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This week, Louis is joined by Pod Save America host Jon Lovett to discuss the greats of reality TV, Diane Keaton’s inimitable career, Jennifer Lopez’s new movie The Kiss of the Spider Woman, Bad Bunny’s halftime show announcement, and D’Angelo’s passing. Kyle MacLachlan also joins to chat about his new show The Lowdown, working with David Lynch, and his best memories with Diane Keaton.

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TRANSCRIPT

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel And we’re back with an all new episode of Keep It La Dida La De Da. I am deeply in mourning. I can barely believe I’m here sitting here talking to you, looking straightforward, pretending to be dignified. I cannot believe the great Diane Keaton has passed, but we will get into that today. We have a brand new podcaster who’s very nervous about the medium with us today.

 

Jon Lovett Do I talk into this?

 

Louis Virtel Yes, that’s right.

 

Jon Lovett Am I too close?

 

Louis Virtel Oh my god, you look like a pro. Yeah, yeah. It’s the great Jon Lovett, who I was actually the original kind of person who made Keep It happen in general.

 

Jon Lovett Yes, but I remember we keep it started. Remember very early it was when our offices were above the Largo and rats were chewing through the wires. But you and Ira were coming in and we were testing and trying to figure out how to do our version of a pop culture show of friends sitting around a table in the same way Pod Save America was for politics. And I cannot believe that that was eight years ago.

 

Louis Virtel I know. And one of these days we’re gonna get it right.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, look, it’s always yes, that’s right. It’s like a New Year’s resolution. It even though you fail, it works because you tried.

 

Louis Virtel Right. And people love to see people getting right back on that horse.

 

Jon Lovett That’s exactly right. And that’s what we think keep it is. Yeah. It’s a person getting on a horse over and thrown and then back on.

 

Louis Virtel Right. It’s like that movie The Rider. God knows what’s happened to me in my head over the years, since we started this podcast. But you’re right, eight years. Crazy. Welcome to keep it. It’s been way too long.

 

Jon Lovett It’s been so long. Thanks for having me. It’s great to be back in the keep it chair, especially when we have there’s a lot that’s happening. Yeah. But it’s good to see him. How is your sanity level? It is very hard to keep two ideas in your mind at once, which is like we are in a state of emergency, and you have to live your life and not allow that emergency to take over everything. And so when you’re focused on politics, it can feel exhausting and enervating and dispiriting. But then when you are, you know, having the regular quotidian joys of life, you feel like, wait a second. Is am I doing the right thing by ignoring all this for a beat? Or am I not taking it seriously enough? And that’s how it feels. But you have to like politics is such a morass. It is so it’s so chaotic, it is genuinely unprecedented. It is easy to feel overwhelmed by it, and you have to try to remember that we are in a long-term struggle. And that requires being able to stay in it, which does mean you have to be able to put it aside for a while and watch Real Housewives and enjoy like a time where you’re not thinking about the fact that that you know, an authoritarian menace is taking over our government with the help of corporations and sort of feckless weasel Republicans. Which reminds me.

 

Louis Virtel Me. I almost thought that you doing Love It or Leave It was just like a fun side thing you do, but it also feels like it keeps you stable. Like it’s like it’s a way to talk about politics in a way you basically don’t get to otherwise.

 

Jon Lovett Yes, Love It or Leave It is also been doing this for eight years and it has changed dramatically. And I feel really proud. I think we should both, by the way, take a moment to feel proud of the fact that like we have been doing shows for a long time, but really always trying to find ways to make it feel like new and interesting to us, like to try to find ways to like be authentically connected to what we’re doing because the audience will be able to tell. And for me, love it or leave it is that. And like it is two things. One, we get to do live a live show, which is extremely useful to me. I love seeing the live audience. I love understanding where their head’s at. Yes, it is a pro mostly progressive audience, but people bring their their apolitical friends. And also, by the way, we’ll have like a Republican like family member will join and you get to talk to them. I get a like a feedback from the audience, but also like every week on Thursdays, I basically sit all day and write with these incredible comedy writers with Sarah Lazarus and Halle Keefer, our head writer, and we sit around the table and think through how to be funny and also like how to be funny in a way that reflects the seriousness of the moment we’re in. And that’s like a really interesting challenge. And I like relish it. And then I get to go on stage and tell these great jokes we’ve worked on. And that to me is like one of the most like rewarding parts of my week, if not the most.

 

Louis Virtel And you haven’t even brought up the most important part, which is you get to reunite me with Jane Fonda on your couch and she sees me, sits down, w I reacquaint myself with her quickly. And then as you start to ask questions, she just grabs my hand. I I was like, What is taking over my life right now? Is this me, Louis?

 

Jon Lovett Jane Fonda, she’s a movie star. Charisma to me is a such a like we just don’t understand it, like that, that kind of captivating star, like we call it star quality. We talk around it in every way we can because you can’t actually describe the thing itself. But when Jane Fonda looks you in the eyes, the world disappears. She is so there’s an intensity that doesn’t feel like intensity. It doesn’t feel like you you are you are keyed in, but it is so it feels so effortless on her part. You’re just in the presence of someone that has something magical to them. She’s also effortlessly attentive.

 

Louis Virtel You know what I mean? Like she’s always like willing to listen and then like and then she retains that. She’s just such a good conversationalist. And then for some reason is also hilarious. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the work of Henry Fonda, not one of my favorite comedians.

 

Jon Lovett No, but no, she is very funny. She’s very wry. And you just see someone that you see why they’re so fucking good and have been so good for so long. Because she knows that one of the like the arrows in her quiver is that because she is older, people expect her to miss something, not grab something, let something go by. And then she just grabs it. And you realize that she was like kind of fully in it with you because and like that’s just someone who has like allowed themselves to be themselves as she’s gotten like like you know, she started as like an ingenue. You know, she starts as this beautiful, kind of like stunning, beautiful sex object in these movies. And and she remains this force in part because she like kind of I think is so curious and interested in the world in ways large and small. And anyway, it was so awesome to see you with her because you seem to at times know her career better than she did. Oh, well, I’m imagine if I

 

Louis Virtel Oh well, I’m imagine if I didn’t. I also think when like when you interview an actor on a show like this, like it’s no guarantee they’ll have a great memory for their own career. Cause by the way, why would you rewatch something you were in? You know what I mean? It’s I I’m forever changed by hearing Cher say I am not a Cher fan. You know, it’s like, why would she listen to her old pop albums? Like, but like pop music is kind of for, you know, gay men. You know what I mean? Like it’s weird to be kind of a fan of your own work, but she can take you back to any chapter in her career. And by the way, there are a million chapters. So she remains deeply impressive in that way, but also impressive. Tell me what the hell this Bravo America thing is.

 

Jon Lovett So I’m lover to leave it fee. We have a new series called Bravo America. I am interviewing icons of reality TV. I’m doing it because for me, real reality TV has been an outlet and an escape, which I’m sure it has been for a lot of you. I also, like Jon Favreau and I on Pod Save America interviewed Congresswoman Sarah McBride, who’s also the first trans member of Congress. And she made a point about what it is like to be in Congress right now with a mix of people, some of whom are there for the deeply correct reasons, others who view it as an opportunity for fame and attention, and who have figured out that you can use a congressional hearing the same way a real housewife would use a dinner party to go after your enemies, draw attention. And a lot of Republicans in Congress and understand that it is better to be hated and interesting than good and boring. And that flows from a reality TV culture and the way it has changed how we consume not just pop culture, but the news. And so I am sitting down with people like Dorinda Medley, Terry Dubrow, Parverty Shallow from Survivor. One of the great

 

Louis Virtel One of the great interviewees. I love Parvis.

 

Jon Lovett She’s fantastic. I talked to Olivia Plath, that should be out right now, about what it was like having her departure from Christian fundamentalism from the time she was a very young woman aired on television as she kind of discovered the wider world and began to question how she was raised. And all of it to me is about trying to understand from inside of reality shows what these people have come to understand about not just reality TV, but about reality TV’s influence on the culture from inside of it. And we’ve walked out of some of these conversations with like our jaws on the floor because these people, first of all, you understand why some people pop on reality TV and others, like you know, from the from from the days of early Kim Kardashian, it was like they’re famous for doing nothing. They’re not famous for anything, they’re famous for being famous. And of course, there’s some truth to that. But you see why some people break through and others don’t. And in part is because they have a version of that, they have whatever the reality TV version of that Jane Fonda charisma is, they have the reality TV version. And you see why people living their lives and having it be on screen made them the right people for that kind of a show.

 

Louis Virtel I also feel like the best reality show people, they have an ability to perform like nobody’s watching and then look to the camera and talk to the viewer at home like we’re on a team together. You know who I think is my my new candidate for greatest reality originator who now just belongs to the culture? Jinx Monsoon. Oh, such a fabulous actress. And also like Cola Scola, this is somebody who chose a specific lane for themselves and stayed in it. Did not ever feel like they were picking roles or opportunities to placate other people. Everything was to like get their jollies in the way they want. And she is just unbelievable. And I am miserable that I have not seen her in O’Marry.

 

Jon Lovett Oh, I’ve so I saw both Cole and Jinx in O’Mary. Queen. Look at you. I know, I know. I was like, and it was fun. I actually was reluctant. I love Jinx. I think Jinx is an extraordinary talent. And if you that season of Drag Race is actually, I think important in the history of reality TV because two things happened. One, you watched a bunch of people realize that they are on a show with a fucking star. Yes. And this sense of like kind of despair in competing against this star where they they can’t seem to gain purchase. They’re like, they’re scratching, trying to stay up on, stay up on the on the side of the cliff and they just can’t. And you watch them kind of struggle with that. But also, every reality shoot show has this moment where the people within the people who are on the show have seen the show. And Drag Race, when it began, it was so it was not really watched. It was such a sort of experiment. It was so cheap. They were trying to win the show. They were trying to win the small pool of money and impress RuPaul because they were drag queens from the drag circuit, trying to prove that they were good at it.

