The prominence of celebrity culture in politics, a historic payout to Black farmers, and wealthy Arizonians blow threw the state budget.

News

Trump says presidential civilian award is ‘better’ than top military honor whose recipients are ‘dead’ or ‘hit’ by bullets

Kerry Washington, Mindy Kaling and more will serve as DNC hosts

School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget.

Republicans scrambled to get Cornel West on the Arizona ballot. The left-wing academic is OK with it

National Black Farmers Association Calls Today A Win, Historic $2B Payout for Discrimination in Farm Lending

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TRANSCRIPT

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode it’s me, Kaya, and Myles talking about the news that you don’t know and then keeping you updated on what’s happening with the election that is coming up. It’s 70 ish days away, I think, which is so wild it feels like it felt like forever and now it’s right around the corner. I’m DeRay at @deray on Twitter. 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram. 

Kaya Henderson: I’m Kaya Henderson at @HendersonKaya on Twitter. 

DeRay Mckesson: So DNC starts Monday, so started yesterday if you’re listening, I can’t wait to see what’s happening. I don’t know if you saw, but they announced that Michelle Obama will be speaking at the convention. I’m shocked that they’ve not announced that AOC or anybody else from the squad. The remaining members of the squad are going to speak. And then obviously all the traditional people you can imagine. So the Clintons, uh obviously Biden’s talking. Kamala talks on Thursday. There are a large number of protesters that are outside of the convention center around what’s happening in Israel and Palestine. And then one of the big union guys just got announced to talk. But I wanted to know what you all what are you looking for at the DNC? Is there anybody you’re like, woo can’t wait to see? I didn’t realize, uh that the when they go low, we go high thing came from Michelle Obama at the DNC. I like obviously remember she said it. I didn’t remember that was a DNC speech. Uh. Let’s see if what she says. I hope she says fight these people [laughing] when she talks, when she talks this year. But what about y’all?

Kaya Henderson: Um. I mean, there’s always, like, somebody that I didn’t know who’s inspiring and young, and they give a platform to and so, like I, you know, think Barack Obama in 2000. I don’t know what year was that like four or somethings when when he gave his speech and sort of burst onto the national scene. So I’m always on the lookout for, like, the unknowns, the, the people who will or this is their breakout moment. But I’m also interested in how they they have to do two things at this DNC. They have to, you know, launch Kamala in her own sort of persona. Right. This is her introduction to the world in the most formal sense. Um. But they also have to thank and appreciate Joe Biden on his way out. And so I think there is a like there’s a balance that has to be struck because while we want to give him his flowers like this is her show. And so I’m interested in how they are going to accomplish both goals. 

Myles E. Johnson: You know I’m a wet blanket so I’m definitely [?]. [laughter] I’m definitely interested in how they’re going to address um what’s going on in Gaza, like, I like I think that this is a good opportunity for them to. There’s been enough brainstorming. I think the protesters are going to be there. I just think that this it just it just makes sense to say something, um a little bit more soulful about, about the um, situation than I’ve heard before. I’m just not really interested in the celebrityfication of everything. So I’m, I’m I wasn’t that excited about seeing Megan Thee Stallion. I wasn’t that excited about seeing celebrities. I want to get to a world where that kind of stuff isn’t necessary or needed, because I think it just clouds people’s intake of politics. But um, I don’t have any, I don’t know, like, like, the, the Coachella-ification of the DNC is I don’t know if I agree with that. [laugh] So, I’m not necessarily excited about anything particularly, but I’m interested in how they’re going to be addressed. I’m I’m interested in like even more. I love the plans that I’ve heard um President Harris, oh excuse me, Vice President Harris um say [?].

DeRay Mckesson: Speak it into existence. 

Myles E. Johnson: So. Right. So I’m interested in more details around that. Like um, around more policies and first day things and first year things that she’s going to do. Um. Everything that she said really got me excited. So I’m interested in that too. 

Kaya Henderson: It’s interesting Myles, like I never I never paid attention to the Democratic National Convention until I went to one in real life, um a couple of years ago. And [throat clear] it it was one I just I learned a lot, um that like, I didn’t see on TV and whatnot. And so now I’m interested. Um. I also like there are not many moments where, like, being a Democrat is fun [laughter] and, like, actually to be in a place with like, thousands upon thousands of people who are all kind of pushing in the same direction was it was the like, um motivation that I didn’t know that I needed. And so now I’m sort of excited about watching this one. Um. But I’m also interested. I mean, and I watched the whole Republican National Convention this year, which I had never done before, in part because I just wanted to see the spectacle. And so I’m now deeply interested having, like, gone down the rabbit hole with the Republicans to sort of compare and contrast and to like, figure out how the Democrats are, are sort of um marshaling and mobilizing the troops. Um I to me, it is it’s it’s an exercise in change management and movement building and whatnot. And so I’m just sort of interested from an intellectual perspective to kind of see how they carry this. 

DeRay Mckesson: I agree with you Kaya. I didn’t know anything about the DNC until I went in the the one that happened right in the heart of the protest. And then I was on the transition team for the DNC chair, Tom Perez, and that was like a whole different world. I was like, oh, this is and what is interesting about the DNC is that everybody in politics on the left is there, whether you whether they your friends, not your friends, everybody’s–

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: –in the room and you do get to just see people and make connections in a way that is harder to do. Zoom has made it a little bit easier, but I remember the pre Zoom times where people like our Superintendent Kaya Henderson, people, people like Kaya weren’t getting on zooms, you know, like mayors weren’t getting on zooms. They would be like, come to my office or nothing. And you’re like, well, this is a doozy. But Myles, to your point, one of the things that is interesting, I don’t know if you saw about the celebrification, that the DNC will have a celebrity host each night. It is uh the four celebrity hosts are Kerry Washington and Tony Goldwyn, as you remember, Fitz and um–

Kaya Henderson: Whoa. 

DeRay Mckesson: –Olivia. 

Kaya Henderson: I know Myles is going to be like, no Kaya, but I love them. [laughter]

DeRay Mckesson: And then we got uh. 

Myles E. Johnson: That is not what I’m going to do. 

