In This Episode
National Guard troops flood D.C., DOJ worker fired for sandwich assault on CBP officer, Burkina Faso’s military junta moves to criminalize homosexuality., and L.A. endures a traumatic summer of wildfire recovery, ICE raids, and protests. Myles and Sharhonda sit down with Tre Johnson, author of Black Genius: Essays on an American Legacy.
News
Wildfire Fighters, Unmasked in Toxic Smoke, Are Getting Sick and Dying
Burkina Faso’s military junta to ban homosexual acts
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles and Sharhonda, talking about the news that you probably didn’t hear with regard to race, justice, and equity, or the news that you did hear and with a different lens. And then, Myles, and Sharhonad talk to the incredible author, Tre Johnson, about his new book, Black Genius: Essays on an American Legacy. Don’t forget to follow us on Instagram at @PodSaveThePeople. Let’s go! [music break]
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: We are back and this is the week of the government taking over D.C. But we have survived another week. This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram and at @MoonPulpit on Twitter.
Sharhonda Bossier: And this is Sharhonda Bossier. You can find me on LinkedIn. I haven’t said that in a while, but I’m still there. At @BossierSha on Instagram or at @BossierS on Spill.
DeRay Mckesson: Woo woo, shout out to Spill! Now, tell me what how you all heard about the DC mess happening with the federal agencies coming into DC checkpoints. Like, what was your frame of reference? Because I’m from Baltimore and still very much on the East Coast, I feel like I might’ve seen it a little sooner than both of you who live not on the east coast anymore. But what was your how did you realize this was happening? What have you heard about it?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I think a lot of the early news I saw was very much, you know, striking the same tone and tenor as the announcement of the deployment of the National Guard in Los Angeles, right? So it was like, here it is, Trump again, targeting a democratic city, trying to figure out how far he can go. Um, and much of it was rooted in a lot the conversation around crime rates in DC, right, and Trump saying it’s, uh, you know it’s not being governed. We need to come in and assert our power and authority to bring order to the streets of Washington, DC. And then the Black part of the internet was talking about like what this would mean for Black DC. But honestly, that was sort of split into two camps. There were the people who were like, A, look out for your people. This is gonna be really bad for us. And then there were the people who were like, I’m glad they finally doing something about these YNs running around the streets. So that is sort of how it came across my radar in a few spaces.
DeRay Mckesson: Interesting.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I saw it on the internet. Saw it. Just, I guess once he announced it, once it started going down, um uh you couldn’t really avoid it on the internet. But like Sharhonda said, which I like, I like the um being tapped into the Black conservatives, like the people who are not gonna vote Republican, but the people who, you know, the Black conservative ilk. But yeah, I saw a lot of people, and maybe I’m even doing them a disservice by calling some of them Black conservative because some of the are not, but I saw lot of people have different reactions than I would have expected around the policing, being a lot of relief. And even um here where I live now, I hear a lot people wanting the same types of things. It reminds me a little bit of the um the crime bill that crooked Hillary um signed that got her not elected. So–
DeRay Mckesson: Oh jesus.
Myles E. Johnson: It’s interesting how we’re, it’s interesting but but it’s interesting how we’re in these cycles, right? Like how Hillary Clinton did not get elected because of the crime bill, but we know during that time there was a split in the Black community around what to do around gang violence and what to around what was happening. That’s where the term super predators came from. So it’s interesting to see that same split in the digital age.
DeRay Mckesson: I just want to be clear that the crime bill was not the cause of spikes of incarceration in the United States. Most people are incarcerated in cities and in states, not the federal government. But to zoom in on what Trump did, just as a matter of fact, he said that he’s going to remove the homeless people from DC and they have started clearing out homeless people. They have conducted traffic stops at checkpoints and they’ve made arrests. He, do you know how many members of the National Guard he mobilized to DC?
Sharhonda Bossier: No.
DeRay Mckesson: 800 members of the National Guard have been mobilized to the streets of DC to assist the local police department. Luckily the city did sue. So the federal government cannot just take over the local Police Department, but they can be the local government can be forced to assist with immigration. So that is like the new sort of spin because before Trump was like, I’m just going to put in a new police chief or I’ll manage the police chief. And as you can imagine, people are rightly upset at the mayor and the police chief for complying. But the other thing, I don’t know if you saw, is that the FBI has said that they are actually going to help out and they’ve started to help out too. So the FBI and other agencies, as you know, can make arrests without warrants, but the FBI was authorized this week to work overnight shifts in DC to quote, “respond to local crime as a part of the law enforcement rollout.” And you’re like okay this is interesting that the FBI is now repurposing officers from the region to deal with quote, “crime” even though DC is having a historic crime decrease. Do you think this is gonna do you think he’s gonna do this in Baltimore and in New Orleans and in LA like do you think or was just the shock and awe of it all to just do it in DC and sort of test people, what do you think his goal is here? We haven’t talked about, I mean, we don’t talk about any of the news, but I’m like super interested in what you think the what is here.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I think the what is to continue to perpetuate a narrative that democratically led cities are in need of stronger law enforcement and that the Republicans are going to be the saviors of people who live in those cities, especially when the democratic leadership of those cities is Black. Um. I have seen people say like repurposing or redirecting, you know, the FBI agents at the expense of what they are actually supposed to be focused on leaves us vulnerable in other ways. But I just think that they are running full steam ahead with this idea that like, you know again, our cities, you can’t see my air quotes, right, are in are in need of more order. Um, and they’re going to test it out in these places where, um, people don’t have a ton of faith in the city leadership, even if they won’t say it. Right. So like in Los Angeles, for instance, like Karen Bass was already a weak mayor coming out of the wildfires at the top of the year, right. And even people who consider themselves democratic or progressive won’t really say it, but there’s sort of, there’s like an undercurrent of do we really trust this Black woman to lead, right? And so in some ways there is this sigh of relief again that we’re seeing even happening in real time in DC that someone quote unquote “is gonna come in and like take charge.” Um. And I think he’s testing it cause I think plans to scale and replicate this strategy in cities across the country.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I think if we keep on talking about it, he’ll definitely try to reproduce this. Um. I think the what is obviously the Epstein list, and when it worked. Like, I almost can’t, it’s weird looking at it. I’m like, it’s weird looking at it, because I’m like, y’all don’t see the play, y’all just going to keep continue just to go down the rabbit hole and just kind of react to him, but he’s obviously, you know, he’s king. He told people, so whatever he does next, people just kind of follow him. But you know, it’s to me, it feels obvious that he wanted to kill the Epstein story and he’s doing this in order to kill the Epstein story. And I think my other thing too is, you know as somebody who has lived in a lot of democratically run cities, these moments aren’t produced because people are doing stellar performances. I’ve been in so many different cities. I’m thinking about the city I’m in right now, just so many different places, trying not to dox myself. But there’s been so many different cities I’ve been in that I’m like, oh, my goodness. It’s so obvious how you how you get these cities to become Republican run or you open it up for people to come in and try to take over because it’s just like the Democrats get in some of these cities and don’t do [bleep] don’t do anything. And um it’s sad to see both of those opposing sides working in concert to, you know, essentially now we’re looking at it oppress their citizens.
DeRay Mckesson: Do you think that this will backfire though? Do you think that, like I think about the restaurant reservations dropping in DC. I think about the sane people who are worried about crime in DC who also are like, okay, this is crazy. They’re like, it’s the police jacking people up and da da da. You don’t think that this will have like this tactical backfire?
Sharhonda Bossier: I think that he has been able to convince people that this pain, right, or this pain point is going to be temporary. And that what’s on the other side is everything they’ve ever wanted. And I think we’re seeing that with tariffs and the economic and financial implications of those, etc. So I don’t think so, actually. I mean, in fact, he has already said, you know, in Los Angeles that he’s like, okay, the Olympics are coming. We need to be in charge there too, and we need to be in charge when the Olympics are in town, right? And people are like–
DeRay Mckesson: Oh, he said that?
Sharhonda Bossier: Mmhm. Yeah. And people were like, he might be he might be right about that, you know? And so I just think that people are preparing themselves and in a lot of ways complying in advance, just assuming that this is going to be the new state of things um and believing that while it might be painful in the short term and the long term, we are going to have safer and more orderly cities.
DeRay Mckesson: Interesting. Myles?
Myles E. Johnson: I don’t know. I don’t know. My gut tells me no, because there’s a lot of different people in DC, if we can take a brief moment, like educate me on the makeup of DC. That’s how I see it as a non-DCer, is that this is like a generally democratic like place, right? So–
DeRay Mckesson: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: He’s doing unpopular things in a democratic place, so he’s upsetting people who he doesn’t care about. Which is the whole, the magic trick is that, oh, you’re all Democrats, I didn’t have your vote anyway, so I’m gonna use the theater of whatever I’m going to do to y’all in order to feed my base and it’s gonna come out even. So that’s how I see it. I don’t think that, but but to your point about seeing the tanks and seeing all these different things, even to people who are more Republican, is I think that you have to sit and appreciate the idea that a lot of people think it’s time for that. A lot of people think it’s time for that type of militarism, that type of fascism, and that type of um and that type of movement in multiple different places. And I and like I said before, and I have to say, because of, you know, local democratic failures and systemic failures, it does, some places in America, in some hoods in America and I’m sure in DC too, feel like war zones. It feels like one take away. I’m sure it feels like that, you know. Unfortunately, we can’t connect that to chattel slavery and capitalism and more systemic issues that need to be addressed. We just translate that into over-policing because we’re American.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s so hard because, you know, I think people, I hope people are starting to realize that immigrant to Trump just means anybody he doesn’t like.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm-hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: Like an immigrant doesn’t have any other phrase besides like you can be white, you can be Black, you can be anybody he does not like is actually is ICE-able at this point. Um. And it’s been interesting because people are like, oh, the immigrants. You’re like, you are the immigrants, you don’t realize you thought immigrant meant from another country. He thinks y’all are from another country. He thinks I’m from another country. He think I belong in another country, I hope it backfires, I ask because I hope it backfires. I want to believe that like, I don’t know, I want I believe. But, did you see the the white guy? I was surprised it was a white guy, threw the sandwich at the officer, and then you found out that man worked for the DOJ? You’re like, well, that was intense. Got charged with felony assault of a police officer. Then the judge said, no, you overcharged him and released him.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: That was a whole saga, but shout out to that guy for being like, this is silly.
