White House ignores federal orders, Fulbright scholars left stranded internationally, and California cannabis contaminated with pesticides. Myles interviews world renowned artist and model Ebonee Davis about her journey toward authorship of her book titled Daughter.

 

News

Exclusive: How the White House ignored a judge’s order to turn back deportation flights

Many Fulbright scholars say they feel stranded after the Trump administration suspended their funding

Contamination fears drive push to remake state cannabis agency

Vulgar Rangers hat selling big on secondary market as other team hats removed from MLB online shop

 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Kaya, and Sharhonda, here to talk about the news that you might have missed last week. Lord knows there’s a lot going on with regard to race, justice, and equity. And then Myles interviews artist and model Ebonee Davis, who’s here to talk about her journey toward authorship of her book titled Daughter. Here we go. [music break]

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: And we are back with our newest guest host, and that is Sharhonda, but let us jump right in. This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m Kaya Henderson at @HendersonKaya. No longer actually, you know what, bump that. I’m @Kayashines on Instagram cause I’m over that X platform BS. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And I’m Sharonda Bossier. You can find me on LinkedIn. And as I was reminded in the comments of last week’s podcast episode, I also have a Spill account. I’m at @BossierS on Spill. If you find me there, please let me know how you found me because I still don’t actually know how to work Spill. And so [laughter] [banter]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Kaya have you always been Kayashines?Like, where did Kayashines come from? 

 

Kaya Henderson: First, I was just Kaya Henderson, because, you know, whatever, that’s who I really am. But I was like, you know what, who am I in this life? I’m out here shining, no matter what happens. That’s my goal, that is my purpose in life. And so, I don’t know, a couple years ago, I became Kaya Shines. I was I was Kaya Henderson, which was like my personal account, then I was Chancellor Kaya Henderson, which was my like professional account. And I was like, you know what, who I really am is Kaya Shining. And so I was like, Kaya Shines, that’s my handle on Instagram. It has been for years now. I didn’t even use the Kaya Henderson or Chancellor Kaya. So, I mean, sorry if you are following me there cause I don’t really update, but at @KayaShines is my Instagram handle and you know, we need to shine. Don’t we?

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. Well, shine on. And you know, that makes me think about a set of people who are no longer with us, but they shine so brightly when they were alive that we need to honor them. And we did not do it on the last couple of podcasts. Uh. Angie Stone, Dwayne Wiggins of Tony, Tony, Tony, and Roy, I’m gonna mess his last name up. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Ayers. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Ayers. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Ayers. Roy Ayers. [laugh]

 

Kaya Henderson: You didn’t mess it up. Amen. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. Okay. So just wanted to um open the floor for any reflections. So, you know, life is just so short. Angie Stone was just so sad, it was a car crash. You’re like, what is going on? Um. But yeah, what reflections do you have on Angie, Roy or Dwayne Wiggins? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I mean, Tony, Tony, Tony shaped a lot of my early like musical taste, right? I remember singing those songs on the bus to church gospel choir competitions when we should not have been singing anything secular. Okay. [laughter] And–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Gospel choir competitions? 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I love it. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: My grandmother was like. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I love it. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: She had us in everything. I was also–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh that’s–

 

A junior usher. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –that’s good vacation Bible school Black. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I was an acolyte. Oh baby, we can talk about church service. Okay? Um. But you know, 64, bladder cancer, I just think is so young, so painful, so hard. Um. And I I stopped in my tracks. Um. I think often, you know, Roy Ayers lived a longer life, a fuller life, right? But I think thinking about Angie Stone and Dwayne in particular, I just um, I also saw Tony, Tony, Tony twice on their most recent tour. I like traveled to see them. Um. And I just, I’m grateful for the gifts that these people have given to music, but I think also just really reflective on like the fragility of Black life in particular in this moment. Um. And then thinking about, you know, people being gone before they hit 65, before they hit old age, before they are elders. Um. Yeah, it’s tough, but um yeah, grateful for the for what they’ve given to music and to the culture for sure. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah, I’ll pick up on that. I mean, I think I thought of Dwayne Wiggins as a contemporary, Angie Stone as a contemporary. Dwayne’s a little bit older than me. Angie is right about my age. And we’re not supposed to be dying in our late 50s and early 60s. Like that’s bananas. And um I mean, with Dwayne, I just saw Tony, Tony, Tony in the last year cause they were around and of course I would go see them. Um, and what I am sort of really sad about, I mean, I learned that he had bladder cancer, which my people tell me is incredibly painful and that he had kept it to himself. And I just have been through a lot over the last, I don’t know, six or eight months where people have had health concerns that they haven’t shared. And on the one hand, I respect your desire to be private about it. I’ve had a health concern and haven’t shared it broadly because I had to manage it for myself and couldn’t manage it for all of these other people. So I understand that. But I also know that like information is um collateral in our community. And so we need to be sharing what is going on with us so that other people can feel okay with whatever is going on with them. We are not going to beat back health issues, especially in a system that is that maintains health disparities, unless we actually talk about what’s happening with us. And so there was a piece of me that felt very, very um sad that like we learned about Dwayne Wiggins sort of in the end and whatnot. And on the Angie Stone thing, I gotta say, I’m not a conspiracist, I really am not. But it is crazy that there were all these people on this bus and she’s the only person who died, right? And she was the one who was raising issues about payment for artists and all of this kind of thing. Again, not a conspiracist, but I feel like it’s super weird that she and nobody else died on this bus. So I’ll leave that for you. I’m just saying, you know it’s hard to be a Black person in America.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: 100%. 100%. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Honestly. You know, get the tinfoil hat out. I think that, you know, I have my tinfoil hat is just always at the ready. And I think you’re, Angie Stone’s memorial, beautiful. Music spoke, um Lauren Hill performed, you know, like just so many um, wait, did Lauren Hill perform at her? Oh that was–

 

Kaya Henderson: No, she was at Roberta Flack’s. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Roberta Flack. Lord. I’m just, Roberta Flack also died. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But wait, can I but can I say one thing about that? So I I, Roberta Flack, bless her whole entire soul. First of all, I mean, my mother was a big Roberta Flack fan so I grew up in the house cleaning on Saturday mornings. Like she was one of the people who was in our roll-up. But I got to meet her because as the chancellor of DC public schools, she had been a DCPS teacher. And you know, she graduated from Howard when she was, I don’t know. super young, and she came to teach in DCPS, and she was actually um discovered singing at a bar on Capitol Hill that is still sort of relevant and whatnot. She came to our, we have a thing called the Standing Ovation for DC teachers. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Oh yeah. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And it used to be at the Kennedy Center, and we would bring out all of the most, like prestigious people that we possibly could to salute our highest performing teachers. And she was like, I have to be there. I was a DCPS teacher. There was nothing like this when I was here. This is amazing. Um. It was during Hurricane Sandy. Like and I it was like all of the things made it like crazy for us to even put it together. And she was like, I will do whatever it takes. And the one thing, you know, because I always got something to say about everything. I appreciate the Lauren Hill Wyclef salute. I appreciate their reinterpretation of one of her most iconic songs. But I would be dishonest if I did not express my discomfort with like, I don’t know, my funeral is supposed to be about me, is what I’m saying, right? My funeral is supposed to be about me, you should be talking about Kaya Henderson. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t do the remix. Don’t do the remix at the funeral. Do the original at the funeral. That’s what you said, Kaya. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m just, I’m asking for a friend. [laughter]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t do the remix at the funeral. Do the original. 

