiby: I don’t want a procedural. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. Um, that night, Matthew wakes up and sort of is having a nightmare and a revelation, and he’s seeing all these different pieces put together. He is a great cop, Alison. You know. 


Alison Leiby: Good for him. 


Halle Kiefer: He realizes the warehouse is down at Wilson Steel. Uh, so the next day, Kerry, Matthews and a SWAT team gear up and go to the warehouse to try to look. Is Jigsaw is he still there? Is this stuff there? Can we find any clues? Uh, of course. As soon as they walk in, they walk immediately into a trap. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Well, um, you got  to.


Alison Leiby: That’s his style. 


Halle Kiefer: So basically, they have to open up this sort of cage over a set of stairs to go up. As soon as they start open the cage and start walking up. Uh, one of them, uh, steps through a tripwire that, uh, brings Jigsaw the puppet wheeling out. It also causes the step underneath him to drop away and a metal step to slam into his shins, shattering his legs. And then when the other SWAT members sort of swarm or, like, try to respond, they touch the cage and the cage is electrified. So then all of them start getting electrocuted. This is like 30 seconds after getting on the scene is a bunch of SWAT team members getting electrocuted. 


Alison Leiby: I mean. He is efficient. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, the only one who is still standing calls says send in more people. So the second wave of SWAT—


Alison Leiby: Send in more people? 


Halle Kiefer: —more SWAT members I guess. So they run in and Alison, they have found Jigsaw’s lab, which of course is full of this funniest amalgamation of, like, mannequin legs. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. [laughs]


Halle Kiefer: Welding equipment, like a big pig fetus, you know he just. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: He likes to dibble and dabble. 


Alison Leiby: Loose teeth, I’m sure, like, just all kinds of shit. 


Halle Kiefer: He’s a Jackson Pollock of murder. Alison. They rush up to a seated man. There’s sort of a, uh, desk area and then a separate office that sort of cordoned off by chain link fence, which obviously they just designed so they could use the same space, but it does look cool. They did a good job with set design. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. I like that.


Halle Kiefer: Because I’m like, I buy it. This is what a serial killers lair looks like. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: They rush up to the—


Alison Leiby: They don’t have like a sprawling six bedroom home. Like it’s this. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah, it’s it’s an abandoned warehouse full of random shit. Yeah, human brains. Alison, the man they find is none other than Jigsaw himself, John Kramer. So I’m gonna refer to John Kramer when we were talking to him. And then where the sort of the separate area we’re gonna find ourselves in I’m gonna refer to as, like, Jigsaw’s House or Jigsaw’s Lab. So when we’re talking to John Kramer, I’m just gonna use his human name. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: He looks like absolute shit. And that is of course because as we realized in the first movie, he has terminal brain cancer. Which is why, Alison, if you recall the logic for the first movie, he’s trying to get people to enjoy their lives. I’m already so mad. I hate this


Alison Leiby: I this, like this. This ain’t it, like, this is not the path. This is not how you do that. 


Halle Kiefer: Grow up. 


Alison Leiby: Also, like, uh, enjoy your life. 


Halle Kiefer: Well, that’s the thing and we find out it’s like, oh, I you know, this is my rationale. I have to give people joy. It’s like you’re dying. Call your son. Like, make a new friend, go to the library, read a book. 


Alison Leiby: Go outside. 


Halle Kiefer: Paint a painting. But instead of this. Right. And he’s so self-righteous, but Matthew, you know, runs up to John Kramer says, am I close enough for you now? Get him out of here. But of course, this is all part of Jigsaw’s plan. 


Alison Leiby: Of course. 


Halle Kiefer: John Kramer says to him, well, no, I have to stay here till you solve your problem, detective. The problem in that room, of course, Matthew, Kerry and some of the SWAT members run over to this area, which is sort of an office, I guess. His office space, uh, within this room. 


Alison Leiby: [laughs] That’s where all the administrative stuff work happens. 


Halle Kiefer: Basically. And we see it’s just a, um, a, uh, fabric draped over a shape. Of course, the for a second a moment or so we’re suppose to think it’s a body. They pull the fabric away. It’s a bunch of different monitors, unfortunately. Alison, the monitors are, uh, focused on a house. And in one of the rooms is eight people who are waking up out of unconsciousness. And one of them, of course, is Matthew’s son, Daniel. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, yeah. Well, could have seen that coming. 


Halle Kiefer: Exactly. So, Matthew of course, freaks out, freaks out and starts screaming at John Kramer. But he tells him, look, uh, you’re not going to scream your way out of this. You have. They have two hours until the nerve gas. Which is being slowly released into the house. Enters your son’s body and kills him and everyone in there unless they get out within two hours. We’ll have blood gushing from every orifice. He says, oh yes, there will be blood. Name checking the movie, I guess. Probably his favorite movie. He just wish there been more blood. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, not enough blood. 


Halle Kiefer: And Matthew, he says that to me. It’s like. So where? Where is he? Where? What’s happening? John Kramer says he’s in a safe place. We have see it’s 7:30. Alison, they have two hours. They have two hours to find these people and get them out of this house, which is slowly filling with poison gas. Right? 


Alison Leiby: It’s tough. 


Halle Kiefer: Matthews runs back over to the monitors and demands, uh, Kerry, give him his phone and try Daniel’s phone again when he calls Daniels phone. The outgoing message is Jigsaw. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, come on, Jigsaw. 


Halle Kiefer: That’s just mean.


Alison Leiby: That’s unfair. That’s not fair.


Halle Kiefer: Meanwhile, in the room, we see Daniel huddled, you know, with all the other victims as they start trying the door. Trying the windows. Of course, he’s. This is a complete lockdown prison of a house like the. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Jigsaw thought of everything. Um, well, it’s one guy. Gus freaks out. He’s like, I read this thing about a war reporter who got imprisoned, and they put him in a room, and he was there for nine years. We don’t know what the whatever psycho put us here. We don’t know what his plans are. We also hear a ticking outside the door. 


Alison Leiby: That’s not great. 


Halle Kiefer: Suddenly, Alison, a woman who’s been laying face on the floor, sits up gasping. She’s in sort of hospital jammies and has wrist bandages. It is Amanda who is from the first Saw movie. She is the only person to survive one of—


Alison Leiby: Right 


Halle Kiefer: Jigsaw’s—


Alison Leiby: Was that the bear trap thing? There was—


Halle Kiefer: Uh, yeah. So it was. It was a it was a you’re right. It was a reverse bear trap. Essentially. It was a bear trap over her head. Um, she was being punished because she was a drug addict. Right? Which is that’s what the thing is like, uh, Jigsaw has very, um, regressive, uh. 


Alison Leiby: Yes, yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Reactionary views on drug use and drug addiction. What it is that I disagree with and also, I think most doctors would disagree with. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. No, we we are not. On Jigsaw’s side of—


Halle Kiefer: Right. again, we just want to reiterate. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, we don’t support him. We don’t agree with his politics [laughs] or his outlook on the world. 


Halle Kiefer: Absolutely. Um, however, Amanda, having done this before, immediately wakes up and says, where? Where am I? Uh, another man, Jonas, uh, who’s in the room, says, well, it’s a room. We all just woke up here and Amanda goes, oh. No, no, no no, no. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. She knows. 


Halle Kiefer: She’s no idiot. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. She sees all that disgusting stuff around and she’s like. 


Halle Kiefer: Oh yeah. 


Alison Leiby: I know what, I know where I am. 


Halle Kiefer: Oh I see a little sticky broken chair, I see a little wet mirror. I know where the fuck everything is. 


Alison Leiby: Everything’s kind of yellow. 


Halle Kiefer: But because she’s no slouch, she immediately springs into action and she just starts looking for things. She goes to escape room because you have to, you know. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: So she’s like taking pictures over the wall, like, you know, there’s like she runs over to the freestanding safe in the middle of the room. So, uh, which is, uh, a feature of the room that’s important to know about a huge freestanding safe. She, of course, tries it. It’s locked. Cannot open it. Eventually, she just starts pulling the walls and gets to the fireplace, which is, um, bricked up. She then starts pulling the bricks out of the fireplace and behind them a recorder. Of course she hits play Alison. 


