Ira, Louis, and guest host Sam Sanders discuss the election results, Grammy noms and snubs, Emilia Perez, Conclave, Nicole Scherzinger’s social media blunder, and Threads versus Bluesky. Jennifer Grey joins to discuss her new film A Real Pain, memories of her father in Wicked, and more.

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Ira Madison III And we are back with an all new episode of Keep It. We’re not yet in Trump’s America, but last week’s episode um I got a lot of beautiful DMS, by the way, and just comments in person from people that I ran into, friends and strangers who were actually very happy that we recorded our episode, as we usually do on Tuesday. And it came out Wednesday and people were like, It was so pleasant to listen to your episode and like, hear you two still living in a world where there was hope, where you believed that Kamala Harris had won. Anyway, I’m Ira Madison, the third. Welcome back to Keep It.

 

Louis Virtel I’m Louis Virtel. And can you take us back there? I was lovin it. Tuesday land? Let’s go.

 

Ira Madison III We were really like, hey, you know, the election’s going to take a long time. You know, we’ll find out the results later thinking that it’s still Covid and everybody’s emailing inside. I had a friend visiting. Our friend Joaquin.

 

Louis Virtel Oh Ferrara? Atlanta’s own. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, he came in town to see some shows and he was like hoping that it would be just like last time on Saturday there’d be a celebration in New York and instead just depressed at Sunset Boulevard.

 

Louis Virtel Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Right. For many reasons, which we’ll get into later. But I want to welcome our guest this week, the fantastic Sam Sanders, who is here, you’re a return guest. And I also have to say, every time you come here, you’ve got a new show.

 

Sam Sanders Girl I’m trying to send my two children through school and by two children, I mean, my two pit bulls, they’re expensive. I got to stay employed. I have a job as like a Jamaican girl. I’m working.

 

Ira Madison III I’m working. Well, this new one is The Sam Sanders Show, which is on Casey. Our W. Yeah. And tell us about, you know, conceiving this show and what led to it.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. You know, so I’ve been covering all kinds of things for a long time. Breaking news, politics, culture, race, music, entertainment. And I wanted this show to really just be about, like, the fun shit that we’re doing in our free time. The TV. I like the movies. I like the books I like, and the creatives who make it and kind of getting into what makes them tick. So for instance, we had Sasheer Zamata on the show talking about how the queerness of her characters on screen kind of foreshadowed her own coming out. I had Brian Jordan Alvarez talk about English teacher on Fox and making the move from short form social media to like a full blown show. Joel Kim Booster was on talking about how fame just changes you. And so it’s a lot of pop culture, but a lot of also talking with creatives about what it means to be a creative. So I love it. And this show as a special bonus, it’s on YouTube as well. We got a whole set in a studio and these guests come in in person and it adds a whole new layer of fun. I really like it. So that show drops episodes every Friday on YouTube and in podcast feeds. And then you can also hear it on the radio if you’re in L.A. on Casey. RW. And then of course, I still host my show Vibe Check with my dear Girlies, Zach Stafford and say, Jones So yeah, I’m busy. Check me in the podcasts. Wednesdays and Fridays, twice a week. Double the fun you should attend.

 

Louis Virtel I mean what we’re really doing here is inviting competition onto the show, and I don’t know if it’s in keeping your enemies close thing or whatever, but just know that I’m not intimidated and I won’t be cowed.

 

Sam Sanders Y’all are the blueprint, the original DNA. Listen, I remember. I remember like, well, for years I’ve been a fan and listening. But there was a point in my life where I was making the long road trip from L.A. to San Antonio, Texas, like several times a year. And y’all got me through Arizona,.

 

Louis Virtel Oh Jesus.

 

Sam Sanders More times than you know, so thank you for your service.

 

Louis Virtel Oh God. I mean, I mean, maybe put that on my tombstone. We got somebody through Arizona. I mean.

 

Sam Sanders You got us through Arizona, yeah you did.

 

Ira Madison III Maybe Kamala should have been listening, Wooh.

 

Sam Sanders Listen, can I tell you my dumb ass was like, This election is going to take a while. I should just distract myself. Election night. I’m going to go to the movies with a friend. Guess what we went to go see on election night?

 

Louis Virtel Conclave? Smile Two?

 

Ira Madison III Sure.

 

Sam Sanders Bad vibes for an election night. Bad vibes.

 

Ira Madison III A very calm, low vibes, though, you know, like the smiling, the laughing, the is ball of it all.

 

Louis Virtel I also like how after the election like, you know, she lost. And then the next picture we got of her was playing connect four and my brain went to her brain is deteriorated so much from this experience that she is reduced to Milton Bradley games with plastic pieces. But apparently she was just. Playing with our nieces.

 

Sam Sanders And the easiest of the board games.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in this post Election haze, it’s interesting to be back in New York where I was after the 2016 election, but I don’t know how it feels for you to obviously, you know, there’s a lot of work to do, etc., and people will be talking about that ad nauseum. They’re also constantly talking about what went wrong on every side because everyone loves to, you know, pull up their sports analysis, you know, whiteboard.

 

Louis Virtel And pretend like it was so obvious in retrospect.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, right. Right. You know, and I don’t know, how does this one feel for you, too? Because, I mean, honestly, you know, there was the sadness that set in. But then also, I did this in 2016, you know, like I’m not here ready to hear about the like what went wrong, like 24 seven. And then I’m also like, not about to jump into like resistance slam poetry, responding to Trump or whatever.

 

Louis Virtel You just got here and get back at the mike.

 

Sam Sanders I mean, I guess for me, it’s like two big things. A lot of my liberal friends online are like full a death spiral pain. And I’m just like, Y’all do know he hasn’t taken office yet. Pace yourself. It’s going to be four years and it hasn’t even begun. Some remind people around me like it’s going to be a marathon, not a race. We have the toolkit. We know what to do, but you can’t spin yourself out now, right? So that’s the first thing. And when I see people spiraling online, I’m just like. Pace yourself. Pace yourself. Pace yourself. Second thing is, just like the only postmortem we need to have about this entire election is Joe Biden. Like the fact that Kamala wasn’t allowed to make a clean break from Joe Biden is the reason she lost. That’s it.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders And I don’t think we need to do any more hand-wringing than that.

 

Louis Virtel Also, this might be a cynical response on my part, but like, I feel like part of the hand-wringing is talking about what kind of messaging didn’t get through. And then I always think, but 92% of black women still voted for Kamala Harris. So some messaging got to somebody, you know what I mean? Exactly. So it’s like there’s like the largest, you know, white men still want to believe Trump. I mean, like that’s it’s a pull. It’s a it’s a charisma bad thing.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah, Well, it’s also this thing where it’s like this was the first election where, like, the Right actually won media, you know, for 20 years, the right has said let’s controls media. The left controls Hollywood and the elites. But the right has secretly built this media mano sphere, alt right tech sphere where every space that we think is dominant, there’s an alternative right wing space to answer to it. And they won that and they won podcast and they won YouTube. And that’s how they won. Like everyone knows, we’re not being like Kamala is brash. She’s going to win. Not even knowing the podcasts that Trump went on that had like 10 million young male white viewers. That’s where it’s at, right?

 

Ira Madison III First of all, Kamala is Brat. Okay, Let’s talk about brat sales in general. You know, like, okay, yeah, we should have had tree paint working on the campaign. Right. Yeah, I think it was Cobbler’s era store. Yeah, let’s do that.

 

Sam Sanders I think liberals don’t realize how how much of the things that they thought were cool and dominant were actually niche. Charlie calls herself niche and to think that that’s going to win an election, No, it’s like the biggest pop stars of our day are Morgan Whalen and Post Malone. You know, so even in that regard, the left doesn’t see things clearly. You know, they’re still sitting here thinking that, like, if we just get Lin-Manuel Miranda back doing the right song, like it’s so dated and I never I never thought that I would say that about the Democrats and the left, because we’ve been told for decades that they run the media, not this new media They don’t.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah not too much on my king Lin-Manuel though he did blurbed my book. Okay okay okay here. He loves my book and I love him.

 

Louis Virtel He did deserve the Oscar for the moment. A song, too, I have to say he should. He should be an Egot winner. I have to say. I agree. Also seem honestly seems like a nice guy anyway.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah, he’s great. And I also want to say as people are relitigating 2062 and talking about some of the corny stuff that we’ve done that we don’t want to repeat misses it early. Keep it. I like the people who want to jump online and suddenly all of a sudden pretend just because they hate the way that Hamilton got mixed in with, you know, resistance, social media, etc. we’re not going to pretend that Hamilton is bad, okay? Like there are people who want to jump up and be it. Right. And but there are people like to jump up and be like, so when are we going to admit now that like, Hamilton wasn’t a good musical? It was So it’s a good musicals.

 

Louis Virtel Things where I just need everybody who’s my age Exactly. To take the word cringe out of their vocabulary. Now, what do you think of it? You know what I mean? It’s like, that’s not a point of view. You just saying I’m better than this thing and I get to act embarrassed. About it is not instructive. It’s not there’s nothing you’re not saying, Well.

 

Ira Madison III You know who has no shame and does not cringe like the fucking. Right?

 

Louis Virtel No kidding. There’s no such thing as cringe.

 

Sam Sanders They’re just winning.

 

Ira Madison III You look at their podcast, they’re just doing it. You write them every time you post a thing where it’s like Ben Shapiro embarrassed by, you know, like whatever. 25 blue haired college students that you get to go and tap buzzers. I keep seeing those videos online and I want them to go away. I know.

 

Louis Virtel And they’re structured like a game show, which is so offensive to me. Like, I want things like this to be fun.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. But realizing that they’ve won the media game is also realizing that, like, whenever you’re posting about like them being owned by someone or like they’re not showing something that you think has embarrassed them, they’re actually publicity embarrassing. It’s publicity. Publicizing them and their side doesn’t see it as an embarrassment.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. Yeah. And like, their side is watching them for hours a day. There’s some new data coming out I was reading and news out of this morning like maybe a third of Americans are still getting their news from the news. And the rest, folks, it’s trickling down. They’re getting it from YouTube, Tik Tok and their friends.

 

Louis Virtel From creative writers, shall we say. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III News, John? Yeah. So who’s who’s reading the news or watching the news? Like the people aren’t even working there. So you think we have big audience shares, YouTube, TikTok, all these things? Yeah. I mean, it’s just this insistence to, like, you know, cling to old forms of media, even new forms of media that are old forms of media. Specifically, like how many people, even legacy journalists, right. Are still Onex, which is basically Elon Musk. Yeah. Like propaganda tool. It’s you’re, you’re you’re not getting any of your message out. The rest of it outside of your bubble of you know maybe gays or media you follow and thirst traps you see like everyone else on ads like is getting the Republican talking points like how many times you just scroll through anything and you just see ads for Trump all day?

 

Sam Sanders Exactly. Well, and then it’ll be like these, like resistance, blue wave liberal still on Twitter post and shit like. And the 73 million people who voted for him are all racist. It’s like, okay, you can say that, but what is it doing? Where’s your message going? It’s just it means nothing. And I think, like the reality that a lot of the left is going to have to face is that they have been shouting at walls for the last 2 or 3 years, thinking that it’s like resonating.

 

Louis Virtel And not even Tim Walls. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Who did Who did it here? Yes.

