In This Episode
It’s been a hellish week for our Disunited Kingdom. First Tommy Robinson mobilised ten of thousands in his ‘Unite the Kingdom’ march. Before we could recover from that toxic side show, the headline act arrived: President Trump. He was kept behind a ring of steel in Windsor where he enjoyed British brown nosing at its best from flatterers-in-chief, the Royal Family. What a state we’re in.
Coco and Nish reflect on what they learned about their fellow Brits this week and the conclusion is scary. But before they abandon hope there was another march. Thousands of ‘Stop Trump’ protestors came out onto the streets of London – to hear from a range of the UK’s loudest progressive voices, from Zarah Sultana, to Zack Polanski and Jeremy Corbyn. Two protests, two faces of Britain. Can we ever bridge the divide?
Finally – to round off the show, an injection of hope. Josie Naughton CEO of charity ‘Choose Love’ joins the pod to show us that there definitely is a way through this.
USEFUL LINKS
Choose Love
https://choose.love/
Stop Trump Coalition
https://stoptrump.org.uk/protest/
Guests
Josie Naughton
Zarah Sultana
Zack Polanski
Jeremy Corbyn
George Monbiot
Zoe Gardener
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TRANSCRIPT
[AD]
Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK, I’m Nish Kumar.
Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan, and this week, we’re talking about Tommy Robinson, actually, sorry, his full name, convicted stalker, Tommy Robinson’s far right rally.
Nish Kumar Well, his full name is actually convicted stalker Stephen Yaxley-Lennon’s far-right rally.
Coco Khan Oh
Nish Kumar But yes, we’ll be talking about that and talking about the seeming breakdown of social cohesion in the United Kingdom and what we can possibly do about it.
Coco Khan And of course, we have to talk about the political fallout for Stama after firing our ambassador to the US, Peter Mandelson.
Nish Kumar And speaking of the US, Donald Trump is in town and I’m going down to meet some of the people protesting against his reign of terror.
Coco Khan And later, we’re going to channel some positivity with the founder of Choose Love, Josie Naughton.
Nish Kumar Well, listen, elephant in the room, we are not in our studio. Let’s just get it all out on the table. We sometimes record this out of order, the magic of the media. So we interviewed Josie, which you will hear later, which was an absolutely brilliant conversation. And then as soon as the interview finished, all of the power in the studio went out because of what I believe to be a deep state conspiracy.
Coco Khan Yes, they wanted to cut off our Radical Left podcast!
Nish Kumar We were about to name names in the Epstein file.
Coco Khan So now we have decamped to a pub, which actually I would like to say that if this was 30P Lee and Nigel Farage, they would be choosing to be in a pub. So actually, this is maybe an opportunity for us, a chrisatunity for listeners to the podcast of recent episodes. That’s the theme of this show.
Nish Kumar Unlike politicians doing a photo op in a pub though, it’s half past midday and I cannot stomach a pint of real ale while the clock still reads 12.
Coco Khan It was on the way here when we were leaving our now-in-darkness studio to come here to the pub. Because of the deep state conspiracy? Because of deep state conspiracies, exactly. I was just reading online about the UK power grid and it’s like need to upgrade and some of the issues with it. And I thought to myself, conspiracy or incompetence?
Nish Kumar Well, like all conspiracies, the root of it is actually some serious administrative failures that are actually quite complicated and that would require longer term solutions. And instead of doing that, it’s just easier to go, it was the goddamn deep state and the CIA and the FBI and Jimmy Carr.
Coco Khan Anyway, let’s move on, let us move on. I don’t think this joke, laddie, you’re the comedian.
Nish Kumar The deep state conspiracy has put something into Coco’s brain.
Coco Khan Okay. Something was.
Nish Kumar Something was placed in Coco’s cereal by the deep state.
Coco Khan So over the weekend, a march grabbed the attention of the nation for all the wrong reasons. Misleadingly named Unite the Kingdom, the far right rally organized by convicted stalker Tommy Robinson has dominated headlines and has left many of us feeling, I mean, I’ll just talk to myself, I’m feeling very ground down and I feel shit, mate, actually.
Nish Kumar Yes, some of the images coming out of the rally were very intense. It was a large, mostly white and male crowd draped in St. George and Union Jack flags descending on Westminster demanding a sort of slightly incoherent mix of things. So there was an end to asylum, another general election, and some banners calling for the banning of any public expression of religion beside Christianity, some calling for banning LGBTQIA plus ideology. Though I doubt they included that many letters in some of the banners. But yeah, it was it was a sort of incoherent mix of anger, some of which seemed to be centered around the recent assassination of the American right-wing activist Charlie Kirk.
Coco Khan Yes, and of course, don’t forget protecting women and girls, because of course convicted stalker Toby Robinson is the perfect person to be protecting women.
Nish Kumar It’s pretty disturbing also as everything seemingly that feels disturbing to reasonable people these days. It also somehow involved Elon Musk who appeared via video link.
Clip Whether you choose violence or not, violence is coming to you. You either fight back or you die.