Alison Leiby: The instrument. No. [laughs]


Halle Kiefer: Yes, she plays, um, that song from Peter and the Wolf. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, no, unfortunately it’s not. It’s, uh, a recording of Jigsaw telling them sort of how this is all going to work, and he says, you have two hours to live, and after that, in three hours a door will automatically open, but basically you have to survive two hours. You’ve been breathing and nerve gas already. The only way to, uh, the only way to survive this and walk out the door is to find the antidote which I’ve hidden around the house. So there are syringes full of antidote to this poison gas. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, okay. 


Halle Kiefer: One of them is in the safe in this very room. You all have the com—


Alison Leiby: But that’s not the only one. 


Halle Kiefer: Unfortunately, Alison. All of them are extremely difficult to get to. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: If you can imagine. And a lot of involve, I don’t know, playing weird games. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, no. 


Halle Kiefer: He tells them you all have the numbers to the combination with you in the back of your mind and the clue to their order of the combination can be found over the rainbow. Once you realize what you have in common, you’ll have a better understanding of why you’re here. X marks the spot for that clue. Let the game begin. 


Alison Leiby: This asshole. 


Halle Kiefer: They all freak out.


Alison Leiby: I hate Jigsaw. I’ll say it. Cancel me. 


Halle Kiefer: Please. So they all freak out. And, uh, by all I mean, we have Amanda, who played it before. Jonas, who sort of is our level headed trying to pull people together to work together. Daniel. Eric, Matthew’s son, who is a teenager and panicking. And then, uh, five others Xavier, Addison, Obi, Gus and Laura. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: And they’re all have they don’t know each other. They have no idea what their connection is. Xavier sees a note that also fell out of the fireplace. And with the note it says, don’t. Do not attempt to use this key on the door to this room. Alison. He and Gus immediately run over to the door. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, I would, I would. I would heed the rules. 


Halle Kiefer: I think you got it. And that’s what. That’s what Amanda is sort of the voice of reason. Like, do not do it. If the notes simply says, don’t do it. He’s testing us, right? 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Don’t do it. 


Alison Leiby: I would listen to her every step of the way. 


Halle Kiefer: Right. And Xavier says, this guy’s fucking with us. This is a joke, and I’m about to end it. Xavier puts the key in the door and turns it right as Gus puts his eyes to the peep hole. Of course, when Xavier turns the key, the the key turns the trigger on a gun and it shoots Gus through the back, through the eyeball, and the back of his head explodes, killing him. Alison at this point, I got to ask you, uh, what would you do? 


[voice over]: What would you do? 


Alison Leiby: As someone who famously hates activities? I would. I’d be like, Amanda, you are in charge. 


Halle Kiefer: Yep. 


Alison Leiby: Um, we will all do what you say. 


Halle Kiefer: Mm hmm. 


Alison Leiby: Um I would definitely then just start looking everywhere I possibly could for the antidotes around the house. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, I think that’s all you can do, right? 


Alison Leiby: That is all you can do. That is all you can do. 




Halle Kiefer: Um, so it’s one down, seven to go. Right, Alison. So, um, Jonas freaks out, grabs Amanda, and is like, how did you know about this? What do you know? And she explains, gives us a backstory that she survived last time. And another woman in there, Addison, goes, bitch. It’s obviously Jigsaw. Do you not read the news? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. I was about to ask, like, would people would like people who live in this area know about Jigsaw? 


Halle Kiefer: I think the idea is that. Yes, but maybe you are. I think maybe Jonas was just so flummoxed, but he didn’t think of it. But yes, the idea is that Jigsaw is a known serial killer. Everyone knows what he does. And, uh, basically, Addison’s like, this guy tried to kill us. And Amanda says, No, he’s not. He’s testing us. He wants us to survive this. Oh. I’m sorry. Are you simping for Jigsaw. [laughs] Uh, Geez Louise, like, you don’t have to defend him. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Um. Of course. She then says, you know, I’ve played before. It’s how I know this. Meanwhile, back in John Kramer’s lair. Uh, Eric Matthews is watching this feed. Freaking out, right? 


Alison Leiby: Uh, yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, we also have the SWAT team captain, Officer Rigg, and he’s very much like, let’s take John Kramer in, or let’s kick his ass or, like, let’s do something. Right. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: I’m not comfortable. I’m a SWAT team guy. I want to be doing something. 


Alison Leiby: Action. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah, um, but of course, Kerry’s like, no, this is what he wants. We have to figure out how to destabilize him. Not we can’t just kick his ass, and that’s not going to work. He’s not gonna tell us where they are, right? 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: But in the meantime, we’re calling the tech team to trace where the feed’s coming from. So even if it’s something, somewhere we can’t get to, we’ll at least be able to start from there. But the tech people have to come there to do it. So. Yeah. Um, in the meantime, Matthews comes over to John Kramer is like, okay, so obviously this is about me because you put my name on the fucking ceiling. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Uh, so what do you want? And, uh, uh, John Kramer says, I want a little of your time alone, and I want all the other officers to go, they don’t leave the building, but they have to go stand somewhere else. And Matthews says, I will do that. But if I never see my son again, I will rip your head off. And Jigsaw, this is always his like Trump card. Like, well, I’m dying of cancer. You literally will be putting me out of my misery. 


Alison Leiby: It’s like also like. Bad stuff is happening to people all over the world. Jigsaw. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. 


Alison Leiby: You are not alone in suffering like you are not special because like you are unfortunately ill. Like. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s also just like this is not how gratitude and appreciation works. 


Alison Leiby: No, not at all. 


Halle Kiefer: Like I’m going to terrorize people so they appreciate their life. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s like most, most people and I would say everyone in this movie their lives, they don’t not appreciate their life for no reason. You know what I mean? Like.


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Life is complicated. There are a lot of complicated feelings about it that just some guy doesn’t like how you reacted to your life. But officer Rigg, to his credit, was like, fuck that, do not give him anything. We are not leaving. Don’t even talk to him. We’re not negotiating with him. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: But Kerry says no, like, give us a minute, we’ll put it together. And but, you know, we had to figure this out. And Rigg’s like, look, you just don’t understand because you don’t have a family. I have a family. I understand what Matthew’s going through. Okay? We have to do something. I was like, oh, that’s incredibly mean. 


Alison Leiby: I one of my biggest things is like that you can’t understand anything about the world unless you have a family. 


Halle Kiefer: Why? It’s like, well, I can certainly sympathize. And then, okay, Kerry goes over to Matthews and we find out, like, why are they not partners anymore? What was this animosity? And she says to him, you lost your son the first time because of me. It’s not going to happen again. 


Alison Leiby: Okay? Lost as in there was another son. 


Halle Kiefer: Well, see, I took that to mean that she broke up his marriage. And then, like, that’s why his wife has custody. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, I thought it was like. She is why his other son died. Which I don’t know why there would be another son.


Halle Kiefer: No, I love that but no. As far as we know, that’s his. This is his only son. And the rift was caused by this divorce. 


Alison Leiby: Copy that. 


Halle Kiefer: I think the problem with it is that this would be treats like divorce an addiction like the same as serial killing. It’s like the everything is like, um, morally flat, so that it’s kind of like—


Alison Leiby: Right. There’s just good and bad and. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. 


Alison Leiby: Pretty much anything that’s not. 


Halle Kiefer: Right. 


Alison Leiby: Perfect. Is bad. 


Halle Kiefer: And also when I heard that, I was like, okay, so Kerry is going to have to sacrifice herself. Like we’re setting up some sort of, like, high tension thing, right? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, Alison, we see the clock. They have 90 minutes down from two hours. Meanwhile, back in the Jigsaw house, everyone’s doing the right thing. They’re tearing the place apart. We’re looking all over for clues—


Alison Leiby: That’s all you can do, right? 