 

Sam Sanders I had this fight with someone the other day that they’re like, well, we have to admit that it’s 73 million Americans are racist and this and that and that. It’s like you can say that. But do you want to win? Do you want to win? Democrats and liberals have convinced themselves that they’re right and they just shout that over and over to each other. Meanwhile, the right is just trying to win elections.

 

Ira Madison III And, you know, there’s there’s less infighting, etc.. You didn’t realize that, like, you may hate somebody, but I still need to sell these books.

 

Sam Sanders There you go. There you.

 

Ira Madison III Go. Racist could go buy my book on sale. February 4th, 2020. My God. Jay Weathers. All right, Sam, I’m so excited for you to be here. Yeah, sorry for that.

 

Sam Sanders Way into politics, but I had to get off my chest because.

 

Louis Virtel I also we specifically kept this in the intro because we have things like Grammy nominations to discuss and real leaders like Nicole Scherzinger to get into.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I love it. Yeah. So the Grammy nominations are here. We’re going to discuss those. We’re also going to talk about some of the hottest new movies that are out on continuing our awards campaign season coverage. We have Amelia Perez out, which is controversial as the straight as the streets are saying. Yes. And also, conclave is out. The the Vatican is abuzz. Okay. So.

 

Sam Sanders Bay, Pope Bay, we love.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. So we’ll talk about those films and some other films that we’ve seen recently, too. Also, our guest this week that Lewis and I spoke to is Jennifer Gray. You know her from Dirty Dancing and Ferris Bueller, obviously. But she is starring in Jesse Eisenberg’s new film, Our Real Pain alongside Jesse and Kieran Culkin. And the movie is fantastic.

 

Louis Virtel It’s going to be an Oscars player, I believe, too, and in a subtle, touching, unpretentious way that it’s it’s a lovely wisp of a movie.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. So we will be right back with more keeping. If you want a quick, easy and digestible way to absorb the latest news, try giving What A Day Crooked’s Daily podcast a listen. Jane coaston does an amazing job keeping you updated on all the top headlines. It’s available every morning, Monday through Friday with a deep dive episodic series every Saturday. Make sure to subscribe to What A Day wherever you get your podcasts. Last week made me question this whole let everyone vote thing. But thankfully, we’re approaching another race. That’s always been great to Black women. Sorry, my organs jumped out of my body. Of course. I’m talking about the Grammys, which just announced this year’s nominees. The top girls like Sabrina Carpenter and Chappell, Roan and Charli XCX scored big, while Ariana Grande de Dua, Lipa and others missed out. And of course, we are headed right into another Taylor Swift versus Beyoncé match up for album of the year.

 

Louis Virtel Let me just say in general that the choices for album of the year and record in song. Rarely do we get so much of the gay afterparty YouTube situation. I got a lot of Sabrina, a lot of Billie Eilish, a lot of Charli execs. Taylor, if you play her. Not really my household. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel But Beyonce too. So in a way, it feels like this is Twitter’s, if you will, Grammys.

 

Sam Sanders Totally. Well, and you know, I remember when the Sabrina Carpenter album came out, everyone was just like, this is bubblegum pop. Espresso is a bubblegum song. It’s filler. And then we heard the album and we’re like, this is really good pop music To see the Recording Academy respect really good pop music. I like that. I think the nomination that I was most heartened by was Sabrina Carpenter’s for Album of the Year because it’s not pretending to be anything else besides really fun, good pop music. She’s like, Here, take it. And the Academy was like, It’s really good, girl.

 

Louis Virtel And they’re like, And there’s an element of wit that really does elevate that album, too. And by the way, the lyrics are great to finish, you know, And it’s also a very varied album while remaining in this like cocoon of distinctly pop music too. It’s not pretentious in any way, but has a lot going on.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah, and the wordplay is so smart. It is a smart pop album, and I think that the Academy of ten years ago just would never take good pop that seriously. And they did this year. And I appreciate that. I appreciate it.

 

Ira Madison III Well, it also has to be said that the album is nominated, but, you know, it is also one of two album of the year nominations for Jack Antonoff. So I believe that the, you know, the acceptance of the pop music is also just the Academy being like, well, there’s Jack again. Let’s give him a nomination.

 

Louis Virtel Perhaps, perhaps. That said, I have to say, when Taylor Swift is nominated for Album of the Year, which as you know, is every single year since 1967, a part of you has to wonder is, are people just casually is going to vote yes again for it? She’s won it four times, which is, you know, more than anybody. She has more than Stevie Wonder at this point, which is wild. It’s very crazy if we’re talking about sales. And this is obviously an industry oriented award, I’m worried she’s going to win it again. I’m worried. And and and like then, of course, the placement of Cowboy Carter, which is an album that I think we all really like, it was more ambitious than we expected. A lot is going on that we love about that album, but maybe we like 15 of the 22 tracks, so I’m feeling like her standing is like making me a little nauseous right now.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah, I don’t feel like Beyonce is going to win the year for this one. And it’s like Carmella’s lack of Carmella’s lack of being elected is reminding me never to trust the voting body is to respect the output of black women. But I also think it’s like if, you know, everyone’s talking about, Beyonce got 11 nominations for Cowboy Carter the most for a single album ever. I don’t mean nothing. And she got nine for Renaissance. And that was a better album, in my opinion. I think at this point, the Recording Academy likes to give Beyoncé as many nominations as possible to distract from the fact that they’re never going to give her the big award. And this speaks to just the structural racism of that voting body. You know, it is still an academy composed of older white men who really think that black women and black music belong in their spot, which is, you know, usually not the main categories, not winning those. And so I, I don’t I don’t have my hopes up at all. And I think that, like, the Academy honestly thinks at this point that they’ve done enough for Beyonce.

 

Ira Madison III They they think they have said that they’ve said yeah I think there was a well last year you know when someone copied, you know, the brutally honest ballads that always come out for the Academy Awards, Someone did that for the Grammys. And I believe there was someone who said, you know, well, we’ve given her enough, you know, and she’s nominated every year. And it feels like it’s supposed to be an event and we’re supposed to just give it to our and then they vote for Taylor Swift. And it’s like, can you not say the same thing for her? Even though the album’s a little bit, you hand it to her and then this would be. Air is toward everything on top of it. It’s, you know, it’s like that’s four billboards up for, you know, the Grammy should represent a little something else. And personally, I would not give album of the year to Cowboy Carter. I would give a country album. I think that would be a good for you to the CMA. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the Grammys would like to do a fuck you to them anyway. I would honestly give it to Hit Me Hard and Soft. By Billie Eilish. I am still just like humming on that album. Yeah, Wildflower is still hooked in me. It’s it’s, it’s, I think it’s, you know, sort of her magnum opus.

 

Sam Sanders It’s so good. I think the album that wowed me the most this year was Not Brat, but the Brat remix album. I love.

 

Louis Virtel The Japanese song. I love that.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. And it pushed the boundaries of what dance and pop can sound like, so it felt like the bravest of the year. But I just don’t think Charli XCX is big enough to win that big award.

 

Louis Virtel Madison If I had to pick a winner in the Album of the year category, I’m going to go Chapel Road. And I’ll say this about her one. I feel like the Grammys love upstart singer songwriter. They a lot of best new artist winners tend to be that you know the Norah Jones is just it goes back and back like look look at the the award Carly Simon It goes back and back. I feel like the Grammys love to be a part of a current moment that is also attached to the past. And I feel like her singer songwriter instincts make Grammy voters who are old and I think probably mostly white feel like they aren’t being left behind. And the example I always think of is when Lauryn Hill won album of the year. Yeah, that was new music, that was neo soul and R&B, etc. But then the chorus of doo wop, that thing is a 60s girl group sounding song. So the Grammys feel like, this is for me too. Even though it’s a new thing. And I feel like Chapel Alone represents that dichotomy that well.

 

Sam Sanders And so much of Chaperons album is giving you 80s wave energy.

 

Louis Virtel It’s very.

 

Sam Sanders Nostalgic, very throwback. You know, it’s funny, I was thinking she was going to go crazy at this year’s Grammys, but the last few weeks and months, she’s kind of just been, no pun intended, a brat in public. And she has.

 

Ira Madison III To saying that, as she would say, I.

 

Sam Sanders Know, but like she has not like this is the thing. It’s like, which of these artists plays the game because it’s all a game. And in the same way that these actors have to campaign for months to get their Oscars. There’s a certain campaigning that happens for the Grammys, and Taylor does that really well. Beyoncé never does it. And it seems like Chapel right now is doing the opposite of campaigning. She’s just like trying to be a brat. So I don’t know how much that matters as well.

 

Ira Madison III I will say, though, that this will I mean, obviously the sales of the album continue to rise even amidst, you know, her alleged bad behavior this summer. And I will also say the nominations also confirm that people are still fans of Chappell. I really think her winning, you know, album of the year would also go a long way towards just setting people up online because the party line seems to be she’s ungrateful, you know, she like is not going to have a long career in the industry or she keeps acting like that, you know. But every time you talk to other artists in the industry, they’re on her side. You listen to Stevie Nicks talking about her. She’s like her schedule was crazy. She needs a new team and then she gets a new team, you know? And so I wonder if we know how artists feel, you know, like. You know, gilded, you know, in cages, sort of like they are appreciating her candor. And I wonder if the rest of the industry sort of feels that way or if some of the older men in the industry are feeling the way that people are online, sort of like, well, she should stop talking, you know, like just be quiet and be happy. So I think that whether or not she wins will go a long way towards telling us how she is perceived by the industry at large, like the people making the decisions.

 

Sam Sanders Exactly. I also think that, like, the proof is in the pudding. She’s an incredibly gifted songwriter. There are no skips on that album. She writes hooks that are larger than life. Yes, these songs are so good. Of all of the nominees for Best album. I find chaperons songwriting to be the most, the sharpest.

 

Louis Virtel Those songs are sharp and least contrived to like she just is herself, you know?

 

Sam Sanders Yes. Yes. And so I. I think she has a long career ahead of her. I think that, like, she makes music that appeals to people from like all generations because this is pop that feels very modern, but it’s harkening back to the 80s and it still works. So I’m not worried about her. And I think if she loses a bunch of Grammys, it just ups her mystique.

 

Louis Virtel I also think the only time I’m like, You’re just saying, IRA, like, how is all of this? How how is all of her rancor registering with everybody? The only time I’ve taken a step back and looked askance at her was when there was some article about how she switched management and then she responded to the article. You’re losers for posting this or something. It’s like, well, it is music news and you’re a huge artist. Like, they’re not they’re not losers for reporting the news.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Speaking of Chapel, she’s also nominated for Best New Artist. Let’s run these down and see who. That’s the.

 

Sam Sanders Curse. That every word is a curse.

 

Louis Virtel I know. Mark Cohn. We speak her.

 

Ira Madison III Name.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. Yeah. That award is a curse.

 

Louis Virtel Arrested Development. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Well, better known as nominated. I still don’t.

 

Sam Sanders Know what a Benson Boone is.

 

Ira Madison III I couldn’t get him on Instagram.

 

Louis Virtel We used to drink rats and bones in college. You could sneak them into your. Into your dorm.

 

Ira Madison III That is a good looking white man. Okay, okay. Let’s just say that about the ad, He loves doing his back flips, too. It’s very, you know, very, like, gymnast oriented behavior, which I feel like. You love Louis.

 

Louis Virtel All right, all right. Speak my name.

