In This Episode
It’s that time of year when Leah, Melissa, and Kate put on their influencer hats and recommend the things that made their days a little brighter in 2025. This year, they’re joined by two special guests: rockstar Strict Scrutiny intern Jordan Thomas to share some of his picks, and former Chair of the Federal Election Commission Ellen Weintraub to discuss two of democracy’s favorite things—independent agencies and the regulation of money in politics.
Favorite things:
- WANT
- NEED
- Leah: Peloton stretching classes, Farmhounds dog treats; Badlands Ranch dog food
- Kate: custom bobbleheads & action figures, Lilly Allen’s tour, Strict Scrutiny’s upcoming West Coast tour
- Melissa: Caddis readers, Blackwing Matte pencils, As Ever Rosé
- Jordan: 2026 Evanescence and Korn tours, these headphones
- WEAR
- READ
- Leah: The Wedding People, Alison Espach; Julie Anne Long’s Pennyroyal Green series; Lisa Kleypas’ Wallflowers series; These Summer Storms, Sarah MacLean; Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil, V. E. Schwab; The God of the Woods, Liz Moore; Book of the Month
- Kate: The Power Broker, Robert Caro; Who Is Government? Michael Lewis; Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter, Kate Conger & Ryan Mac; The Radical Fund, John Fabian Witt; Isola, Allegra Goodman; Heart the Lover, Lily King; Martyr! Kaveh Akbar; The History of Sound, Ben Shattuck
- Melissa: Matriarch, Tina Knowles; Black in Blues: How a Color Tells the Story of My People, Imani Perry; Jane Austen’s Bookshelf, Rebecca Romney; Atmosphere, Taylor Jenkins Reid; The Book Club for Troublesome Women, Marie Bostwick; The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny, Kiran Desai
- Jordan: Lawless, Leah Litman; The Sirens’ Call, Chris Hayes; Bad Law, Elie Mystal; Charles Sumner: Conscience of a Nation, Zaakir Tameez; Just Shine! How to Be a Better You, Sonia Sotomayor
- Ellen: Deanna Raybourn’s Veronica Speedwell Mysteries; Everyone in My Family Has Killed Someone, Benjamin Stevenson; The Black Wolf, Louise Penny; Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent, Judi Dench; This Is Happiness, Niall Williams; Elizabeth Strout; Amor Towles
Get tickets for STRICT SCRUTINY LIVE – The Bad Decisions Tour 2026!
- 3/6/26 – San Francisco
- 3/7/26 – Los Angeles
Learn more: http://crooked.com/events
Buy Leah’s book, Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes
Follow us on Instagram, Threads, and Bluesky
TRANSCRIPT
Melissa Murray [AD]
Show Intro Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the court. It’s an old joke, but when a man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they’re going to have the last word. She spoke, not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.
Kate Shaw Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We are your hosts. I’m Kate Shaw.
Leah Litman I’m Leah Litman.
Melissa Murray And I’m Melissa Murray. And it’s that time of the year again. Here at Strict Scrutiny, we have many traditions. One of them is talking about Sam Alito’s skin and his purported skincare regime. Another is talking About Brett Kavanaugh’s intellect. And another is just generally calling the court out on its BS. But another tradition, which we always do in the festive season. Is our favorite things episode. It’s just like Oprah’s favorite things only with lawless courts. It’s a.
Kate Shaw Amazing. So if that sounds confusing, here is how it works. We just kind of go around with some gift giving and gift soliciting ideas. And then we also touch on a few of our other favorite things with kind of random banter. Some of it, but not all of it SCOTUS related in the mix.
Leah Litman And today we are delighted to be joined by a special guest, someone who is usually behind the microphone slash scenes, not in front of one. That’s right, it is our fantastic intern, Jordan Thomas. Welcome to the show, Jordan.
Jordan Thomas Thank you for having me. This is super cool. Love to finally be able to contribute in a way that’s not just behind the scenes. This is really wonderful.
Melissa Murray Well, you’ve been contributing a lot behind the scenes. Jordan is truly the gift who keeps on giving. He’s responsible.
Kate Shaw He’s here because he is one of our favorite things.
Leah Litman Exactly. Exactly.
Melissa Murray He’s literally one of our favorite things. Yes.
Leah Litman So you can all follow along. The general categories that we talk about in the episode are something you want, something you need, something to wear, and something to read. Do want to note that this last category presumes you can read, Brett. So I’m not sure if we have any picture books to recommend.
Melissa Murray Just Pride Puppy.
Kate Shaw That is not on, I mean, maybe it should be, it was maligned in the oral argument in Mahmoud, but it’s a perfectly lovely book. Okay, we will then do a little bit of chitchatting about the last year and the next one. And for our final segment, we’re going to be joined by returning guest and friend of the show Ellen Weintraub, a former commissioner on the Federal Election Commission.
Leah Litman Because some of our favorite things are what? Separation of powers, agency independence, and campaign finance regulation.
Kate Shaw And our favorite things, our least favorite things are what the court is going to do to all of those ideas.
Leah Litman Exactly. So let’s start with something you want. I’ll go first. This is something I have, but you all should want. The Cozy Earth Cuddle Bubble Blanket. It is surreal. It’s like this waffle texture that’s super soft. My dog and I fight over it. Like seriously, Cozy Earth, if you’re listening, Stevie should be a model for you. I have so many photos of her wrapped in this blanket. We are all obsessed.
Kate Shaw It’s a little heavy, you haven’t said this, it has like almost a weighted quality to it.
Leah Litman Right, no, that’s part of the waffle thing that I meant to convey. No, it’s slightly heavier than your average blanket, but still soft. It’s just excellent. And something else. So Jones Road, I know their most famous product is the Miracle Balm. I love their tinted moisturizer. It’s the only tinted moisturizer that feels more like moisturizer and less foundation to me and isn’t oily, and I just love it.
Kate Shaw So I’m also going to mention a couple of things that I have and that you might need. Okay. The first is an electric scooter. So think Vespa, but kind of off-brand. So there are now some Vespo competitors and one of them is Aventura. And I don’t mean to disparage it by calling it off- brand. It’s just not a, you know, like Vespas, a pretty famous Italian company. So Aventur is an American company. They’re making these electric scooters that look just like Vespas. Like if you kind of like squint, but the basic outline is the same. It is. Fully electric so there is a big square battery that you just bring into your house and plug into a wall so you don’t have to like go to a separate charging station and it’s not a hybrid it’s like purely electric and the price point is for a scooter like way way way way less than a Vespa um some of them are like under two or three thousand dollars and this is like a you know baby motorcycle this is a thing that will transport you all around New York City where I live and it is actually amazing if you live in a where you need to go like a mile or two or three. With stuff, so you can’t like walk fast or jog necessarily comfortably. And there just are not necessarily subway stations between point A and point B. I transport my older children to the bus and subway stops on the scooter. And it’s just kind of an amazing way to get around New York City. So wanted to shout out that company, which has been great so far. And then very different is I was at my book club recently and like for some reason somebody asked for people’s recommendations about the supplements they were taking and there was a lot of. Endorsement of grunts or grunts, I don’t even know how you say it, like superfood vitamins, which are these like little gummy bearer packets with like nine gummy bears that you’re supposed to take every day. So you get to eat a lot of vitamins in the form of gummy bears daily. I’m not totally sure like I feel any health effects yet, but they’re pretty delicious and it’s kind of awesome to be taking gummy bears for quasi medicinal purposes. So those might be something that you need to are either of you into the superfood like grunts vitamins yet? Leah, Melissa, Jordan, I assume you are not.
