Hosts gather for a post-election reflection episode. Myles interviews author Brit Barron about her new book Do You Still Talk to Grandma?.

 

Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. On this episode it’s me, Kaya, Myles, and De’Ara. In this one we’re just processing what just happened with the election. It’s a very different episode than last week because we thought we were in the clear. And here we are. So this is the election debrief episode. And then Myles sits down with author Brit Barron about her new book, Do you still talk to Grandma? Here we go. Here for the election debrief episode. There’s a lot going on, and this is DeRay at @deray on Twitter. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m Kaya Henderson at @HendersonKaya on Twitter. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: And I’m De’Ara Balenger at @dearabalenger on Instagram. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Let me just say, I’ve been thinking about the recording of this episode because when I played back our last episode, we were like hopeful. And we were like, oh my goodness and da da da da da. It was a rah rah episode. And then the election results were not quite rah rah. And, you know, I think the side by side of these two episodes will be something to study. I’ve been thinking a lot about how different the tone is, but let’s just start with what’s on your mind as we reflect on the election results. How are you feeling? Shout out to Myles. Uh. What are you what are you all thinking? [laughter] Who wants to start? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I’ll start first.

 

Kaya Henderson: Myles wants to start. Oh.

 

De’Ara Balenger: Oh go ahead. [banter] Oh do you want to start, Myles? You want, set us up.

 

Myles E. Johnson: No you you, I was letting the the black women go first. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Oh. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Because I feel like this is hitting the I mean, obviously, I’m disappointed and I have thoughts, but I feel like the layer of disappointment that is hitting Black women because they didn’t get there I don’t you know, I’m big on cultural moments. Didn’t get that cultural moment of seeing a Black woman president. I just want to give you all this space to curse whoever you need to curse out. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Um. You know, I’ve been thinking about. First of all, like I think, you know, to the to the feeling part of it all, I think, you know, I’m still sort of in this journey of navigating grief since my dad. And so I think I had my mom talks about building a container of care for yourself. And so I think I’ve been so good at building and really fortifying that container. I think with the results I’m able to like process it and have clarity around it. And, you know, and there’s like anger and disappointment and resentment and all that there. But most of all, I think what it’s allowed me to do is sort of like actually, which is a hard thing for me to do as a Black woman is sort of like center myself in it. And even my lens of reflection is like me. Um. And so I was with my my trainer last week and I was like, you know, I’m 0 for three. I’ve worked on three presidentials. I’ve lost the three of them. But each time the candidate’s been a woman, Hillary Clinton, of course, twice. And he’s like, well, how many women have run for president? And I’m like, well on the dem side it’s just been four. Shirley Chisholm being first. And he was like, so out of the four times a woman has run, you’ve worked on three of those campaigns? And I was like. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Come on, history maker. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yes, I have. And so I think looking at it like that and also just like my belief in women’s leadership and my belief in in actually seeing seeing like sort of this getting towards a world that so many believe is impossible. But I just I think as I looked at that, I just I have to be proud of my contribution, but also what that has meant for other Black women. And each time I’m in a space making sure that there are more and more Black women that can actually sort of work and have influence on these campaigns. Um. And I think the absence of the Black women actually in leadership positions in these campaigns is like why we ultimately lose them. Um. But that’s sort of how I’ve been looking at that and reflecting on it to start. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m very grateful for anger and for rage today. And when I tell you after I saw the results, I was afraid that I was not going to be going to be able to locate rage and anger, because this election has been really, really strange for me. It’s the first election of of my 30s. I can’t situate this election without kind of situating myself because I think we bring our whole selves to politics. So this is the first election of my 30’s and I remember and I expressed some things on even on this podcast to other friends, um other people of just varying degrees of influence and and not influence. But I remember saying this, they’re not doing this right. This is not this is this is not hitting. And I’m feeling like a disconnect. I remember one of the things that echoed in my mind from last episode, I have not dared relisten to the whole thing because I’m not a horror movie fan. Um. [laugh] But I remember one of the things that um DeRay had asked me was, like do think you’re the majority? Do you think that [?] and I was like, I think I’m a silent majority. I think that I’m seeing again, I use words like erosion, depression in the culture, disconnection, um stratification because of class, all these different words. And I tricked, but I always knew that there was a chance of it because it just was it just I just knew. But I silenced myself. And I kind of thought that other people’s age, wisdom, and expertise was better than my own. And I think that is for everybody. I don’t care if you are friends with people or whatever. I don’t care if you just thought you just uh agree with James Carville and you’re like, well, James Carville must know more than me because he James Carville, I don’t care who you are. I think that a lot of people have specifically on the left have grown even in anger to really believe their own voice. Because I think a lot of people felt and saw gaps, but I think everybody wanted to be um I saw somebody say called it like on code, like everybody wanted to be on code. Everybody wanted to um not do anything to sabotage Vice President Harris’s chances. And I don’t know, like I just really when I saw the results of the election, I thought that I was just going to be able to be cynical and and be like, you know what? Here’s what the elitistism and the stratification gets us. What, you know, here it is. But luckily, I woke up this morning with this little fire in my stomach and I said anger. Hello, Anger, my old friend. Okay, I can do something with this. I could always curse somebody out. A very boring podcast and life is to just be cynical and hopeless and look backwards. So I’m grateful for my anger and I’m sure throughout this whole year and how long, you know, throughout this podcast we’ll be saying just we’ll be pointing out different flaws that happen politically throughout this year, I’m sure with, with the left so. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: And Myles, that like what you’re saying is so on the nose for me because you know. With my business, for example. And we work across so many different industries doing social impact work and cultural strategy work. And, you know, when there are times I come across an individual in my client work that isn’t impressive to me and that is presenting ideas that I know are nonsensical, I immediately push back and say, let’s move us in this direction, right? But in Democratic politics, what I’ve experienced is that somehow my sense, I don’t know where my sense goes because I’m having people who are not impressive, who have not had lives outside of Washington, D.C., say things to me and I say, well, you know what? They must know better than me. They must be relying on this magical data. They must this this whole apparatus, they are sort of controlling and maneuvering. So, me saying things like, no, I don’t think we should have Morehouse band because and you know, I love Morehouse. I love y’all. But that’s not the band I would go with if I was going to go for an HBCU band. But me having to explain that to white folks where I have to be, where I have to come from a point of deference is nonsensical, right? But that’s what it is for me in this body. That’s what it’s been in the three campaigns that I’ve worked on, where it’s I see people that I’m like, like in my normal, everyday professional life, I’d be like, why am I listening to you? You don’t know anything and you don’t know anybody. You know. So, Myles, I think what you’re saying around sort of this culture we have around these campaigns and how somehow there’s like six people at the top that become experts. And that then sort of are dictating to everyone else how this thing is going to go is kind of a crazy, wild, nonsensical culture. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: But specifically, when we look at it and it appears as if they are so ill equipped. Like, you know, I get the polls and the exit polls and the da da da polls, but I’m like, where where does, listen, going going on YouTube and figuring out what the temperature is culturally and looking at somebody who has 300 views and somebody who has three million views and seeing what the conversations are, that is real work, you know, and then going out and relating that to what you’re feeling, not just in, you know, big cities, but what’s going on in home towns and ghettos and what the working class feels, that’s real work. And then seeing, you know, watching somebody who’s on the far right but they’re Black and they only got 50 views and you’re like, this person’s weird, but then you then you see them in one month, get one million views, and then you look at it and then you go and go back to the people who are commenting. And then you see these are actual Black people who actually have Instagram stories. So these aren’t bots. Like that’s real work. And if that’s not integrated, if diverse media intake, if these things are not integrated, I’m just like, well, again it was it was the Lizzo and the Jennifer Lopez of it all. I’m like, do you not know what these people are wrapped up into and how what the narrative is about them right now? Do you not see Diddy happening and the vote or die and the baby– Democrats drinking baby blood and all this other stuff? And then you bring some people who are really close to a nigga who might be drinking baby’s blood and you bring him on to advocate? It’s a little wild. So it’s a it’s a it’s a it was just showing a huge disconnect and I’m like, it felt Twilight Zone-ish sometimes. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm.

 

Kaya Henderson: This has been a week of a wide range of feelings for me, um I think. You know, at first I was disappointed for sure, and I kind of beat myself up for hoping against hope. I feel like um, you know, I sort of knew in my gut that this probably was not going to happen, but I was like, no, no, Kaya, you got to manifest. We were all manifesting last week, right? And and putting it out into the universe and whatnot. And I’m not mad at myself for that. Like, if I ever get to a point where I am not hoping against hope, then something is wrong with me. Other people can be cynical, that’s their thing. That’s not who I am. Um. And so I had to give myself a little grace and remember that, like, hope actually matters a lot to me. So I had to come around a little bit on that. Um. I also, um like many Black women, were like, bump this, taking my marbles, going home, only doing work for me and mine. Y’all got this I like miss me with it. Stop texting me. Talking about thinking about you. Don’t think about me. Think about your country and y’all better save it. Um. And was deeply, deeply in that place. I am still somewhat there, um if I’m totally honest. Um. But I also and and and I watched like Black women come together in this moment in ways like I have if you not on threads. Threads is owned by a Black women right now um and Black women supporting each other, black women following each other like there is a collective moment in Black womanhood that is happening that I think is going to birth something big because we’ve been so busy trying to save everybody else. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Everybody else. 