 

Kaya Henderson: This is not, listen, I want Lauren and Wyclef to have their moment and bring the thing back and all of that jazz. I just am not exactly sure that Roberta Fleck’s funeral is the place for that, but I might be an old lady. This might be super respectable and y’all should call me on that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love it. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But I’m just saying, no, but I’m just saying y’all, cause y’all are likely to, I mean, not, we can’t–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Whatever. But if y’all are at my funeral and somebody else is a bigger star at my funeral than I am. Hem that stuff up, we not having that. We not having that.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: First of all, you got a whole–

 

Kaya Henderson: They can do their thing lots of other places okay. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: You got a whole cadre of people who are going to work the door at your service. So you–

 

Kaya Henderson: Thank you. Thank you.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: We already know. [laughter] We already know.

 

DeRay Mckesson: I want to correct the record. Keke Wyatt performed at Angie’s memorial. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Okay. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And Keke was great. She sung His Eyes on the Sparrow, if I if I remember correctly. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Now, the other thing I want to say shout out to Roberta Flack for is firing Luther Vandross so we got him as a solo act because he had been [shout and clap in the background] singing background for her. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Background! That’s true.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And she was like, actually, no, sir. [laugh]

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah yeah yeah. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: You go do your own thing. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Go do your own thing. Yeah.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And so shout out for the gift that is her own writing and singing and arranging and shout out for the gift. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: That is Luther Vandross as a solo artist because of Roberta Fleck. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Mm hmm.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Now, Kaya, when you were talking about Roy Ayers, right? I got it right? I got it right? 

 

Kaya Henderson: You got it right. Yes. [laugh]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Whew um. It made me think of all the times I didn’t go to the hospital when I or like to the doctors when I was a kid, because my father was like, you know, it’ll be okay, or we didn’t have money for the emergency room or, you know, we didn’t have health insurance. And I do think about this political moment where, you know, what’s happening in the federal government, the cuts, and da da da, people don’t quite realize that this is going to impact them quickly. They’re like, there’s like a disconnect between sort of what they see with health and human services or um the conversation about the vaccines not being real or the people dying from measles, which we haven’t seen in a hundred years. 

 

Kaya Henderson: My God. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And I wanted to just bring that up because it is interesting because they’re both people who just don’t access healthcare for a whole lot of historical reasons uh who I think are not paying attention to this one, or we have not actually told the story in a way that helps them connect with what’s happening on the federal level. So I wanna like talk about, there’s a lot going on at the federal level, but I am interested in like the Medicare, the cuts to social security, the health and human services stuff that I think people will start to feel really quickly, in addition to the gazillion people being laid off. Like, you know, I don’t know what you do in the economy when you lay off 20,000 people in one week. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Like that is just wild too. So I wanted to ask what was on either of your minds about these? 

 

Kaya Henderson: I mean, what I’ll say is I think what is interesting about this is the media coverage, right? So the media coverage is very excited about the, like, drastic cuts that are being made, right? But they are not equally passionate about the repercussion of those cuts. So for example Mr. Trump put a whole bunch, he used a an obscure 1780 something wartime policy that enabled him to ship these Venezuelans out and the courts were like, mm mm no, no, and I don’t care if the planes are in the air, turn those Mickey Vickies around and bring them back, right? They’re all their probationary employees that they fired with the at the federal government. A judge has now ordered them to bring them back. Um. There’s also just like error, right? So they fired a bunch of people at um NOAA, which is about weather and whatnot. And then they were like, oh, NOAA and the IRS, what season is this, tax season? And they’re like, oh uh, we know we fired you, but that was my mistake. We need everybody back by March 12th or March 15th or whatever, whatever. And so I think that number one, I like I understand what the Trump administration is trying to do, which is we just gonna hit on every front that we possibly can, right? And if there’s 20 fronts and three of them are wrong, like 17 are right, and so we’re gonna go hard. I understand that. But I am most dismayed by, I guess the person who’s called the third estate, who has a tremendous role in ours in how we view society. And they are so busy trying to cover all of these things that he’s doing, and they are not actually coming back to say, this got beat back, that got beat back, the other thing got beat back. And so I feel like they’re feeding the beast of the Republican base, right? Which is, he’s in here, he’s doing all of the things that people wouldn’t do and blah, blah, blah. Well, there’s a reason why people wouldn’t do those things, because it’s illegal, or because it is not sort of appropriate. And I think the press has an obligation to help people understand that for all of the drastic, you know, turns that the administration are taking, the vast majority of them are being pushed back. But they don’t. And Steve Bannon said a couple years ago, there’s an interview and he’s like, the media is the enemy. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Mm hmm. 

 

Kaya Henderson: He’s like, if we can just keep them on their heels, just trying to cover all of the things that we throw out, we will control everything. And I feel like we’re seeing that. The media can’t figure out whether it’s going right, left, or otherwise, and they’re so in search of being the first one to have the scoop of the new thing that he’s doing. They’re not actually telling people what is getting undone or what’s not getting done. And the real problem, I mean, I’m not a I’m not a person who thought that. three news stations controlling the world was the right thing for us. But there is no place where everybody can get objective news because we’re all discreetly listening to one thing or another. And so my worry is that the press is not doing a good job of being objective about this administration. They’re so busy chasing the headlines that they can’t give Americans a full and total picture. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: First of all, like the idea of of the fourth estate, right, and the media having influence beyond just what it covers explicitly, I think they have been running from since the first Trump term, to your point about Vanden and others putting them on on their heels. I also do wonder if the fourth estate truly exists in the way that it used to 10, 15 years ago. 

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s fair. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Um, and I think a lot of people now, to your point of us living in these sort of silos or segmented realities, like, you know, when I ask people what podcasts they’re listening to or where they get most of their news, most of, most people are getting their news from people who are like culture people who happen to slip in politics, right? And I think especially if they are young, especially if they are young men, um, and I think in some ways cable news and the rise of the pundit made space for this, right? Because it was like, instead of being a reporter and a journalist and trying to do the things that journalists were trained to do, you have pundits who like got these prime time slots and their whole goal was to build audiences and then keep those audiences, right? And so I think that having shifted to podcast, and I think about the hours a day that I spend with podcasts playing in the background, right? Now I mostly listen to like true crime and culture, right? Um. But there are likely things that like, historically I would have caught if I had CBS on in the background that like I just don’t have on anymore. And I think, you know, most people who think of themselves as not political or not people who are really interested in the news are listening to what their favorite boxer thinks about who’s running for office. Right?

 

DeRay Mckesson: So scary. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And like when that is, when that is the fourth estate, when Nellie and Floyd Mayweather or who we are asking who we should vote for y’all, we are in deep, deep trouble, you know? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: When I think about the stories not being told too, and I do think part of is the overwhelming nature of it, because like when you cut 50% of the Department of Education, you just fire 1,500 people, you’re going to cut 10,000 people from the post office. You know I actually expected to see stories about the impact on those people’s lives, like that is. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yes. Yes.

 

DeRay Mckesson: You’re dealing with a lot of, post office? You fired 10,000 people at the post office? People are going to be homeless.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: That’s your racial justice angle. That’s your economic justice angle is the federal employee yeah.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh my God, people are going to be homeless, they’re going to be without health insurance, they’re going to have no daycare. Like the impact will be so monumental. And I’ve been shocked at the news, just treating them as a rounding error. Like, oh, 10,000 today. You’re like, these are people, this is crazy. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But I don’t, I don’t, I actually don’t think that they are treating them as a rounding error. I really think that—

 

DeRay Mckesson: You don’t? 