Sharhonda Bossier: And I’ma be silly with you, I’m a clown with you.
Myles E. Johnson: That whole story confused the hell out of me. Was that story just a big deal because he was a DOJ officer? I think I’m confused on who that story fed and me seeing it go so viral. Like did that animate people who are more on the liberal side around seeing people resist things? But then wouldn’t him actually working for the DOJ unanimate them because the same fascist you’re calling is the fascist you work for. It’s like you just quit being a fascist two two two days ago and now you over here throwing sandwiches. I didn’t get the fuel. I didn’t understand that.
Sharhonda Bossier: I didn’t know he worked for the DOJ for a couple of days until, you know.
DeRay Mckesson: None of us did.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, exactly.
DeRay Mckesson: Until he got fired.
Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly. And they announced that they were firing him. I think it was like, this is ridiculous. This person is, like, you, know, resisting in some way, right, even if we think it’s silly. I think there’s a little bit of a David and Goliath dynamic, too, right? People are like, these people are armed, there are tanks, they have armour on, there are tanks rolling through streets, et cetera, and he’s thrown a sandwich. And the state is going to respond with like a disproportionate penalty, you know what I mean? So I do think it was a little bit of that. His connection to the Department of Justice, again, was not public, at least not on my radar for a few days after that.
DeRay Mckesson: And Myles, I think people are like interested in seeing people fight back, you know like I? And I think that’s what people received it as. They were like, oh, finally, like not just Black people are like fighting back is how I saw people celebrate it.
Myles E. Johnson: Got it. Yeah, I didn’t see that on my end of the internet, but I do appreciate I knew it I knew it had to be happening because I kept on seeing it. But what I will say is, how do we have tanks to your hope comment and like having hope, the reason why I have been on a journey of redefining hope for myself during this presidency, specifically as it comes to Americans, is how do you have tanks? How do you have this type of white nationalism? How do have this type of organized white terrorism taking over your country and you see it both in the ways that are um that are legal and illegal happening? And like the pussy hat is what you do. The throwing a sandwich is what do. Like, and I get it. We all love our lives. We all love our comforts. We all love our freedom. We all love having air and breath and blood beating in our bodies. But just know that our American comforts and and these kind of symbolic, just dumb things are what kind of keeps us in a vulnerable state of being able to be taken over. Like, it’s just so stupid to me. It’s really just stupid.
Sharhonda Bossier: Is your position that if you were going to throw a sandwich, you should not have done anything?
Myles E. Johnson: Like, I don’t know about the position of throwing the sandwich, what I think I’m critiquing more so American culture in general, that we are so in love with symbolism that something as empty as throwing a sandwich when there’s a fascist takeover becomes viral because we’re so thirsty for heroism. And what the actual heroism that we need in this moment is something that might actually risk your life. Is something might actually risk your your comfort.
DeRay Mckesson: But that could have. If a Black person had thrown a sandwich they’d a shot that man and, you know, I don’t know. What I do agree with you on is that if you think that the sandwich is the end of the action, then we’ve lost the game. If the pink hat is like all you have to do, I think we’ve like lost. But I do think that people need like a ladder of actions and like they got to start somewhere. And I think that, you now, as somebody who was in the street and da da da, like I would have never thrown a sandwitch. I wouldn’t have thrown anything. Cause Lord knows if I’d have thrown something, they’d have been–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes, you’d have been on a t-shirt.
DeRay Mckesson: It would have been literally. It would have been sandwich, water bottle, oh, it would have been live. So when I saw that video, I was like, he’s alive? I was like, oh this is, this could have been rough.
Myles E. Johnson: Like, I hear you on the sandwich thing. It just reminds me that, I believe it was Assata Shakur who got back on the most wanted list in New Jersey. Like, as I believe Cory Booker just did that. And I’ve, you know, researched what Assata Shakur is um, what she is in Cuba for, exiled in Cuba for. So it’s an interesting volume turned down on the radicalism. And I think that, again, we’re just not as serious as to what we’re looking at. I’m not saying anybody should go around shooting nobody or anything like that, but it does become a little bit um humorous to me when I think about, oh, at the time, right now Assata Shakur, her history is being brought back up in order to so Cory Booker can pose himself as a real, light Republican. And I don’t know, our fight back to that is sandwich throwing or pussy hats or just things that just feel defanged, defanged.
DeRay Mckesson: And just to be clear, Cory did not and does not have the power to put her on the most wanted list. She’s been on the FBI most wanted list forever, but she was, they like sort of reminded the world that she was on the New Jersey most wanted list because he said um, he called her a leader at a conference. And you know, the chant that everybody says, we have nothing to lose but our chains, like the Assata chant, I think he referenced some of that and the police were livid with him about um about the chant. But Cory did not um put Assata on the list. I wanted to talk about MSNBC, which is now gonna be called MSnow. Which, if you ever wanted to completely destroy a brand, this is how you do it. If you wanted to neuter the news of the left, this is absolutely how you’d do it, if you wanted make state media or something, this is how you do it. I saw that and I was like, wow, the Onion is getting so believable. And then I was like, oh no, no, they actually are rebranding MSNBC as MSNow with a bizarre logo and removing the peacock. Like, I thought that was so crazy. What did y’all think?
Sharhonda Bossier: The logo definitely looks like something I created in 1992 in Microsoft Word art, you know what I mean? Like it is bad. Um. I, my first reaction was really like, why are people so bad at branding right now? But I feel like there must be something happening and something intentional that I’m missing here. I did see a meme where um some, you know that um that meme where it’s like the people are about to be hung and the guy looks at somebody who’s coming up onto the, you know, to the platform for the first time he goes, oh, is this your first time kind of thing? Hey, you know what meme I’m talking about. So anyway, they’re like, HBO is looking at MSNBC and they’re like, oh is this you’re first time here? Cause HBO has notoriously tanked its brand over and over again. It branded rebranded, et cetera. Um, I just don’t know what people on the left who are in media spaces are really doing. I’ve seen so many of them go off and try and start their own thing because I think they realize that like the big corporate brands are not where they are going to thrive, particularly if they are people of color. But it’s unclear to me what this will mean for having some sort of counterweight to the extent that one existed to Fox News, right? Because I just don’t know like where you I’m looking at this and I’m like. This looks like something that will come in the weekly shopper ad and I’m never tuning in.
Myles E. Johnson: I think the problem is y’all weren’t tuning in. [laughter] I think that’s the problem I think that was the problem to begin with. Yeah, I didn’t have the same reaction as you all did to the rebrand. MSNBC never felt like a safe haven media place for the left. It felt like a safe-haven media place for light Republicans, the neoliberal type and that kind of news bubble. So anybody–
Sharhonda Bossier: Interesting.
Myles E. Johnson: –who’s like four, like I would say like maybe like 40, 45 and above, like that’s where they get their news from. So I know that’s what my aunt’s watching, but it kind of it always felt like that brand could be open to just scooting more to the to the center or to the right in order to court more people. Of course Fox will never do that um because A, it doesn’t have to, but then also, they understand their brand more. But I think MSNBC is like, oh, well, we actually have a little bit more room to play with now that we got rid of Joy Reid and and a few other people. So we actually can make this more of a neutral brand. And part of being neutral is also being boring and ugly, like if I’m being honest with you. So I understand those brand choices of not being too slick, not being too um too cute because all like really look at Republican stuff like and and conservative stuff. It needs to be a little ugly a little not slick not as um maybe something like you said in 1992 that’s the heyday for for talk radio and Republicans like all those things could have been very much so thought about and decided on because they’re trying to court new viewerships because people who are on the left specifically when you think about young people are not watching MSNBC because it’s too conservative for them and it’s and it holds out too many people. It holds out too many people.
DeRay Mckesson: I always thought about it as so left. It’s so interesting that you’re like middle at best. And I’m like I thought MSNBC was left.
Sharhonda Bossier: I will say, I spent much of last year dating an MSNBC Democrat, and that’s what I used to call him, because we would talk about stuff, and I’d be like, where did you hear that? And then I would be like oh, no, this is like, let me send you something else on this.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh that’s interesting.
Myles E. Johnson: It reminds me, when I was when I told y’all about blue maga being a pejorative that I learned or derogatory term that I learned, that is like where I first would hear it too when people were talking about MSNBCs, like, oh, blue magas over there. And they really fashioned themselves that way with the, with how they kind of got more intense with the anti-Trump stuff. They kind of positioned themselves as blue maga, and I and and I think Palestine, of course, was such a um illuminating spot for MSNBC, because it showed you, oh, we’ll talk about race all day. We’ll get you over here to fake talk about reparations all day, we ain’t going to do it, but we’ll let you talk about it. We’ll talk about whatever Trump, you want to go here and call Trump a poopy doggy head? Let’s go. I think Israel is committing genocide, oh, no, girl, we can’t, that’s too left, you know. I think that we need to totally have a radical um reimagining or or or disembodiment of the current political financial systems that we have, and nothing else is the answer. That’s never happening on MSNBC, and I think that there’s a thirst, specifically in young people, for something that’s more to the left and just more radical than MSNBC. And most network and corporations are not willing to do that, so people are looking elsewhere.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Sharhonda, can you tell us what’s going on in the great state of California? Our largest, our most populous state, as they like to remind us time and time again, and the leader of the American economy, the great State of California. Your governor is causing waves and Trump sent the goons on them. Trump sent them, Trump sent the men outside to wrangle up the people outside the press conference.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m cripwalking during this whole thing.