DeRay Mckesson: And then Ana Navarro and Mindy Kalin Kaling are the other two hosts. I it’s so interesting to see them lean into I don’t know if you saw President Biden, uh give a salute to um. Oh, my God, what’s his name? Martin Sheen, one of the Sheen’s. 

Kaya Henderson: Oh oh oh. 

DeRay Mckesson: Who played the– 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. Who played the–

DeRay Mckesson: The president in the West Wing. 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. Martin Martin Wing. Martin Sheen is the one. Yeah. 

DeRay Mckesson: So he gives a salute to him. They’re like, on the tarmac and the right wing is like, why is the president saluting an actor? And everybody’s like, he was the president. Like, y’all don’t remember The West Wing? You’re like, did you not watch The West Wing? He was the president.

Kaya Henderson: He might have been one of the best presidents we’ve ever not had. 

DeRay Mckesson: Right. Right. So it is interesting to see them lean into the mythological White House, like with having Olivia Pope and Kerry can give the best lip quiver you’ve ever seen in American history that like that monologue straight to the camera. Nobody did it better than Kerry Washington. So it’ll be interesting to see, you know what I think about all those people is that I’m reminded that uh the words that we know them for somebody else wrote. So it’ll be interesting to see if like who is writing their content for this. But, Myles, what do you think about these four celebrities? Are you still are you excited about seeing Olivia Pope and Fitz or no? 

Myles E. Johnson: No. 

DeRay Mckesson: No. [laughter]

Myles E. Johnson: No. So shout out to shout out to Kerry Washington at first you know, there’s two Kerry’s in my head Kerry Washington and Hilson, [?] I and I said how did she how did Kerry Hilson end up at the uh DNC. But, you know, I’m always kind of just like critical in my head and just always knowing that a lot of times the mainstream media and things that we consume, uh that it’s entertainment also doubles as propaganda. And I think that there’s such a interesting way that things that are myths, things that are stories, um but have touched us, and have um become another language can also be used to kind of further a political a political agenda, whether you agree with what it is or not. And I think, uh seeing Trump do it so clumsily and so insultingly has made me be critical of anybody who participates in participates in doing it. Specifically, some people who I think can do it so sleek and so more organized, like the Democrats. So I feel even uh more of a need to have a, a foil, a tin foil hat on. Because I know [laughter] because I know that I’m being seduced by entertainment, myths and pop culture and all these things that are just in the water in America in order to entice me to vote. And what I really care about are what’s happening to the environment, how we’re impacting others as a violent imperialist regime globally and of course, around these everyday things that that as a new midwesterner that I care about, like home owning [laughter] and I and schools and roads and potholes. So.

Kaya Henderson: Wait a minute, wait a minute. 

Myles E. Johnson: I don’t, I don’t care about–

Kaya Henderson: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because–

Myles E. Johnson: –your your Schiaparelli dress Kerry Washington.

Kaya Henderson: Because wait wait wait. 

Myles E. Johnson: And your lip quiver.

Kaya Henderson: Wait wait wait. I was just getting ready to say. 

Myles E. Johnson: What are the policies? 

Kaya Henderson: I was just getting ready to say who is this new Myles? The the Myles that like the Myles who appreciates who wrote the thing on Lemonade? The Myles who is my touchstone for–

Myles E. Johnson: So here’s the thing. 

Kaya Henderson: Pop culture and–

Myles E. Johnson: So here’s the thing.

Kaya Henderson: –Celebrity and whatnot. 

Myles E. Johnson: I love that you said that because I still am that. What I was interested in, specifically in Beyonce, in that moment in Beyonce’s career, was she was taking African Black radical traditions and infiltrating the white mainstream with those traditions. I’m not interested in Black people being used to further the white mainstream agenda. That’s what I’ve become–

Kaya Henderson: So I can appreciate. I can I can appre–

Myles E. Johnson: That’s what I’ve become more critical about what’s going on. 

Kaya Henderson: I can appreciate that.

DeRay Mckesson: Tin foil hat. 

Kaya Henderson: But I but I also but I also think that and this is why I mean, you going to ask me how did I get to schools on this? But I also think that this is an important reason why school is, is very important. And here’s where I’m going. Um. For some people, they wouldn’t even engage. They will they will only engage because they see celebrities that will invite them to the party. And I’m for whatever is going to invite people to the party. Now, once you get inside, the question is, how do you critically examine all that you are experiencing? Right? For me, I can leave the B.S. aside and with a critical lens, assess what’s happening to me. Not everybody can, because with the rise of social media and the lack of critical thinking that is taught in schools, people just accept, right? People just ingest, people just consume. And so I would make the point, in fact, um one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about is where do people learn how to develop a critical lens, especially with the the onslaught of information, like information is available, before people used to filter information for us, three news channels, you know, whatever, whatever. But now, especially kids, they don’t have they don’t have a clear sense of what is true and what’s not true. They don’t know how to investigate what they’re ingesting from an informational perspective. And so I think we have to start to think about where else besides schools we train our young people, especially Black children who, you know, um are my heart and soul. Like how to how to evaluate pop culture and celebrity from a critical lens. 

Myles E. Johnson: So I will say what’s interesting now. So for me, when I was about like middle school, I think my first Bell Hooks book was around like eighth grade. I would yeah, it was like eighth grade, like my last year in middle school was my first Bell Hooks read. 

Kaya Henderson: Who gave it to you?

Myles E. Johnson: No, I found it because I was somebody gave me my um, my uncle gave me a Doctor Cress Welsing book. Which was Homophobic and Hotep and then, I that kind of lead me on Black theorists and I found about Bell Hooks because she was the only one talking about gay stuff and I was gay and, blah blah blah. Um. But what I will say is that Bell Hooks was the, was the sole person who was doing that work for me. There is um so the top streaming service right now is YouTube not Netflix. Not Hulu. 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

Myles E. Johnson: It’s YouTube. 

Kaya Henderson: Absolutely. 