 

Kaya Henderson: No, I think that people don’t understand systems. This is the same thing with school systems. People are like, school systems are big bureaucracies. We should break them apart, right? Let’s bring in charters. Let them do whatever they wanna do and blah, blah. And you know what they did? They built the same bureaucracy that school system built. Why? Because it’s actually not just a big bloated bureaucracy. There is a way to manage a large set of schools at scale. And it doesn’t, it is not every single school trying to figure out their recruitment things and their human resource things and whatnot. It’s taking those things away from schools so that they could concentrate on the things that make the most sense. What I’m saying to you is, I think that this administration has such disdain for the bureaucracy that they actually don’t technically understand what this bureaucracy does. And so they make these sweeping, you know, whatever decrees. And this is why you have people, you know, these people fired half the people at IRS in the middle of tax season. I mean, I’m not a, I have never run a big government system. Maybe I have because I ran a school system, but I mean, like not a big federal agency. But it seems to me that I would figure out pretty quickly that maybe we should not fire half of the IRS in the middle of tax season when I need that money to come in. And so they sent an email that was like, oh, hey, er uh we sent that termination letter to you in error. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: In error. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And we need everybody to come back on the March 12th. Like, I think that I think that these people don’t have a deep enough understanding of the intersectionalities in how this system works. And so they are this is why everything keeps getting flipped back because they do these wild things without having a clear understanding. I mean, there’s I to me, there’s– 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That’s not what I said. 

 

Kaya Henderson: –no way. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: But I agree with you. That wasn’t what I was saying, but I agree with you. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Okay. Sorry, what were you saying? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: No, I was saying that I think, I’m shocked that the news is not reporting on the lives of the people getting terminated, like the [?]–

 

Kaya Henderson: Well but I understand that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But I think the news doesn’t understand either all of these intricacies, right? And I think the news is so busy trying to chase the scoop of the new administration. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I agree with you on that. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And what they’re doing. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yes yes. 

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s what Bannon said. He’s like, let’s just keep distracting them. Because if they did tell these stories, Americans are not down for what’s happening to regular people who have given their lives to our country. They’re not down for that. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think also related to your earlier point, Kaya, it’s because the press isn’t following any story to the end, right? So they know that they’re not connecting the dots for people. So they’re going to get credit for the disruption. They’re going to get credit for that. And even if they have to roll it back or walk it back, they know that no one’s going to be paying attention to that, right? 

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s right. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Both because of the way media has covered this and because transparently Americans have amazingly short attention spans. 

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s right. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And it’s very true to historical memory, right? And so I think they’re like, look, we do it, we’ll give the credit for the disruption. If it turns out we’re wrong about it, who cares? Nobody will be paying attention when we have to fix it. It’s like when they print a retraction in the newspaper, right, you ain’t never seen that retraction. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Never seen it, that’s right. It’s in some little obscure place. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. 

 

Kaya Henderson: On the fourth page on the bottom. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And nobody [?]. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly we are never seeing those retractions and they know it. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, the funny thing about not talking about stuff before the podcast is I’m like, I don’t really know where what’s [?] going to be like, but I’m in the team Obama need to do something. And like Obama needs a press conference. I’m in a I’m in the–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Obama, Biden, I don’t know, we can just, he gets to this one out. But I’m in the Obama needs, if he holds a press conference, the press will come. Then what I don’t know what else you could do to to piss Trump off. He’s already pissed. But I, you know, AOC feels like she’s single handedly holding down the sanity on that side. Her and Jasmine. Her and Jasmine, I don’t know I’m like–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Jasmine is making, Jasmine is making TikTok videos. And we, we–

 

DeRay Mckesson: I know I’m trying to give her a little credit though. Trying to give Jasmine–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: People are losing their jobs, Jasmine. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m trying to give Jasmine a little credit. At least she’s saying the truth, which I appreciate. But–

 

Kaya Henderson: This is why I love this podcast. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: [?]. You know, because I’m sitting here like, can we get Obama on, you know, people say he didn’t sign up for it. He did sign up for it. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Hold it, hold it. Wait, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I’m, I’m a defend my president, because–

 

DeRay Mckesson: I love him! And he–

 

Kaya Henderson: I didn’t, I, I didn’t say you–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Press conference. 

 

Kaya Henderson: –didn’t love him. What I am saying to you is, that man did everything that we asked him to do. He ran two times, he rescued the messed up economy, he brought the people together, he did all of the things. And, and, and maybe I’m speaking for myself. After eight years of all of that, with the whole fricking Republican party blocking, trying to block everything that he did and he still got things done, we’re like, Mr. Obama, can you please come save us? Can you come do a press conference? And–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Because it wasn’t a eight year commitment. It wasn’t a eight year commitment. This is a lifetime thing. You signed up buddy. Here we are. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m I’m I disagree with that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Nope. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I disagree with that. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think that unprecedented times call for unprecedented responses. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Thank you I’m with you. Hallelujah.

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And I think pre, I think historically. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Wait, hold on, say more. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Historically, presidents have stayed out of other presidents’ business, right? They fade into the background. Like they go pick up water coloring, whatever. Right. They, they go become–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Grandparents, right? 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. [?].

 

Sharhonda Bossier: They start a charity. They start a foundation. Exactly. Right. Um. Obama, every time I see him, he looks like he’s been out chasing an endless summer, right? That man ain’t never not got a tan, okay? Like, tan is fresh, Michelle’s hair is braided. I’m like, oh, y’all are living, okay? Um. But I do think that in this moment, we do need our our previous leaders to say to us that we’re not imagining that this is not okay, this is unprecedented, right? I also think that for better or for worse, and whether he embraces it, Obama is the most television-friendly living U.S. president. And what the right has figured out is is the media. Right. They have figured out how to get on TV, they have figured out how to get on podcasts, they have figured out how to trend on social, and like the left, to the extent that one even exists in the US, has not figured that out yet. Right? And I’m so sorry, but seeing Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi at a press conference. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: They not it. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Singing We Shall Overcome is not it. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But wait. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: It’s not it. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But can I but can I say this one thing and that is that like the real failure of the real failure of the Democratic Party is not passing the baton on. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yes. 

 

Kaya Henderson: To other people. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yes. 

 

Kaya Henderson: We’re like Obama, he could save us because he did, like that’s not his job. Why haven’t–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Because there was nobody on the bench behind him. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Why haven’t we as a Democratic Party shared power and I’m I am being very specific about this because these old heads are holding on to power like nobody’s business. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Now I grew up in Maxine Waters district so you ain’t gonna get no pushback from me on that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: So let me go to my news. So my news is about, Kaya previewed a little bit of it, but about the um the people that the White House accuses of being in the Venezuelan gang that they have just deported. Um. And they were sued. There were two plane loads of alleged Venezuelan gang members. Um. And the courts told them that they cannot deport these people. And the Trump administration has publicly said that because the flights were over international waters. That the ruling–

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh, that they don’t have jurisdiction. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That they do not have jurisdiction. So everbody–

 

Kaya Henderson: Stop the madness. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, this is clear defiance of the federal courts. Um. And the administration has come out and said that, and I quote, “This is headed to the Supreme Court and we’re going to win,” a senior White House official told Axios, and then I quote, “It’s very important that people understand we are not actively defying court orders.” So he is, the Trump team is invoking the Alien Enemies Act of 1789. There were two- 

 

Kaya Henderson: You no, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, you know for a fact that if you got to go all the way back to 1789 for a law, you know this thing is janky as all get out, you know it. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: And the Alien Enemies Act allows the government to detain and remove immigrants when there is, quote, “a declared war between the United States– 

 

Kaya Henderson: There’s no, what’s the war? What’s the war? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –and any foreign nation or government.”

