Share This Podcast

This week, Louis Virtel is joined by comedian Kimberly Clark to discuss Lily Allen’s new album, West End Girl, Springsteen: Deliver Me From Nowhere, the TikTokkers “decentering men,” and Jennifer Lawrence’s press tour. Justine Lupe also joins Louis to chat about season two of Netflix’s Nobody Wants This.

 

Subscribe to Keep It on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us there at YouTube.com/@KeepItPodcast

 

TRANSCRIPT

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel And we’re back with an all-new episode of Keep It. I’m Louis Virtel, here at Crooked Media, or as it’s never been called even one time, the Pussy Palace. Never been eligible. We’ll get into why that term is relevant when we explore Lily Allen’s new album. But first, our guest host today is the fabulous and hilarious Kimberly Clark.

 

Kimberly Clark Hello, Louis.

 

Louis Virtel Welcome. I’m so excited to be here. Now, before we began here, we were discussing what’s been on your mind and we need to get into something that we only touched on on Keep It. The death of D’Angelo. Yes. This man was fifty one years old.

 

Kimberly Clark Fifty one. I’m still reeling, man. Yeah. Still reeling over it. I mean, he’s so much of like my growing I feel like I grew up with him. Feels like it was I lost a brother, you know. But he was just a brilliant, brilliant singer. And I also felt like a kinship to him because he’s like a church, he’s a church kid. Yeah. And so I grew up in the church. I believe one of his parents was like a pastor or something like that. So, you know, I sort of like saw that in him before even like reading that he was a church kid. And so, you know, when it all came out in his bio, I was like, Yeah, that makes sense, you know, because you know, you just feel that sense from people, like, oh, that’s where they come from. And of course, like in his music and in his vocals and everything, you’d hear the influence.

 

Louis Virtel Well, also, we just don’t really actually demand in popular music that people be brilliant. Like, you know, like music can be pleasant, melodic, otherwise pretty disposable, and that’s fine. It doesn’t need to be great. Sometimes people wander in who are gifted. Right. And it it actually surprises me because it’s just not what we demand of what, for example, music I hear at the grocery store. Right. But he actually, you know, in the late nineties became this very intense musician whom we all not just respected, it was like he he became his own genre. Like Neo Soul is like inextricable from him.

 

Kimberly Clark Right. Right. And he was prodigious too. Like I believe he was like playing like at three years old, playing the piano.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, one of these Tori Amos people where it’s like they’re just touched, shall we say. Exactly.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly, exactly. But you know, he wrote his first like hit song when he was 16, but it didn’t come out until he was a little bit older. But he wrote that song and it was called You Will Know, and it was from the Jason Lyrics soundtrack. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with that movie or not. It was with Jada Pinkett Smith, Bo Keem Woodbine, but it was like from the 90s. It was like around that era of like Love Jones and all that stuff. Sure, yes. Yeah. So he wrote this song by a group called Black Men United. And basically it was kind of like like We Are the World, where it was like a compilation of artists, but it was all black male RB singers. So it was like Usher, Brian McKnight. It was just different artists, and it was like a basically like a male choir. Yeah, and they were singing the song You Will Know. It’s a great song, you should.

 

Louis Virtel Was everybody on this did they all have eighteen abs a piece?

 

Kimberly Clark I don’t think they all like Gerald Levert was in it, so he that he was fluffy. But but you know, some of them, you know, it was like a very young usher. Brian McKnight had a

 

Louis Virtel Brian McKnight had a recent era where he decided to write very explicit music. Yeah, he’s

 

Kimberly Clark He’s kinda he turned kind of weird.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. I mean it it’s almost I appreciate the effort, but it bec it was so there’s no other word for it, funny. Like it was like being explicit about what body parts you wanted to touch and it’s like when you get that literal, a certain mystique leaves the room.

 

Kimberly Clark Right, absolutely. It’s hysterical and and I feel bad for people that use Brian McKnight’s songs in their weddings ’cause it’s like tainted now. You know what I mean? It’s just a bit tainted, just like hear his voice and you know, he made a lot of great music, but now I I listen to it and I’m kinda like,

 

Louis Virtel His a music video for Back at One. That’s like kind of what I missed in the late nineties, like a very sappy, sad story video.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes, yes. Men don’t beg anymore either in the song. I’m like, where’s the begging? You know, get on your knees. Open your shirt up. We haven’t heard from Usher in a minute. What’s happening with him? You know what? He was in Vegas. He was doing his residency. He was doing the whole roller skating part of his show. Have you ever seen

 

Louis Virtel Have you ever seen it yes, and I remember w we saw that at the Super Bowl too.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes. Yeah. Yes. So I mean, I don’t know if he’s coming out with new music anytime soon, but like that was a pretty big deal.

 

Louis Virtel I wouldn’t be surprised if he had just like fully Android metallic body parts at this point. He’s just always like stage ready, gladiatorial body. Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark Mediatorial body. Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely.

 

Louis Virtel Well, speaking of R and B men, what are your Chris Brown thoughts as of recently?

 

Kimberly Clark Jump right into it.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I mean, I just saw footage of him like dancing and he I mean like he it’s both sexy and like a circus seal.

 

Kimberly Clark He’s amazing, you know, and and I have such mixed feelings about, okay, I really want to go see him live.

 

Louis Virtel Well it does feel like if you’re going to experience him like at least you get the full like body contact sort of magic mic style moves.

 

Kimberly Clark Mike style moves. Seeing him fly in the air and all that stuff. I mean, in terms of like dance moves and like all around performer, he is the closest thing that we have alive to Michael Jackson. Beyonce is in there too, but you know, he is a great performer. But then it’s like the history. Yeah, right. I remember some of that. I’m sure you do. Is there a statue of limitations? Like, am I, you know, is there a waiting period? Like, is there somebody that could tell me?

 

Louis Virtel And unfortunately no. I we’ve been granted consciences and we’re supposed to know what to do with them and I I remain at sea. I have no idea what to do.

 

Kimberly Clark Right.

 

Louis Virtel Also, you know what I think is always funny when when anybody who isn’t Michael Jackson dances even one percent like Michael Jackson, it’s like why are y I mean, it’s clear you’re ripping him off. You know, when there’s any sort of this

 

Speaker 3 Oh yeah.

 

Louis Virtel It always makes me laugh.

 

Kimberly Clark Well, at least artists like him do give reverence, like they do give their props to Michael. You know what I’m saying? It’s the ones that don’t where I’m like, okay, calm down.

 

Louis Virtel So you came on this podcast to defend Chris Brown and Michael Jackson, is that correct? Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark That was not the goal.

 

Louis Virtel I would love that hostile takeover.

 

Kimberly Clark That was not the goal.

 

Louis Virtel And you’re like and by the way, Phil Specter made amazing music.

 

Kimberly Clark I’m trying to get permission to go to the Chris Brown concert. That’s what I came here for. Permission.

 

Louis Virtel All right, all right. If I’m the one to grant it, that is too bad. Better not be me.

 

Kimberly Clark Right.

 

Louis Virtel Well, now that we’ve reviewed all our favorite RB men of the past 20 years. Right. In this episode, we’re gonna get into somebody who’s not quite R and B, Lily Allen, whom I remember when she emerged very vividly. It was sort of around the Amy Winehouse time when we accepted British women into our lives. She has a new album, and it is maybe the definitive breakup album of the past 10 years. She was famously married to David Harbor, past keep it guest, by the way, was very lovely at the time.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh nice. Okay.

 

Louis Virtel But we’re gonna get into how apparently he wasn’t lovely.

 

Kimberly Clark Okay, I gotta look at the episode now.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right.

 

Kimberly Clark After hearing this album, I gotta look at the episode. I’ll probably pick up the clues when I see that.

 

Louis Virtel Oh no, everything is a clue now, by the way. I feel like I’m Sherlocking every time I look at footage of them.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel So we’ll get into her new album, West End Girl. And we will also be interviewing the fabulous Justine Lupe, who is the star of Nobody Wants This on Netflix, but she’s also been on Succession. She was hilarious on Christella. She’s in Francis Ha. We’ll just get into her entire career. And then also, once again, they tried making a music biopic. And so many people told them to stop. And yet they proceeded. The new movie Springsteen Deliver Me From Nowhere, where Jeremy Allen White of the Bear plays Bruce Springsteen. We’ll talk about what that movie gets into, what it reveals about Bruce Springsteen, whether we wanted to know it about Bruce Springsteen. All that and more when we return after this.