Sharhonda Bossier: I will say that um it seems like our governor is trying to join the ranks of some other democratic leaders who I think are not getting as much shine for a host of reasons in trying to fight back. So what Gavin Newsom has been doing recently is saying that if the Republicans are going to gerrymander Texas in a way that guarantees them additional congressional representation, he will propose and say that we should do the same in California. To ensure that we have really safe democratic seats um because we have the population to do it. And so um he has been positioning himself as like the person who is best positioned to fight Trump on this. He’s been getting a lot of air time as a result, but we’ve also talked about Gavin Newsom over the last few weeks um hobnobbing and rubbing elbows with folks on the right. Right? Um, and so, you know, Gavin Newsom, you know, those of us who live in California and who are progressive have our own issues with him and we are trying to remind ourselves that we are looking for a fighter, not a savior, uh, and he’s decided to fight, uh. And as a result of that, he’s had very much, uh come at me, bro, energy with Trump and Trump is to your point, DeRay, sending the goons.
DeRay Mckesson: Is he popular locally? I can only tell you know I only see him online, so I can’t tell if it’s resonating with Californians.
Sharhonda Bossier: He is not popular locally, especially in places like Los Angeles and San Francisco, where his stance on like affordable housing and homelessness, et cetera, are counter to what progressives and folks on the left think will actually address homelessness and the housing affordability crisis in this state. Uh. And then again, we’ve talked about this, right? People are like, what are you doing interviewing Charlie Kirk, right, like what are doing platforming these people who are hateful and harmful? Uh. But again, people are like well, you go into battle with the team you got, he’s the team we got and he’s at least squaring up. So like my money’s on him for right now.
DeRay Mckesson: That’s a good book title. You go into the battle with the team you got. That’s going to be my book. I will credit you, Sharhonda. That’s gonna be one of my organizing lessons. You fight with the people you got! Myles, what’s your read on Newsom? Are you intrigued when you see him on the news?
Myles E. Johnson: No, I’ve been very transparent in the group chat that Gavin Newsom, because I have a thing for sociopaths. So, Gavin definitely scratches one of my itches. But now that I’ve actually seen him um I don’t know, just take like the national stage. Here’s my thing with him, and here’s my worry. It’s really about 2028. And I keep on seeing these little battles happening of um J.D. Vance versus Gavin Newsom, like that is already the prediction. My my thing is it scares me because he’s going to be annihilated by the to me, by the base of the left. If Vice President Harris was annihilated in the way that she was because of her choices on Palestine, this kind of like corporate suave kind of political Democrat, I just it just makes me so nervous and, and yeah, it just it just, it just makes me it just makes me nervous. It just kind of shows me that like, oh, wow, when 2028 comes, it’s gonna be just as tight. If Gavin Newsom runs, I’m not voting for Gavin Newsom. Like, I’m gonna be like that’s never I don’t care what’s going on. Like–
DeRay Mckesson: Oh yikes, whew!
Myles E. Johnson: That’s, that’s not a–
DeRay Mckesson: Myles.
Myles E. Johnson: That not a, I’m one singular vote! What’s [?]–
DeRay Mckesson: Oh no!
Sharhonda Bossier: It matters!
DeRay Mckesson: No okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: I just. It matters.
DeRay Mckesson: DM Myles and tell him to tell Myles to vote, y’all. DM Myles.
Myles E. Johnson: Don’t don’t don’t DM me nothing, because I ain’t going to do it. I’m going to DM you my rent and be like, get the hell out of here. What’s your zip code, girl? Um. No, but yeah, I’m not like I’m just totally like, since Obama, I’ve been pretty open about like, since Obama just not playing the imperialist nationalist game with with American presidencies until there’s a real change. So if they’re really not crafting a Zohran type figure who can somehow um hush up the light Republicans and the people who are gonna let’s be honest be dead in the next 20 or 30 years. Um. And stop having them be the people who lead it and start getting the younger people to lead it and getting people who can craft that if they’re just gonna keep on giving us people who remind us of the ’90s or early 2000s and and have horrendous policies when it comes to um giving people the run around around reparations, uh when they’re when they’re actually talking about um uh homelessness and and and talking about financial disparity. And then also when it come to you know this thing that’s going on in Palestine and whatever your background is with Palestine, if you cannot do that, then you’re not getting my vote. Like I already live in the hood, I’m already poor, I’m already I’m already in those circumstances, I already know the people who you’re talking about with health care. What about da da da da? I got that, I need for you to give me a leader who I don’t have to then think about how am I gonna tell my God that I voted for somebody who blew up [?] children? Make it so I don’t have to say that and then you got my vote and Gavin can’t do that. And I think that for a lot of people, I think me saying that singularly, whatever, I’m one radical voice on a podcast. I think, probably, I’m representing. I think I’m one I think probably, though, I’m more representative of more people who are 35 and younger, people who we see not showing up to vote. I think a lot of us think that way, and I think a lot us are like, oh no, we’ll farm and eat fruit until y’all figure out how to give us a leader who doesn’t have to commit and be complicit in genocide or in poverty and then established in a poverty.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. I talked to a 38 year old who had never voted for the first time this weekend and I was like, I’m sorry, you’ve never voted? And he was like never, never been interested.
Myles E. Johnson: Is he Black?
Sharhonda Bossier: No.
Myles E. Johnson: Was he black.
Sharhonda Bossier: No.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh, what color was he? Well, this is fine.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Not what color is he, Lord.
Myles E. Johnson: No, it’s important.
Sharhonda Bossier: White and from South Carolina, grew up super poor.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: And was just like.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. That so informs me not voting, like like me having to always be and like, there’s just no scare, and like nothing changes. I’m always either I’m getting myself out of it or I’m not. The government it just those things just don’t motivate me.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: And what I can do with my vote is not vote for somebody who’s going to commit genocide and just totally take myself off the narrative.
Sharhonda Bossier: Actually, the reason it came up, sorry, this is, this is is because his mother, who is in her mid-60s, was arrested because she had half a joint in the car and she spent a night in jail. And so he was telling me the story, because, you know, obviously no one wants to hear from their mother that she is spending a night in jail.
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
Sharhonda Bossier: Because she had half a joint in her car. And then that, of course, became a whole spiral about like, who’s in power, who’s in leadership, why none of this works, what people, you, know, the heavy hand of the state, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and was like. I’ve never voted and I was like, wow. So yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Maybe you did not see this, but, and I didn’t even know Spike Lee was working on a Colin Kaepernick docu-series with ESPN. I had no clue this was in the works, but it was in the works and ESPN just announced that they have canceled the, I think it was eight-part documentary that, he has an eight-part docu-series that was to be directed by Spike Lee. And they confirmed on Saturday, August 16th that they have reached an impasse, a creative impasse where they will not be doing the documentary on Colin Kaepernick. I’m surprised they even said they were ever gonna do a documentary on Colin Kapernick.
Myles E. Johnson: I like the term creative impasse.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, because you’re like, is this about content or was it just not good, you know?
DeRay Mckesson: It definitely was the content.
Myles E. Johnson: And I think people don’t care. I think that they probably see those numbers too. I think a lot of those things, it’s like even when I think about this very podcast that we’re on, when we think about so many different things that have been centered around civil rights, if you don’t if you do not have an overwhelmingly white liberal interest in that thing, then you’re gone. And white liberals, for the majority, are really interested in their own, um uh you know the white woman uh kind of like abortion rights, um immigrants, like the Blacks have had their day. And I think like even in the culture, you feel this type of exhaustion around Black topics like, or this kind of, like y’all’s season has passed, we’re onto this one um in the air. And it makes sense that that will be reflected in what gets produced and what gets um created. I think this is just, if you can’t do it with Spike Lee, if you can’t do it with Spike Lee, then it’s not to be done. I think I think that’s what it is.
DeRay Mckesson: Eight parts, too, is a big order. Eight parts.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: You know, and Colin signed a non-disclosure as a part of his settlement with um the NFL, so he can’t comment on it at all, it seems. Um. Okay, but to the news, I wanted to talk about, I don’t know if you saw, but Trump just came out on Truth Social against mail-in ballots. He’s like the mail-in ballot hoax, voter machines, blah, blah blah. He’s going to make sure that we get rid of mail-In ballots. There’s this whole thing. Um, and he called and I quote, he said the Democrats were quote, “virtually unelectable” without mail-in ballots. If you remember, I will never ever forget when Trump started to pull up the, um, the blue post boxes during when he was president during the pandemic, like just ripping them out of the ground and stuff. People couldn’t mail their ballots in. You’re like, this is crazy. I brought it here cause I, I just have never seen such a transparent attack on just voting, like the idea of voting. He is like, we should make it as hard as possible for people to vote. And hopefully the most reliable voters, which are older people in his base, in his mind um will vote. Now what’s interesting is that Republicans actually vote by mail pretty often.
Sharhonda Bossier: Damn yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: And there are some places where Trump would not have won if not for mail-in ballot. So this is not actually like a as partisan as he thinks, but I think what he knows is that the more people that, like, people generally are, you know, don’t want the world to end. So if if more people vote, the Republicans will probably not do well. Uh. So he’s trying to decrease the number. But I bring it here because I, you, know, this is why I asked earlier. I want there to be a backlash. Maybe the organizers like me, we got to figure out how to organize people better. But I’m like, it just feels like too much is happening for us not to be able to weaken his popularity, you know, this is not only hitting Democrats, it’s just hitting Republicans. There are not enough rich people in the country for them to be the base. Like everybody is, most people are not rich. Um. And I’m just like, how long can he still be even moderately popular? I don’t know. But the mail-in ballot thing is just such a naked attempt at screwing over the election process and I’m not even I’m not shocked because I guess you can’t be shocked anymore, but I am like, we got to figure it out.