 

Kaya Henderson: What’s the war? What’s the war? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It could also apply in cases when a foreign government has, quote, “perpetrated, attempted, or threatened an invasion or predatory incursion of the U.S.”

 

Kaya Henderson: Where is that? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Tell me, who? Who? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: So it’s only been used three times. 

 

Kaya Henderson: It’s not Venezuela! 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Since its passage during the War of 1812, World War I, and World War II. It is now being used uh today.

 

Kaya Henderson: But that’s why the judge was like, turn the planes around in the air. This is some, and and here’s the thing. What I will say is, I’m I’m not a hate the player, I’m kind of hate the game kind of girl, right? And so I, I’m not mad that the Trumpsters are pulling out every possible stop that they can to get their agenda through. Like cause guess what, if I was in that place, I would be pulling out every possible stop too. However, you can’t just do whatever you want to do. And I was watching this um piece on social media this weekend from Georgetown’s law school, which was sort of breaking down um when in the past, presidential administrations had ignored court orders. And what it said was like court orders are infallible. even if the court order is illegal, until somebody pulls it down, as long as it stands, you have to abide by it. And that’s the one thing that we’ve never kind of faltered on. And so there are ways that the courts can actually be quite activist, not the Supreme Court, but um all kinds of other courts, by holding people in civil contempt. So what this thing was saying is you know, for example, the judge is like, you got to give USAID their money, stop playing, right? And if the Trump administration continues to say they will not, they won’t go after Mr. Trump because of presidential courtesy or executive courtesy, but they will go after the heads of these departments and hold them in civil contempt. And in civil contempt, the president can’t pardon you. Nobody can commute your sentence, no whatever. And so there are lots of times in history where when things were going off the rails, the courts, and and this is what the people say, watch the courts, these courts are not crazy, these courts are not, like these are people who have sworn an oath to the Constitution of the United States, not to the current president. And so the prediction is, and we’ve seen, I mean, almost every major thing that this administration has tried to do, some court has come back and said, this is not kosher, we can’t do that. And so the next real big move from the courts is that they will start holding people in civil contempt and put these agency heads and their top tier teams into jail, and the president can’t do anything about it. And so I think it’s going to be interesting to watch kind of how all of this stuff happens. But I also think, you know, these people are going for broke. They’ve chosen a 1789 or 98 or whatever it is law to try to get done what they want to do. And I think your article illustrates that like we not just rolling over and letting this thing go. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It is interesting because they um  you know if you need to be at war to invoke the Alien Act, they are sort of like, well, we are at war because there’s an invasion of people coming into the country illegally. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Mm hm. That’s not war. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That is the–

 

Kaya Henderson: Who have we declared war against? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That is a Trump thing. So–

 

Kaya Henderson: The brown hoards of people. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I bring it here because, right right, [laughter] well, you know, they got, they got that, did you say the story of the white man that they, that they roughed up, ICE roughed him up? There’s a white man that um that they roughed up on a visa issue and it was a big deal for people. But I brought it here. I know, Kaya, you already talked about it. So Sharhonda, interested to see what you have to say, but I brought it because I’m fascinated to see what what happens here. And also, what is the Supreme Court willing to co-sign? How far are they willing to go with things like this? Because, as you know, all of these people accused of being in a Venezuelan gang did not get any due process. They are being shipped to a prison in another country. And who knows if they have any affiliation with Venezuela? Who knows? This could be any old body that they just picked up. Who knows? And this feels really scary in general. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: I think it is really scary and I think we’re seeing right now things that everyone should be terrified about, right? Um. I think even when we think about like Mahmoud Khalil, right, the the Columbia um graduate student, right? And like, having him uh you know them coming and saying like we’re we’re revoking his green card it’s like oh he’s not you know like that’s not even how he’s here or his visa excuse me sorry he’s here on a green card right and then having him be detained in Louisiana and then having him not have access to counsel and like these things should terrify us as americans right but I do think that um the courts have been willing to co-sign quite a lot and they have been willing to stand down quite frequently. And my sense is that watching, at least in Trump’s first term, there were Republicans who pretended to be part of some sort of conservative resistance, to him sort of, you know, bowling over and steamrolling everybody. But that seems to have also disappeared and dissipated. And so everybody who was like, you know, I’m an originalist. My interpretation of the Constitution is X or Y or Z. And my interpretation of executive power is A, B or C. All of those people are silent now. And I think without people being willing to, again, help us understand how unprecedented these actions are, why they should terrify all of us, and without a set of Supreme Court justices who seem to be more willing to rule or decide uh in ways that might be out of step with widely understood party preferences and positions, I think we’re all screwed, right? Um. And I think the Republicans for a long time, at least for as long as I have been alive, right, have been stacking lower courts. So they are anticipating favorable decisions all the way up. It’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a sort of a game of attrition for lack of a better way of saying it. They’re hoping that the resistance stands down or that they have enough time to execute on this that by the time they have to reverse course or change their actions right like most of it is already done. I think there’s also a hope that those people we put on the plane don’t want to come back and don’t attempt to come back and then they’ll be able to claim both bureaucratic and financial burdens if if courts rule that they have to figure out how bring them back, right? So. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Right, oh that’s that’s–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: It’s terrifying.

 

DeRay Mckesson: –tricky. I didn’t think about that. Yeah, because you, how are they getting back? You know, they, we flew them there. You know, like if the court says bring them back, I could see them sending 30 planes just so it costs a lot of money. They would do that. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Mm hmm. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

Kaya Henderson: So um my news is still around the same vein. I think um I’m bringing it to the podcast because I think I under what I keep hearing from my friends who are Republicans and conservatives is bureaucracy, drain the swamp, blah, blah, blah. And I don’t think that they have a clear idea of how some of these policy decisions hit people. And so I brought this here because I actually feel like this is mother’s milk. This is Americana. This is apple pie. The Fulbright Scholarship, which is one of the most prestigious scholarships in the world, where we take our best and brightest college students, college graduates, and the State Department pays for them to go abroad and study a thing for a year or so. They pay their housing and their tuition if they’re going to school, and groceries, living expenses, et cetera. And what many people have know–, and if you get a Fulbright Scholarship, like your whole town is having a parade for you because you have gotten a Fulbright. And there are all of these young people, thousands actually of Fulbright Scholars who are posted abroad. and the Trump administration decided to um end or freeze this program in mid-February. And so these young people don’t have the money that they are supposed to have. They were supposed to get money in their accounts um mid-February, and they don’t have they did not. They got an email saying, we’re freezing the program. So these young people don’t have money for rent. They don’t have money for groceries. They don’t have money for living expenses. These are our best and our brightest young people who we have sent abroad to study all of these different things. Normally they get a monthly stipend from the scholarship agency but um many of these scholarships are just not being funded and these people not only can’t continue the work that they are doing. there’s also no way for them to come back because the State Department actually pays for them to come back. And so these are young people, our smartest young people who are stranded overseas without the means to take care of themselves day to day and without an exit strategy. And I brought this to the podcast because when I think to myself about make America great again, if I just wanted to go all in and say, all right, cool, I’m down to make America great again. Is a great America one where we leave our young people, our smartest young people, overseas? Like, there has to be a different way, as far as I’m concerned, because my guess is if I talk to people in middle America, or the Midwest, or, or I don’t know, left or right or top or bottom, I don’t I don’t think that regular Americans mean for us to leave our kids overseas without. the money to take care of themselves, or at least a way back. And so, I think, and I you know I think a lot about, I’ve been thinking a lot about um the USAID stuff, where it’s one thing to think about how we subsidize other countries, and maybe we don’t wanna do that. I could actually see that. That feels fair to me. But when you think about the fact that USAID buys the food– 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: That our farmers grow. 