 

Kaya Henderson: [laughing] That like we have not been saving ourselves. And I mean, we’re saving ourselves and our community while at the same time trying to save the country, trying to save the Democratic Party, trying to do all the things, trying to be kumbayah. And Black women are like deuces folks, me and mine. And I’m actually excited by what might happen when we do center ourselves because I think Black women build communities. And for me, the real question of this election is do we keep on trying to mess with the existing system, which was not built for us, was not designed by us, cannot work for us, or do we go create something completely and totally different? And so I went from like angry and disappointed to I’m Black and fabulous. I went to get my nails done the next day and got me a cute little design. Can y’all see my pretty design? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: It is very cute. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And then I my, my my lovely wealthy Black friend has a boat. And he was like, let’s go on the boat and let’s just, you know, sail our fears away. And I was like, cool. There is nothing more Black than a group of Black people on a boat blasting Go-Go music. As we as we sailed through the pristine canals of Annapolis, Maryland, um where all the white folks were looking at us like what is going on over there. We joyful and we free. I know you think that we supposed to be depressed today, but we got each other. And then I went to a basketball game to scream my head off and got my anger and my rage out and my team won. And that was beautiful. And then that night, I was like, okay, what can we create? And I am thinking a lot about like, systems and how we create systems that are designed for us. Because I don’t these people don’t want me. It’s okay, no problem. But look, I go back to Reconstruction. When left to our own devices, we built systems and societies and companies and communities and and I’m ready to build right now. I’m really ready to build like I feel my brain is on fire. I have, like, written so much this weekend. I went on a beautiful retreat in the Hudson Valley, except for the wildfires. Um. But and I have been writing and thinking and like I got [single clap] 250 ideas that just will not quit because I am free. I’m free from having to work within the system. I’m free from having to play around with this stuff that is not playing around with me. I get to create something completely different. So I am like this for me is a moment of, oddly enough, it is a moment of like intense creativity and possibility. Um. And so, yeah, it was not what I was expecting, but that is where I am right now. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Boom um. I have a lot of short thoughts. The organizer me is reminded that whoever wins aunts and uncles wins. I think we lost aunts and uncles. Like I think we just like missed it. Um. Black people showed up. So shout out to Black people for all the drama. Black men, God and da da da. Black people showed–

 

Kaya Henderson: Yay Black men. Yay Black men.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Black women showed up. Black Black–

 

Kaya Henderson: Always do.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Black women uh led us. Black men were only what, like a percentage point off of where they were last time. So for all of the drama, but we need to talk about voter turnout but in terms of like the numbers, Black people did it shout out to Black people. Um. I do, you know it’s funny. I, at work we talk about whoever wins aunts and uncles wins. And I’ll tell you, I called my father probably a month ago because we were doing something at work and I was like, Daddy, when you hear school to prison pipeline, what do you hear? And I love my father. He started saying stuff that has nothing to do with what we call the school to prison pipeline. He’s like, he’s like, DeRay, you know, schools are hard. Da da da and the I’m like, what? But it was like a good reality check for me. I’m like, when we say school to prison pipeline in the work, it means something all in the general vicinity to us. My father is a voter and connected, believes, and when he hears it he is just pulling things out of thin air like shout out to Calvin. And I think there was a lot of stuff this election that I think we took for granted that people didn’t understand. And not that, you know, Trump is crazy, rapist, felonies, all that stuff. And I think some of the things that we were trying to push were right. They were the right things and nobody understood them. [laugh] And I think there’s a part of like how we talk to people that we do need to forget the party, but just the left has to figure out how to do it. My message to organizers is make the big demands. But if you don’t teach while you demand, you lose. And I think that there’s a lot of stuff that like, we forgot how to teach and demand. And I think that’s like it. Uh like De’Ara De’Ara has been on the inside much longer than me. I was on the DNC transition team with Tom Perez, and I’ll never forget sitting in that room being like, these people don’t get it. I made one comment. Somebody said something real slick to me and in that moment I was like, either we just going to fight in the middle of this room or I’m just going to be quiet and keep it moving. And I’m already fighting the police, so I’m not trying to fight this woman who is convincing me that we’ve already figured out Black people and young people and da da. And I was like, you can have it. Like I’m I’m already fighting a lot of people. I’m not doing it in this room. And I think that the more that those rooms sort of be like that, I think that we’ll be stuck in these positions where you have all these people with a lot of power, very disconnected. And um, you know, I think that’s a, I’m not as worried about the celebrities. I’m you know, I have some really good friends and including on this podcast who think that we overdid it with the celebrities. I sort of get the celebrity thing. I do think what we didn’t get with the celebrities is that they knew no content. So it really just felt like vote for my homegirl. And I think that doesn’t work. But some of the stuff around like, you know, housing or that you know, I remember when Cardi did that Instagram live, not with the election being like y’all the grocery price is just too high. Like she did that whole. She was like, I went to the grocery store. She was like, the eggs cost, like, that is the type of content that I do think everybody gets. They’re like, y’all, this is some of the stuff is too high um anyway. That content, the content around the content. I think we also need to figure out, I will say my best friend, I was talking to him about voter ID and he watched Candace Owens on YouTube have a conversation with somebody on voter ID. YouTube is new to me. So he, we on the phone and he says, DeRay I think it’s a small ask that people bring their IDs. And I’m like, well, voter I.D. is bad. And he’s like, But I just watched this whole thing. And, you know, the guy who was talking to Candace couldn’t really defend it. Like I, he was like, I don’t think it’s a crazy thing to ask to bring an I.D. And I was like, you know, you need to have an I.D. when you’ve registered to vote. There are different ways to verify who you are at the polling place. Like when I go vote in Baltimore, I have to do name, birthday, and address. And he was like, oh I didn’t know that. I just thought, you just walk in and you just say who you are and you get to vote because that’s the way Candace talked about it. And I’m like that. You know, he was easily persuadable, but he had watched a video and the person sort of defending or the person arguing against voter ID was just like it was bad. And I think that that era of like the moral argument is the argument, I don’t think that works for us anymore. So I do want us to figure that out. And the last thing I’ll say is that I think this is a reminder of the death of all politics is local. I think the idea makes sense to me. But I think the reality is like, you know, the president matters, the federal government matters. And I think about it like, what does it mean to hire a coach um versus hiring like the person making all the decisions? So I’m interested in what that looks like. Um. But whew, maybe he goes to jail? You know, he’s going to get sentenced in New York City in November. [laughter] Maybe he’s in jail. I think you know, I, nothing’s impossible. So I’m just like, you know, let’s figure it out. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: DeRay is my like water sign sibling. Because when I tell you we are always prepared for a miracle, I’m like, I’m prepared for what the reality is. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: But if Jesus want to come down and say, not that orange nigga I’m here for it. [laughter]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah.. Maybe he’s going to jail. Maybe, you know, we got a long road to January. It’s a long way we got a couple, we have a long time to go. [music break] Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: [AD BREAK]

 

Kaya Henderson: This is my question, right? Like the one thing that I will not I mean, I have a lot of thoughts, but one of my thoughts post this election is like those people broke all the rules and they won. Right. And what would it look like for the Dems to break the rules between now and whatever, January 6th or January 20th or whatever it is? Like why couldn’t, could I. I mean, if I was president, I would have an executive order coming out for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day. Like pay everybody’s student debt. Like, what can we do, De’Ara? What could he do if he was like, bump it, I’m going balls to the wall and I don’t I don’t want him to, like, make her the 47th president to mess up the T-shirts or whatever, that’s dumb. I’m talking real stuff. Like, what could he do? What could they do in the next 70 days or so that are just like, F it, boom, let’s blow this whole thing up. It’s blowing up. So let’s go. Let’s make it blow up for us. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But you have to remember. 

 

Kaya Henderson: What did I, they don’t remember nothing.

 

De’Ara Balenger: I say this I say this with respect. 

 

Kaya Henderson: What they’ve got to remember? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But the Biden administration, whom is, they’re still in delulu land, are singularly focused on Joe Biden’s legacy. 

 

Kaya Henderson: They’ve got to. Well. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Y’all. 

 

Kaya Henderson: This would be a legacy move! 

 

De’Ara Balenger: We we don’t. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Come on with me! 

 

De’Ara Balenger: We don’t care. We don’t. We don’t. And I think part of part of the reckoning around all this is like. Y’all I’ve been doing this a long time and I have a great deal of respect for a lot of sort of the infrastructure in like how these campaigns are done, how we like. One of the things that has been most shocking to me about working on the campaign is what has happened to our advance team. So for folks that don’t know, an advance team is almost like sort of like an event team, right? But like times 100, because they’re working with Secret Service to make sure that the candidate is safe. They’re working to make sure that there’s crowd control and everybody in the crowd is safe if like it is if you are on the advance team. It is a very, very prestigious job in Democratic politics. My experience on this campaign, the advance teams were so, it was an indication to me that something’s wrong with how we’re operating. Like molecularly. Like there’s also, to me, sort of a loss of decorum and centering of people on our side. So much has become about the worship of an individual candidate and that candidate’s sort of circle that we are forgetting our values, our values and how we treat one another as colleagues, our values around our our commitment and what we’re owed to the people. Knowing who the people are, knowing that. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That part. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Knowing that. So I think part of it. DeRay, to the celebrity part of it. I actually was very proud of like Cardi and Gorilla and Flo, like having women that are in conversation with everyday Black women was very important to me. And it also like that sort of would have never been done if our candidate was not Kamala Harris. Like, I know that for sure. But this whole apparatus, like the entire thing, from our party chair. Jamie Harrison. No disrespect. But, like what is going–

 

Kaya Henderson: You lost South Carolina, but you should lead the party.

 

De’Ara Balenger: What is going on? Is it ego? Is it you’re scared you can do something else outside of this world? Like, I’m happy to start a nonprofit that just helps you all find jobs so y’all can get out of the way. [laugh] I had somebody say to me during the campaign, we’re booking all of these concerts and, you know, because it was it it was a big undertaking. I had somebody like a Biden person say to me, imagine if we were all professionals doing this. I am a professional. I do culture work every single day. That’s what I do. I am a professional. I don’t know what your usual job is at the White House. But these Black people over here on this on my team. We are professionals. But that’s the thing. The fact that we actually don’t have there’s not a mentality to get the best and brightest for a job. The mentality is we get the most loyal person for the job. 