 

Louis Virtel And by the way, drag was not especially cool at that time.

 

Jon Lovett No, no. And then over the years you watch people realize that this show itself is a platform. And that season they were so hard on Jinx, who has now gone on to be and was from that moment forward a star. And and from then on, people realize like I’m not opining against these girls in the show. I’m competing against these girls to tell my story to the camera and to be someone memorable and to prove my talents for whatever happens in this show. And that was a big change there. But with Jinx, that moment of her of her saying, like what water off a duck’s back in the that early season of Drag Race was this an amazing moment of just a like a fully fledged star, like kind of popping out of reality television.

 

Louis Virtel And also talking about like that quality, that ineffitable star quality, like the way in which she says that water off a duck’s back, that kind of like fake seductive, like kind of taunting thing in her voice, like so inimitable that she had that kind of X Factor quality right from the jump.

 

Jon Lovett Both for Cole and for Jinx. Like the culture kind of had to catch up with them. Oh, they pushed it. Right. But like Cole just being like, I know what I’m gonna do. I I’m gonna do a play about Mary Todd Lincoln. Like just it like

 

Louis Virtel Deeply ahistorical, just like full farcicle.

 

Jon Lovett And I love that like people came along and there was a huge audience for it. So it’s awesome. It’s all and they’re both phenomenal in it. Well anyway, I went yes, I like said like fuck it. Let’s go see let’s go see Jinx. And I was so glad I did because it’s it’s so clearly Cole’s part. But then you see Jinx do something like different with it and and make it her own and it’s awesome.

 

Louis Virtel I also regret that I didn’t see Jinx in Chicago. What’s wrong with me? I’m supposed to be the pop culture person here on Europe.

 

Jon Lovett That’s true. I’m a strong player. You love yes, you love a play. Yeah. You love a fucking play. That very fits your personality.

 

Louis Virtel That is

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, Steve. Someone stand up and walk, s people storming out, storming back in. Right. Someone coming in and the first thirty seconds of a play where they’re kind of fiddling with the the the house, getting it ready, getting it ready for the the knock on the door and the person from out of town. That’s their that’s your speed.

 

Louis Virtel If they could just all be a doll’s house one thousand times, I’d appreciate it. Yes. Oh my god. Okay. We have to get to this today’s episode, but which is extremely exciting for a couple of reasons. I disagree. Okay. There’s a lot to come. First of all, Jon joins me for today’s interview, which was such a blast with the inevitable Kyle McLaughlin. What a career, first of all. And he’s in the new show, The Lowdown, with Ethan Hawk, which by the way is immediately addictive. Please start watching the show immediately. And by the way, this man’s personality is equally as addictive. We love chatting with him.

 

Jon Lovett We love chatting with them. I love Kyle McLaughlin. It was so nice talking to him. You see to see a like a just such an actor who’s just been doing his thing for decades and like strange type of everyman, kind of naive, but like I don’t know. There’s like a and occasionally something.

 

Louis Virtel And occasionally something under the surface that’s a little demonic or yeah.

 

Jon Lovett Like any like under any wasp, I would say. Precisely.

 

Louis Virtel Furthermore, this episode, we also talked to Kyle about the late Diane Keaton who passed away over the weekend. Jon and I will get into her career, her legacy, et cetera. And she also directed Kyle in an episode of Twin Peaks. So we talk about that. Look forward to that. And also, Kiss of the Spider Woman was not viewed by many people this weekend.

 

Jon Lovett I what a surprise.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, it is a a Tony winning musical, a very appreciated musical based of course on a really respected movie that’s what an Oscar for William Hurt at the time, but now we have J Lo in the new version, and we’ll describe it to you since you did not see it.

 

Jon Lovett And and just so people understand, this is a movie musical based on a musical, based on a movie, based on a novel. That’s how the world works now. Mm-hmm. Just be in that space.

 

Louis Virtel I’m in it. Okay, great. We’re here. We’ll be right back with more Keep It. Keep it is brought to you by Tavala. As you know, I love having meals sent to me. Even better, I love having the machine in which you cook them also sent to me because it’s like the company saying, Oh, you’re gonna make it right. This podcast is sponsored by Tavala. Tavala is a smart countertop oven and meal subscription that work together to make cooking effortless. Tavala makes it so easy. You just scan the meals QR code, pop it in the oven, and it cooks everything perfectly. Steams, bakes, broils, automatically. No guesswork needed. You can save up to $300 on the Tavala Smart Oven when you order meals six or more times by heading to Tavala.com slash keepit using my code keep it for a limited time. The last time I did this, a couple days ago, and I emerged a better person because the meal was exactly right and I prepared it myself. If you know me, Louis, you know that that is miraculous. Tavala’s meals are chef crafted and taste just like homemade meals, just without all of the headache. Plus, all of Tavala’s meals are made with real fresh ingredients. That’s exactly why I like Tavala. The fresh ingredients are given to me. It’s not just a pile of stuff. One by one, I put it together, it looks great, it tastes great, and they give me the machine in which to make it. If you’re like most people, Tavala is great because you can eat better without putting in a ton of effort. There are high protein options, calorie smart options, gluten free options, comfort food, whatever you’re into. And by the way, I indulge in all four. For a limited time, because you are a keep it listener, you can save up to $300 on the Tavala Smart Oven when you order meals six or more times by heading to tavala.com slash keep it and use our code KEPIT. That’s up to $300 off when you head to tavala.com slash keep it and use promo code Keep It. One last time, that’s T O V A L A dot com. And make sure you use our promo code KEPIT for up to $300 off the Tavala Smart Oven. Remember with

 

Speaker 3 Tavala dinner is taken care of.

 

Louis Virtel Hollywood legend and ball of fire. Diane Keaton passed away this past Saturday at the age of seventy nine. It’s a huge loss for Hollywood. So we’re gonna talk through our top Diane Keaton films. Love it. What’s the first Diane Keaton classic that stands out to you?

 

Jon Lovett Gotta be Baby Boom. Interesting. It’s gotta be Baby Boom because I remember Baby Boom as a kid, and we just love that movie. And it it and it entirely rests on Diane Keaton’s shoulders. It’s just a movie that has held our

 

Louis Virtel Which are padded as hell and padded as hell.

 

Jon Lovett And the Godfather and Godfather part two. What I was thinking about with Godfather is why I think people were so kind of I think stunned to hear that Diane Keaton had passed away and that she was seventy nine, in part because she does feel ageless, in part because it felt like she was old when she was young.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, if you think about like the father of the bride movies, she felt like an older mom even then, which is now like thirty five years old.

 

Jon Lovett And even in like Annie Hall, she has a there’s always been a kind of wisdom to her, like in her eyes, and that like when the kind of befuddled fumfering and bouncing around and not having the right words and settles, there’s that kind of moment where you’re you see how like she’s every character she’s ever played has been smart and aware because that was something that was in every moment of her performance that forever man she was standing across in any movie, she may be silly and she may be goofy and she may be funny, but she’s not to be trifled with.

 

Louis Virtel I think one of my favorite things about reading all these remembrances, and f for example, Nancy Myers, her frequent collaborator, gave an amazing one on Instagram. Please read that. Is that every time people call her, I don’t know, bubbly or effervescent or whatever, I can think of another role that actually contradicts that. She’s slyly, extremely versatile. And you can underestimate that because she’s so relatable on screen. I just brought up the father of the bride movies. There’s a lot in that movie that is very broad. Like Martin Short in that movie is doing a laugh in character. You know, it’s like extremely broad. And yet it’s Diane sort of like dealing with the character and the look in her eye and the inquisitiveness and the and the neurosis that makes it feel like a real situation that feels like you’re watching something that you can just watch again and again and again.

 

Jon Lovett The scene in Father of the Bride, when Steve Martin has been arrested for hot dog buns steal stealing, is a broad fantastic. When she visits him in the holding cell he is in, and this rye arch, small smile that she has, where she is basically addressing him and lecturing him about the way he needs to show up, but she does it in this way that is so you are so 100% on her side. The whole movie revolves around that scene in a way because it like the whole everything is so silly and and he’s making all of these mistakes. And then you have one scene in the movie that says, this is how you were supposed to be, and this is how you should be from this point forward. And it’s the only time really that it is said, and the whole, the whole I do not think the movie works without Diane Keaton in that scene. In Godfather Part 2, she is standing across from Al Pacino in one of the most memorable moments. And she screams at him that she had an abortion and he thinks it was a miscarriage. And it is one of the greatest scenes and moments in film. And she is able to stand across from one of the biggest and most intense actors in the history of like American movies, and it is her scene. And she is in charge of that scene, and she doesn’t allow Al Pacino, who I think was obviously amazing. She doesn’t allow Al Pacino, even though he is at his most intense, own or control the moment at all. And it is a moment where he is learning something, and she is so powerful in that scene, and she does it in a feminine way. I like, I don’t know how else to say it. Like she is an extremely like feminine actor. And what I was thinking about, and I was gonna tell this was what I wanted to talk to you about, which is you know, when we talk to Kyle McLaughlin later, he talks about James Dean, he talks about Marlon Brando, Marlon Brando specifically, is small. That that that his greatest Marlon Brando is a performer’s greatest moments are small. And I think it was Brando who gave an interview once about American movies. And he said that if you do nothing, we imbue it with great power, but it’s much harder to do something. And Al Pacino, famously big, harder to be good and big. Diane Keaton, in many ways, was like Al Pacino, in that she was able to be. And and at times broad and bring huge moments, whether it’s in Annie Hall or Father the Bride or really any of her great moments, some something’s gotta give. She has a famous scene in front of a typewriter where she’s weeping and laughing and typing. She can be huge, but real and like excellent. And like very, very few people in comedy and drama are able to do that. And I was like, is Diane Keaton in a lot of ways like a feminine version of Al Pacino, but doesn’t get the credit for it? That was my that was my take.