 

Kaya Henderson: –[?] people from our farmers and manufacturers. And so by stopping this, you’re not just hindering, you know, poor people in other countries, you’re actually decimating the farming and manufacturing industry here in the United States. And so I bring this to the podcast because I think there are lots of unintended consequences. I I understand that the Republican base wants to drain the swamp and like, stop focusing on other people and focus on us. But I don’t think that people understand the downstream intricacies that like, we don’t wanna take care of those people in other countries. Super cool, but but our farmers and our manufacturers are going to get hit by that. Add to that the tariffs and these people can’t do it anymore. And and maybe you don’t care about that, but don’t you care about college students who have one of the most prestigious scholarship that you could actually ever win. And we just left them high and dry in these countries without a clear way to get back or a clear way to continue to live. And so that’s why I brought this article to the podcast. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. I mean, I, we have all been to government offices waiting for service, stood in line, looked at people behind the plexiglass and then wondered what their job was. You know what I mean? If it’s not to serve us, we’ve all been there. We’ve all been like, you know what? This we could probably do this better. Right. And so I don’t think most people would disagree that there should, there could be some auditing and redeploying of capacity and resources. Right. I think we would all agree there. I do think to your point though, um there there is what commitments we have made to young people. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And they’re and like we’ve got to honor those and see those through and I also think that there is an undervaluing of the role that these programs play as an arm of, um U.S. diplomacy. Right? 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. Absolutely. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Like, if we are thinking about the U.S.’s standing in the world, part of the way that people don’t hate us is that they get to experience us as real people. Right? No, I’m so–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Outside of–

 

Sharhonda Bossier: –serious. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Outside of uh–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –loving hip hop. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. You know what I mean? Where you’re like. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes this is right. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And so, and and people then bring back with them a perspective that shapes how we engage with those countries, right? Like this is–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And like the the missing and the undervaluing of that is really striking to me. But I also think is reflective of the fact that most Americans don’t spend time abroad. So don’t get the value of it. They don’t see the U.S.’s fingerprints in other places. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Right? But we’ve all been there. We’ve landed somewhere and they’ve been like this bridge, courtesy of the USA. And you can like, oh, ok, good for us. You know, and then you’re like people are like, oh, you’re an American. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Sometimes. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: And you get sometimes. Sometimes you go places and you’re an American and you get like expedited service and all sorts of other things. Right. That is the direct result of either our aid. or of people having good experiences with our fellow countrymen when they visit, right? And I think removing that opportunity, uh I think, makes it harder for those of us who care about our standing in the world uh to [?] continue to occupy like a privileged space. And I recognize that like power is shifting. We’re moving from I understand that, right? But I think to your point, Kaya, um it’ll be really fascinating to see because this is a hit that hits among the most privileged Americans, right? Um and that like class actually does matter um when we talk about who was impacted by this and so–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yup. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: When you your dream is for your child to be a Fulbright Scholar, right? Um. And you have potentially donated to this campaign. I wonder I want to know what that that call sounds like. I want to know what you what you’re saying about your kid being stranded abroad, because I know you’re putting in a call because that’s all you ever do. So I want to know what the conversation sounds like for sure. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: There are two things that come to mind for me. One is echoing what you just said. You know, this is a, Myles is not with us this week, but Myles has continued to push about making sure that we talk about the the class impact that is happening and being honest about it. That sometimes the main story in the news is only people in the upper class and people, some people can’t even, don’t even have the luxury of thinking that this is a problem, right? So, you know, is it interesting, Myles pushed back around the FAA, he’s like, you know, think about all the people, Myles is like, think about all the people. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Who don’t fly. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Who will never fly, who have never flown. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: The airport is like a–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah that’s true. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Once a year thing, it’s not a every week thing, right? And I was like, I didn’t think about that as a class thing to me. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Whew my global entry expired, I got stuck behind those people. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. [laugh] Um. But I do think one of the things that’s interesting too is Kaya and Sharhonda, Sharhonda, which you just talked about with this idea that what happens when the most privileged people are impacted and what what is [?] for them. you know, they are not showing up at town hall forums in the same way that Black people, like our way of direct action is not really the town halls, like they—

 

Kaya Henderson: It’s different, that’s right. It’s different.

 

DeRay Mckesson: And you know, people see those town halls and they’re like, where are the Black people as if Black people don’t care. But you’re like, no, Black people got a lot of other things to do and cannot, just cannot come at five o’clock from five to six and sit in a–

 

Kaya Henderson: Right. That’s not that’s not our vehicle. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That’s–

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s not our vehicle. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –not our thing, which doesn’t mean that we don’t care, but I’m interested in that. And the second thing I’m interested in is, like I said at the beginning, um  the human impact stories, I’m surprised that there’s not like one, like an Instagram account, or like a, like somebody calling the parents of these kids or like calling the kids and being like, hey, you know, do you even have somebody at the State Department to call or calling, you know, 50 post office workers who are now suddenly trying to figure out if they are homeless or not, like. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Cause I do think that the, you know, just what’s that, what’s that Instagram account, humans in New York? What is it? 

 

Kaya Henderson: Humans of New York, yeah, humans of New York. Yeah mm hmm.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Like I’m thinking about like where is that for the impact on the Trump administration? Cause I look up and I’m like, I saw that news about 10,000 post office employees. I’m like, you know, yeah. And then the third thing I’ll say, I know I said two things, but I got three, is that I am interested in the way um this will potentially change people’s, um the way people judge government assistance. I always think about like, TeRay’s in Delaware, my sister’s a teacher and during COVID, everybody got food stamps. That was the way they distributed government aid. So everybody, regardless of socioeconomic status, is all carrying around a food stamp card. So she’s like, you know, I make enough money that I don’t qualify for food stamps, but we all got it. So she’s like, we are all, it just normalized food stamps as sort of like a, everybody is in it. And I’m interested, you know, I think about how negative people are about people who are homeless. And what happens when you suddenly got fired on a Monday by Trump and you don’t have five months of savings, like, you know, and all of a sudden you are going to the same office downtown as somebody that you were judging before. And I’m interested in what that will look like as we continue. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Um. Well, my news this week, I was joking offline that I feel like I’m the auntie of the podcast where I’m like, yes, pleasure for everyone, but also smart pleasure. Last week, we talked about STIs. This week, we’re talking about drugs. So uh my news this week is about contaminants and pesticides that are found in legalized weed in California. Um. So as you all may know, California has a five billion with a B dollar legal weed industry. Uh and the New York Times and a host of other–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Crazy, by the way, just crazy. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Yes, it’s wild.