Melissa Murray You made me take some on the road to… Oh yeah, I gave you a pack on the Amtrak. What’d you think? And then remember I had an amazing headache and was just like really totally effed up before our show. Do you remember that? I think that I… I remember you being effed-up.
Melissa Murray I don’t know. Should I try again? I mean, I don’t want to, I want to have.
Melissa Murray I think I, well, I mean, Leah, she pushed them on me so hard. I thought like she was like it was Molly or something.
Leah Litman It was vitamins, Melissa. This sounds like Katie Heron’s entry in the Byrne book for Mrs.
Melissa Murray She was a poster. I’m just saying.
Leah Litman Just saying. She’s a pusher.
Melissa Murray All right, you’re not ready to endorse. I share them with our listeners. I’m going to try again in 2026. I’m gonna get my microbiome in check with your grunts. Sounds good. I’m to get them. Yeah. Okay. All right. I am going to plus one the Cozy Earth bubble blanket. I think Cozy earth that you need to have Cole and Stevie together in a beach poo golden Doodle. Cuddle off, like I think something could happen there. I think it’s going to be really cute. He loves the bubble blanket. He’s actually fighting my son for it. They go back and forth, and sometimes I see Cole kind of trying to drag it out of my son’s room. But it’s really heavy. So it’s just very hard, but it’s really cute to watch. Other things that I want, true botanical skincare. Love it all the time. Low-key sure that this is what is keeping Samuel Alito looking so fresh-faced. Or maybe it’s just hate. I’d like to think it’s true botanicals, but who knows. But here are some less expensive things. I think we should have a range of different price points here. And I know that true botanicals can be kind of pricey. Something that I absolutely love that is very accessible, Elf Liquid Camo Blush. You can buy this at Amazon. You can by it at CVS or Walgreens. It’s a liquid blush, and you just sort of tap, tap, tap it on your cheekbones, and then blend. And it looks like a really sort of natural flush, like that you were just embarrassed. It’s fantastic. Highly recommend.
Jordan Thomas It’s my turn.
Leah Litman It is your turn.
Kate Shaw Yes, your turn.
Melissa Murray And you better bring it, Jordan.
Jordan Thomas Something that I want. I have very long hair for those of you who are watching on YouTube or elsewhere. You can see I have a gigantic afro. So hair care is very important to me and I’ve… I recently started experimenting with different forms of hair care as it gets longer. I try to just see how I can keep it looking beautiful and voluminous. And somebody told me that Tea Tree Leave-In Conditioner really keeps it shining and keeps it healthy and long. And so I’m definitely looking into the new Tea Tree brand of leave-in conditioners for those of you with long hair and curly hair. Then I need to moisturize it after I get out the shower. And I love the pink moisturizer brand, but I’m running low. So things I want is I need an emergency supply of pink moisturizer.
Melissa Murray Pink moisturizer is seriously old school, Jordan. That was around when I was in high school.
Jordan Thomas I have an old school hair style, I have an afro.
Melissa Murray I mean.
Leah Litman The only people I would take care advice from are Jordan Thomas and Lisa Barlow. So these are endorsements that are worth having.
Melissa Murray I resent that.
Kate Shaw Melissa, yeah.
Melissa Murray I resent that. I was going to say to you, Jordan, you should also try Curl Mix, which is great for curly hair. Highly recommend.
Jordan Thomas Thank you.
Leah Litman So next category, something you need. So I was going to recommend the Peloton app stretching classes. I have basically had problems sleeping since, I don’t know, November 2024, December 2024. Not sure why, but that’s when my insomnia kicked in. And I found that Peloton’s evening stretch classes, specifically with Maddy Majocomo, They, I love them. They’re so helpful. Like hip openers really help me relax and like fall asleep. So definitely recommend that. Something you need for the perfect puppy in your life are farmhounds dog treats and badlands ranch food. My dog is obsessed.
Kate Shaw Okay, so I was debating whether to put this in the want or need category, but I decided need and the thing that I want to put in at the top of my need list is a personalized bobble head. So is this a moment when I can pull out the personalized bobblehead? It’s allowed. All right. So Leah Litman is the genius behind this personalized bobble head, Melissa, you’ve got yours.
Kate Shaw Jordan you got one.
Leah Litman Jordan has one.
Kate Shaw You’re at the law school right now, so we didn’t tell you to bring the prop. So we will have to post pictures like stills of all these.
Melissa Murray We’ll have to Photoshop it.
Kate Shaw But yeah, so this is my personalized bobblehead, which is on my shelf, it’s joining my bobbleheads right now are John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Barack Obama, and now myself, which I think is a classic.
Melissa Murray Actually, I’m pretty happy about it. That’s the court we’ve been dreaming of. Exactly, exactly.
Kate Shaw We need a fifth vote though, guys. There’s four, and it’s a terrible number. Melissa, I’m right here. I’m here. OK, everybody got on my bookshelf. Yeah, so that’s right. So the court is you, me, John Paul Stevens, David Sooner, and Barack Obama. Well, that sounds like a missed opportunity on your part to not have a Melissa Murray bobblehead. OK, so actually, that’s correct. The thing I need is now a bobble head of my co-hosts so I can actually have all of us behind me. All right, so I’m going to work on for next year. And actually, this is the office that I don’t usually record in this room. But since I am in here, I’m going to show you. Something else I have which is actually my husband last year, no no no maybe three years ago actually for Christmas got our whole family these little like action figure dolls made of ourselves and it was like it was I think it was an artist actually and now it wasn’t three years probably four years ago because it was a kind of COVID creation there was an artist you know people found all kinds of crazy ways to try to make money when everything was shut down and so this artist who I think is no longer doing this was like making these personalized action figures. Will go well with my bobblehead. So you can also try to find somebody making those. Okay, quickly, a couple other things. Lily Allen tickets. We’re going in New York. Leah, you’re gonna go in DC, right?
Leah Litman Oh yeah, I’m going in DC. I was, I thought I was going in DC with at least one of you who said, I couldn’t go to New York. I could go to DC. So I get tickets and then it’s like, no, I can go to New York after all.
Kate Shaw I said I couldn’t go to DCA, but…
Leah Litman Are you looking at me?
Melissa Murray I did do that. That was really bad. Yeah, you did. Luckily you have friends.
Kate Shaw Luckily you have friends in DC who I know will take those tickets off.
Melissa Murray I totally for honestly, Leah, I forgot I did that. I can only blame perimenopause.
Leah Litman I just reminded you.
Melissa Murray Okay, you did.
Kate Shaw All right. Last thing, and then I’m going to turn it over to Melissa. You need t-shirts made by Leah Lippman, limited edition t-shirt, like this one, Stricks Reading All Along. Can you even? Sorry. Like, my hair’s in the way. Oh, yeah. You can see it. Because Leah makes and sometimes gives out these t- shirts at live shows, like the ones we’re going to be doing in California in March. So if you were already thinking about, or maybe even weren’t thinking about but should be thinking about getting tickets to one of our two live shows. One in San Francisco, one in Los Angeles. Now you know there are potential t-shirt giveaways in the mix, so get those tickets.
Leah Litman And I’m pretty sure I’m gonna make just the tip ones.
Kate Shaw Oh wow, that’s pretty exciting. Reason enough. Okay.
Melissa Murray [AD].