 

Kaya Henderson: So here’s a question, right? Like usually after something blows up once or twice or three times. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Three times. [laughter]

 

Kaya Henderson: You would say we need a different strategy. And I actually feel like um I like I deeply believe in young people. I believe that like, it is time. I believe in women’s leadership. I believe a lot in youth leadership. And like, why would we not? One of the most galling things to me post-election was Bernie old ass Sanders getting on the TV and wagging his finger about what the Dems didn’t do. Bernie, you’re an independent. Can you just leave us alone? You your world is whatever. Go somewhere, do that thing, like this is a distraction. What would it take for us to literally wipe the whole slate clean and say, look, let’s just give it to the young people? We got to do something different. Like the old people don’t get another chance. Like, let’s just give it to a bunch of young people and let them have at it. Could that happen? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I mean.

 

Myles E. Johnson: Well I saw that Kamala HQ, oh sorry. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: No go ahead. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I was like, I saw that Kamala HQ post and those looked like the young people too. So I don’t I don’t know. I don’t.

 

Kaya Henderson: Not exactly those young people. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. I was like, I was like I don’t know if it’s just like a youth thing. And even when I was um thinking about what DeRay was saying around the aunts and uncles and I think you just don’t fail this spectacularly  without a lot of different things happening wrong at one time. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm mm hmm. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So like, I think trying to like trying to chisel it down to one thing, but I do think it’s worth mentioning that I believe the numbers are. Trump won with less than he lost with. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And then when you look at the demographics of who he lost with, those aren’t aunts and uncles. A lot of people. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: They were young. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: There were a lot of people that he lost with were people from the ages of 18 to 29, they were people who who did not go to college. People who are working class people. So one of the one of the reasons why I really do push this, the celebrity portion. Um. Right, is because I’m really God knows I’m trying to be like less heady about how I explain this, but how middle class and upper middle class Black people and college educated Black people interact with rap is very different. So a lot of times people interact with GloRilla and Meg thee stallion who are not from their backgrounds or whatever as icons of their own feminism because right, because of what we consume is who we are. So they, they listen to GloRilla talk about stuff just it’s it’s it mirrors the white boys who listen to gangsta rap. And because they’re because this is a um a token of their masculinity or their danger. So when you when you’re really interacting with people who are of these backgrounds, it appears to them as it, I’m trying to think of a simpler way to say this. Megan Thee stallion, GloRilla, Lizzo. That is a lot of Black people’s Hulk Hogans. And just like most white people are like what do, he lost with white people. He’s like, I don’t care about no Hulk Hogan. I don’t care about that. I don’t. I don’t That doesn’t matter to me. What do I care about that? That’s how a lot of these Black working class people feel, a lot of our affection for these people and a lot of the affection that we feel on the Internet or in concert for these people is a is a is is does not communicate across class boundaries and across and across experiences and making that the sole way that we are interacting with these people hurts. I don’t agree. I’m not a Bernie sibling bro whatever you the fuck you will call me. I’m not that person. But I’m like he was on to something. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Because if you look at the people who didn’t show up, that is the key demographic that he did lose. And he and he did not just lose white people. White people did not just say, you know what, it’s KKK time. There is there is some there’s something culturally disconnected. And I and I bring it to the celebrity. Because it’s such the glaring thing, it’s the glaring thing is to what interacts with people the most. It’s what–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –what makes people say it’s elitist, is what makes people say it’s disconnected. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But Myles. I will say and not to interrupt you just because I was there, I was in Milwaukee. And the people that came to that rally to see GloRilla and Flo Milli and Cardi B were majority Black women. And I’m not going to sort of put a judgment on by looking at somebody what their what their–

 

Myles E. Johnson: When we don’t know. We don’t know their income.

 

De’Ara Balenger: What their background background was. But I felt at home, which led me to believe that it was the mix of my aunties who some aunties I take to stuff and some aunties I do not. And that’s how I felt in Milwaukee. That’s how I felt in Houston, when I was in Houston, Texas. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But the point is that, I mean, Black people showed up, right? Like we reached we reached some Black people. We reached 92% of Black women and whatever, whatever. And for me, the question is like, what is the larger message that didn’t resonate with your Latino cousins De’Ara? With poor white people, like what is the– 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But Kaya I but I guess my point is that it wouldn’t have mattered what she said. I don’t I don’t know y’all. I just feel like it something’s happened to me. And maybe I’m like, coming into my hotep era where I’m just like, I don’t–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Welcome. [laughter] There are bean pies by the coffee my sister. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh my God, get me out of here. I will say um, Myles, to the point around the aunts and uncles, I actually think that that affirms what I’m saying. It doesn’t um it doesn’t it doesn’t negate it. And I again, proudly called, I’m one of the aunts and uncles actually like I have two. Um. My my nephew is 13 years old now. And it has it has changed the way that I think about the world a little bit. So I’ve been an uncle for since my late 20s. But I say this to say that like, you know, I’m thinking about not only making sure that our people vote, but trying to think about who they call when they have questions, who they get advice from, who gets them to vote. Just like, you got to go. And I do think there’s a, that is an uncle, aunt and uncle thing to me. So when I think about the work that I did just demystifies some of the stuff, people are like I saw a YouTube da da da and I’m like, ah! [making sounds of protest] Like I, you know, Candace did that. But like, she was wrong or da da da.  Like I do think that is like a narrative thing. And to be clear, you know, a lot of people just didn’t vote like that is a our side thing we got to. Like not only did people vote for him, but, you know, fewer people voted on our side. And that is not only attributable to voter ID and voter suppression, though, you know, in Georgia, calling the police 40 times in Black neighborhoods at the polling sites is also crazy and a thing that happened. So um so I do think that’s true. And I think that they exploited you know, I’m interested to see what we say about this. Kaya, to your point about the Latinos, that is fascinating to me. But also the right did a really good job of exploiting niche cultural things that became lightning rods for people I know, like the trans issue goes from being a thing that is really seven people. Like it’s not this is not a national anything, it’s not an emergency. It’s not a it costs $10. You know, like even if they did everything, every reassignment surgery in prison, it was two people, you know, like. But he the [?] I one of my friends went to Georgia and was like, DeRay, I really did not appreciate how much that Charlamagne ad ran on the news until I was here. He was just like, it is literally, you can’t escape it. He was like, I saw it on Twitter and thought it was a random thing. He’s like– 

 

Kaya Henderson: All over Arizona, North Carolina. That was the ad that was running. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: He was like, this is doing numbers, you know, And it’s that sort of stuff that like. We did not have a game plan for. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: This is a campaign that got set up in two months. And. One I like. I think we have to have some perspective around that. Right? Like I think and also like I feel like as a human being, this woman did work as hard as she could. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, yeah. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Okay. Like, I just I want to say that out loud. But the disinterest we were basically having to overcome the disinterest and the lack of trust with the Biden administration, which she was a part of, that had lasted for four years. Like I think somebody told me that um, no somebody told me that the day before the election, the most Googled thing, one of the most Googled things was, is Joe Biden on the ballot? Or is like Joe Biden [laugh] running for president still? Like, I think there’s still like such a disinterest that even the announcement of her candidacy wasn’t sort of an excitable moment for people, so much so where they could get over so whatever their lack of sort of accomplishment or trust was with the Biden administration. So I think it was I don’t yes, it’s the right was better at la la la la la la la. But I guess I’m sort of losing my point, but I guess it’s I think there there just has to be some honesty around what this administration wasn’t able to communicate to the American people and whatever sort of point of need they were, they were in. We just weren’t good. We haven’t been good at doing that for a very long time. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Let’s transition to talk about what comes. I’ll let you go, Myles, but let me just introduce a pivot is um what comes next? So people have been talking about the like, you know, that that the resistance will look different this time. There was a call for a women’s march in January that went online. And people’s response to that has been very different than the call for the Women’s March. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah, get out of here. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: The first go round there was, you know, I remember being at the Javits Center and reporters were calling me being like, DeRay, what are you doing? What’s the plan? Da da da. That even energy feels very different this go around. The ACLU put out that full page ad being like, we’ll fight you uh Trump. And people’s even response to that was like, what does this even mean? So what do you think comes um what do you think comes next? Especially as we are trying to still figure out who’s going to control the House, which seems to be, as of today, an open question. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Is it?