 

Ira Madison III Moving on. Okay. Sabrina Carpenter is nominated. You know Drew Barrymore in Never Been Kissed, is it? She should dress up like her at the awards ceremony because it Girl, your sixth album.

 

Sam Sanders This is a sixth album also. Same for Crank Ben, who was nominated. I’ve been listening to Crunk Ben for ten years and they’re up for best New Artist.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Well, this is not new.

 

Ira Madison III Doritos, of course.

 

Louis Virtel So I don’t.

 

Ira Madison III Know who.

 

Louis Virtel That is. Of course, Shelby Lynne won Best New Artist and I think 2001, and she was on her 13th album at the time. So it’s this weird calculus they do about Are you popular enough to even be noticed?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Ray is nominated. This would be I mean, I love Ray. I will be around for a while, too. For her. Yes. And she might not be around for a minute because I don’t know if you saw that news report that her car was broken into recently. As always happens with our pop girls. Her car was broken into and her laptop was stolen with, you know, like a music for her new album on it.

 

Sam Sanders If they don’t start storing this stuff in the cloud, put.

 

Ira Madison III It in the cloud, put it in the.

 

Louis Virtel Bank here again, in case, my God, don’t we own safes anymore?

 

Sam Sanders Then this happened to someone else recently, I think I was like, I lost my album. Like, what is happening?

 

Ira Madison III It happened a lot to this happened to Charlie, actually. It happens to the girls. So Boosie is nominated. He is.

 

Louis Virtel Still a.

 

Ira Madison III Number. One year is still number one.

 

Louis Virtel It’s like 70.

 

Sam Sanders Has been number one for like 17 weeks. It’s insane. And also reminds me and makes me know that like that billboard Hot 100, it doesn’t work anymore. It doesn’t work anymore. I’m sorry.

 

Ira Madison III People are listening to it.

 

Sam Sanders Because they put it on for their toddlers in the backseat. It’s Kidz BOP.

 

Louis Virtel I think the old math for Billboard was also insane. And not that I trust this anymore, but you’re right. I don’t look at the chart anymore and think, this is representative of what quote unquote we are all listening to.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, we need to. I know it didn’t work. We really do. That was the.

 

Sam Sanders Truth. This chart didn’t work. I was in Texas with good friends and their five year old kid, and we’re driving somewhere to do something and they just played shabu. Ze is a bar song tipsy for like ten times as we drove, and I know the kid likes it. That’s why that song is number one. This has become a Kidz BOP hit like that. So what that song is.

 

Ira Madison III Maybe there is something to be said. Not at this time, but you know, I’m just ruminating, you know, about black men experimenting in country music and it becoming very popular on the charts, but then also doubling as kids bought music for, you know, white parents to let their kids. Yes. Like play. Remember Nelly, I’m the one Nelly was doing country. Well, I’m talking specifically about Old Town rock, right?

 

Sam Sanders That was the Kids BOP song.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, that was a kid. You are. And it’s We found a new way to placate America with the image of black men by sticking them in a cowboy hat and some boots and, you know.

 

Sam Sanders Magical country.

 

Louis Virtel Negroes. You think Qaboos the issue, baby shark.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, well, if if we should start, should we start covering country on this podcast board? I mean, there’s been a lot of said post-election about getting people on the right to listen. And, you know, if we just cover country music, I’m all I can.

 

Louis Virtel Do with Kacey Musgraves. I’m trying to think of who else I can do a little Miranda Lambert, otherwise.

 

Ira Madison III Listen to Post album. I you know what also I have? I love his song with Morgan Wallen. Okay.

 

Louis Virtel It’s time you need something. You had some help, motherfucker.

 

Ira Madison III You know what? I would. I would. I would shake Morgan Wallen’s hand if I saw him in public.

 

Louis Virtel That’s not an option. That’s not how people really greet each other.

 

Ira Madison III Shake the man. Shake, shake that man’s hand, Daddy, and be on your way. I would shake his hair. Okay. Why not?

 

Sam Sanders Why not?

 

Louis Virtel By the way, which.

 

Sam Sanders Of these nominations most surprised, Joe?

 

Louis Virtel Let’s see here. Well, I’ll say that best pop solo performance is the best category, and I never think it usually boils down to that being the most interesting part of an awards ceremony. So Beyoncé Bodyguard. Sabrina Carpenter S-presso. Charli XCX, Apple. Billie Eilish. Birds of a feather and chaperon. Good luck, babe. I mean, that’s a five way argument. That’s like an Oscars race. I would be excited to follow all season, and I think I would pick Espresso by Sabrina since it’s the most sort of like take over Pop Moment of the Mile and like the definitive summer song. But. I don’t think she has it in the bag.

 

Sam Sanders No, I just want to rant and say that like if Beyoncé had just made some videos. Bodyguard is the best Beyoncé single in years. It’s such a great song. Had she made a video for that? Had she made a video for, What is it, two Most Wanted? Yes. So, girl, you could have run up and down these.

 

Louis Virtel Charts all the time.

 

Ira Madison III But she just.

 

Sam Sanders Doesn’t do anymore. She really is like, My God is so good. And no visual. Then you give me that fake visual the day before the election. Remember that little video posted?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. With her being Pamela Anderson from Barb Wire. That’s right. Meanwhile, I was just side note to that. Like she posted. There was a clip posted of the barbed wire scene where, you know, Pamela shoots someone and they shoot. She shoot them nine times. Then there the prints that she also went out for Halloween, recreating the 1999 cover. And then she also rudely went as Pamela Anderson at the 99 No Visual Awards. I know. That’s. Come on. I don’t appreciate her, you know, making us get into numerology like the Swifties because nine, of course, at three will be her ninth studio album. And I’m like, if you’re not even giving me videos, I’m not playing games with you. Okay? Like, I’m not solving your riddle.

 

Louis Virtel Don’t give us a Sudoku. I just have nothing left to solve with you.

 

Ira Madison III If you want to talk about surprises. I was shocked. Pleasantly shocked at best. Dance Pop recording a nomination for Madison Beer’s Make You.

 

Louis Virtel Mine, which we do.

 

Ira Madison III That song is a bang. Yes. Okay. And tried and to.

 

Louis Virtel And he lost to Kylie Minogue last year. Like a good gay man. That’s how it works. You’ll do it again, Romeo.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders You know, some people are like mad that Ariana Grande didn’t get more nominations, but I kind of feel like Ariana didn’t care about that album either. She just put it out okay. I like it, too. But she was just like, okay, there you go. So, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Well, honestly.

 

Sam Sanders We’re really worried about.

 

Louis Virtel It. Honestly, as we’ll get into with our movie discussion, it feels like this is a light year for movies. Like Not a Lot is coming out that is terribly prestigious. I think she has a chance with Wicked. I think people are really responding to her, so maybe she’ll make up for it there.

 

Sam Sanders I’m hearing that there’s some Oscar buzz for her, you know? Yeah. And I also feel like her energy is moving into that world, which is fine, because don’t forget, she’s a Disney girl. She knows how to, like, read some lines.

 

Ira Madison III Well, she’s not in danger of losing the Selena Gomez, I’ll tell you that. But we’ll. We’ll get to Amelia Perez later. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders I will say, for Emilia Perez, they did finally unwired Selena’s jaw, which is wired shut for only murders. She talks to, like, the smallest crack in her mouth for only murders. It’s called police.

 

Louis Virtel Only murmurs in the building is the joke you were looking for.

 

Ira Madison III And now. So. Yeah. Okay. There we go.

 

Sam Sanders Whereas at least in the media, her mouth is open.

 

Ira Madison III I think that obviously record of the year is going to have to be in doubt. Like us. Mexico Bar. What are you talking about? A song that has sort of taken over the year and things on the charts. That is a song that everyone listen. So I don’t think you might get that one, but I think he’s going to get best at least a hip hop song.

 

Sam Sanders yeah. The thing about that song is like, You love it. You’re rocking with it. And then you realize at a certain point, are the kids who like this song Scream Certified pedophile. And that’s weird. It’s still weird for me. Whenever I see the videos of the kids doing that, I’m like, This is strange. And I can’t see Academy voters saying, This is the song of the year.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, it’s just the new stranger danger. Shout it when you see a van coming.

 

Louis Virtel This is their version of Kidz BOP. It’s the new Dare program. There you go. Yeah. But by the way, the Beatles being nominated in here for that, like, assisted song that is like the shittiest nomination in five years. Ain’t nobody listened to that song. And they do not need to be nominated for record of the year for that.

 

Ira Madison III They snuck that in because he died. Yeah, I saw that because Quincy Jones got a hot tub on the mic and said, Fuck the Beatles. Yeah. Not Ringo’s work.

 

Louis Virtel Anyone.

 

Ira Madison III But yeah, that’s a lazy sort of nomination. And also would not be shocked if it won.

 

Louis Virtel I’m looking at these. I think Record of the year is much like there to be someone like Chappell around.

 

Sam Sanders I think Chapel could do well. And Record of the year and Song of the Year. Album of the year is still a big old toss up. But I think for a lot of academy voters, recording academy voters, chapel, like you’re saying, Louis allows them to feel like they’re supporting something current, but also still allows them to feel as if they’re supporting a classic singer songwriter.

 

Louis Virtel Obviously, a couple of years ago, when Billie Eilish won for her, when we all Fall Asleep, where do we go? That was one of the few times where I think she was so huge and so new and not old in any way that voters just that if we don’t vote for this, we’re going to seem out of touch. So I kind of like that self-consciousness about them. In that case, there’s a chance they can dial into Brat as a one word phenomenon that did sort of catch on. But I feel like they respect Chapel a little bit more.

 

Sam Sanders They do. I also feel like Charlie six is like. One of those are whistles that only people under a certain age can hear. I like. I do not think that the older man in the academy.

 

Louis Virtel You are totally right. I can’t picture them listening to it at all.

 

Sam Sanders Whereas Chapel, they’re like, I get this right. But they don’t get that. They don’t get that.

 

Ira Madison III But I definitely believe Charlie will play the game and be, you know, at all of the surprises. Listen, she loves the photo there.

 

Sam Sanders She loves it. She’s going to show it.

 

Ira Madison III One thing I want to say about Howard Carter, though, is I love that, you know, the album, as we described an Americana album, we discussed it, and she got best Americana performance with Ya. Ya. I love that there are so many different categories of things that she’s nominated for with this album. That’s, I think, you know, one of the boons that comes out of this, whether or not she wins or not. It also introduced me to I love when they split up categories because like best melodic rap performance for spaghetti. What does that mean? Yes.

 

Sam Sanders Alongside melodic rap, the Nelly category. What the hell? Melodic rap.

 

Ira Madison III Well, that’s 3 a.m. Rapsody featuring Erykah Badu. Big Mama by Lotto. We Still Don’t Trust You, featuring Metro Boomin and Jordan Adetunji featuring Kalani melodic rap.

 

Sam Sanders Who knew? Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Who knew? I thought there was Prodigy, you know.

 

Louis Virtel Or the Madonna American Life album. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. I also think that, like the phenomenon of Cowboy Carter getting so many nominations in so many different categories speaks to why I did it feel as strongly about this album as I did. Renaissance. Renaissance felt so much more cohesive and have a singular vision. It was an hour long DJ dance set and it was just making you move. And Cowboy Carter felt like it was always pulling me in five directions at once and kind of exhausting me. I would do this thing where I try to play the whole thing, and by the time I got to Yaya, I’d be like tired, I’d be tired. Whereas when I would listen to Renaissance, I would in that hour of Renaissance Invigorated, it’s like Beyonce. They can throw everything at the kitchen sink or whatever the phrase is and do it well. But with this album I found it overwhelming and like scattered. If that makes.