Myles E. Johnson: And there are a lot of people like um, I think about, um I do think about Kimberly Foster. I think about um another one named FD Signifier. I think about Broey Deschanel, these are people who are using YouTube in order to take pop culture happenings, and not just showing people and telling people what happened, but also teaching people how to think. And that’s what Bell Hooks did. Bell Hooks, I don’t just agree with everything Bell Hooks, said or does. No, but what I will say is Bell Hooks was one of the people who taught me how to think critically through her examining those things. So that’s still happening. 

Kaya Henderson: Well. 

Myles E. Johnson: It’s just happening on– 

Kaya Henderson: My, my point is, is exactly that one school didn’t teach you that. Your uncle hipped you to something that made you curious and made you explore more. And we have to recognize that young people are learning everywhere, not just in school. They’re learning on YouTube. They’re learning from, you know, familial interactions, church, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, whatever. They like–

Myles E. Johnson: Absolutely. 

Kaya Henderson: Kids are learning all over the place. And there is great content on YouTube and not everybody knows where to go. I mean, most people, many people are consuming, not the critical stuff that is on YouTube. They don’t know where to find it. And so how do we help our young people connect with these things? 

Myles E. Johnson: I think I think what I’m saying is I’m like actually like resisting that because the numbers. So FD Sig, these aren’t um niche creators on YouTube. These are people who are coming in with millions of views either people who are reviewing Drake and reviewing popular movies and dissecting these things. Um Contrapoints is another person who I’m thinking about. So what I’m saying, but and I’m sure if you look at those demographics, the people that you would see are a lot of pre-teens or a lot of teenagers, a lot of 20 year olds. So I think younger people are savvy enough to look at for it for YouTube. But I think that critical, just like my teachers didn’t know that I was reading Bell Hooks. My mom didn’t know. My mom didn’t like that wasn’t a thing. I found that on my own. So I’m say there’s there’s these underground tunnels that the kids are going to be all right, I guess is what I’m saying, because I’m seeing that if the same kids who have the same similar thirst that I had for critical knowledge are finding it just in different sources, where I found Bell Hooks, they’re going on YouTube and they’re like, oh my goodness. And the numbers are reflecting that. I think the thing that I was saying about the DNC is once you get into the place with the celebrities, because celebrities celebrity is, above all else, it’s a class status. It’s a power status. And I always think about Eartha Kitt and how she was saying when she got into the White House, all those mothers wanted to talk about the placemats and oh my goodness, and the plants. And they want to steal kitchenware. And we’ve always got fascinated with celebrity and influenced by celebrity once we get in in close proximity to it. So once you’re in the room with Kerry Washington and Vice President Harris looks so um beautiful and she’s talking nice and all that other stuff, it’s hard to keep a critical, neutral stance in your head and not be influenced by that. And what worries, what worries me is that I think that both sides know that, and they’re both weaponizing it to get there to, to, to, to get their results. And I think the left when the left does it, I think for me I’m even more critical because that is the one party that I think I can push to be even more radical, you know? 

Kaya Henderson: Yup. 

Myles E. Johnson: So I’m like, so yeah. 

Kaya Henderson: I I just want to go back to your earlier point really quick, really quickly. Just I, I am excited that you think the kids are all right. If I thought most kids were like you, I would feel good about it. I just feel like we have a responsibility to help open up those underground tunnels so that more kids are seeing those. I want you to put the influencers on our notes so that people who are who don’t know about this are can go to YouTube–

Myles E. Johnson: If you want me to be a teacher, say that. 

Kaya Henderson: –and [?] the things.

Myles E. Johnson: Auntie Kaya. You want me to be a teacher. 

Kaya Henderson: I do. 

DeRay Mckesson: True that. 

Kaya Henderson: I do, I do. 

Myles E. Johnson: I would. 

DeRay Mckesson: I want to see what both of you think extending this conversation about the uh, about the creator economy. Is there are two things, one is that for the first time, the DNC has creator credentials. So normally, you know, like when I went to the DNC, if you had a sort of podcast or if you were big on Instagram or something like that, you would get a traditional media credential and they would sort of try and weave you in in the same way that CNN and the other places got in. Where as this year, they’ve invited a whole cadre of people who have Instagram followings, people who have Twitter followings, people who have YouTube followings, and they have a creator badge, and there’s a creator section, a whole different sort of style. The second thing that I’m interested in is, and when we look at the data, it is true that YouTube far outranks the other platforms, especially for young people. I just saw a poll of 18 to 29 year old men and YouTube blows my mind. I’m like, I didn’t. I watch YouTube for very specific things. I’m like, how to unclog the sink? I’m not on YouTube for hours. And the fact that people are is like, actually it’s surpri–, I got to like, I have to understand that better because I don’t get it. Now I say, Myles, to one of your points is that I, I think I’m with Kaya on. I don’t if the kids are all right. Because when I look at some of these creators on YouTube that I am forced to watch, the content knowledge is at a real low, but the confidence is at a real high. So they say things about politics and I’m like, well, that just was. It’s not even that I disagree with you. That just isn’t true. Right? Or the number of people that I’ve seen on TikTok be like, you know, critical of Kamala. And they are like, why is she rolling out these policies? She’s been in the White House for three years. And you’re like, well, she wasn’t the president. You know, I’m like, I’m like, we are you were actually pushing these talking points to huge crowds of people. And the content is either y’all not right. It’s not even that I’m mad about it. It’s just like factually incorrect. And I do worry about that. I think that like big platforms, but none of the sort of responsibilities of journalism is actually a loss. Like, I don’t know if that is a, that is a win for us. 

Myles E. Johnson: So I guess, like my first thought is what’s happening on YouTube is just reflecting what’s happening in the mainstream. So just like I can go on, any, MSNBC, CNN, Fox News especially, and find somebody saying wrong things. YouTube is not, yes, that will happen on YouTube too. I do think because there’s so many people doing things the same way that um uh, let’s see, the same way Twitter has, it kind of has like a built in, like irrigation process where after a while you see who I can not. What’s the what’s the Black man’s name? Lewis? Who everybody uses for news on Twitter on X? 

DeRay Mckesson: Phil. Phil.

Myles E. Johnson: Phil Lewis. 

DeRay Mckesson: Phil. 