Halle Kiefer: Um. And then stepping over Gus’s dead body, like, they’re kind of don’t want to see him, like, kind of throw, like, a little, uh, jacket over him. Jonas plays the tape again to try to see, like, is there anything any other clue? The door opens, ostensibly for all of them to go search the rest of the house. Right. Xavier is immediately a huge asshole, and he’s like a huge guy. He finds a baseball bat with nails in it and basically says, hey, just so you know, don’t, fuck you guys. I’m getting out of here. I’m not going to be dragged down by you. I’m surviving this. His immediate response is I my survival basically requires me to not give a fuck whether you live or die. Meanwhile, Jonas is like, we have to clearly work together. This is—


Alison Leiby: Right. He said we have to. 


Halle Kiefer: We need each other. Exactly. 


Alison Leiby: We have something in common, and we’re already down a guy to help us figure that out. 


Halle Kiefer: Exactly. Addison finds a flashlight so at least now they have a flashlight. People are already starting to feel the effects of the gas. We see Addison is wheezing. Laura, you know, starts to feel queasy. All them are sort of coughing and and starting to gag. 


Alison Leiby: Well, I was going to guess that, like, there is actually not gas and they end up all dying like, and it’s like, oh, if you would just waited technically, like you would have actually escaped. But now I guess that that’s getting debunked. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. Um, hard debunking. There is apparently gas and they arrive at the front door, which has a big fat it says exit on it across double doors and they are like, Xavier, you obviously shouldn’t use the key on the fucking door like he said not to. And he he tries it. Of course it doesn’t work. He throws on the ground and Jonas picks up the key and puts it in his pocket. So at least we know Jonas has the key. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, back in Jigsaw’s lair, everyone clears out of the room. Um, where Jigsaw, where John Kramer’s talking to Matthews. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, Matthew says to him, you know. Okay, so you’re Jigsaw. You’re the serial killer. Jigsaw stops and says, I didn’t name myself Jigsaw. The press did. 


Alison Leiby: The press. 


Halle Kiefer: I carved a puzzle piece out of their skin. Because each of the men are missing the most important thing about being alive. The survival instinct. Fuck off.


Alison Leiby: Fuck off. Also like. 


Halle Kiefer: Fuck off. Sorry. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: I didn’t name myself that. I just carved Jigsaw pieces out of people. Grow up.


Alison Leiby: Right. And then the press really ran with it. Like what— 


Halle Kiefer: What what also—


Alison Leiby: Was he assembling like a giant skin puzzle somewhere or—


Halle Kiefer: I wish. No, it’s all about. It’s about moral lessons. Luckily, Matthew’s to his credit. Just like, bitch. Tell me where my son is. Tell me where my son is. I had this conversation with a million murderers. You think I haven’t sat across from a maniac like you before? 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: So, um, John Kramer starts teasing. Matthews like, five years ago, you were quite the police officer. Do you feel safer behind the desk? You know what’s happening to your career? And Matthews says. You know, you sure know a lot about me. Um. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: So how we can sort of, uh, use that to find my son. And John Kramer offers him an empty cup and basically says, can you give me a glass of water? And he’s obviously just going to be toying with him the entire time. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, back in the Jigsaw house, Xavier starts beating down the front door and smashes it through, only to find, of course, there’s a metal door on the other side. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, of course we’re not. Just like in a house that you could leave.


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. Um, they all start yelling at each other they start screaming. Uh, both Addison and Xavier start coughing at them harder and harder. Jonas sees that Xavier has a prison tattoo and says, wait a minute, you’ve been in prison. I’ve been to prison. Has anyone else been? Addison has as well. So she’s like, okay, is that the connecting thread? We’ve all been to prison. Are we all being punished for that? You know, it is that we’re all criminals and our. But before they even get to answering that, Laura pushes on part of the wall and a door pops out. Alison, this is a lightless, windowless corridor down into the bowels of the house. Um, and they’re going, baby, they don’t have any other options.


Alison Leiby: I mean, you gotta. 


Halle Kiefer: You gotta. 


Alison Leiby: But I’d be like, you guys go and I’ll keep looking up here. 


Halle Kiefer: So they go downstairs, they find a corpse with a mask and a letter stabbed into its chest, addressed to one of them, which is Obi. And they’re like, what the fuck is this? And they find the inside of a tape and they use the same recorder as, uh, from the first floor. They play the message from Jigsaw to Obi. Turns out Obi was his henchman who helped him kidnap everybody else. 


Alison Leiby: Oh. 


Halle Kiefer: And on the recording, Jigsaw says there are two antidotes. Two syringes of antidotes in this industrial sized oven. There’s one for you and one to give away. And that is payment for helping me kidnap everybody. Is that you have a chance to survive, he tells him. You burned everyone with your cons and your lies. But remember, when you’re in hell, only the devil can get you out. Laura has the memory of, like, being kidnaped from her car and realizes, oh, it was him. So of course everyone turns on him like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, you don’t understand. He had control of me. You don’t understand. I had to do it. Addison starts coughing up blood. That’s how bad the gas is right. 


Alison Leiby: Oh so that’s that’s real. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. So everyone is coughing up blood a lot from here on out. And they say to him, hey, you’re going to go get in that oven. If there are syringes in there. 


Alison Leiby: Is it on? 


Halle Kiefer: Or we’ll fucking kill you. The oven is not on. Alison he has to climb into an industrial oven, but he finds a syringe and then he goes to reach and grab for the other one. And of course is attached to chain that when you pull it, locks the oven door and turns on the burners. 


Alison Leiby: Oh my God. Of course.


Halle Kiefer: And we saw that there is a nozzle that has a devil painted next to it that says twist. And I think the idea is like if he had the wherewithal, if he wanted to survive enough, he would reach across the fire and turn it off. But he’s terrified because he’s trapped in an oven with fire, so he scoots to the back of the oven. 


Alison Leiby: Oof. 


Halle Kiefer: Fortunately, the back of the oven, the door has a little window, which Daniel notes, so they start smashing it in. But basically like it’s just logistically difficult. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Like the into the doors of the oven are too hot to touch. Everyone screaming. Everyone’s coughing up blood. It’s just it’s an impossible situation.


Alison Leiby: Jigsaw. You’re a jackass. 


Halle Kiefer: He’s an asshole. Meanwhile, John Kramer, we cut back. John Kramer was telling Matthews like like the human race doesn’t have the will to survive. And he says. Tell me where my fucking son is. John Kramer says, what’s the cure for cancer? And Matthews says, what? I know it’s not torturing and murdering people. And then Jigsaw has the fucking stones to say, I’ve never murdered anyone in my life. The decisions are up to them. 


Alison Leiby: No it’s not. 


Halle Kiefer: Jigsaw is a libertarian, I could tell you that much. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. For sure. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and he says, why are you so desperate to get your son back, bitch? Kill yourself. 


Alison Leiby: What? 


Halle Kiefer: What are you talking about? 


Alison Leiby: What? I want Jigsaw to die. 


Halle Kiefer: And he says, well, what’s the last thing you said to him? Of course the last thing he said was a fight, but it was like not even that bad of a fight. Like. I’m sorry. 


Alison Leiby: He’s also a teenage boy. Like that’s the whole thing. 


Halle Kiefer: Also, he then apologized on voice message, voicemail, which is actually parents should apologize if they fly off the handle. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: And he’s like, why are we only willing to act when life is at stake? It’s like he was acting. He’s trying to have relationship with his son, like they did not set up the stakes in a way for this to make sense to me. I was like, he did call him. He does care. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, I don’t that doesn’t work for me. 


Halle Kiefer: So they had one fight. So yeah. Matthews says—


Donnie Wahlberg: You can still fix this John. 


[clip of Tobin Bell]: Yeah, but can we fix you? 


Alison Leiby: Excuse me?