 

Myles E. Johnson: Can I– 

 

Kaya Henderson: Sorry go ahead Myles. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Can I start, I was going to ask if I can start in reverse to the trans thing and connect it to this? Um. So I do think that we have to remember that it’s like that’s always been the Republican’s playbook, right? Right. You know, from New York Post and Cindy Adams her propaganda with um with Donald Trump. When you think about Rush Limbaugh, when it comes to just guns, gays and um what is it? Guns, gays, and God that the Republicans have not evolved, they actually have have have learned how to stay uninvolved, to stay politically stillwater in a vastly progressive world. And they’re able to still capture the imaginations of people who still have those three g’s at the core of what they vote for. And when you and I believe it was like I think I was listening to Nancy Pelosi in the New York Times uh talk about they got the God with the abortions, they got the gun, they got the guns because of the school shootings. And the and the and when it um and the resistance between school shootings. And then, of course, the gay thing is under umbrellaed by this like trans issue, I again, everything to me goes back to the left because I’m like in my head, why is the first trans person that somebody who would vote Democrat in North Carolina interacting with in media Caitlyn Jenner? Or or or somebody like that? Like, why is there not a more organized effort to create culture on the left? You know, and to me, the left is really obsessed with creating icons in the Obama but but not the Obama or excuse me, they’re interested in creating icons like Obama and Biden, but not culture. And to me, that is the failure is of the culture. That’s how Republicans have always played their game. They have always said, we’re actually going to fuck you financially, but we know that you care about these things morally so much that we can get you to get to the poll to vote on this as we make you poorer in the background because these are such hot button issues. And that’s been their playbook for forever. It’s not new. It’s not sophisticated. It’s not advanced. Um. So from my point of view, as somebody who loves culture, loves art, who is an artist, I would like for the moving forward to look like, I look, I don’t understand well I do. No, excuse me. I do understand why Vice President Harris has not been seen since the election. But I really hope that Vice President Harris or whoever gets popular. I don’t understand this throwaway thing. I’m like, make sure if you don’t know her, how are you going to know her? Trump did not win his first go around? He just didn’t. He was on View getting made he was on The View, getting made fun of like ten years before he ran for president when he was running the for the first time. And he kept on going and kept on being familiar. So now that we have introduced somebody like Kamala, I don’t even think that um. I don’t think that just ridding saying, okay, well, you’re done. You didn’t work is the way to go. And I hope that we just integrate more people into the cultural sphere who can normalize honestly these identities. Because all, the last thing that I’ll say is that also the trans thing was arc– it was was was architecture. It was built, it was what is the thing that can that can be the lightning rod? And they created it and they made the stories and they said, Megan Kelly say it’s ridiculous. Candace Owens say it’s ridiculous. Joe Rogan and they turned it into that. And I don’t understand how we don’t have better barriers to that. Like little, little things like, I love that Marc Lamont Hill. Marc Lamont Hill is on Joe [?] powercast. But I think that kind of diversity in voices and platforms has to happen, has to happen because it’s looking like trans stuff and gay shit is just this weird elite white people stuff that every now and then somebody goes to jail for a rico charge because they got baby oil and they freaky like and that that they’re just doing it in Hollywood Hills. It has to be these stuff has to be grounded or are you going to be looking or unless that the goal plan is just for trans people and anybody else who’s not in a flannel shirt and white to shut up because they might lose a vote. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I generally agree with that. My only push would be I don’t I think it was constructive. I also think people are deeply transphobic and and they tapped into that. Like I don’t think that was manufactured. I think that what they did do that was strategically worked for them and amplified the transphobia was a focus on sports, for instance. But I think there are a lot of people who actually were transphobic. And I think that like they made that a wedge issue and we did not really have, I you know, I think we just were like, that’s transphobic. And I think that doesn’t work for a lot of people. And I say that as people that I’m sort of being like, Y’all, come on. Like, like, that’s not cool. Um.

 

De’Ara Balenger: But I think the other part of it is like we we also allow these campaigns to sort of tell us what our identities are or to tell us how what identity box we ought to fit in. Which is a wild thing, right? So it’s like Black voters for Kamala. Gay voters for Kamala, like these sort of affinity groups that sort of break us up and sort of are the antithesis of intersectionality, how we’re all living in our day to day life and again, how we’re living in our professional lives with our communities and it and somehow these campaigns. And DeRay even interesting to have, see your like your sort of take as an organizer. It’s like a lot of the things, a lot of the ways these campaigns are organizing aren’t really true to how people are in community. And not only that, they’re not they’re sort of not innovating to get us to like a future focused way around being in community and being in a multi multiracial community. I might add. Right. It’s sort of like we’re going to run ten, ten sub campaigns over this big campaign under this umbrella as opposed to like really understanding for Black women, for example. This and I and I always talk about this. I’m like the for the, no, I don’t understand why Black women have not been studied as a demographic. Like, why is it that this demographic continues to vote for in presidential elections over 90% every single time? Is there something that could be gleaned from that? Is there something that can inform our organizing? Is there something that can inform how we’re organizing other groups? It’s just I guess what I’m sitting with is like, I’m such I’m such a person that is always pushing back and trying to push forward that somehow in this in this apparatus, it’s so wrong for so many reasons and not innovative and not creative and doesn’t feel good sometimes and we just allow it. Sorry. That was a soapbox. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: What do you make of the the numbers? You know, I’ve seen people, people that we all know actually sort of say and I’ll focus on race after this, is misguided and that we are not served well by disaggregating the numbers and talking about white women not supporting or um yeah, that like that actually is divisive to the left. Not unifying is a is something I saw more this time than I ever saw the last time. What’s your take on that? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I think I think how it’s prioritized is the issue. Right? Because there’s a hierarchy in these in these campaigns on how much money is spent to which group, how how much time the candidate gets with that group’s leaders, etc., etc.. So I think what often happens is and we’ve talked about this too, where this like sort of mythical middle of the road Midwestern voter gets so much of the oxygen as opposed to the base, the Democratic base, which is working class people, where are they? Do people in the Democratic Party leadership know working class people? And and and Black, Brown, I just feel like these folks can’t be an afterthought. And I think that’s how these campaigns have been working. So it’s like I’m I’m I’m fine with us talking about. I’m not fine with us talking about race less, I guess, ever. But um [laugh] I think in how we talk about it and who is prioritized is the is the key issue. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m still really interested in this um in this 18 to 29 year old fall off. You know, like I’m I’m I’m really interested in that. And I totally get not paying attention to to race. But I think you would just be silly not to. And I hear everybody talking about it. But if I’m being honest with you, the only people I see really taking that seriously are are are liberal white people who got us into this mess in the first place. Is when I–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Big time. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: When I really see when I [?] when I–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Big time. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –really see about it. And I’m like, you’re over here talking about we need to appeal to them. We need to appeal to them. I’m like, you’re going to have to do an Amazon Apple sponsor Nazi Party to appeal to the people who are lost at this Trump thing. And if you’re Black, you know that. And if you’re a white liberal, you still have hope. And you think you could put a flannel shirt on your shit and the people are going to come to you, it’s not going to happen. So you have to talk about race because how it manifests is different in everybody. Our problem as a human beings who are engaging with this, in my opinion, is that we see race as a binary thing. So oh white supremacy bad, white people do it. But we are seeing with these results that it manifests differently in everybody. White supremacy manifests differently in every single person that vote. That’s what these results are showing. You don’t just forget about race or discour– discourage it. And then the last thing I’ll say around this is that also the politics are learning what the music industry learned. And this is a little tinfoil hat, a little just polls and stuff like that. I think that Democrats also reverse, reverse engineered their victory too soon. I think that because of the identity politics that um that Democrats often play into, they made it appear as if the election was got by this demographic. And I think the message, no matter what was verbally said, the message was that this has pissed off all women, including those white women. And–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yup. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think that that also gave a lot of people this time to sit down because last time it was, oh my goodness, Black women saved us. And then when um Kamala was running, it was like, oh my goodness, white women got as or um or oh you’re really going down now because of abortion rights. And it turns out that didn’t happen. So I think that just like when certain rappers who are really popular on Instagram and have all these viral moments go to put their ticket sales up, or when certain pop stars go look at them album sales, and they’re like, wait, hold on, these likes are and this and this and this fever or this what I got people to come to when it was free is not communicating to the polls. I think that’s a that’s a thing, too. Specifically. Again, specifically when I think about the age groups you dropped off in, I’m and the type of people that you dropped off into. I think that that that signaling that she won and that there was a victory really made people lazy. And people react to their imminent or current suffering. Unfortunately, the reason why so many people came out for Biden was because they were sick. People were dying. You needed masks. We need change. And unfortunately it was, they create that victory, the slickness of the Democratic Party and how everything was betrayed made things seem like a shortened Shonda Rhimes written victory and it wasn’t. And they needed to play, we are suffering and we need help and it ain’t looking good the whole way through. But they got and to me it was cocky. I do think that’s part of it. It’s hard to quantify how much that influenced things, but I I my gut is telling me that was a huge part of it. Specifically when I think about how many people just sat home. I think there wasn’t urgency. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: As we wrap this up, let’s go to um this is a question I ask people when I interview them on the pod, but what advice do you have for people going forward? I do think people are looking for advice about how to move forward, what to think about, what does it mean? Um. I’ll start and say my advice to people, especially in the work that I do every day is remember that this if we can push our elected officials at the state level. That you know, when I think about incarceration, most people are incarcerated in states and cities, that police operates in states and cities. They can continue to be models. Shout out to Newsom in California. Wes Moore, these Democratic governors calling on the legislatures to make sure that no matter what the federal government does, we can at least provide a modicum of rights and a social network that people can rely on. So don’t forget that. Like, you know, I think the Trump [?] is going to be crazy. And in states where you have people to push. Keep pushing. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Um I, my two pieces of advice are figure out what we can create in this moment. There’s going to be a lot of things that are destroyed. And I think that we have an opportunity to create completely new and different things. And um we are the most creative people on the planet. And so I’m excited about what that moment brings. And um I am deeply, deeply committed to raising youth leadership. I think um for these young people who thought their vote didn’t count or that it was more important to stay home. I am um excited to figure out how to get them to a different point by giving them leadership opportunities. And um, you know, I think when you look at most real social movements and revolutions in the world, they’ve been led by young people. And so um I’m here for the youngs here I’m an old who is happy to support the youngs in their leadership. However, I can–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Not an old. 

 

Kaya Henderson: –be helpful. Mmm.