Myles E. Johnson: I believe his name is. 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah yeah. 

Myles E. Johnson: So so so so Phil Lewis because of a consistency of truth telling and giving information and maybe also because of where he works and where his background is, is for a lot of people of trusted place on X, where there’s so many untrustworthy people, and YouTube is no different than that. So you will go on YouTube and find people who are saying some of the most incredibly ignorant, false things. You’ll see some people who are saying the most brilliant philosophical things like uh Contrapoints just, not just but released like this video that goes um in about Twilight and another one about JK Rowling. But when I tell you the places that she lands, um inside of her um, inside of that video were so brilliant and, well, fact checked. And there’s actually this type of um uh, the I like I without sounding too classist, like a sophisticated audience consuming it. And I’ve seen other people be canceled for either plagiarizing or not saying the right information. So I’ve seen all those different dynamics happen. So I think it’s just different. But I don’t think that we’re dealing with something so unique on YouTube. I just think it’s the new iteration of, of of the media, I think that that’s that’s just that’s just the state of media right now, is that some people are going to be sensationalist. Some people are going to lie, some people are going to misconstrue facts, some people are going to make up facts, some people are going to have real news, some people are going to have fake news. You know, and I think YouTube is not a special, special for that. And I do think that’s how come more people like a Kaya Henderson, like a DeRay Mckesson should be aware that YouTube is a tool that a lot of people are using and get on top of it because it’s not going to go anywhere. So it’s like if you know what the facts are, you have so many um, ideas and facts around what’s what’s going on. And you’re an expert in incarceration and police. YouTube is a tool to make sure that you can control that narrative because the narrative will happen. It’s just going to exist like X, Instagram, Facebook, Google. It’s it’s going to be another tool. So we kind of get to we get to we get to make what it of it what we will. Um. It just so happens that a lot of times people who are on the right or people who don’t care about facts and more just care about socialization or making money, tend to adapt uh first, [laugh] um when it comes to when it comes to the platform. 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come. 

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Let’s transition to, you know, one of the big critiques of Kamala was that she is not doing press conferences. And people have been like, you know, how can, you know, she’s only maintaining this popularity because she’s not doing press. And her campaign has been like, they’re doing press where it matters, which is with voters, and they are talking to voters every day. That they are, you know, she just got she just got off or is in the middle of the bus tour. Coach Walz is going to football locker rooms and talking to football players. And I don’t know if you saw that they rolled out a whole Friday Night Lights thing with him, that he’s going to go to a set of states and go to football games on Friday nights to talk to people. So they have said that they are talking to voters and that’s where they’re spending their energy. But there was a recent clip where Kamala is getting off Air Force, not one, and she is asked a question about um, Air Force not one yet is what we should call it. Uh and she, she is asked um about the child tax credit and she does give a response. And I wanted to know what you make of this idea that, like, Kamala’s running from the press, and I don’t know if you saw that Biden is getting way more spicy, you know, with the press as well, which I actually really love. So what do you all think? What what is your response to that critique of Kamala? 

Myles E. Johnson: So I do think she needs to talk to somebody. [laugh] Eventually, and I think that she knows she need to talk to somebody too. But I also think that she knows that there’s a lot of booby traps in conversation right now. And I think it’s important for the momentum to be built. And when people critique, the only reason why she has this good momentum is because she hasn’t sat down with somebody. Well, that seems good. You know, I because I think the the longer, in my opinion, from my perspective, the longer that she waits to sit down with somebody, the more solid this will be. Like she really is like, uh even that the comment with the protesters, um with uh, that happened and that kind of like switch, she’s really one talking point, one bad thing away from the wave um turning. I get wanting to have a lot of momentum before you have a sit down with somebody, but there is a need for it. You know, I think that journalists, good journalists ask questions of our leaders that make us think about things differently. That uh kind of push the the conversation forward, push our leaders forward. Um. I think dissent in in in in in in in and interrogation is good for our leaders. So I do think that it could be a really special moment for her. But I get the need to, A,  prepare and I get the need to really build a more solid foundation. Um. When it comes to the momentum that she’s been building before, she does that sit down because it does feel like she’s one talking point away from all of this momentum, just kind of like shifting or pausing. Um. Which could be annoying, but that’s kind of like the news cycle we live in right now. You know, and you don’t want to feel like you lost the election or lost the election, or did something risky because of one sound bite that could have waited. So I get the patience and and wanting to calm down. I think it’s smart. I think it’s smart. 

Kaya Henderson: Um. I was trying to think so one, right. Like, I don’t think she’s afraid of the press. I think the clip about the child tax credit shows that, like, even, you know, just kind of in impromptu, she can answer the policy questions. I think she probably is one of the most prepared folks um around. And they don’t ask Trump questions like that. They don’t ask him substantive policy questions. So I thought it was actually interesting that they asked her a real question. 

[clip of unspecified journalist] –[?] economic policies last week. 

[clip of Vice President Kamala Harris] Yeah. 

[clip of unspecified journalist] Can you explain how you’re gonna pay for those? And can you give us a sense of what other policies you want to unveil going forward?

[clip of Vice President Kamala Harris] Sure. Well, I mean, you just look at it in terms of what we are talking about, for example, around children. And the child tax credit and extending the EITC, that it’s at $6,000 for the first year of the child’s life. The return on that investment in terms of what that will do and what it will pay for, will be tremendous. We’ve seen it when we did it the first year of our administration. Reduced we reduced child poverty by over 50%. So that’s a lot of the work. And then what we’re doing in terms of the tax credits. We know that there’s a great return on investment. When we increase homeownership in America, what that means in terms of increasing the tax base, not to mention property tax base, what that does to fund schools, again, return on investment. I think it’s a mistake for any person who talks about public policy to not critically evaluate how you measure the return on investment when you are strengthening neighborhoods, strengthening communities, and in particular, the economy of those communities and investing in a broad based economy. Everybody benefits and it pays for itself in that way. 