Melissa Murray So things that I need or learned that I needed this year. So first up, caddis readers. And yes, folks, macular degeneration is real if you are an older person, and I am the oldest person on this podcast. So this year, I got myself some readers. And not just any readers, I’ve got caddis reader. So these are fashionable. Mine actually are camouflage, and they are very, very cool. And you can get them in all kinds of strengths. You can get the most progressive readers where you can see over the top and then under. I don’t know. They explained it to me some kind of way. Either way, I can read again. It’s fantastic. I’m going to recommend it to some of the Republican justices so they, too, can read it again. So helpful. So helpful, the gift that keeps on giving. In addition to those readers, I also love, and I brought a prop. Black wing matte pencils. Like I don’t know about you, but when I start writing an article or whatnot, I like to actually write it down on paper, just the tip. And I love writing with these pencils. It’s like a really soft lead. It makes a really nice line. And sometimes when I’m doodling, I just doodle all over my little notes for myself. And I like doing it with a black wing matte pencil. They’re really great, and they have a really cool eraser at the bottom. So highly recommend that. And then, since November 2024, as Leah suggested, it’s been really hard kind of dealing with things. So one way that I have been dealing, and I don’t recommend this, but every now and again, I think it’s nice to open a bottle of as ever rosé from my someday friend, the other MM, the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle, and have a little glass, like a little tipple. I’m disappointed you don’t have a prop to show it.
Kate Shaw I’m disappointed you don’t have a prop to show us your open bottle over the day.
Melissa Murray Oh, we didn’t even script that. Let me see that bottle. Actually, I forgot. It’s actually in the den. But it actually is surprisingly good wine that you can buy on the internet. Not all wine you buy on internet is great, but this is pretty good. I like it. Refreshing.
Jordan Thomas I’ll return back to the theme of tickets. So Lily Allen tickets are, I think for those who are fans, I hopefully get a chance to see her. But I actually, I really like hard rock. And I know that that’s a unusual genre for listeners of this podcast. But those of you who are sympathetic, Evanescence just announced a new tour with Spirit Box and I absolutely love Evanescent.
Melissa Murray Why is he talking about Evanescence like this wasn’t a band from the 1990s?
Jordan Thomas Everybody listens to Hard Rock. Not everybody listens to Hard rock. This is not about age.
Melissa Murray I don’t know if that’s hard rock.
Kate Shaw I’m listening to the young person’s genre.
Melissa Murray That’s because you were reading in the 90s, Kate, I don’t know that Evanescence is hard rock. What do you think, Leah? I say no. I say, no, too.
Jordan Thomas That’s fair. And Jordan. That’s there, I mean, Evanescence to be fair, I think aside from Linkin Park is the most mainstream of hard rock bands when you look at their streams on Spotify, it’s basically Linkin park and Evanescent. So I love that. They have, you know.
Melissa Murray Well, I just wonder if maybe the youth have gotten soft, Jordan. Maybe that’s what happened. Now it’s hard rock, but it wasn’t.
Jordan Thomas Well, I think that they’re adjacent to other bands that I was going to mention like Sleep Token, Spirit Box, Bad Omens, Architects. Do you know any of these?
Melissa Murray Obviously, I do, Jordan.
Jordan Thomas Anyway, all of these bands just released new music. They’re all going on tour, continuing in 2026. Korn, also a band from the 90s, is going on to tour in 20 26. So for those of us who are fans of hard rock music, it’s going to be an amazing year of concerts that have just been announced. And I need to get tickets for many of these. I don’t know how many I’ll actually be able to go to, but I’ll try. Aside from that, I’m wearing right now these beautiful set of Sony headphones, and they work very well for me when I need noise canceling, but what I actually need is there are a pair of behind the head. Headphones called Marathon headphones that don’t squish your hair and so for those of you who have the same problem that I do that you do you love to listen to music you’re listening to it 24-7 but you need something where you can just sort of you know wrap it around your head good sound quality and it’s not gonna mess up your do for the day they’re called marathon and I used to have this beautiful pair and they broke so I am now studying for law school finals without my go-to headphones and I desperately need a pair of Marathon behind the neck headphones.
Melissa Murray Marathon, if you’re listening to this, you can’t buy this kind of publicity. I just want you to know. Send those to the Yale Law School, 124 Wall Street, New Haven, Connecticut, 06511.
Kate Shaw Wait, is the brand Marathon or that’s a category of headphones?
Jordan Thomas No, it’s a brand. If you go and you type in Marathon behind the head, behind the neck headphones, they’ll pop right up.
Leah Litman So something to wear. My first recommendation is the Forme Posture Bra. And yes, this is the bra that Taylor Swift was photographed in when she was rehearsing for the Eras Tour. And yes that is why I bought my first one. But it’s so good. Like it actually helps my back. That’s why I got this second one.
Kate Shaw Does it actually help posture? That’s the one that’s supposed to give you good posture, right?
Leah Litman Yeah, no, it helps posture and seriously, like it really does help. Back pain. Like I love that thing. Really recommend that. And then so this last year, you know, we had the good fortune of being dressed by Argent at one of our live shows and I am now obsessed. I just love their bright colors and like all of the fun work wear. And yeah, it just like makes, I don’t know, like work dressing a lot more fun than it ever was. I also still love the reel the outlet. And also anything Melissa recommends I buy, I end up loving. She is my worst enabler, but her taste is unparalleled.
Melissa Murray Can we tell them about a text exchange we have? Yes. So I got an email update that the Veronica Beard online store was having some kind of Cyber Monday sale where everything was marked down. Some things just 70% off. Like 80%. Crazy. And so I sent it to Leah. And I noted FYI, the iconic Scuba jacket, the Scuba Dickie jacket, is on sale and heavily discounted. And so Leah, I sent her the precise website for it, the URL. Leah clicks on it, and then a few minutes later, I see the dot, dot, she’s thinking. And she’s like, which color should I buy, navy or black? And so I said, both. I was just joking. But I think that I had to go wash dishes or something. And I think you bought them.
Leah Litman Yeah, I did. Again, you’re my worst enabler.
Melissa Murray I was joking.
Kate Shaw Wait, have they arrived yet?
Leah Litman You were just joking.
Melissa Murray They came, though. And you love them, right?
Leah Litman I do.
Kate Shaw That’s great.
Melissa Murray Yeah. They’re going to go with everything. You’re going have them forever. All right. My turn? Your turn. OK, so I am quince-pilled, as you know. And quince, I think, is well known for its very accessible cashmere. But do not sleep on the yak wool sweaters. Now, I know you’re thinking, Melissa, yak wool does not sound terribly appealing. I too was a yak wool skeptic, but I recently purchased one of these sweaters. And it’s surprisingly soft. It’s even more accessible than the cashmere. And it is the perfect length for layering with a white t-shirt and then wearing with corduroys and your sambas. It’s the perfect lounging around outfit. And I think they’re actually very, very durable. They don’t pill. I really like it. Highly, highly recommend. Also want to recommend the Uniqlo white tee. It has a great, really close collar if you want to wear it under suits and whatnot. Also looks good if you’re wearing a crew neck. They’re so cheap. They’re like $14 at Uniql and you can buy them online. You can buy in the store. Highly, highly recommend. Also really enjoy the Clearly Collective Collegiate Scarf collection. So. If you are an alumna of, I don’t know, the University of Virginia, there is a scarf in orange and blue, the University of Virginia’s colors with the rotunda on it and the lawn. And if you go to some other schools, I don’t know, like the University of North Carolina, I guess, they have scarves for you, too, in whatever your dumb colors are. Anyway.