 

I just gotta say that. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: It’s wild. Uh. And I mean, California has always had a sort of laissez-faire attitude towards some communities use of of recreational marijuana, right? So the legalization of it in the state for recreational purposes was at least as you know, policymakers were talking about an attempt at capturing some of that potential tax revenue, right? Um. But a series of research studies, you know, helmed by the LA Times and a couple of other research organizations found that there are 80 pesticides found in most commercially grown cannabis in California. Um. And those pesticides are linked to things like cancer and liver failure and thyroid disease and genetic and neurological damage in in, you know, unborn children, etc. Um, and I think it’s really important for people to know because, you know, smoking pesticides is probably one of the worst ways to come in contact with them, right? And it’s even worse if you’re vaping, which I also know a lot of people do. Um, and so just want to make sure that we are bringing that to the pod so that people have an understanding of like, you know, most of these things are found in sort of low enough levels that unless you’re doing sort of overuse or repeated use, it’s unlikely to impact you, though that’s not true for all of the carcinogens that were found in the cannabis. And I think the last thing is that like, you know, the state of California spent five million dollars on a campaign to convince residents that the legal weed was safe and that it was tested and that you could trust it um because they wanted us to buy weed and I know a lot of people who now buy weed and smoke weed or you know take edibles or do vapes that did not before um because now you can go into a store and have like a luxury shopping experience right when you were thinking about it um and we just don’t know that state regulators aren’t testing for pesticides and carcinogens in the way that they should. And so um again, like, do what you need to do, right? I’m a Black woman in Trump’s America. I’m not telling nobody to stay sober, but what I am saying is know that what you are doing um comes with a little bit more risk than you might be aware of. Um. And, you know, maybe support your local organic grower. [laughing]

 

DeRay Mckesson: The Weed Man was safer than all of this stuff. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: The weed man was safer, the weed man was safer. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Sharhonda, I wouldn’t have even asked this question when you put this in, I was like, I wouldn’t have even, you know, this is this is capitalism at its finest in the effort to scale the operation, you are poisoning people. But when homie was growing it in his backyard, it was, you know, it was just enough for the clientele. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You made and used what you needed to and you weren’t you didn’t need to use pesticides because you were trying to grow 10 acres of weed. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. Exactly. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Wow. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Um, I will say that, um, it, it just feels so conspiracist. Like–. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Put the tin hat on. 

 

Kaya Henderson: It, yeah, my tin hat is on. I mean, if you think about the people who are affected by, with weed, you know, con– arrests and convictions over the last 30 years, and then you pull those people forward and you know, there’s a whole lot of brouhaha about whether or not they can participate in the cannabis industry now, since it is lucrative. Um. But there is also the like, it don’t matter what folks do. Like it feels like somebody is coming for us. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Mmm. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Us is the royal us, because I don’t smoke weed, I don’t vape, I don’t, that’s not my thing. But um when I look at how pervasive this is in Black and Brown communities, it feels to me like if we can go to Whole Paychecks, we call it Whole Foods is the official name, but if we can go to Whole Paychecks and get organic everything and oat milk and blah blah blah, why should we have to contend with carcinogens in the legalized, what’s the point of being legalized. 

 

Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. 

 

Kaya Henderson: If you’re not actually holding people or inspecting people to particular health outcomes and and solutions. And if you’re not, then stop. Like this is, you trying to kill us. Like you trying to kill the people. I don’t, I mean, I don’t know any other way to sort of say it, but I think it is like the FDA can’t have it both ways. You can’t slow pedal and not hold people accountable. Like and you can invite people into the industry, but at the very least of what the industry does, it should keep people alive. And what I hear you saying, Sharhonda, is this is not even keeping us alive, like, yikes. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

Myles E. Johnson: Just to contextualize Ebonee Davis outside of like author, musician, supermodelhood. Um. I was sick and I was supposed to um meet her and I told her that I wasn’t feeling well so I wanted to apologize. And then in response, not only did she say, you know, it was okay, but in response, she gave me like this most beautiful prayer affirmation. And to me, it’s like those little moments that let you know like what the spirit of a person is. And also um with like reading and like kind of getting into the book, it also lets me know why this cycle of death and rebirth had to happen with you because if you’re kind of carrying that type of light, um–

 

Ebonee Davis: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: You need to protect it. So um so yeah, I just wanted to contextualize the kind of spirit Ebonee is. Ebonee, can you tell people outside of the vain things I just listed um a little bit about who you are? 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. Um. I’m originally from Seattle, Washington. I’m currently based in Atlanta, Georgia. Um. At 19 years old, I moved to New York City to pursue a full-time modeling career. Um. I spent seven years there in pursuit of that career. And it just, you know, there was a lot of trial, there was a lot of error, there was a lot of victory, there was a lot of failure, you know, and it really just showed me a lot about myself. And I think, like you said, it really fortified my spirit and my sense of who I am outside of the modeling industry. It really showed me what my purpose is here on Earth. And it’s to really be that beacon of light, be that inspiration, um and walk in the light of God and allow that love to to pour through me. And in order to get to this place where I could be that um vessel, I had to empty out my own egos, my own selfish wants, my own desires, right? And, and also my own limiting beliefs about myself because when I moved to New York, I I felt like I wasn’t good enough. I felt like I wasn’t beautiful enough. You know I was rejected over and over by so many agencies. That took a toll on my self-esteem. Um. There were you know relationships. Like there were just so many instances and occurrences that played a role in how I viewed myself. And so and so in order to walk in that light, I had to go through a massive upheaval and healing journey. And you know now that I’m in this place within myself and within my soul and my spirit, I can be grateful for those massive moments of upheaval and even the moments that led to those right the moments of rejection and the moments of you’re not good enough. Um. Because they set the precedent, and really um gave me obstacles that I would have to overcome that have only made me stronger. So I’m currently based in Atlanta, like I said, like you said, I’m an author now, which is very exciting. I’m a poet, I’m a musician, I’m a filmmaker, um so many things. I just want to continue to use my being and my creativity to expand and express God and inspire in any way that I can. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I love that. I love that. I just love, ugh I can hear you speak all of the all like all day, like just the quality of your voice. Um. So, a lot of people go through things, and you know, when you’re younger. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: What made you what made you think that because what you went through right now was the time to translate that into, um a book? Like, why was that your your your choice in artistic modality? 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah, for sure. I feel like writing was never really a choice for me. I feel like it was something that it chose me. I didn’t chose it. You know, people [?] have a way with words and I say words have a way with me. This is something that is so vital and critical to me. It’s something that I feel like if I did not do, I don’t know if I would be here because it is one of the outlets that has sustained me and allowed me to express emotions that otherwise would have just bottled up and possibly, you know, caused me to behave in ways that aren’t in alignment with my highest being. So I’m so grateful for writing as an outlet. But just thinking about what I went through as a youth and leading up to me writing the book, some of the oldest parts of the book are from 2016. That’s when I really um started getting back into my writing journey. I wrote an open letter to the fashion industry called A Time for Change it was published by Harper’s Bazaar and that was the summer of 2016. Um. Alton Sterling, Philando Castile, it was just a very violent summer. And basically, the um some of that article was as creators of media, we have a duty and a job to represent those who are you know historically underrepresented, unrepresented, and who have historically been you know painted with this narrative of criminal or inherently less than um and in that you know moment of getting back into my writing journey, I also started writing poetry a little bit again. And just it really began my exploration of who I was outside of the limiting beliefs that I had you know been programmed with for so long. Also that same year, around that same time is when I decided to begin wearing my natural hair. And that was such a huge catalyst for me. And I know people outside of the Black community might not see that as a big deal, but– 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Huge.

 

Ebonee Davis: You know we know that this is such a big uh thing in our community, you know, it brings us together, it brings us apart. [laughter] It’s such a it’s such a big thing in our community. And when I began wearing my hair natural, it really made me um start to question, again, those limiting beliefs, you know, if I believe that I wasn’t good enough with my natural hair for 24 years at the time, then what other beliefs were keeping me from expressing myself in in the most authentic way in the most truthful way possible? And so I, like I said, began writing in 2016, I didn’t think necessarily that it would turn into a memoir. Um. I think that really happened in 2020 during the pandemic. So about four years after I started writing those initial bits, you know, again, I was back sitting with myself. I was off of the hamster wheel of capitalism and the spirit just wanted to come through. And that’s when I wrote the book. You know, that’s when I wrote the bones of the memoir. Um. And I later added kind of like the flesh and the muscles and the skin and all that stuff. But that’s when it really started to take on that structure and that’s when I really started to get back into poetry again as well because I just, you know, was able to sit with myself and have that time with myself and that was the natural expression that came out. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, so many questions to follow up what you just said. So bear with me. 