Kaya Henderson: But I was just thinking, like her, her campaign hasn’t been it just has not followed the regular rules of campaigning. And she’s winning on that, like, the press is the one who got us into this tizzy, right? With their coverage and their, you know, preference for the bad news and the catching people and the bombast of Donald Trump and whatnot. And like, there’s a part of me that thinks maybe she’s like, look, I’m not going to play on your your terms. I’m gonna play on my terms. I’m going straight to the people. I’ll come to you when I’m ready for you it’s, you know, Myles, you talked about it earlier. She’s Beyonce. I’m gonna do this the way I want to do it, not the way you think I should do it. And so there’s a part of me that wants to believe that uh, I hope this is true, that she’s like, no, I’ll sit down when I want to sit down. I’m not afraid of a bad soundbite or whatever, whatever. Because at this point, I don’t think one one bad soundbite is going to crush the momentum. Like she’s all we got. So we going to keep momentuming. Um. [laugh] But but I I want to I hope that this is an empowerment move to redefine the the playing field. Right. She is the she’s the person who everybody wants to talk to. And she gets to decide when and how she wants to communicate. And she’s saying, right now I’m going to the people and people like that. And I think she and she’ll go on a debate stage and she’ll sit down and talk to people whenever she decides to, I I think that could be an opportunity to shift the power of the press, who right now makes or breaks everybody. And she’s got a thing going with zoom calls and rallies and whatnot. And I’d lean into that, too. 

DeRay Mckesson: I think also that she’s um, she’s not the nominee. She hasn’t accepted the nomination yet. She accepts it on Thursday. So I’m interested to see what the press and com strategy looks like after that. And she knows that there’s no shortage of people who will be ready to talk to her. They’ll be she could go anywhere she wants to have a conversation. Oprah, like whatever she wants to do that, they’ll be ready to talk to her. And I’m actually jazzed about that. And Trump, I don’t know if you saw the Trump Medal of Freedom comments. Did you see the–

Kaya Henderson: Oh my Gosh. 

DeRay Mckesson: Did you what he–

Kaya Henderson: What a train wreck. 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, he said, let me Myles, did you see it at all? 

Myles E. Johnson: Mm mm. 

DeRay Mckesson: So the medal of um so there are two big medals. There’s the Medal of Freedom, which is the medal that civilians get who the president um honors. And then there’s a medal of honor, which you get because you’ve done something heroic in the armed services, like in the military in the military. Um. And there’s a billionaire who essentially paid for a medal of freedom. She’s a big donor. Her name is Miriam Adelson. And she gives she gets like she gets it. I don’t know why he even is talking about this last week, but he does at an event, actually, that was about anti-Semitism. But he talks about Miriam Adelson getting the Medal of Freedom and what he says is, and I’ll quote, “that’s the highest award you can get as a civilian. It’s the equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor. But civilian version. It’s actually much better because everyone who gets the Congressional Medal of Honor, that’s soldiers. They’re either in very bad shape because they’ve been hit so many times by bullets or they’re dead. She gets it, and she’s a healthy, beautiful woman,” Trump said with a chuckle, eliciting applause from the crowd. And they’re rated equal. Now. 

Kaya Henderson: Her husband is her husband is Sheldon Adelson, who is the big casino mogul. And he was Trump’s largest donor in 2016 just for context. 

DeRay Mckesson: He got the veterans mad about it. They and I’m with them. I’m mad I’m like, these people all, to get the medal of honor. You are like, you barely survived. And some people didn’t, you know, like they are getting it awarded um afterwards. And to suggest that that is the same as this megadonor. I’m like Trump, this is I’m happy the veterans are holding you to the fire on this one. 

Myles E. Johnson: That’s such an insane thing to to to say and and to Kaya’s point earlier. I think one of the reason why. And I’m and I don’t want this to sound like an excuse for Trump’s like actions at all because like I like obviously like have a deep disdain for him. But it’s he’s so insane. [laugh] It’s like what you want. You can’t even do the policy talk. You can’t even do uh any regular talk because he’s he’s just he’s just so he’s just so insane. And I’m not  you know, I have no degrees in anything when it comes to uh the medical or psychiatric world, but I but I [laugh] but I want to diagnose him with, diagnose him with several things. And I think it’s hard to even take him, like, seriously, even though he’s a serious threat, which I think is such an interesting space to be in, where somebody is a serious threat who’s also a like joke on the personality level. You know, all of our other threats have at least felt um, you know. Just better, better, better written you know, Nixon was a was, was was was a crook. But he came off as a serious man and a credible threat. This one is just it’s like a where do you even go in in trying to do things? He’s just kind of like laughing in people’s face about this stuff. Like it’s it’s like he’s laughing in the veteran’s faces. He’s laughing in the face of these these um honor these um, the people who have been honored he’s laughing in the in the face of these things that have become like symbolic in, in, in, in America and he’s just like, kind of making a joke, like a joke about it. And like, where do you even start with somebody who seems that to me really, really fresh off the like, fresh, fresh, fresh, hot take. It seems as though Trump hates America. It seems as though like he does not like America. Like it seems like as though he thinks it’s a joke. He and doe– and he short of burning an American flag or peeing on some type of like presidential gravesite or something. Like he just does stuff that really shows a deep disrespect and hatred for America that used to not be associated with um conservatism. It’s odd to witness. 

DeRay Mckesson: The last thing I wanted to say that was about sort of the election or or politics in this way was about Cornel West. So I don’t know if you saw that Cornel is having a hard time getting on the ballot in some places because the documents weren’t turned in on the right time or they weren’t notarized. So he’s not on the ballot in some places. But recently, uh the most interesting thing that happened is that in Arizona, he is not they like didn’t turn in everything right. And he might get kicked off the ballot in Arizona or like, might not make it on the ballot. And the Republican lawyers are scrambling to make sure that he’s on the ballot. And I was that was not what I thought it was going to be. So I, I’m bringing it here because I was surprised by it, honestly. Um. And I didn’t think that he would allow himself to be sort of used in this way or like or participate in it, maybe not used is the right language, but I was legitimately surprised by this. So I thought I’d bring it here to see what you guys, what you all were thinking. 