Kate Shaw We welcome our UNC listeners, just to be clear, Melissa.
Melissa Murray I’m just kidding. I’m kidding. We love UNC. They’re so great. Anyway, so highly recommend those. And right now, because it’s getting cold in New York, I have longed for a hat that will not mess up my pixie. And I found the Weiss Soft Cashmere Beanie on Amazon. It’s a little pricey. It’s about $65 for a hot you might lose. So you got to hold onto it. But it’s really oversized. So it doesn’t push your hair down. And it keeps your. Quaff or in good shape and you just like take off the hat and just like sort of fluff your hair and you’re fine again highly recommend.
Kate Shaw I need more like Melissa enabling kind of shopping in my life. I just don’t, I almost never buy anything. I do.
Melissa Murray I do text you things and you don’t respond.
Kate Shaw Don’t stop doing it. I’m receptive. I just am sometimes indecisive. But I do think, like, at least half of the time.
Melissa Murray Just give me your credit card.
Kate Shaw The t-shirts I wear. My friend Isa is always saying that, just like, just let me just go shopping for you. But I would say half the shirts I wear on my body are like ones designed by Leah. It’s just like they’re great. So I will re-recommend Leah Littman t-shirt of the world. Our merch store on the website for the podcast, the Strict Scrutiny Merch, now has at least two baby onesies in the collection. That is new. And she loves wearing those too. I personally do not. And yet Something to wear is the general category we’re in. And I have a tiny new baby nephew. Um, I only hesitated cause I was like, I was, I think it was going to be buying him or I ordered him a couple of these, but I don’t think his parents listened to my podcast, so I think that’s fine. I’m not going to ruin the surprise. But if you have babies in your life, get some of our onesies. Um, and then the last is since we talked about cozy earth, which is the maker of that bubble blanket we were talking about, they also make really nice clothing and I have. Their studio wide leg pants that are just like at home pajama kind of trouser pants that I often do also wear out of the house. And they are so soft and so comfortable and I am completely obsessed with them and this conversation is making me remember. I’ve worn them so much, they’re getting a little frayed at the bottom. I should probably get another pair.
Melissa Murray You know where they’re great for wearing?
Kate Shaw Where?
Melissa Murray To the airport.
Kate Shaw I wear them on the Amtrak. I usually take the train.
Melissa Murray Stick it to Sean Duffy. No, no. Oh. When you want to stick it to Sean Duffey.
Kate Shaw No, because they’re all so cute. They don’t look schlubby. They actually look.
Melissa Murray They don’t look schluppy. But they are. I don’t think women are allowed to wear pants in that world. Oh, that’s true. Yeah, she was skirts and heels. You will be sticking it to him. You’re in your lounge wear, and your lounge wear is pants, and you are a lady.
Kate Shaw Good point. All right, Jordan, you’re up.
Jordan Thomas I’ll double down on the strict scrutiny gear. It’s basically all I wear these days. It’s awesome. I’m wearing my beautiful, lawless hoodie right now and can never get enough of it. I also want crooked gear. I was at Crooked Con, one of the highlights of the year for sure. But by the time that I went to try to get merch, they actually had clothes to merch stand, which is very unfortunate. Oh, God.
Kate Shaw We are going to fix this. We’re going to hook you up with some gear. That is good to know.
Jordan Thomas Thank you. But I did see online, you know, follow Crooked on Instagram and all your social media channels. And I saw that you can actually go online and get some of the merch that was at CrookedCon. So if you, like me, missed your chance to get merch, something to wear is to go onto the Crooked site and look at their store. They have a very robust offering of items that I hope to get and to wear. Aside from Strict Scrutiny or Crooked gear, I need a new set of jeans. And I love dark wash jeans. I love the look of them. You can pair them with most types of outfits and you can sort of wear them down, wear them up. And so I’m in the market for dark wash jeans and I love this brand called Mavi Jeans. So something to wear. They have a nice dark wash style. They have a darker sort of off gray, black if you’re into that, you know, for the goth people amongst us or if you are just looking for something to pair with a nice sort of top that needs a black bottom. Mavi jeans are amazing. They look great. They feel great. I need some Mavis jeans.
Melissa Murray Can I ask a question, Jordan?
Jordan Thomas Yes.
Melissa Murray Is it MAVI, M-A-V-I?
Jordan Thomas M-A-V-I, MAVI jeans.
Melissa Murray That’s from the 90s, Jordan, like all of your picks.
Jordan Thomas I’m old school. I’m an old soul.
Kate Shaw I love this! We are learning something important about you, Jordan.
Jordan Thomas I’m an old soul.
Leah Litman Are we going to say the 90s is old school, old soul? Um,.
Melissa Murray Yeah, Jordan, this feels very…
Jordan Thomas I wear Mavi jeans, I use pink moisturizer, I listen to Evanescence and Third Eye Blind. What can I say, Melissa?
Kate Shaw This is great. This is why we get along so well.
Melissa Murray Jordan, basically, you’re a 50-year-old woman, is what you’re saying.
Jordan Thomas I’m fine with that.
Kate Shaw I love it.
Leah Litman OK, so one quick addendum before onto something to read. I am wearing this cardigan that Melody got me for my birthday and I’m obsessed. It’s a secret cardigan because Taylor hasn’t actually made a reputation cardigan, but this is a reputation cardigan and I love it. OK, on something to Read. I am only going to recommend fiction. So Alison Esbach, Wedding People. Anything by Julianne Long, I especially enjoyed the Pennyroyal Green series. Lisa Claypast’s The Wallflower series was my favorite. I love Sarah McLean’s These Summer Storms, V.E. Schwab’s Bury My Bones in the Midnight Soil, Liz Moore, God of the Woods. All just fantastic books. You can get them all at bookshop.org and support your local independent bookstores. I also joined Book of the Month, which I really like. Just gifts that keeps on giving. You know, you get to select a different book every month from among their great recommendations. It’s just super fun. Also in the category of fiction, something I wanted to highlight is the conservative slash Republican justices on the Wisconsin Supreme Court, their fiction, just like making shit up. So by way of background, quickly, the Wisconsin supreme court appointed some three judge panels to hear challenges to the state’s court-adopted congressional map. That sounds weird just let it slide you know when the court was still conservative slash republican control they adopted a congressional map you know the procedural posture isn’t worth getting into right now but the court adopted the map and said it complied with the constitution now some plaintiffs are challenging the map which is an extreme partisan gerrymander you know, the map was drawn using the state legislature’s extreme partisan gerrymandered as a jumping off point anyways several of the conservative justices on the court had an absolute fucking Melty and got big. When the Supreme Court appointed these panels to hear these challenges. And apparently they were so out of their minds, they hallucinated quotes from Supreme Court opinions. So Justice Ziegler, for example, quoted the United States Supreme Court opinion in Moore versus Harper in saying that state court’s role in congressional redistricting is, quote, exceedingly limited, end quote. That quote does not appear in Moore, and Justice Zegler has since modified her opinion. But in ways that are nonsensical. So now her opinion says state court’s role in congressional redistricting is exceedingly limited and cites more, but it cites the passage in more that just says, state courts may not transgress the ordinary bounds of judicial review in election cases, i.e. That they have a normal role. The opinion is laced with accusations. It has many different sections, including a part titled A Pattern of Partisan Judicial Activism. Justice Rebecca Bradley also has a dissent. And since I love my girl, Rebecca Bradley had to read a line or two from it, quote. I’ll just go with the ending. The majority, nevertheless, entertains yet another kick at the redistricting cat. Unlike Schrodinger’s cat, this one, most assuredly, has been dead for years. I dissent, end quote. Girl, this did not work. You know you got to do a wolf, not a cat. She missed the memo. Their opinion in the right family. Exactly, exactly. Like these opinions have big like we are infallible because we are a final energy. Like how dare you criticize us. But a challenge to this map could undo one of the worst Republican leading partisan gerrymanders in the country. So definitely a case to watch.