 

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel Pop fans have been spoiled with some great divorce albums, but Lily Allen’s West End girl has taken things to a whole new level after a very public split with actor David Harbor earlier this year. She did not pull any punches. It is all anyone talked about all weekend too. Now, Kimberly, do you aspire to reach this level of messiness or is it, you know, too much for you?

 

Kimberly Clark You know what? First of all, I love it when people get in their Mary J. Blige bag. Please. You know what I’m saying?

 

Louis Virtel What’s the four one one? Being petty.

 

Kimberly Clark Listen, you don’t wanna say you wanna be sad and in dire straits to make art, but you gotta give it up to people that like use those like unfortunate circumstances they get into to make this beautiful music and beautiful art. I don’t think she was that messy. I think she was just direct.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, agreed. ‘Cause a lot of this album song to song to song is kind of just her revealing details of their lives. You know, it’s like, Oh, I I didn’t know you were using this place to fuck women. Right. You know, it almost it’s like she abandons poetic elements just to be like sort of a detective of her own story and say, Here’s what happened.

 

Kimberly Clark She was just telling it like it is. And you know, I love tea, okay? Oh, please. And I was sipping away during this whole album. I was just like, okay, girl, give the details. And she wasn’t name-calling. It was just very, it was almost, I almost want to say it was a dignified read. Yeah. It was very dignified. It was very classic.

 

Louis Virtel I also think this is sort of her signature thing, pairing like whimsical melodies, even kind of silly melodies with sarcastic reads. Absolutely that’s always and what she’s done, even that song Smile, which she sort of burst out of the box with, like is similar. And the entire album is like that. And I think what’s effective is when the music has that kind of sing song quality, but she’s relaying these sentiments, it makes it sadder. You know, like the irony of it together makes it gives it more impact and more import.

 

Kimberly Clark It kind of made me think of the outcast song Hey Yah. Yeah. Cause when you listen to the lyrics of Heya, it’s very, very sad. But like the beat, it’s just so upbeat and right. You’re shaking it like a Polaroid picture. Who would ever know? Polaroid picture, but it’s like it’s a sad song about a relationship, you know, that’s that’s going bad, you know. So I don’t I love this album though. Like it’s really the music. Oh, what is the song where the girl is talking, the mistress? Madeline Madeline.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, no, my question is, so we hear from her and she’s saying all these things. You can call me at any time, whatever. Is that Lily Allen talking? Or is somebody playing that part?

 

Kimberly Clark That’s what I was trying to figure out. And then because clearly it’s an American accent. Yes. Right. So I’m like, okay, the hoe is an American. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Right, we can narrow down

 

Kimberly Clark Right. Yeah. So I love that though, the love and light exit out of the song. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. It was great. What I love about this album also is the way, again, she’s just recounting journalistic details of what happened, seemingly without even commenting on them a lot of the time. It relays how numb she is. Like it just happened. No perspective on the relationship. It’s just I’m still feeling horrible from what just happened. Also, by the way, for a breakup album, which is a term we hear a lot, this stays in the breakup. Like there’s there’s there’s no song that ventures into another direction. Like I think people would say rumors by Fleetwood Mac is the definitive breakup album of all time. Even that album has like a song like Songbird that’s sweet and sad. There’s like or like Don’t Stop. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But whereas this, not a single song on it is about levity or you know, the furthest she gets into another direction is saying, Oh, I’m on the apps now. But all she has to say about that is I hate it here. Literally.

 

Kimberly Clark I hate it here. Yeah, exactly. Another honest moment in the album too was when she talks about how she needed a volume, like in the middle of the song.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah, but she has the song Relapse, which I think is my favorite song in the album. Love that. Because it has the feel almost like a postal service song. There’s like a dreamy, floaty quality to it. And yet the content is very harrowing. Like you’ll be responsible if I relapse. Right, right. Which, by the way, is another form of pettiness. Like you should feel bad that you’re you’re my psychological undoing right now. Yes. You know, but I think that’s a standout track on the album. And I want to say also, this really is meant to be experienced as an album. Like there’s not many tracks in this album that jump out to be the favorite. You know, it’s like it’s meant to be just everything is a specific chapter in this story. Yes. And like much like Madonna’s Confessions on a Dance Floor, if you said any one of those songs was your favorite song by that artist, I’d be surprised. It’s meant to be taken as a collective.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, absolutely. I love a cohesive album like that. I love having like a through line in albums. Cause you know, when you listen to some albums, it’s like, okay, you just picked your favorite eight songs and threw them together. Yeah, and it feels like A and all.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, and and it feels like A and R is is like influencing this. Like the record labels like you need six songs that are up tempo, you need one that’s not, you need you know, whatever.

 

Kimberly Clark Absolutely. But you know, she had me at the first track. Cause when I hear that bossa nova, I’m gone. I’m like, she got me. She got me with the bossa nova. Yeah. I thought that was gonna be my favorite song until I started listening more and more. And then I was like, okay, she’s on to something. And I’m and I’m my introduction to Lily Allen was the ska sound that she had. Yeah. So I was really surprised listening to this and thinking, oh wow, you know, she’s like hitting a lot of genres. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Album. Also, but usually I just think of Lily Allen when other artists make music that kind of sounds like her. Like when Dua Lipa on Future Nostalgia had an a song called Good in Bed, that to me sounded like a Lily Allen throwback. But I I’m not used to hearing from her as much. So that she would emerge and that we’re all talking about her is like kind of rad, actually. You know, it’s like I could have just as well not heard from her ever again, really.

 

Kimberly Clark That’s how you’re supposed to do it. You know? That’s how you’re supposed to do it really. Like just go away, live some life. Yeah. I mean you don’t have to have that kind of drama, but like if you haven’t it, use it, you know what I mean? To come out with something, you know, dope like this project.

 

Louis Virtel No. I also think it’s of course extra intriguing because she was married to somebody whom we’re all familiar with. It makes you want to review any footage you’ve ever seen of him and unpack like, oh, can I see his duplicitous ways? Can I see that he’s negligent, etcetera

 

Kimberly Clark I don’t really know her husband.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, well, he’s unfortunately in everything. He was here for the movie Black Widowed. And now I’m like, what did I miss? I feel, you know, responsible for what happened. I could have prevented this. I also am a fan of, I mean, like he was a stage actor. He was nominated for a Tony for being in Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolf. So just on my mind in general. And of course, he also made an architectural digest video with Lily Allen where they go through their home. And now I watch that and it feels like watching Revolutionary Road. I feel like all their secrets are being revealed on accident. Like you see her looking adoringly at him while he’s just explaining the wallpaper and not looking at her. And I keep being like, it was all right there. But of course, very hindsight is 2020.

 

Kimberly Clark I’m gonna be looking for that drawer with all the stuff in it. Yeah. When I watch that episode, I’m gonna be like where

 

Louis Virtel Is the drawer. She also on this album drops just enough details that make it extra titillating. Like when she says the word butt plugs, I’m like, does that mean he had the butt plugs? Did was he using that? Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah. God, where is he right now? What bunker within a bunker within a bunker is he in? He’s deep.

 

Kimberly Clark In there, deep in the trenches.

 

Louis Virtel If I had to pick my three favorite songs in the album, I’m gonna go with first the first song, West End Girl, because it sets you right in the middle of their breakup. She’s like, literally, we moved to the States, we spent too much money on our house. And then I was called back to do a play in England. And then you said to me, I’m probably gonna have to audition, which felt like a personal slight. Like that moment of like knowing something is wrong in this relationship, and I should have known even sooner. I love that. It just sets the scene for the whole album in a really fabulous way in a really not contrived way either. I also love the song Non-Monogamami because the whole issue with the relationship is it was an open relationship with set boundaries. And she just talked about how it didn’t work for her, how how she had to like shove down feelings in order to deal with it. Right. And then my other favorite song is Dallas Major, where is just this is what she calls herself on the apps or something when she’s like trying to snag a man. And it just points out the absolute grimness of the apps. I mean, like I’m somebody who used to, I used to find like things like grinders so liberating, like, oh, we get to be here and like we have access to everybody. And then after a while, it just dawns on you. It it keeps giving you the same returns again and again. Like it’s hard to be optimistic about something that feels so mechanical.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly. And not it’s not very organic either. You know, I mean initially it’s not.