Halle Kiefer: Eat shit and die. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: He says, uh, John Kramer says it wasn’t my cancer that started my work. It was the decision to end my life. So he gets diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. He tries to drive off a cliff. He survives. He has like a giant piece of metal in his torso. But he says, I survived, and I promised myself to spend the rest of my days testing the fabric of humanity. 


Alison Leiby: You’re like, that’s not for you. 


Halle Kiefer: And he says those who do not appreciate life do not deserve to live it. To which Matthew says, which I think is the better, larger point. My son, appreciates life. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: You can say this to me. If I was in that room, you took my son. You should be having this conversation with him. Like you’re telling me you took my child like, this is not a conversation that I could even respond for him if I wanted to. What do you mean? And again, that’s just sloppy. That’s sloppy—


Alison Leiby: Right it’s not like you took him.


Halle Kiefer: If you ask me. Exactly. It’s like. Oh, I took your underage son to punish you for having a fight with him. But of course, we find out it’s larger that. But even when we find out what it is, I’m not compelled by it. Eventually, Matthew storms off. He’s discombobulated, and John calls says. Don’t forget the rules if you want your son. Um. Back in the house, Daniel was trying to help and talk to Laura, who was passing out both from terror and the gas.


Alison Leiby: There’s a lot kind of of pressure. 


Halle Kiefer: And so he she lets him help her. Uh, you know, and she’s like, this can’t be it. We can’t die here. And he says, finally, this is the thing that you said, which is, okay, Amanda has been through it. We’re going to go fucking talk to Amanda. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: I’m going to work with you to survive this, this is survivor, bitch. And he says, why do you think that, um, Jigsaw picked you? You know, and she says, because I was a fucking junkie, and we see her shooting up. And I said, a stupid person made this movie. 


Alison Leiby: Because it’s like that’s not—


Halle Kiefer: Like, oh, you’re a heroin addict. And so now a serial killer gets to punish you cause you don’t appreciate life. 


Alison Leiby: No it’s a dis—


Halle Kiefer: That’s not what drug addiction is. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s it’s so infuriating where it’s like it. But it is funny. It also interesting to have a serial killer. That’s just dumb because I feel like we make a lot of serial killers— 


Alison Leiby: I know like we think they’re geniuses. 


Halle Kiefer: Did you ever think of that? And it’s like I read a fucking book about addiction, asshole. Like grow up. Um, but she says I passed the test, but then afterwards, I kind of backslid. I and we see her, she’s self-harming and she’s like and using again. And Daniel says, well, I thought you said that you you got clean after your first experience. And she says, well, I got arrested for possession, though I didn’t actually commit the crime. And she says, you should, um, ask about the cop who arrested me. 


Alison Leiby: Oh. 


Halle Kiefer: Uh. Meanwhile, Jonas interrupts them to say they found a door without a lock upstairs. Everyone’s coughing up blood by now, right? And we see the timer. We are at 54 minutes. Um, we they try to push the door open, and Amanda says if the door is stuck, it’s a trap inside.


Alison Leiby: Right. Don’t do it. Push on it more. 


Halle Kiefer: But of course, Xavier, who already is already established, is out for himself. Doesn’t give a fuck forces it open anyways? Guess what? There’s another mechanism right inside. We hear something sort of unfurl and we see there’s a steel door in the room on the other side—


Alison Leiby: I want everything to stay furled. 


Halle Kiefer: —of the room. And unfortunately, when the tether is pulled by the unfurling, a three minute timer starts and we also see the vents start to blow harder. So now the gas is filling the room, right? And then I guess in the home in general. It is a tape now for Xavier that they find in the room. And Jonas puts it in the recorder, plays it for Xavier. Alison. Of course. He’s a drug dealer. 


Alison Leiby: Sure. 


Halle Kiefer: John Kramer. They’re like to me it’s like if you they kill other serial killers. 


Alison Leiby: Right. Like there’s people who like physically abuse people who sexually abuse people who kill people who kill animals. He’s like—


Halle Kiefer: Serial rapists. He hates drug dealers and drug users in a way that’s so outsized compared to everything else. 


Alison Leiby: It’s so strange. He’s obsessed. 


Halle Kiefer: He’s. He’s I’m going to say he he’s not smart. So, um, you know, but Xavier is a piece of shit. And saying like, you do all these horrible things, you are uncaring, unfeeling, and, uh, but you’re going to feel something now because there is a key to that door. If you open that door, you are allowed to leave, and you’ll be totally fine. Can you find where it is? And they search around Alison. They move the bed. In the room there is a pit of hypodermic needles. That’s about, I would say like five feet, uh, deep, filled with needles. And of course, Jigsaw says there’s a key in the room. You can find it, but it’ll be like finding a needle in a haystack. Uh huh. You’re not. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Allowed to laugh. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay. You can’t pretend that you’re doing this for highfalutin reasons and then laugh at your own horrible jokes. Even though that’s what I do every time we record. 


Alison Leiby: Well, you know what? We’re allowed. 


Halle Kiefer: Come on. 


Alison Leiby: We’re not. Ruining people’s lives and killing them. 


Halle Kiefer: I don’t even have that many hypodermic needles. I would have to build a pit. I don’t have time for that. Um, unfortunately, Xavier, who does deserve to die for what he’s about to do, picks up Amanda because she’s a junkie, I guess, and throws her in the pit to find it. So literally throws Amanda on top of hypodermic needles. Which we of course, she gets stabbed all over her body. She’s screaming horrifically. They’re stuck in her flesh, in her hands. 


Alison Leiby: Oh my God. 


Halle Kiefer: But she starts like. Like as she’s screaming. She does start to look through them in a panicked, like, frenzied way. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Alison. She fucking finds it. 


Alison Leiby: Wow. This woman.


Halle Kiefer: And she throws it out of the pit. I know.


Alison Leiby: She should get to kill Jigsaw. 


Halle Kiefer: I completely agree. 


Alison Leiby: Like. 


Halle Kiefer: And also it’s like. Yeah, like so that that to me is like, you should. You shouldn’t have to. She survived that test. It wasn’t even her test. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: You should get to leave right then. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: There should be a trap door that opens—


Alison Leiby: Yes. She should automatically be free. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. 


Alison Leiby: And she should also get to kill Jigsaw. 


Halle Kiefer: Xavier grabs the key, goes to turn in the door. Alison, they’ve just run out of time and the door’s locked. So Xavier takes—


Alison Leiby: If I were Amanda. I’d be like. I. I don’t know. I don’t know. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: I’d be pissed as shit. 


Halle Kiefer: I’d be taking the flashlight. They do find a knife at one point. Uh, we see that earlier we saw the baseball bat with nails in it. I’d be taking whatever weapon we had going nuts on this guy. Absolutely. Uh, unfortunately, she’s lying on the ground while Daniel helps pull the needles out of her body, which is rank and disgusting. Xavier comes to, like, attack Amanda and blame her. And was like you basically didn’t do it in enough time. It’s like, what are you talking about. 


Alison Leiby: I didn’t see anybody else jumping into the needle pit. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah, both Jonas said it earlier. And now, Addison is saying like we have to work. We had to figure out the common thread and we have to work together. That’s obviously the point of this, right? Laura then steps forward and says, I also was in jail, but she didn’t say what she’s like. It doesn’t matter. I was in jail. And Daniel says, I’ve never been like, I’ve never been to jail, but you know. But he does not say who his father is. He doesn’t say, he was just brought in. I you just got to give everyone all the information. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: You might think like I haven’t been to jail. It’s like, okay, but come on. 


Alison Leiby: My dad is a cop. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: Like that’s relevant. 


Halle Kiefer: Alison, they have 30 minutes to go we see Matthews talking to Kerry and Rigg, and Kerry’s plan is. Look, Jigsaw clearly cares about his legacy, so let’s threaten that. This place is full of his blueprints, his plans, his dreams. I want you to go and start destroying them. Basically, like ripping up his blueprints in front of him. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: So Matthews comes over and starts ripping up all of his plans, which is very funny, cause they’re, like, hand drawn, like insane little like devices. [laughter] Just like something you doodle. It’s like—


Alison Leiby: Like an inventor. 