 

Louis Virtel Sense. Yeah, I would describe it as jerky, like because some of the songs are short too. Yeah. So when you get like this, like Taste of One Style and then move on to another one quickly, it didn’t feel well. One cohesive, but like no momentum was building really. It just wanted to give you a piece of everything, which is good when it comes to the Grammys, because obviously there’s plenty of ways they can record these individual tracks. But as a listening experience, it is a bit much.

 

Ira Madison III Jerky, just like a roller coaster.

 

Sam Sanders Yes. Yes. Whereas I felt like a renaissance was a perfectly executed, singular vision. Which is why I think it more deserves album of the year.

 

Ira Madison III Can we just give it to that? Can we get rid of that over the year again?

 

Sam Sanders Give it the results.

 

Louis Virtel I’m still throwing rocks at Harry’s house, by the way.

 

Ira Madison III I’m sorry. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Also, can we just talk about how Eminem once again is up for best rap album? That man will never go away.

 

Louis Virtel And he’s he’s looking very kind of claymation at the moment with, like, dark black hair.

 

Sam Sanders Everyone says that he’s on Grinder.

 

Ira Madison III Is he? I don’t think he is. I think that’s a rumor. Allegedly he could be on it. It’s a quote from Star Jones, but I don’t believe it. I don’t see that.

 

Louis Virtel He’s not.

 

Ira Madison III Gay.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah, okay.

 

Ira Madison III I would know. Okay. It’s not.

 

Sam Sanders For me. He’s not for my sister.

 

Ira Madison III Anyway, is there any last thoughts that we have on the Grammys?

 

Sam Sanders You know, I am actually excited about the best alternative music album category because it has clear out faves of this year. Clairo and Brittany Howard. That Brittany Howard album was quite good. So yeah, I like all the folks that I think should get some shine. They got some shine. I don’t know who’s going to win big, but like I feel good that the folks that were honored were honored and folks who were like, well, do what? Lipa got no nominations. Fine. That album was.

 

Ira Madison III Bad. You know, this came out of your mouth. You like that album? I love I like one song. But this album. Okay. Okay, baby. There’s a lot of strokes on that album, okay? You know, it’s just like four grooves for grooving at home, you know, for adults doing adult thing. Okay.

 

Sam Sanders It’s clean. The house music. It’s clean. The house music.

 

Louis Virtel It wasn’t exactly giving Alia.

 

Ira Madison III The votes of rock. And you’re listening to future. You’re listening to I can’t even remember.

 

Louis Virtel You can’t even remember. I was like, telling.

 

Sam Sanders You the album.

 

Ira Madison III Ha ha ha ha ha. Radical optimism. There we go. B Extended version. Which is better? Yeah. Anyway, we will be right back with the fantastic Jennifer Gray. This week’s guest is not only a phenomenal actress who’s given us timeless performances in films like Dirty Dancing and Ferris Bueller’s Day Off. She’s also been in a very underrated sitcom that I personally watched every episode of. It’s like you now. She’s also a writer who penned the incredibly moving memoir Out of the Corner. And now, according to everyone who’s seen it, including us, you are a scene stealer. And Jesse Eisenberg’s A Real Pain, which is out in theaters now. Please welcome to Keep It Jennifer Gray.

 

Jennifer Gray Okay, dudes, seriously. I am done. I mean, that’s like that’s a lovely intro. I really feel like it’s I always want to under-promise overdeliver because I am not a scene stealer. I am literally a beautiful garnish on their incredible entree. I have just a beautiful lemon slice.

 

Louis Virtel Sprig of mint.

 

Jennifer Gray Yes. Yes. I’m just a sprig of something delightful, but I am really very not even tertiary. I’m like a forgery. I’m well down the line, so let’s just. Let’s just know that I’m grateful to be in this gorgeous movie.

 

Louis Virtel Well, this is such an interesting movie because it has these really strong personalities and yet it’s a very subdued movie. So it feels like it to strike a balance between, you know, exhibiting these big personality traits. And then also it’s this really contemplative film. So what was just the vibe on set, putting this movie together?

 

Jennifer Gray It was such a seamless and very fluid experience. I received the script with an offer. I saw who was involved. The cover letter was like, Jesse Eisenberg has written this script. I’m already in his directing it. Okay, great. Even better. He’s starring in it. Awesome. He’s wonderful. I just. I always feel safest with really smart people. And he’s. He’s. And there’s nobody smarter, in my opinion, right now. And then I saw and Kieran Culkin will be playing Benji, and I was like a crazy rabid succession fan and specifically a rabid fan of Kieran’s. Although we had never met. And so I was just in. And then they said, it shoots in Poland, which I’ve never been to, and will shoot part of the time in the concentration camp, which I’ve never been to. And as a Jew, I have always thought it was something I wanted to do, but it wasn’t something that I was never offered it. So then I went, Well, of course I’m going to do it. That everything it ticks all the boxes of a new experience. And then I read it and the script was perfect. I laughed out loud reading it. And then I was. I don’t know if I cried, but I felt deep feelings and I went, Well, this is like it was just like one of those things where, like, the heavens opened up and someone who in the in the universe who loves me very much said, Here, honey. Here. I’m going to give you this. This is a gift.

 

Ira Madison III That process sounds great. And also, it doesn’t surprise me, given that Jesse Eisenberg, I’ve seen his plays as well, him as a playwright and the dialog and the characters in this are just so well drawn. And that opening scene, you know, to describe it for everybody is you’re all going on a remembrance tour. You know, you’re going through Poland and you’re visiting a concentration camp and you’re all strangers. And so what was it like then, building, I guess, your chemistry on set, particularly with Kieran, because you have a lot of scenes with him.

 

Jennifer Gray It was like art imitating life or whichever way, whatever way it goes, because what we did was we were strangers. We were doing that first scene. We almost shot the movie chronologically. I mean, it’s very our first day was shooting that. But we all introduce ourselves to each other and, and, you know, immediately I, you know, overshare as I want to do in life. So I did that and I talked about how I just come out of this 20 year marriage that blew up and my husband left me and for some younger woman and I left my life in L.A. with, you know, my adult kids who’d all become like everyone had just become very bourgeois and kind of lost the plot. And I had my characters in this and Fletcher went were like, my life blew up and I put myself on this tour and put myself in a strange country knowing no one. And then I see this young man who is unfiltered and authentic. And I think that having been in this kind of cloistered Los Angeles life, which had felt very superficial and so she sees this guy and he’s just so real. It’s like a tonic for her. And then she’s like, Is anybody see me? And and who am I and my worth seeing? And he just sees her sadness and she feels so. Like a kindred spirit. And he’s so alive and he’s so honest. And it’s just everything that she needs at that moment in time.

 

Louis Virtel It’s interesting that you say that, though, because this character and even though he is unfiltered, he’s also like boisterous and like kind of says the wrong thing at length a lot of the time, like, he’ll take over our room at random. But your reaction to the character is so even Keel. Is that something you had to rehearse or did he have kind of like a natural charisma through all these weirdo character traits that you actually did respond to that way?

 

Jennifer Gray You know, it’s interesting. I feel that here in the actor. Is is like charisma incarnate. It’s just like he’s just got magic, like sparks flying off of him. And his lack of actor penis, his lack of. He’s just. He just. He really is just raw and himself and he’s just not full of shit. And it just so refreshing. So when he is out of place or he’s socially very he’s he’s very he doesn’t have the social protocol. And I think because my character is also a mother and I’m a mother, that motherly and empathetic part of myself is really in play and really feeling him and seeing his pain and seeing him as someone who is hurting and needs like maybe someone who is not mothered is my feeling. You know, what if I just think that people if you have if they’re resonating with your soul, which he does care and does with me and the character does with my character, they’re both happening. And all I could see is. I’m curious. And I also feel protective of him.

 

Ira Madison III For such a serious film. It’s also incredibly funny. And I want to ask you, I guess, where you first developed your sense of humor, your comic timing. I mean, for anyone who’s sinuous Jenny Bueller, I mean, one of those early roles of yours, you’re so funny in that. And then I brought up the sitcom. It’s like, you know, for our listeners who don’t remember this two season show from ABC, you know, you played yourself on this sitcom in sort of an L.A. satire show. So, you know, like when did you first realize, I guess, that you had comic timing and that you were funny as a person?

 

Jennifer Gray I don’t know. I mean, I always thought I was funny. Not everyone thinks I’m funny, but I’ve always like I make myself laugh all the time. Like, I amuse myself a lot. And I and I am friends with really funny people. Like, I. I actually don’t think I’m friends with anyone who’s not funny. Like just it’s a way of looking at the world. And also, I come from a very I have my you know, my grandfather was a famous Jewish comedian. And I think that when Jews came here and they were so worried about, you know, how much they were hated, they would make themselves small or make themselves funny and like, I’m not a threat. But the self-deprecating humor is like, you know, showing your belly. And it’s also like the kind of gesture thing, like, I’ll make you laugh and I’ll bring you towards me. And I feel like when you’re dealing with trauma or devastation or tragedy, it I think it’s a great reliever, like how to manage it and how to bear it. And I feel like that was what Jesse so deftly has done in this movie because it’s essentially a human movie. About smart, funny people and the way Jesse deals with his the way he’s made up is through comedy. And so therefore, the movie gives you all of these moments of relief when it just got so heavy or so sad. So instead of playing into that or doing any of those cheap things that people can do to manipulate, he deflects or he gives us relief. And so I really think it’s important that people not be afraid to see the movie because it’s not a Holocaust movie. It’s it’s really a movie about connection and loneliness and separation and personal pain and emotional pain and people who are really struggling. Some people like we all have pain. It’s part of life. And I think there’s a lot of shame around pain. And I think we’re dealing with bourgeois high class problems of like, I shouldn’t have pain. I have everything I need, especially when it’s juxtaposed with going to a concentration camp and you go, Well, how can both things be true? They can we can have personal pain and be, you know, looking at what our ancestors went through to get to give us this beautiful life and and not and not be negating or like it’s it’s they’re all justified. They’re all real. And to just be like, owning it and like, this is okay.

 

Louis Virtel Now, I can’t reveal my sources here, but I heard that once upon a time you had a word document where you collected words and phrases that sounded Jewish but aren’t correct. Okay. This is one of the most amazing things I’ve ever heard. Words like spatula.

 

Jennifer Gray Well, it’s. It’s something I’m asked about a lot.

 

Louis Virtel Really? Because it’s an awesome I mean, the spatula. I mean, I’m laughing, but what spurred this idea?

 

Jennifer Gray Okay, so Mike Nichols is the first person who started this game with me. And I, in my file of facts, I used to have a list of them and I looked at my own file effects and I haven’t been able to find the list, which is really pains me, but I’ll give you a couple of ideas. The here’s the rules of the game. Okay. You can’t say it with a Yiddish or Jewish accent. You have to say it straight, like just as it’s said. And it should sound like Yiddish, right? So a word like velvet. Or dais ziplock for box kite or boyish appeal.

 

Louis Virtel Boyish appeal.