 

Louis Virtel I just want to say that right now you look like you’re conducting a symphony.

 

Kimberly Clark Listen, these these are all my lyrics here. You know, I have to really I like Dallas Major too, actually. I like it sonically. Yeah. It’s probably like the most upbeat song maybe on the album as well. I love the fact that she talks about how she hates being on the apps and she’s like, you know, I I’m a woman almost forty years old and

 

Louis Virtel I’ve got two teenage kids.

 

Kimberly Clark I’ve got two teenage kids, you know. How does that sound to you? You know, is that sexy to you? You know, I I just love like just her transparency through like everything that she went through and just how honest she is in it. Yeah. Uh ’cause I hate it here. She literally says that.

 

Louis Virtel By the way, I w I normally would think like, Oh, I don’t need to hear the phrase I hate it here ever again, but the way she sings it with a real sad lilt. Yes. There’s an extra sincerity to it. She finds like a bedrock of of earnestness in the cliche.

 

Kimberly Clark Absolutely. I love Pussy Palace. I don’t know.

 

Louis Virtel Which is the single, by the way. And that’s how you know this is a crazy album. That’s the single.

 

Kimberly Clark They are leading with that song. That’s hilarious. First of all, I don’t like saying the word pussy in like general, like after a certain like. You grew up in the church. You grew up in the church. It’s too early to say pussy right now. Yeah. Like that’s like a nighttime word. I don’t like saying it like anyway. But that’s a great song. And the way she says it too, it’s a beautiful sounding song. So I understand why their AR people would have wanted to lead with that. Yeah. But it was kind of crazy though, like calling him a sex sex addict.

 

Louis Virtel Right. And just repeating it several times, like drilling at home like I’m dealing with somebody who is sexually unwell. Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, who has a lot of things going on. The toys, the butt plugs, the lube. I mean, she gives the tea, but in a beautifully sonic way.

 

Louis Virtel And and also just so memorable. Again, like how often do you actually come away remembering the the specifics in the lyrics of a song, period. Right.

 

Kimberly Clark Right. Right. And I love the alliteration of Pussy Palace. Right. I mean, we gotta. Anyways, for Chan Stan is my favorite.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah, where she calls him out and makes him seem like something is up with him and his internet habits that’s dubious.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes, yes, yes. That was my third favorite.

 

Louis Virtel Do you have other favorite breakup songs or albums?

 

Kimberly Clark You know what? I love it, you know, it’s the anniversary actually of Mama Mama’s Guns. Oh, Eric. Yes. She had the last song on there. Green Eyes, that’s what it’s called. She starts out talking about how she’s jealous of the other woman that her man is with. And then she’s just like going through the range of emotions. It’s almost like a breakup album, but within a song. Because Mama’s Guns isn’t necessarily a breakup album, but that song in particular is like a breakup song that’s like in three parts. It’s great. Yeah. Because each part of the song has like a different movement. Like the beginning of the song is very jazzy. It almost sounds like something you would hear in the old movie, you know, like that vintage sound. And then the second part of the song is kind of bluesy, jazzy. I don’t know. You ha you have to hear it though. It’s great.

 

Louis Virtel So her music just has all of that in it in general. And then also she and then also she’s very funny.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh she’s hysterical.

 

Louis Virtel Like you could not make her up.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh, she could have been a comedian. I think she worked actually in a comedy club. I think Steve Harvey had like a comedy club in Texas, and I think she worked in there.

 

Louis Virtel Oh wow. Yeah. She Rules. One of my favorite breakup songs ever is Do you know It’s Too Late by Carol King?

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, from the seventies. That’s a great song.

 

Louis Virtel Well the weird thing about that song is so Carol King is known for being, you know, the the great pop songwriter of all time. She did not write the lyrics to that song. Some woman named Tony Stern did. I remain disappointed because the lyrics are so good. She just did the music. Yeah, yeah. Which is fine. But just I’m disappointed, Carol. But what I love I I love that it’s a breakup song celebrating the breakup. You know, it says, We really did try to make it. There’s a an adult sense of resolve to the song. Yes. You know, like as much as I love, you know, You Oughta Know by Alanis Morissette and true breakup songs. Yes. I I just feel like a huge part of being an adult is realizing that something ending is usually a good thing.

 

Kimberly Clark Is another door opening another song I like is Chicago’s Stronger Every Day.

 

Louis Virtel You just took me back, yes.

 

Kimberly Clark I just discovered that song maybe about eight years ago and I love Chicago and you know, I n love all the hits Saturday in the park and all that stuff. But when I heard that song, I was like, Come on knowing that you would have wanted it this way.

 

Speaker 3 Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark I do believe I’m feeling stronger every day. I’m like, that’s all just let me propel myself. Listen, go to the next level.

 

Louis Virtel Right, there’s another step for you.

 

Kimberly Clark This breakup is, yeah, it’s like it’s pushing me up.

 

Louis Virtel I love it. Al also, you know why I’m a big fan of breakups as something to talk about on an album? It gives an artist something to do. I don’t know. I feel like a lot of the time you’re like artists are scrambling. Like on the latest Taylor Swift album, I find I feel like she’s in a very contented place and sort of Dig up. Yeah, please. That fucking scarf and Jake Gyllenhaal. We got another round of that. Let’s go. That’s hilarious. No, and I want to emphasize again, everything on this album is is only about this man. And like my favorite album of all time is Exile and Guy Bell by Liz Fair, which is routinely called a breakup album. Okay, but like that goes so many other different directions. There’s like a moody song about being on an airplane. There’s a a song about I hate living in the house I’m living in with these fucking like assholes. Right. Before it gets into like songs like Divorce Song that are a about a breakup and how sad it is. Joni Mitchell’s Blue, one of my favorite albums of all time, routinely called a breakup album, also has somewhat sunnier songs or just like a song about missing California or whatever. So

 

Kimberly Clark Oh no doubt, don’t speed.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Oh yes, I remember when we used to love Gwed Stefani. Remember that? Listen. The Harajuku Yeah, right. Oh, she’ll pick anything. She had a whole thing of Native Americans. Appropriation of it all.

 

Kimberly Clark You know.

 

Louis Virtel She’s not done yet. Right. I don’t even know who’s left. Who’s who couldn’t she Scandinavians? Who’s left? Scary.

 

Kimberly Clark But Mary J. Blige, though, to me is the ultimate, like I hate to say we like Mary sad and we like Mary going through it, but that’s when she really gets in her bag. I mean, it’s it’s a it’s an ongoing joke, like people talk about. They’re like, oh, Mary just broke up, you know, Mary just had a whatever, you know. But how can you get to that place without a breakup?

 

Louis Virtel I know. No, I mean like when she says no more drama, I mean it’s like I’m like I’m I wanna call somebody up and commit her to a ward. Yes.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes, you really feel it.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, like rainy days, you know, like the like yeah, you’re right. Tapping into drama is how people tap into their artistry a lot of the time. Like someone like Olivia Rodrigo, I can’t imagine her career really even progressing without drama on this level to you know, take from.

 

Kimberly Clark I’m not really familiar with Olivia. I I’ve heard her stuff but not really like

 

Louis Virtel She she sort of follows in the tradition of Paramour. I’m stealing a joke from my friend Chase Mitchell. He says that paramour is the official music of calling your mom a bitch in a mall parking lot. And Olivia Rodrigo is sort of like the heir to that, where it’s like a lot of angst that feels like you know, I’m in a breakup. And also I I was gonna say I have my learner’s permit, but literally her song is driver’s license. No, I I think Olivia Rodrigo is an heir to this type of music where it is built on I’m pissed and don’t know what to do, so I’m gonna scream my lungs out. And that turns into vocals. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry to this David Harbor, but I come away from this album feeling rejuvenated and like I want to keep listening to it. By the way, the problem with the breakup album is a lot of the time, you know, it’s a sort of it’s a rancid feeling having been through a breakup. So it’s not like a feeling you would necessarily want to immerse yourself in. But the music, again, the mix of the the light melodic quality and the funny sarcasm running through it, or the monotone quality running through it, makes for an interesting dichotomy. So you really want to stay there, or I do.