 

Louis Virtel She really is the Yale of exasperation. She and Sally Field, both if they’re on screen, like they can take a huge moment where they’re breaking down or like welling up and then turn it into an extremely relatable and not cartoonish moment. But it’s funny that you bring up Marlon Brando and those sort of classic actors of the 50s. I really don’t feel like an acting revolution happened for actresses in the same way it did for men at that time, the way we want we we wanted the angry young men, like the Montgomery Cliffs and the James Deans at the time. There were women who gave I’ll I’ll say dialed in realistic seeming performances, method performances at the time. But I don’t think it was until the 70s, and you had people like Jane Fonda, Sally Field, Sissy Spacek, Diane Carroll, people like that, that we really got into the intricacies of one womanhood, but just got female characters who had angst going on, who could be comedic, who could bring multiple dimensions at one time. They weren’t just responding to men. They they were writing their own stories seemingly while they were on screen. And Diane Keaton in several of these movies, and by the way, I cannot believe she was not nominated for an Oscar for The Godfather Part Two. No shade to Talia Shire, who was. But in movies like Andy Hall, in looking for Mr. Goodbar, which is a somewhat forgotten movie where we basically just watch this woman who lives a highly sexualized but like full life on screen. Diane Keaton just effortlessly inhabits all the sectors of this character’s life. And it almost doesn’t need a story because Diane is a story on the silver screen.

 

Jon Lovett It’s funny as you say that, like what I’m I’m trying to think about what makes Diane Keaton special and why I think at times like she wasn’t seen as one of the great actors, right? She wasn’t. I like I I think she is. But it’s, you know, it takes someone passing sometimes to realize, like, oh wow, like we have not collectively done appreciated what Diane Keaton could do. And part of it is I think some of her greatest roles and greatest moments are moments where she is observing Riley, the ambitions and like petty strivings of men with a look, like kind of with a and and she does that in Godfather. She does that in all of her romantic comedies. I think that’s partly why she was so great and such a great muse for people like Nancy Meyer. Nancy Myers is like she is observing men, thinking they’re serious when they are being silly and seeing it completely in a way that is like leveling. And she does that over and over and over again. And I can see why that like that performance that is not necessarily for men who are watching it, or like it is not is not so clearly made laid out for them, but is very like kind of much more about like her perspective as a woman, unchanged by the men she’s acting with. I think like is part of why it didn’t feel as I don’t know, like appreciated.

 

Louis Virtel I also think her sense of style tells a complete story of Diane Keaton, which is, first of all, it’s really amazing how often she got to bring her sartorial Diane Keaton-ness into movies. Like even in Reds, which is a movie about turn of the century Russia, she is still kind of dressed like Diane Keaton in it. She’s still in her kind of suffragette garb, which by the way is exactly what she wore to collect her Academy Award, delivered to her by first ever best actress winner, Janet Gaynor, who was still around at the 50th annual Academy Awards. But like her like artfully bedraggled neutrals, it’s like there was like a casual self-possession about the way she dressed, even if it was totally off kilter. She did not question about herself, like, well, this is different, so it’s gonna seem odd. She just accepted that and brought it. But then furthermore, it’s it’s like look with the jackets and the belts. It was like there was a workmanlike quality to her too. Like she said, I look good, but I’m also here to be the everyman. And I think it’s that combination of chic and also one of the people that she brought all the time.

 

Jon Lovett Right. Well, it just again it was like not for anyone. It wasn’t like for the men watching.

 

Louis Virtel Watching it was for her. But she was also the rare total kook who was seemingly entrancing men constantly.

 

Jon Lovett Yes. Yeah. Well so so she wins for Annie Hall. Yes. Which what were her other nominations? She was nominated for Reds. She was nominated for Marvin’s Room and Something’s Gotta Give. Something’s gotta give. Yeah, you know, only Diane Keene could be nominated for Something’s Gotta Give. A movie, another movie that like could own that survives because she’s carrying it. Well, I mean, and obviously Jack Nicholson is great in it, but like Jack Nicholson was in his antagonist era. Sort of the same role he plays in terms of endearment, where like he’s great in it and magical in it, but it is a fun presence, but not necessary. Do you know what I mean?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Well, he just did cantankerous quite a bit. Yes, he did a lot of cantankerous, yeah, for sure. And also, I don’t want to underestimate a lot of Diane Keaton’s comic abilities too. I just rewatched Love and Death, an earlier Woody Allen movie from seven. We forget that there was an era in Woody Allen’s career which his movies seemed like Mel Brooks movies or seemed like Monty Python, like they blended in with the times. It’s a parody of Russian dramas, like Crime and Punishment, et cetera. And in that movie, she is, you know, the the romantic leader, whatever, but also she has to recite a ton of dialog, ki again, satirizing this like genre of literature. And it’s not lightly daffy the way you expect from Diane Keaton. She is committed to it and dialed into the vision and 100% the actress who should be playing that. She didn’t actually do many roles like that afterwards. So it’s it’s worth a review if you haven’t seen it.

 

Jon Lovett Yes. So she did work with Willie Allen and eight times, yes. And she is a marvel in Annie Hall and and is an incredible performance. And look, I I I was engaged to Ronan Farrow, and I kept my Woody Allen antipathy in the breakup. And so it is to me like I think part of the story that it was very hard for her to see Woody Allen both as someone she obviously admired, respected, viewed as critical to her success and and helped her be the best actor she could be, while at the same time having to face the allegations against him. And she did what I think a lot of people do when facing that very difficult situation, which because it is so difficult and uncomfortable to face that a person can be two things, choose to believe the one. And she was someone who was like very like I defended him, described him as a friend, believed him, and I am sure it was very difficult. But her experience of of working with someone like Woody Allen, that can have been very important and good without it requiring you to not at least be open to the possibility that that is not the entirety of a person and that you might not know.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I I’m this is just my experience being alive. W if if if certain accusations are made about somebody, no matter how well I know them, I’m willing to believe anybody. I don’t think because I’m friends with somebody, it means it it can’t have happened. And when Diane Keaton uses the language, I believe my friend, it makes me disappointed. Cause it’s like she’s naming a quality that would maybe exonerate him. Well, he’s friends with me, so this couldn’t have happened. So I find that especially uncomfortable.

 

Jon Lovett Yes. And there, and there were others that were like that as well. Like Alec Baldwin’s, I thought was particularly kind of gruesome in how he handled it. And part of it with like someone like Alec Baldwin, it was like Alec Baldwin is so cocky and arrogant in his ability, his view of himself that he couldn’t conceive of the possibility that he might not understand or know the truth or be able to trust someone to tell them the truth. But as someone that was very close with Ronan and of course Mia and Dylan, it was very hard to know what had happened and how much information there was about what happened, and then to see people that you love and admire like Diane Keaton refuse to engage with it because it would require them to change how they see someone that they admired and respected. And I’m not saying anybody was in an easy position, but for me, unfortunately, when I saw that Diane Keaton had passed, I of course thought about how much I loved her as an actor. But what came to mind for me was the fact that at a moment when Dylan was telling her story and when I was close to this family and well aware of of what had happened, knowing what had happened inside of this family, knowing that Woody Allen was a monster, and then seeing Diane Keaton go above and beyond to stand up for him because she cared about his work and their friendship. And so choosing that over engaging with the actual facts, even if that required discomfort, that to me is in my mind central to how I think of her. And that is sad, but I could not think of Diane Keaton without thinking about what she did to defend Woody Allen.

 

Louis Virtel Those were her choices. I I think that’s rational. And also I have to say, he gave a statement about Diane Keaton, and he did call her funny and did say, I never read critics. I only cared what Diane Keaton had to say, which I assume is nice. Didn’t like the rest of what he said, which I felt like was congratulating her for being his girlfriend or be or be being lovely and radiant and sort of actually underestimating the level of respect she was accorded as an actor. So he toasted Diane Keaton’s comic abilities, but he also said we had a few great personal years together and finally we both moved on. And why we parted, only God and Freud might be able to figure out. Disgusting. She went on to date a number of exciting men, all of them more fascinating than I was. You see? Gross.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah. This is like Woody Allen’s fucking gross. He I I’m glad you like he’s he’s fucking gross. Like in the public record, he’s gross without even having to accept the allegations, which knowing Dylan, knowing Ronan, knowing Mia, knowing what happened, like you’d have to deny so much evidence to believe Woody Allen. But I guess the way you do that is by not knowing it, not allowing y yourself to see it.

 

Louis Virtel And just choosing the word friend and sticking with that and pretending that’s like a point of view that sort of smooths over everything or smooths over having to investigate further.

 

Jon Lovett And by the way, there have been people that have handled this and said, like, look, this is the person I worked with. I love my chance to work with it. I can’t speak to what happened here. I don’t know what happened here. And I, you know, and like there are people that have been able to handle what is a difficult situation without, I don’t know, ultimately when you say I believe my friend, you’re saying you don’t believe a person who is telling a story they have told unchanged since they were the time they were a little girl. And that may be hard and uncomfortable, but that’s what life is. Life is either we have in politics, we have people who choose to ignore anything uncomfortable, to make politics feel easy. And then we have people who are going to face that life is hard and complicated and requires you to feel things you may not want to feel.

 

Louis Virtel That’s our Diane Keaton conversation. If you have anything to add in the comments, please. I just want to add one more thing. I can’t think of any other movie. Annie Hall was originally supposed to be this large movie with many more storylines going on it. And one part of the storyline was a murder mystery that then turned into the movie Manhattan Murder Mystery later on that Diane Keaton was also in. So bizarre. I’ve never heard of a m like a movie carved out of a movie in order to which be then became a best picture.

 

Jon Lovett There is another example, which is Aaron Sorkin went into a hotel room at I believe the four seasons on Doheny, did Coke every night until he had written

 

Louis Virtel That does not seem like him. Go ahead.

