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TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’ s Wednesday, July 9th, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show that is sure that Twitter’s AI bot, Grok, getting an update and immediately becoming blindingly anti-Semitic is not a horrifying vision of the future to come. Definitely not foreboding and menacing. Totally fine and cool. [music break] On today’s show, President Donald Trump calls out Russian President Vladimir Putin for his quote, “bullshit,” and someone has been using AI to impersonate Secretary of State/ National Security Advisor/Acting Archivist Marco Rubio. But let’s start with COVID. Remember COVID? 1.2 million Americans have died from the disease since 2020, and an estimated 300 people are still dying every week. So it’s a real stroke of luck that we have an esteemed champion of science and the power of vaccines in charge of the Department of Health and Human Services. Oh wait no we do not. We have Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Kennedy is a long time anti-vaccination enthusiast. I mean, he claimed in 2023 that the polio vaccine killed more people than polio did. 

[clip of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] So if you say to me, did the you know the polio vaccine was effective against polio, I’m gonna say yes. If I say, if you said to me did it kill more people that it did avert cause more deaths than avert, I would say, I don’t know because we don’t have the data on that. 

Jane Coaston: I do have the data. It did not. It absolutely did not. So it is depressing and horrifying, but not surprising to anyone besides Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, that Kennedy has been aggressively acting on that skepticism in the few months he’s been leading HHS. At the end of June, Kennedy fired every member of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Vaccine Advisory Committee, known as ACIP, or the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. He replaced them with a group of fellow vaccine skeptics, which is not a great idea under any condition, but especially when your job is to help determine which vaccinations Americans receive. In May, RFK Jr. announced that the CDC would also stop recommending COVID vaccines for pregnant women and babies. This week, the American Academy of Pediatrics and other health organizations sued him and the department, arguing the decision was, quote, “arbitrary and put kids at real risk.” Academy president Dr. Susan Kressly, explained the suit in a social media video Monday. 

[clip of Dr. Susan Kressly] The American Academy of Pediatrics isn’t standing by. We’re stepping up. We are taking legal action because we believe children deserve better. We’ve published our own immunization schedule for decades and will continue to do so because kids can’t wait for politicians to sort this out. In this moment of uncertainty, one thing remains clear. You can trust your pediatrician. You can trust the AAP, we like you, will always put our children first. 

Jane Coaston: Oh, I forgot to mention that measles cases reached a 33-year high in the U.S. It’s a great time to be an infectious disease in America. Dr. Fiona Havers was a senior advisor on vaccine policy for the CDC before resigning after the ACIP firings. We got to talk about the risks we’re facing because of these changes and what everyday people should do to keep themselves and their families safe. Dr. Fiona Havers, welcome to What A Day. 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Well, thank you very much for having me. 

Jane Coaston: A few weeks ago, you resigned from your position at the CDC as a senior advisor on vaccine policy. And the final straw for you was HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s firing of the entire Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, or the ACIP. Did those firings surprise you? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Honestly when RFK Jr. was appointed as Health and Human Services Secretary, we were all very, very concerned in the public health world. All of the things that he had been doing leading up to this was really concerning. However, the fact that he went that far and just went completely blew up the committee and fired everyone was, I would say, utterly foreseeable, but still extremely shocking when it happened. 

Jane Coaston: Can you remind me, what are the duties of that committee? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Okay, so it’s a really important outside advisory committee. It’s a group of experts that convenes to give advice to CDC on what vaccine policy should be and which vaccines are recommended for who. And it’s a very complicated process. And then three times a year, they have these public meetings where they vote on vaccine policy. And if ACIP recommends a vaccine, it is the only group that, if the CDC director signs off on it, has to be covered by insurance. In addition, there is this really important program called the Vaccine for Childrens’ Program that provides free vaccines to half of America, more than half of children in America. And this committee decides what vaccines are covered by the Vaccines for Childrens’ program. So it not only dictates like when you go to the doctor, what they look up and what they recommend for adults and children, but it also dictates insurance coverage for vaccines. 