 

Kimberly Clark Absolutely. And this is cathartic. This whole album is very cathartic. And there’s it’s something beautiful about listening to someone heal. You know, this woman is healing. Even if

 

Louis Virtel Even if that’s like step one, yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly. Even if it is step one, I feel like she’s probably pretty past step one at this point after putting this body of work out. I feel like she’s gonna get some Grammys for this. I feel like she’s gonna get a new man if she hasn’t gotten one already. I don’t know. I just feel like she’s just about to level up, glow up like crazy.

 

Louis Virtel Do you by chance remember the old Boy Meets World episode where one of the guys dates this girl who then writes an a a breakup anthem about him and then she becomes really famous?

 

Kimberly Clark I don’t remember that episode.

 

Louis Virtel Anyway, I just want you to know that it’s so nice when Boymeets World becomes reality. I believed in it that much.

 

Kimberly Clark It’s gonna happen for Lily. Mark my words. I can’t wait to see it.

 

Louis Virtel And anyway if you havent seen the Architectural Digest video wit her and David Harbor in it, get out your magnifying glass and your Dior stalker cap because you’re going to do some detective work. When we’re back, Justine Lupe joins us.

 

[AD] Ever since this week’s guest threw her tablet into the sea, we knew she was destined for more. That more finally came on Season 2 of Nobody Wants This now streaming on Netflix. You know her from Succession, the Marvelous Misses Masel, Christella, and possibly an Emmy nomination this year. Without further adieu, please welcome to Keep It, Justine Lupe.

 

Justine Lupe Hi!

 

Louis Virtel What’s happening?

 

Justine Lupe I just love that you did a fist pump on Christella.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah!

 

Justine Lupe You might be the only person who would ever make that gesture with Christella.

 

Louis Virtel Well thats one of the last multi-cam sitcoms I can think of that went hard as fuck on the laughs. People are just screaming at each other in those scenes.

 

Justine Lupe Ugh huh. It was wild.

 

Louis Virtel Was it exhausting to film that show because of the energy it required to be on screen?

 

Justine Lupe No, no, it wasn’t exhausting ’cause my character was like just this little dabble of Hi, bye. Like you know, that was like kinda my job. So it was like

 

Louis Virtel When they catch you like we need a high bye girl.

 

Justine Lupe We d yeah, that was in the casting description. Like that’s all we need. No, I I’ve spent a lot of time kind of just hanging out backstage for that show. But it was bizarre, you know. I feel like sitcoms are a strange animal. Like, you know, there’s people are kind of like encouraged to laugh by someone who stands out there and is like kind of bribing them into laughing with prizes and like clapping and you know, it it’s kind of it’s just bizarre. It feels like you’re in a fun house, but it was fun.

 

Louis Virtel But also you’ve done every kind of television at this point. Like there’s no genre left unturned. Let’s start with nobody wants this. First of all, I can’t think of a show that is harder to turn off than this show. Like there’s something about just the vibe of it where you want to continue to be in it, even as people are constantly disagreeing with each other, having personal conflicts. What is it about this show do you think is so addictive? Like an energy you want to keep on the screen?

 

Justine Lupe I think it goes down easy. You get to laugh. You get to watch some romance. There are like disputes for sure, but it’s all kind of with like a levity. There’s a bite to it, but there’s soulfulness behind it. I think it’s shot beautifully. I think that that stuff really does matter. The sound design is really great. The music is poppy. I just think it kind of flies. I find myself in the same situation with the show. I just like zoom.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Zoom through it. Also, almost everybody on this show has been on this podcast before. And they’re also like such stone pros. I I call it the Jennifer Anison stuff. Like just even being casual, saying hi to somebody, like make it seem so real. And how has your relationship just evolved with these people as you’ve gone from one season to the next? We’re talking Adam Brody and Kristen Bell and the fabulous Jackie Tone and Timothy.

 

Justine Lupe Simon. Yes. I mean, it’s the beauty of TV, I think, is that you get this summer camp vibe, but you get to do it over and over and over again. And you kind of there’s just inherent intimacy that comes with doing that much work together year after year. So I’ve I’ve had it before with Succession. I had it before that with Mr. Mercedes. It there’s just it’s it’s an amazing gift to be given, just redundancy of proximity with each other. And I love them so much. They’re all really great people to be around. Timothy Simons is like one of my best friends now. We hang out outside of the show often. We go on double dates with our, you know, respective partners. Kristen is a really close friend. We do like baby dates with our kids, and I same with Jackie. I mean, I’m close with all of them. Adam lives on the West side, so it’s a little bit more difficult. But every time we go on, you know, these publicity tours, we go out and we have fun. I feel very close to them. And I think part of that is just getting season multiple seasons, and that’s just such a gift. And in the acting, it’s also a gift because you kind of don’t have to muscle this feeling of knowing each other because you actually do know each other, you know.

 

Louis Virtel Also, I’ve never seen a show that is more a love letter letter to the east side of LA.

 

Justine Lupe I know.

 

Louis Virtel As in like I don’t think I would have known growing up that that LA could look like this or existed like this. I I thought of it as all what D T L A was.

 

Justine Lupe Uhhuh. Oh really? Downtown LA is your version.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, ’cause there used to be this game show called Greed that took place in LA where the opening credits was big buildings in LA and so I just thought it was that.

 

Justine Lupe That’s so funny because I feel like that’s like the most I I don’t associate downtown LA with LA generally.

 

Louis Virtel No really I was completely wrong. Yeah.

 

Justine Lupe Yeah, yeah, totally. If anything, I think of Hollywood Boulevard and Ouihou and that kind of part of town or even Malibu and Santa Monica. But now that I live in East LA

 

Louis Virtel I was gonna say, has it given you a greater appreciation for that area? ‘Cause it’s so lovingly shot over there.

 

Justine Lupe No, I it didn’t give me a greater appreciation because I’m obsessed with East LA. Like I’ll never leave East LA. But it did, it was kind of like I was on the, you know, sideline going like, Yeah, like East LA showing up. Like that that shot outside of the movie theater in the first season. I’ve had a date outside that movie theater. You know. So I under like it there’s just something so cool about seeing the places that I spent my twenties and you know early thirties just highlighted in this like very romantic, like esthetically elevated way, you know.

 

Louis Virtel Also, talk about getting the part on this show. So you play a podcaster, your sister’s with Kristen Bell, and I imagine the charisma had to be popping immediately when you were trying to get on this show. And it and it does. You feel like you’re actually related.

 

Justine Lupe Oh, that’s just you know, Kristen and I are both intimacy junkies. We’re both like very like heart forward people and we really like connecting. So there was kind of a very quick getting to know each other pretty well right away. In terms of auditioning, yeah, I did a I did a self-tape at home. I had a lot of fun with it. And then I was like, goodbye, you know, as you do with these parts that you audition for, you kind of have to like like enjoy them and then release them. Yeah. And then they came back and were like, do you want to do a chemistry read with her? And she immediately when I got there, just was so warm, asked exactly like what I needed and would I want a hug? Do I want to run it? Do you want to go into a private space and just kind of like work through it a little bit? She was just so generous. And that I guess the availability and the generosity just instantly clicked me into being very comfortable with her. And yeah, that’s remained the case through the last two seasons of working with her. She’s just delightful. She’s kind of all the things that you see in the public eye, like she is that.

 

Louis Virtel I was at a game night with her once where people were playing mafia or werewolf or whatever the equivalent is. And while she was accusing someone of being the mafia or whatever, she was so nice. She was like, I don’t want to hurt your face. You know, it was just like it was like lots of like preamble to and I’m I don’t mean this personally. Whereas like I play that game and I’m like, I literally want you murdered. I like I I want you know, firing squad, etcetera.

 

Justine Lupe I’m like you. Yeah, she’s a very therapized person. Sometimes you’re like, Are you a therapy robot? Because like it feels like you’re just too evolved in this way. I’m I’m like you. I’m like there there I have been known to just like get w make everyone uncomfortable while we’re playing games.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I don’t understand playing otherwise. There’s a zeal to being alive and I want to explore that violently while we play games.

 

Justine Lupe I really understand. I I have gotten better and I will say there is a satisfaction to working past the the emotional rage or like the like amped up. There’s something satisfying about being like, this is a game. And we’re moving on. Like there is something kind of like you do feel like a better person. Oh.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I hope to I I hope to learn that, but I’m not even like one percent there.