Coco Khan Every time I hear that quote, it really gives me the chills, honestly.
Nish Kumar Yes, I mean, how are you feeling?
Coco Khan I feel that as a journalist, it’s my job to understand how this came about and to understand the people that are there. As a leftist, as someone who believes in progressive politics, it’s our job to find the humanity and to build coalition. On a personal level, though, you know, there is a part of me that is feeling, I’m feeling furious, I’m feel angry, and there’s a part me that’s like, I don’t… Right now, I don’t want to understand the people that marched in that because I’m angry. I want to be in, I feel like I’m entitled to have this little moment of being angry before we build some bridges because the fact of the matter is they wouldn’t see my humanity. They wouldn’t to people who have a face like me. Who have a surname like mine, who are from backgrounds like mine as being human and worthy of compassion. So honestly, I’m hurt, I am sad. And seeing Elon Musk, just hearing this man from his no doubt gated community, from his heavily body guarded home, talking about us and violence is coming for us and we have to do something, you’re not doing anything. I mean, he’s a tech billionaire and he’s interested in making sure that we don’t organize to take his wealth away.
Nish Kumar Yes, look, a lot of us are existing in a state of hypervigilance.
Coco Khan Mmm.
Nish Kumar There’s a lot of concern being expressed about people traveling on their own. Certainly there was a lot of concern being expressed about people traveling on their own through London on Saturday. And there’s also the emotional reaction, which is inevitable and unavoidable of watching this and thinking, OK, I no longer feel safe in my own country. You know, and I’m sorry to people that will be sat there thinking, well, I was on this march. I mean, they’re probably statistically unlikely to be listening to the podcast. But in case they are, I’m sorry for people who went on that march and thought. Oh, I’m not a racist. I’m just concerned about the future direction of our country. I’m afraid to tell you that that march has made a lot of your friends and neighbors incredibly scared to walk around the streets of their country. That’s the, that’s the reality. And it’s not because every single person on that march is racist, but it is because the leadership and the ideas that underpin the existence of that march are in fact Hostile. They are hostile. The reality is that Stephen Yaxley Lennon is a bad actor. He is a convicted criminal, and he is working in cahoots with Elon Musk. And when you see Yaxely Lennan next to Elon Musk, you understand everything that is going wrong and everything that has been going wrong for the last couple of years, both in our country and abroad. And that is deregulated capital is siding itself with a xenophobic rhetoric that is purely based around a hatred of immigrants. The deregulated capitalists are hoping that you will blame immigrants and asylum seekers and refugees for economic problems vested on them by our ruling class. Everything that we are seeing is a result of misdirected anger. It is not the fault of refugees and asylum-seekers that you cannot see a doctor. That is the fault of… A collapsing economic system that is propping up and enriching men like Elon Musk.
Coco Khan Actually, while we’re talking about this, I do want to mention something that Labour MP Clive Lewis said. So he was one of the first guests on PSUK and he wrote a really interesting thread on his socials about a friend who was on the march. Did you see it?
Nish Kumar Yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah. He was trying to articulate that his friend is not racist, he’s smart, he doesn’t support Robinson or any of the other grifters, but he feels that the government, and this is the quote from his Twitter thread, the government doesn’t listen to me.
Coco Khan Yeah, and so he was saying he wants to feel, this is Clive Lewis’ friend, he wants to feel proud of the country again. And, you know, I’ve been really mulling on that. And I think what it speaks to is that there is a lack of story from the left. It feels like in this battle of ideas and the battles of stories, the right wing narrative, the far right narrative that every problem you have is because of immigrants and asylum seekers and refugees is winning. Now, I would argue the reason that narrative is probably winning is because the people who control the media, particularly social media, tech billionaires like Elon Musk are helping to push that. But fundamentally, I think there is a challenge for us as progressives to say, well, what is our story? What is it? Is it hopeful? Is it, does it draw people in? I’m sure there are people that on that march who went for it also just to be, feel like they’re part of something. To feel like, you know, we have no community left anymore and there’s no way to sort of stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone anymore. We live very atomized lives, very digital lives as well. And I wonder if that is something that we need to soul search about really. I mean obviously we’re a divided country, I think that’s fair, I think it’s well established now, but the one thing that everyone seems to be united on is that everyone hates Keir Starmer. You know I heard some football chants the other day about slagging off Keir starmer, you don’t normally hear political football chans, I mean certain clubs you do but in general yeah Keir Starmer is absolutely
Nish Kumar We’re all frustrated that we are not being delivered the future that was promised to us. I was promised a future that if, because my parents had come to this country, if we worked hard, assimilated, paid our taxes, embraced Britishness, that we would be accepted. Some of the scenes from that march on Saturday suggest that that is not the case. You know, all of the work that… My family and so many of our families have done to assimilate ourselves into British culture and British society, how much money and effort we’ve put into, you know, not just the tax system, but in terms of like participating and being part of our communities. That is that future that was promised to us is not being delivered. So let’s start from there and acknowledge that we have at least that in common, all of us, that the future that was promise to us, is not been delivered. And then ask the question, why is that happening? It’s happening because of a collapsing economic model. And what we desperately, desperately need at this moment is leadership and leadership that actually acknowledges the problems that exist in our society and not leadership that is based on fear of losing the next election. All I see is a political party gripped with a fear of Nigel Farage. And being afraid of Nigel Farage. And so embracing a bit of his rhetoric is not a recipe for political success. It’s a recipe of a political oblivion. Why don’t you ask Keir Starmer, the fucking conservative party, about what happens to you if you try and embrace some of Nigel Farage’s policies as a way of neutralizing him? He doesn’t neutralize it.
Coco Khan Mmmhmm
Nish Kumar It makes him more credible, and it makes you look hypocritical, thus further strengthening him. And Keir Starmer is doing that at his own peril. Speaking of things that Keir Starmer’s doing to hasten his own political demise, let’s talk about Peter Mandelson.
Coco Khan Yeah, yeah. So Starmer’s facing some serious questions about this. It’s, I mean, there’s been questions about Starmer for a long time, but it’s all been coming to a head recently because of this sacking of Peter Mandelson as ambassador to the US, which can I just say he was sacked only a few days after Starmer had backed him. So number 10 says that new information came to light that showed that Mandelson not only stayed in touch with Jeffrey Epstein, but actually urged him to challenge his conviction for sex offenses. That was the last straw. You know, these associations with sex offenders was too much, although Donald Trump is here, so there we go. I have so many thoughts and feelings about it. I couldn’t believe that Mandelsohn was even given the appointment anyway. And, you know people are really, like genuinely talking about it being the end of days, it being end of Starmer’s prime ministership. And I mean, I don’t know how you feel about it, I have really conflicted feelings in the sense that I, you know I don’t like this government, I don’t believe it’s a Labour government, I have, really, been disappointed with Keir Starmer, particularly given his background as a human rights lawyer. However, I am quite terrified of what would take his place.
Nish Kumar That’s, I think, the question that nobody has an answer to. And, you know, the second you start seeing articles with anonymous briefings from ministers from your own party, you do sort of…
Coco Khan Yeah, yeah.
Nish Kumar The bell tolling, because it’s really giving me sort of acid flashbacks to Truss, Sunak, Johnson, you know, the sense that ministers are now happily speaking to journalists about the collapse of the government. But the problem with all of these articles is nobody has proposed a name, right?
Coco Khan Well, I mean, people are talking about Andy Burnham. So he’s the mayor of Manchester. He’s very popular and he is making maneuvers. He’s embedding himself within this organization called Mainstream, which is like a new Labour group for what they call radical realists. It’s serious about a democratic socialist future. I guess you could see it becoming a campaign vehicle for Burnham, kind of like Labour Together was for, you know, starmerism as a whole. But there’s-
Nish Kumar But there’s major obstacles, principle of which Andy Burnham is not an MP, so he’s ineligible to be the leader of the Labour Party.
Coco Khan But senior Labour figures have suggested that there may be a seat in Manchester where an MP is considering standing aside, which would create an opportunity for him. Look, I’m sure they could find a way if this was what happened. I’ll be honest, I wasn’t necessarily thinking of Andy Burnham. But then when I cycled through my mind about who it could be, I recall that so many of the kind of more left leaning Labour MPs had been evicted from party anyway. So, I mean, you know, why not burn them? It’s as good as any. I guess the question for me is, if Starmor wasn’t the PM, would anything actually change?
Nish Kumar It’s not really about who it is now, it’s about what they’re saying and whether what they are saying is actually going to engage with the realities of the problems that this country is facing. In the interim, Stahmer needs to be, I wish I had a more constructive way of saying this, but he needs to stop shitting the bed politically. Because again, whatever you feel about his politics, There is also a sense that he’s not a very effective manager of the Labour Party. And, you know, some of the decision-making processes behind Mandelson’s appointment. Plus the story this week about Paul Avondin, who is a kind of senior Starmer adviser, who’s now resigned after the revelation of a string of inappropriate messages about Labour MP Diane Abbott. I’m not going to repeat any of them because they’re absolutely unpleasant. And as we know, Diane Abbott is a lightning rod for some of the most appalling prejudice, racist and sexist prejudice that sits just beneath the surface of our political culture and really emerges aggressively whenever her name is mentioned. Like the hostility she experiences is absolutely sort of horrifying. How long did he know about these messages? These messages? In 2017 on an internal Labour messaging system. He needs to get better at this. And this is basic stuff.
Coco Khan I could have told you taking Taylor Swift’s tickets was bad, too. This is the problem. I just feel like, you know… This is a problem.
Nish Kumar This is the issue. These things keep coming back to bite him in the ass and they’re not complex political problems. They’re just basic operational things that you as the head of any organization should be able to do.
Coco Khan Even if he was better at managing, which I agree with you that actually this promise of better management hasn’t been met. But even if it had been met, I’m not convinced better management is the solution to the problems we face in Britain. That’s my concern about starmarism as a project. Can it continue? Can he continue? Probably not. What would take its place? Who would do it? I’m feeling enormously hopeful.
[AD]
Nish Kumar Hello! We’re here at Parliament Square right now. Behind us you will be able to see, if you’re watching this, and hear if you are listening to this, a series of sound checks and the assembly of the protesters who have been on the march. They’ve now arrived in Parliament Square, just in the shadow of the Houses of Parliament, for the Stop Trump protest. I’m going to be hosting the speaker stage, so there’s going to be a whole load of speakers coming up to talk about why. Occasions like this are incredibly important to our democracy, I have been asked to do this I’m assuming because more qualified people were unavailable but I will give it my best shot. Let’s hear from some of the people who are going to be speaking and some of the protesters right now.
Clip We’re here because I stand against fascism, I stand against anti-migrant, anti-refugee sentiment.
Clip Trump is a genocide enabler. That’s my main reason for being here. Without him, Israel would be nothing. They would have no opportunity to do what they’ve been doing, which is essentially committing genocide.
Clip And we feel that these policies are detrimental to the world, not only to Britain, but also to America.
Clip The world is very upside down right now, it’s always been upside down, but there’s a horrible man in our ends right now and we don’t want him here, no one wants him here.
Clip Everybody wants to live in a world where everybody’s happy, can eat their own food, pay their own bills, and live a happy life. And him and his cohorts are out to destroy that. And they’re trying to turn us against each other, and we’ve got to stand together.
Clip I’m here because it’s not good enough just to be an ally. You have to actively beat Alton Prowse because there are too many of the other side that prepared for the money where the mouth is. And you can see today that there are no police with riot gear on. They’re all just standing and watching. And that’s the difference between today as in last week and everybody. It’s not enough to stay at home and say you’re not happy about this. You’ll have to actually do something about it because the other side is doing something and they will win. Unless we get loud and proud and loudest.
Nish Kumar Okay, so we’ve heard a lot of people who are protesting, now let’s hear from some of the speakers. Some of whom you might recognize from previous episodes of this show. I’m with Zoe Gardener, friend of the show, and past, future and current guest on Pod Save the UK. And what are you going as, convener?
Zoe Gardener I’m a spokesperson for Stop Trump Correlation today, and generally speaking a researcher and campaigner on migrants’ rights.
Nish Kumar And listen, you’ve been out doing the media rounds, as always, Zoe, doing God’s work, turning up on shows, answering some of the dumbest questions ever been asked in human history.
Zoe Gardener My favorite today is just like, oh so what don’t you like about Donald Trump? I’m like, well how long have we got now?
Nish Kumar Why is it important that we’re doing this today right now for British people?
Zoe Gardener Look, last weekend we saw Tommy Robinson mobilize a really huge movement of people and that movement was funded directly by Elon Musk. Yeah, right, yeah. Elon Musk also funded Donald Trump and got him into power in the United States. So, like, we need to recognize that these movements are connected. It’s the same money and it’s the same narrative and the narrative is that migrants, and especially Muslim men, are a sexual threat to our women. Yeah, yeah, yeah And that narrative has allowed Donald Trump to gain power, and he’s using his power to do a massive transfer of wealth from ordinary US citizens to the very rich. And that’s what they want to do here in the UK, too, and that’s why it’s about us here.
Nish Kumar Please now join me in welcoming to the stage, Member of Parliament, Zarah Sultana!
Zarah Sultana On Saturday, this country witnessed the largest fascist mobilization in decades. But let there be no mistake, they do not represent Britain, we do!
Nish Kumar I’m here with MP Zarah Sultana who has just come off stage at the Trump demo. Zarah, why are events like this important?
Zarah Sultana Because the actions of this government do not reflect what the majority of people in this country want to see or expect. Donald Trump is… Favorable to about 16% of the British public. Everyone else hates him and can’t stand him, yet the red carpet is rolled out for him when we could be using that money for war criminals to fund free school meals. We could use it to heat people’s homes, we could use it to actually tackle poverty, but instead we’ve got a government and a prime minister that is constantly bowing to armed dealers, lobbyists and fascists.
Clip Friends, of course we should have a relationship with an American president but that is very different to what we are seeing today. A man with hands stained in blood for an ongoing genocide having the red carpet, pump and ceremony all rolled out for him and we are gathered here united to say this is not in our name.
Nish Kumar I’m here with the new leader of the Green Party, Zach Polanski. Zach, why is it important for you to attend the demonstration?
Zack Polanski Let’s be straight, we saw on Saturday racist marchers in our streets and it’s really important first and foremost to have something that counts as them, that says that does not represent this country.
Nish Kumar It’s the first time in history somebody has had a second state visit. I mean, that is an unprecedented thing, right? And you all think it’s naive, but Keir Starmer thinks that he can actually curry favor with a man who is so changeable.
Zack Polanski I think it’s beyond naive, I think its dangerous, I also think it is appeasement, again we have not seen a proper confirmation of what happened on Saturday, I know we’ve had some words but actually that required, I believe, a front of a house outside Downing Street, a speech to the country, and then to see him with the pictures of Donald Trump today, just feels like with everything that Donald Trump represents, it’s one of those things where you can’t find words, it is a pit, a feeling in the stomach, and actually That needs challenging. Zach, thank you so much. Thank you so much for hosting.
Nish Kumar There should have been someone else doing this.
Zack Polanski Well, you’re putting your head above the parapet, and I think that’s always important to recognize. My head’s always above the fucking parapet. Your head went a long time ago.
Nish Kumar I’m with Jeremy Corbyn and we’re at the side of the stage that he’s just walked off and we’re both looking at a person who has written the phrase Trump gets on my tits and is firing bubbles into the air and you’re forever blowing bubbles are you pretty pretty bubbles in the air. It’s fair to say we are struggling to stay focused and Jeremy why are demonstrations like this important because there’ll be a lot of people watching this who say why does it matter this is part of an important trading relationship blah blah blah why are things like this so important.
Jeremy Corbyn Well, Trump’s having an organized, prepared and manicured visit where, as I said, he’s not meeting anybody. He’s only challenged the royal family and the prime minister, but obviously he might want to talk to them. But there are a few million other people here who might like to say a word to him. He’s not getting in touch with them or meeting them. I think when people are watching television they need to know that there are some of us here that don’t buy into the Trump agenda of social and economic divisions or racism. Of Elon Musk and others who used to be his very best mates.
Nish Kumar How dangerous a political moment are we in right now, given what we’ve seen on Saturday in terms of, you know, a march led by the man you rightly refer to as Stephen Yaxley Lennon?
Jeremy Corbyn The danger of the moment that we’re in is in policy, right? I think we’re a very dangerous moment, but it’s not a good idea just to keep saying in panic it’s a dangerous moment. We have to be determined to understand why it’s come about, and that is when there’s a lack of an alternative to the economic divisions and poverty in our society, when there’s virtually a triopoly of foreign policy and economic policy in parliament, we need an alternative and that’s where we need the strength to come together. To put forward those ideas.
Nish Kumar I’m with George Monbiot who was just giving a barnstorming speech on stage. George, listen, I’ve been interviewed by various journalists who are here covering the event. He keeps saying to me, what’s the point of stuff like this? I think I have my version of what that answer is, I’m interested in hearing your version of your answer.
George Monbiot So what we do here is to say it is legitimate to dissent. You know, when people see other people, especially people they respect, and my god, we’ve had such an array of heroes today, fantastic, when they see them dissenting, they know it’s okay to diss ent, and that’s how we build the movement, that’s how we, we build something big enough to oppose and overwhelm the far right who themselves are now feeling legitimized.
Nish Kumar Yeah.
George Monbiot Not just by Trump and Farage, but also by this so-called neighbor government.
Nish Kumar Yeah, that’s right. I mean, listen, we’ve got people speaking here, disabled people are going to cuts, Andy’s on stage literally right now as we speak, we also had people from FUN, Justice UK, we had such a… He’s really… Trump has really managed to upset a diverse group of people.
George Monbiot Yeah, see the farmers represented in the last place. Well, can they bring their tractors next time? Please. Because if they bring the tractors, the police don’t touch you. You can spray shit at Parliament, the Police won’t touch.
Nish Kumar You heard it here first guys, tractors break shit is the new form of protest.
Clip Say it loud, say it clear!
Crowd Donald Trump’s not welcome here!
Clip Say it loud, say it clear!
Crowd Donald Trump’s not welcome here!
Nish Kumar So we’ve just finished the demonstration. People are just sort of filing away now behind me. It’s been an incredibly inspiring day. So many brilliant speeches, so many energized people. I think the thing that impressed me the most about this whole event is the breadth of coalition that Stop Trump was able to assemble in this country. You know, we’ve got people here representing groups that are fighting against the genocide in Gaza. We’ve got representatives from disabled people against austerity. We’ve got representatives who are trying to fight for the UK’s farming industry. It is impressive the breadth of the coalition that has assembled here today. And I think that is gonna be really, really important. What’s crucial now is about translating this into actual political currency and building some unity across these groups in a way that translates itself electorally. Because, you know, if you tally up the groups at Donald Trump. Stands against, you know, whether it’s women, working-class people, whether it’s members of the LGBTQIA community, whether its people of color, whether it’s, and this may blow your mind, people who belong to more than one of those categories, you realize that that is a majority of people and it’s about harnessing that in a way that actually makes an impact in national politics. A lot of us would have been watching the scenes from Saturday with a rising sense of horror but we would have I’m doing it. In our own homes on our phones and that can feel incredibly isolating and actually getting out and being amongst people is actually something that combats that isolation and also fosters a sense of community which we’re going to need in the coming years. I’ve been asked repeatedly by journalists who were looking for a sound bite whether this is essentially immature politics, whether there is a reality that the UK needs a trading relationship with the United States of America, what I would say is… The UK needs a trading relationship with America and it has to have diplomatic channels open. Yes that is probably true, but the reality is Keir Starmer has produced something genuinely historic and unfortunately for him it’s not in a good way. Donald Trump is the first person. In the history of this country to have a second state visit extended to them. That matters. That symbolism matters. And I think he’s desperately naive if Starmer thinks that he knows the way to flatter Trump into something that’s actually going to translate into tangible benefits for this country. That suggests he hasn’t sufficiently studied the history of Trump as a man or as a politician. He is eminently changeable. You can flatter him all you want, but he will still turn around and flip you off when it comes to crunch time. So it’s… It’s really important that people express their demonstration to this and I’m really pleased and proud to have been part of it and really thankful to all the people that put it all together.
[AD]
Nish Kumar Through the magic of podcast editing we are now back in the studio and after so much anger and rage across this episode it’s important to consider the inverse emotions.
Coco Khan So has there ever been a time when UK politics was more in need of love, of empathy? There’s no shortage of anger and we do need some of that. But where is the alternative voice, the voice advocating for understanding and persuasion, is it getting drowned out?
Nish Kumar Ten years ago, Josie Naughton started off a grassroots campaign helping refugees as a volunteer, but now runs Choose Love, working with local partners across 50 countries. The charity has raised millions to support displaced people.
Coco Khan PSUK people, you may not know Josie, but you probably know the t-shirt. You might have one. It’s the Choose Love t-shirts. They’ve been worn by lots of quite famous supporters, including Judy Dench, Julia Roberts, and of course, our very own Nish Kumar.
Nish Kumar Yeah, that’s that’s a real drop off.
Coco Khan Ha ha ha.
Nish Kumar From two to three. I’m gonna I’m going to take a shot in the dark and say Julia Roberts’s ones don’t have as much tit sweat on them as mine currently does.
Coco Khan I feel like there’s a charity auction for your tits when I try. They think so. That is in the future.
Josie Naughton Someone’s going to want that for Christmas this year.
Anyway, Josie Naughton, CEO of Choose Love, welcome to Pod Save the UK.
Josie Naughton Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Nish Kumar It’s not often you go, you have to follow an anecdote that involves the phrase tit sweat. It’s nice to see you, Josie.
Josie Naughton It’s very nice to see you too. I am, I think like everyone, like lots of things all at once. It’s a weird time to be alive and be a human, but also, so you’re feeling kind of heartbreak, but also there’s a lot of like energy because we’ve got to be doing better and doing more. So it’s yeah, a lot a lot things at once
Nish Kumar We’re obviously talking to you on the morning of the Trump protest, but also the morning of a huge event that’s happening at Wembley.
Josie Naughton Yes. Together for Palestine.
Nish Kumar Yeah, that’s very exciting.
Josie Naughton It really is, I think. So for anyone that hasn’t seen What Together for Palestine is, it’s a concert at Wembley organized by Brian Eno and several leading Palestinian activists, people from the music community, journalists, actors, artists, all coming together to have a cultural moment that stands in solidarity with the Palestinian people. There hasn’t really been a big cultural moment. You know, I think this is going to kind of be like the live aid, but a lot more culturally appropriate. And of our time, and it’s raising money for three incredible Palestinian-led organizations, and Choose Love will be the kind of flow-through for the funds to get to those organizations.
Coco Khan You’ve been talking about having empathy and compassion to refugees and asylum seekers for a decade, for 10 years. So just take us back to the beginning of that. What made you get involved?
Josie Naughton Um, so I didn’t work in the charity sector at all. I actually worked in music. I was, um, the PA for the manager of Coldplay. I was living in LA. It was kind of like my dream life. Um, and I had come home in the summer of 2015 and in that summer, that’s when the term refugee crisis was coined. So a million people arrived in Europe seeking sanctuary primarily from Syria, but also from Afghanistan, from Iraq, from Eritrea, from Sudan, from the Congo. And I’m sure we all remember those images of the boats arriving in Greece and one particular image of the little boy, Aylan Kurdi, who washed up on the shore of Turkey. And I, like so many other people, I was just watching the news and like, God, this is so awful and this is happening on our doorstep. And kind of, if I’m not going to do something now, then when will I? And so together with some friends, we tried to raise a thousand pounds, gather a round load of tents and sleeping bags. And took them to Calais in Northern France. And I expected to find a kind of big organization there at that time who we would give the money that we’d raised, who we’d give this aid that we’ve managed to collect. And actually what we discovered was there were 5,000 people. They were living in a field. They didn’t have access to any services. And I saw, oh wow, the police are here but they’re actually not helping these people. They’re terrorizing these people and. All of the institutions that I’d kind of believed in weren’t there. And that was the beginning of a journey of like really understanding how the systems of the world work and the humanitarian crises are actually often really manmade. But also I just couldn’t unsee what I’d seen and like so many other people at that time really got involved in organizing and in civil society. And yeah, our organization was born and we’re still here 10 years later.
Coco Khan You bringing up that image of that little boy being carried on the beach. I hadn’t actually thought about that for some time actually. And it really gave me the chills. I remember at that time. The way people had been talking about the refugee crisis was, you know, had the similar xenophobic and racist dog whistles that we hear now today in our debate, but that picture stopped people in their tracks and made people go, oh my God, this is so horrifying. And I don’t know what you think, but I feel like a picture like that wouldn’t move the dial now. I feel that we’ve become so entrenched. I guess with your longer view, having worked in this space for 10 years, where are we now in terms of people’s compassion and empathy.
Josie Naughton You know, yeah, I totally agree. Like, that picture changed the world, and we’re all now used to, like, waking up, looking at our phones and watching a genocide be live-streamed, and you know the images that we, and the videos that we all now kind of have etched into our brains are the kind of things that we would never have imagined 10 years ago. Um, and I would say that the kind of the movement, um, in support of human rights, civil rights, of all of these things has grown, I do really believe that. But simultaneously, obviously, the movement that’s kind of like, you know, focused on hate, on xenophobia, on racism, that has also grown. So we’re living in this much more polarized world. Choose Love, over the years, we’ve always kind of, there’s been big emergency moments that have really galvanized people and we’ve been able to do huge campaigns and raise a huge amount of. Funds because people are just so shocked and I over the last two years we’ve really seen that model kind of change because it’s just every day there there are so many emergencies everywhere there are, so many horrific images and I think people are feeling overwhelmed they’re feeling maybe desensitized they’re, feeling so upset that they kind of have to have to look away so that it’s it’s quite a complicated time in terms of thinking about how people are responding, but people really, really care, but they’re maybe just a bit paralyzed and don’t know what to do.
Nish Kumar In terms of the organization, there’s no way you could have had this in your five and ten year plan that you would end up talking to us about what you’re talking to right now.
Josie Naughton No way. You know, when we first started and people would say, what are you going to be doing in five years? We were so naive and we’d be saying, you know, we want to be out of business. You know where we’re starting to think about what are the root causes for displacement? And everyone kind of really thought that that better world was possible in such a short amount of time. But instead, the number of displaced people in the world doubled since we began. It was 60 million when we started. It’s over 120 million now. And so I think we’ve now kind of really understood that our work is more important than ever, that needs are greater than ever before. And so actually we’re kind of really building an organization for the long term that can support local organizations and invest in communities, because we really believe that that’s the only way that we’re gonna have change. Why do you think that is? Why?
Coco Khan Have politicians not chosen love as it were.
Josie Naughton I ask myself that question quite a lot.
Nish Kumar Because I mean, within the year of Choose Love starting, and the image of Ireland Curdie, which for those of us who saw it, is something that I suspect none of us will ever forget. You know, it’s a child’s dead body, like there shouldn’t be anything that is more emotive than that. But then within a year, the kind of height of the Brexit campaign, Nigel Farage was posing in front of a poster. That had a picture of kind of hordes of brown men coming over under the, you know, and I think it was breaking point was the phrase on that post. Yes, it was. So why has there been this kind of regression do you think?
Josie Naughton I have a lot of conversations about this, and I think back to that time, and Choose Love was quite a radical name to have for an organization at that time. And people would say, like, you’re never going to be taken seriously with a name like that. And the word refugees was so heavily politicized. And actually, I think Choose Love kind of gave people the language to support this movement and support refugees, and it humanized the issue, and that’s what’s so important. I actually wrote a letter. To Yvette Cooper a few weeks ago with one of our partner organizations, Project Pure Hope, who are trying to bring in children from Gaza who desperately need urgent medical care. And the UK has been blocking them coming in, even though all their care is sorted out and everything. They have let a few in now, but I wrote this letter to Yvette Cooper with one or two of our trustees. And we were just talking about she came out to Calais. Way, way back then when we were campaigning for the rights of unaccompanied children. And she met the children, she campaigned with us, she talked about how they need to be seen as human beings. The conservative government at that time wasn’t recognizing the humanity of these children, of these families. Keir Starmer as well was speaking out in support of refugees. And I just cannot believe that we are in a time where these people who once campaigned alongside. Humanitarian organizations and now who we’re campaigning against. The only reason, I think, is because they think that that’s what will keep them in power, but I think it’s so short-sighted and actually not true because they’re trying to appeal to the reform voters. The reform voters are going to vote reform anyway and actually what they’re doing is losing all of the left, the center who believe in humanity. It seems to me it’s like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Coco Khan The only narrative in town at the moment appears to be it’s all the immigrants’ fault. That is the single narrative that is being pushed. Whereas you give someone a story, well actually there’s another narrative, there’s love, there’s hope, there is empathy. I don’t know where that story is, I feel like that’s drowned out. So I guess my question to that is, thinking about this battle of narratives, where do we stand with calling out, for example, people that went to the Kingdom March? Is it helpful to call them racist? Is it help to call the fascist? Is helpfulness the right term? I don’t know, I’m asking you now.
Josie Naughton Yeah. I’m not sure I’ve got the answers. I too, I think accountability is really important. I think calling things out is really important and in part we’ve got to the place we’re in because a lot of things haven’t been called out. Equally, division doesn’t work. Polarization doesn’t work. We have to understand that there are people who are… Quite rightly upset about lack of opportunity, about lack of housing, about the lack of ability to get medical appointments, about quality of education. But we are not getting the message across to them well enough. And we have to think about how we can do that better. But it’s not because of refugees. They make up less than 1% of the population of the UK. It’s because of billionaires and the decisions of those in power. And that message is not getting out there. And I also think it’s ignorance. It’s people who maybe haven’t met someone who’s been displaced and traveled here. And I’ve seen so many examples of people that we work with who’ve ended up having an incredible relationship with their neighbor and the place that they’ve moved to and their neighbors ended up saying, wow, you know what? I had a totally different view of what someone from Syria was like. And actually, wow, you’ve become like my neighbor, my family, and you cook the best food I’ve ever had in my whole life. Um, and so we need to find a way to tell, to tell those stories. And, and it’s, it’s hard. I, I, myself, I find myself feeling like I’ve run an organization called Choose Love and I feel so angry.
Coco Khan Mmmm.
Josie Naughton And you really have to like talk to yourself, like, no, you have to have empathy. Like that’s the only way we’re going to move forward. And that is actually what, you know, they’ve won if we get grounded in hate. But it is difficult. And then, as you say, that kind of war of narratives, like we are all kind of slaves to Instagram and social media. And that’s how all of us run our businesses, our organizations, our lives. Um, and for us, when we do posts about the incredible work of our partners, a video of a gorgeous art program in a school, it gets no reach. It gets like a couple of hundred likes. When we do a post that’s like very angry, um, it, it gets huge reach. It gets such a huge number of likes. We need, we need that engagement in order to get donations. So we kind of, we’re like, we don’t want to be, we want to be spreading more of the message of love, but we also have to be kind of. Balancing that, and it’s really, really difficult.
Nish Kumar How do you stay up? Because, you know, I would still consider you one of the most optimistic and upbeat people I know. How do, that’s not a very good standard, actually, because most of the people I now are incredibly furious all the time, but I do consider you to be an upbeat and positive person. And how do you remain that way in the face of the things that you’re seeing on a day-to-day basis in your working life?
Josie Naughton I mean, I definitely have my moments, but I think, you know, the people, it sounds cheesy, but the people that we work with, they have been through things that we could never imagine. They have been victims of the hugest injustice. They may have lost family members. They have, you now, smelled what it’s like when a bomb has dropped and people have been killed. It’s, you, know, that the things that I’ve heard people tell me about, but they still have hope for their lives, hope for families. They’re like inviting you around for dinner, be that in their house in the country that they’ve resettled to, or in a tent in a refugee camp. And I think if those people can be upbeat, then I have to be able to as well. And we get to see the worst of humanity, but we also get to the very, very best of humanity. And I really do, maybe it is naive, but I really believe that that best of humanity will win out in the end. We’re just in the. Quite dark moment right now. But I do believe that the equal and opposite force will form and is falling. And I also think that the voice of hate can often be louder and we all have a job to do to make the voice love the loudest. I think it starts in our communities and then it trickles out. So I think everyone should be getting involved in their community. They should be thinking about where can they be volunteering? What campaigning can they be doing? Going and having conversations with people in that community. People can be donating to causes that they care about. They can donate to Choose Love, but also donating to organizations around the world that are led by communities themselves. That’s the model that Choose Love has and we wanna unseat ourselves from a position of power and privilege. We still have the vote. People need to be getting involved, thinking about what’s gonna happen in future elections, like doing these things. Is actually really important and we can’t feel paralyzed in this moment. This needs to be the moment that we really act. The aim is always for the organization to not exist. Our vision as an organization is a world that chooses love and justice every day for everyone. I don’t know if that will happen in my lifetime, but I am 100% committed to working towards that for the rest of my time on this planet. And I think there are so many people who feel the same.
Nish Kumar Josie, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.
Josie Naughton No, thank you so much for having me.
Coco Khan We’re back in the pub again to tell you, that’s it. It’s over.
Nish Kumar This episode of Pod Save the UK was actually bought to you by Christopher Nolan, so it’s time jumping, location jumping. This is non-linear storytelling. We’d like to thank Big Chris for stepping in at the last minute and directing this episode.
Coco Khan We didn’t mumble enough for it to be a Christopher Nolan, though. I feel like the audio was quite good.
Nish Kumar I feel like that is an unfair allegation that’s based solely on an early version of the Dark Knight Rises where some of Bane’s dialog was inaudible.
Coco Khan Let’s not bring this in and let’s not have a fight in the credits. Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter and Blue Sky.
Nish Kumar Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.
Coco Khan Thanks to Senior Producer James Tinsdale and Producer May Robson with production assistance from Annie Keats Thorpe.
Nish Kumar Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.
Coco Khan The executive producers are Louise Cotton and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz.
Nish Kumar Remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And remember to re-watch The Prestige because of the Nolan films, it’s actually the one that I think is really, really spectacular and really improves over repeated views.