 

Jennifer Gray Or moisten. So there are a lot of them, but it’s a really fun game and people ask me all the time, What’s the list? What’s the list? I said, I don’t have the list. But I could I could remember some of them. But the idea, as you say, the word completely normally and it sounds like Yiddish.

 

Louis Virtel We need more word docs like that just in life. I don’t know. That really added something to my back. Okay.

 

Jennifer Gray It wasn’t a word, doc. It was before word doc. It was like it was the back of the file, A fax, piece of paper.

 

Louis Virtel Literally, like filing it away. Like in a card catalog.

 

Jennifer Gray No, no file A fax was. I.

 

Ira Madison III Don’t know if.

 

Louis Virtel I’m just 38. I can’t. How? I don’t know what that is.

 

Jennifer Gray Okay. Do you know what a file was? It was a it was an English leather day planner with it’s like an address book in the back and with your. With your.

 

Ira Madison III Printer.

 

Louis Virtel Got it. Got it. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, we had those.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, whatever. Maybe. Yeah, I don’t. Not. I don’t.

 

Jennifer Gray Think. Lance, did you ever have a week at a glance? No, no, no.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray Yeah. We used to write. We used to write like. Like animals with pens.

 

Louis Virtel Really?

 

Ira Madison III Crude. Yeah, well, you. I mean, you mentioned, you know, the family you come from. And of course, Lewis and I are big fans of your father, Joel Gray, and thinking about Wicked being out now, you know, I remember seeing him in it.

 

Jennifer Gray As the wizard. He was the first wizard. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III I’m wondering if you have any maybe memories from seeing your father on stage in the Wicked or any of his other shows really, that sort of, like, have stayed with you?

 

Jennifer Gray Well, just starting with Wicked. I remember when he was doing it, I remember him rehearsing it and I just had maybe I was pregnant and so I wasn’t in New York. I was here and maybe my baby was little. And we made our first trip to New York and it was in dress rehearsal. So I went to the dress rehearsal and I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing at dinner. And Kristen, their voices melding in those duets and and and just that. I mean, imagine there’s sometimes there’s music that you have to hear a bunch of times and then you fall in love with it. This score I’d never heard of note a word and I heard it and I was like, This is magic, This is so major. And I was like, This is going to be a huge. And because it gave you that feeling of especially when you don’t expect anything, right? It gave me that feeling of like, buoyancy, like, like flying yourself when you come out that thing of like, I just saw something really big. But my dad has been in so many unbelievable firsts. I was, you know, because you read my book when I was I mean, my entire life, my dad has been on stage. So I that’s the only job I knew anyone ever had. I knew people had jobs, you know, backstage, and there were dressers, but I didn’t really that’s all I know is I think he performed. And so I would always go and watch him. And when he was doing the stage production of Cabaret, I would sit I would go with him in matinees. I was six when he started it and he did it till I was eight. So I would go on matinees and I would sit in the wings and I’d watch him do the makeup. And I was always very captivated by the whole process of watching him go from daddy walking down the street, you know, 46 or whatever it was, to like sitting in there and watching him change and then the dresser and then the him going on stage as this other person. And I was raised with that incredible music of cabaret that that music is so incredible. The score is so extraordinary today, ever since. And then when I was ten, he went to Germany to do the movie. And so Bob Fosse, Liza minnelli, Michael York. I go there and it’s, you know, even more bizarre and real and much more gritty. But now I’m older, so I can kind of understand better about the Naziism and the violence of it, because the musical version was much softer, as you can imagine. And so all of a sudden you see a much more visceral, evil, scary, like terrifying, the beginning of Nazi Germany and the beginning of them taking over and the violence. And I had been raised, you know, you know, I read The Diary of Anne Frank as a girl. When I saw the stage play, I had to be explained, you know, what swastikas were and why was this happening? And I didn’t understand because I lived in New York. I thought everyone was Jewish. You know, it was very it was normal. I never considered why anyone wouldn’t love. I would hate. I didn’t understand. Like, I was just I grew up in a very diverse world. And New York City in the 60s was very mixed and it was good and we loved it that way, you know. And so there was just that. But having watched him do so many musicals and so much and what he did, The Normal Heart, he replaced, you know, Yes, he played the lead in The Normal Heart. And so there was just growing up around Aids, the Aids epidemic and that play and Larry Kramer and all of that. I mean, all of those things. He’s been involved in so many important moments in history and history and art representing history and important things, but done with so much artistic artistry and virtuosity. So I feel very, very lucky that that’s been what I’ve been raised on.

 

Louis Virtel It must be said. I’m speaking of your own artistry, though, in the canon of John Hughes characters, it’s so weird that he is often described as like he gave us characters that were relatable to teenagers everywhere, namely us, like, you know, cloistered suburbanites. I think the most relatable character in the John Hughes canon is Genie and Ferris Bueller. There is something about her. I feel like, unlike all of his other characters, something about her was like she was already an adult and she already had this earned cynicism about her. And all the world kept doing was confirming the cynicism to her.

 

Jennifer Gray And what you identified, you write quite. That’s me. You weren’t Genie.

 

Louis Virtel I was a genie.

 

Ira Madison III Dang.

 

Jennifer Gray Yes. Right. That was. That was the archetype for you? Yes.

 

Louis Virtel But I don’t feel like I hear that often. Do you feel like it’s a character that people relate to?

 

Jennifer Gray I think the feeling of. Life is unfair to me and it’s easier for everybody else. It’s a very universal feeling because you don’t actually know the shit everyone else is dealing with. It’s just you’re comparing your insides to their outsides, right? And so the idea of like, why is always everything? Why does he always. And the idea of being a jealous sibling is also, I think, very relatable to people because there is the baby. I don’t know. I don’t know. I didn’t have this in my family. Actually, I did. My brother was so beautiful and I was the interesting looking one. And I was like, my God. Like, okay, so he’s beautiful, but I’m beautiful in my way. Like, I think there’s always that kind of family dynamic of comparisons or favorites. And I think that when you go from your personal experience to what you perceive someone else’s experiences, it’s easy to have it be skewed through your brain, which is, nobody knows the trouble I’ve seen, you know, I mean.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. And if anything, she would have gotten along probably better with Cameron if they had, you know, been able to be friends. That’s who I related to the most in the movie, to be honest. Right.

 

Louis Virtel We should really build this podcast that way.

 

Jennifer Gray Wait, tell me about you and Cameron.

 

Ira Madison III You know, I feel like Cameron is sort of obviously everyone wants to be that troublemaker. Dennis the Menace kind of Ferris Bueller character. But I don’t know. There’s something about that person in school who sort of looks up to their friends a bit more because maybe they have more freedom in their life, like sort of that other perceived thing of like, their life is better than mine. And then, you know, with the things that Cameron has going on at home with his father, it’s very relatable to me. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, Ferris is a good fantasy world for him to jump into until the end when he’s sort of like, I don’t want to be in the fantasy world anymore.

 

Jennifer Gray Interesting. I mean, isn’t it funny? Like, I think every every good piece of art or movie, I think I mean, I’m calling it art and meant to be pretentious, but I mean, these are pretty Smithsonian worthy. I mean, I mean, the truth is, is that if it’s done well, everybody sees it through their own lens, Right? And everyone gets to tell the story that their story through that, you know, it’s what they see. And I’m just curious, do you relate to do you relate more to Benji or to David?

 

Louis Virtel I am. I am a David. Yes. As in, like, I want that person with the crazy personality to bring it down to a low murmur. Yes. If you will. I’m People Bueller in the movie. A real pain.

 

Ira Madison III Yes.

 

Jennifer Gray Okay. What about you?

 

Ira Madison III I can relate to parts of David where you’re sort of always worried about what other people are thinking, too. And I thought, but the Benji outbursts a bit can sometimes be me, you know?

 

Jennifer Gray Like, do you do feel that’s. Do you feel that’s like when you like like when you’re really like at attentive like. Like you lose it but then you can hold it together.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I mean, I could definitely relate, you know, to the dinner scene where he’s talking about, you know, just how he’s perceived by his family. And then, I mean, there’s, you know, I want to spoil things for people, but there’s the real gut punch moment where.

 

Jennifer Gray Just don’t don’t.

 

Ira Madison III Mention something, you know? So I think it’s a it’s a beautiful sort of portrayal of two cousins and it’s relatable to anybody. Both characters.

 

Jennifer Gray Yeah. And I feel like there there could be parts of the same person. You know what I mean? Like, you could have an inner benji and be in it, and. And like, I think I. I really feel like I have both within me. Like, I can hold it together and look like I have this stick or two together and and be kind of controlled and nervous and managing everything and just assuming everything’s going to go badly at all, you know? And then I have the kind of part of me that when I’m kind of more in flow, is more like carrot, which is just like, fuck it.

 

Ira Madison III And it’s like.

 

Jennifer Gray You can go fuck yourself. I don’t care, you know?

 

Louis Virtel Now, to bring it back to Alan Ruck for a minute, I feel like you are not asked enough about the movie Bloodhounds of Broadway, which is.

 

Jennifer Gray This.

 

Ira Madison III You know.

 

Louis Virtel Amazing reaction to that tidbit, which where you have a duet with Madonna where you sing this old jazz standard called I Surrender Dear, which is my favorite part of the movie. And as you discussed.

 

Jennifer Gray Now, you’re just really flirting.

 

Ira Madison III All right. Here’s a number one. Madonna.

 

Louis Virtel I do have to say, you stumbled that you have a gay dad. This isn’t news to you. Okay, moving on.

 

Jennifer Gray That’s what I love it all.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, good. But that duet is so pleasant. And as you discussed on Seth Meyers, you also inspired the song Express Yourself. Alleged.

 

Jennifer Gray Well, that’s what she told me. I don’t know. You know, I don’t know if she’d corroborate that now, but at the time, she most certainly said it to me and said, Get in my car, listen to this song. It’s about you.

 

Ira Madison III You know, she’s a Leo. So she meant it. She But you don’t just dole out info like that to people. Yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray And the truth is, is that, you know, we were both going through breakups when we became friends. She was breaking up with Shawn. I was breaking up with Matthew. And there was. That was how we bonded was through that girl thing that girls do, which is, you know, you kind of, you know, what’s it called, but you kind of pull each other up and talk like you’re a hype girl, you know? They didn’t call it that then, but that’s what, you know, we were just basically like, You deserve better. You can do it, you know, that kind of thing. And so we were you know, I played each other up and getting each other through the rough patches.

 

Louis Virtel Do you ever actually listen to that song and are like, extra empowered because it’s about you and it’s an empowering song?

 

Jennifer Gray You know what? I’m going to start putting that in my playlists. You should just go like, Yeah, that’s right.

 

Louis Virtel I’m just saying, like in L.A., there’s this girls around who inspired the song My Sharona. I enjoy the song, my Sharona. But Express Yourself is like a pop song for the ages during the wait.

 

Jennifer Gray What makes. You think of my Sharona.

 

Louis Virtel Just because she, like it was inspired by somebody real. You know what I mean? But if I inspired a song that I considered her name.

 

Jennifer Gray Sharona?

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Yes.

 

Jennifer Gray Have you met Sharona?