 

Jon Lovett Or whatever he was doing until he had written a script that was several hundred pages. And from that script, Rob Reiner takes about a hundred and says, This this romance, this is our movie. This is American president. And he’s like, I’m, you know, I’m gonna use a whole buffalo. He turns the rest of it into the West Wing. So he like he had a whole office drama. That becomes the West Wing, but the romantic comedy gets pulled out and becomes the American president. Now I have to think about Annette Benning in that movie because she was scintillating. So great. So great. No need to go to DuPont Circle to get to the White House from where she was going, but otherwise, otherwise a great film. The other, yeah. The other thing too is you think, like, oh, at the end of that movie, Michael Douglas goes into the briefing room and gives one speech. That that’s a classic of the of the the political dramas on in movies, which is a politician finally gives the speech and then everything is solved. But in real life, it’s like two days of coverage about his speech, and you know, his poll number is still in the fucking toilet and he just abandoned his key initiative. Yeah, you can’t just win. Yeah. Like at the end of Clean Present Danger, Harrison Ford says, they’re they’re they’re they’re launching an illegal war to do to to kill drug cartels because of a personal connection. It’s like, I don’t know. Trump’s doing that on television every day right now. Sometimes the speeches don’t work. You a fan of Wag the Dog?

 

Louis Virtel I love Wax and Dog. It should be discussed more, even though David Mammoth should not be discussed more. Yeah, he’s discussed exactly the right amount. Yes. We’ll be right back with the fabulous Kyle McLaughlin. But before that, some quick housekeeping. In today’s depraved media landscape, the only thing worse than being hated is being boring. That’s the world reality TV built, and we’re eating it up. Kicking up your feet as housewives rip into each other is one of the best ways to escape the onslaught of news. But the more we watch, the more it’s becoming clear how reality TV just hasn’t changed TV. It’s also changed politics. And a special Love It Or Leave It series, Bravo America. Pot Save America is Jon Lovett. Dives into the reality TV universe, interviewing icons from Survivor, The Real Housewives, and more to explore how these shows blur the line between authenticity and performance. Receipts, screenshots, wine drenched memories. You can find this series every Tuesday on the Love It Or Leave It feed or watch on YouTube. Also, California voters, you listening?

 

Jon Lovett I just I love I just want everyone to know that I was here for this and that Louis had to do a plug for my series while I sat in the room and I just think he did an amazing job.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, thank you. I was talking to California voters. Thanks. On November fourth, you’ll vote on Prop 50. It’s a ballot measure to stop Trump from power grabbing extra seats in the U.S. House and hanging on to his federal trifecta. The best way to make sure Prop fifty passes is to one vote yes on November fourth, and two, make sure everyone you know knows about the election. Vote Save America is hosting an event today, Wednesday, October 15th at 8 p.m. Eastern, to get you up to speed to take action that night. And you don’t have to live in California to join, have family or friends in California. You can join VSA’s call and learn about how to motivate them to get out and vote. Sign up by going to vote saveamerica.com/slash prop fifty, paid for by vote save America. Vote Save America.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. All right. We’ll be right back with Kyle McLaughlin.

 

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Louis Virtel This week’s guest is an illustrious actor known for his unforgettable performances in Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet, Sex in the City, Desperate Housewives, and more. He’s currently starring opposite Ethan Hawk in the new series The Lowdown, which is so fabulous, now streaming on Hulu. We’re gonna get into all that and much, much more. So without further ado, please welcome to Keep It, Kyle MacLachlan.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Ahhhhghhh….And the crowd goes.

 

Jon Lovett *Claps* I’ll do it for us. I’ll do it for us.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Oh yeah.

 

Louis Virtel You’re the first person to respond with like Argentinian soccer noise.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yes. There’s different sizes of stadiums that I can do.

 

Louis Virtel Oh thank you.

 

Kyle MacLachlan And that was that was the big one. So you got it. Anyway, pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

 

Louis Virtel The Lowdown is so rad to watch. It’s great to see you with actors you’ve worked with before, Gene Triplehorn and of course Ethan Hawk. But there’s a lot going on in this. There’s l there’s comedy elements, a lot of journalistic integrity elements, and then also you are scary on the side, I find in this. What brought you into this? What appealed to you?

 

Kyle MacLachlan There was there is a scary moment. Everything that I do has to have a scary moment at some point. I really love Sterling Hardjo as a director. I thought Res Dog’s Reservation Dogs was amazing. And Ethan, I’ve worked with, as you said, too many times now. I’m sick of him. I have to stop working with Ethan Hawk. Is he’s it’s such a dear friend, such a talented actor. So whenever Ethan is involved in something, you know, my ears go boop, you know, what’s he doing? Because it’s inevitably gonna be something great and and interesting and challenging, in which he’ll be the lead actor. But that’s okay. Well, I’m gonna talk about that later. But I just love working with him so much. So the combination of the two for me was a big part of the puzzle piece for going forward. Add to that this character, which in the pilot was n, you know, there with great potential, but wasn’t we didn’t realize that, of course, until we got picked up and we went to series. And I think Sterlin kind of he pushed the character I play of Donald Washburn in a really in a really interesting way. And just expanded him and allowed me to play a lot of different colors and and you know, qualities. So

 

Jon Lovett It’s funny ’cause I remember you with Ethan Hawk in Hamlet. You showed us you have a Shakespeare bust behind you. Yes. And you were Claudious in that. And it’s funny because I think of you

 

Kyle MacLachlan As like a Jon, are you old enough to see that? ‘Cause I’m wondering, looking at you, I don’t know if you saw when that came out. I assure you he is.

 

Jon Lovett I assure you he is. Yes. My my mother was playing Nintendo and watching it in the womb and I remember it. Understood.

 

Kyle MacLachlan I remember it. Understood. Understood. Okay, that makes more sense.

 

Jon Lovett But like I always think of you as like whether it’s Dune, whether it’s Twin Peaks, there’s a kind of a goodness to you. Like that’s like you you have a kind of a and I feel it seems like that’s why David Lynch grabbed onto you. There was like an open eyed goodness in what you do. And then it’s so nice to see you like w to go in a darker direction.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yeah, thank you. As an actor, you know, they it’s nice to it’s nice to have opportunities to do that. And David Lynch gave me a wonderful opportunity in the return, Twin Peaks Return, to play pretty much one of the most evil characters ever to walk the face of the earth. Which, you know, when I read it, I was like, okay, I’m gonna give this a shot, you know. We gotta we gotta aim for the fences on this. But it turned out great. And you know, we I think every actor has that capability. It’s just a question of whether you allow yourself to access it. And also who you have there supporting you, you know. So for Claudius with with Ethan, which was funny enough, was the second thing that we did. We actually did a little movie called Rich in Love. Whew, 1990, maybe. And but we didn’t have much to do together. But with the Hamlet was really a great opportunity to first to do do something great with Ethan, second to take the character of Claudius and put a little bit of a twist on him, making him sort of younger, a little more lethal. And that had an opportunity for me to like punch Ethan. And anytime you have a chance to hit Ethan, just the best thing. You have to take advantage of that. In fact, he gets beaten up a lot in our show. Oh my god. Yes, that’s cool. It’s one bloody day after another.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, he’s someone that has he’s so handsome, talented, and naturally confident. Well he’s sort of.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Well he sort of hands him. I don’t know.

 

Jon Lovett You don’t see okay for each his own. You know, maybe not your not your cup of tea, but some people find him to be attractive. And it is nice to see someone like that laid low a little bit. Yes, I agree from time to time. It is sad we’re out of the era of we’re doing Shakespeare, but it’s in an office. You know? That was so fun. We used to do that in like the nineties and two thousand. We’d be like, Oh, it’s it’s it’s Macbeth, but get this corporate boardrooms, you know? Like that was exciting. What a time that was.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yeah, it was it was a it was really fun. Gosh, I hadn’t been on, I hadn’t I hadn’t done Shakespeare since I graduated from college. So it was like in that was in the in the early 80s. So really fun to revisit that. And the cast of that was, I mean, a kind of a who’s who. But Bill Murray, Polonius, Sam Shepherd is Hamlet’s father, the king, Diane Venora, you know, one of the great stage actresses, and one of the greatest things about Heat, the movie Heat with Pacino and De Niro, she was unbelievable in that. Just a a stellar cast, and all people who knew how to handle language. And that was the fun of it, you know, because we were taking that language and putting it into, as you said, a different setting. And Michael Almoray, the director, you know, he he cut and edited quite a bit of stuff, changed things around a little bit, but the text remained the same, which is always the key thing.

 

Louis Virtel You already brought up Twin Peaks, but this episode we’re talking a lot about Diane Keaton, who you had the somewhat rare experience of being directed by Diane on Twin Peaks. And I wondered if you had any specific memories from that, because I I I picture being directed by Diane Keaton and I’m both inspired and laughing because I picture her sputtering as she does it.

 

Kyle MacLachlan It’s so true. She was one of the most endearing people, even in the brief few days that we had together, you know, because I mean, who who who doesn’t love Diane Keaton? I mean, they’re just she’s extraordinary and she’s indelible, you know. And as a and but but as a director, she was she was very prepared. She was very concise, she was very particular about what she wanted, she’s very gentle, you know, she had a sense of fun. There were so many similarities between her style and David Lynch’s style, where the the fun is always remains. And which is so important to create an atmosphere of of creativity and and relaxation on set, and let’s try this, and whoops, that didn’t work, but you know, no one’s judging. We’re just trying to figure the best way through. And she had all of that. And and she’s Diane Keaton, for God’s sake. It was really memorable for me.