Myles E. Johnson: And I’ll figure it out first, no. [laughter] Glad you asked, I got some ideas. No um, so kind of like two parts with that, right? I don’t, I don’t and I know I’ve on the podcast have said this and I just, my mind has just changed um since I’ve last said it, which is a thing that should happen, I guess. But um it’s not about, it’s white nationalism, it’s white nationalism, it’s white nationalism. Um. It is the quiet part is how can we get what this country was founded on back to its origins, right? How do we, because we’re not really gonna be able to say Black people are three fifths of the vote, we’re not going to be able to do any of that literally, but how do we get it so white people are deciding their own leadership? Because at the end of the day, America is the house of white people in the White House, the house of white people, and those white people should be the people who decide the destiny of America. And now that we’ve let all of this diversity get out of control, we have to figure out a way to reorientate power back into white folks. So like, that to me is the quietest part. It’s not about if you’re rich, it’s not about if you if his benefits like it’s not about the egg prices, it’s not about any of that [bleep] that you want to kind of pretend it’s about, it’s really about there being people who collude with white nationalism and power distribution and people who don’t and the government making it easier for white nationalism to to take hold and to me that’s what I see when I see these types of decisions or threats. And the other little small part, too, is, again, Epstein, Epstein, Epstin, Epstein. So who knows if he’ll actually do this? But the big thing is I know that this is a trigger point for for for Blue Maga. So I’m going to continue to do this because they’ll talk about this instead of Epstein Epstein Epstein Epstein Epstein there will be nothing. If I was if I was Blue Maga. And I was on that sports team, there will be not a sentence that did not return itself back to the Epstein list. That you couldn’t get me to say anything that did include Epstein, Epstein Epstein, Epstein. I would say it three times like Candyman.
DeRay Mckesson: Well Myles, let me ask you though. Do you think that if the list comes out and he’s on it, do you think that there’ll be a cost to him? Because some people have said that like, you know his base will be like, well, you know they’ve given him a pass on everything else. Do you think the Epstein list will actually be damaging for him?
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I don’t even know if it’s about, oh, I hate giving people who I don’t like uh points. I don’t like giving people good advice who I don’t like. But but um it’s not about the Epstein List. The Epstein list is not the actual goal. The it’s actually good that he keeps the Epstein list hidden, it’s good that he prolongs it because now you have a way to continue to tear him down so that actually no matter who’s on that list the worst thing that can happen is it come out too soon, the the best thing that could happen is that you keep this base and you keep people talking about the fact that there is a pedophilic power ring that is controlling your life and they get to get away with things that you can’t get away with and you continue to make that the narrative and you continue to beat people over the head with this so the so the list being released is not the actual point, that’s not it.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Sharhonda Bossier: So my news this week is about um, I think something that is happening across the country, but that a couple of articles have done a deep dive on with respect to California and Los Angeles in particular, and that is like the collective trauma and grief we have experienced over the past few years, but the past year in particular. Um. So as you know, Los Angeles has uh and the broader LA County area. You know, has experienced severe wildfires that have displaced, you know, hundreds of thousands of people that have destroyed homes that have, you know, decimated a thriving middle-class Black community. On top of that, we’ve had the deployment of the National Guard. We’ve had really intense ICE raids. Um. All of this, of course, like on the heels of what had been the height of the COVID pandemic. Um, and then you layer on top of that, the fact that a lot of the people who have been fighting these wildfires, um, were fighting wildfires without the proper protective gear, right? They didn’t have masks, they didn’t have respirators, et cetera. And so now they are experiencing and in some instances dying from some of the health complications and consequences of that, right? So um, wanted to bring to the pod just these two kind of stories around what’s happening, what’s happening in people’s psyche, um and the impact that that’s having on our well-being here in Southern California. Um. Because I think, one, check on your friends in LA, like we’re not okay. Um. But also, too, I think. You know, as we have talked about the investments that we make in public wellness and wellbeing, I think there’s going to be a significant and growing need for mental health supports, and there’s gonna be a significant and growing need for public funding of healthcare for the people who have fought some of these natural disasters and wildfires for us. So yeah, bringing that to the pod for discussion.
Myles E. Johnson: Shout out to the Californians, sending y’all warmth. I don’t have too much to say on that topic that’s not deeply cynical, but I’ll give you a little diet cynicism. Um. I think California right now is a microcosm, right?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: I think overall, when you look at the data, most Black people who attain um wealth, it does not stay in the family past one or two generations. Um, we, we already know there’s the systemic, um, war going against Black people and Black people as a, as a cultural and as a cultural class since we’ve, since we got here and, and integrated into society. And what to me feels extremely obvious is that within a generation Black people are going to not have any political or cultural power, and that there are moments that we’re seeing right now that are going to ensure the permanent um class position of being Black as being poor. And of course, there will be people who get to ascend that, who get to be you know tokenized out of that. But it is so inaction, it is so happening, it is not going there’s no integration inside of any system that is going to uh prevent that from happening. And um I think when I look at what’s happening in California, it feels like, oh wow, this is everything that’s happening in most Black communities that I see um in America, but it’s like all happening at once on California. It’s like the fires, it’s the it’s the environmental racism on top of the the Democrat corporate uh [bleep] like on top of uh you know the violence in certain communities and all that is happening at one place. And it really makes me feel bad for, you know, my cousins in California, but like it also makes me feel bad for my cousins in Mississippi, my cousin’s in Cincinnati, and everybody else. And that’s what we’re looking at. We’re looking at this kind of what what you know, what Martin Luther King saw. Martin Luther um so, so many Blacks scholars saw by the time, around this time, around the turn of millennium, that you’re gonna see this type of um systemic terroristic attack on Black people as a class to ensure that we don’t gain power. And it’s here and it’s working. And um choices around the environment and choices around policy have only made it so that can um happen even quicker and more intensely, it feels like. And I do feel bad about it.
DeRay Mckesson: I still think that there are more people that believe in a better world and will fight for it than the these people running everything. I just, and then this is like, I’m not cynical about it. Um. But what I am is like we have not figured out how to organize those people. And the organizing model has not updated. It is what keeps me up at night. And I think that a lot of us thought that, you know, technology would be the great equalizer and then insert capitalism. When the rich people can just buy all the technology things and decide what you see, how you see it, when you see it. I think the most penetrating activism around Palestine that really I think can move the needle, happened on TikTok. Like I when TikTok is not native to me, but what was happening on TikTok was so effective. Trump was like, oh no, we gotta get this thing out of here, you know? And then it was like the algorithm changes. And you know, I think that things that we thought were gonna be the equalizer turned out to be just another thing that can be manipulated. And we’ve seen it happen, so. Um. But the Palestinian activism on TikTok gave me, was like a reminder for me that the people are there, that the, I think the base is ready to hear a message that people, that people in power are not interested in them hearing, and that people actually change their minds. I know people who were, like my father, zero on Israel-Palestine, like knows nothing, knew nothing, all of a sudden, he saw some stuff on Instagram before everything changed. And he’s like, DeRay, this ain’t right. He’s like I don’t know, I don’t know a lot of stuff, but he like, this ain’t right. You know, and I saw it change people’s minds.
Myles E. Johnson: I do agree. I think that when it comes to Palestine and TikTok, that that changed a lot of people’s minds, but it didn’t seem to change the people’s mind who wanted to rule the world. So that always is my thing where it’s like, even now, when I look at Cory Booker or Wes Moore, like any of these kind of like little zombie Democrats, I like look at them and I’m like, it’s not even popular for you to do this. Like, you’re not even gonna lie. Like, that is the part that always breaks my head is that usually it’s, oh, if the people want something, the politicians will bend towards it and and do that. And there seems to be some topics now that, oh, we’re not bending towards. And of course, I name Palestine as that. But I’m even thinking about police reform things. I’m thinking about reparations things, I’m thinking about uh fight for 15. There’s so many things that that that people said, yeah, we hear you. We see that you’re changing things because of the internet and because you’re organizing. But we’re going to do that because at the end of the day, we are a business in this country. And that is not good for business. And it seems like that has been the decision.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I think we are not saying dissimilar things. I’m saying that I think that the algorithm change prevented the base the base building that I think would have forced a set of people to make different decisions. And I think that you know, frankly some people I never thought were going to move on Israel and Palestine are moving closer to where I think the base is, and they were like stubbornly refusing to say anything before. And they’re not moving a lot, but I do think the move is happening. But I think that if if the algorithm had not changed, I actually think more people would have moved and stayed further, um further left, like the base, and that would have forced politicians. But I say this to say that, again, what happens when the algorithm can be bought and manipulated? You are screwed. Um. So I’m not hopeless about it, but I am like, whew we gotta figure this out. It’s you, Myles.