Halle Kiefer: What if I had, like, an app or what? My apparatus journal, you know, instead of a dream journal. And of course, John Kramer says, go ahead. It’s not going to save your son. Why don’t you just kill me already? And Matthews says, of course I’m not gonna do that. He says, are you sure you’re not that kind of person? You’re sure you’re not the kind of person who would, I don’t know, shoot an unarmed witness, fabricate evidence, betray his wife and, well, whose son hates him? You sure you aren’t that kind of person? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. Why is the son part of it? If those are things that, like. 


Halle Kiefer: Ours, are not to reason why. Listen there’s method to his madness. There’s also madness to his method. You know, that’s the exchange.


Alison Leiby: That’s true. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, finally, the tech team arrives. And just as they do, John Kramer says there’s a file in the desk over there. Go ahead and take a look at it. 


Halle Kiefer: And of course, Detective Kerry goes over. And opens it. And John Kramer says there’s a file on everyone who is in that room except for your son. They are all your arrests. Matthews and you planted evidence in every single case. 


Alison Leiby: Oh my God, just kill him. What are we doing with these other people? 


Halle Kiefer: She says you may not remember them, but I bet they’ll remember you. Your son is playing a game with a bunch of people who fucking hate your guts. And, boy, it’d be a shame if they discovered who he was. Alison. Who will survive already? 


Alison Leiby: Oh. 


[voice over]: Who will survive? 


Halle Kiefer: Detective Eric Matthews and his son, Daniel. 


Alison Leiby: I think that. Matthews will end up dying, but his son will survive. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay. 


Alison Leiby: And I think his partner. 


Halle Kiefer: Kerry. 


Alison Leiby: She will die. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay, great. 


Alison Leiby: And who’s left in the house? 


Halle Kiefer: We’ve got most people, so we’ve got I’m just gonna list them out. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: We got Jonas, Xavier, Addison, Laura. And we already said Daniel. Because Obi is dead. 


Alison Leiby: Is Amanda dead? 


Halle Kiefer: Amanda is still alive. So we also have Amanda. 


Alison Leiby: I think Amanda’s going to survive. I think Xavier is going to die. And I think the person who we like don’t know what they were arrested for will die. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay, great. 


Alison Leiby: Will survive. I’m sorry. Will survive. 


Halle Kiefer: Perfect. 


Alison Leiby: But the others, I think maybe. 


Halle Kiefer: Stands to reason. Stands to reason. It’s a third act we’re going to need to see a body count. 


Alison Leiby: We need some bodies. 




Halle Kiefer: Everyone is, of course, gagging on the gas. Um, they’re gagging on the gas wherever they go. [laughter] As more and more pours out of the air ducts. Xavier goes back to the first room with the safe and of course, tries to open it again. He is simply too weak to really search it, and we see the effect on everyone is kind of staggering in, you know. Alison. He goes to look at Gus’s body and he started to throw a jacket over. So he doesn’t have to look at Gus, who again had his, um, brain brains blowed out. Alison on the back of Gus’s neck, he sees a number. He realizes. As, uh, Jigsaw said, the numbers are in the back of your mind. Literally. So painfully literal. Okay. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. He’s not. He’s not as creative as he thinks he is. 


Halle Kiefer: No. And the combination? Well, you can find out. Find it over the rainbow. And what we realize is that everyone has a number in a different color on the back of their neck. Uh, a little bit of a stretch, a little sweaty, if you ask me. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, that’s a little sweaty. 


Halle Kiefer: But Jonas stumbles in. He’s also vomiting and says, what are you doing? And Xavier replies which I did think was like an interesting character, he’s like the only interesting character to me where he goes, I haven’t decided yet. I want him to be more conniving and less maniacal and less, like, completely insane. Like, an 11 from the beginning. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Agreed.


Halle Kiefer: Of course, Jonas says again, we can work together on this, but Xavier says no, I found what I was looking for. Jonas tries to argue is like, I used to be like you. It landed me in prison. Everyone was my enemy. The thing is, I have to survive this because I have actual enemies outside these walls. And if I’m not there, they’re going to go after my family. I have to get out of here. And Xavier says, oh, I don’t know what that’s like. I don’t have a family. I just have me. But I like it. So turn around and we see Xavier grab the knife. And he’s going to cut up, Jonas. Cut the number off his neck. 


Alison Leiby: Why? 


Halle Kiefer: Xavier goes to—


Alison Leiby: You don’t need the skin. 


Halle Kiefer: There’s no reason from here on out for any of this to happen. Which is so crazy. It’s like it’s just because he’s supposed to be such a bad dude. Because. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: They could all take turns looking at each other’s number and then place it ostensibly in the order of the rainbow. ROYGBIV. 


Alison Leiby: Right, right. You just look like you don’t need. 


Halle Kiefer: I know, but I guess this proves Jigsaw’s point, that some people are just evil. And that’s a. 


Alison Leiby: I mean. 


Halle Kiefer: Very sophisticated way to look at the world. I think. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Very insightful and helpful way. Some people are good and some people are bad. I think that’s actually helpful—


Alison Leiby: And it’s very clear who is who. 


Halle Kiefer: Absolutely it’s good to see how that very clear thing is played out over the course of human history. I think we could all agree on that. 


Alison Leiby: Absolutely. It’s always been so black and white and no one’s ever. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. 


Alison Leiby: Punished wrongly. 


Halle Kiefer: Xavier just attacks Jonas, and then he and Jonas starts brawling and Xavier falls face first into the corner of the safe, which was to me the most, like, painful looking moment in the movie. 


Alison Leiby: Well, that’s also like. You can trip at home and hit your coffee table like that, and it like that’s a real experience. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, unfortunately for Jonas, Xavier grabs the baseball bat we saw earlier with the nails in it and smashes it into the back of Jonas head, which I thought was the most insane thing to do was like, what if you smash the number. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Hit him in front of the head if you’re gonna hit him, but luckily smashes him and he sees he has a 16 in the back of his head. And from Gus that 16 and two. Now Xavier’s going to go find the number on everyone’s neck. And unfortunately he’s really he has very bad ideas about how to go about doing it basically. 


Alison Leiby: Like again just work together and figure it out. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. Um, unfortunately, uh, there are four other people who don’t know this is going on. We have Addison, Laura. Laura is the worse for wear. She looks horrible. She can barely stand. Daniel’s helping her walk down the hallway. And Amanda, we see Laura eventually collapses. She’s trying to seize, but when she hits the ground, she looks up and she says something from the initial recording, X marks the spot and they all look. And it’s a picture frame on the wall, but there’s a broken glass x so not again, not an X you necessarily notice every time, but she’s right. It’s an X. Addison grabs it and behind the photo is a picture of Daniel with his father, Detective Eric Matthews, who everyone else immediately recognizes as the dirty cop who had them convicted. Now all of them, like, had crimes like in their past, but specifically. And there are cops like this historically. Like this is not. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Say what you will about cops like, whatever this is, this happens all the time where he’s like, oh, these people are bad. So instead of, like, doing detective work, I’m just gonna lie and—


Alison Leiby: I’m just gonna lie so that they can get punished. And I can check this off my list. Ugh—


Halle Kiefer: And Addison then says, I can’t trust any of you. So now I’m splitting off. So we have. Now we’re down to Laura, Amanda and Daniel working together. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: Alison. Laura seizes and dies because of the gas. We never find out what she went to prison for. We don’t know why she was more susceptible, but she is dead. Leaving us with Amanda and Daniel. Who again. If you’re if you’re Daniel, Amanda’s the one you want to be with. 


Alison Leiby: 100%. 


Halle Kiefer: And Amanda says, wow, I at least we know what we have in common. And Daniel’s like, I didn’t know. And I think it’s like, fundamentally, he didn’t do these things. This isn’t like Eric Matthews himself. 