 

Louis Virtel Going back to the lowdown quickly though, I kept thinking, Gene Triplehorn gave you a sort of tutorial of Tulsa while you were there. And I was wondering what you took away from be actually filming in that area because this show has such an amazing sense of setting. Like it only belongs where it is.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Agree, which is why I mean, Sterling being from Tulsa, so many of the actors in the show, Jean, as you said, Tim Blake Nelson, Tracy, Tracy Let’s they know the city. And Jeannie just, you know, opened her heart to let’s go because she, you know, she loves her city. And she just said, let’s go. And when we shot the pilot, you know, we had days off. And so it was like, let’s go explore this area. And she showed me certain neighborhoods, and we drove around. There was a house that she was thinking of buying at one time. You know, we and we took a tour of the house, you know, it was an old, it’s a it’s a Frank Lloyd Wright. We were like, and I just was like, this is exposing me to a city that left to my own devices. When you work on something, you know, you kind of you see the hotel room and you see the van and you see the set, and then you see the hotel room, and then you see the van and you see the set, you see, you just sort of play that over and over and over again. And unless you’re adventurous, you don’t you don’t go out, you know. And she was the one that really pushed me out the door and said, Let’s go explore and find some places. We had some great dinners. And then we filmed in some unusual spots too, well outside the city. And on some of those drives, you know, there were threatening storms, like, you know, I was always tornado watch when we were driving in the car. And I felt like I was in one of the movies, you know, we’re looking for twisters, you know. And the drivers would be like, nah, no twisters. I was like, I’m pretty sure a twister just around the corner, because I think we’re gonna see one. One’s gonna touch down. So be ready. I was so excited. We never saw a twist.

 

Jon Lovett Isn’t it crazy that tornadoes are like they they exist in other parts of the world, but it is like uniquely in a part of this part of America where tornadoes are a constant part of people’s minds and people from other countries are like it’s like you’re talking about dragons. Like what do you mean tornadoes? The air comes down and spins and ruins everything? That makes no sense.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yeah, and control sting and kill people and do all this crazy stuff and cut damage and you don’t know where they’re gonna go or what happens. It’s like a dragon. I think that’s a great analogy. I’m gonna use that if I may, Jon. Thank you. No, it’s yours. It’s yours. Hey.

 

Jon Lovett Take it, take it, take it.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Take it, take it, it’s all good.

 

Jon Lovett I have a question. Remember Sex in the City? So when you’re you were on it.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yes, I do.

 

Jon Lovett When you were gonna be on Sex in the City, did you understand that you were gonna be on a path where at some point you were gonna have to spend a day filming in a bathroom pretending to masturbate to a magazine of big busted women with your show’s fiance glued to it? Did you know that?

 

Kyle MacLachlan This was why I agreed to do the show in the first place, Jon. Who wouldn’t after that? Well, you know, I talk about that a little bit occasionally, in that television, streaming television, not not network necessarily, but streaming television, is is very frightening because you don’t know what’s around the corner. And you go in trusting, you know, you’re naive, you’re wide-eyed, you’re bushy-tailed, you’re ready to go. And then you read a script and you’re like, wait, do I have to get naked here? I guess I’m getting naked next week. Okay. All right. Okay. Gre oh, and there’s an emotional breakdown. You have to break down and cry, real tears and go, and and this whole thing. Right. Okay, okay, got that. So no one, you don’t know going in, like a movie, you’re like, okay, here’s where I start, here’s where I end, and you’re like, okay, I got it. I gotta do this and this and this. Got some time to prepare, get my head around it. Not on television. It’s like ready, set, go. And so you just don’t know what’s gonna happen. So you you have to have a you have to have a sense of humor about these things because you know at some point you’re gonna be humiliated again and again. So I just accepted it. I went in and I thought, what’s this will be fun? I really did, I gotta say, I enjoyed myself so much. The such creative people, I really like Kristen Davis. I think she was amazing. She’s so funny. She’s she’s what I call inadvertently funny, which is really hard to do. In fact, I’ve never I’ve never figured out if she knows she’s funny or is she just funny. And I’ve never asked her. I’m gonna go on her podcast soon and I’m gonna ask her. I didn’t have the I didn’t have the the courage to ask her before.

 

Jon Lovett You have that quality too a little bit. I think you have that quality that people might not know if whether or not you’re in on the joke, like on in Twin Peaks and like that’s a part of like I think your kind of like straight laced guy dynamic.

 

Kyle MacLachlan I love doing that because I do love I do it in life too. I say things and people are like, What? I’m like, Oh, oh, he’s being funny. Okay, okay. Because I you know, I try to keep straight face.

 

Louis Virtel I was gonna say you already brought up Kristen Davis, but I’m also curious, since you just brought up Diane Vanora, the great stage actress. Oh you working on sex in the city, Frances Sternhagen is one of the great stage actresses of all time who played your mother, Bunny McDougal. Something about that character lingers with me forever. She was so there’s no other word for it, bone shilling. And I I’m I’m wondering what choices she made to actually make that happen. Cause it sticks with me. Like I’m I’m chattering as I s sit here and think about her. What was the dynamic like working with her?

 

Kyle MacLachlan Frightening, she would come in and throw things. She was she would come in literally like she just came down from upstate New York from her farm. And she walk in in her Birkinstocks and her like short, you know, long pants, you know, and like a blouse you might, you know, you might put on before you go out in the garden, almost wearing a straw hat. I swear to God, the lady just came from a rural part of the world, but you know that she does world really well. Like she has the canning stuff in her kitchen, she’s got the garden, you know, she’s but she’s on a couple boards at the same time. You know, she’s like she’s so powerful and so you just it unexpected. And she would put on the Chanel and get into that Upper East Side vibe. And and exactly exactly what you said, Louis, she would she would become bunny, with that kind of you know, that disdain and the dismissive kind of thing, which which really worked on Trey, of course. I mean, he was, you know, he was at her mercy. But he also really, I think he really secretly loved, he loved her. Well, he wouldn’t be in the bathtub with her in the room if he didn’t really love her, because they they have that kind of odd relationship, which I I loved it. That was one of the scenes where I said, we don’t need to know anything more about, we don’t need to talk about the relation, that relationship anymore. Everything is visual, and it’s right there in front of us, which I which I loved. I loved. That was that was one of the brilliant things about the writers on Sex in the City were amazing.

 

Jon Lovett You know, you talk a lot about the the the language and you talk about David Lynch as a director. You you feel in his work that that he didn’t really trust words and that he was trying to get the words out of the way to tell whatever story he was trying to sell. Yeah, kind of. I think so, yeah. And that but that that made him it hard to get direction from him sometimes because he didn’t trust the words he was using. But that you said you developed a special language. Yes. I’m like genuinely curious, like exactly what that means. Like, what does it mean for David Lynch to give you a direction when he doesn’t trust the words that he’s saying?

 

Kyle MacLachlan Well, he would speak to me backwards. So

 

Jon Lovett No, no, that was good.

 

Kyle MacLachlan I’m from Russia. David would, yeah, I don’t. It’s a good comment about words and language and how he how he uses it because he also incorporates words into his paintings. And they’re quite primitive and they’re funny and chilling at the same time. You know, he’ll have a painting of some macabre scene, and you know, it’s Billy did a bad thing, you know. It’s so like, and there’s a humor there that I know he he laughs at inside, but he yet with the visual that you’re seeing is so disturbing. Which is a lot of his work, of course. But when he would talk to me, and I’m sure I’m sure other actors too, but what I remember him speaking in terms of more about mood, he would set the a mood. So he would say, Elvis. Oh, here comes the rain again. Here comes the rain again. Your rhythmics, oh, yes. Exactly. So he would say, like, more wind. Or Elvis needs a little more Elvis, or sometimes he wouldn’t even say anything at all. He just kind of we’d sit there and he’d be like this, he’d be like, we’d because we I would come on, you know, I’d do the scene, then I’d come back, come over to where he was sitting, and we sometimes he would sit there, or sometimes he’d come to me and we’d just sit there, and I said, Let me let me try one thing. Because we both knew something wasn’t quite right, and he couldn’t quite express it. I could sort of maybe feel it, and then we would try it again. And most of the time it was like, yes, that’s that’s right. A lot of the times when he was directing me as Dougie in Twin Peaks, the return, he would just let the camera roll. He wouldn’t say anything. It was just, and Dougie, you know, I can’t do anything. So it was a kind of a test of who’s gonna break first. And I said, it’s taking a lot of courage to do this because I’m not doing anything, but I’m up here, but I’m engaged, and David is just watching and watching and watching, and then he says, Okay, perfect, and cut. So I don’t know what happened, but I would be just in this kind of odd limbo state. Obviously, things are going through my my head, but David is seeing something going on that that only he can see.

 

Jon Lovett Did you hear that? Oh, perfect cut. That sounded like David Lynch. Wow, that was so interesting. I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed that little bit of David Lynch from you. That was exciting. It felt exciting in the moment for us.

 

Louis Virtel But also I’m a little baffled because I would assume that sometimes if something doesn’t feel quite right, that might mean it’s quite right when you’re working with David Lynch. So I’m interested in the judgment calls on both your parts. Yeah.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yes. Occasionally the he loves the happy accident. He loved it. And there are many strewn throughout the years, from flickering lights in in a in a building in a you know, where we’re not shooting on a set, we’re shooting in a real place, and they can’t adjust the the cycle of the electricity. The lights are just gonna have to flicker for the scene to a sound element that might can’t do anything about it. It’s gonna have to be in the scene. So we just he just says, okay, we’ll just incorporate it in, you know. So it can be it’s meant to be awkward. He loved that because he called it a a real moment. The the happy accident is a real moment. There was a moment in the in the in the original series where llama walks through a scene and I’m talking to Sheriff Truman to to Mike Onkeen, and the llama walks through and just sort of goes face to face with me for about a you know a beat and then continues on through the scene, kind of interrupts the moment. And the the act the actor in me is going, Don’t break because this is a great moment. So I was just like, but the character is like communing with the llama for a minute, and then we go right back to the scene. And and I, you know, recognize don’t, you know, don’t please nobody in the scene, you know, suddenly crack up. But everybody was conditioned because of working with David. You don’t ruin a take because something goes wrong. You keep going, and it can become something.

 

Louis Virtel Now, I have to ask about your fabulous presence on TikTok and also your new podcast in which you talk to millennial Gen Z creators about their creative process. One of my favorite all-time podcasts hosted by Amy Mann was about is called The Art of Process and really got into artists’ minds. And I so appreciate that. It’s so fabulous. What spurred this idea though?