 

Ebonee Davis: [? apologize. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. Because I have like a lot of things going through my mind. So my first thing is um seeing you on the internet and I’m just a self-confessed, like spiritualist person. So–

 

Ebonee Davis: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I don’t believe in coincidences, I believe in synchronicities, I believe in you are experiencing things for a reason. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. And I remember when I heard um God, my ancestors, tell me that I needed to maybe spread out the way that I was thinking about my creativity. I was starting to explore music and I was–

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –starting to explore so many different things that weren’t just writing talk media. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. And I remember seeing you. Um. It was uh, I wish you’ll know what I’m talking about. It was almost like a multimedia film. Your poetry was– 

 

Ebonee Davis: Oh yes Karma.

 

Myles E. Johnson: Huh? Yes, Karma, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Um. I remember seeing that, and I remember that being such a big synchronicity for me because it was so in alignment with like almost like a vision that I was seeing for like for myself. And I think oftentimes we’ll see people um do things or synchronistically express things that you’ve been wanting to express or that you’re going to express as affirmation that like, no, this is a this is a whole collective consciousness download that we’re receiving. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. So that leads me to my my my first initial question to to which you just responded, was what cultivated the bravery to break out of fashion? Because you’re you were and are extremely successful inside of fa– like inside of fashion. So what was that motive like what was that like to to break free from that? And to expand from that, not even break free, but to expand from just that singular way of being seen. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah, I feel as though I’m still cultivating the bravery, um you know, especially because my livelihood depended on fashion for so long. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Hmm. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Um. And I think the shifts that really led to me expanding beyond fashion were by no means graceful. It wasn’t a graceful invitation to become more. It was an upheaval um of what had been. And it was like, you now have to be more. I remember in 2020, and that’s when Karma came out. So again, in that pandemic era, when I started kind of really dabbling again with my authentic expression. Um. That was also a very violent summer. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Um. You know, that was Breonna Taylor, that was George Floyd, it was just a very violent summer. Um. And I remember suddenly everyone in my industry seemed to be an activist um and everybody was posting their Black squares and everybody was like rooted in their Blackness all of a sudden. And this is, you know, four years after I had written that open letter and four years of me kind of like screaming into the void asking for change and not seeing any of the results from that from that effort. Um. And so it was very discouraging for me. It was very disheartening for me and I truly lost my sense of identity in that moment. Um. It was one of the darker times in my life. Because–

 

Myles E. Johnson: In the moment of 2020 or the are you talking about the moment of 2016 with the open letter? 

 

Ebonee Davis: In the moment of 2020. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Got it, got it. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Because it was like all of the sudden my identity as an individual was now um part of the like collective identity and I just felt like i didn’t have a purpose because if somebody could just step into the space call themselves an activist and you know get the accolades from these major fashion publications when i had been doing it authentically for years then what was the point? You know, um. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Mmm. Yeah. 

 

Ebonee Davis: And it just it just took me to a very low place because I was like, well, God, why do you have me here? What is the point? If I’m not making the impact, if I’m not being given the the microphone and the platforms to make the impact, then what is the point? But I realize now, in retrospect, that was such a huge catalyst and a huge upheaval of that identity, not because it wasn’t who I am, but it was a smaller portion of who I am. There was more that needed to be added on to that. That couldn’t be something that I cling to in order to experience the fullness of the blessings that God had for me. I had to evolve into something else, and so I had to be willing to go back into that cocoon phase and marinate and gestate for a little bit so that I could come back out once again as the butterfly and you know I don’t think that process ever ends I’m sure there will be more times where I’ll have to go back into the cocoon so that I can expand into more but definitely you know 2020, 2021, 2022 um were very trying years for me. And also, you know, I lost my brother, grief, grief. I lost my brother in 2023, in May 2023, to gun violence. And I think that truly expanded me into more. And I think it expanded me because it made me fearless in a sense. Um. I think losing somebody close to you puts a lot of F it in your system, like it put a lot of F it in my system. And I was just like, I cannot be afraid to step into the gifts that I know God has placed on my heart because tomorrow isn’t promised. You know, and so it really just lit a fire underneath me. And um, you know, I again, it’s still a work in progress because so much of my identity and my finances and stuff was tied to modeling, and so it’s taken a lot of trust and surrender to be able to let that go and and have faith in the fact that there was is abundance waiting for me on the other side. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So what you just said reminded me of, okay, a few things. So I just watched, I watched a long time ago the André Leon Tally um documentary, right? And um in a lot of ways he was um, I think a North Star for me and a lot of other people, just like when it comes to just seeing yourself in different um, different just in more diverse ways than what America produces your identities with. And then um maybe a couple of weeks ago, maybe not even a month ago, I saw the Bethann Hardison documentary um as well. And one thing, and I love both of these individuals, and I think that they’re both really important, and I definitely see um Blackness and Black creativity and consciousness as a galaxy. So like I think–

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Everybody is embodying their own planet and their own world, so I try not to like judge Yeah, I try not to judge too much, but what I did think was, oh wow, fashion is too small for these people. Um. And I think I saw the portrayal the betrayal in André Leon Talley, if I’m being honest, once he passed away and how there was so little people who um honored him, even when we think about what’s happening, what did not happen at the Met Gala, even though Anna Wintour does it and you just would think certain things would have happened to respect to Bethann Hardison really having her whole political life be about creating um racial equity inside of of inside of an industry that just seems to not be interested oftentimes, and you  know, which, which, which means like, where what where’s your life force going into? And again, this is not necessarily personal critiques on them. But it’s always me as a you know, 30-something-year-old, 32-year-old Black person. It’s almost like a cautionary tale, like what, why am I doing this? What’s going on? So I’m curious, like because some of y’all will be able to see, but a lot of you all will be hearing it, Um. Ebonee looks absolutely stunning. So she doesn’t just look stunning because of the perfect skin, the perfect face, but also she’s adorned in this like beautiful, um knit like, knitted outfit and gold hoops, and she just looks beautiful. And there’s still that love of beauty and glamor and fashion that I can see. So I’m just curious about like, what is your relationship to fashion now? What is your–

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: If anything. 

 

Ebonee Davis: That is such a beautiful point. And that is something I’m going to take to my altar [laughter] take to my alter and sit with. Um, I think fashion is very much a part of my DNA. I was raised by my Libra father. And so–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Like, you know, getting dressed, I had to, you know, pull out my outfits before school the night before. Iron them, you know, make sure like, stepping out looking right was always very, very important to him, and I think he instilled that in me. Um. And so fashion is very much a part of who I am, but I just, I just, what I want to reflect on is this idea that the life force is solely being directed to an industry that is inherently built on exclusivity, um you know, rejection and uh singular notions of what is beautiful. So it. Is there a possibility that we can change what is on a fundamental level, the building block of the system? And I’m not sure if that’s true. And I think why that’s so profound to me is because I think also, you know, that’s why I was being called up to expand and be something bigger. I don’t think my life force–

 

Myles E. Johnson: I agree. 