 

Myles E. Johnson: [indistinct] an old, you are not. Auntie Kaya be lying to y’all. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m a middle aged. How about that? I’m a middle aged. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, you a you a you a you a young middle at best. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Come on,  nephew. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Um. Well, you know, it’s a new dawn for me. So my days of giving advice and especially free advice are gone. Um. But I will leave folks with something. I think I implore everyone to have a little bit more appreciation for Black women and the Black women in their lives. And I I’m I don’t know I don’t know time or days anymore. But I went to Brooklyn Museum to see Elizabeth Catlett’s exhibit. Um. And Elizabeth Catlett is amazing um sculptor and artist and lived a big part of her life. She’s a Black woman, but lived a big part of her life in Mexico. But she has a series that’s sort of dedicated to something she wrote that I would love to read um, I am the Negro woman. I have always worked hard in America, in the fields, in other folks’ homes. I have given the world my songs. In Sojourner Truth, I fought for the rights of women as well as Negroes. In Harriet Tubman I helped I helped hundreds to freedom. In Phillis Wheatley, I proved intellectual equality in the midst of slavery. My role has been important in the struggle to organize the unorganized. I have studied in ever increasing numbers. My reward has been bars between me and the rest of the land. I have special reservations, special houses, and a special fear for my loved ones. My right is a future of equality with other Americans. So I just want to read that because it’s like, yes, the Black women that are walking on the earth today and our future Black women, but also the so the many, many, many, many that have come before us and are waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting and are tired, tired, tired. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think about The Shining. The Stanley Kubrick movie that um was written by Stephen King. And I think about this maze in The Shining. And any time I watch– 

 

Kaya Henderson: Even before you, even before you say that, can I just say how much I love you? Can I just say [laughter] can I just say how you blow my mind every single time? Every single time. Okay. Tell us The Shining. I’m listening. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I love The Shining for forever. Um. It’s one of my favorite movies and specifically very favorite um horror movies. And if you’re familiar with The Shining, there’s like this maze that is introduced in the beginning of the film and then also introduced at the end of the film. And I mean, it’s almost years and years and years and decades. So plot twist, the kid gets away. But he really had to figure out how to navigate this um huge maze from his like, psychotic uh father who was trying to kill them. And any time I would look at the maze and even as I was like entirely too young, I’m talking like ten, 11, 12, 13, looking at this film, I will always think, oh wow, a way to get out of that maze in my little kid mind is if you can fly, right? And the reason why I offer that to you is because I think that a lot of times when moments like this that are political and intellectual problems happen, we can kind of stay in the maze of what can we do? And what can we configure? And what can happen. And I think we have we sometimes we lose sight that if the goal is to raise consciousness, people are going to be raised out of naturally this uh bad politics. You know, nobody nobody has a raised consciousness and goes for the right. It just doesn’t happen. And I think that as long as that’s at my core and that’s at our core, we’ll figure out ways to go and how that manifests is differently. Obviously, I want to get more into it and help activate more people and more companies I work with, whatever with with being a strong voice and I, there’s companies and, you know, brands and artists that I work with that I that I wish that I could like bridge into political power and to get their voices out because I’m like, oh you have a great audience at Black House Radio, for instance. They they should be plugged into this. This there should be some type of plugging in. So of course I’m going to do stuff like that. But I think my my biggest thing is just don’t fall for the maze. Be the little boy in The Shining and well, don’t be like him because he had to figure out how to get away in the snow and do all that other stuff. But, you know, find your wings. Don’t fall for the maze is is is is how I’m how I’m moving forward. Don’t let this distract you too much. [music break] 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod save the People is coming. 

 

[AD BREAK] 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I got to speak to Brit Barron, a California activist, about her book, Do you still talk to grandma? Now, this is a book that also is a workbook. And we spoke prior to the election, so I want to reiterate that. But the message of her book is beyond timely. It was timely, you know, two weeks ago when we first spoke. And it’s timely now, now that we know the election results, because there are going to be a lot of people who are interacting with people who they’re close to, who they have political disagreements with. And this book really digs into how to confront that and what to do. And I think that she does it really, really beautifully and and directly. There’s even a workbook that comes with it. And as you’ll hear in the conversation, I think sometimes we always think of political differences as in a white family who’s comprised of conservatives and liberals, you know, like a middle class or, you know, multiple classed family. Some people go to college, some people didn’t. Uncles, whatever. And, you know, some people are Trumpers and some people are liberal and etc., etc.. But this really opened this conversation and this book really opened up to how there are so many times that we interact with people who aren’t politically like us, even if we don’t fit that racial makeup, right? So I’m thinking about how many times you might have a Black man or somebody that who goes to the gym with you or somebody who works with you or whatever, who is different than you. But then also how we have people in our who think politically different than you, but then how we also have somebody, have people in our families as racial and sexual and gender minorities who you know, voted Trump or who disagree with us politically or who are moving more to the right. More and more Black people are experiencing this. As you can see with the polls, more and more Black people are experiencing this. More and more Latino folks are experiencing this. So I’m glad we had this conversation because it shows that this is not just a weird middle class white people problem, even though it’s definitely that problem. This is also a problem for uh Black folks and people of color. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. Hi Brit? How are you doing? 

 

Brit Barron: Hi. I’m doing well. How are you? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. I’m doing really well. I’m doing even better because I am very so I love like I love reading books, obviously. Right. But I find myself, there’s a few books that kind of feel like tools that I need in order to really be able to navigate life. And I’m glad to put your book on that list of resources to be able to navigate life. So for the listeners, um Brit Barron wrote a book called Do You Still Talk to Grandma? And it’s exactly how it sounds, it sounds like um and it is a resource. And um and also, I think you just did some really cool kind of like um memoiristic, just delves into your own personal forlay into uh the complicated ways that different political ideas come up at the dinner table. But [laugh] but um essentially, it’s a book about how do you navigate the people who are in your life, who you’re close to, who you do not have these same political ideas around? Um. I guess my first question is what gave you the guts to want to write it down. [laughter] And sell it and sell it publicly? 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. You know what’s so funny is um in the in the very early days of just writing and conceptualizing it, I sent it to a good friend of mine who whose feedback is always like, honest and good. And the first thing she said, she was like, I agreed with a lot of it, but I would never say it out loud. And I was like oh no. What does that mean? But I mean, I found myself in 2021 really sitting back and asking like, what could be on the other side of cancel culture? Like, I understood that we had this like, this big moment and and this this collective experience. And then it started to turn to something else that I just wondered, is this the best way to get to where we want to go? And something I keep saying is I feel like my work, like I exist for liberation. But at the end of the day, something I believe is if everyone can’t come, it’s not really liberation. And so the more and more I felt like I was in these circles that were existed for only people who thought the same, the more I wondered, oh are we doing the work of liberation? And also just acknowledging how painful it was for people in my life trying to navigate, okay I, this is a person I love, who I have all this history with, but now I feel like pressure to not engage in that relationship anymore. Um. And so I just started asking questions. And those questions led to this book. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I’m wondering. Right. And this is I’m I’m playing the part of somebody who hasn’t um engaged with you or or the or the book. So I’m wondering, what were the reservations around the book um or about creating the book? What was the fears that came up around creating the book? So we’ll start there. What were the fears? 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. Um. I had a lot to be honest um and and still kind of do. But there’s so there’s a story that I talk about in the book and I share my experience of the moment uh again in 2021 that I was watching TV and we were awaiting um the verdict of George Floyd’s murder trial. And so I’m sitting down there um and we’re all waiting for this. We get the verdict and it’s guilty. And the first thing I did was reach for my phone and I grabbed my phone and I opened up Instagram because I was like, I have to say something, right? So at this time, I had my my previous career was in the DEI space um and in the justice world. And so I opened my phone and I start to post something and I’m like, guilty, like praise hand emojis, you know? And then I’m like, wait, like, is that right? You know, so like, close out my stories and I go to like another activist that I follow and admire and she’s like, you should not be celebrating like George Floyd should still be alive. So I’m like, whoa. Definitely no praise hand emojis, you know? So then I like, go back and I’m like, maybe I’ll just put guilty, you know, Then I go back to another activist I like before I post that one. And she’s saying, you know, this isn’t justice this is accountability, they’re not the same time, so I’m like, oh I don’t want to say anything wrong or complicated. So then I just post like, maybe I’ll just do black on my story, you know? And then I go to another activist that I follow and she’s like, don’t let anyone tell you you can’t celebrate like your feelings are valid. So I’m like, oh my God, the praise hands are back. Like, I literally was just like, spiraling. And it was a moment for me to realize how much I was performing for the–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: –approval of a I mean, nebulous online Internet, progressive community. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: And how far I had gotten from my own voice. And part of the fear, one of my biggest fears in writing this book, I mean, writing is vulnerable, period. But I remember telling I was telling my wife, I was like, I think there are people who feel like this isn’t radical enough, and that will be hard for me. I don’t want to come off again. It was all of the perceptions of like, oh there’s all these people who do this work that I feel like I truly do admire, um and I’m bringing a different angle to the conversation. And I don’t know how that will be seen. And so that was that was a big fear. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I do think identities probably inform how we arrive at the situation. I don’t want to overstate what I think but but what what what do you think that your own racial and queer identity informed you, even maybe even having the stomach to do certain things? Because if I’m being really transparent, I come from a Black middle class, working class, some upper middle class, but mostly Black people um four four grandmas on each side, you know what I mean? So there might be an outlier Trump idiot uncle who we never liked, but it seems as though the more well, A, that’s changing inside of Black family households. There are there are more conservative Black people. And you can see the numbers in that. But I’m also just wondering, like how much of maybe your own racial and um and and and and gender or sexual background helped you have the stomach to even go there and to  even look at this from this perspective. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. Oh my gosh. It’s it’s everything. It’s identity and upbringing, right? It’s it’s person and place. So um I’m obvious not obviously, I’m biracial. [laughter] And I I say obviously if you’re watching this on video. If you’re just listening, it may not be obvious. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Which is still not obvious because my my sister is about your complexion. So–

 