 

Louis Virtel She’s around. I’ve been told she went to high school. My friends. Yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel But just. Anyway, if something that amazing were named for me, I don’t think I would ever get over it.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray I don’t know. I just. I’m so. I’m so cynical and so, like, I’m always like. Okay, well, she did say it for sure because I would never I’m not someone who would ever make that up. That would be I would be so ashamed. It’s just not my thing. So I know it happened. I didn’t dream it, but I don’t know. Yeah, I sometimes think she did happen. It seems so wild, but.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Well, let me say, you know, she definitely meant it. Like I said, she’s a Leo. And knowing that. Are you a lawyer? Please. When are they going to attack? Yes. And knowing Madonna with as many times as you’ve mentioned, like you inspired express yourself, if she did not mean that, she would have corrected you.

 

Jennifer Gray Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray It’s true. I got to say, Alan Ruck, who’s also in succession, as you know. Yes. Is one of one of the greatest people. I’ve actually did a play with him also. So he’s just a he’s just like seven degrees of Alan, right, for me. Like, I’m just. There he is again. There he is again. He’s one of the greatest guys in the world.

 

Louis Virtel His wife is also an A-plus actress. Maura. You know.

 

Jennifer Gray A-plus. Yeah. And yeah, and it was. He’s just incredible. Thanks for having me, guys, and thanks for doing so much homework.

 

Louis Virtel Please. It’s our hope. We have a disease where we can’t stop doing the homework. All I want to do is watch the show.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray Well, it’s. It’s. It’s very, very, very impressive.

 

Louis Virtel Thanks.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. No, it was a joy to rewatch all the episodes of It’s like, you know, which are only on YouTube, by the way.

 

Jennifer Gray So this is. Is that how you do everything?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. It’s not streaming, but so if you if you want to go and watch episodes, just look up. It’s like, you know, on YouTube and the whole season is there.

 

Jennifer Gray I should make my daughter watch it. It’s like you watch friends 700 times, watch one, see that one episode? And it’s like, you know, But you.

 

Louis Virtel Also I think you’re the only season of Dancing with the Stars that was like, soulfully edifying, like I had to watch every week. You were so good. Yeah.

 

Jennifer Gray You guess would. It was a really big deal. It was a weirdly amazing moment. It was really like. Like when I was told it would change my life, I was like, that’s the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. But it was it was a big deal and it made it. It was like I remember looking at those videos on YouTube and going like, I that that’s me. How did I do that? There’s no way that I ever imagined I could have. So that was pretty much yeah, I.

 

Louis Virtel Picked up the phone to vote for you, which is like I did not think that would be my life. Like voting on Dancing with the Stars.

 

Jennifer Gray If you start stalking, flirting now, I’m a little worried. Okay?

 

Louis Virtel I’m reciting fake Jewish words outside your window right now.

 

Jennifer Gray Thanks, guys.

 

Louis Virtel So thank you, Jennifer. Thank you.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you. The box office has been flush with Oscar contenders the past couple of weeks from a real pain to Amelia Perez to conclave. Between these movies of the three of us, we’ve got a lot of opinions to sit through. So why don’t we start with Amelia Perez or as I call it, the Mob Wives of Waverly Place?

 

Sam Sanders Or is that or as I call it, why are these hoes singing at me?

 

Louis Virtel No, I’m sorry. I can’t do that criticism. You accept that it’s a musical or you don’t?

 

Ira Madison III I Yeah, yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Here’s why I ask this question about why are they singing? Because for one, I found none of the songs grippy enough or compelling enough to be there. They weren’t great songs. And two, if you took out all of those songs, the plot of the film itself was enough to keep your attention. It just felt like the songs got in the way. They weren’t necessary and they weren’t good songs. I like this movie. I love it even more with no music.

 

Louis Virtel I feel like the songs, though, are just there to deliver a narrative and we should get into what this narrative is. Because one thing is for sure, when you go and see Amelia Perez, you have not seen a movie like it. Maybe you maybe will recall some Pedro Almodovar twists and turns and zaniness and colorful visuals, but otherwise. Okay, we’ll get into it. But it’s it’s this movie about Zoe Saldana, who is a lawyer who is randomly kidnaped and recruited to help this cartel leader transition and leave no trace of their life behind. So she has to move this person’s family into secrecy. And this person’s wife is played by Selena Gomez. And it’s this it’s a musical. It is very taut, very violent. It’s very emotive hour with guns, kind of. But otherwise, let’s just start with the performances. Zoe Saldana, who is getting a lot of buzz for being a best supporting actress nominee. She is amazing. Not a thing about that performance as supporting. She is the lead of this. She is the lead. So if she ends up in supporting at the Oscars, that is category fraud like nothing we’ve seen since like Timothy Hutton and Ordinary people, which is a phrase that comes out of my mouth once an episode. But I thought Zoe Saldana and this movie was amazing. I thought every single time she was on screen, she was captivating. Knew the tone of the movie before we did. I was adjusting to her. I didn’t feel like she was ever doing anything. That the movie is giving is so filled with sensations and noise and music, and I felt like she had this tempered attitude towards it all and just a cool look that really served the movie really well.

 

Sam Sanders I thought she was great. Good.

 

Ira Madison III I. I did not like this movie one bit. I found, I thought a lot of the movie nasty, to be honest, and sort of cruel and little a little bit cruel just in its depiction of Amelia Perez, a trans woman in its depiction of Mexico. The director, Jacques Audiard, also directed a prophet. He’s French, you know, And there’s no reason you can’t play in someone else’s cultural sandbox. But the Almodovar comparisons are obviously coming up because it is, you know, a melodrama. It’s telenovela, it’s soapy, it’s pulpy. All women characters, all women characters, all women characters and the transition, the problematic ness of it. Given some of the reviews, like people should read Heron Walker’s review in Vulture specifically, but it recalls the skin I live in another a messy Almodovar film starring Antonio Banderas, which has sort of a similar transgender plotline in it. Anyway, I just feel like his stories in the small towns that he focuses on, you know, in Spain, his home country, sort of elevate these characters and elevate the place that they’re living in and sort of makes you feel just sort of sympathy towards them, makes you feel like it’s sort of a love letter to those places. And I don’t know, you’re supposed to feel maybe some sympathy for Amelia Perez, but I kind of like, don’t I feel like she’s a despicable character and I feel like there’s just no empathy in this movie. And I feel like there’s no empathy towards Mexico in the movie. I love Zoe Saldana’s character, but even the moment where, you know, she starts out the movie very like dark skinned, poor Mexican woman who’s working for this high powered lawyer. And then later when you see her, when she has some money, you know, she’s got the bus down, the skin is lighter, she’s being lit better. It’s just very like, okay, like, you know, step into your whiteness. And she’s like, I don’t miss Mexico. You know, I think it’s just the film was very nasty to me. I didn’t get that at all. Like.

 

Sam Sanders I was really perplexed in the ways the character who needed the most development got the least development. I’m talking about the trans drug lord kingpin. I want more of that backstory. I want to more of that backstory and the motivations of that person and what happened to them before or after and next. And I didn’t get that. So much of the energy of this film felt misdirected. As much as I love Zoe Saldana, they spent so much time on her character and not enough on the trans kingpin. They spend an unnecessary amount of time making me look at Selena Gomez’s bad day job and watch her sing. And I’m just it’s felt like it was like overkill when what I really wanted was a character development of the central character, which we never got. But instead I just get like more songs that weren’t great, in my opinion.

 

Louis Virtel Again, I think the songs are there to deliver a narrative. It’s not really like a pop musical. If you’re looking for Mamma mia, do not go to this musical. But I think I feel like I concur on the front that this character who was introduced to us just as somebody who kidnaps Zoe Saldana and seems like a familiar thug in a movie, turns out to be this trans woman who then becomes friends with Zoe Saldana. And as the movie progresses, she wants to be reunited with her family, and she gets Zoe to tell them that a distant relative of their father will be taking care of them. And so they’re shipped off to her and they’re unaware that this is their post-transition father. So there’s like a lot of mistaken identity, you know, sort of a 12th night ness to this, if you will, like not recognizing people. Some might say Mrs. Doubtfire, you know, it’s a trope throughout American history. But it is interesting that immediately we’re just this person who once kidnaped Zoe Saldana is now somebody we’re supposed to be sympathetic to and is in fact so in love with their family. But like, I think that’s part of the whiz bang of this movie. Just okay, you’re trucking along like you hit these crazy bumps. It’s meant to be uncomfortable and strange and, like, kind of goofy. I have never lived in Mexico. I’m not going to jump in on any criticisms that say this is portraying Mexico one way or another or disgustingly or whatever. Maybe that’s the case for some people. I really treated this like a caper that turned out everything from every character. Like, I did not expect much from Selena Gomez, and by the end of this movie, I thought she did give an impressive performance. I wouldn’t say it was Oscar caliber, but again, we’re like this year and it wouldn’t surprise me.

 

Ira Madison III I love Selena Gomez, as we said, as I said on the show before. I prefer her acting, to be honest. I think she’s a very funny, sort of gifted actress. I thought this was one of her best performances, to be honest. But I feel like we saw her just really did not do her character any service. The first one where she’s singing in. When she’s sort of like waking up in bed and she’s in this new world. I just feel like the songs weren’t illuminating. If you want to talk about motivation and melodrama, those characters, characters and melodrama love a monologue and back story. Like you said, we learned not much about Amelia Perez. Yeah. Why? She wanted to transition. Other than a very dopey conversation, you know, with Zoe Saldana and a doctor about how, you know, like, she could become her true self, you know, it felt very platitudes about transitions from people who just have an experience life as a trans person, let alone a queer person. Zoe Saldana is the lead, ostensibly, but you also don’t learn a single thing about her. Really, why she makes the choices she does in the film? Yeah. I just. I really thought that I appreciated the boldness of the film. Very bottoms of, you know, the numbers themselves are a lot of them are beautifully done. And I think it’s a very dynamic way to present a musical onscreen. But ultimately, the music wasn’t good for me. The story wasn’t good, and I felt no empathy for anybody in this film.

 

Sam Sanders My bar for a good musical is that I should leave the movie theater with at least one melody or song stuck in my head. And if that doesn’t happen, the songs weren’t hidden, and they should have been better songs. None of these songs were sticky enough to merit being such a big part of the film.

 

Ira Madison III In my opinion. The sex surgery song definitely Stuck in my Head, which is a wild, potentially Razzie nominated scene. That scene was always how Donna is introduced is going around looking at, you know, different people who could do the transition surgery for Amelia Perez, you know, people singing about fetuses and vaginas and things. I was like, I’m watching Rocky Horror.

 

Louis Virtel But yeah, but I think also it’s like I feel like you’re pigeonholing this movie as a musical when it is basically a musical. Secondarily. Like, I’m not I’m not saying there aren’t.

 

Sam Sanders Don’t sell it to me first as a musical. They’re like, It’s a musical.

 

Louis Virtel No, it’s. No, they aren’t. Who cares what you heard that? I’m just saying. There’s a lot there’s a lot else going on in this movie that you have to ignore in order to say, this is just a musical with bad songs. I think there’s a lot more going on in this movie.

 

Ira Madison III I know.

 

Sam Sanders And I like when the other things are going on. I just felt like I was like on a ride and then I would get distracted by a mediocre song.

 

Ira Madison III And that was. I just I just don’t think that whether or not it’s being billed as a musical should detract away from the fact that the music is bad. Like, I just don’t think it’s good music. To be honest, I thought, That’s great.

 

Louis Virtel I agree. I agree. I think they were. The music was basically versions of monologues for the characters that do a lot of the backstory Explaining you’re saying didn’t happen.