 

Justine Lupe I’m like, I’m like, I’m gonna be honest. I’ve gotten in the past year I’d say sixty percent there. And part of it is because my husband is like, this is psychotic. Like once he entered the situation and kind of gave his feedback on the level of competitiveness being just I guess like a little bit unsettling. I was like, okay, I gotta I gotta work on this.

 

Louis Virtel What particular games, et cetera, are we talking about here?

 

Justine Lupe Katan

 

Louis Virtel Oh, okay. Serious games, like strategy games.

 

Justine Lupe We like scattergories is a big one in our house.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I get nasty when when like when people try to do like alliteration and they added an adjective or something. Well now I have a gun.

 

Justine Lupe Yeah. No, no, no, no, totally. And then I on the other side of it, I am one to kind of stretch the the rules.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Oh, it’s way different when I do it.

 

Justine Lupe Yeah, like come on. It makes sense, guys.

 

Louis Virtel No, you so you say you naturally you’re a competitive person. You went to Juilliard and you also went to a magnet art school growing up in Denver. Did that come into play there at all? Like do you need competitive energy in order to thrive in an environment like that?

 

Justine Lupe Oh gosh. I hope not. I think that that is like one of the things that you really have to get rid of in this career generally is like the looking side to side. It’s like the death of creativity. It’s the death of longevity in this business. Like I think that that’s what makes people burn out is like the kind of like looking around and being like, well, what well, they got that, or I want that, or you know, and it’s a natural thing, especially coming into it. And then you kind of have to like work through that. So in high school, I I really liked doing it, but it wasn’t like a hugely cutthroat thing for me. I was like, I enjoy this. I hope I get a part in this play. Actually, I think like my parents like advocated for me more than I’ve advocated for myself. I recently found out that my parents went in and had a talk with my drama teacher. That and were like, Will you please give her more parts? Which is like a mortifying thing, even in my late 30s to like acknowledge that that’s something that they did. I didn’t know about it until like two years ago. And I’m like, What did you do? You did what?

 

Louis Virtel Did it work? It did. Oh wow. It did. Unfortunately I support it.

 

Justine Lupe I remember my teacher coming in and being like, these crazy parents, they like they keep on peer pressuring me to give their kids like jobs or not jobs, but give their kids parts in these plays. And I was always I remember being like, that’s bonkers. And little did I know that that was my that was my parents. So anyway, I I didn’t really have competitiveness around things in high school or in college. I mean, I really wanted to get into Juilliards. So I guess it was a competition with myself of like, could can can I get there? Or an aspiration. But I, you know, I didn’t know the peers that I was auditioning up against or how many slots. I didn’t that kind of didn’t come into play. And then when I graduated, I think that there’s an initial kind of being like, Well, what is what are people auditioning for and what’s out there? And then I do think that it’s kind of like exposure therapy where you just let that go as time goes on because you realize how unhelpful it is to be doing the side to side thing.

 

Louis Virtel I’m always fascinated with people who went to Juilliard though, because inevitably you’re there with the you know, somebody who goes on to become a major actor or just like you’re you’re you’re conscious of all these major talents. Do you remember just sitting and watching anybody whose performance they are you really still remember?

 

Justine Lupe Adam Driver.

 

Louis Virtel Oh oh tough person to go to school with, I feel like. He’s like Mr. Actor.

 

Justine Lupe Oh, yeah. I mean, at the time he was kind of this like wild seeming guy. Like he was, you know, he was so incredible at acting. Everything I ever saw him in, I was just like this guy. He was in Burn This. I remember his performance and that being like outstanding. And he was he did this under Milkwood piece that was incredible. He but he also felt like a little bit like like an animal, like an uncaged animal. Like we knew we all knew that he had come from the military and he was like always kind of like quiet and brooding and like roaming around and yeah, he was kind of this enigma when we went to school. But yeah, he was one that I was like, Oh, that guy’s like crazy talented, even while we were at school. And there were a lot of people like that. Corey Hawkins was in my class and you know, he played Dr. D Dre in straight out of Compton and he was just in the color purple. He’s like an incredible actor. He just did Top Dog Underdog on Broadway a couple years ago. Corey Barks, yes. Incredible. He’s incredible. And I knew then that he was just like remarkable. But yeah, you see incredible performances all the way through, and then it’s kind of wild to just watch people’s careers as time goes by.

 

Louis Virtel Do you find that you actually use what you learned in school like on a daily basis when you’re acting, whether it’s on Succession, whether it’s on this show?

 

Justine Lupe On a daily basis, no. I’m like, I’m not acting on a daily basis. That’s true. Not even close. But I do feel like, yeah, I I there’s there are definitely aspects that I kind of call upon from that time. There, I also just think that doing that much theater over and over and over again for four years, you know, we did 16 plays by the time that we had graduated at school. And so that in itself is just something. The confidence that it gives you and the knowing that you put in that many hours just is inherently kind of helpful. And they really do stretch you into kind of going to different places. So I feel like what I’ve done outside of school is reflective of me kind of being stretched in different directions. Like I’ve played a lot of different kinds of characters, which I think Juilliard kind of gave me just an awareness that I could go out there and play like a kind of a different character than I ever expected being able to play. I was always cast at Juilliard as like the old woman, like bear to the maid, or like that’s what’s so funny about.

 

Louis Virtel That’s what’s so funny about school to me is like it’s a completely different universe, especially when you’re with only people your age group.

 

Justine Lupe Totally. They’re like, and you will be the matriarch of this family and you will be the like old woman.

 

Louis Virtel Big mama and cat on the hot ten roof or whatever.

 

Justine Lupe Totally. But there’s something to it where you’re like, Oh, this is my com my comfort zone before this was like Juliet and now I’m being stretched to play like, you know, this like fierce kind of like queen or, you know, this old tiny woman, you know, those things just putting yourself in positions that aren’t familiar, I do think is just helpful and and it gives you the confidence outside of school to kind of be like, Okay, I can play with that or I can try that, you know, in a a way that I might not have had if I didn’t go to school and I just saw myself in a kind of narrow pocket, you know.

 

Louis Virtel You also worked with Brendan Gleason, one of my favorite actors. Yeah. On a very underrated T V show. Oh thank you. What was it like just working with him? I mean, like I still think of his performance in Banshees of Inashiran, which I I really believe he should have won the Oscar that year.

 

Justine Lupe He’s incredible. It’s just so easy. He’s just so effortless feeling and he everything feels so available to him. And honestly, that experience was awesome. And part of what made it awesome is that there weren’t any eyes on the show. That like I I felt like I was being tucked under the wing of like a great and he was showing me the ropes and I didn’t have any kind of pressure, you know. And it was wonderful. It was also just a character that I think if there had been a lot of visibility on it or a lot of like, you know, opinions about her, I might have gotten a little bit more shut down. And there was something like really freeing about being on the audience network, which like nobody knew about, with this incredible actor by my side who was kind of like leading me through the experience. Yeah, he taught me so much. He like taught me not to run through walls. It didn’t make sense. Like he’s one of those actors that’s like, okay, I need to understand what I’m doing. I’m not gonna just like force my way through a a situation that that I don’t fully understand. Or you know, there were times where I was like, I didn’t feel I didn’t feel that. I didn’t feel connected to what I was doing. And he would he was like, Well, that’s why you have training and skill is like sometimes you’re not actually in touch with the feeling or you know, you’re not like this sweeping meditation of acting. Like you you kind of are just muscling you’re you’re muscling through it in a way that’s more technical and it still works, you know. That’s why you have training to back the kind of like just intuitive.

 

Louis Virtel Well, it’s and of course the opposite of the situation is being on succession, where not only did everybody watch that show, everybody had an opinion about what was happening on that show.

 

Justine Lupe I know.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, what is the takeaway from a situation like that? Was it like is it kind of gruesome to be so aware of what the public thinks when you’re working on a show that’s that acclaimed?

 

Justine Lupe You know, it’s funny because as I said, I mean, jet no. The answer is no, because I trusted those writers just with everything. Like I could feel how talented they were. And so I didn’t really pay attention too much to what the reactions were to that show. I mean, it’s hard to fault that show or find a flaw with succession. It’s just like it’s just incredible. So in the same like it’s kind of a weird one, because yeah, I valued the privacy of Mr. Mercedes and kind of being in this little bubble. And also like there was something kind of fun to being on a show that was like that visible and the fans kind of you felt like the reception and and I think it was helpful that I was like so trusting of the writers and the vision that Jesse had that I didn’t really let any kind of like criticism it didn’t affect me at all.