 

Kyle MacLachlan Heart said, Hey, we like this idea, and so they’ve been really helpful. We have a cool little studio space on the street in Hollywood called Cosmo, which I think is so appropriate. I d I dare you, if if anyone has been on Cosmo or knows where Cosmo is, without looking at Google Maps, you will win a prize. It’s tucked away.

 

Louis Virtel But you have faced two of my greatest demons head on, Francis Sternhagen and Gen Z. You should be commended.

 

Kyle MacLachlan They’re actually they’re fine. They they don’t they don’t bite you. Okay. They’re very interested. They’re very curious. And they’re sort of curious about what it’s like to be an old guy. So we talk about the early, you know, those years, which I appreciate because I would have been it’s fun to to go back and revisit a different time as an actor, as an artist, when someone else was doing something and there were different criteria, different, different expectations, a different world, a different world, you know? And what was kind of the driving, motivating forces back then? What was Hollywood like? What was well, you know, all those questions that you want to know from people that actually went through it, you know, if they can remember. I guess they say if you were in Hollywood back in the 60s, you then you weren’t really there, right? If you can’t remember if you can remember the Hollywood back in the

 

Jon Lovett What’s that quote? I don’t know. I I do a lot of drugs, I don’t really know. That’s exactly

 

Kyle MacLachlan That’s exactly right. It has that’s the reference.

 

Louis Virtel Kyle, if I can ask you one final question, you just said, if you could recommend to someone Gen Z aged to watch a movie in the era of Brando or James Dean that they probably haven’t seen, what would be a good starter or sort of entry point into that era?

 

Kyle MacLachlan Oh gosh, trick question. You know, I I mean Rebel or Rebel Without a Cause or East of Eden to me. East of Eden I think probably was the one for James Dean, because he’s so good in it.

 

Louis Virtel And I love Julie Harris.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Too so fabulous. She’s amazing too. Thank you for reminding me. Yeah, she’s amazing. That’s a great starter. And then I guess it’s older now, but I I really love just as a sense of what how crazy the Vietnam War was, apocalypse now, I think, is and Brandlett’s performance in that is chilling. I love that. And his performance.

 

Louis Virtel In the documentary is even more chilling. So

 

Kyle MacLachlan Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. That’s just that’s just a different thing. I was thinking about Rebel too, because Dennis Hopper is in Rebel.

 

Louis Virtel Correct. Yes. Fabulous and apocalypse now, of course.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Look at that. I you’re absolutely right. And I got to work with him. He’s just what an extraordinary man he was. Oh yeah, he was in blue velvet, wasn’t he? Yeah. Let me think. Yes. Yeah. Something about blue ribbon or something. You remember trauma I was traumatized. There’s nothing compared to what I felt, for goodness sakes.

 

Jon Lovett Remember when Dennis Hopper’s head came off in that bus? Yeah. Different movie. That’s yeah, yeah. Different movie. Yeah. Different movie. Different movie.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Different movie. Oh, that’s

 

Jon Lovett That’s Rebel Without a Cause.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Oh God. Oh, you know what’s another good one too is Easy Rider. Of course. Oh yes. Of course. That’s a great that’s a really good movie of a time. First of its type, of that time. That would be good. Peter Fonda, dance opera. Jack Nicholson.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Kyle, thank you so much for being here. A delight to talk to. And I can’t wait to listen to more of this podcast. It’s such an awesome idea.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I’m excited. We we go back. We’ve got ten. We’ve we’ve we’ve dropped four and I’ve got another five to record next week. I love it. I I you know, it’s just I love the research side of it. I love sitting down and just learning about what’s happening in the world, the young world, this up and coming world and how they’re dealing with everything. And so yeah, I’m so far it’s been a it’s been a dream journey.

 

Jon Lovett Journey. And you gotta tell those kids if they think Timothy Chalamet is Paul Atreides.

 

Kyle MacLachlan They gotta they gotta learn their

 

Jon Lovett Fucking history.

 

Kyle MacLachlan Yeah, yeah, listen. I straighten ’em out straight away. Right away. We just give ’em a little bit of spice.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, that’s good.

 

Kyle MacLachlan We don’t make him drink the water of life. No water of life yet. Just a little bit of spice. That’s all.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you again for being here. Such a pleasure. What a pleasure. You guys are great. Thank you for having me on. Thank you to the fabulous Kyle McLaughlin. The lowdown is available to watch right now on Hulu. We’ll be right back with more Keep It.

 

[AD].

 

Louis Virtel J Lo’s career has had a few shaky years, especially with that ass. But she’s attempting a critical comeback in the new musical thriller, The Kiss of the Spider Woman. Now I have several thoughts to share, but before I take over, Jon, would you call yourself a JLo fan?

 

Jon Lovett I find.

 

Louis Virtel You’re from the block, are you not?

 

Jon Lovett Yes. That’s where we first met, on the block. So it’s funny to say JLo’s career has had a few shaky years. J-Lo’s career is never not shaken. It’s a constant. That thing has always felt like it’s teetering. She’s always like it. There’s something about Jennifer Lopez, too. First of all, who I actually really like and think is extreme, like amazingly talented. Quite charismatic, yes. There is something about you always feel like whatever she is doing, whatever she is making, you are also watching the story of can Jennifer Lopez pull this off? Right. Which is which actually is like speaks to her like willingness to try, interesting and different. But to me, the best thing that Jennifer Lopez has ever done is a movie called The Cell with Vincent Denavrio. Yes. Hustlers people really like, but for me, the cell is like, wow, this is somebody who could have done a bunch of different stuff. She decided to take a crazy swing, and she is excellent in it. It is excellent. To me, like Jennifer Lopez is the story of an extraordinary talented person bringing 100% to mediocre project after mediocre project. And it is

 

Louis Virtel We have a lot of those people. I think Dakota Jonson is routinely like that.

 

Jon Lovett And it’s like I don’t and maybe it’s what she’s interested in. I I don’t totally get it, but I always feel like the next thing is the thing where we finally get J Lo at her best. There are exceptions at the cell, hustlers, others, some like she has like hit songs, but like that to me is.

 

Louis Virtel My feeling about JLo. You know what The Cell was visually inspired by Madonna’s bedtime story video.

 

Jon Lovett And the art of who’s the guy that cuts the sharks in half? Also cows. Damien Hurst. He cuts the sharks in half. That’s who does it. So it’s Madonna meets Damian Hurst, which is I think a great way of describing.

 

Louis Virtel I think Jennifer Lopez’s greatest moment is her Super Bowl performance with Shakira. That was such an unexpected blend. They really have nothing in common. They’re great. And then together it was a pure bonanza. Because so many times at the Super Bowl, they’ll throw three people together and I don’t know why we’re doing this. Yes. You know, like Katy Perry and Missy Elliott do not need to meet.

 

Jon Lovett Right. It is just stalled. You know, it’s like where’s our like where’s our kind of moment of like transcendence of all these people on stage together? I remember that. She was so fucking good. That was good.

 

Louis Virtel And she was dancing as fast as she can, Sierra style. The dancing was not only good, it was speedy. Okay. You say gestalt or gestalt. What do you say? I say gestalt, but I could be wrong. I think both are acceptable. I I took behavioral psychology once upon a time. That’s right. Now Kiss of the Spider Woman. Let me say about this movie. Let’s hear what we have to say about it. I’m not a huge fan of the William Hurt movie or performance, actually. In terms of Oscar winning performances, it is definitely the forebear to take it or leave it, Jared Leto and Der Dallas Buyers Club, another, I don’t believe, proud showing of the academy. But I’ve never seen the musical, even though I love Terrence McNally, who wrote the book, who of course wrote La Vell or Compassion and Masterclass, one of the great gay playwrights. This movie, I can’t say I loved a single frame of it, and yet I have an affection for this movie. I think there’s a gentleness to it and a sweetness to it that I thought was pretty good.

 

Jon Lovett So I need to confess something. Yeah. Which is I was 30 minutes in last night and I texted Kennedy. Please don’t make me watch any more of this. I can’t take it. I can’t take it. Why? There was something about the show within a show, and I really like Bill Condon, but there was something about the Argentinian prison felt a little high school production to me.

 

Louis Virtel It never felt like they were in a prison. It must be so

 

Jon Lovett Because we’re meant to see this sort of tension between the the gritty real world of the prison and the magic of the fantasy world. And I just felt like I was still in a musical, even when I was in the dark, dingy prison. But as it’s happened to me so many times in my life, musicals will get me. It will get me, and this one got me, despite myself. Because my my feeling about this was I thought Jennifer Lopez was great. I thought she was good. I thought she was great. I thought she was great. I I really thought she was good. And then you have Diego Luna, who I love, and he is opposite, an actor who I who I didn’t know, whose name is escaping me. Oh, single name sensation, Tona Tw. And I I thought thought they were very good. And I don’t love the songs. And yet, by the time I get to the end, like I was like near tears. It worked on me. What I came away from it thinking is like, God, I want to see Jennifer Lopez in a different musical.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I I just think there was a rare sensitivity that sort of had nothing to do with what I was seeing on screen, actually. Like it achieved something like between the lines somehow. Jennifer Lopez appears in fantasy sequences. There are these two guys in a prison cell. One is describing this movie that he loves to the other. And Jennifer Lopez plays the actress, this the golden age Hollywood actress in this fantasy. For fantasy sequences, it felt like there wasn’t enough fantasy. It was a colorful room and she looked fabulous, but there’s something like they were hearkening back to like Sid Sharice style musicals. And when you watch those musicals, Sid Sharice is flying across the screen. I felt like these were occurring at half speed. And you wanted something that felt a little bit more dynamic, that felt like we’re really busting out of a prison right now.