Jane Coaston: So what would you say to someone who thinks it’s great that RFK Jr. is so-called cutting the red tape at the CDC? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: He’s not cutting the red tape. He’s blowing up an entire process. This ACIP advisory committee and CDC’s process for vaccine policy, because of the criticisms from people like RFK Jr. in the past, was put into place to be extremely transparent, extremely evidence-based, with a whole bunch of specific processes so that when this committee and the CDC changed its vaccine policy it was very clear why, what the science was, who voted for it, all of that. They had bent over backwards over decades to establish this committee and the process to be transparent. I think what is happening and the reason why I resigned was because I really didn’t feel that who he put in place was gonna take actual science, actual data and actual evidence to make policy recommendations. 

Jane Coaston: That leads to my next question, what do you think of the newly reconstituted ACIP? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: I mean, with maybe one exception, the people who are sitting on ACIP right now would never have gotten anywhere near that committee in the past. I watched the meeting and I think it was very clear from the questions that there was a huge lack of expertise. They were not the typical questions that would be asked about scientific data. Also, there was lot of really concerning things that they said during the meeting. For example, the new chair opened up the ACIP meeting saying that they were gonna revisit the childhood immunization schedule. And honestly, I think that sent chills down the spines of pediatricians across the country. Because what that means is they could start restricting access to vaccines that have been safe and effective for years. And then they also had this vote on thimerosal in flu vaccines. And that, first of all, violated all kinds of processes. Like if you bring a policy vote to ACIP, it takes months of work. They skipped all of that and then pushed a vote forward. Bypassing all normal processes but also on a topic that is just long-settled science and was very concerning. So it was, the whole meeting was a mess and this committee, I mean they basically made a farce of the entire ACIP process. 

Jane Coaston: The ACIP also discussed a bunch of other vaccines over their two days of meetings. 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: What do you think the future for CDC vaccine recommendations holds? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: I mean, I think I’m very concerned that it’s no longer going to be viewed as sort of science-based and expert-based, and it’s going to create a lot of confusion for clinicians and for patients if they’re no longer able to trust the CDC recommendations. But I think my main concern is vaccine access because this committee’s recommendations actually legally dictates insurance coverage. If they continue down this road, I mean, I do think parents are going to lose access to safe and effective vaccines, older adults may as well. Um. Because it won’t be covered by insurance. And I think it’s really concerning. 

Jane Coaston: I know that another part of your decision to leave had to do with new COVID vaccination guidance from the CDC because the CDC was actually using or misusing your data in their announcement. 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: That they would no longer recommend the COVID vaccine for healthy babies and pregnant women. What was that like to watch? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Oh, yeah. So those are some of the events that kind of like led up to this before they blew the entire thing up. RFK Jr. announced on X that CDC’s recommendations for COVID vaccines were changing. Again, not involving anyone from CDC who’s an expert on COVID vaccine policy and completely bypassing ACIP just to like announce that, oh, all of a sudden CDC is changing the recommendations. And so that really bothered me because we spent all this time putting together this very nuanced data and they just like ignored it. 

Jane Coaston: Yeah, I mean, I just pulled this information from the CDC’s website, but according to the CDC itself, pregnancy is a factor that increases the risk of severe illness from COVID and of complications that can impact your pregnancy or and your developing baby. But according to the Mayo Clinic, vaccination against COVID lowers the risks of complications significantly. Also, the vaccine helps protect unborn children from the virus. 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: So, what do you think this change in CDC policy is going to mean for pregnant women and their unborn children? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: It could potentially mean that if a pregnant woman wants to get the COVID vaccine to protect herself and also her newborn infant, um that it might mean that doctors won’t feel comfortable prescribing it because there’s not an official recommendation for CDC um for pregnant women. It also means that insurance companies don’t have to cover it. And that means that a woman who wants to get this vaccine, their doctor recommends it, may have to pay out of pocket or may not be able to get it at all. And it’s really problematic. I mean more infants were hospitalized in the last 12 months for COVID um than for influenza, even though it was a really bad flu season. And hospitalization rates for babies under six months who are protected by their mom getting vaccinated during pregnancy are still really high. So it’s a big deal that you’re leaving babies unprotected. 

Jane Coaston: On the topic of COVID, we are here speaking today in the Year of Our Lord 2025, a full five years after the pandemic began and about four years after a vaccine was rolled out. And yet, ABC News reported that in April, an average of more than 300 people died every week from the virus. How is that still happening? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: People don’t realize how bad COVID still is. COVID is a huge problem, particularly in, as we talked about, kids under two, but a lot of older adults are still really vulnerable. And the deaths from COVID have still continued to exceed deaths from influenza, if you look at sort of 12-month period. And so I’m a practicing physician, and I have seen a lot of older adults come in seriously ill from COVID. It is still a major public health problem that is causing tens of thousands of deaths in the United States every year. And it’s, as a doctor, it’s like really painful to see people come in and seriously ill from COVID that if they had gotten a vaccine, they might not be in the hospital and they might not die. So yeah, it’s still a problem. People don’t want to believe that it is.