Myles E. Johnson: So my news this week is from BBC. I was actually, it’s interesting cause I was going to talk about Ibrahim Traoré like a minute ago, maybe this is months ago now, when I saw that he, the militia that he has kind of took over Burkina Faso. And there was so much um excitement that I saw specifically amongst young men and young Black men on the internet around not just Ibrahim um Traoré, but like also his the representation of it, seeing him sit with Russia and seeing this Black man who’s dark skinned, a lot of symbolism was happening too. So he’s seeing this Black man who has dark skin kind of take power. And I saw a lot of hope be kind of um like wash over people around the idea that a African country can have its own self-determinism. And and and that I saw spark a lot of type of pan-African excitement, you know? And I was going to bring that to the podcast and I’m glad I didn’t, because this story is about how their leadership also put in legislation, some anti-gay, anti um of course, anti-gay marriage, but like things like making homosexual acts a crime, which is something that kind of, of course just puts a certain temperature over a country once you say the act is um that the illegal, that to me, kind of manufactures consent of citizen ran terrorism of gay people. So that’s the news. I think the reason why I wanted to bring that is because I’ve been sitting inside of a certain type of cynicism and nihilism and darkness about the trajectory of the world and the trajectory of this country, not because it’s just because what I think is what what’s happening. You know? And I think that we all have seasons both personally and politically where we have to face darkness and not kind of like hope it away. I think this story in its way kind of uh showed me that there really is no Black queer paradise on this earth. And that there’s always this kind of dance between patriarchal and imperialist powers that you won’t be able to escape and you won’t be able to infiltrate yourself out of. And I think it’s funny for even as much as I know and as um anti-establishment as I like see myself, it was funny that I kind of still romanticize the idea of this like Black leader taking charge, doing things, being a connective global force for other Black people and getting us excited, and then really understand that, oh yeah, that narrative does not include you. There’s nobody who’s speaking about global Black freedom right now who still sees a Black queer person as a part of that idea. And that to me, um it made me sit with a different, not to get super like spiritual or religious, but it made me sit with a different type of discomfort. And you know they say that you should find no other comfort but the comfort that you find in God and stuff. And I think sometimes politically we can want to find comfort in this leader, Newsom or or Harris or Obama, or in my case, in this last time, Ibrahim Traoré. And it’s just not that. We have not deconstructed enough as a global society to really see actual ethical leadership, and that to me is something that we have to deal with and we’re seeing the results of that when it comes to what’s happening in Palestine, these laws happening, what’s happening here. We’re seeing kind of this um the results of of not deconstructing, because when you don’t deconstruct, it’s not just that you don’t know the right pronouns at a party, it’s that you actually stay stagnant and rot actually happens, and that’s how come this world is rotting in front of us, um because we don’t want to go on that deconstruction journey. And now uh yeah, I just I didn’t want to be a black bird around it, but I did want to express that kind of like political disappointment in Ibrahim Traoré, not that any that not that he would hear it or anybody close to him would hear it, but um yeah, I just want to just kind of express some of the news that kind of situates me where I am politically right now and just kind of radically accepting that kind of Afro pessimist reality that we’re dealing with instead of hoping myself into immobility.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think it’s really interesting that the article you share from the BBC talks about opposition from quote unquote “Western powers.” Because when the first wave of these kinds of measures and legislation were taking root across many African countries, a lot of the reporting I saw was very clear about the role of white American evangelicals in pushing for some of that, right? So as white, US-based evangelicals were expanding their missions to African countries. A big part of it was this focus on homosexuality and sexual morality, right? And so I find the absence of a reference to that in this article quite interesting. And I’m wondering and again, like the positioning of quote unquote, “the West” as being opposed to some of these measures, just very contrary to what I’ve seen in previous reporting. And so I’m just curious about that dynamic in Burkina Faso in particular. Um. The other thing that this made me think of, particularly as I’m always thinking about what the U.S. is exporting. Is the conversations that are also happening here, like at home about homosexuality and homosexual acts and the criminalizing of homosexuality and um how close I think we are to seeing some of this stuff happen at home too, right? And I think sometimes the reporting that we see uh in like the BBC and other sort of quote unquote, “Western based outlets” is always about how these countries are backwards, right. And I just think that we need to remember that um some of this is also a testing ground for what will be possible here, right? Um. Which is, you know, kind of what I am, what I am thinking about. You know, also as a woman who likes to travel a lot and who is always like a, where are the real people? Not where are the resorts traveler? You know? I also think a lot about um you know, where it’s safe for me to go and where it isn’t safe for to go, right? Um. And it’s hard to think about wanting to travel more on the continent and feeling like those places might be really unsafe for me for a host of reasons, you know? Um. And yeah, I don’t know. None of those are like coherent thoughts, but they’re all of my thoughts, you know.
Myles E. Johnson: What you just said to me that was my analysis what you just said. I do believe that and you can even see it when it comes to like Israel right so like part of Israel’s branding is that it’s “the one place that gay people can go in the Middle East,” quote unquote, so I do think that strategically putting certain things intact and making something seem dangerous for a certain type of like what they see as Western colonization. So once you make something okay for gay people, then they come and then you’re a tourist town and then all of a sudden you have these type of people extracting your resources and your money and from your culture. So sometimes saying, oh, we’re not gonna be Westernized and open LGBT feels like a choice to kind of insulate and protect the culture that’s already there, even if it um puts the actual citizens who are queer, who are gay, in complete danger. Um. But that that was my analysis, is to keep the me’s and you’s out. And be like, don’t bring don’t bring that [bleep] over here.
DeRay Mckesson: It just made me really sad. I was like, wow, this is, like you, Myles, you know, I first came to know that he was the leader because it was like he donated his salary and fighting for, you know the orphans. And then you’re like, where did this, you’re, like uh, I the thing that I always get confused about with homosexuality, and I get the culture war stuff, but I’m like, of all the things happening, I’m like it’s, you know, we got, people ain’t got no food, the kids can’t read. You’re like there are so many actual things to deal with and you’re like, how does this even like come into the fold? I don’t know. It just like, ah!
Myles E. Johnson: Cause of morals.
Sharhonda Bossier: They’re tapping into people’s sense of disgust, too. Right?
Myles E. Johnson: And it yeah, but it’s that morals, like to me, like, that’s how come we get the president we get, because he got voted in because of abortion, he got voted in, because of gay marriage, he got voted in because of all the things that he will reverse, because people want to part of people feeling secure and safe is feeling like there is sound moral direction and clarity, and there is nothing more deviant to people. Specifically, specifically somebody who’s heterosexual, who’s like, I don’t even understand that biological impulse to begin with of being homosexual.
Sharhonda Bossier: Right.
Myles E. Johnson: But there’s nothing more deviant morally to people than having queerness in their society. So that is a cheap way. All you gotta do is sign some papers to show that, oh, there’s new direction and new leadership and new security happening in your country or in your state or you know wherever you are.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I don’t, I have nothing deep. Y’all had better analysis than I have on this one. It just made me sad. And I’m like, and I actually didn’t see this at all Myles. So if you hadn’t put it on, like this didn’t, this was on zero socials of mine. I didn’t see it, hadn’t heard about it. Um. And it just made sad, and I you know, it does talk about, I knew that Ghana was um, the president is not signing that law, right? To like criminalize homosexuality, perhaps for financial reasons, but but is not signing it.
Myles E. Johnson: You know, that big returns happening, and I’m sure I’m sure Ghana saw when that big return happens and said, oh my goodness, the water that our cousins left on was a little sweet. And in order for us to get this American money, we might need to we might need to be open to it. So we know that that is part of the re– you know part of the reason is because they want more Western dollars.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Sharhonda Bossier: Today, we have Tre Johnson with us on the pod, really excited for Tre to join us. Tre is a writer on race and culture and politics, and Tre’s work has appeared everywhere from Wapo to Rolling Stone. Tre recently released his first book, Black Genius, at the end of July, and we’re excited to have you join us for this conversation. So Tre, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the People. Myles and I have both really been looking forward to this conversation. I think we both know you from sort of different parts of your life. And so we’re excited to have an opportunity for us to explore with you, like how you know how the capacity in which we both know you has shaped like what you’ve written, the work that’s out in the world now. Um. And so, yeah, just thanks for saying yes. Excited to be here with you today.
Tre Johnson: You need to know I love you too both so much. This is so great.
Myles E. Johnson: And before we get into the conversation too, I just also want to say that Tre is such, of course, somebody who’s writing a book should be a good writer, but Tre, is such a good writer. Like I discovered Tre years ago um when I was 14. [laughter] Got to start, got to start lying now. I was about to say, I’d been like, hmm gotta start lying now, but yeah, I discovered um Tre at such a young age and he just always had such an interesting and keen look on Black culture. So it just feels like a full circle moment to be able to talk to you in this context because I remember having conversations about one day being in this context and here we are talking about your book. So it feels, it feels beautiful to be talking to you today.
Tre Johnson: It’s a trip.
Sharhonda Bossier: Learned of Tre’s like skills as a writer, they were sort of his secret superpower, right? Because we met in the context of him and his work in education. And so, one year he had taken his mom on a trip to Europe and he was like, hey, I’m gonna, you know, send updates to my friends about what’s happening. And I was like oh, he’s a writer writer, you know? Uh. And that’s sort of how I came to came to learn about Tre’s writing prowess. Before Myles and I get into our questions, uh we just wanna ask you who and what is Black Genius about?
Tre Johnson: Yeah, thanks, y’all. And thanks again for having me on. So Black Genius, like you said, Sharhonda, my debut book, it’s a nine chapter um book that’s exploring Black cultural genius through a variety of aspects. So it’s I like to think of the book split into three parts. Um. It kind of covers like cultural terrain, familial and education terrain, and then kind of societal terrain. And so like inside of that, I’m looking at everything, looking at Black Genius from common book perspective from education and my own family’s background. I’m also exploring like more abstract things like celebration, performance and like surveillance. So yeah, it’s a combination of like memoir work cultural analysis and pop culture. Oh man, I don’t think there’s ever not been a good time to be writing about Black cultural genius. I like my agent um uh Sabrina, my editor Lashawna have both been talking about how it’s been an evergreen topic for a long overdue conversation I think we’ve always undermined and underappreciated what Black genius and cultural geniuses look like inside of the Black American experience and now more than ever feels like people are hungry for this conversation. But I think it’s always been a conversation people wanted to have.
Sharhonda Bossier: Before we sort of dive into the content of the book though, Tre, I’d love for you to just talk about what it felt like to write a book called Black Genius in this moment, right? Um. It takes years to bring books to life, right? And so you sort of get this deal and, you know, kind of have space to write in a moment that feels very different culturally and politically, right than the moment in which your book is released. And I’m just wondering if you can talk about that and like how that has felt for you as the person who um you know, one had to do the work and then two knew you were releasing your debut memoir in this moment.
Myles E. Johnson: Could we map that out a little bit more, though, before Tre answers?
Sharhonda Bossier: Sure.
Myles E. Johnson: Because I feel like a lot of people don’t know how, some people know how books work, but some people don’t t know how books work. So how long ago–
Tre Johnson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Tre, did you get the, the, the offer to write this book?