 

Ebonee Davis: –and the entirety of my being is meant to be used to to just try to influence the fashion industry. I’m trying to have a global impact. I’m trying to be in politics. I’m trying to be in the infrastructure of fabric and consciousness and how we see ourselves, you know what I mean? Not just a global impact, but a universal impact, like something so much bigger than we can understand in this lifetime and this experience as human beings. I want, I want what I leave to transcend time and space, you know, my book and my legacy and all of that and you know, right now, just to expand on that, I’m, I’m working with, um I have my nonprofit organization, Daughter, which does birthright trips back to West Africa for immersive experiences. But you know, spirit has really been giving it to me that Daughter is a container um for global healing. It’s not just the birthright experiences. It’s like this, it’s this thing with its own consciousness that is really going to influence the way that we heal as Black people um and so that’s the impact you know what I mean? It’s it’s so much bigger than fashion and I’ve never heard it put in that way and I’m so glad you were able to provide that context of Bethann and André Leon Talley, and we love them and we love what they’ve done. You know Bethann has been a personal mentor to me, but when I think about that and I think about who I am and all I’ve had to go through to cultivate my light, I’m like, wow, yeah, the impact is so much bigger. That’s just one vehicle, but the impact–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Ebonee Davis: -is so much bigger. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, yeah, I’m always, um it’s just a weariness. I think a healthy weariness. I’m a Libra rising. So I love that you said that your father was a Libra because of that that Venusian energy is definitely I was raised by two Taurus, which is also ruled by Libra. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Oh yeah. You got it.

 

Myles E. Johnson: Or I mean ruled by Venus. So I just got it. But I’m also, um you know, I just have a lot of Scorpio placements, Pisces, Aquarian placements. So I’m always investigating and like challenging things um in my head. And I’m like, wait, are we? What are we doing to not just recreate these um? You know, there’s always, I will always say there’s always like something that wants to assimilate inside of me, meaning something that wants to be inside of America, but grow it. And there’s also that kind of like Haitian ancestor inside of me that’s like, oh, well we could burn this down. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah yeah yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And I think there’s always a um there’s always like a continuous balance finding. So I was wondering where you are when it came to that? What inspired, because you kind of ran into my next set of questions, which were about Daughter, but um what inspired your trip to Ghana? How did that start? How did those trips start? Um. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah, yeah. So again, like the going natural kind of led to this massive upheaval and search for identity in 2016. And so in 2018, I finally made it to West Africa, I made it to Accra, Ghana, and I just felt this sense of identity and just assuredness within myself that I hadn’t necessarily experienced um during my time in America. And I thought it would be such an essential thing to bring as many descendants of the diaspora home as possible so that they can also feel that sense of assuredness and just understand our identity outside of the context of America. Because when you are looking at yourself through the lens of the American media, it’s easy to belittle yourself because we are–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Absolutely. 

 

Ebonee Davis: –constantly belittled. We are constantly caricaturized um and given very singular lanes for–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Absolutely. 

 

Ebonee Davis: How we can express and be and and live in this life and so seeing other ways of life and seeing Black people you know maneuver in those ways I think is just so essential for the expansion of our our consciousness and you know so we’re doing the birthright trips but again just to like expand on the idea of Daughter as like a container for Wellness. Um, you know, I think when I first initiated it and it was a reflection of that sort of activist identity, it was very much just like the birthright trips and, you know, all that stuff. But now Daughter is expanding into wellness events. It’s expanding into yoga and meditation and the breath work, you know, it’s expanding into um nutrition, just all of these different um elements of wellness that I feel like the Black community hasn’t had access to because I realize you know the need for healing, not just in our identity, but in our bodies. You know all of this trauma of 400 years of oppression is alive within our bodies. And I only know this because I’ve had to do the tedious work and I’m still doing the tedious work of removing that out of my body. You know um plant medicine for me has brought to the forefront a lot of self-realization so that’s you know another element is just working with plants just working with the things that our ancestors work with in order to heal and like understand where we belong in this ecosystem and understand our connection to the earth because we are so disconnected from the earth we’re so disconnected from ourselves and we have to get plugged in again in order to really feel that deep cellular healing. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I I I totally agree on that. So staying on the shallow a little bit deeper, now tell us about the diary, the Daughter diary. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah yes. So I have the Daughter diary. It originally came out in 2022. And again, it’s part of this ecosystem of wellness that I’m creating. It has my quotes in it and you know, dates and all that stuff. And basically, I wanted to use the quotes to inspire thought and just kind of like prompt people to go on their healing journey. And it was also created, it was created in partnership with Aya Paper Co, which is a Black woman owned paper company. And it was also created in promotion of the Daughter film, the Daughter documentary that I’m currently um–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Whoa! 

 

Ebonee Davis: –working on. So if you like flip to the back of the journal, you’ll see um there’s like a little bit of a blurb. Um. The documentary has been following me for like the past four years since the pandemic really. Um. We’ve gone to Ghana, we’ve gone to Atlanta, we’ve gone to Paris. Um, I can’t. I’m not sure when it’s coming out. We’re in post-production now. And, you know, I think it’s interesting because the journey keeps expanding. You know. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Ebonee Davis: It’s like it’s really hard to like tell a story or wrap up the story when it’s like, I truly feel like I’m just at the bottom of the mountain. Like I’m nowhere near the top of the mountain or or nowhere close to fulfilling the full potential that I know is all my life. So. But yeah, um it’s currently at Nordstrom for Black History Month, I guess today’s the last day of Black History Month, but it’s okay. [?] I’m gonna make sure that we can, you can still get it, but yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, and I just, again, I just love seeing you, really see yourself as big as what you are, you know, and not an not just a model or just somebody who’s being a fashion advocate, but now you are an author. This book is beautifully written. Um. The the like your way with um prose and like injecting the poetry inside of the prose is really, to me, like masterful. Um. I think uh just how you present yourself and the creativity you present yourself and the diversity you present yourself with. So it makes sense that, like, oh, wow, we’re going to get a documentary. We’re gonna get even more books. We’re gonna get materials and and and things like dolls. I’m putting it out there, and journals and and and songs and stuff like that. So I just I’m just really grateful to be able to have sit sat down um to talk with you because I’ve been so curious about you for so long and just where your mind’s at because I’ve been just on periphery seeing the evolution. Um. And I’m just I’m just beyond grateful that you took this time out with me, Ebonee. 

 

Ebonee Davis: I’m so glad too, you’ve given me so much to think about and a couple action items that I got to– 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay, listen. 

 

Ebonee Davis: [?]. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Listen. You know, I do, I do my little card readings. We can talk on the phone and anytime I’m always– 

 

Ebonee Davis: Okay. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That’s really my, that’s really my thing with everybody who I’m, who I’m like friends with and I’m in circles with. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m always kind of, I’m an Aquarius moon and Pisces Sun so I’m very like. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m usually the clearest channel, I’ll be like, [?] I’m like I can see it, you know, because sometimes when you’re in it, like you said, you see what’s in front of you. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And, um you know, hopefully and I believe one of my gifts are being able to see somebody at 99 and not where they are at 29 or 39, you know, just being able to see somebody. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Like what the legacy is and keep that, keep that even if they doing some 29, 21 year old dumb stuff. [laugh]

 

Ebonee Davis: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: But again, thank you so much, so much, so much to Ebonee. 

 

Ebonee Davis: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Tell your friends to check it out and make sure you rate it wherever you get your podcast, whether it’s Apple Podcasts or somewhere else. And we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by A.J. Moultrié and mixed by Evan Sutton. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors, Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]

 

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