Jane Coaston: Now um, Make America Healthy Again recently released its report on childhood chronic illness called Make Our Children Healthy Again and the report asserts that the health of American children is in crisis and it also says, surprise surprise, that part of the crisis is an uptick in autism and partially blames the quote, “growth of the childhood vaccine schedule” for that. What impact could changes to the recommended childhood vaccination schedule for kids and parents have?

Dr. Fiona Havers: Middle of a huge multi-state measles outbreak right now. This is a disease that was officially eliminated in the United States decades ago. Since RFK Jr. became HHS secretary, we’ve seen two pediatric deaths, which we hadn’t seen in a very long time. Um. And we also had 250 American children die of influenza this past year. Pertussis is on the increase and that kills babies. We are going to see an increase in vaccine preventable diseases and potentially more children becoming seriously ill or even dying from these diseases if access to vaccines is restricted or there’s increased disinfor– you know increased misinformation and confusion. So I mean, it’s really really disturbing what we’re seeing. 

Jane Coaston: You were at the CDC for 13 years. 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: What are your peers who are either still there or have also left thinking and saying about RFK Junior’s leadership? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: I would say the entire public health community is generally appalled by him, and it’s been really challenging to have him overseeing CDC. I would also say that he’s been interfering much more with CDC than any HHS secretary that I’ve ever seen. I’ve never seen an HHS Secretary get involved directly in, for example, ACIP [?] and vaccine policy. I mean, my colleagues are great. Like they are, there’s a bunch of really dedicated, data-driven people that really have been working and dedicating their careers to public health and using science to make American’s lives better. I hope they hang on. I hope people don’t follow and do what I did and leave because we still need people at CDC, but it is really hard. 

Jane Coaston: How should everyday people be responding to this? Is there something that we can be doing to benefit our families, our friends, our neighbors, our communities, if the CDC isn’t there to help? 

Dr. Fiona Havers: I guess what I would say is all of this is a non-partisan issue, like people want to take care of their families and I do think that pushing back on RFK’s, Jr.’s abuse of his power as HHS secretary and interfering with CDC’s processes. I think you know raising your voice about that would be helpful. I also think that pediatricians still have a good idea of what vaccines are benefiting their children. I think they’re still a trusted source. I think making sure that there are sources of information are reliable, I think is critical because there’s a lot of bad information out there.

Jane Coaston: Dr. Fiona Havers thank you so much for joining me. 

Dr. Fiona Havers: Well, thank you very much for having me, I appreciate it. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Dr. Fiona Havers. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

[AD BREAK] 

Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, for you want to know the truth. He’s very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless. 

Jane Coaston: Crazy. President Trump stating what has been plainly, painfully obvious for years now. He should have just said, Vladimir, stop! Trump leveled up his criticism of Russian President Vladimir Putin during a cabinet meeting Tuesday. It comes a day after Trump’s surprise announcement that the U.S. would resume weapons shipments to Ukraine in its fight against Russia. The Pentagon abruptly paused some of the shipments of military aid just last week. During Tuesday’s cabinet meeting, a reporter asked about that pause. And self-proclaimed very stable genius Trump seemed confused. 

[clip of unknown journalist] Last week the Pentagon paused some shipments of weapons to Ukraine. Did you approve of that pause? 

[clip of President Donald Trump] We want to put defensive weapons because Putin is not is not uh treating human beings right. He’s killing too many people. So we’re sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine, and I’ve approved that. 

[clip of unknown journalist] So who ordered the pause last week? 

[clip of President Donald Trump] I don’t know, why don’t you tell me? 

Jane Coaston: Always comforting when the commander-in-chief is apparently clueless about where U.S. weapons are being shipped and where they’re not. This is fine. Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins expressed support for the Trump administration’s crackdown on undocumented immigrants, including farm workers, during a press briefing Tuesday. Apparently the Secretary of Agriculture now has a say on what happens with migrants. 