Tre Johnson: Yeah. So before I even dive into that stuff, I just want to thank both of y’all because both of you separately have given me two great gifts in life. Myles, like you’ve given me friendship, but also you like you really did take a chance on me when I was really getting started. And you know I just ran into Miriam from Philadelphia Printworks not too long ago, and I have consistently said I would not be here without people believing in me and people like you and Miriam. So friendship and giving me a chance. And then Sharhonda, similarly, like besides us being married, I think um one of the things that I’ve [laughter] but in all seriousness, like similar, like with Sharhonda, just like such like one of my favorite people, such a just kind, beautiful person. I love on her so much because she’s such a great friend. And that is one gift. And the other gift that she gave me many years ago was Nicole, who is my twin like my actual life twin in my life. And so uh, I think both of you are like I mean there’s maybe made it very easy to say yes to come onto here for all those reasons and a ton more. But uh I just want I didn’t not want to acknowledge those things before you got started. Um, so thank you. In terms of the book though. Uh, so yeah, I was just like talking about this a lot. I try to talk as cleanly and directly about this as possible. So I finished and wrote the proposal fall 2020. I interviewed with three publishing houses, January, 2021. I was lucky enough to get two bids. I chose the bid that I was like, I chose an editor that I wanted to work with, um who at the time was um Amber Oliver um at Tiny Reparations. And um and then I signed a deal in February 2021, and then I got started spring 2021 so like around April and I ultimately finished the manuscript plus copy edits around I think basically December 2024 and the book came out July 29th, 2025.
Myles E. Johnson: So 2020, right? That’s that’s Biden. We’re inside of that world. You know, we’re all um we’re in Target. We’re seeing Juneteenth ice cream. Racism is now being fought and ended because of the things that are happening in 2020. And of course this book deal seems to be routed in in in maybe some of that, maybe some that made it possible. Um. Now during the release, it is Trump, you go into Target and the ice cream is 4th of July again instead of Juneteenth.
Sharhonda Bossier: Well you’re not even supposed to be in Target, Myles. You’re not. [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: It was for research purposes! I had to know what was going on, I was trying to help. But but but yeah, but now now that the political climate has changed, like what is your thoughts around, you know, just when you were asked to you know conceive of the project versus now, like what has been, how has that felt? How, just in your mind, like there’s a different world happening than the one when you gave yourself permission to write this, like how have you been navigating that?
Tre Johnson: It’s so funny becaue this comes up a lot and I think the things I think about is like yes and no, right? Like, yeah, the time is different, but also when would there have ever been a time when people wouldn’t be criticizing the notion of Black genius in this American context? Um. And so, I mean, I think it’s, yeah the art. I’m lucky that the timing of this book has felt resonant for people now because of the Trump time, but you know what what my agent, Sabrina, um who’s amazing. She’s at WME and she’s been so great for me through this whole journey. One of the things that she’s reminded me, because I’ve blown, I blew through my earlier book deadlines. This book was supposed to come out 2022, I think it was. Um. Yeah. And lots of life, everything kind of like confounded the book coming out um then. But uh, you know, we always talked about the idea of the book not being time-bound. It’s a pretty evergreen type of topic and orientation, I think. And I think my like non-sexy answer is that I think there would be an inclination to find a way to make it relevant to whatever time that we were in. Um like I think there could have been a conversation about how this was timely when it came if it came out during Obama’s time. I think it would have been timely during first Trump administration. So I think that for me, the biggest thing is, you know, I don’t want to sound like transcendent of politics, but I think this is, you know ultimately this wasn’t more to anything about what was going on in the world. This is about like my love and appreciation around Black life in general.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think there’s sort of what’s happening in the broader world and broader political context, and I also think you have to contend with what’s happening a little bit like within Black America, which is this push back against or at least a recognition of the limitations of what we have to date been calling like Black excellence, right? And so I’m wondering how you might contend with or how you how you have thought about contending with the idea that like you know, or the question around whether Black genius is sort of an evolution of the concept of Black excellence and Black exceptionalism, especially at a moment when so many of us are contending with the limitations of that and its impact on us as sort of like a broader people.
Tre Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I fucking this comes up a lot. I fucking hate like the Black excellence, like mantra it just or I hate how it’s talked about by folks that I just don’t [bleep] with. Like so I mean I think I think there’s a strain of particularly Black folk who use Black excellence as a hierarchical stance around. It’s like a it’s like a post Obama coded way of talking about being part of the talented tent in a lot of ways to me. And I just have no interest in holding that phrase in that context. And Black G is for me, is, you know, the thing that I keep talking about in general is that um you know when I set out to do the book over time I quickly found I figured out that like I wanted to talk about I didn’t want to talk bout household names I wanted to talk about households. And so this is about like telling about Black life from the ground up because there is tremendous ingenuity and um opportunity and imagination that exists at every strata of the Black experience, but I think in particular I wanted to kind of keep it as close to two feet on the ground as possible. There are flecks of like more noteworthy household names throughout the book, but the book isn’t premised on talking about those people. Um. They’ve already get a lot of their flowers and shine, and I wanted you to talk about this from a different way. And I think had I talked about it around the household names. I actually think it would have been in conversation with Black excellence. And I think that’s a big reason why I wanted to skew away from that type of stuff. Um. Because I don’t want to play into that. I didn’t want play into that.
Myles E. Johnson: So I hear you when you say that you do not want or desire for like the idea of black genius to be conflated with Black excellence or exceptionalism and that it’s not something you’re looking for. But I’m also interested in because we have to sell books and because Black genius is a short name and because I’m assuming that you’re probably working with a um a white publishing house. And um–
Tre Johnson: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: So I’m curious about like what how are you or if you feel like entering this into the marketplace, Black genius into the market place, like how have you maybe thought of ways to resist that? Because I think that sometimes what happens is something doesn’t need to be the intention for it to happen, right? So if we call something Black genius and then we talk about scenarios or some people or some households like you so named it, we don’t necessarily need to like force it into being Black exceptionalism. It kind of just morphs into that. And if you’re somebody who isn’t already aware of that, it just kind of goes into the marketplace and does that work without us necessarily intentionally doing it. So I’m wondering if there was intentional things that you did to resist it or if the publishers resisted that. Or if you just felt like you know, I’m a nigga trying to get something published. So so it’s all good. [laughter] So so I’m trying my best, but it’s hard to–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: –do all that ducking and weaving and still get something on the bookshelf. So I just, I’m still interested in that that compromise. Because before you answer the question, the reason why I’m kind of poking here is because I do think no matter what, there’s always a compromise. And I’m so curious about somebody expressing what that compromise maybe looks like, maybe in the conversations that you didn’t have um in order to advance this publish, this book, excuse me.
Tre Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s interesting when I hear that question, like the compromise that actually comes up for me when I hear this is, uh, it’s actually where the book ended up, which is that, um, you know, what I first, I keep saying, like, the title came to me first more than anything else. And I was like, I just like I just got a, I’ve just got to follow where this title is taking. Like everyone loves the title. The title sticks for so many reasons. And, you know I think what I felt you know it’s my first time doing doing a book. I got a six figure advance and I try to be very candid about that because I think we always tend to be very opaque about these other things around numbers and money and all this stuff. But I got a six-figure advance. I have this book called Black Genius. I’m this Black writer who got a deal at the height of the 2020 stuff. And I felt like this massive weight in terms of putting together a manuscript. I started thinking like, well, [bleep] like if I got this money, I got this deal, I’m doing this book with this title. The thing I need to do is be as like thorough as possible about um exploring and like defining Black genius. So with my first manuscript, I talk about this all the time, the first manuscript full manuscript I turned in 450 pages because that was me being wholly insecure and scared of getting it wrong. Getting it wrong for me. Losing confidence in the publishing house and with Dutton, um [bleep] up with Black people, like all this stuff. It’s like I need to cover every inch of this thing possible. Um. And the biggest compromise was the one I didn’t want to make, which is what my so I ended up switching. I had editors switch on me through the manuscript process, so Amber, she switched publishing houses, and I got reassigned to Lashonda Anakwa, who is amazing. Um. I felt no material like change in editorial love or support. But when I turned in this manuscript, you know, Lashonda and um Sabrina both kind of had the same message for me, which is like, this is way too academic. You are doing a thing that is counter to what this whole deal and opportunity is about, which is hiding yourself inside of this book. And they were like, you know, you are talking about a series of, you were talking about an abstract concept that you are trying to lead people through an argument on. You need to be the grounding character and voice that carries people through this and so you know for people who have read the book people who are going to read the book like I think my biggest compromise was getting over like the stigma or fear or whatever around like making myself a part of the book called Black genius that felt I was worried that it’s gonna be read as egotistical. I was gonna be I was worried that it was gonna read as like really around that way of like making a case for myself. Um. And I really struggled with, and this is maybe something both of y’all can relate to to some extent too, is that like, I really struggle with like this this initial kind of reaction I had was like, what do you mean I have to, that this book is only credible if I have to unpack my personal experiences and perspectives in it. Like I thought that was, in some respect, I thought that was delegitimizing myself as an intellectual. And I was worried that it fit the conveyor belt of what happens with a lot of Black writers, which is like, your story is only credible if you can feed it through like the vice of pain and trauma and all this other [bleep]. And so I like really struggled with reorienting the book to be to have what it’s ultimately become, which is this hybrid thing of like cultural analysis, but also memoir-like at times, um but also chatty at other times. And um and I just I honestly just didn’t wanna do that. I thought it was too many things, but it was the right call, it was the right call.
Sharhonda Bossier: How did you decide what what stories and anecdotes to elevate? I mean, I will say as someone who knows you, I learned a lot about you in your personal life, right? And like, I think we talk almost every day, right, so–
Tre Johnson: Almost every day. Yeah.
Sharhonda Bossier: And I was like well.
Tre Johnson: As married couples should do.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m gonna say as a wife and husband should do.
Tre Johnson: You know, basically ass shit to celebrate. Yeah.
Sharhonda Bossier: There you go. Um. But like even just like the story of your Pop Pop and the Olympic torch, you know what I mean?
Tre Johnson: Yeah.