Alison Leiby: Right right.


Halle Kiefer: Is there. He’s like, I didn’t know any of this. 


Alison Leiby: Right. He’s a kid when most of these people were having evidence planted on like, yeah, he was like a baby. 


Halle Kiefer: Exactly right. Oh, that’s a great point. He was a literal child. There’s no way that he could know. 


Alison Leiby: Like a baby. Or like, maybe not even born yet for some of them. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, unfortunately, they hear Xavier, who has knife in hand calling for them, saying, hey, guys, I found a way out. You should come down, come down here and find it with me. But of course, luckily he’s so insane and has been so insane that they know. Okay, well, he’s up to something. He’s not going to suddenly offer it. He would have already left if there was an exit. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: So basically they’re all sort of creeping around the house, right? And we see Amanda separates from Daniel after this reveal. So Amanda goes into the original safe room. She sees the number on the back of Jonas neck and she realizes what’s going on. So then she goes back to find Daniel saying like, okay, so there is a code. We could actually figure this out so we can get out of here. Meanwhile, unfortunately, while he’s wandering the house, Xavier finds the photo of Eric and Daniel, and in case we didn’t get it, Alison. On the back of the photo are the words father and son. 


Alison Leiby: It’s like, got it.


Halle Kiefer: Oh. 


Alison Leiby: Oh. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, meanwhile, Matthews is watching all this on the feed. You know, and see’s that Xavier is now starting to murder people. So aside from even the traps, one of them has gone so completely off the rails that he is now just killing everybody. Um, Matthews goes over to John Kramer and says, I want to go to this place now. I want you to take me. I need to know what the fuck’s going on. And John Kramer says to him. I want to go now and tell you that your son is pissing blood right now. Matthews grabs—


Alison Leiby: Sir. 


Halle Kiefer: Grabs John Kramer’s finger, and just snaps it in half. I was like, finally. 


Alison Leiby: Good. Finally. 


Halle Kiefer: And then just starts kicking his old ass, just fucking throwing him around the room, you know? He’s coughing up blood, bleeding from his face and Jigsaw basically is like, yeah, that’s the spirit I knew I could get you to feel alive. And it’s like, but you’re terrorizing him and he’s afraid his son is going to die. Like it’s not a fair exchange. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, that’s not that’s not anything. 


Halle Kiefer: Like we get in arguments with people we love all the time. Because that’s what being human is. It doesn’t mean there’s not love there. And again, he did apologize. On the voice message for stuff like he’s doing what he can. You know, I mean, he’s a dirty cop and he should absolutely be fired for that. And um, I suppose if he was being punished, I think that’s a slightly different conversation. But his kids don’t do anything right? 


Alison Leiby: Right, right. 


Halle Kiefer: However, um, back at the house, Addison is completely gassed. She’s delusional. Gassed. Right. So she’s just kind of wandering around. She wanders into a new room we haven’t been in before and makes a rookie mistake because of all the gas there is suspended from ceiling. A glass box with a syringe full of antidote inside. She reaches up and of course, basically passes her hand through a mechanism you got to have a mechanism. 


Alison Leiby: There’s so many mechanisms and apparati.


Halle Kiefer: 100% I know it’s like this guy, if this guy were to say, call, call a cousin, befriend somebody down at the community center, like. 


Alison Leiby: Take a swimming class. 


Halle Kiefer: Get a dog. 


Alison Leiby: I don’t know. 


Halle Kiefer: Truly anything would be a better legacy than this. And when she tries to pull her arm out, the mechanism closes. So essentially there’s like a blade edge cutting her hand so she cannot pull her hand back down. And she’s trying, frankly, to grab this syringe. Alison, not only did she pull the top of the syringe off, spilling the antidote. After that, she then puts her other hand in the other parts. Now she’s trapped by both hands. I have to assume it’s the gas, because, girl. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, not thinking clearly. 


Halle Kiefer: You did this to yourself at this point. That’s on you.


Alison Leiby: Yeah, that’s on you. 


Halle Kiefer: However, Xavier comes in behind her and there’s an intimation like he’s going to rape her or do something horrible. But instead, he just looks at her number on the back of her neck and puts her hair back and leaves her there to die. He’s like, I’ll leave you here you seem to be taken care of. And so and so. Addison is left here to scream and scream. Meanwhile, Daniel and Amanda make it back to the safe room. The initial room. He finally sees Jonas is dead. He understands that Xavier’s killing people. They’re able to close the door before Xavier can get there, but Xavier has. He’s pounding on the door. He’s got to break the door closed and there’s nowhere for them to go. You know, like there’s no other exit. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: As far as they know. Meanwhile, back at Jigsaw’s lair, um, Eric Matthews pulls a gun on John Kramer and presses it to his throat and says, take me to my son. And John Kramer, sort of under his voice, says, I’ll take you, but only you. And so Eric Matthews made, I think, at a certain like, probably what you just decided to do, which is he grabs John Kramer up and he fucking makes a run for it, and he runs out that everyone’s just so shocked that he’s just basically hauling ass. With John, Jigsaw out of the building, he’s able to get to his cruiser and he’s able to start hauling ass with John Kramer in the car before the SWAT comes after him. Right. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: The SWAT team goes to follow John and Eric Matthews. However, the SWAT team is using the location that the tech team just pulled, so they’re not. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: They lose sight of them. So instead of chasing the car, which has already gone, they’re like, don’t worry, we’ll follow them. We have the location the tech team has for the streaming feed. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: And that’s important just because as we’ll see there, they are going to end up—


Alison Leiby: Two different places. 


Halle Kiefer: You know what’s going to happen. Um, meanwhile Amanda again, Amanda, Daniel trying desperately to get out of this room, Amanda notices that Jonas blood is pooling against a straight edge and realizes there is a trap door in the floor. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Unfortunately, the trap door is basically underneath the safe, so she needs Daniel to come leave the front door, which is bending as Xavier is slamming into it. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: And move the safe with her. Fortunately, they’re able to do it and they’re able to open it like a trapdoor into the floor. So they drop down, and now they are just running through the bowels of the house, trying desperately to find another door. 


Alison Leiby: Ugh. 


Halle Kiefer: Outside. Eric Matthews and John Kramer screech to a stop, and Matthews goes to leap out of his cruiser to go rescue his son. And John Kramer, who has an IV lifts the tape on his IV going into his hand, he says, you’ll need this key. You’ll need it when you get inside. And Matthews just rips it off and John Kramer groans. It’s like, fuck you, dude. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, I don’t care if that’s uncomfortable.


Halle Kiefer: Also oh you hid a key in your IV. Wooh. Like who are you impressing? Who is this for?


Alison Leiby: Right. Who’s that for?


Halle Kiefer: Who’s that for Jigsaw? 


Alison Leiby: Who’s that for?


Halle Kiefer: Matthews fortunately, he opens the back door. He runs in right as Xavier breaks into the safe room. And then see’s great. I got followed down into this trapdoor. So Eric, Xavier, Amanda and Daniel are all in the same building, right? And we see Amanda and Daniel walking through. Apparently these stinky hallways. It’s filling with gas. As Xavier runs down the steps. Everything is dark. Everything is inscrutable. Matthews is running, is yelling for his son, begging him to come out. He’s also gagging, choking on the gas, and he finds the photo of him and his son on the ground and realizes, okay, so everyone here knows that I am the cop who put them away and ruined their lives. Alison. We see the SWAT team pull up in front of a building. They leap from their van and it simultaneously, as Matthews sort of pulls his gun and makes his way through the darkened house, the SWAT team breaks down the door. And Alison. Amanda and Daniel walk through a door in the basement, and when they do, they find themselves in the bathroom from the original Saw. 


Alison Leiby: Of course. 


Halle Kiefer: And that includes the corpses of the two people who were left there. You recall those two people? 


Alison Leiby: And how long was that, like? How long ago was that? 