Kaya Henderson: I mean, I’m not surprised that they would try to get um a candidate who might take away some votes from the Democrats on to the ballot. Right. That’s not surprising to me. Um. But, something that I saw basically said that they want him on the ballot and are leaning on the impropriety of the, of the process of him getting on the ballot to ultimately come back and say, see, these ballots are invalid because his campaign didn’t do the things the right way. And so that is sinister and tricky. And that is uh, that feels more Republican strategic to me then just we want a third party, a third candidate who is not likely to really take away many votes. Like, I actually think that the the intent is much more dubious than just that. 

Myles E. Johnson: I would just hope that somebody like Doctor Cornel West would look at this situation and think critically. You know, if if I’m in any situation in trying to do anything and a whole bunch of Republicans in 2024 are trying to help me do it, I would sit down, got to go to my, um what did T.D. Jakes call it? My war room. Where I talk to God and reevaluate. Should I be doing this? Because people who have the very things that you’ve written and spoke about and and and activated others around, there are people who are who, who, who, who oppose your radicalness who are trying to help you. And to me, that would be a hint that maybe what I’m doing or pursuing is being utilized for uh objectives that go against my moral and intellectual codes. I don’t I don’t know the, the, the entire psyche of somebody who decides to run for president. I do think there’s like a consistent thing around having to have some level of um big ego and maybe even narcissism to be able to do it. But I would just hope that you’d be able to get yourself out of that to see, hey, I’m being weaponized against the very people who I’m saying I need to help, and I and I’m a doctor Cornel West uh supporter. I think that he I, I, I a lot of people think that what he said around uh Barack Obama was crazy. I didn’t. I still don’t, um I think that he was early around a lot of his critiques around Obama. I think a lot of people on the left are using what he said ten, 15 years ago as regular uh talking points now for critiques of the for Obama and imperialism. And I think that he was really early so it it just I say all this to say is I’m not coming this is not me saying something as somebody who just doesn’t believe in Doctor Cornel West. It’s just I’m very confused at what he’s this era of him. And I’ve usually understood, even if I didn’t agree with every other era of him, I’m like, oh, I see why you did that critique of Barack Obama. I see why you said this about this person, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Um. I don’t get this. I don’t get it. Just just stop. 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming. 

[AD BREAK]

Kaya Henderson: Speaking of Arizona, my news this week comes from Arizona. And um it’s an article from ProPublica with an alarming story about the Arizona school voucher program. The title of the article says it all. School vouchers were supposed to save taxpayer money. Instead, they blew a massive hole in Arizona’s budget. Now, if you are a regular listener to the podcast, you’ll remember that last November, I reported on a public the Republican push for ESAs and voucher programs, educational savings accounts, and voucher programs that provide public money to taxpayers for whatever educational services they deem important for their children. Um I talked about how this playbook was spreading across lots of states that in the last couple of years, um in the last two or three years, 22 states now have ESA and voucher legislation, mostly Republican led states. And I tried to warn that this was going to be a huge problem. Well, what happened in Arizona, um is instructive for the nation. It is the model voucher program on which lots of other states programs are based, and it is the largest it’s uh the largest school voucher program, not just in the country, but in the history of education. Um. So just a reminder, the law provides that any parent in the state, no matter how um poor or affluent, can get a voucher worth up to tens of thousands of dollars to spend on private school tuition, extracurricular programs, or home schooling supplies. The parent decides what those things are going to be without any governmental guidelines or interventions or anything like that. Um. And as a result, um this year, Arizona faced a $1.4 billion budget shortfall, mostly because of the new voucher spending. Well, originally the plan was supposed to save the taxpayers money by having parents spend less than the public school system would be spending um to support their kids education. But the initial estimates for how much it would cost were $65 million. The actuals were $332 million, and with another $429 million expected this year. So how does Arizona deal with the budget shortfall? Well, they make cuts in critical services. So there will be $333 million in cuts to water infrastructure projects. And if you know anything about Arizona, if you’ve read anything about Arizona, water scarcity is an issue that is defining the future of the state. But we’re going to cut $333 million from water infrastructure projects so that people keep can pay, have the state pay for their kids to go to private school. Um. There are tens of millions of dollars in cuts for highway expansion and repairs. This is problematic because the Phoenix area is one of the largest, Arizona’s one of the fastest growing states in America. The Phoenix area and its suburbs seeing incredible congestion. And there’s the need for traffic and transit abatement. And they’re going to cut tens of millions from highway expansions and repairs. They are going to cut, DeRay, improvements in air conditioning in state prisons, um where the temperatures soar over 100 degrees routinely um for the prisoners. And community colleges will see their budgets cut by $54 million. Um. When asked what the governor thinks about this, he says he has no regrets. Governor Doug Ducey, he has no regrets. And he considers it his finest achievement and a legacy accomplishment, in part because 11 other states have followed their model. And increasingly, um other states continue to follow this model. Um. And so it is, you know, it’s alarming. The real deal is only a small amount of the spending is going towards poor children. The vast majority of the money is being used by wealthy families to pay for private school tuition and home schooling stuff. And I just want to sorry. Give me one second, because I want to give you a little bit of a taste of some of the things that they are using this money to pay for. They can pay not just for private school tuition, but also in recreational programs for their kids, like ninja warrior training. Trampoline park outings. Ski passes. Toys and other home goods that they say are needed for homeschool purposes. Pools. All kinds of things. And the average award is about $7,000. So imagine that a wealthy family can get seven to $10,000 a year to pay tuition or to pay for Ninja Warrior training. And all of this is coming from public schools, water infrastructure, prisons, everywhere else. Um. Combine that with a tax cut for the wealthy, which means now the wealthy only pay, I think 2.5% in state taxes, but they pay the same as poor people pay. And that meant that there is a significant drop in revenue in Arizona. And how do we make sense of this? How do we make sense of, as Arizonans, the people who are bearing the brunt of this, of these legislative um changes are Arizonans who mostly don’t have school aged children. And we are watching states across the country replicate this. So I brought it to the podcast, in part because I wanted to say, I told you so. I’m petty like that, and I’m telling you that this is going to happen over and over and over again. As long as we continue to allow this national push for ESA and vouchers without any guidelines or regulations. I’m not saying that, you know, the ESAs and vouchers can’t be good. In fact, at the beginning of the experiment in Arizona, it was only used for students with disabilities, Native American and Indigenous students. Students who were at risk were the only people eligible for vouchers. And then because that was going well, they blew it up and just gave it to everybody. And who benefits most is the wealthiest people. So I brought it to the podcast because, um I will continue to ring the alarm bell about this. It’s only going to get worse. Arizona was the first. There are lots of people coming behind them, and I think we’re going to continue to see these kinds of massive trade offs where we sacrifice poor people and the regular needs of the state to fund these kinds of programs. I didn’t say a word about it being educationally sound, did I? Did we talk about the kids learning more? Nope. That’s not even part of the thing. Okay, sorry I’m done. 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s what I was going to say Kaya. What is so interesting about it is that this is the party that is like work requirements if you get $10 a month in food stamps and they are pinching pennies for people in poverty to get a meal, and then the voucher program, no educational standards, no oversight. You can send your kid anywhere. Nobody’s checking in. Can they read better? Can they not read better? Are they treating your kid right? Is it racist? Isn’t it like literally it is a it is a standard list operation and that’s just okay. And you’re like, yo, this is it is sort of wild. I do think that the voucher people have, have done really well on the narrative of like, choice. And da da da da da. So there are even communities of color where I’m like, you don’t actually support this. Like this is a this is a bad thing for you. But people are like, well, I’m gonna get money to send my kid to a and yeah, yes, [?] you’re sending your kid to a place, you think that public school is not good? We don’t even know what’s going on in that school. Like, literally. No stan– like they just hiring anybody. Nobody can read. So I’m happy you brought this here because it is it is interesting policy. And, you know, the thing about the right is that they are unashamed about it. They are like, well bankrupt all services to help poor people to give, to have the government subsidize what we want to do. And it’s like that is actually a wild thing to just watch. 