Sharhonda Bossier: I was like, oh, I don’t think I I don’t think I knew that story, right? And I knew a lot about your roots. I mean, I think um similar to writing, working in public education and in ed reform and in the nonprofit education space, right, there’s a lot of like, tell us your story and what what brings you to this work, right. Uh. And so there were parts of this that I knew, but this felt I think more vulnerable and more open than I’ve ever experienced you, right? And like it’s on the page now. And I’m wondering two things actually about that. One is like how you decided what to elevate and like now that it’s out in the world, how are you feeling about that?
Tre Johnson: It’s so funny. Like I mean this also comes up a lot for people who are at the intersection of knowing me and having read the book. Like its I think part of me is like disassociated to some level its like I so like in terms of like what I chose to put in, I think I like kind of flattened my brain. I was like, I’m going to put it in whatever personal elements and stories best support the argument in a given chapter and I just I just need to think about it that way. I am so fortunate to know so many people in my life. And um and because of that, I think it’s hard to track the idea of like who feels, you know, I feel like there’s people in my like who do know those stories. And there’s people in my life who don’t know the stories. There’s probably a greater preponderance of people who don’t know these stories, who do you know me. And so it’s I don’t I think the stories are, it’s so interesting to think of the stories as being revelatory because it makes sense when I hear that. It didn’t make sense in the process of crafting um in the process like inserting and crafting, I was just like, oh, when I talk about this thing, this is what inspires me to share about myself. Um. And what’s like, you know, I think, the biggest thing that um Sabrina and Lashonda gave me confidence in is that just this book is mine. This book is mine at the end of the day. And they always they never tried to coax me into telling or doing something different. And so I really kind of saw it as an opportunity as like this is a great chance to talk about of the many people that I love. This is a great chance to thread throughout this, uh my family, and to do so in a way that feels tender that feels respectful that feels illuminating about them and so I think that’s I think that felt like a balance too it’s like I think you know I it’s weird to be someone who has this like public-ish type of profile that people think they like whatever but like I I say all the time I don’t care about that stuff I just want to write I just wanna write and so I I think I’ve always been trying to strike this right balance of okay if I’m gonna be the vessel how do I be a vessel that still brings into the picture, other people and other characters, and that’s what was important to me. And so like, yeah this, even the stories that I tell, they’re usually not me as a singular thing or person. They’re usually me in community with, or family connection with other people. So I think that made it easier to tell some of these stories.
Myles E. Johnson: Because so we’re in like this new creator economy, right? And I think the last time that I remember the last time, not the last time we spoke, but when we first began our friendship, the economy around being a writer and being an artist in digital space um was beginning, but it has totally solidified and shifted. And, and, and I think even in the last five years, we known each other for longer than those five years.
Tre Johnson: Way longer.
Myles E. Johnson: But in the five years it’s like just totally transformed. So I have I guess have this is a two question. A, how have you as a writer kind of learned to navigate digital space in this new kind of digital attention economy? And also, and take your time answering the second one, is there a moment in this book where you kind of reached flow state? Because when I hear 450 pages, I’m gonna be, because I’m a poet, right? I’m really a poet who can write essays, but I’m really a poem in art. So when I hear 450 pages, I say, oh, I would rather, I think I would do prison. I think would do that instead. [laughter]
Sharhonda Bossier: Is flow state the runner’s high of writing? Is that what it is–
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
Sharhonda Bossier: For those of us who are not writers? Okay.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, so the flow state of writing is when you’re just writing and it just is coming through you and it’s all, it should feel almost like you’re channeling something in there and you look up and the time is gone. And of course, every moment in writing can’t be like that, but I’m so used to maybe there being 20 pages where you can’t do that. So I’m just wondering.
Tre Johnson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: So I know that all those moments weren’t flow state, but I am wondering what stories were just just came out of you. Um. And then also the question about the digital economy. I know two different things that have nothing to do with each other, but I had to squeeze it in.
Tre Johnson: No, this is great. Uh. The back of my brain is thinking about the second one. But in terms of the first one, I think it’s largely been easy for me in a sense that like you know I’m on all the platforms that most people are on. But uh I really only really come to [?] deeply with [bleep] Instagram. Like I think it for my type of brain, it’s the right blend of visual and text. Like I think that others just don’t work with my brain the same type of way. And in terms of how I navigate this stuff, it’s like, again, I’m not somebody who cares about follower counts. I’m not chasing after attention and stuff. Like I, it’s weird to it’s to be in a stretch now where I have to be, my focus, my presence, my digital presence has to be focused on promoting and highlighting the book. Cause that feels very salesman-y and brandy and like influencer-y than I typically care to show up. But there’s an economy around books and around moving units and having an opportunity to have ongoing opportunities with my writing and with the book. So like, you know, it’s a dutiful means to an end for something I’ve put a lot of time and effort into and love. At the same time, you know, I think anyone who has followed me will follow me like you’ll see that like, I mean, I, I love writing and so like, it’s not uncommon for me to outside of the book experience, or the height of the Book Experience, to just be writing like reviews of [bleep] that I’m watching or listening to, to like for the longest time I was doing like mini essays on Instagram as like on on main on like some of my posts and stuff. Just because I wanted to, for me, the digital space is about how can I indulge in different forms of writing? How can I just not be in the act of like pitching a permission to share perspectives about things that I’m engaging with? And then how do I just like messily, but also keenly put out my thoughts and feelings about the world. And I’m pretty I’m very much like kind of get in get out with like Instagram. Like I do the things that I want to do and then I’m back off. I don’t want to be sucked into I mean, I just think it’s so bad for I think it’s bad for everybody in general. But I think uh but I think for those folks, you know, I think we’re where folks like you and I, Myles, have lucked out by pure [?] of timing is that I really feel for creatives of any background and age at this point now coming up in these last couple years because it feels more and more like because media has constricted so many spaces to have um to do culture work so many people are now trying to feed themselves through the social media sphere as a way of like developing a voice and platform and stuff and I think it’s such a corrosive orientation to engage with establishing yourself as an artist, but also establishing yourself as an artistic voice. I mean, I feel like I watch a lot of people on these platforms who just who just kind of regurgitate stances that everyone else is doing, and they may do it a little longer. And I’m just like I, that’s gotta suck. It’s just gotta suck, like it just.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
Tre Johnson: Yeah. I think it’s just got to suck.
Myles E. Johnson: So I just wanted to say something to like follow um up that and maybe even like a nugget. And I also just feel like a publishing nugget because uh I was talking to Sharhonda yesterday and I was saying how. I just did not have the easiest time navigating like publishing and getting things that I wanted to write out. And I was very adamant. I was like, I’m not writing a memoir. You know I’m 34 now. You can only imagine how old I was when they were asking me to write my memoir. And I’m like, I don’t even agree with what I said yesterday. Like–
Tre Johnson: Correct. Correct.
Myles E. Johnson: Like I’m like you’re not you’re not getting me. But um also what I would offer to what you were saying, and this is to you as a writer, to publishers. Um. Anybody who wants to get some consulting, anything like that, is that with Black genius, specifically something like that, you now have something that can be an ecosystem. And I’ve been saying this on the podcast forever is that Black people, specifically Black artists have to think about the digital internet as ecosystem. And as and when you have something like Black genius this is a terrain that you can create. So that means that if you did do something that in five years there is a Black kid who is doing something that we can’t even imagine on this phone call right now, you can reconnect it to this ecosystem. And I do think sometimes people who are so about craft, which is beautiful, can overlook the ecosystem potential and digital spaces, be it on YouTube, Instagram, or throw back your own personal site and doing something inventive. And I think that I think that sometimes we miss those um moments of innovation. Um. So so that’s me begging all Black people who are creative and geniuses who I speak to to like not just let go of the internet or say this is for the kids or this is for attention because you already did the hard part and now you can reverse engineer something that when X becomes KKK, and we can’t go on there, we can–
Tre Johnson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: We an have these digital ecosystems that are for us and um have been um not groomed, but molded by our works and our text. You know?
Tre Johnson: And I agree and I appreciate you saying that, Myles. I think the only thing that I will hold the ground on for myself is that like and I think this is also maybe what I would add to this stuff. It’s like I totally understand where you’re coming from. I also think like I’m not trying to overstretch myself in the sense that like now more than ever, you have to be writer, producer, salesman, publicist for yourself, agent for yourself. And you know, my loving response to all this is that I was I was so grateful to, I am truly grateful to have my first book published through a major publishing house. I think there is there are levels. It’s always there are levels to this shit. So like I think what is great about it is that it is great. There’s a great like writer credibility and capital to being like, hey, I’m being published by Dutton, which is underneath the Penguin umbrella. Uh. It is also great to have the largesse of their distribution resources and reach. Like I don’t have to door knock on getting my book on the shelves really anywhere. Um. What I think has been um humbling around this process is that, you know, as craft moves along the conveyor belt and becomes product, there’s just different types of, like the structure of support looks different. And I think what I um what I have grown to appreciate is that at the stage of putting it out into the world as products, there is a template of how people wanna get books moved about in the world. And of those templates what they do not include anymore is the infrastructure of like a book tour and so while I am out on tour doing that now that is largely DIY um it is largely DIY and out of pocket.
Myles E. Johnson: In seriousness, that’s why, like I was saying with the creators, because a lot of people are, their goal is where you’re at. And they’re this, and most people are sweating, rubbing pennies together, and saying, just, um I’m going to do this until I get to the moment that you’re at, and then there will be some nice, well-meaning, neoliberal white people and Black people who will help support me. I’m being for real. And their laughing is why I’m saying I’ll be for real, y’all. But like but like the hope is that there will be some nice, you know, well-meaning people who then plug in and energize your projects and expand it outside of distribution. But I’m thinking about marketing, I’m think about touring, and I think that it’s really important to say, no, the DIY with a major publishing house, those two things don’t necessarily go together in people’s heads. It’s reminding me of um stories of record labels is what it’s reminding of.