Kate Shaw Okay, I’m gonna be a little shorter. No shade Leah. That was great But I don’t have a lot of long quotes from unhinged state Supreme Court justices to read as I said fiction Okay, so nonfiction I’m just gonna do a little bit I had hoped to be able to say on this pod I finally finished reading Robert Caro’s the power broker, but I cannot say an untrue thing and I am so close And yet I am not done. So I really hope that by the time we get to 2026’s favorite things, and hopefully well before, I will be able to say I’m really done with it. But it’s amazing. It’s just so fucking long. But I’m inside of the finish line. Other kind of non-fiction books that stuck with me this year, Michael Lewis’s Who is Government, the Elon Musk biography by Kate Conjure and Ryan Mack called Character Limit was really, really good. John Witt’s The Radical Fund, we had John on the show to talk about it. Those kind of really stuck with from the last year. And just a couple of fiction books. To recommend or re-recommend Allegra Goodman’s Isola, So Beautiful, Lily King’s Heart the Lover, which I’ve already recommended, Kavya Akbar’s Martyr, and Ben Shaddock’s short story collection, The History of Sound, every single short story in that collection, which is not my genre. Like I am not a short story fan normally, but I absolutely adored these short stories.
Melissa Murray All right, nonfiction, Tina Knowles’s Matriarch loved it. I know everyone thinks it’s just a little Destiny’s Child confessional, but there’s actually a lot of Black history. She talks a lot about her childhood growing up in Galveston in this very tightly knit Black community, her work in Houston, how she basically transformed her daughter into one of the world’s biggest pop sensations. So yeah, Miss Tina is doing all the things, and you should definitely get on that. I also loved Imani Perry’s Black in Blues. Imani is a former law professor. Now she’s just a professor, not just a Professor at Princeton, but she’s left the law game. And she’s crushing it. She’s one of most formidable thinkers, I think, of our time. She wrote this fantastic book, South to America. This is the follow-up, Black in Blues, where she talks about the linkages between blackness and the color blue. So there’s a lot of meditation on the blues, obviously, but also black, blue, and what it means to have color in the absence of color. She’s a wonderful writer, a serious thinker, and someone that should be on everyone’s radar. Some of you know that my favorite author is Jane Austin. And so I really enjoyed Rebecca Romney’s Jane Austin’s Book Shelf, which are all the things that Jane Austin and her sister, Cassandra, used to read as they were exchanging letters. And she was basically being a petty bitch writing stuff about people in her village. And that’s my energy. And so, I enjoy it. I enjoy Jane Austin, I love her petty vibe, and highly enjoyed this book. In terms of fiction, I think, Leah, you like this one too. I really enjoyed Taylor Jenkin Reid’s Atmosphere, which is a book that I guess you might call it historical fiction because it takes place in the 1980s as the space program is sort of just getting off in terms of the shuttle program. And it’s about a group of astronauts. You might like this, Jordan, since it takes place in a past. There’s also Marie Bostick’s. The Book Club for Troublesome Women. I picked that up because I thought it was about our podcast, but it really wasn’t. It was about something else, but I enjoyed it a lot. And then I also really want to recommend The Loneliness of Sonia and Sonny by Karen Desai. It was shortlisted for the Booker Prize. I personally think it should have won. I thought this was one of the best books of the year.
Leah Litman So before we go to Jordan, Kate and Melissa, any other non-fiction books you especially enjoyed?
Kate Shaw Oh, geez, that was this year! Everyone! Every one!
Melissa Murray I thought that was obvious
Kate Shaw Should have been I know and Jordan actually gets the gold medal for wearing the sweatshirt but Leah Litman’s Lawless is a book that was
Melissa Murray How do you know we weren’t seeding just Jordan to talk about it? How do know that? Maybe you pulled the trigger.
Kate Shaw He probably was.
Melissa Murray Giving it to the intern.
Kate Shaw Because he is an excellent hype man but also
Leah Litman I wanted to put you two on the spot and not him.
Kate Shaw Uh, yes, but I think he probably would have done it organically, but yes.
Melissa Murray But yes, let’s let Jordan go
Kate Shaw All right, I’m not going to preempt him, but I will say I do co-sign the endorsement of Lawless that Jordan is about to make. Go ahead.
Melissa Murray Go Jordan!
Jordan Thomas I was actually going to lead with Lawless, so you two are off the hook. It’s my top book of the year. We knew that. I just think it’s really unique for the genre. It’s so accessible. It’s funny. It, in many ways, brought my mom and dad up to speed on what’s happening at the courts. It’s always wonderful when I can speak with them about what’s going on. So Leah just did a phenomenal job with the book. And I think for those who love American Horror Story and the Barbie movie and want a mix of pop culture and law, which is this podcast encapsulated in a book so perfectly, that’s Lawless for You. So just wonderful, deserves a best seller status that it’s attained.
Kate Shaw Let’s go!
Melissa Murray I just want to say, you know, Leah, have a little faith. Like, we did coordinate this. Oh, yeah, I’m sure. I’m so sure. We did. I mean, I knew Jordan was going to say it.
Kate Shaw Look how he’s dressed. He’s wearing.
Melissa Murray Look at what he’s wearing!
Jordan Thomas I was ready.
Melissa Murray Hello.
Leah Litman That’s fair. That’s fair. OK, I accept your critiques.
Kate Shaw Um, wait, but Jordan, you, you don’t, you can leave it there.
Leah Litman You are allowed to have other recommendations.
Kate Shaw Mic drop, but you are also welcome to endorse other things if you would like.
Jordan Thomas I will say that this book is premier amongst books, but I will give a few others. Another premier book actually I will say, Husband of the Pod, Chris Hayes, The Siren’s Call, How Attention Became the World’s Most Endangered Resource is a phenomenal book. I think for people who are really into the anxious generation and generally thinking about how digital media is really changing all sorts of social interaction and personal cognization, it’s just a wonderful contribution to that genre. And he does a really great job of actually proposing solutions as well and weaving in the law. So just Chris Hayes, the Sirens Call does it all. Another front of the podcast, Bad Law by Elie Mystal, 10 Laws That Are Ruining America, sort of walks you through things like standard ground laws, different gun laws in different states that are really contributing to inequality and injustice across the country that I thought was very well done, especially if you like his other book, Allow Me to Retort, A Black Man’s Interpretation of the Constitution. And it’s very much a follow on to that. And it’s funny as Ellie tends to be. A classmate of mine actually, Yale Law School, Zakir Tammies just came out with Charles Sumner, Conscience of a Nation.
Melissa Murray We love that one.