Myles E. Johnson: And that was as as Kaya was talking, I was thinking about um, why would Doug Ducey like, so so lie about this? And it made me think. I put in the group chat, but it made me think about how the House Republicans um want to eliminate public education. Like so this is– 

Kaya Henderson: That’s what the play is. Myles, this is the that is exactly the play. 

Myles E. Johnson: Right? So this is a this is a state demonstration of what they want to be like a national federal law. And that’s how come he’s he’s he’s he’s approving of it. That’s how come he’s pretending that this was um okay. And, and a success because their goal is to eliminate public education in America and leave the poor people, the disenfranchised people, um even more vulnerable, and make sure that there’s so much padding around the richest and most privileged people in this country. And it’s and it’s, it’s, it’s it’s sad to see it happen right in front of our faces. 

Kaya Henderson: Not just destroy public education, but use taxpayer money to fund the private schools that they want for their own kids. Right. And so I think back to segregation academies, which at least if you want your kid to go to a segregation academy and you pay for it, that’s your business. What I’m not gonna do is have my taxpayer money go to you raising, you know, the next generation of separatists, right. And so I feel like if every I believe in choice and you should choose whatever you want for your kid. I don’t believe that the government should fund those choices without any oversight and without any and that is the play that is happening. If if they can loosen this up now, even it doesn’t matter what happens, because they have government funding to be able to do the things that they want to do. And that is the most offensive thing to me, period. The end. 

Myles E. Johnson: Because the idea is, and I’m and I’m, I’m, I’m truly asking um both of you this because the idea is if you are not born in this privileged class, then you should learn carpentry? Like is it like just like I’m I’m being I’m kind of but I’m kind of being serious. Like, the idea is we always are going to need workers and people to exploit. So we want to make sure that there’s not a way to mobilize and move and have any mobility throughout class. And education is a great way to make sure that somebody who has people who are maids and carpenters for parents becomes that themselves, and education was stopping that for us. That’s what it seems like to me. But I wasn’t a superintendent of nowhere but my own. [laughing] But my own bedroom and house, and apartment.

Kaya Henderson: I mean, there is also the like idea of an uninformed public is a controllable public right, which is also why there is the attempts at the cult– the the bans of books and the, you know, not teaching accurate history. Um. And so, I mean, it all cycles back to critical thinking. If you are not able to think critically, if you’re not able to critique, then basically you’re sheep and you can be controlled. 

DeRay Mckesson: And I think even in more even in like a more basic way, I think they just don’t care. Myles what happened. They’re sort of like whatever you get, the poor kid, the Black kid, just like take the scraps. Like whatever you get should be fine for you because you’re not worth–

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

DeRay Mckesson: –the investment anyway. Like you [?]–

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

DeRay Mckesson: Like carpenter or just person hanging out in the street. You’re not worth the investment. 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

DeRay Mckesson: And I do worry that people you know think that everything’s a conspiracy and it’s like y’all they are playing in your face. It’s not even a conspiracy. They ain’t hiding their hands. It’s just straight up. It is what it is. 

Myles E. Johnson: So I come bearing more good news. That’s that, that’s that’s my that’s my new thing. Um. This news is coming from PR Newswire. The National Black Farmers Association, also known as the NBFA, has championed a major victory of African-American farmers and their families in the United States. After years of protests, lawsuits and failed bills. The organization, led by President John Boyd, has successfully secure a $2.2 billion payout for discrimination in farm lending from the United States Department of Agriculture. The historic payout comes as a result of the Inflation Reduction Act, section 22007, signed into law by President Biden nearly two years ago. Approximately 43,000 farmers will each receive payouts of about $500,000, with the average award being $82,000. These funds are meant to provide financial assistance to farmers who have experienced racial and other forms of discrimination from the USDA prior to 2021. This victory marks a significant step towards justice for Black farmers, who have long been fighting against systemic discrimination in farming industry. The NBFA, founded by John Boyd 40 years ago, has been at the forefront of this fight and has led the way in advocating for change. So I love this news because I’m obviously I am a future Black farmer. I think everybody can see it, I think [?] [laughter] going that way. Um. I, I’m getting more and more rural and and and southern and midwestern as the years go. But also–

Kaya Henderson: How long have you wait, wait, how long have you been in the Midwest now? Like two weeks? Three weeks? 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay, so the thing about time is it constructs. [laughter and clapping] So my spirit– 

DeRay Mckesson: Get out. 