 

Ira Madison III Okay. Okay. I’m going to go watch it again.

 

Louis Virtel Meanwhile, we should get it to conclave while we have time. Conclave has 60 popes. Yes. Yes, baby. By the way, I can’t imagine not going into this movie and not having, like one of your favorite actors in it. There are so many people in this movie who are fantastic on RTÉ finds as the main cardinal. It’s about a pope has died and now the Cardinals are getting together to figure out who’s going to be the next pope. And it’s basically a gossipy lots of whispers and corridors and like, who is is this is this cardinal secretly disqualified and should this person be it? And it’s basically a lot of scuttlebutt and eventually they select a pope. But it’s a very swift movie, actually, for an Oscar drama, which I guess I would call it like kind of like a veep episode or something in terms of the comedy like it. So it’s like it’s these are people in official positions, but there’s a gasping this about them that is very endearing. What did you guys think of conclave?

 

Sam Sanders I thought it was. Yeah, same. I thought it was great. I thought it was beautiful to watch the way they shot this film. The color, all the red is, like, beautiful. I thought that the dialog was sharp and they were giving you plot in rapid succession. I want everyone was like, this is an Oscar worthy movie. I was just like a light year. I’m like in the strike. Like we’re in a dearth and a deficit because in a normal year, this would just be a movie that we all like. I was really surprised when I went to go see it. At how older the audience was. This movie, more than others, has been bringing in people over 50, which is good, and it’s a sign that, like, people still want movies for grown folks, you know what I’m saying? So I like it. I don’t see Oscar written all over it, but what do I know? And it’s a slow year, but I loved it.

 

Louis Virtel I think that I felt like it was a pleasant enough movie that was entertaining enough and pretty unpretentious. Like it’s not laden with heavy themes, but it does feel like a movie that’s released midyear and doesn’t feel like an Oscars contender in terms of like the gravitas of what’s happening in the picture. Because to be honest, I don’t think this is a movie really about anything. It’s just we have to select this pope. And that person is sort of a shady character. This person is sort of a shady character. What is it? What’s going on in his past? And we unpack those things and then we get to a pope. So I was sort of waiting for more there to be there. And now I’m also hearing, speaking of the best supporting actress category, that Isabella Rossellini may be a contender for her role in this girl. She has two lines. She has lines in the film.

 

Sam Sanders She has two lines. I felt like, you know, okay, like, you know how it’ll read a really great New Yorker profile of, like, truffle pigs all the time? You’re like, This is such beautiful writing. It’s incredible. But then you finish it and you never think of it again. And it changes your world in no way. And it signifies nothing. That was conquest.

 

Louis Virtel I think you are exactly right. That is exactly how I feel about this movie. Yes.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. All right. Well, I like this movie quite a bit more. I mean, I like it. I think Isabella Rossellini, I would love if she got a supporting actress nomination. She could go toe to toe with Beatrice straight. Okay. Okay. She won for her five minutes on screen.

 

Louis Virtel Excuse me. Those are five full minutes.

 

Ira Madison III Isabella Rossellini.

 

Louis Virtel We are not going to bring in Beatrice to this, not Mrs. Pulitzer.

 

Sam Sanders Geist People also forget Viola Davis in doubt. That was a very, very short role.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, it could have. She does more than both of those women, to be honest. But Isabella Rossellini, you are a copy machine. Come on. That scene was awesome. It was great. I mean, to operate it.

 

Louis Virtel Come on. Yeah. That’s not one of the five best supporting actress of the year.

 

Ira Madison III I really enjoyed this film, obviously. There’s been an older audience in the film, but there’s also been a younger audience just But, you know, it’s. It’s one of those films that is sort of a film for older people, like a serious grown folks film that also manages to catch the zeitgeist, I think because of, you know, the election and also, you know, just with the gossipy ness of it and being actors that, you know, like film people love, you know, revise Isabella Rossellini, John Lithgow, Stanley Tucci. There is just so much fun in it. You know, people are making Gossip Girl mean girls me about the film. And I think that my audience was older people and also like younger people watching it too, and everyone’s having a great time laughing at it. I personally felt like the film is a lot about convictions and faith and having, you know, like gone to a Jesuit high school and college. I was relating to a lot of it. But unfortunately I don’t want to ruin the film for people, but I feel like the ending of the movie and like this actually came out of nowhere for me, falls flat. It comes out of nowhere. Maybe it works better in the book that it’s based on, but I don’t know for such a film that’s talking about the murkiness of doubt and, you know, like, you know, not needing to be sure of anything, you know, you need. Doubt to really have faith, to have such a definitive ending. I guess thought very pat for what else we’d watched before.

 

Sam Sanders I agree. It came out of nowhere. And it’s like if you wanted to make a point with this, you needed to spend more time on it. You just showed this to me and then it was over. I didn’t get it. It didn’t make me feel bad about the rest of the film. But it was a head scratcher as it closed.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Yeah, I just want to say about that. So the person who is revealed to be the pope and a pretty good performance, by the way, by. Yeah, yeah. But my question and this is a spoiler, so go pass this if you’re listening and want to watch conclave spoiler free, why is this person the pope, why did they get any traction?

 

Sam Sanders Well, because clearly the old pope who was dying wanted this person to get it. But they never tell us why. It’s never been filled. We don’t get enough of the dying pope’s motivations to make it make sense.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. No, it’s just like, okay, like you. Through the several rounds of voting, somehow you gain traction. It was super weird. I don’t.

 

Sam Sanders Know. But it was all the old Pope’s design and it was just like, Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III I didn’t get it’s about war and Afghanistan and, you know, whatever there was, you know, there was a lot more that could have been mined. Like I particularly love the Italian pope who has so much for tradition, but he’s also laid bare the contradictions of him being like, we haven’t had a Italian pope in 40 years. And it’s like, well, obviously that’s like the lifespan of a single pope, you know? So yeah, yeah, it’s a very funny character. But I don’t know, just watch it for like the secrecy and the fun of it, you know, when people are pulling out secret letters that have been hidden behind bed stands like you’re in it. Yeah. Nancy Drew It’s yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. It’s fun because it’s so linear. It’s like this side. That side, that side. Who’s going to win?

 

Ira Madison III Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Like, it’s. It makes sense. I like that about it. And it was great gowns, beautiful gowns, literal great gowns. Quiet out.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, you know, those are two films that people are really chatting about this week. I loved Conclave a lot more than Amelia Peres, but Louis enjoyed it. So if you want to be on Louis Tsai, text 5551.

 

Louis Virtel 800 Idol go idols three.

 

Ira Madison III Or whatever. The only times you’ve really needed to vote, you know for Jennifer Gray and Dancing with the Stars and American Idol thing. There you go. Yeah. All right. When we are back, keep it there. And we are back for our favorite segment of the episode. It is. Keep it. Louis, what’s on your mind?

 

Louis Virtel This is the most exhausting key bit of the past six months, and I’m going to try to keep it abridged, but keep it to this entire Nicole Scherzinger saga. One, because of the twists and turns, it keeps turning up. But then secondly, because of what it has done to me, why am I wrapped up in this woman who I have enjoyed in a not careful way over the past one years? I’ve enjoyed the initial domination and whatever, and now it is on my mind. Nicole Scherzinger, who is enjoying, as we have discussed on Key but a phenomenal return course no Norma Desmond to call with us thanks to Sunset Boulevard on Broadway, where she gives an amazing performance. Unfortunately, some social media posts have turned up in recent days, going into a week that are dubious as hell. One of them is her responding to a picture of Russell Brand waving a hat in the air that says Make Jesus first again, I believe is the wording. And she says, Where can I get one of those? Now, let me just say this before people immediately connected this to, she must be a Trump voter since it looks like a red Trump hat. The fact that she was caring about Russell Brand is already Defcon one because this is one of the scariest celebrities we have.

 

Ira Madison III First of all, if you follow him, wow.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Everything he does, I have to be right there. This is a man who is extremely smart and is also extremely manipulative, like literally a huckster. Now, for conspiracy theories on the right. I don’t know what happened, what broke in the brain, but it is not normal. He is not okay. There are, of course, also credible accusations of rape and assault against this man. So the fact that she’s loving Jesus in his presence means either she is clearly not aware of what is going on with Russell Brand. Are there some magical thinking going on, period? But that is not the last social media post going on with Nicole Scherzinger. She liked a post from RFK Jr that was, I believe, for Trump, which indicates to me she must be anti-vax or something. I don’t know why she’s clued into the RFK thing, but anyway, everybody online saw this, figured this out, thought Nicole Scherzinger, who has long time been pro-life. So that sort of seemed to shape this argument. She must be a pro-Trump person, even though she was an Obama person in 2008. Eventually she released a statement saying, I understand why you guys all thought this. That’s not the case. This has nothing to do with how I voted, even though she didn’t say how she voted, which would have ended this whole thing if she had voted for Kamala Harris. A couple of days later, something came up that indicated she wore a Kamala shirt sometime before the election. What is up with that picture? It does not look like Nicole Scherzinger to me. I am so sorry to be a conspiracy theorist on my own.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I have so many ways about this because one, obviously the Russell brand of it all and also reminding yourself that en masse singer, you know, she’s friends with Jenny McCarthy and Robin Thicke. And you know so it’s very. This is just a merry band, you know, as it were. Very band of thieves and anti-vaxxers. And I can understand the Russell thing only in the sense that, like, she is very Jesus. And, you know, they do support people who like Russell Brand. We know he’s a huckster, but he’s done a very public shift to I’m religious now.

 

Sam Sanders I also also just passed from Pussycat Doll to very Jesus to go off Nicole. I like that whole journey, period. I love.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, Eden’s crush, Garden of Eden’s Crush or some.

 

Louis Virtel Biblical scholar.

 

Ira Madison III She was. She was letting us know from the beginning. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, It’s just it’s very weird because I also have friends who know Nicole Scherzinger and are like, you know, she is not a Trump supporter. Yeah, they say and, you know, I’ve been around her before, just like she is very hard in her convictions about Jesus. Yes. But does not seem like a Trump supporter at all. Has never really given that indication. So I want to at least maybe give her the benefit of the doubt in that. But the other thing I want to say about this is that there have been reports now from people like this resistance shirt popping up because there have been people now like claiming she’s being booed on stage at Sunset Boulevard. No, the.

 

Sam Sanders Fuck she is, that’ll fix it. But also that’ll fix our politics, right? Just stay, okay?

 

Ira Madison III She’s not being booed. If she was booed one, there would be actual reports of it. And like page six, it wouldn’t just be like a couple people saying it online. You wouldn’t hear it from a friend that it happened to. Those tickets are expensive as hell. Okay. Nobody is paying 200 plus dollars. I saw it last week. Nobody’s paying $200 to then go and like, boo this woman and then possibly be kicked out. Three Broadway is kept alive by tourists. Okay. Do you think the people in the Midwest, we saw the election results. We saw what the results were even in New York. You know, so like, I don’t think there are that many, you know, enemies going to see her. You know, they’re not going to believe her because she maybe voted for Trump.

 

Louis Virtel Do you think it was maybe one of the people booing was like karma from Pussycat Dolls? Just like snuck.