Jordan Thomas Absolutely wonderful contribution. He actually wrote this or started writing it when he was a 3L in law school. I don’t know how he made time to do it, but it’s a wonderful new look at a forgotten figure of sorts. Everybody remembers Charles Sumner for his caning on the Senate floor, but people don’t actually appreciate how much he contributed to reconstruction era project. Yeah, he was actually, he’s a radical. He was a part of the radical republicans at the time. And he had a deep links to Frederick Douglass and not just Frederick Dougless, but several early black lawyers in the reconstruction south and was helping to lead the charge of reconstruction, you know, post antebellum rebuilding. And so just really fascinating look at Charles Sumner from my friend’s stock here. I’ll also put out there a new book by Sonia Sotomayor. I think we don’t give enough attention to her. We’re talking about Anthony Kennedy’s new memoir, we’re talking about Amy Coney Barrett’s new memoir, but I will say Justice Sotomayor just came out with the children’s book. It’s called Just Shine, How to Be Yourself, How To Be Great, I think is what it is. And it’s really much in this sort of ilk of new children’s books that she’s put out in the past few years. She had one called Just Ask, Just Help, and so this one’s called just shine and it’s dedicated to her mother and it really showing children how to explore differences amongst people, but also lean into themselves and to be brilliant, to be kind, to be empathetic. And I just think it’s really wonderful. You know, at a time when you have cases like Mahmood V. Taylor that are, you know, making it more difficult for children in schools to access books of sorts because of parental opt-outs, it’s sort of telling that one justice is make it easier for children to access book because she’s writing them herself. So I just think its wonderful.
Melissa Murray I noticed, Jordan, that although you like to do these throwbacks, you haven’t thrown back to another Strict Scrutiny book, The Trump Indictments.
Jordan Thomas There it is.
Leah Litman We said the last year.
Jordan Thomas I thought it was only the past year, to be fair.
Melissa Murray I’m just going to say this book, after this year and this court, this is basically fantasy. Right. This is a fantasy read. It’s moved from the nonfiction to the fiction.
Correct. Correct.
Melissa Murray [AD]
Leah Litman Maybe super quickly, just some highlights of last year and goals for the next. I absolutely loved our time at Crooked Con. It was just like a magical, energetic audience. I loved meeting the VIPs at our different live shows this last year. This might be surprising to people. I am not an extrovert, and yet I loved meeting all of you. How both of these things can be true, slightly shocking. Specific live show highlights. Melissa gave me a nickname Sugar Goblin, which I have embraced. Us all getting to eat Giordano’s pizza in Chicago and getting to give a shout out to the stage manager’s father. And before the show, Melissa, you learning what just the tip means will not forget that. The DC crowd cheering for Chevron deference, Judge Breyer making an appearance at our New York City live show. This is a highlight of the last few weeks. So guess what our producer, Melody Rowell’s number one song on her Spotify rap was. You’re never going to guess, so I’m just going to tell you. It’s Tate McCray’s sports car. And this makes me laugh so hard every time I remember it. She gave me permission to share it. It’s okay, Melody, it’s fine. I listen to Addison Rae’s famous The Gun When I Stretch. It’s all good. One other highlight, completing the marathon swim about one year after the bike accident. That was a major highlight.
Melissa Murray OK, my highlights. Really want to thank the folks at Argent for dressing us for our live shows. Thank you to Sally Christensen and Alex DiCapopatel for making us look so put together like an amazing rainbow of legal analysis. You were absolutely fantastic. We love that. Another thing I love, but I know Melody hates, is when Cole jingle bombs an episode. Yeah. If you don’t know what that means, Cole has a little bell on his collar. And sometimes he just walks in and you can hear it. And Melody absolutely hates it. But we all kind of love it a little bit. I also enjoyed our backstage shenanigans. I’m not going to be shamed for not knowing what just the tip is.
Leah Litman That was not a shame.
Melissa Murray We’re all here to learn. And it’s fine. I also really enjoyed meeting Jordan’s parents. And also Kate’s parents, Kate’s showed up in Chicago.
Kate Shaw And Jordan’s parents, I will co-assign, are just.
Melissa Murray Adorable.
Kate Shaw Unbelievably lovely people. We’ve now met at a couple of live shows and are just like angels who walk the earth as far as I can tell. They really are wonderful, Jordan.
Melissa Murray They are lovely.
Jordan Thomas Thank you all.
Kate Shaw Okay, I will briefly agree about the live shows in DC. Leah mentioned cheering for Chevron. There was also at some point we shouted out the government workers in the crowd and just this roar came up and that was relatively early in this absolute dystopic nightmare that we are living through, but just like so much gratitude to the people who are sticking it out and trying to do the people’s work.
Melissa Murray Some of whom were our students.
Kate Shaw Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Murray We had some former students.
Kate Shaw We did and we also had a member of the DC audience who spilled some remarkable tea afterwards So I’m still thinking about that as kind of a highlight from the last year Also highlight the same week of crooked con we had a pretty high impact election including of New York City mayors or on Mom Donnie who will be inaugurated just a couple of days after this episode it drops That feels like an exciting bright spot in an otherwise really really dark time My New York City Book Club has also been a great, bright spot. Lots of recommendations on the WhatsApp in addition to substantive book discussion. I’ve watched a lot of children’s, both middle school and high school basketball in the last year as both of my older kids are really serious ballers these days. And actually it’s incredibly fun to watch your kids play increasingly high level basketball. Even if travel basketball is kind of the bane of my existence, it’s also been incredibly fun. And as awful as this administration, as this court. Kind of as the two together are, it has been just an enormous, you know, source of relief and comfort and often amusement and even joy to get to debrief it with you, Leah, and you, Melissa, and more recently you, Jordan, and with our listeners. So that too has been a highlight of the last year. Jordan, over to you.
Jordan Thomas Well, the number one highlight, for sure, of the past year has been starting to work with you all. I started in January, so coming up almost on the one year anniversary and it’s just been wonderful. I remember every live show, I think I went to every single one this year, starting with Fordham in February and onward, and they’ve all been fun and unique in their own way. Actually, the only one I did not go to was DC, much to my chagrin, because I was graduating that week. And so that’s another highlight of year was I actually finally in this very long JDMBA pathway had a double graduation in May law school first and then ten days later business school and now I’m in this sort of weird semester that remains because of the structure of my dual degree but once I submit my last exam on December 22nd I will forever be done with being a student so it’s the end of an era this year.
Leah Litman Congratulations, the legal profession needs you.
Jordan Thomas Well, it’s very exciting to be transitioning now to actually being able to use the knowledge and to try to, in some ways, contribute to this crazy universe that we’re in right now. Every single week, as you all recap on this podcast, it seems like there’s something else that’s on fire. And if I could try to use what I’ve learned over the past few years and continue to learn through this wonderful legal education that is this podcast. It’s really an honor to be able to do so. So my big highlights, working with Strict Scrutiny, finally graduating, getting ready it be impactful. And I’ll also say listening to strict scrutiny. So on my Spotify wrapped, it said that I listened to 13,070 minutes, which is a little.
Melissa Murray That sounds right.
Jordan Thomas A little over 217 hours of strict scrutiny, and it put me in the top.
Melissa Murray Nothing wrong with that.
Jordan Thomas Top 0.05%, which I’m hoping that means I’m the number one listener. From the past year and that was a real highlight.
Melissa Murray Sam Alito might have you be. The hate-listening crowd is pretty strong.
Jordan Thomas He’s 0.01%. I’m 0.0.
Melissa Murray No, he hates lessons.
Jordan Thomas But all of those were highlights.
Leah Litman Um, so some new year’s goals, um, speaking of Sam Alito, I want to review Sam Alitos book. I just really want to do that. I think that would be fun. I like writing book reviews. So want that to happen. I also want to read uncensored versions of Elena Kagan’s dissent. So I’m going to repeat that request. Um, if there is a crooked con next year, I want it to feel like the same high as this year did, you know, on the heels of the November 2025 elections. I’d also like a Kavanaugh meltdown around that same time, as we had this past year too. And finally, I want the three of us, Melody, Michael and Jordan to be in the same places for more extended periods of time.