Halle Kiefer: Well, it wasn’t yesterday. I’ll say that much later. 


Alison Leiby: Oy. 


Halle Kiefer: I would say they look fully mummified. So at least months, if not longer. They look real bad, but they are for at least a time. Amanda and Daniel can hide there in some level of safety. Meanwhile, Matthews has gotten to the safe room, finds Gus and Jonas’ bodies, and is panicking now. It’s like, okay, so yeah, so my son could be dead right now. He runs down the basement, following all of them. Xavier finds Amanda and Daniel in the Saw bathroom, and Daniel’s kind of slumped over, and she tells him he’s gone. He’s dead. It’s just me. You don’t have to do this. And he says, I don’t care. I just need his number and yours. And Amanda points out okay but if you kill us, which I think is the best point that anyone has made, all this movie, how will you be able to read your own number? Because there are no mirrors in here. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Or reflective surfaces. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Alison, this motherfucker is so crazy. He reaches up. He just starts cutting the skin of his own neck in the same place that everyone’s number is. He cuts it off and he puts it in his pocket. At that point, I’m like, uh, you know, like. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, there’s no reasoning. 


Halle Kiefer: Jigsaw was wrong to do that. Like, it’s like that guy was too stupid to learn like you. Like you think somehow. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: The person like, it’s like that guy was never going to learn from this. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. He wasn’t going to take this and be like, wow, I have to make some change. Like. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. Just then, as Xavier advances on Amanda to cut off her own number, Daniel leaps up, still alive, and slits Xavier’s throat as Amanda screams and screams. Alison back at Jigsaw’s lair. Back at John Kramer’s lair. Sorry. Kerry is watching the feed. She can’t see the SWAT team. The SWAT team finds monitors which are playing the stream, sort of in a Thanksgiving esque way. Something is being streamed from that location. 


Alison Leiby: Okay. 


Halle Kiefer: We see Rigg reach out and press pause on what I think is a DVD player. It could also be, uh, a VHS player. Alison, they’re not simply at the wrong house. It’s the wrong time. Everything we’ve been watching already happened. It’s all a recording. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, I was going to guess that, like. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. 


Alison Leiby: It’s too late. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s too late. This is all they’ve been not been watching in real time. This already happened. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Of course Matthews doesn’t know this because he’s. He still thinks they’re there in real time. He gets to the bathroom to see there’s a figure in the bathtub, and he sees, like, a little white hand hanging out and, of course, assumes it’s his son. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: So he goes to it. Horrified, the person leaps up in a pig mask and stabs Matthews with the syringe. Mhm. Meanwhile, Kerry turns around because in John Kramer’s lair, a second safe, identical to the first safe, swings open inside and had been there the entire time. 


Alison Leiby: Oh, no. 


Halle Kiefer: Is Daniel Matthews, alive. Though obviously extremely traumatized. 


Alison Leiby: Well yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Bound up. With an oxygen tank. And he looks at them and he starts screaming and crying. I hate to say this, but Jigsaw did say that your son’s in a safe place, and that’s all was an unforgivable pun. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. That’s too. Like hm hmm. Like. Yeah. That’s really. 


Halle Kiefer: Or is that one so bad that actually I’m kind of back on board. Like, it’s like, oh, if we’re doing full on Looney Tunes puns. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Then I’m back on board. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: This is the first one. I’m like, that’s so stupid. I’m back on board. 


Alison Leiby: That it’s Interesting. 


Halle Kiefer: Interesting. However, unfortunately, back in Jigsaw’s house, in the Saw bathroom, Eric Matthews awakens in the dark. He’s illuminated by his flashlight, dropped on the ground, and next to him, Alison is a recorder and he presses play. Only this time it’s not Jigsaw’s voice, it’s Amanda. She says. After he saved my life. 


[clip of Shawnee Smith]: I found myself, my father. A leader. A teacher.


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: She says, what is the cure for cancer, Eric? The cure for cancer is the same as the cure for death itself. The answer is immortality. It’s creating a legacy. So what we find out is that Amanda credits Jigsaw with saving her life. And. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Teaching her truly the meaning of being alive so that she is essentially has become. 


Alison Leiby: No I hate this ending. 


Halle Kiefer: Essentially his minion. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: And worships him as a cult leader. She is the one who abducted Daniel and she has been helping Jigsaw this entire time. 


Alison Leiby: Oh. 


Halle Kiefer: And we flashback to all these moments, including when John Kramer says you’ll find your son in a safe place. I’m like, okay, that’s kind of funny. That’s kind of funny. 


Alison Leiby: Yep. 


Halle Kiefer: But she basically says, I am the one who will carry on John Kramer’s legacy after he dies, and I will do it in honor of him. Because to me, the way he explains, like his morality makes sense to me. And you are my first test subject. 


Alison Leiby: Girl. 


Halle Kiefer: Because when you framed me, you locked me away. You ruined my life. After I, after I had attempted, struggled to make a life for myself. You locked me away. And now here you are locked away. And we’ll see what happens. And he looks up to see Amanda closing the door and telling him, game over. Which, again, you didn’t have to say that. Just have her shut it. 


Alison Leiby: I mean, you’re really undoing the the powerful stuff that might have been in that speech. 


Halle Kiefer: And outside we see in the passenger seat. Of Eric Matthews cruiser. That John Kramer has finally died. And then the credits start and they play Forget to Remember by Mudvayne. I’m like, hell yeah, remember Mudvayne?


Alison Leiby: Rock. 


Halle Kiefer: The end Alison. Here’s what makes no sense about that argument at the end. In my mind. It’s like okay. Like, you know that this dirty cop did a bad thing, but couldn’t you make the same argument like, oh, by putting him in prison? That actually taught me a lesson. Like, then you you’ve rationalized everything, but you’re mad at him for also a bad thing, like. 


Alison Leiby: Right? 


Halle Kiefer: By that logic, every bad thing that ever happens to you is actually good because it makes you appreciate life more. You know what I mean like.


Alison Leiby: Right. Yeah. You don’t get to pick and choose which events in your life and people in your life, like fall into which buckets. Like either that’s your philosophy or it’s not. 


Halle Kiefer: Also isn’t Jigsaw essentially just the incarceration like you were he punished you for being a drug addict and now you got arrested for possession? Aren’t they doing the exact same thing where they’re punishing you for something that is a medical and sociological and psychological problem? So it’s like, what is the difference between Jigsaw and prison? Aren’t they the same thing? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, I don’t get it. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, I do think that the safe joke does redeem this movie for me. I mean, I like this movie. I just don’t like the Jigsaw himself. I’m like, girl. 


Alison Leiby: The organizing principle of Jigsaw isn’t, isn’t working for me. 


Halle Kiefer: It’s exhausting. We just need to have, like, you can have this kind of like, hubris, but you need to have a little comeuppance. You need to have the moment where he’s wrong, where somebody does do the good thing, where Daniel saves somebody like like the to set this up the entire time and then not subvert it is. 


Alison Leiby: Mm hmm yes exactly. 


Halle Kiefer: As a film, unsatisfying. That being said, did I have a, uh, fun time watching this? Yes. 


Alison Leiby: Sure. 


Halle Kiefer: But it is just funny where you’re just like, get to the end of. It’s like, well, but give me. So I want nuance. Give me, give me a serial killer with nuance. But that’s because there’s been so many serial killer things since then. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: Where maybe we’re kind of used to the idea of, like, a more nuanced serial killer where this guy’s just out, to, fucking have fun and build apparati. You know.


Alison Leiby: Right. There was no promise that Amanda would survive this, though. 


Halle Kiefer: No. I guess we’re to think that that because she is his acolyte, that is his understanding as well that he was going to. But she didn’t know, like Xavier could have killed her. Xavier—


Alison Leiby: Right. That’s what I’m saying. Like, Xavier could have. Yeah.