Brit Barron: No and that’s true. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And and yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: Um and we’re we’re headed into winter. So it’s it’s going to become only more obvious. But um so my mom is Mexican. My my father’s African-American. And so I grew up already in in, you know, biracial people. We we grew up already in sort of a confusing landscape of identity. And then um but I also grew up in predominantly white neighborhoods and schools uh and predominately white churches and spaces. Um. And then my queer identity was something that I became more keenly aware of a little bit later in life. I think partially because of growing up in so many religious spaces. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: And so feeling a connection to all of these communities. But also, quite frankly, just having a language and ability that came from the spaces that I grew up and was raised in, um I think just has always put me in a distinct position to be able to have certain conversations that I probably wouldn’t have otherwise have. And something that’s interesting that I say all the time is I think sometimes we just get wrapped up in our work looking like someone else’s work. And I don’t think that it’s people of color’s job to explain racism to white people. However, me personally, I just grew up doing that because those were the spaces that I grew up in, right? So that’s just a conversation I was like familiar with having. Um. But I think something that I realized along the way of what started out as a book. You know, sort of how to have conversations with different people and really does talk about politics and ideology. I also, as I grew up, the more I realized, regardless of if your entire family votes the same way and goes to the same church, there’s still going to be some massive disappointments that you have to acknowledge. And what do you do when love and disappointment exist in the same space? And that sort of became the premise of the book. So I think my identity plays a huge part into why I even wanted to write this book. Um. I’m now also in an interracial marriage um my wife is white. And so we’ve had I mean, the conversation has just expanded. And, you know, I talked to even the publishers when we were sort of shopping this book around, you know, and I was like, yeah, quite frankly, this isn’t a book a white man’s going to write, you know? Um. And so I’m I want to write it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I love it. I love that. So I’m. Because I’m. I’m endlessly nosy. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So. I’ve met people. I’m sure we all have. Between like New York and like LA. You know, the coastal kind of places. Um. I’ve noticed there’s a lot of people that you’ll meet who are biracial, Black. Um. Any type of like, racial minority. And a lot of times, specifically, if I’m in like maybe an elite space or elite institution, usually they’ll have already been used to being the only that minority in that space. So that will be normal. Um. But I guess the part so from my experience. Specifically thinking about queer of color people who are not over 50. They seem to once they have, let’s say like a radical awakening, they seem to uh it’s maybe the word is puritanical. They seem to be more puritanical, more um once they have this kind of awakening around racial injustice. They you either agree with their perspectives on race or you or you don’t, and you’re out. I’m I’m interested in what is that thing inside of you or that story inside of you that made you have a different story? Because I’ve seen it so many times and I know that it’s kind of routine. You know, it’s like if you take a kid and you put them in a certain type of school, they’ll come back talking about stuff and you’re like, that’s the culture of that school. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: So I’m just wondering how come you went the way of like, because this is an empathy. This is a lot of empathy. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And writing is not easy. So how do you kind of. Yeah. What, what, what, what, what is that story that made you go that different way? Um and yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah, I to be completely honest, I think a lot of that has to do with my experience in church, um positively and negatively. So one thing, when I grew up in um evangelical church, you know, and in the ’90s and like, purity culture and all these things, and I existed so tightly in the space that said, these are the books you can read, these are the songs you can sing, these are the words that you use, these are the prayers that you can pray. These are all the things you have to do. And if you step out of this and you don’t do any of these things, you can’t be in our club anymore. Right. And so I understood that very cleanly. And like you said, when I came out, right when I had all these things, I had this like big awakening and I swung for the fences. I think in a very similar way that you’re talking about. And I was like, oh no, like that’s for the birds. Like, I’m going over here. And I found myself like, very entrenched in these social justice spaces. And then I started to look around and I started to hear it started to feel familiar in a way I did not like. That said, these are the books you can read. These are the words you can say, this is the music you can listen to. These are the things you can do, or you can’t be in our club. And I was like, you know what? I actually just left this. And what I didn’t do is leave this to become a version of the thing that I just left. Like, the fundamental root of that is it’s fundamentalism. Um. And I don’t want that in my life. Like, I don’t want it. I don’t just want to exchange the books and the words like, I want a different way of being that is like available to to more people in these places. And it’s something I talk about in the book is this idea of progressive amnesia, which I feel like is one of our biggest barriers to empathy, is that for most of us, we become radicalized in some idea. And I’m not even saying that’s bad. We learn something new about the world. We learn something new about ourselves. But then we have this tendency to exist and act as if we’ve always known it, right? So.

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: I say all the time. Before I came out, I thought about the fact, like my own sexuality every single day for many years weekly with a therapist for many years talking it through. And so. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: I have this moment where then I, I come out to people in my life who have a specific framework that I just spent three years of weekly therapy trying to very specifically untie. And within five minutes, I am expecting them to fully catch up to that work that I’ve done, right? Or in 2020, like we saw this like you read one post, you order White Fragility on Amazon. It hasn’t even come to your house yet and you already barking at these people like, I can’t believe you don’t know this like. I’m like girl, you just it’s Tuesday. You you learned this on Monday. Right. And so our desire to to be on this high horse, so to speak, um has just caused me a lot of pause because I already did that. I already did that with Jesus is the way, the truth of life. Now I need to move to, you know, Malcolm X is the way the truth like I want to be in a world where it’s open for let’s learn new things. Let’s change our mind and let’s be gracious to the journey that we’ve all been on. Like maybe you were born with a Bell Hooks book in your hand, but odds are you weren’t right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right, right. 

 

Brit Barron: Meaning like you have had this journey as well. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. And I think it’s not a, let’s let’s save that so I’m wondering [laugh] because I could really talk to you all day about this, but for the listeners, too, and I want you to be as specific as possible. Were you noticing gaps in maybe empathy or understanding offline as well? Because sometimes we have conversations like this and we’ll say the Internet or progressive, and that’s it’s a conservative thing um too, right? That we kind of like say everything’s all happening online and on the Internet and this is happening on on here. And it makes it seem as as if these things aren’t manifesting in real life. So I’m wondering um how much of the need for this book, the need for this resource was informed by offline experiences too? 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. No, it was incredibly and and the way I found myself articulating it as I started working on this project was my fear was our online relationships had infiltrated our offline relationships. And online, the tough thing is that’s a two dimensional space, right? So let’s say I follow you on Instagram. You say something I don’t like one day, I click two buttons and I’ll literally never see you again. Right? That’s just like, that is the easy peasy. And we have this like instant gratification of that, of like, oh that wasn’t comfortable. Guess what? You’re gone. And that’s fine if you’re like I don’t know oh Ryan Reynolds said something I didn’t like. There he goes like that’s not. That’s of no consequence to me. Um. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: Well, what I started hearing and sitting around tables with friends is that they had family members or people in their life or former college roommates who said something that they didn’t agree with. And then they were like, yeah, so we don’t talk anymore. So like and I was like, oh that is a that feels like a direct result of taking this flat space and trying to put it onto our three dimensional space, right? And not being able to hold multiple things as true, which you don’t have to do on the internet, but you do have to do in real life. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And I think so many people are so ill equipped. I am somebody who has who has a lot of opinions, who has a lot of a point of view. And when you’re talking about like being born, I was not born with a Bell Hooks book in my hand. But my mom is an ex Black Panther. Um. I just did not grow up in a uh uh diplomatic like household. It was it was an Afrocentric Black household. 

 

Brit Barron: And we love to see it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um, yeah. And we and we do but what I’m. There was no here. Here it is. There was no incentive for me to be pro-Black when, I’m 33 now, when I was 13. When I was 14, there was just–

 

Brit Barron: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –no cultural incentive for me to be progressive. I’m wondering where’s your hope at? Because part o this has to be around the fact that our dopamine is hooked up with our likes and our everything that we’re messaging out is political. So aren’t we kind of in this apparatus that like, incentivizes us too, kind of be very binary when it comes to our opinions? 

 

Brit Barron: 100%. We are being pushed to binary thinking through almost every like every framework that we look at, like in our storytelling, uh in our like media. So like TV, movies, like a lot of books, social media, whatever we are consuming, the likelihood of it pushing to us to binary thinking is so strong. And so our ability to resist that and to actually hold and sit with nuance, I always joke that the Internet is where nuance goes to die, um is so incredibly important. And something I keep saying over and over again is our ability to access empathy for folks who are on the quote, “other side” or disagree or whatever those things are, um I don’t believe is like childish or simple, I think it’s actually far more radical um than we can understand. And the reason for that is and I keep having to say this again and again because people are like I can’t have empathy for people like who are wrong. And I’m like you. I have very strong opinions. I have a very clear point of view like and I also know that I have changed my mind many times, right? But having empathy and being able to access that does more for me than it does for the other person. Because at the end of the day, empathy is not an endorsement. Right? And I’ve been getting a lot of pushback sometimes on like, how can I empathize with someone who is voting for Trump? How can I empathize for these people who are voting? I’m like, baby your empathy is not an endorsement, right? It’s not saying like, oh I have empathy for you. So everything you believe is okay. It’s saying, oh I actually see you as a human being. And I might understand why you have gotten fed the same algorithm that I have just with the opposite language. And I can understand all these things. And that doesn’t mean I agree with you, but now I’m able to access something that actually might allow us to move the needle in a very specific way. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Do you have your own limits? So meaning are there some things you’re able to utilize that empathy on and other things where you’re like, well, no, because it’s it’s so it’s so wild now Brit. Like, right now we’re recording this it’s November 1st. Which which makes it just minutes away from knowing what’s going to happen with the election. 

 

Brit Barron: Moments, mere moments. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: You know, So but the rhetoric becomes more right or wrong, you know, it becomes less nuanced how you can take certain things and you still have people who are associating themselves. I’m just going to use Trump as, you know, an obvious. And–

 

Brit Barron: The easiest.

 

Myles E. Johnson: The obvious and easiest example is that, okay, so if you have somebody say an island is um an island of trash, and if you have somebody say um this racial thing or this misogynistic thing and you know, you are a lot of the things that they’re listing. You know what I mean? I guess I’m trying I’m I guess in my mind I’m like, do you have a limit? You’re like, well, you know what? I can have empathy, but at this point, I can’t go any further than this because this is not good for me. What’s your internal compass. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: When it comes to stuff like that? 