Kate Shaw That would be great. I’m just going to do one, which is that I were talking about Justice’s books. I want Elena Kagan to write a book. But I don’t want it to be a memoir. And I don’t even really want it be a law book. I want a Elena Kagon to write fiction. I feel like she would slay in that genre. Fascinating. And that’s all. Just put it out there to the universe.
Melissa Murray I think I’m going to bring down the vibe a little bit. I think my goal for this year is literally just surviving this craptastic administration. I think it’s just becoming, I think especially as a person of color, I it’s becoming harder to imagine that you are insulated from the crap that they’re doing. Looking at all of the people being swept up on the streets, just because you’re a citizen, you’re going to be exempt from that. You know, now that they’re focusing on Somalis, I think black people can’t be assured that they are going to be safe and inoculated from all of this. So I’m just saying that if you have friends in your lives who fall into these categories of people who are likely to be targeted or look like people who are like to be targetted, I just think everyone ought to be aware like it just feels really unsafe and that lack of safety feels. Very uncertain, sorry, and that lack of safety feels.
Kate Shaw It’s like Cole’s like, I will protect you if no one’s coming for you, Cole.
Melissa Murray I just think it feels really uncertain, and I just, you know, I think the goal is to survive and to take care of each other and to resist this.
Jordan Thomas In a similar register for me, just more resistance, more energy and passion around continuing to make our voices heard. I think that the chaos is the point, the exhaustion is the point. They want us to feel demoralized and to feel like there’s nothing you can do in the face of what’s happening every single day from ice and the like. But I think you look at the energy around the No Kings marches that took place this year. That was really exciting. More of that in 2026. More marches. It doesn’t have to be No Kings. Think about what it is that we’re passionate about and try to galvanize some sort of energy and movement behind it. We need to really try to show that the people are resisting and that they’re political, but also on the ground, you know, boots on the groundbreaking voices being heard, consequences to the actions being taken by this administration. So more of that in 2026 and also more institutional resistance. I think that the judiciary, the lower courts in particular, were great bulwarks of constitutionalism over the past year And I hope that we continue to see judges, like Judge William Young on the District of Massachusetts, right? He got this terrible note that said, Trump has pardons and tanks. What do you have? And he goes on to write this absolutely fire opinion that says, alone, all I have is my sense of duty. But together, you and I, we have this thing called the Constitution. Here’s how that plays out in an opinion. And he wrote this wonderful opinion upholding free speech rights of non-citizens who were being ideologically detained and deported. So I think that continuing to see judges, all the clerks who are working for these judges, continuing to make sure that you uphold the bastion of constitutionalism in our country will be important. So people on the streets, judges and clerks in the courts, and hopefully we can try to fight our way through 2026.
Kate Shaw Thank you for being landing that as the conscience of the podcast, Jordan. That’s a great place to, I think, leave it.
Melissa Murray [AD]
Kate Shaw And now, a very warm welcome to our guest for the end of this episode, Ellen Weintraub. We’re recording this episode at the end of the week during which the court handed in a pretty, we thought, appalling performance in both Trump versus Slaughter, about the future of independent agencies and also RNC versus Federal Election Commission about campaign finance regulation. And since this is our favorite things episode and independent agencies and regulating money in politics are two of our favorite thing. We wanted to bring Ellen into the end of this episode, so Ellen, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. Ellen, you are a former commissioner and I think four time chair of the Federal Election Commission. That is traditionally an independent agency and obviously it regulates money in politics. So you have a lot of skin in both of the cases that the court heard this week. What did you make of those arguments?
Ellen Weintraub Well, it was not a particularly uplifting week for me. I sat through, I listened to both of them from start to end, and I think they’re really, there’s a common theme in the two of them, and it has to do with money. It’s all about the power of big money in our government and in our society, and whether the government is going to take any steps to address that or to try and push back against that, the big power of Big Industries. You know, I know the um The Supreme Court is very fond of the founders and sort of obsesses about what they thought. But let’s face it, the founders were a bunch of guys in powdered wigs who carried muskets, rode on horseback. It’s not surprising that they failed to anticipate the needs of a 21st century economy and the need in particular for a cadre of experts in the government to have any kind hope of pushback to protect the rights of citizens, consumers, employees. Against the unregulated power of billion-dollar businesses. I thought it was really interesting. There was a very interesting pair of quotes in the slaughter argument where Justice Sotomayor, she wasn’t pulling any punches. She just came right out and said, “‘You’re asking us to destroy “‘the structure of government.'” And Justice Kavanaugh seemed to be very concerned about the notion that these agencies are exercising massive power over billion- dollar industries. Yes, that’s kind of the point, right? We want to have an effective government so that somebody other than the billion-dollar industries and the billionaires behind the billion dollar industries has a say and that their interests are represented.
Melissa Murray Well, that was actually a part of the oral argument that I thought was noticeably absent. They were talking in these really abstract terms about democracy, about administrative agencies being unaccountable to the people that somehow Congress is not a democratic institution, but the president is. And no one is really sort of drilling down to the actual reasons why we have a Federal Trade Commission, the fact that it exists to prevent the consolidation of. Industries of wealth, of monopoly power, and the very people who lined up to sit behind reconstituted FTC and it was like no one would talk about that. And I think that was also absent from some of the media coverage honestly.
Ellen Weintraub And I think, again, this lack of awareness of what’s really going on out there was echoed in the NRSC opinion, where the justices, I’m sorry, I just don’t think they know very much about how campaign finance really works. Because you don’t have to apologize for saying that on this podcast.
Kate Shaw We agree.
Ellen Weintraub This is not the first time that I have heard them say, well, that’s totally speculative, that would never happen, about things that are actually happening. Back in the Buckley decision, we had a clear statement from the court that said that individual contribution limits were necessary to deal with the reality or appearance of corruption inherent in a system permitting unlimited financial contributions. And we’re pretty close to that system right now because the coordination rules are all ready. More whole than cheese, if you want to analogize it to Swiss cheese. And that is partially, I have to say, the fault of the FEC, which usually, over my objection, had a number of decisions over the years that really opened the door to more and more interactions between the donors and the political committees and the candidates. But the notion that all of this money is going to be stockpiled and added up and then funneled back to the candidates. We have seen this exact thing happening as long ago as the 2016 election. And it was both sides, both the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign had these massive joint fundraising committees where they were collecting contributions in increments of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if you wanted to really push it, you could get to a million or perhaps more from individual donors. All of this money supposedly legal because it went to individual accounts of the individual state committees. But what really happened was that it went into their accounts and then immediately bounced back to the national committee to be used for the benefit of the presidential candidates on both sides. And we had a number of the state party committees who actually got dinged by the FEC. The larger problem was not addressed by the FEC. They failed to report that they got these contributions and then sent them back to the national committees because they were in their bank account for such a short amount of time, they didn’t even know they were there. So the notion that this kind of circumvention is not going to happen, that it’s speculative or hypothetical is completely untethered to RIA.