Myles E. Johnson: –has been in the my spirit has lived in the Midwest for an eternity. And now finally reality and my spirit have caught up. And now, yes, for about two weeks, I’ve been a Midwesterner. Oh, my goodness. You hating liberal elite. No. [laugh]

Kaya Henderson: I love I am. I’m a coastal liberal elite. 

DeRay Mckesson: Not you hating liberal elite. That’s great.

Myles E. Johnson: I I reckon, um no, but but but in all seriousness, I do think that there are certain um industries, certain jobs that don’t get as much recognition. And I think certain times when we think about farmers and of course, there’s this this mid, this um, this weaponized uh Midwestern, middle class, working middle class farmer, working people we always think white people. And I thought this story also illustrates that there are so many Black people who are in this industry. There are so many Black people who need support. And there are there’s still white supremacy. There’s still white supremacy manifest in these industries. Um. Or this this bill, and this, and this lawsuit would never have to um, have to have happened. My other idea around this too, is as much as I joke about it and as much as I walk with me. I do think that we’re going to see a lot more black people who are interacting with these industries if the economy keeps trending how it’s trending. If rents in places like DC and New York, and California, and places where people like me who are queer and Black are being forced out because of high rents, low and and and wages that are um uh just just staying the same, I think we’re going to see a whole lot of people who say, oh, I want to be able to do this. I want to be able to do something different. Maybe there’s a industry that’s part of your family legacy that you thought you were going to run away from and or leave, and now you’re thinking, it doesn’t sound like a bad like a bad idea. I do think that this fight for equality, even though it feels like it doesn’t um uh touch uh Black folks, A, it does. And I still think that when you see more millennials turning 40s and 50s and 60s, and when you see more Gen Z get older, I’m really I I I have a hunch that these laws and these activations are going to be a lot more um important to to more of us. It’s not going to feel as niche or as small as it does now. So I wanted to bring this news because, A,  we have wins, you know, and this is a win that President Biden allowed, which I think and helped, which I think also is a great talking point. And as we’re talking about what has, you know, this president done for Black people, I think this is a great, great, great thing to bring up because it’s not just um these kind of stereotypes that we hear about Black people, and sometimes it can go it can just kind of get stuck inside of crime. Sometimes it can get stuck inside of um incarceration and and these things that need immediate attention. And I thought this was such a refreshing win and victory for us, because not only did it show that again, we won, we’re victorious, but also we’re in these industries that we’ve honestly in the na– in the public narrative have been pushed out of. And this to me felt like a great thing to bring to the podcast, a great thing to think about and, and to support other people on. Even if you have, even if you’re never going to plant anything in your whole life. Or you’re never or you feel like you’re never going to interact with those things. I think it’s so um necessary to know what we’re what we’re as Black people all going through nationally. 

Kaya Henderson: Um. I feel like the historian of the group. But this was important, Myles, because um in 2021, in like March of 2021, we talked about how Black farmers were getting the shaft um from the federal government, the disparate treatment between white farmers and Black farmers and how subsidies that were meant for all farmers were only going to white farmers. And so this is a correction of that, and it still does not pay for the years and years of the subsidizing of white farms and the dismantling of the Black farming industry. I don’t remember what the numbers were, but when we talked about it before, you know, there were, you know, X number of of Black farms, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. And now that number has dwindled um significantly. And so, one, it is important to remember that there always have been Black farmers, in fact, little known fact, during Reconstruction, Black people owned 20% of the farmland in the United States, not sharecropped. Owned 20% of the farmland in the United States. And you’re absolutely right. We’ve also covered lots of people who are buying, you know, acreage in in many, in many, many southern states in fact. Black people buying farms, buying parcels of land to create their own communities, um taking control of the production of food because this thing ain’t working for people no more. And so I think that um it is what’s beautiful to me is while some people think that this is new for us, you know, we we, we came here with agricultural intellect that other people did not have. Right. Um. 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

Kaya Henderson: There is a reason why we were in charge of, now we didn’t get paid for it, but we were in charge of creating the agricultural base of this country. Cotton, rice, sugar cane, like this country was built from an agricultural base. And we were the people who had the technology and the know how to build this. And so in some respects, it is a beautiful reclamation of our history and our culture to see people, you know, turning to farming and to see, you know, us fighting for our right to be in a space that we’ve occupied forever. So thank you for bringing this Myles. This was inspiring. And, you know, JD Vance says something like, this is this is um discriminatory or something something. And I was like, bruh, just zip it. Like, because if you if you did a an iotas worth of research, like you just wouldn’t be saying anything about this. So. Yeah. Sorry. 

DeRay Mckesson: Cool. The only thing I have to say is, I hope that this is a model for how they can continue to do restorative and repair work for communities of color. As you know, the federal government makes it very hard to do race based corrections. So I was actually impressed with this because they were able to do it in a way that had the impact that we wanted and got around the rules of actually correcting for race explicitly. So shout out to the administration, and I hope that this is one of many. 

Myles E. Johnson: And just to wrap up, because Auntie Kaya always has me thinking about this. And I found this on the um [?]. And there is a list of Black folks and our, uh our innovations in agriculture. It names Henry Blair, George Washington Carver of course, Frederick McKinley Jones. Um. That’s a really good article that just talks about different Black people and our innovations when it comes to the technology um around agriculture. And I think that sometimes specifically because Black folks have been uh forced into inner cities or urban areas, and now urban is actually synonymous with Black. Sometimes I feel like we could be divorced, that we are people of the land. 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

Myles E. Johnson: And that we’re a people who have been masters of the land. 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

Myles E. Johnson: And it’s a place that we can definitely um go back to and feel confidence in continuing that legacy. And I think knowing that, no you’re not even the you’re not even the one millionth Black person who’s a genius at this and and we can definitely um uh take back this narrative and and and take back this land [laugh] that belongs to us. 

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning into Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson.