• It’s a tense time in international politics right now. And it’s coming at a pretty tough time for the U.S., as President Joe Biden gets ready to hand over the foreign policy reins to President-elect Donald Trump. Syria’s fate is a big question mark as it prepares for a new government, Israel’s war in Gaza is still raging, and Russia and Ukraine are stuck in a stalemate. Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security advisor for President Barack Obama and co-host of Crooked’s ‘Pod Save the World,’ joins us to discuss Biden’s foreign policy legacy and the conflicts Trump inherits.
• And in headlines: President Biden defended his economic policy during a speech at a Brookings Institution event, New York Attorney General Letitia James says her office will not drop the almost $500 million fine Trump owes the state, and former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz gets a new job.

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TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Wednesday, December 11th. I’m Jane Coaston. And this is What a Day the show where we are not giving Kid Rock or Tucker Carlson awards because we are not Donald Trump. And also we have not completely lost our minds. [music break] On today’s show, former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz gets a new job. Yay. And New York Attorney General Letitia James refuses to drop Trump’s civil suit. Let’s get into it. It’s a tense time in international politics right now, and it’s coming at a pretty tough time for the U.S. as President Joe Biden gets ready to hand over U.S. foreign policy to President elect Donald Trump. In Syria after 13 years of civil war, the regime headed by President Bashar al Assad seemed to collapse in just days. Syrians are still celebrating Assad’s ouster for good reason. His government is believed to have killed and tortured hundreds of thousands of its own people to stay in power. But the new guys, there’s reason for worry. The U.S. considers both Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, the Islamist rebel group that toppled Assad and its leader, Abu Mohammed al-Julani, terrorists. Julani has longtime ties to al Qaeda, though he’s since renounced his association with the organization. Speaking Sunday after Assad and his family fled to Moscow, President Biden struck a cautious tone as he celebrated Assad’s collapse. 

[clip of President Joe Biden] We will remain vigilant. Make no mistake, some of the rebel groups that took down Assad have their own grim record of terrorism and human, human right abuses. We’ve taken note of statements by the leaders of these rebel groups in recent days, and they’re saying the right things now. But as they take on greater responsibility, we will assess not just their words, but their actions. 

Jane Coaston: With Assad’s ouster, Israeli troops moved into the demilitarized buffer zone in southern Syria for the first time in 50 years. And on Tuesday, Israel said it launched nearly 500 strikes in Syria, hitting airfields, Navy ships, weapons stockpiles and other military sites. It’s just the latest conflict Israel has involved itself in. Fighting with Hezbollah in Lebanon has died down after a cease fire deal was struck. But Israel’s war in Gaza rages on, and this month, Amnesty International became the first international human rights group to accuse Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. So far, more than 40,000 Palestinians have died in the war and dozens of Israeli hostages still haven’t been returned. In Europe, Ukraine’s war with Russia is stuck in a stalemate. And Georgia, another former Soviet satellite country, is looking a lot like Ukraine did a decade ago with protests threatening the stability of a government with ties to Russia. Once Biden leaves the White House, President elect Donald Trump will have to take a point on managing all of this, whether he wants to or not. And my guess is he does not. So to talk about Biden’s foreign policy legacy and the conflicts Trump is inheriting, I talked to Crooked’s Ben Rhodes. He served as President Obama’s deputy national security advisor. And he co-hosts Pod Save The World. Ben, welcome back to What a Day. 

Ben Rhodes: Thank you. 

Jane Coaston: So let’s start with what’s happening in Syria. 

Ben Rhodes: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: Because it seems to have caught the entire world by surprise. We’ve seeing the U.S. carry out some bombing campaigns on ISIS strongholds in Syria in recent days. ISIS is back? So what’s behind these strikes? 

Ben Rhodes: I think what’s happening now is the future of Syria is up for grabs. And the U.S. doesn’t want ISIS to use this moment of kind of chaos and disruption to reestablish itself. And so the U.S. is, you know, whatever list we have of suspected ISIS targets, I think the U.S. is going after those. The U.S. generally had operated in eastern Syria. With Assad gone, now there are other parts of Syria where the U.S. is not generally taking military action, at least not regularly in the past. And so I think they’re going after ISIS targets in places like central Syria to make sure they don’t get a foothold here. 

Jane Coaston: Trump campaigned on a more isolationist approach to U.S. foreign policy, though that’s always been a little confusing because he’ll simultaneously want to bomb everything. 

Ben Rhodes: Yeah yeah yeah. 

Jane Coaston: But also keep us out of war. And on Truth Social this weekend, he said, this is not our fight. But what are the risks of him keeping the U.S. out of this? Can he keep the U.S. out of this, given that there are already troops there? 

Ben Rhodes: The U.S. is already involved. Right. We have 900 troops on the ground. We are the lifeline to some of the forces that fought ISIS with us. Um. Why should we want to be involved? Well, yes, there’s the obvious ISIS point. There’s the humanitarian need for a country that is emerging from 13 years of war. There are millions of refugees, including in Europe, who would like to go home um and are are making this transition more successful through our engagement. We’ll help all those interests if if we’re just hands off um it’s not like we’re not still having influence. We are. 

Jane Coaston: And what are the bigger regional risks of letting a power vacuum develop in Syria? 

Ben Rhodes: Well, again, yeah, so if this transition does not work and there’s a return to some kind of civil war, the risks we’ve seen from the past can be the reemergence of ISIS because it thrives in kind of conflict zones. It can be more refugees leaving the country. It can be um a return to some form of Iranian or Russian influence. It can also kind of be instability that moves across borders. You know, neighboring states like Lebanon that have already you know been through war. Um. Could kind of get drawn in. So that’d be bad. The other point is just the missed opportunity, though, because it’d be a very good thing if Syria can finally stabilize. People can go home um and some kind of governance can emerge from this transition period. So huge risks, but also huge opportunities lost if the U.S. doesn’t support that kind of transition. 

Jane Coaston: Looking just south of Syria to Israel and its ongoing war in Gaza, this is an issue that has deeply divided the Democratic Party for more than a year now. Why do you think that Biden ultimately never broke publicly with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to try and force an end to this war? 

Ben Rhodes: I think he made a terrible mistake. I think there probably are different reasons for that. One, he kind of lives in the past where, you know, you defacto literally it’s his term, hug Israel and embrace them and kind of don’t impose any conditions on assistance to Israel. I mean, we went through a debate actually in the 2020 primary where each candidate was asked, would you ever impose any conditions on Israel? And Joe Biden was one of the only candidates who said, no, never. You know, so that’s basically saying I will never use leverage on you. Um. So some of that is, I think, personal belief that that’s just how you you operate. I think some of that was just a true incapacity to see the scale of the suffering in Gaza and be moved by that. I think some of that bluntly was he had donors that were, you know, very pro-Israel. And when he announced one weapons shipment being delayed, he got a lot of blowback from those people and kind of folded immediately. So I don’t know. There are a lot of reasons and none of them, the outcome is not good, though, especially for for the Palestinian people. 

Jane Coaston: In some ways, though, and I would say perhaps intentionally and unintentionally, is Biden leaving the U.S. and the incoming Trump administration on potentially better footing in the Middle East because Hamas and Hezbollah have been devastated, Iran has been significantly weakened because of this and what took place in Syria. And you have Syria with President Bashar al-Assad, who was able to stay in power with the help of Iran and Russia. He’s now fled the country. Are things better now in any way? 

Ben Rhodes: Uh. I mean, look, I guess you could. Yes, in the sense that, um you know, if you just look at this as a scorecard, Iran is weaker today than they were a year and a half ago. Hezbollah has obviously been hugely damaged. Um. At the same time, I mean, Gaza is destroyed. Um. That’s a problem. You know, it’s a human problem, a moral problem, but it’s also who’s going to rebuild that? The West Bank is a tinderbox that could be hugely destabilizing if Palestinians are kind of pushed out, you know, ethnically cleansed or driven out of either the West Bank or Gaza, that’s likely to destabilize Jordan, where you already have a huge Palestinian population. There’s a lot of anger at the government for not doing more to stand up to Israel. Um. Could destabilize other neighboring countries. Iran has almost enough material for a nuclear weapon. Um. If they chose to weaponize that, that would be hugely destabilizing. So sure our our adversaries are weaker, you know. But, I mean, this point I often make is that that doesn’t necessarily translate into like everything is therefore fixed or better. The US has taken a huge hit internationally with its credibility um because we’re very isolated in the kind of support we provide Israel. So, you know, it’s a pretty mixed bag here. And uh and I think the Middle East is going to be in some degree of conflict for some time to come here. 

Jane Coaston: And finally, I want to get to the war in Ukraine. The Biden administration has sent Ukraine tens of billions of dollars in military aid since Russia invaded almost three years ago. But the war is stuck in kind of a stalemate, which when the war began, I think a lot of people expected Russia to win pretty quickly. And it’s actually, I think, very impressive that that did not take place. But would you consider Biden’s handling of Ukraine to be a success or failure of his presidency at this point? 

Ben Rhodes: I mean, it’s um it’s a success in the sense that, yes, uh I think Ukraine, you know, a lot of people predicted its collapse. Uh. It’s above all, to their credit that they chose to stand and fight. Zelenskyy chose to stay. But that initial support from the Biden administration, that kind of overwhelming, you know, arming and budgetary support for the Ukrainian state kind of allowed it to survive. That’s the success side of the equation. But the other side of it is this isn’t over yet. I mean, I think there is a little bit of a premature triumphalism in those initial months that that Russia had been beaten. Actually, what’s happened is it’s a stalemate favoring Russia. Um. They’ve taken a bunch of territory. Um. They’ve fortified kind of their lines. So Ukraine has trouble making offensive gains to take back their territory. Russia’s bigger and they’re using that size advantage to kind of grind down the Ukrainians and take more and more territory. Um. The US sanctions on Russia have not really worked. Europe’s been a bit destabilized because of our own sanctions, because their energy prices are getting higher and that’s kind of fueling the far right. So like the Middle East this is, you know, there’s there’s a core success of keeping uh the Ukrainian government above water. But um but right now, it’s actually not looking that great. 

Jane Coaston: And Biden surely cannot be happy that Trump, who is a big admirer of Putin and strong men in general, will be inheriting this war. 

Ben Rhodes: Yeah. 

Jane Coaston: What are the long term risks of the war in Ukraine ending in anything other than a Russian defeat? 

Ben Rhodes: Well, I think the long term risks, but first and foremost to Ukraine, if if you know there, any peace deal in the coming months, will, you know, likely even the Ukrainians won’t say this, but the Russians occupy a bunch of territory, you know, almost 20% of the Ukrainian state. And and they’ll solidify that control and then they might come back and threaten Ukraine at a future time like they did, you know, when they invaded in 2022. Um. I also think that there’s a risk that if the sense is the US is out of this, we don’t really care um what Putin does in his neighborhood. There are other former Soviet republics like Georgia, where you see a big power grab right now. The opposition is being arrested. Moldova, where Russia controls a piece of territory. You could start to see Russia begin to try to, you know, pull those countries under their control. I’m not somebody that thinks like Putin’s going to march into Europe tomorrow. Um uh, but I do think that, you know, Russian backed leaders um are feeling stronger, like Serbia is not a country that, you know, a lot of Americans follow closely. But there’s a Russian backed kind of nationalist who has designs again on Kosovo. So we could just kind of be in a world again where European security is in question. Right. And and that’s not great. 

Jane Coaston: What do you think Biden’s foreign policy legacy will be? 

Ben Rhodes: I think that the the strongest point of it, um I guess the two things they point to right Ukraine, um the kind of survival of Ukraine and the unity among NATO and support in Ukraine, the expansion of NATO to include two new members. Um. That’s part of the legacy. Um. But at the end of the day, I think Gaza’s going to stand out for a lot of people. You know, that was the most prominent thing they did the last year. And I don’t think it’s going to age well. I think we’re going to learn that a lot more people were killed in Gaza than we’re even aware of today. And and frankly, it’s you know, it’s it’s hard to kind of evaluate a legacy that doesn’t, you know, take account for the fact that it’s Biden years are basically a parentheses between two Trump terms. You know so it’s not going to leave a huge footprint probably um on on US foreign policy. 

Jane Coaston: Ben, as always, thank you so much for being here. 

Ben Rhodes: Thanks a lot. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser for President Barack Obama and co-host of Crooked’s Pod Save The World. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment. But if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: And now the news. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of President Joe Biden] I pray to God the president elect throws away Project 2025. I think it’d be an economic disaster.

Jane Coaston: President Biden spoke on Tuesday to defend his economic policy over the past four years and warned folks about the dangers of President elect Donald Trump’s economic agenda. At a Brookings Institution event in DC, Biden lauded his administration’s passage of landmark legislation like the American Rescue Plan that paid out checks to people and their families during the pandemic. He also pointed to the Chips in Science Act and the Inflation Reduction Act. Biden acknowledged that while the economy is better and inflation is down, many Americans are still feeling the financial effects of the pandemic. 

[clip of President Joe Biden] We acted quickly to get inflation down with the help of Republicans and Democrats. Inflation came down to pre-pandemic levels. Wages have increased, but still too many working and middle class families struggle with high prices for housing and groceries and the daily needs of life. 

Jane Coaston: Biden said that Trump could quickly undo all the progress the country has made. The president elect has promised to implement tariffs and cut taxes for billionaires. 

[clip of President Joe Biden] Do we move backward? In my view, backslide to an economy that has benefited those at the top while working people and middle class struggle. 

Jane Coaston: This speech served as Biden’s closing argument to the American public about his economic legacy before he leaves office next month. New York Attorney General Letitia James says her office will not drop the almost half a billion dollars that Donald Trump owes the state. The civil fraud judgment was handed down in February. And it said Trump needed to pay back, quote, “ill gotten gains” from exaggerating his wealth. He did that in order to secure better loans and insurance rates. The number grows by over $100,000 every day that it’s not paid. Trump’s lawyers argued that the civil lawsuit should be dropped because other prosecutors dropped their criminal cases since the election. They also say the suit will interfere with Trump’s presidential duties, to which James said no it won’t because it’s already been settled. And waiting on a decision from an appeals court doesn’t exactly take a lot of time, energy or focus. 

[clip of Matt Gaetz] The best reporting, the best analysis and the most in-depth coverage of the Trump administration is going to come from our team. 

Jane Coaston: Former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz announced that he’s got a new job. One American news network said on Tuesday that Gaetz is joining the ranks with his very own primetime show. The creatively named Matt Gaetz Show will air on the network starting next month. Here’s Gaetz on One America News telling viewers why he’s so excited about his new gig. 

[clip of Matt Gaetz] I’ve got the sources, I’ve got the insights. And there is such a spirit of optimism to unlock the opportunity of America. There’s no place that’s going to cover it better than One America News. 

Jane Coaston: I personally can think of a few places with better coverage. One America News also announced that Gaetz will co-host a new podcast for the network. The Pod describes itself as a vibrant program aimed at a younger Gen-Z audience because allegedly Gaetz has a thing for Gen Zers. The Department of Justice’s internal watchdog revealed that during Trump’s first term, the DOJ secretly acquired the private communications of congressmembers and staffers. That’s according to a report out Tuesday by DOJ Inspector General Michael Horowitz. He said that while trying to investigate media leaks, federal prosecutors obtained phone and text logs of journalists using subpoenas. However, Horowitz suggested that prosecutors may not have told federal courts that some subpoenas involve lawmakers and their aides. Oregon Senator Ron Wyden, and said the report details are, quote, “beyond disturbing.” In a statement, he added that spying on lawmakers threatens, quote, “our constitutional system of checks and balances.” And that’s the news. [music break] One more thing. On November 18th, 1979, 918 people, including nearly 300 children, were murdered at the People’s Temple Agricultural Project in Guyana, otherwise known as Jonestown. They were victims of an American cult. The People’s Temple, a group controlled by a man named Jim Jones. He decided that he would rather see hundreds of people die, some by forced injections with poison, some with poisoned drinks, others by shooting than risk any of his follower’s returning to the United States and telling others what was happening in the compound. And now the Guyanese government wants to turn the site of so much death into a tourist attraction. I first learned about Jonestown when I was a kid and the images of what happened there have never left me. The dead at Jonestown included United States Congressman Leo Ryan, the only congressperson to be assassinated while in office. He went to Jonestown to investigate allegations of abuse and was murdered as he tried to leave. His aide, Jackie Speier, barely survived, shot five times and forced to wait 22 hours for help. She later became a U.S. congressperson herself, and she told an ABC affiliate on Tuesday that she was horrified by the idea of making Jonestown into a sightseeing adventure. 

[clip of Jackie Speier] It’s a bad idea. I don’t think it’s appropriate to aggrandize that kind of cultist activity. 

Jane Coaston: But Rose Sewcharran, whose company will be running private tours at Jonestown, told Politico that it was about time Jonestown became a tourist destination, adding, quote, “We have multiple examples of dark, morbid tourism around the world, including Auschwitz and the Holocaust Museum.” I’ll be honest, when I first read that quote, my first thought was, are you fucking kidding me? Because Auschwitz is not dark, morbid tourism. It is a location of mass murder kept as a memorial to those killed by the Nazis. And a reminder to all of us to never let it happen again. Jonestown was a tragedy. Not just because of what happened, but why it happened. Jones purported to preach racial equality, and the group fought against police brutality and for affordable housing in California. Most of the people who died at Jonestown were African-American, and nearly half are Black women. Jones convinced his followers that only he could save them from racism and segregation. And so many, too many endured rampant physical and sexual abuse from Jones and his cronies because they believed him. They even followed him to Guyana, where he promised his followers a place safe from bias and inequality. And then he killed them in the single largest deliberate loss of American civilian lives prior to 9/11. There is a memorial to those who died at Jonestown, but it’s not in Guyana. It’s in Oakland, California, where 412 of those who died at Jonestown but weren’t claimed by family are buried. There are four plaques listing the names of everyone who died there, including Jones himself. That’s what Jonestown should be, not a tourist attraction or a fun visit for morbid people, but a memorial to the lives of hundreds of people who believed in something and lost everything. [music break]

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Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a review. Celebrate Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson making her Broadway debut. And tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading and not just about how Jackson wrote in one of her admissions essays to Harvard that she wanted, quote, “to fulfill my fantasy of becoming the first Black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage,” like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston. And you can genuinely achieve any of your dreams, even if they involve singing at me. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto. Our producer is Michell Eloy. We had production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. 

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