Halle Kiefer: Could have killed her right out the gate. And she had no reason to, but I guess she’d be okay with that on some level. Like, it would be fine in her mind to give herself her give her life for the new philosophy. You know what I mean? Long live the philosophy of Jigsaw, I suppose. And I haven’t seen the rest other than spiral. But we certainly this certainly won’t be the end of followers and lessons, uh, gleaned from John Kramer’s legacy. Um, so, Alison, what are some fatal mistakes you think people may have made in the movie? Saw II.


[voice over]: Fatal mistakes. 


Alison Leiby: Don’t be a dirty cop. That’s number one.


Halle Kiefer: Don’t be a dirty cop. 


Alison Leiby: Don’t be a dirty cop. 


Halle Kiefer: Also don’t be that surprised like you see. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: And I guess we’re to think he’s just such a dirty cop. He doesn’t recognize any one of the other seven people besides his son. I don’t know you wouldn’t I? Maybe. I mean, I guess we’re to think, like he’s such a dirtbag, but then he gets, like. Then give me a moment of seeing his dirtbag ness. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, right. Yes. I and I would have appreciated a little bit more of that because, like, instead, the whole time, I’m just, like, kind of feeling bad for him—


Halle Kiefer: Well you feel. Yeah, exactly. And, like, let the mask drop. Give us that moment of, like, I am a piece of shit. Like, uh. Yeah. Give us a little more. It’s just a character development thing again I still thought it was fun, but, you know, like, if you. It’s just those little moments would have taken this to the next level for me. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: But again, whatever. Like, I’m like, oh, this is a Saw. It’s an iconic film series. You know what you’re getting out of it. You know what I mean? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and that is not necessarily a philosophy that we’re all going to agree with. You know what I mean? 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, I would say, other than that, um. 


Alison Leiby: I mean, everybody in that, like, was trying in the house.


Halle Kiefer: Except for Xavier and again, Xavier, we should have given, like, give me a sob story. Explain to me why he’s so broken. 


Alison Leiby: Why is he a maniac? 


Halle Kiefer: Give me a moment like that something so horrible happened to him that he was. Yeah, like a villain monologue or sort of like you don’t understand. 


Alison Leiby: Something. 


Halle Kiefer: Like this thing happened to me. Now I can never trust anyone. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: And then it’s sort of like how every Stephen King movie has that character, you know, it has that someone who is on the edge, like there. And then this horrible experience brings out something in them. You know, if he’s already if he starts at an 11, where’s there to go? 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. Yeah. Right. We need to develop it more. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and again, I don’t mean to criticize this film which I actually really enjoyed, but I don’t know, it’s like almost you could feel it pressing up against the limits of what it was a little bit in a way that I thought was interesting. And. Jigsaw. What just a silly guy. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: So this isn’t gonna work is the worst way to get people to, you know, get people appreciate life, be nice to them. 


Alison Leiby: Be nice to them. 


Halle Kiefer: Give them help. Treat them. If you Amanda has a drug addiction, pay for her to go to rehab, be, um, an actual father figure. 


Alison Leiby: Treat the disease. 


Halle Kiefer: Help her, you know what I mean the idea, is like I’m going to teach you. It’s like, yes, you could have actually taught her or helped her. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Get her driver’s license back, help her write a resume like you could have genuinely just helped someone with a drug addiction rather than, I will torture you. It’s like, no, grow up. You just want to build the. It’s like, I want to do this. So I’m going to explain backwards why I’m allowed to do this. 


Alison Leiby: Yes, exactly. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, it’s kind of like when serial killers are sort of like angel of deaths, like sort of, um, you know, they kill patients, like to put them out of misery. It’s like, no, that’s obviously not what it is. Because then every nurse would do that. Like, it’s obviously you have this compulsion and you have to rationalize yourself why you’re allowed to fulfill it. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, other than that, I guess I’d be other than Xavier. Everyone was trying. Jonas was trying, you know. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: Like, everyone really gave it a go. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah. 


Halle Kiefer: And, um, again, I just don’t think that they were deserved any of that stuff that happened to them. 


Alison Leiby: No. 


Halle Kiefer: Um, and they’re. But by the grace of God, we’re all we all could be drug addicts. And I just feel like, well, you’re already dealing with that. Then suddenly you wake up and you got a bear trap on your head. 


Alison Leiby: That’s not fair. That’s not fair. 


Halle Kiefer: Come on. Um, and then finally, where would you place, uh, Saw II on the spooky scale? Alison. 


[voice over]: A spooky scare. 


Alison Leiby: Uh, it was gross. 


Halle Kiefer: Mm hmm. 


Alison Leiby: And that is a good scary twist. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah right. 


Alison Leiby: At the end. 


Halle Kiefer: Yeah. That was satisfying. To have it be her and that he died and that, like, they’re in the wrong place. And this has all been. It’s all like. I’m going to say a six. 


Halle Kiefer: Okay. Six great.


Alison Leiby: Six. Yeah. What about you? 


Halle Kiefer: Um, you know, I agree. Very satisfying twist. And I thought everyone was good in it. Like, everyone’s giving everything they can to these characters. I’ve said it before. If there’s, like, a police procedural element to thing. 


Alison Leiby: Yeah, we could have los—


Halle Kiefer: I don’t find it as scary, you know, because it’s more of a thriller. And I still enjoyed that. But. 


Alison Leiby: Right. 


Halle Kiefer: I’m gonna give it. I’m gonna give it a three. Just really, invented traps. I’ll give him that. Gorgeous gowns. Um, it just. Yeah. Uh, it I enjoyed it. I mean, Saw the original. I think that’s really, you know, I don’t think it’s just James Wan, but James Wan really set the pace, and, um. But this was definitely watchable. Is certainly better than some other sequels will have coming, coming down the pike towards you. We just also want to say we got a, uh, a very fun request that we wanted to indulge. 


Alison Leiby: Yes. 


Halle Kiefer: From someone who is in love. And that person wanted us to, uh, do something special because they’re asking their partner to be their partner. And so we wanted to say, K, P would love for you to be their partner. And as a devoted listener, what better way to hear about it than from us? 


Alison Leiby: Yes. Yes. Let us, uh, meddle in your personal life. Um, and, uh, I hope you both are very happy. And thank you for including us in, uh, your love journey. 


Halle Kiefer: I love this shit. Congratulations. I love, love, and also in general, if anyone wants us to. Any engagements? Weddings? No. No breakups. You know what I mean that’s for you—


Alison Leiby: No breakups. Positive stuff only. 


Halle Kiefer: Yes. But thank you so much for for asking us to do this. We think it was super sweet. And we hope you have a wonderful time. Um, but yeah. Alison, thank you so much for listening to another horror movie. It truly is the highlight of my week. 


Alison Leiby: I can’t believe I keep putting myself through this. [laughs]


Halle Kiefer: I know, and it’s only. It’s only because you’re only able to. Because then you immediately forget everything. And I think that’s noble. That’s noble.


Alison Leiby: It’s true. Goldfish brain is saving my saving my ability to keep moving with my life. 


Halle Kiefer: You couldn’t even remember—


Alison Leiby: And not have this ruin it. 


Halle Kiefer: You couldn’t even remember the name for life. That’s how much you’ve cleared out. All right.


Alison Leiby: Well, thank you all for joining us. And, uh, more sequels coming atcha this month. And I guess all we have to do is ask you to please, keep it spooky. 


Halle Kiefer: Please keep it spooky. 


Alison Leiby: Please. 


Halle Kiefer: Don’t forget to follow us at Ruined podcasts and Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok for show updates. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Ruined is a Radio Point and Crooked Media production, we’re your writers and hosts Halle Kiefer and Alison Leiby. This show is executive produced by Alex Bach, Sabrina Fonfeder and Houston Snyder, and recorded and edited by Kat Iossa. From Crooked Media our executive producer is Kendra James with production and promotional support from Ari Schwartz, Kyle Seglin, Julia Beach, Caroline Dunphy, and Ewa Okulate.


Alison Leiby: [AD BREAK]