Kate Shaw Well, that wasn’t the only thing I would say this week that was pretty untethered to reality. There just there seemed to be a desire to dwell in the realm of abstraction, I would say, in both of these arguments, and either a kind of a bad faith, either failure to or just refusal to kind of acknowledge some of the on the ground dynamics. I think that was absolutely true in both cases. So let me ask, if I am not mistaken, Ellen, you, like Rebecca Slaughter, were fired by Donald Trump. And both to the extent that that gives you some special insight into some of the dynamics that we heard about in both of these arguments, but also sort of what unfettered presidential control has meant just in the year that Trump has been back in office and will mean going forward at an agency like the FEC, although feel free to comment more broadly, and also kind of what it might mean to unleash that throughout other pockets of federal government because we really struggle to find a limiting principle. Lawyer arguing against this agency independence was able to identify in the slaughter argument.
Ellen Weintraub And I think that is very dangerous. It’s going to mean a loss of independence. It’s gonna mean a lost of independent voices. I mean, let’s remember that the FEC is a little bit unusual in that it has an even number from each of the two parties. Most agencies are actually under the control of the president and his party because most of the independent agents, most of these multi-member boards, which is what we were talking about in the slaughter case, have an odd number. And the chair is appointed by the president. So he’s got control over these agencies. It’s not a question of the president being these agencies acting without any input from the president, but what you’re going to lose are any independent voices and you’re also going to loose if this goes down below the very top echelons of these agencies, you’re gonna lose expertise and that’s already starting to happen, obviously across government. A, the president fires people that he doesn’t like their opinions, but B, it’s going to be much more difficult to recruit good people, to come back into government. Why would somebody want to build a career on providing service to the American people, good public-spirited people that are already working throughout the government or have been working throughout government? How do you get those people to have the incentive to come to government? If they know that they’re gonna have no job security and anytime they voice an opinion that’s contrary to the president, it’ll just, they could just get fired. And the firing of people like me who did speak out, I think was intended and received as a message of intimidation to other heads of agencies and to other government employees. So I think all of that is gonna be to the detriment of the American people.
Melissa Murray And you mentioned these people that the president is firing in violation of these terms that Congress has said that now maybe the Supreme Court will make permissible going forward. How did you experience the process of being fired by the president from your post at the FEC? Some people have said that. Um, they got an email from someone. Others have said that they were supposed to get an email, but the person sending the email typed their name wrong. So they never got the email. They found out from a coworker who was CC like, I mean, it just sounds like, you know, they’re really doing this government thing at a really high level, like a plus work here. Um, can you tell us your Trump firing story?
Ellen Weintraub Yeah, I got an email. I actually was not in the office. It was late on a Thursday afternoon, and I was out of the office, so I was not staring at my email. It was a two-sentence letter. You’re removed, effective immediately. Thank you for your service. They did say thank you. You did get a thank you, not everyone did. I did get thank you I was called, but A, the letter was dated a week earlier. So I don’t know where it was during that week, but it was dated January 31st. I didn’t get it till February 6th. And then it was copied to both the staff director and the general counsel of the agency. And I think, as I said before, I think that was intended and received as a message. Like, we’re watching you. So this person is the first to go. And if you don’t make sure that she’s out of the building, then other people could follow. And I was subsequently cut off from my email. I was removed from all, I couldn’t get access to the databases. They decommissioned the chip in my ID that allowed me access to building. I was given a little bit of time to clear out my office, which was nice, I guess. But It was, I was not surprised to be removed by the president, but I thought that what would happen would be that I would be replaced in the normal course as would have been consistent with the law. But that is not in fact what happened. And by the way, the other, another ramification of all of these firings is that it’s a death by decapitation of various agencies, including the FEC. The FEC is supposed to have six commissioners, four is a quorum, and now it’s down to two. All of the Republican commissioners left this year, one to join the administration, one to go into private practice, one run for Congress. And then I was fired, so they don’t have a quorum and there are no nominations pending. So this is another way that the president fails in his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. That’s the sentence that the originalists don’t quote quite so often, also from the Constitution. But Congress set up this agency. They set it up in particular as a bipartisan body. And if the president can just fire people willy nilly so that there is no functional quorum, the agency can’t enforce the law. It can’t interpret the law, it can’t do. Anything that it’s any of its major important jobs and and the FEC is not the only commission that’s been effectively decommissioned You know, the NLRB I think is in the same situation. There are probably others. I think the CPSC maybe lacks a quorum, too
Melissa Murray But Ellen, this is so interesting. I mean, the point about dismantling by decapitation. So Ramon Martinez in the argument said that this case was basically moot because the administration wasn’t going to enforce it. He might have actually been exactly right, but for a different reason. Like, they’re not going to force it because there’s not going be an FEC.
Kate Shaw Yeah, I think, or he’s doubly right for even more reasons that he was identifying. But when you were talking, Ellen, it made me think that their effort to completely sort of slash and burn federal government under the leadership of Elon Musk and Doge was actually pretty unpopular in certain respects. But I wonder whether this reflects a kind of effort to, in more kind of genteel-looking ways, like to just exercise the president’s rightful article to power, but essentially get to the same place, which is. Agencies that can do none of the work that congress empowered them to do and that the people often really need um to go back to the first thing you said to do things like protect consumers prevent corporate consolidation protect laborers Um and so much more so um before we go ellen as you know This is our favorite things episode and as we’ve already said Agency independence and campaign finance regulation are among our favorite. Things and dismantling them is one of our least favorite things So we’ve covered some of that ground. We now wanna invite you to share with our listeners some of your favorite things.
Ellen Weintraub Well, I’m sorry that Leah’s not here because I actually have some recommendations for her because like her, I like a good mystery. Oh, good. She’ll listen, don’t worry. For Leah, some of the series that I’ve been listening to or reading that have given me a little bit of joy this year are the Veronica Speedwell series from Deanna Rayburn, which is just very diverting, shall we say. An Australian series by an author named Benjamin Stevenson that starts off with a book called Everyone in My Family Has Killed Someone. And it is quite saying- It’s a good title. It’s funny. It’s, as I said, diverting. I’m reading the latest Louise Penny, The Black Wolf. She’s always wonderful. And then on a more serious note, I listened to the audio version of Judy Dench’s memoir, Shakespeare, The Man Who Pays the Rent, which I found. You know, just wonderful and lovely for Shakespeare lovers out there. This is Happiness by Neil Williams, set in a little Irish town, very transporting. Anything by Amor Tolles and Elizabeth Strout, I would recommend. And I also recommend Getting Out Into the Fresh Air. I did some travel this year, saw animals, went on a safari with my daughter, and that was really special. Does Judi Dench read her own memoir? Actually, she doesn’t because her eyesight isn’t very good anymore, but they found an actress who sounds like her to read it, so you feel like it’s her reading it. There are some excerpts. There are a few little sections of her reading things, but the rest of it is an actress who sounds Judy Dench reading Judy Dencher’s memoir. It’s still good. It’s fun to listen to. There’s a dupe for everything. Great.
Kate Shaw All right, well, Ellen Weintraub, thank you so much.
Ellen Weintraub Happy holidays, stay strong, be well.
Kate Shaw Thank you.
Melissa Murray Before we take off, let’s do a little housekeeping.
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Kate Shaw Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production, hosted and executive produced by Leah Litman, Melissa Murray and me, Kate Shaw. Produced and edited by Melody Rowell, Michael Goldsmith is our associate producer, Jordan Thomas is our intern, audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landes, music by Eddie Cooper, production support from Katie Long and Adriene Hill, Matt DeGroot is our head of production, and thanks to our digital team, Ben Hethcoat, Joe Matoski and Johanna Case. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Subscribe to Strict Scrutiny on YouTube to catch full episodes. Find us at youtube.com slash at Strict Scrutiny podcast. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us, it really helps.