 

Jon Lovett There was too much camp in the non-camp moments and not enough camp in what were meant to be the camp moments. Correct. It was very colorful, but very kind of grounded in a way. Like the kind of stylized way in which it is directed. You’re in these you know, technicolor spaces and they’re moving all around and they’re in a car, but it’s clearly like kind of the way you would shoot a car in an old movie. But like the performances were very grounded. Part of that is because Diego Luna I thought he was great. He’s always great. I think he is always great, but he is like a campy actor, he is not. Right. That is not a that doesn’t seem to be a gear he was going to in this. And I think Jennifer Lopez is in her kind of serious performance mode and bringing trying to make it as real as possible. And so those scenes all felt a little, I don’t know, like you’re right, too real, not musical enough.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I also think a a problem and again I love Diego Luna, the other actor we brought up, Tona Tew, the character he’s playing is a little bit like Angel in Rent, where there’s supposed to be like a fabulous flounce to everything he does. And I felt that he was self-conscious the entire time. I never felt like it was he was living in that sort of gay, fabulous persona. I felt like I was watching somebody make choices as that person.

 

Jon Lovett Yes, I think when it is self-consciously meant to be that kind of performance, I don’t think it is strong as when that takes a backseat to a performance that I thought was actually like really like interesting and good, especially in the more serious moments. I will say, like, I I don’t know Kiss of the Spider Woman. I did not know the movie or the original musical. But then I was like, I I can’t imagine this was in the original Broadway, which is this is a bit of a spoiler. If you see Kiss of the Spider Woman, you will see an intercut scene where Jennifer Lopez sings a song in front of a big spider web while two men have passionate, passionate sex. Just as I dreamed she would. And I I said this movie all builds to this moment, and boy, did they go for it. And there are two sex scenes. One is kind of it you it it cuts away before the action really begins. And I thought, oh, I guess that’s how they’re handling it in this movie. No, no, no, no. Don’t worry, friends. If you bought a ticket and you’re like, that’s the sex scene, show some patience, for you will get a graphic graph, like very intimate lovemaking scene. While again, Jennifer Lopez sings about being the Spider-Woman.

 

Louis Virtel The this movie is a little audacious. I mean, like it’s it gives you more than you probably expect from, I don’t know, a Jennifer Lopez musical.

 

Jon Lovett Yes, well, it’s like she’s going for it. You know, I saw I was worried before we watched this. I was very nervous that the movie was going to be much worse than it is because I saw like a kind of promotional video and it was a promotional video about everybody talking about how good Jennifer Lopez is in it and how much she went for it, which I’ve telling and not showing. And I was like, oh no, this must be a disaster. It is not. Yeah. It is not. And like I I liked her in this musical. I would I’ll tell you, like, if you told me that like Nicole Scherzinger is stepping out of Sunset Boulevard and being replaced, it’s already gone. But if it if she was stepping out of it and and being replaced by Jennifer Lopez, I would have been fucking in for that.

 

Louis Virtel I would not be. And I’ll tell you why. I feel like comparing Jennifer Lopez to Cheetah Rivera, who won the Tony for this musical, Cheetah Rivera has a real like, she she can dig into, and there’s no other word for it, camp. Like she gets in your face. Everything, everything about her is a tentacle. Whereas I think Jennifer Lopez is a little afraid of camp. Yeah. She’s she’s too busy being relatable and saying she’s from that’s right the block, that I feel like she can’t let herself go in a role like this. And she’s really born for a movie like Hustlers, where the entire thrust of the performance is, I’m gonna relate to the girls around me.

 

Jon Lovett Yes, I I hear you. I I also feel like she jokes aside, like there’s been a bunch of stories about her various, I didn’t even see them, but these sort of documentaries that were very silly and that nobody wants to be a part of. Like she kind of taken her lumps since hustlers. And that you feel that in this, that this is a chance to like prove something. And like it’s not a performance where you want to see somebody proving something. It’s a performance where you want to see somebody let go. I hear that. But like she is great. Jennifer Lopez is great. Why is her work never as good as Jennifer Lopez? Yeah. I’m mad about it. We are waiting for it out of sight too. Yes, give me like there’s moments like that where you’re like, God damn it, she’s so fucking good. She’s so good in the cell. Like she’s so good when she’s good. And like maybe it’s what she’s picking, maybe it’s what comes to her. I have no idea, but it’s like I st even this, it’s like of all the musicals to do, Kins of the Spider-Woman, it’s like it’s not a candor and ebbs.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, top tier.

 

Jon Lovett No, it like I the and and the other problem I have with this too is like i it it might as well like as the opening credits role, it might have said like directed by Bill Condon, this is relevant to today. Kiss of the Spider Woman. Yeah, right. And so you feel the like, we are making a movie that is relevant to this moment.

 

Louis Virtel I can hear the pitch, yeah. Right.

 

Jon Lovett Right. And like fine. But so often, like the stories that help us understand a moment, it is rare that the contours of it are like the topology of the story is so familiar to our current experience. Like it is more, I think more common that you can find a way to relate to a piece of art about the time you’re in. If it steps outside of it a bit more, it takes you in a little bit more of a roundabout way to the feeling. Because watching this about a dictatorship and crackdown on dissent and people fighting a government. Yes. Like it all is so one-to-one. And that makes an intellectual, it makes it harder to have the feeling. And like the feeling to me is what you want. And so that to me is the problem. And so like even cabaret feels a little bit further away in that when it’s situated, how it works, this felt so much more kind of yeah, I get this idea of like a movie for now, a musical for now.

 

Louis Virtel Now, speaking of Bill Condon, do you know what else he directed? One of the great curiosities in all of entertainment, there was a TV pilot in 2011 where Diane Keaton played Nikki Fink. What? The journalist at deadline.com who has since passed away, but was the, you know, the great cantankerous scoop grabbing. If you believe the news. Right. But she was supposed to play Nikki Fink proxy. Elliot Page was like her assistant person, who I I assume that this character ran ragged. And this tape exists somewhere. And I am still so curious what Bill Condon brought to that project. And I think we would have gotten a Diane Keaton that would have been hair-raising.

 

Jon Lovett I’m I’m you know what? I’m interested in it. So Josh Gadd played Lefu in Beauty and the Beast. And I did a table read once. It was the live action, Beauty and the Beast. And I was just doing a one day like comedy punch up of the script, focused on trying to like for Lefu, because it was Josh wanted to like figure out how to make it the most funny version of Lafu he could think of. And first of all, I hadn’t seen any of the live action versions of the movies that they’d already made. And so before I went to the table read, which was at noon on a Saturday, I had to go to the only morning showing of Cinderella. So as a an adult man.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, the Kate Blanchett one.

 

Jon Lovett Is Cape No, no. Who’s in who’s in the Cinderella? It’s not Cape Blanch. Maybe it was Cape Blanchett.

 

Louis Virtel She’s the the evil queen.

 

Jon Lovett And then it left no fucking impression. But I I woke up early, super early. I woke up early. I went to the movie theater alone. It was a theater full of like parents and children. I am a single man seeing Cinderella at like nine AM on a Saturday, which I like immediately felt like like uncomfortable. Yeah, I would have taken a picture and sent it to page six. Yeah. Yeah, and and I got a hot dog.

 

Louis Virtel Unacceptable.

 

Jon Lovett But so anyway, I so then I I watched this thing just to understand what they’re trying to do with these live action movies, and I came away thinking, oh, they’re trying to make money. And so then I went to do this thing, and all I could pitch were ways in which LeFou I wanted Lumiere and the Cogsworth. I wanted them to be gay. I wanted LeFou to be as gay as humanly fucking possible. And LeFou ended up being gay.

 

Louis Virtel Right. They tried to make a mountain out of a molehill with that. Like he sort of winks to the camera and is like, you know, see you with the Abbey or whatever he does.

 

Jon Lovett I I pitched something in that room which fell like a lead balloon, but to this day I believe would be funny in something, which is you know, what’s his name? Gaston has that big like rifle. Yeah. And my pitch was that LeFu Le Fou would walk up with a barrel that had a hole in it and be like, It’s called a silencer.

 

Louis Virtel Help me God. You thought you were gonna get Walt Disney on the line? He was gonna be like, Yes, mama, let’s do it. So stupid.

 

Jon Lovett Such a stupid I don’t know if I got anything into that movie, but I I feel like the energy I brought, which is that every single person in this film should be gay, did in some sense carry on and I can feel like I could feel proud of that. But I like Bill Condon.

 

Louis Virtel Now letter grade for Kiss the Spider Woman. I’m gonna go C. I thought it was gonna be a D, so

 

Jon Lovett You know, yeah, it’s I’m with you. I agree with that. It’s a somewhere in the C to B minus range and and I ha I hate even giving a letter. I like I feel bad even giving a letter ’cause you know it’s Oh, I love it. But my problem too is it’s like it’s did it fail while daring greatly it dared, but not that greatly.

 

Louis Virtel Maybe a C plus. Maybe a C plus.

 

Jon Lovett Maybe a C plus. And and I wanted more from it. And I honestly, while I was at I I was watching it and I was like, What why did I find myself having more of a fun time watching what is objectively a worse piece of art, which is Amelia Parents, which is the the last movie musical I saw. Because that thing that was like we are leaving it all on the field. We are gonna make the race.

 

Louis Virtel I thought it was just like here we are on a mine cart into wherever and Yes and and like I didn’t take any of it seriously.

 

Jon Lovett No, and I like I defended Amelia Perez and I will defend Emilia Perez to my death. And she’s here now.

 

Louis Virtel Now, Amelia Peresno. No. No, I thought that movie had a lot going for it. Madonna liked it too, and her taste right now is terrible. We will be back with more Keep It. And we’re back with our favorite and sauciest part of the episode. It’s Keep It. Jon, what sauce are you bringing today? I’m guessing Hollandaise. Oh, yeah.

 

Jon Lovett A buttery yogi sauce. By the way, you know what? My keeping could be for Holanday sauce, which is a crazy food item that we put on things. Like it is just butter and egg yolk.

 

Louis Virtel It’s Greece.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah. It’s wild that that’s considered fancy and sophisticated. It’s very of the fifties.