Tre Johnson: Yeah, I mean, that’s what I I mean it’s so funny. Nicole Young, who is, again, I mentioned earlier, my twin, who is now actually been working with me um as like a publicist for me, and has been doing amazing, amazing, amazing work um to help me get this book out here in the world. Uh. I mean we’ve talked about this a lot, like one, you know, I that’s I’m so grateful for Nicole, and I want to be frank, like I’m also paying Nicole out of pocket toa help me do to do this reach around the book. Um. And it is this thing that like we’ve talked about is like I feel very what is kind of cool but also frustrating about this is that I do feel like kind of like Master P being on the street being a mixtape artist like selling shit out of the trunk of my and it does it’s not literally selling shit out of the trunk of my car, but you know we are you know, we’re two feet on the ground. We’re trying to go to all the places that a major publishing house like the publishing house can get us connections to Bookstores that they have relationships with but as a book that as a cultural book that you the two of you have now engaged with, like what Nicole and I’ve been working on is all the things that they’re leaving on the table, which is like cultural institutions, Black gatherings, community spaces, third spaces, influential conversations with culture figures and such like all these other things that again, when you are working with someone who your book is a product that is one of three dozen or so that are coming out in a given week, let alone a month. There’s only but so much that the empire is interested in customizing to do for you. And I love what they’ve been able to do for me. I love like they helped knock on open doors um in some situations media wise that I just wouldn’t have the capacity to do. And at the same time, I’m a kid from Trenton and I have known how to fucking hustle and get this book out there and into a lot of people’s hands, but it has meant an investment in my time, investment out of my pocket in a lot of different ways and my energy. You know, I’m like out here on the West Coast. I’m here for like four or five days and I’m trying to hit up. I’ve got three or four events lined up and I kind of got to get in and get out and I got to be onto the next one, the next city. And I, and it is all these things about like you want to strike the balance of making people be in love with and aware of the thing that you’ve been working on and you gotta keep an eye on your expenses and your time like you like those and those things are at a very rich tension for themselves. I would love for people and this is why I try to grab a lot of writers on it’s like especially Black folks it’s that I would love to think that that Black genius. Like I believe in this book. I love this book I also don’t think in a content and product rich society that this book is going to just find people just because it exists in the world. And it’s, for me, it’s too vulnerable and too fragile to just think like, this thing is good enough to stand on its own legs. I got to hold it’s hand. It’s holding my hand too. And we got to run around this world together. And I love all these things. And going back to what you were saying, asking me about before or highlighting before Myles, like as much as I love running around and sitting in rooms and spaces talking with people, my heart of hearts, what I want to be spending my hours doing now that this book is done, is writing my next book. And that is hard because you need to facilitate the confidence and the capital, literal and figurative, to have the opportunity to write again. But wouldn’t anything else that I wanna be doing is writing.
Sharhonda Bossier: You know, my joke about the Beyonce laptop was thinking about, you know, sometimes Beyonce will be on tour and then people will see her carrying her laptop and they’re like, she’s working on new music, you know? And so I’m like, what’s the, how will we know when Tre is working on something new that we should keep an eye out for?
Tre Johnson: I think one of the ways that you’re gonna know is that I’ve been trying to think more and more about creative transparency. Um. There have been periods of time on Instagram that I would story what the prior six to eight months consisted of and looked like as I was constructing the book, both from like a craft perspective but also from a life perspective. I just think people need to understand that. I still think even now, we still have this like kind of romanticized black box perspective about writing, being a writer, like, yes, there’s all these like, yes, I am doing a book tour. Yes, I am with Penguin. Yes. I got this big bigger deal kind of thing. But when you look at like the granularity of all those things, like I can tell people all the time, like I feel like I’ve only just gotten out of the mailroom when it’s gotten when it comes to the writing career and like my stature and writing and stuff. Like I might be an intern now, you know, I’m maybe not sorting mail and like I think it’s important for people to understand and appreciate because it’s how I also want people to appreciate the art that so many people are doing out there. Like this shit’s not easy. There’s a lot of static in the background. And I just want to be open about that. My agent sometimes like gets annoyed because she’s like, don’t tell people like you know people don’t want to know the messy sauce behind like how this stuff gets done. But I think it’s important for people. Like I think people think you just wake up, wipe your ass, and you start writing, and then [bleep]comes out, and people publish it. And it doesn’t work like that.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, and I deeply disagree with that. That’s how come so many of my questions have been around that is because I think where the economy is going, how legacy media is dying. There are so many people who are going through these journeys. So of course this book, Black Genius is great. The one of the, to me, one of the reasons why I wanted to speak to you is because it’s one of those books that kind of, to your point, there’s so many products. This cuts through and I want to and I wanted to do my part to be like, no, this is one of those books, you know? I know you see a lot of Black people publishing things, but these are one of the books that you wanna read. But also I wanna ask about the process because I think so many people wanna know about that process and wanna ground it because I think we’re out of the age of the artist hiding process. I think that that is a part of sharing it.
Tre Johnson: You know, I, so I started, I started public facing culture writing 2017. I got my deal 2021. I busted my ass writing, like, you know, the thing I keep saying is that if you want to be a writer, you actually are agnostic about where are the spaces you get to write. You should just be focused on who’s going to give you the opportunity. Like Myles you’re one of the best editors I’ve worked with and you know you I we worked together at Philadelphia Print works a blog space that most people are not checking for. I don’t mean that in any type of shade way but there’s a massive difference between like I have only I have held the ground on like wanting to work with people who want to work with me and help me be a better writer or person. Um but also I think too you know I think there’s this whole thing about like uh you know I think with the writing craft and like all the stuff. It’s like the thing that I kind of pressure a lot of people about is this, and Sharhonda and I talk about this in our group text too, like we know a lot of people who want to do books and want to be a writer because it is good for the business branding and not because and I think that’s fine. Like I think there are people who want to do books because they want to have a product. And I want to do books because I love the craft of writing and because I’m a writer and I think those are I think those have been conflated more and more now during these times and I think that’s really hard um, but you know, I mean I this book was fucking hard to do. I was I’m really glad that it’s it means so much that you have given it the type of praise that you have given it. And so many other people I know have now because I wanted to do something different. I don’t didn’t know if I could do something different, but I knew I owed it to myself to write the book that I wanted to write and I had a lot of input and support from people around me but you know, I think And grief has been a big theme, as Sharhona knows, for the last couple of years for me in general. And I think part of what I had to do is grieve the idea that I needed to become a certain type. I wanted to embrace a certain type of writer that I knew I could be, but that meant letting go of a lot of identities and a lot and you you talked to me about this years ago, Myles, that you were one of the people who nudged me a long while back, that like, get off of this other track.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
Tre Johnson: Get onto the track. You there is something beating inside of you that is different. Um. And like, yeah, I it’s taken time. I’m 47. I am proud of that. I am glad to be alive. I don’t take it for granted at all. [?].
Myles E. Johnson: Looks 22. So wild. [?] Go ahead.
Tre Johnson: Genes, water, rest you know like that’s I, I can’t take credit for like it’s yeah whatever but you know but I couldn’t have written this book 10 years ago it would have been something totally different. I would have listened to all the masters of the industry of the context of the culture. I would not have had the life experience or the life confidence to push through and write something that felt meaningful and unique to me and to other people. And I hope people who are listening to, I mean, give the book a shot. Like just I just hope people give the book a shot.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I want to say one more thing before we close out and that is I want to thank you for coming to California as part of this book tour because as a Black person who lives on the West Coast, I think people often forget that we are here, right? I’m like, hey, Black culture writers, Black people, like there is an entire experience of Blackness on the west coast that I think often gets overlooked um and so excited to be in community later this week. At one of your L.A. book talks, so thanks for coming.
Tre Johnson: I can’t wait to see you.
Sharhonda Bossier: One last question for you before we close out, and that is uh we ask everyone who’s a guest on the pod what the best piece of advice they’ve ever gotten that has stuck with them is, uh and you share some of that in the book, uh and I know lots of people um constantly are trying to impart wisdom that they’ve gained over the course of their lifetimes with you, and so wondering, like, what’s been sticky, what has stuck you, and what would you like to share with our listeners?
Tre Johnson: In February, my dad died pretty suddenly and um actually was living out here in California. Um. He died in Sacramento, I’ll be in Sacramento on Saturday, which is going to be surreal for so many reasons. But uh of the many takeaways of my dad dying, um I think the biggest piece of advice that I have that I’m also trying to live now is that your biggest capital, your biggest resource is your time. Like, I think what Dad’s death has reminded me is that um, you know, I’ve left jobs, I disrupted my life in so many different types of ways, uncertain, but believing that writing is a purpose that I have. And what’s made it easier to make those decisions is that I more than anything else I need time. And money will come and go. Attention around my writing and myself will come and go. Those things increasingly feel immaterial if I’m focused on doing the thing that I love, which is writing. And and if I am giving myself time to write, I’m loving myself. And I think that’s been, both of those things have been a hard thing for many years, and that’s what I want to hold a ground on. That’s the thing that I want to give people advice on, is that um no matter what your pursuit is or what your purpose is in life, give it time. You have to give it time. Don’t give it anything else. Give it time.
Sharhonda Bossier: I love that.
Myles E. Johnson: I love that.
Sharhonda Bossier: Thanks Tre for joining us.
Tre Johnson: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Myles E. Johnson: Thank you for joining us, Tre. The last thing I want to say, oh, AJ going to eat me up. But I also want to say Tre, you are a good writer, a fantastic writer, you’re a great person and a great you’re a great adult, you’re great person. You’re, like, like that I think and I think because we’re in this climate right now of so many people trying to sell products and so much consumerism and so much um like posturing and performativity around things like Black culture. I love that somebody who really has a love for it is creating and hasn’t lost their zest and is also maintaining their goodness, both in the writing craft, but also in their personhood and letting that dance on the page. And I just wanted to, yeah. [kiss sound] Chef’s kiss, chef’s kiss on the book, chef’s kiss.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. And don’t forget to follow us at Pod Save The People and Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we will see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Charlotte Landes, executive produced by me, and special thanks to our weekly contributors, Myles E. Johnson and Sharhonda Bossier. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
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