 

Louis Virtel I also feel like that’s one of the rare shows where almost every character on it could have been their own show. You know, and yet they were all together and like so you got these glimpses of these very fascinating people. But do you really feel like like if I told you, Oh, we’re making a Willow show tomorrow, you could possibly just sustain an entire show about that character?

 

Justine Lupe I mean if Jesse was writing it.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, yeah.

 

Justine Lupe If Jesse if Jesse believed that that spin off was something worth doing, I would I would be like, Yeah, I’d be like sign me up. I’d do anything with that man. He’s a genius actually. So if he believed that there was something to explore with Willa and Connor, then like I’d be so down. I and I’m with you. I I thought every single one of those actors was just fascinating. Those characters were fascinating. I’ve never seen performances like that ever. They’re just the best. So

 

Louis Virtel And and they really like got better and better somehow. Like by the end it was like of course Sarah Snook’s gonna win that Emmy, you know?

 

Justine Lupe Oh my gosh. Or or Matthew, like watching Matthew. Matthew from the beginning was just like a knockout, but then it just gets like it just gets better and better and you’re just like, what is going on with this guy? He’s like touched by some sort of like, I don’t know, ethereal other thing, like an acting god. Just was just like, and you

 

Louis Virtel And almost bothers me. It’s like how is he also Mr. Darcy?

 

Justine Lupe Like the most compelling, most romantic, most like like desirable guy, and then Tom is just like so yck. Yeah, right.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Also, y again, you’ve been in as we’ve discussed, all these different types of TV and you must be used to everything as an actor now. What are you actually watching that is exciting to you? That makes you sort of that is moving your brain in some new direction.

 

Justine Lupe I mean I loved Bad Sisters. I had a lot of show.

 

Louis Virtel I love that show. Also, PJ Harvey does the music for that and I’m a Stan. Oh really? Oh cool.

 

Justine Lupe Oh really? Oh cool. Yeah. Yeah, I know I I loved it. I’m we just tore through it recently, my husband and I, and I just I loved it. I think the writing is incredible, the relationships are great, and I also just thought it had a heightened there’s there’s something hyper realistic and also heightened about it that they execute so swimmingly. I love like the antagonists of the seasons. They’re like Fiona Shaw is incredible.

 

Louis Virtel Imagine her not being incredible. Yes.

 

Justine Lupe Always. And the guy from the square, I I’m like lapsing on his name, but he was the antagonist of the first season. The husband is just just like so cringe. And all those actresses are so great and I kind of just love watching like, you know, a a very female forward show with like stellar performances.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, Sharon Horgan’s record is just fabulous too. She really is like an underrated creator.

 

Justine Lupe I know I actually did a pilot with her years ago that didn’t make it, but it was really fun and and it’s cool to like have these glimpses of her back when I was in my early twenties and she was kind of just carrying over this very weird pilot called Dead Boss that was a show that had been made in the UK. And and it didn’t get made, but it was a really fun experience. And it’s kind of wild to be like, Oh, look at how like, look at what she’s done. My gosh, she’s just prolific. It’s wild.

 

Louis Virtel And my last question is what can people look for if they haven’t watched the entire season nobody wants this? And by the way, it goes down so easily. I like drank this all up in like a a single sitting.

 

Justine Lupe Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel What can they look forward to from Morgan this season?

 

Justine Lupe I mean, I think Morgan’s going through a bit of identity crisis. She’s lost, you know, her sister, who’s, you know, I would say she’s very codependent with. She’s one of the loves of her life in a sense. They’re very, very enmeshed. And now her sister is going off on this relationship and leaving Morgan a little bit in the dust. And so I think she’s having kind of this like crisis where she’s like, What is my life? And where am I going? And where’s my love? And and what’s next for me? And she’s in a bit of a whirlwind crisis and goes a little bit bonkers, and this is where it ends up. I think.

 

Louis Virtel And there’s a succession reunion in this too. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. With a particular actor, which I guess I’ll I’ll leave the viewers to discover. It’s a lot of fun.

 

Justine Lupe Yeah, he’s the best. I was so lucky feeling when we got him to do it and we had an amazing time and I think it’s a kind of like fun part for him to play.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, definitely. Justine Lupe, thank you so much for being here. What a pleasure. What a pleasure.

 

Justine Lupe Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you, Justine. Season two of Nobody Wants This is on Netflix right now.

 

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel Jeremy Allen White has put down the apron and picked up the guitar to transform into Bruce Springsteen in the new biopic Deliver Me From Nowhere. Jeremy Strong, Paul Walzerhauser, and Steven Graham round out the cast. And though this was more than enough star power to make the film a hit, the movie flatlined at the box office. Now, before we get into why, Kimberly, did you know a lot about Springsteen going into the movie?

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, you know, I I grew up in the eighties.

 

Louis Virtel You do not look it.

 

Kimberly Clark Thank you.

 

Louis Virtel Wow.

 

Kimberly Clark Thank you.

 

Louis Virtel I o I only read about it in books.

 

Kimberly Clark I was there. Okay. But I was a little child, but I do remember Bruce Springsteen.

 

Louis Virtel I remember the fit of them jeans.

 

Kimberly Clark Right. And and old girl from hilarious with the handkerchief hanging out.

 

Louis Virtel Please.

 

Kimberly Clark Old girl from Friends.

 

Louis Virtel Oh Courtney Cox.

 

Kimberly Clark Was in the video.

 

Louis Virtel Dancing in the dark.

 

Kimberly Clark Dancing in the dark. So, you know, I remember that song. I also remember him being in We Are the World. Did you see the movie?

 

Louis Virtel With with my girl Latoya Jackson. Yes.

 

Kimberly Clark Did you see the documentary?

 

Louis Virtel Yes. I I drive because I drive past that every day. That’s because that’s right on La Brea where they it w where AM studios used to be. And now it’s the Muppet Studio. Yeah. I drive past that every day/

 

Kimberly Clark Okay, do you do you re did you remember seeing Michael giving Bruce Springsteen shade, like kinda looking at him when he was was it him when he was singing his notes? I don’t know if it was him or Huey Lewis.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah. I I feel like Huey Lewis jumped in last minute. It probably wasn’t him. It could have been Bruce. But Bruce was in the full drama singing on that song.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh, absolutely. He was in it. Like yeah, but I do remember Bruce Springsteen though.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark And his work.

 

Also, he has he is such a good role model for the underbike community. And we rarely, I rarely get to see my people represented that well. So I have to say I love him for that reason. So in this movie, he’s making the album Nebraska, which is definitely the darkest moment in his discography. And the movie is basically about his struggle to put out this album the way he wants people to hear it, which is this very lo-fi, unamplified style, which stands in stark contrast to the music he’s put out before, namely the album before the river, which is full of anthems that are in very traditionally Bruce Springsteen. And then this is also an album before Born in the USA. And maybe the most interesting thing about this movie is that he wrote a lot of the Born in the USA at the same time he wrote these songs, and they do not seemingly go together at all. You know, like night and day. Right. Like a lot of the songs on Nebraska, like the title track is about a a serial killer in Nebraska, a real serial killer in the 50s, who is chronicled in the movie Badlands. Bruce Springsteen has another song called Badlands inspired by I think just the poster from that movie, but he gets into the head of this serial killer who just says, I did it because there’s a meanness in the world. So you’re getting into the psyche of a very dark individual.

 

Kimberly Clark Mm-hmm.

 

Louis Virtel And but the movie basically says that he wanted to put out this album as is because he was so depressed, he wanted an album that basically matched the depression he was going to. Right. And I feel like that’s actually not that interesting a conclusion. I think it would have been more interesting if this movie was about I’m an artist and I think this sounds better. Because by the way, if you listen to the amplified versions of these songs, which were released recently as the electric versions of Nebraska, it sounds so much more generic. Yeah. It’s like I I can only understand his w point of view.