 

Louis Virtel Like what they eat in the movie Carol, where it’s like a leaf and also ooze.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, right. W where salad could have marshmallows in it. But my keep it is going to be the fact that Turning Point USA, the organization founded by Charlie Kirk, has decided to counter program the bad bunny Super Bowl halftime show. Do your own thing. I don’t mind that. There was the puppy bowl. There’s all kinds of ways in which people counterprogram the Super Bowl, the big game, as it were, if we were doing an advertisement. But first of all, Christy Noam was like, We’re gonna have ice at the Super Bowl. Kind of I I don’t understand why. Like there’s some.

 

Louis Virtel She’s amazing. Give it up.

 

Jon Lovett There’s a way in which there’s a way in which like I think a lot of people have intellectually know that Puerto Rico is America, but they can’t actually feel it. It doesn’t feel true to them. And so it’s like he’s a he’s an American.

 

Louis Virtel People have never heard of the word annex. You can’t just bring this fact up to them.

 

Jon Lovett There’s so much outrage about the fact that he’s going to sing songs in Spanish that so now Turning Point is going to do their own version of the Super Bowl halftime show where the the potential I believe genres you could select were Americana, worship and English. Which I think is actually very funny. My real keep it though is to a whole culture in right wing media that is about making people hate things that they love when they’re already so mad about so many different things. And it’s like you’re gonna ruin football for them. You’ve already told them baseball is bad. You’ve made them turn against Nike and Disney and all these other kind of sources of joy in their lives. And it’s it’s just like this effort to kind of get people addled. And it would be so easy to say, you know, Bad Bunny has said things about Donald Trump that we don’t agree with, but this is America, and if people like it, that’s fine. Not our thing. But no, it has to be like the fact that that the Super Bowl is going to have a halftime performance by someone that they don’t agree with, it has to be an attack on them. And like that is such a big fucking like part of this problem, which is hey, like other people exist in America and moments when there are entertainers like that aren’t for you, that isn’t meant to be an insult to you. And there are so many people that were like so pissed about Kendrick Lamar and nothing to be pissed about Bad Bunny. And they’re maybe they’ll watch it, maybe they won’t. But if they watch it, they’re not gonna say, oh, you know what? I don’t totally understand this, but people seem to really love it. I wonder if there’s some way in which I could learn to appreciate that. That is inconfable. So instead it’ll just be this is bad.

 

Louis Virtel I cannot get over the amount of high-ranking Republicans who think it is some sort of own to say, I’ve never heard of him. Well, that’s fucking weird because he was the number one artist on Spotify three years in a row. He it remains staggeringly popular. And then people like Laura Ingram, et cetera, will respond with they don’t appreciate artists like Lee Greenwood, bitch with his one hit. Excuse me, is it like 1983 in here? Why is it like because it’s it’s so insane that they dis disparage this person? I guess because his name is Bad Bunny, and that sounds like someone they would never listen to. The idea that someone would listen to that and think they have a point is ridiculous.

 

Jon Lovett There was an English professor who wrote a book about what it was like teaching in this era. And apparently he had an assignment and he would have everyone read some book and then he would ask them what they thought about it. And when people said they didn’t like it, the next question was what are the flaws in your character that prevented you from appreciating it? Which is an interesting question to actually have to answer. And like, I don’t know, like I I’m not the most evolved person. Like, I, you know, I’m not totally self aware. I’m not like, I’m not wise, but I you know, I’m 43. I have cracked a little bit of the code, which is hey, part of getting older is trying your best to remain interested and curious in the world. Because if you don’t like something, that doesn’t mean it’s bad. And maybe you could try to figure out why you don’t like it, because there’s good stuff to be mined in trying to push what you appreciate. And the fact that there’s a whole entire culture that is trying to train people to think that that is a waste of time, not even on the table, it’s just like forget politics. Like it’s just bad for our fucking brain.

 

Louis Virtel And you know what’s good for your brains? Go into the comments on our videos and make fun of my Taylor Swift opinions. Baby, I want more. You you thought you came for me? Come harder. What are they what are they saying? They just don’t love what I have to say.

 

Jon Lovett Well just give me your what’s your thirty what’s your what’s your my favorite?

 

Louis Virtel My favorite was like, I love when people who’ve never made an album before think they can criticize an artist. I’m like, Good, because I’m gonna do that. Critics do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it Taylor Swift is a little bit like Harry Potter, where people think they’re a fan of music because they listen to this one thing, but that’s the only version they I think that’s the only music they listen to, or that’s the only book they read. So if you criticize that, you’re sort of criticizing their entire understanding of music, I think. What I’m saying is 14 year olds got to the keyboard.

 

Jon Lovett It’s also just like I do think sometimes it’s like there should be a baseline assumption that like making excellent work is very, very difficult. And there’s like plenty of criticism that doesn’t appreciate how hard it is to make something that’s terrible. But that what’s her name? Oh, Fran Lewitz talked about how I knew it was gonna be her. Did you? Yes. That’s cool. But that talked about how like that it takes good audiences to make good art. Right. And you need a good audience to understand and appreciate the small things to challenge performers to make something excellent. And because we’ve decimated all kinds of media and so much criticism is now kind of what an average and so many, so many mainstream people that write for publications about movies and and music are afraid of telling the truth at times for either not having access to the future artists they want to interview or being afraid of the audience that will attack them. There’s so much criticism that refuses to have taste, and we must be a vanguard for taste and understanding that there is such a thing as fucking taste.

 

Louis Virtel You know what I didn’t know by the way? Reading old Fran Libowitz from the seventies. She at the time, you know, snarking about whatever, hated a chorus line, which I always assumed was totally cool since it was so like gay and audacious, but no, it wasn’t. I think it was just like it was also seen as a traditional musical in a way, which of course would not be Fran Leibowitz’s thing.

 

Jon Lovett It wouldn’t be her. I could see her you and you and her would have a lot to talk about.

 

Louis Virtel Oh god. I I actually one of the few celebrities I’m a little afraid of, I have to say. Hey, book her for this. Watch me tremble on camera, fully like shaking like like Piglet and Winnie the Pooh. Mm-hmm. Okay. It’s time for with your cute little tail. Oh, yeah. Is that a bodysuit? He looks like he’s wearing a swimsuit. Who? Piglet. You mean in in the in the cartoon? Yes. With like the lines on it. Well, he’s a doll. But is the doll wearing an outfit? I don’t know. I can’t figure it out. I’ve it’s on my mind. Anyway, my keep it today, guys. Yet again, we are hit with another untimely celebrity death. A master of his genre. A the album Voodoo is just irreplaceable. Right up there with the miseducation of Lauren Hill for late 90s neo soul, just f fabulous music. D’Angelo passed away. And my keep it is to the Lord. We’ve had enough. I’ve I’m sorry. We’re just not in a moment where I want more celebrity deaths at the moment.

 

Jon Lovett You hear me, Lord? Go ahead. Yeah. And the answer is yes. Yeah. Interesting. So one must be careful. But yeah, we did this on Love or Leave It, which is to like, D’Angelo was young, so it’s like very different and that’s obviously what’s bad.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, he was fifty one.

 

Jon Lovett But we were trying to think of older celebrities in their nineties that we want to take a moment to appreciate before they’re gone. And one of the people on the list that we actually didn’t end up talking about just because of happenstance was Jane Goodall dead the next week. That would have been a great clip for the show. So we really got fucked there.

 

Louis Virtel She turned out to be a real asshole, don’t worry.

 

Jon Lovett You know what we didn’t talk about is Jack Nicholson.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, still with us. Yeah. No, I mean it’s like sorry to bring him up. I didn’t expect Gene Hackman to pass away when he did, you know.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah. Oh, that was a sad end.

 

Louis Virtel Though I will say I think Jack Nicholson is very well appreciated. I think you can hardly run across a film podcast where like the boys aren’t talking about their favorite Jack Nicholson.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes I feel bad that like like could I talk about Heat endlessly? Could if you just said to me, Hey, we gotta do a quick three hours on the film Heat, I’m in. I could go for I go for endlessly about the movie Heat. White guy film history, I’m in.

 

Louis Virtel Well, you know, the greatest entry in that genre is the talented Mr. Ribley.

 

Jon Lovett See, I guess. I mean it’s sort of you’re not going to be able to do

 

Louis Virtel You don’t want me to throttle you on camera, do you? Go ahead. Do your diary. Never mind.

 

Jon Lovett That’s that’s such a perfect thing for you to say because like why did I find Bunny Mellon on on Sex in the City so captivating? ‘Cause you’re gay. Why did your brain go to talented map really? ‘Cause you’re gay. That’s true.

 

Louis Virtel I’m also like, you know, cool. That’s our show. Thank you, Jon Lovett.

 

Jon Lovett Thank you, Louis!

 

Louis Virtel Where can people fucking find you?

 

Jon Lovett Oh my yeah.

 

Louis Virtel I keep trying to find you.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, but yeah, everybody, do me a favor, subscribe to the Pod Save America YouTube. Subscribe to the Lovett or Leave It YouTube. Subscribe to the Keep It YouTube if you haven’t yet. We are building an alternative to right wing misinformation and noise, not just about politics, but about everything. We need to get good information to people that requires subscribing. They have a whole infrastructure behind them. We need an alternative, not just to the right, but to mainstream media that is capitulating. And we’re trying to build something like that here at Crooked every day. We’re trying to do it not just for politics, but for all kinds of shows for people that don’t pay attention to politics, including great shows like Keep It. So subscribe to our stuff. It really does help us.

 

Louis Virtel And I am such a fan of being a p a part of this network, even as a militant right centrist.

 

Jon Lovett Yeah, no, yeah, you’re constantly talking about how we need a purple party. Yeah. That’s what you’re always saying.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you to the fabulous Jon Levit for being here. Thank you to the fabulous Kyle MacLachlan. We will see you next week. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Keep it as a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Bill McGrath. Our associate producer is Kennedy Hill, and our executive producers are Louis Virtel, Ira Madison III, and Kendra James. Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gajweski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centeno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week. Our head of production is Matt DeGroot. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.