 

Ira Madison III In. So she’s a little chatty from outside? Yeah. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders My thing with the whole Nicole drama is that it speaks to a larger phenomenon that I think celebrities came out of pandemic lockdown with. All of them thought it was a great idea to begin to run their own social media. This is the root of all evil. They’ve got to stop. Why? Why are you in there commenting? Why are you in there? Like, let someone else do all of that for you. You’re not supposed to do it. The other week, Sarah Paulson was posting something on Instagram where she was like by posting this statement, I say that I do not give Metta permission to use my likeness for air. And it’s like, girl, that shit my auntie would post. Why are you why are you doing this? Celebrities should not run their socials. This is the problem. This is the root of all evil.

 

Ira Madison III Because also writing. Where can I get this hat? What does that get you? Right. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Rescue team to get you the hats. You have people who work for you. You can make. I just don’t get it. And like, the only the only celebrity who does a good job of being online perpetually is scissor. Scissor creeps in comments in the funniest way. And she’s just like a fan like the rest of us. I like her doing it. Everyone else stop.

 

Ira Madison III And a big fan of Clara’s album, Charm. Shout out to that. Yeah. So, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Nicole, could the hat have been any color but red? Like, it’s just like the thinking on this. It’s just like, ridiculous.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. I will say, though, as a woman with many gay friends, though, gays also have to admit a little bit of responsibility for this because how many gays run around with their own like versions of your house and say like, Make America Great Again and do shit like that? You know, like, I think we’ve just led people to believe that parodies of the hat are fine.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. And it’s like, No, don’t do that style.

 

Louis Virtel Anyway, I just want to say that I finally listen to the Sunset Boulevard soundtrack again after this song. It is so good, except the magic was dimmed for me for the first time because of this whole thing. So I I’m still rooting for her for this, Tony, because it was such a one of a kind, theatrical experience. And I love what she did with the character. But anyway, we have to move on to our next Keep it. Sam, what is your Keep it.

 

Sam Sanders My keep it. Is all of these very, very angry liberals on the Internet. Policing celebrities follows in the aftermath of the election. I’ve seen this happen a few times. A celebrity I follow or know will have to post to their stories and be like, Stop coming after me because I follow the GOP on Instagram. Like I follow it to be informed of what they’re doing. Like not because I support them. And I’ve had people creep into the comment sections of videos that I’m in to trash folks I’ve been interviewing because they’re like, I see you follow this person. It is so wild to me that anyone on the left thinks that that is a productive form of activism. So like this concern, trolling and policing of strangers, Internet followers. It’s like that’s the lesson we took from Kamala losing. I don’t get it. I hate it. Keep it. It’s pointless. It’s dumb. Like, why? It is the weirdest thing to me. I never. I’ve never even thought to go look at some other random strangers. Follows online. I don’t want to know. I don’t care. And now it’s a thing that people obsess over. It drives me crazy. I think it’s so dumb.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I just want to say that I follow ice from the original American Gladiators because she was my favorite American gladiator. And I did not want to look at two of her followers one time. And I believe Breitbart was in there and maybe Megyn Kelly. So just to know, it’s not that I support what she does politically, but I love what she does on the rings and on the wall and during the eliminator. Thank you.

 

Sam Sanders Yes. Yes. And it’s like I don’t know what happened. What worm got into people’s brains that makes them think that this does anything productive? It does nothing productive.

 

Ira Madison III I don’t know. Just ask her.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. And it’s like we’re just in this moment where I can see the anger of the left manifesting in just, like, unproductive ways. I’m also tired of, like, all the liberals saying, well, I’m. I’m not talking to any of them anymore. I’m unfollowing everybody. Everybody, Leave me alone. And it’s like, you can do that. But if you ever want to build a winning coalition again, you’re going to have to find a way to communicate and build organizing power with people that you don’t like. It feels like everyone has lost the purpose of politics in this moment. The purpose of politics is to win. It is not to just be right.

 

Ira Madison III And so I hate that.

 

Sam Sanders Go ahead.

 

Ira Madison III And no, it’s it’s not about teams, you know, to and about, you know, like this. I mean, there’s been a lot of talk, you know, about like young men and who they’re listening to and who they’re voting for. And it’s just the idea of like throwing away an entire voter base just because you’re angry at them seems very shortsighted. You can. But politicians should not. And we really do need to talk about winning elections and amassing power. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders It’s like I was talking to a friend and they’re like, well, I know 73 million people who voted for Trump and support Trump. They’re all racist. And I said to them, I know black men in my family who support Trump and I would not use the word racist against them. And I would not even think or believe that they actually love everything that man does. It’s more complicated and nuanced than that. And saying that right now on the left is like a crime. But it’s the truth. It’s the truth. And like there’s just this this absolute lack of entertaining. Any idea of nuance around the folks who didn’t vote for the person who wanted to vote for. I’m tired of it. It goes on my nerves. They can keep that.

 

Ira Madison III You know, not to boil things down to a base thing, but you have to look at how things are aspirational to people. A lot of people listen to Joe Rogan’s or Logan Pauls and you know, like Dan Hassan Bikers, you know, and Party of America, you know, because they are aspirational. People are wanting to be them. Trump is an aspiration to a lot of men in this country, unfortunately, and people because he gets to behave with impunity, you know, like he’s not nothing bad happens to him for his bad behavior. And I think, you know, we have to look towards aspirational politics and movements instead of, you know, criticizing. And that’s all a stand.

 

Sam Sanders Up and understanding that, like, not everybody who supports who supported Trump did it because they liked how racist he was. A lot of folks liked that. His anger seemed to match their own anger. It was an emotional response. And you’re saying to yourself, which candidate most gets to where I’m at emotionally? And for whatever reason, they felt more of that with Trump that were Kamala and like that is a that for them was valid enough. And I don’t know people got to understand that you got to understand.

 

Ira Madison III That a nation of Howard Beales.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. My gosh. But back to network. My God. How could we be felled by vibes? I thought that’s the thing we had. Apparently. That’s the one thing we don’t have. I wrote What is your keep it.

 

Ira Madison III You’re working on the vibe checks. So. That’s true. Yeah, I’m trying to focus on that triangle. Right. Okay. My keep it this week goes to the conundrum that is stressing me out in this post X world. We’re leaving Elon Musk’s plaything. Yeah, really leave it. It’s like it’s an echo chamber. There’s nothing but Nazis on there and ads for like conservative podcasts and things. And you know, it’s just like the small amount of people that you follow is not representative of anything that’s actually going on in that sphere. And especially if you’re a journalist or like some other like artists are also like trying to get your shit out there. You need to be on a different platform that’s not suppressing that shit in the first place because a lot of outside links are suppressed by Elon Musk. My keep it though, goes to this current conundrum now of threads versus blue sky. Too much. Which 1 a.m. I doing? Which one?

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. And then they don’t even tell you when you post to Instagram. It’s going to threads. I didn’t know this is on a posting. It’s weird. I’m confused.

 

Louis Virtel It does feel like Instagram is like, the logical choice because so much of us are connected to Instagram anyway. And like, I think the layout is like, fine. But also I just went so cold on that when it came out that I haven’t even entertained that since.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, but Mark Zuckerberg, you know, is also in control and you want to support another billionaire. Come on. But, you know, we you know, we support a lot of billionaires. Some of us work with them. And so I think that that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But I will also say that. Blue sky is very. Nebulous. I don’t know. It’s. It feels like blue sky. I was getting away from Twitter in the first place because I was just tired of like, the anger and stuff. Right. And it seems like everyone has taken their election frustrations to blue Sky right now. And so I’m wanting to join it. But it’s a lot of people making long posts about how they’re angry right now. And it’s like I just I don’t want to read that right.

 

Louis Virtel It’s almost like social media is just the mistake in general. Maybe that’s what.

 

Sam Sanders You know, I was I was talking with Taylor Ruins last week and I asked her, have we just left the social media Garden of Eden? And is the reality that every social media platform that we’re on from now on will just be less fun than early insta and early Facebook? It’s just not going to be fun. Again, we’ve like matured past that moment in our social media lifespan.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I mean, I’m going to stick to just firebombing the comments of people who underestimate Christine McVie on Fleetwood Mac videos. That’s why I’m gonna do most of the majority of my post.

 

Sam Sanders And I will say the only portion of the Internet social media that brings me joy are the reaction comments to the horrible food Tiktoks. Like when some Midwestern lady makes the worst casserole known to man and there’s a reaction video next to it of some black person being like, no, you didn’t. The best part of the comments under that video. That’s all I want now. But everything else. No.

 

Ira Madison III I do want to say, though, that your needs people need to leave me alone. That white girl who’s cooking the mac and cheese because first of all, she has hurt nobody. The food looks good. And I think black people need to hear because why are you mad that this white woman is cooking mac and cheese? A thing that it’s not even like black culture that she’s stealing? It’s fucking food. It’s cheese. Yes. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Also also caring what these white ladies are cooking is letting them win. They’ll cook your own shit. Yeah. Why are you worried about them? It’s wild to me. Like the racial politics of food. Tick tock is kind of hilarious and wild. I don’t get it, but the comments are fun. The comments are very fun.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Anyway, anyway. Read some books, listen to some podcasts. Don’t be online. I don’t know.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I’m rooting for crossword puzzles, but not even the ones in the New York Times right now. Because you can’t cross them. You don’t be scared by damn, don’t be scared. So you have to go buy them in the store. I’m so sorry, but they are available near the checkout.

 

Sam Sanders Also, I will say if during this New York Times tech strike, they just decide that they can no longer support connections. I’d be okay with that. I hate that game. I hate it.

 

Louis Virtel And there’s a better version of the British game show on the Connect, as I said time and time again. And they stole it from Only Connect. So go ahead. That.

 

Sam Sanders Okay. Okay. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III Bring back board games with friends. Okay. Gather round the table. Roll those dice and move your thimble past. Go and do not collect $200. Right. Yeah.

 

Sam Sanders There you go. There you go.

 

Ira Madison III All right. Sam Sanders, thank you for a great success with your presents. Once again. Thank you for having me.

 

Louis Virtel And refreshing some where we can hear you both ways.

 

Sam Sanders Yeah. Check out Vibe. Check every Wednesday wherever you get your podcast. It’s a weekly culture Catch up with my dear friends Zach Stafford, Zay Jones and me. Then on Friday, check out my interview show, The Sam Sanders Show in podcast feeds on YouTube and in L.A. on the radio Fridays and Saturdays on Case RW and all the socials at Sam Sanders. And yeah, come find me and.

 

Louis Virtel Then come back to keep it. We support our friends within reason.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah.

 

Sam Sanders Yes. And your your come to this and I’ll come to Santa Monica. Come on down to Santa Monica and tape a show.

 

Louis Virtel I may charter a helicopter. Okay.

 

Ira Madison III I won’t be I won’t be doing that. But I thank you for being here. I always love when someone, you know, disagrees with Louis on a movie. We got to get a little spicy here. Well, you know what? Mariah’s thank you to Jennifer Gray for being here with us. Now to turn it around back to her. Remember, Nicole Scherzinger famously almost did not do the Dirty Dancing, the TV version of it, because of the abortion storyline in it.

 

Louis Virtel So we support Kenny.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. Yes. She’s been going up for Jesus. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, we’ll see you next week. Read more. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok.

 

Louis Virtel You can also subscribe to keep it on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Ira Madison III Keep It is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are Chris Lord and Kennedy Hill. Our executive producers are Ira Madison, the third, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James.

 

Louis Virtel Our digital team is Megan Patsel, Claudia Shang and Rachel Gaieski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Thank you to Matt DeGroot, David Toles, Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.