 

Kimberly Clark Why he would have wanted it more raw and real. Yeah. I found it very interesting that he was scenes from the movie where he was in the library, like looking at microfiche of you know, the case in Nebraska. And I’m like, oh, Bruce Springsteen was at the library, like doing research.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, doing journalistic stuff, yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, like I found that very intriguing and interesting. And, you know, I’m like, oh, okay, he’s that dude.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Unfortunately, in order to pad out its runtime, the other things in this movie aren’t as fascinating. Like they try to be like he oh, he dated this woman in New Jersey and then she felt like she got the short shrift. It’s like, you don’t say. He’s like the world’s most famous songwriter and he doesn’t really have time for a relationship right now. They did not find an interesting angle into the love story for even one second. I feel bad for that actress who did a pretty good job.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, she was decent. And they didn’t even revisit it at the end of the movie either. Because I was kinda like, Well, what’s the resolution for that? You know, ’cause it seemed like it was something substantial. And I don’t know if it was based on something that really happened.

 

Louis Virtel And if it was, it’s like they didn’t find any particular details that make it stand out.

 

Kimberly Clark Right. I have a question for you. Uhhuh. So born in the USA, I remember a scene where he was walking out of the cafe, right? And his manager was

 

Louis Virtel John Landau, yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark Gives him a script and he says Paul Schaefer wrote that.

 

Louis Virtel Paul Schrader, the guy who wrote Taxi Driver, not Paul Schaefer, the David Letterman band leader. Yes. Who wrote It’s Raining Men.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh my God, he sure did. You know what? I was like going through a rabbit hole and I even told a friend, I was like, Did you know Paul Schaefer wrote a script called Reported? And I was thinking it was like a stage play or something like that.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah. I would love to hear that. I’m sure it would have been quite jovial.

 

Kimberly Clark I was like, oh okay, thank you so much. Yeah, no, Paul Schrader who wrote like Taxi Driver and American Jigalos. I know who that is. Yeah. Why did I see Paul Schaefer? I was a little tired in the movie theater.

 

Louis Virtel Also I Bruce Springsteen has famously performed on David Letterman, I think when he left the network the first time, so that connection makes sense.

 

Kimberly Clark It does, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel What did you think of Jeremy Allen White in this movie?

 

Kimberly Clark Okay. Esthetically, I think they did a pretty good job in terms of like making him Springsteeny. ‘Cause they don’t

 

Louis Virtel Really look alike. But

 

Kimberly Clark I don’t know. Is he shorter than S

 

Louis Virtel I almost certainly. I can’t imagine him being above five seven.

 

Kimberly Clark Maybe that was like probably the most blaring thing for me was maybe the height thing ’cause then I was kinda like, I don’t think Bruce Springsteen was this short. And I mean, not to be a heightist, but you know, that was

 

Louis Virtel It’s not called short in the USA. Jesus Christ. To be honest, I kind of question how good he was in this movie. Okay. There are scenes where he performs as Bruce Springsteen, and I feel like a lot of effort went into actually mimicking the s the sounds of Bruce Springsteen’s singing voice, which which is pretty good. Right. But that’s also sort of secondary to what’s actually happening in the movie. Right. I kind of felt like he was playing Bruce Springsteen as one of the outsiders. You know, it was just like everything was like a little bit like oh gosh. Like Matt Dillon.

 

Kimberly Clark Okay. Yeah. I see that.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Where it’s like I kind of get that Bruce Springsteen dresses like that.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel But like his personality is a little bit more like subtle. Yeah, subtle and like every word is perfectly chosen. Like he’s not somebody who you know, is long-winded or you know, and it I just I never felt like I was really watching Bruce Springsteen. Yeah. Not that not that you really need that in order for a biopic to be successful, but I feel like I wanted more of the specifics of him to sell this story because not enough not enough else about this story was fascinating enough.

 

Kimberly Clark No, not at all. I really think it would have been better as a documentary.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Cause Bruce is interesting.

 

Kimberly Clark When you watch him.

 

Louis Virtel When you watch him in an interview I’m like, Oh I’m hanging on every word and you’re so smart and I get where all this comes from immediately.

 

Kimberly Clark Mm-hmm. Yeah, the flashbacks to

 

Louis Virtel the childhood flash books were so fucking bad.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah. I I was like, okay.

 

Louis Virtel You had a tough childhood. And it’s like you i i there’s a song on the album on Nebraska called My Father’s House. So it’s like, Okay, let’s watch his like shitty relationship with his father, but at the same time they look like reenactments from like Rescue Nine One One or like the E true Hollywood story or something.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly. Yeah. It really and just the story itself really didn’t go anywhere. Like the very last moment with him and his dad, and his dad asking him I I I don’t want to give any spoilers. No, you can go ahead. Okay. The dad asking him to sit on his lap and stuff. I was just kind of like, you know, it was it was a moment, but at the same time, I was just kind of like, there was really not enough buildup. There was not I there was no tension.

 

Louis Virtel Like I’m not rooting for him to g to be friends with his dad.

 

Kimberly Clark No, not at all.

 

Louis Virtel The only interesting thing about that is at the end of the song Nebraska, the aforementioned one about the serial killer, the guy who’s going to the electric chair asks if h his girlfriend who did the murders with him can sit on his lap while he’s being execu executed. Really? So I was wondering if that was a call back to that. Stephen Graham, who plays Springsteen’s dad in this movie at the end of this movie, is backstage at a concert with Bruce and says, Sit on my lap, you’ve never sat on my lap before. Now, tender in a way, I guess.

 

Kimberly Clark Or Bruce told him, I’ve never you never Yes asked me. And then the dad was like, I didn’t, or you never sat on my lap. Like the dad was almost like surprised, like Yeah, we never had this moment.

 

Louis Virtel Right. So I a s I assume there’s some thematic tie in to the album there. But at the same time it’s like the the dad is treated like such a drunk asshole that I don’t see any reason for this to tie up this part of the story. Which otherwise, by the way, is about mental health and depression. Like these guys telling him to get help, et cetera. Right. And I don’t think the help really has anything to do with that part of his life.

 

Kimberly Clark Not at all. So Yeah. Yeah, I thought the dad was paying it a little bit too

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, broadly. Also, I there are actually several things that weren’t dimensional enough about this movie to me. The the most i quote unquote interesting part of the movie is when he’s fighting with people, with his manager, et cetera, to get this album put together the way he wants to. And even then it’s like Bruce is the only one who wants to do the right thing and they’re all like naysayers and exactly the way you expect. Like there’s nobody who’s like seeing it his way and like offering insight or, you know, like even Bruce like never really gets a funny moment in the movie. He’s just depressed guy with an artistic vision.

 

Kimberly Clark Right. Exactly.

 

Louis Virtel It’s like you’re constantly waiting for the movie to be as smart as Bruce Springsteen can be.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly it wasn’t able to deliver that. No. Can we talk about Mark Marin being in all these music biopics? You know, and by the way

 

Louis Virtel And and also by the way, Jeremy Strong, whenever he’s in an Oscar caliber movie, looking like a character from Guess Who? Every time and making like seven choices about ticks that you have to deal with when he’s in the movie.

 

Kimberly Clark Was he wearing a wig or what was

 

Louis Virtel What wasn’t he wearing? Everything was like a glasses and like Bruce Too much. Yeah, too much. No, you’re right. Mark Marin is just sort of everywhere.

 

Kimberly Clark He was in the Aretha Franklin movie.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Which by the way, she was underrated in that, Jennifer Hudson.

 

Kimberly Clark Jennifer was very good in that.

 

Louis Virtel I guess it was sort of a typical biopic, but like it captured something about a refund.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah. Marlon was great in that movie too. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He was great in that movie. He’s also in that movie Two Leslie with Andrea Riseboro. So he like he loves to hang around an a potential Oscar nominee.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes. I I love Mark.

 

Louis Virtel And also, I think there would have been more interesting tension to explore with the E Street band, who eventually get fired off the Nebraska album so he can put it out lo-fi. Right. And then they, of course, return eventually. But his relationship with his bandmates wasn’t explored enough. No. It’s it and and what’s weird is if I were to make a movie about Bruce Springsteen, I probably would pick this period of his life because this album is my favorite of his. I love Nebraska. Okay. And of course, it’s right before he vaults to a whole other level of stardom, which is interesting. But it really made you feel like you could have just read about it on Wikipedia, or you could have, as you said, watched a documentary in which

 

Kimberly Clark Watch the document the Billy Joel documentary is amazing.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Amazing. Yeah. I mean the two part doc it’s great. Oh, by the way, speaking of documentaries, did you see the John Candy one?

 

Kimberly Clark Not yet.