 

Brit Barron: I mean, I have daily hourly limits. Um. [laughter] And and and part of that. So two things. One. Yes. And I believe so strongly in boundaries, they’re the kindest thing you could do for yourself and the people in your life. Um. And I have very strong boundaries with people, but also with information. And part of the reason for that is because so something I am I’m not advocating in the book. I’m not like, hey, go find a person on the street who looks like they would disagree with you the most and strike up a conversation. Right?

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. Grandma is in the title. [laughing]

 

Brit Barron: Right? So I’m what I’m saying is there are people in your life for whom evolution will happen at a different weight, rate between you and them. That is just like factual. So you will become radicalized. You will read something you will emotionally outgrow. You will start going through the family trauma that they don’t want to bring up in therapy. All of these things will happen between you and the people that you deeply care for. I think what’s really hard is that we have such access to information that we associate. Right. Like. So even saying, okay, you have your old college roommate you love, you have the, you know, godparent to their kids, yada, yada, yada. And they’re like, I don’t know who I should vote for. And I voted for Donald Trump in the last election, and we’re working through these things. So if there are times where and there’s times where I have it and times where I don’t, but if there’s times when I have it, I’m like, let’s sit down and have a conversation. What’s hard for me is I need to separate her from the comedian on stage at the rally. So, like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s we are both every side is fed the most extreme version of that thing. Right. And so we go into a conversation with someone we know, like good and well, you know, like but we I, I’m not listening to her. I’m, like, hearing all the things from the rally in New York. I’m like, watching Trump’s little, like, orange face say the craziest thing I’ve ever heard in my life. [laughter] Like I’m. You know what I mean? Like, this is and they’re looking at me being like, you want, you know litter boxes in, you know, schools for people who identify as cats, like, you know what I mean? Like, you’re just and I’m like, this isn’t even we’re not having a conversation anymore. What we are doing is parroting the most extreme version of the things that we’ve heard. Um. And so I think something that is helpful for me is, I mean, I had a conversation the other day with a close friend who was like, you know, we’re at a bar. And they’re like, listen, we could disagree on pizza toppings and still be friends, but we can’t disagree on racism, you know? And I was like, what does that even mean? Like disagree on what about, there’s 97,000 things we could disagree about on racism. Is it, do we need to abolish the police? Do we need to reform the police? Do uh we need affirmative action and reparations? What would reparations look like? And who gets reparations? And how do we handle this inequity? And how old are you? Like there’s a thousand things like we. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: And so to, like, boil it down to these soundbites, to say like, it’s it’s very tempting. Um. But I think, you know, I say all the time, I live in Los Angeles, and what I know to be true is um there are thousands of people who don’t have places to sleep, who sleep on the streets. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: And no one in the city of Los Angeles looks at that and says, like, oh that’s a good thing. Oh we’re doing great. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: But the ideas on what to do are wildly different. And something that I try to stay close to is there’s a concept in the book called that I talk about. Arie Kruglanski, he’s a psychologist who coined the term cognitive closure, which is the point in which our brains decided they have enough information on something. We become cognitive closed. Um. And so what I can acknowledge for myself is the ways that I’m cognitively closed is that all human beings are deserving of dignity, all human beings deserving of dignity, period. That is the what. I try to allow myself to be open on the how. Um. And that allows me to say like, here’s my boundary line. Like if we’re if we’re going to disagree that people aren’t deserving of dignity, like we we’re not going to make it in a conversation, but if we both agree on the what, um then I want to be in conversation about the how. Okay. We both agree our cities should not have these people sleeping on the streets, that everyone would like okay. How is that going to happen? Um. And I want to actually be open to say here are my opinions and thoughts about it, but I’m I’m open to new information. And so I think, to your point, we’re in a time right now where it’s easy to lump. And fall into that thing and lump everyone together to say like, if you’re even thinking about voting Republican, then you’re that comedian on that stage. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: Which is hard because I’m not the I’m not the most extreme talking points of the left. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Mm hmm. 

 

Brit Barron: You know, I don’t. I don’t want someone to. I don’t want to be that. Right. Um. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: That’s who I’m voting for. I’m voting for Kamala. I have a million reasons why. And I can talk about it all day. Um. And I don’t just want to be assumed to be the most extreme version of that thing that you saw on your channel. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think the challenge is going to be because sometimes I don’t wake up and think I’m the most extreme person on the left or most radical or I know I mean, I know I’m not the most extreme person on the left because I’m like also the laziest person in like the Midwest. So like [laugh] so so I’m like. [laughter]

 

Brit Barron: You’re like baby we don’t have the energy to be extreme today. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: But I’m like, I’m like, if it just takes like, my like, you know, where I put like, whatever extra money I have in, you know who what I want to talk about it how I think the world should be. Sure I’m extreme, but I’m like, I’m not. If it involves me putting on shoes, then I’m not. Um. Joking kind of. But um. [laugh]

 

Brit Barron: If the truth could be online, I’ll do it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Then we’ll do it. Um. But but I’m also wondering, because it feels so so I hear you. So again, you can send me your invoice because I feel like I’m working some things out with you. 

 

Brit Barron: No no I love this.

 

Myles E. Johnson: So in my head, a lot of this stuff that people are arguing, I’m like. Is is there even space for this? So there’s always space for empath empathy. There’s always space to know somebody is a good person, is a human being ,and to offer somebody’s dignity. I totally agree with you. But it seems as though a lot of the things that people are missing are like fundamental things, like so it’s not racism. And what do we do about it? It’s does racism even exist? Has it ever existed? We’re talking about, did we go to the moon? Like [laugh] I’m so so I’m and that’s the most extreme of those examples. But just–

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: More and more, those extreme examples become more and more relevant. So I’m wondering from you, from the research you’ve done and the writing you’ve done, how much of this is able to be tackled through community and through friendship and through family? And how much of this is like cognitive and and out of our pay grade as human beings with other human beings? 

 

Brit Barron: Totally. Yes and um. [laughter] Yeah, absolutely. And and I think the reason I wrote this book is because if I go online and I try to like, be like, let let me make sense to these random conservative people, like it’s never going to work. But what I am always pushing towards is I don’t know that that’s our work. I think the work is whoever is already, who do we already have? Who is already in our lives and how do we maintain that? I think you’re right. I go online and I listen to I’ll like hear somebody say something and I’m like, you just about took me out. Like, I can’t actually believe that this is like 2024 human being, like, saying this, but I don’t I don’t know that person from [?]. Right. But I just I have people in my actual life and and something I think about often and I don’t love thinking about. But in 2008, um same sex marriage was on the ballot in California. And I was a senior at a conservative Christian university. And so I am really struggling with. I had one friend who had come out as gay, and we were all sort of like, what do we do? I’ve I’ve had I have now decades of information telling me basically the worst thing you can do in life is be gay. And–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: God doesn’t like smoking either. But what he really doesn’t like, is gay for some reason. And and so I and I like want to be a good Christian, but I also am am feeling this pull towards empathy. I think the back of my mind was starting to pull threads like girl look in the mirror. But um you know I hadn’t fully got there yet. And I stood in that ballot box and like had a meltdown like–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Wow. 

 

Brit Barron: I short circuited and like, I’m, I’m like, trembling because I’m like, I want I want to say yes because I want, like, my friend should be able to get married. Like people should be able to love each other. But what if what if I pushed the no. I’m not kidding, Myles. What if I push the no button and I get struck by lightning because God is so mad at me? That was a real thing I thought. And I’m like a intelligent, normal human being who was so indoctrinated with a specific theology that I short circuited in a voting booth for same sex marriage in 2008 because I thought that God might strike me down with lightning for letting the gays get married. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Fast forward to today. 

 

Brit Barron: Now I’m married to a whole ass woman, living my little best life, like advocating for queer rights again and again and again and again. And so when I, I, I just do not have the ability to pretend like no one. Like there is someone who is too far away from being able to change their mind. Um. Because I look at how far I’ve come. And in case you’re wondering, what helped me on that journey was not a tweet. And I didn’t like read something on Instagram one day and be like, oh an infograph that’s telling me I’m stupid. Um. I should not do that. Right? It was like all of these people who came like who continued to, my friend, that one friend who came out like way before. And I joke all literally all my friends from Christian college were all gay. I don’t even know. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

Brit Barron: I’m like, oh my gosh, we all just, you know, and we all just–

 

Myles E. Johnson: That that tracks that tracks. 

 

Brit Barron: No, literally. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That tracks. 