[clip of Brooke Rollins] So, no amnesty under any circumstances, mass deportations continue but in a strategic and intentional way as we move our workforce toward more automation and toward a 100% American workforce. 

Jane Coaston: We’re gonna upend the lives of millions of immigrants with mass expulsions, but we’re gonna be intentional about it all. That totally makes sense. Rollins emphasized a need for strategy, so deporting hardworking laborers doesn’t mess with our food supply. 

[clip of Brooke Rollins] Ultimately the answer on this is automation, also some reform within the current governing structure, and then also when you think about there are 34 million able-bodied adults in our Medicaid program. There are plenty of workers in America. 

Jane Coaston: Yes, because supposedly able-bodied adults on Medicaid are going to be able to, or want to go work on farms on which Brooke Rollins does not work. Never mind that most of those able-bodied adults on Medicaid are already working! The White House has been grappling for months now with how to square MAGA’s callous bloodlust for deporting people with the fact that industries like farming and construction depend on migrant labor. Trump likely knows he’s in a jam, too. A few times he’s floated the idea of some sort of exemption for migrant farm workers. And during Tuesday’s cabinet meeting later in the day, he made some extra confusing comments about a supposed work program before deferring to Rollins, who didn’t appear to know what the fuck he, the president, was talking about. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] There’s no amnesty. What we’re doing is we’re getting rid of criminals, but we are doing a work program. Do you want to explain that, please? 

[clip of Brooke Rollins] Yeah, this morning uh we talked about, of course this was a top of mind question, this morning we talk about protecting the farmers in the farmland, but obviously this president’s vision of no amnesty, mass deportation continues, but in a strategic way and then ensuring that our farmers have the labor that they need. Secretary Chavez-DeRemer has been a leader on this, obviously this comes out of the Labor Department, but moving toward automation, ensuring that our our farmers have that workforce and moving toward an American work force. So all of the above. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] We gotta give the farmers the people they need, but we’re not talking amnesty. 

Jane Coaston: So to recap, mass deportations are a go, there’s no amnesty, and no clear details about so-called work programs were shared. Who will work on farms? Robots? The Supreme Court signed off on the Trump administration’s plans for mass layoffs across more than a dozen federal agencies and departments Tuesday, at least for now. The layoffs had previously been blocked by a lower court. Tuesday’s decision is not the final say in the case. The justices are just allowing the White House to implement its plans while legal challenges play out in lower courts. But that’s likely cold comfort to the thousands of workers at places like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Social Security Administration, and the Environmental Protection Agency whose jobs can now be cut. The court’s decision was unsigned, but only Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson issued a dissent. She wrote that her colleagues, quote, “demonstrated enthusiasm for greenlighting this president’s legally dubious actions,” and she called the decision, quote, “not only truly unfortunate, but also hubristic and senseless.” The State Department has warned its diplomats about recent attempts to use artificial intelligence to impersonate Secretary of State Marco Rubio, and potentially other officials. A cable was sent out last week to all U.S. Embassies and consulates. The Rubio imposter is still unknown, but the cable reportedly says they contacted at least three foreign ministers, a U. S. Governor, and a senator via voicemail, text messages, and the White House’s favorite app for sharing sensitive information, Signal. State Department Spokesperson Tammy Bruce was asked about the Rubio AI incident during a press conference Tuesday. 

[clip of Tammy Bruce] The State Department, of course, um when we think about the reports that have occurred, um we um and the details that we would like to provide become problematic, obviously, when it comes to investigations and the nature of the actions that we’re taking. So that’s what I have for you right now. 

[clip of unknown journalist 2] Well can you say anything can you tell the american people that there was no damage no violation of security?

[clip of Tammy Bruce] I will not, whether that’s the case or not, go into any of the details. 

Jane Coaston: Yes, Tammy, give us nothing. And that’s the news. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you liked the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, wish the best to the French fencer whose failed drug test was supposedly caused by kissing her partner too much, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading, and not just about how the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled on Monday that a French fencer who tested positive for an anabolic drug should be cleared because she ingested the drug from kisses with her then-partner like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.con/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston, and would you be surprised to learn that this is actually not the first time someone has successfully used the kissing defense against a doping allegation? [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Emily Fohr. Our producer is Michell Eloy. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Tyler Hill, and Laura Newcomb. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]

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