 

Brit Barron: I’m like, wow, choir anyone? So we, you know, we. And all at different rates, right? And then coming out and realizing my own sexuality and then having friends being like, Yeah, but what do you think about the gender binary, you know, and me being like, oh my God, like I have just I have grown ions like. And so I say all the time I can look in these people and these conservative churches who think that their God wants them to do things. And I can say you are antiquated, prehistoric idiots, incapable of change. But I’m like, are you antiquated, prehistoric idiots maybe? Or are you me 15 years ago? And if you’re me 15 years ago, then I have to believe that there’s a pathway to change. Right? And so, again, to your point, I don’t I don’t know what to do with strangers on the Internet. I have–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: I don’t know. I don’t know what to do about that. But I think there are people in our life like I remember when our first friend in our friend group went to therapy and said they went to therapy and we were all like, whoa. That’s kind of crazy, you know, like. And then I remember, I mean, now we’re all like, you know, and now they’re like. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

Brit Barron: Oh you don’t do mushrooms. Like, it just keeps. [laughter]

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: You know what I mean, like? The needle keeps moving. And, and so, like, our ability to know it’s not just politics like we’re going to have this election. I personally believe that Kamala is going to win. And when she does, it’s not just going to be okay, we’re done. Right? We’re going to have hundreds of thousands of ways that we are being asked to evolve with the people in our life and to invite people into our life, into evolution that we’ve experienced. And for us to just want to be with people only who know all the exact same things we do eventually we’ll be standing on an island alone. Um. And so it’s I don’t know what to do about those people. Who I see on the screen who say nonsense. Um. But if I can sit with my friend who’s like, okay, help me understand, like our friend who just came out as non-binary, like, I kind of don’t understand that. And I’m like, oh great. I would love to have a lunch date and I would love to like, tell you what I didn’t understand into what I understand now. And I would love to like do that. And I have I can sit with that for endless times. And so I think just reminding I didn’t write this book for strangers. I wrote this book for the people that we already know. Um. And I think it hits different when we’re able to say, listen, my grandma isn’t that random lady screaming on the thing. My Aunt Linda, my college roommate, these are I know them. We have history and if I can be a reason why they go from short circuiting in this voting booth, not knowing what to do to like living out their queer fantasy. Then I want to do it because people did that for me. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: From this talk with you and reading the book, I think the thing that I left with with the book was that we all probably have one person in our lives who we can seduce into rightness and into righteousness. And it looks differently. So probably the most conservative people who are in my life are cis gay Black men, which is not the most conservative cohort. But there are things and ideas around gender and in around therapy and around mental health and around spiritual health that I have that push them along. So I, I love that you wrote about this and also love that you kind of went with to me, the scariest people, not scary as in literally the scariest people, but to me the hardest thing to address. You know? Where it’s– 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: It’s a easier pathway when somebody is a Black gay man and then you kind of say, well, you know what? You kind of can map out a way to non-binary acceptance or trans woman acceptance a little bit easier than um somebody who has, you know, been indoctrinated by other infor– um information, misinformation, if it’s for me. So another component of this book is a workbook. 

 

Brit Barron: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um. So I love that. What made you was that your idea? Was it the publisher’s idea? The workbook component. How did that come to be? 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah, that was. That was a joint effort between the publisher and I. And– 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

Brit Barron: It really came to be because as I started writing the book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is bringing up a lot of practical questions. Like, this is this is making me want to sit and have a conversation with every single person who reads it. Like I want to sit down. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: This is what you do. 

 

Brit Barron: I want to be like. Yeah, I want to be like, okay, so here’s what I’m saying though. Like, what do you think about this for your life? Like, so here’s the concept. Here’s like a way it played out for me, but like, what does this mean for you? And you’re exactly right. Like, it’s not I know everything feels like it’s about this election right now because we are coming up to this election right now. But it’s a million things like getting your like cis male friends to like have a broader idea of these like trans and non-binary identities is huge. Right? Like our our just like constant ability to be able to do these things empathetically is so important. And so the workbook was really created for two things. One, it’s like a way for me to feel like I was sitting being like, okay. Like, yes, here’s the things. Here’s a concept, here’s an idea. What does this mean for you? And to create a tool that could potentially host a conversation between people, right? So, hey, like let’s read this book together and then let’s like kind of work through these things together and talk about what this is for us. And there are things that have come up with folks I’ve talked to that I didn’t even I wasn’t even thinking about like, I talked to this man and he was like, your book held me so much like I boycotted the last two Thanksgivings with my family because they refused to be vegan. And and I’m like oh yeah, totally. You know, and you’re just like. You know, talking about animals. He’s like they’re sentient beings and how can you. And this is so stupid. And I. And he went like off on his whole family and I was like, how long have you been vegan? And he was like, three years. I was like, okay so you’re um. [laughter] But. Go off, king. He said, I have found the way and you are not doing it. And he he has boycotted the last two Thanksgivings of his family because they won’t be vegan.

 

Myles E. Johnson: I want you to finish. I want you to finish your story. But the wildest thing about these situations is that be it not four four fucking years ago, you would be beheaded right now too. So that’s what’s so wild about these puritanical ideas and reactions to things–

 

Brit Barron: Because you were eating a–

 

Myles E. Johnson: –that you just adapt–

 

Brit Barron: –rotisserie chicken. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: For so I’m like, what? So let other people have their journey too. There’s other things where I’m like, those base, we. Sexism, racism, right, wrong, hitting people, these things. We kind of bake are we’re baked into most people’s childhood. 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m like veganism? I’m like from frickin Georgia. Like, of course, no, you know. Um.

 

Brit Barron: Well, you know, when you care about something, you care about something. And you and you you’re right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yes. 

 

Brit Barron: You follow this like, weird idea. And even, you know, I think about all the time, like, sexism. I feel like if you would have asked me at any point in my life, I’d be like, sexism is wrong. And– 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yes. 

 

Brit Barron: But then I’m like look back and I’m like girl, you really had some sexist ideas. You know what I mean? Like, so many of these things are a gradient. And I think when you find people and what I say in in the book is when we disagree on our core belief, like our foundational, like all humans are deserving of dignity. If you don’t agree on that. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: Then our community like is going to be lost like we can’t. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Brit Barron: But if we agree on that, I’m like, okay, let’s happily walk down this gradient of um what these things mean because we’re it’s it’s such a. It’s such a journey that we are all on in some way. Um.

 

Myles E. Johnson: It truly is. And like, you know, as as queer as I sit next, in front of you today, I think as somebody who writes and reads and and listens to other people talk and just doing all this other stuff, I think the the other the thing that I get most excited about is when somebody understands. When somebody gets it. So the time where somebody understands white supremacy and white people don’t mean the same thing. That’s really exciting to me. But we don’t need to pretend that we have are haven’t internalized any of these things, you know? I think the shame that you feel in your past often is reminding people of who they were in their past, and that’s where that reaction is coming from. Um. 

 

Brit Barron: Period. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And and I and and. Yeah, but. What’s what’s the what’s what’s what’s some of the best advice you’ve gotten tha’st stuck with you? 

 

Brit Barron: Well, something my my dad always told us um is that the three most helpful words in the English language are, help me understand. Um. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Mmmm. 

 

Brit Barron: And if I you know when you said, what’s your what’s your line? Do you have a line, do you have a boundary and something I think all the time in any important conversation. Right. Whether it’s just a conversation I’m going into with my partner about like life things we’re going through or a conversation with someone I disagree with and I know, or I always ask myself, am I in a position to truly understand before I am understood? Like, do I actually, can I hear this person? Um. And I always tell myself, like, if I’m not if I can’t hear you, like, I’ll tell you that like, one of my closest friends. He’s so funny and we have so much in common and so much not in common. And sometimes we’ll get into a little debate and I’ll tell him, oh I, I don’t have capacity to hear you right now. I just so like, we’re either going to, I’ll yell like we are like, I’m not. This isn’t a conversation. That’s not where I’m feeling. So I would love to, like, come back to this when I when I can hear you. Because what I the only thing I can do right now is be heard. And I know that. Um. And if you want to listen to me. We can do it. But help me understand always pushes me to say like, oh but am I really in a place to to hear? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I love that. Um. What, some people are filled with hope right now. Some people are not. What would you say to people who are losing hope, who are in movement work and creative work and cultural work? What would you say to them to give them some some hope? 

 

Brit Barron: Well, something I find a lot of hope in. I think the more insulated I get into my frame right now. The less hopeful I feel, the more I zoom out, the more hope I feel. Um, you know, it’s been said like our our job is to plant seeds for trees we’ll never sit under. And when I can connect myself to the fact that there have been people for years and years and years and years and years planting seeds of things, like I’m about to go like walk my little self into a voting booth and um vote for a woman who went to Howard University like um and and people have been working towards that who didn’t get to see it. And so the sense of urgency when that leaves, the optimism has room and the hope has space. When I know that all the work I want to see in the world I’m not necessarily entitled to seeing in my lifetime, but rather I’m a I’m like a piece of a larger fabric that has been woven from long before me and will be woven for long after. And so I think. The hope comes in the expectation, right? My expectation is not for me to see it all. Not to see it all in the next seven days, not to see it all in the next two years, not to see it all from my time here on this earth. Um. And so I think that while that may not seem hopeful, that is where I get a lot of hope to be like it’s not it’s not only on me and it never has been. I’m existing for for folks who did this for me and I can do it for people after me. Whether or not I see the fullness of that experience in my lifetime. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think that’s extremely helpful and it makes me think I love that analogy around the trees because it always makes me think like, you know, sure we’re planting some trees, but we’re also sitting in the shade of so many planted trees too. So, you know, maybe take some time to enjoy the shade of a tree planted ago, if you need that respite of doing your own planting. So I love that. Um Britt, I love talking to you. I really do. I really love this book. Um. 

 

Brit Barron: Thank you. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: It was challenging for me because, again, I think that Black East Coast New Yorker, like, you know, um I think I was ready. I have like my like boxing gloves on and you you really you really had some really empathetic, beautiful, and just like courageous words and there’s just nobody who doesn’t need to read this book and apply it because we all have people who we, A, want to stay connected to, but then also we want pathways to maybe get somebody to that righteous place or get somebody to um and I’m not here to say, I mean, I think the righteous place is always somewhere on the left. But like [laugh] the most the the more years that go [?] by, I’m like, uh yeah, whatever. But, but, but um I think that we all have people in our lives who we’re we’re going to have to interface with. And I think that, you know, I’m a woo woo person. So I think that sometimes we’re spiritually and universally charged with being that person in people’s lives. And this really helps give you the tools. Um. Can you remind people where they can find your book and um and where they can find your book and where they can find you? 

 

Brit Barron: Yeah, thank you for that, by the way. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: No problem. 

 

Brit Barron: Um it was incredibly kind. You can find my book truly anywhere books are sold. If you want to order it online, you can uh find an independent bookstore near you, order it through them. Um. And uh if it’s not in your local library, you can absolutely request it that is always helpful. And you can find me on the Instagrams at @BritBarron or on the Internet at BritBarron.com. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning into Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos, executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson. [music break]