 

Louis Virtel Oh my God. When you hear Catherine O’Hara eulogize him during his funeral, watch the fuck out. This woman should be a saint.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh my God, okay. I have to see what is it streaming on?

 

Louis Virtel One of them. I mean yeah, yeah, yeah. You’ll find it on the computer. Yeah. Anyway, th I I had high hopes for this, especially since it feels like our Oscar season this year is pretty limp. Like I’m hearing that Bugonia with Emma Stone is like mid tier and it’s like even the Emma Stone movie isn’t like that exciting.

 

Kimberly Clark Well what about the Jennifer Lawrence movie? I I’m hearing I hear she’s amazing in that?

 

Louis Virtel I hear she’s amazing in that, but I also feel like it’s it’s maybe too wild for the Oscars conversation, you know. So we’ll see. We’ll see.

 

Kimberly Clark You I wish they could do like a Oscars ceremony where they can like take movies that like were the sleeper hits that should have won Oscars and just do like a category like every year. Like this was nineteen sixty seven and these movies didn’t win, but let’s see if they could win again.

 

Louis Virtel You belong you are on the right podcast because this is all I want. It’s been forty years since nineteen eighty five. Let’s give all the color purple the Oscars they deserve. Right.

 

Kimberly Clark Right.

 

Louis Virtel The original one. Yes. Can you believe how they shot I’m here in the new color purple? And it was just like her walking between some clothing wrecks?

 

Kimberly Clark I really like the original. Yes, right. That’s all I’m gonna say. Yeah. That’s all I’m gonna say.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, Margaret Avery in that movie, Oprah Winfrey.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes. The Bro and the Broadway musical is.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, of course. Did you know that one time I had a ticket to go see the version of it with Heather Headley on Broadway?

 

Kimberly Clark Ohhhh.

 

Louis Virtel And then so I was in New York for a little while and a friend of mine was like, Actually, I have fourth row tickets to Hamilton if you want to and it was the original cast. And culturally I had to pick Hamilton because everyone was talking about it. But I never got to see Heather Headley in The Color Purple, I’m sure it was amazing.

 

Kimberly Clark I’m sure it was amazing. An unfair decision. God was angry. What a angry crossroad you were at. Yes. Right. Two roads diverge.

 

Louis Virtel Right. No, it’s so upsetting. I’m sure they were like across the street from each other too. I wish I could have done both of ’em.

 

Kimberly Clark Wow.

 

Louis Virtel But anyway, sorry to Bruce Springsteen. I think they could have done better by you, but I’m sure Jeremy Ellen White will get the nomination anyway because as I said, we’re all so bored this year. When we’re back, it’s time for keep it. And we’re back with our favorite and saltiest part of the episode. It’s keep it. Kimberly, hit me. What the fuck is annoying you?

 

Kimberly Clark I’m on the TikToks and

 

Louis Virtel Oh well that’s your first mistake.

 

Kimberly Clark I know, right? The videos of women talking about how they’re decentering men, and I get the sentiment. I understand it. But they are doing the exact opposite of that by talking about it for.

 

Louis Virtel I’m thinking about the men now.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly. I’m like, do you not understand what you are doing and putting out into the universe? Like, you know, where attention goes, it you know, the energy what is what’s the saying? Where attention goes, energy grows.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I wish. No. But I’m inspired nonetheless.

 

Kimberly Clark But just saying it’s like you are coming up saying, Okay, I’m decentering men, but really you’re trying to focus the energy on you. And so they spend like ten minutes, twenty minutes, however long the video is, talking about how they’re decenter. And it’s like you’re praising them. You’re saying men, men over and over again.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark You know what I mean?

 

Louis Virtel It’s like you have an addiction. Yes.

 

Kimberly Clark There is an addiction. You know, it’s like if you were really dissentering, you know, you would be one of these women that spell women W O M Y N.

 

Louis Virtel Sure.

 

Kimberly Clark You know what I’m saying? Like

 

Louis Virtel You’d be in a pottery collective somewhere.

 

Kimberly Clark Thank you. Wearing your Birkinstocks and

 

Louis Virtel By the way, allow me. I have no problem doing that. Listen.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, so it just really keep it. Keep all those videos, man, and just put that energy into yourself. Stop talking about what you’re do just do it. Don’t even talk about it. Just do it.

 

Louis Virtel Is there a particular TikToker who is ab most obnoxious about this?

 

Kimberly Clark It’s all of ’em. They all d a lot of them do it. I don’t know which I don’t I don’t really know the names of these people.

 

Louis Virtel It feels weird to actually know a TikToker’s name. I’m sorry. Some people don’t deserve to be known like that.

 

Kimberly Clark But I look at them though and I you know, they’re entertaining, but then I’m like, you’re saying you don’t want this central in your life, but you’re again, you’re giving it all this attention.

 

Louis Virtel Also decentering is a very specific term. It’s saying this was the light in my life, and now I’m trying to face another direction.

 

Kimberly Clark Now I’m gonna put the light behind me.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark It’s gonna be a back light now.

 

Louis Virtel It’s like the Wicked movie. Everything’s backlit now.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, it’s backlit. It’s just like, come on, girls. Come on, girls. Get some hobbies.

 

Louis Virtel You know how I decentralized men just not finding them interesting almost ever? Like to have to sit there and even Bruce Springstein, who’s one of the greatest men I can think of, very hard to just focus on him for two hours.

 

Kimberly Clark Right, right, right.

 

Louis Virtel I’m like, oh, can we think about another per like Suzanne Vega? Or like, is it time for Lauren Hill yet?

 

Kimberly Clark But you know what’s funny too about that too is like these women say to do this and then like I’m sure like right after they’re done filming their video they’re like straddling somebody. You know what I’m saying?

 

Louis Virtel They turn off the camera and they’re just like, Let me line up five men.

 

Kimberly Clark Let me get it in. You know what I’m saying? So it’s like, come on now. Anyway.

 

Louis Virtel Okay. Keep it, keep it. Not to centralize me a man. I know it’s so disappointing that I’m one of them. But my Keep It this week goes to somebody who I otherwise love and think is a fabulous celebrity. She’s already come up this episode, Jennifer Lawrence. She was talking about on her old press tours, you know, when she was sort of coming up in the industry and she was an Oscar nominee for movies like Winter’s Bone, an Oscar winner for Silver Lennings playbook, how she understands that people were annoyed with her because I watched old videos of myself and she says I was annoying. Can I just say something? Jennifer Lawrence, if she’s annoying, everybody in the universe is annoying. The girl was a fabulous celebrity from the jump. I found her constantly funny. In a way nobody demanded of her. Like she’s very like kind of droll and chill and knowledgeable. If you feel obligated to call yourself annoying, it’s because men aren’t used to listening to a woman speak for more than five seconds. Right. I’m sorry, like so smart, so capable, seemingly could do anything. Like her movies have like nothing to do with each other. Like how is the same person in Mother, the same person in Winter’s Bone? I mean, it just doesn’t make any sense. She’s extremely talented. I just don’t feel like being a little quippy or awkward sometimes or whatever she thought was annoying about her old videos is worth apologizing for that.

 

Kimberly Clark She thought it was annoying?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark Well, maybe she thought it was annoying because maybe she was putting that on and it wasn’t really authentic to who she really was. Possibly.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, well that’s true.

 

Kimberly Clark I’m not saying that that’s true, but maybe that’s it.

 

Louis Virtel You know, but I don’t demand constant authenticity of everybody, you know. If you need to go off, so to speak, you know, just like you’re on camera and you’ve got to say something, like.

 

Kimberly Clark Turn it on. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Please. Turn it on. Use the improv chops.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes, absolutely.

 

Louis Virtel We’ve all taken that groundless class.

 

Kimberly Clark Maybe it’s a maybe it’s a maturity thing too, you know.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Yeah, you’re right. I mean I I I’m sure she’s reflecting on being in her early twenties and now she’s in her thirties.

 

Kimberly Clark Yes.

 

Louis Virtel And I think necessarily, you know, if we all look back at our tweets from that time and when you’re a certain age, like I am, you had a lot of tweets at that time.

 

Kimberly Clark I was an idiot in my twenties. I’m like, wish I could get some of my record expunged.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure. Well, I just feel like there’s so much you have to go through just to get the other side. Like, for instance, when I was a comic in my early twenties, I was specifically very profane. And I thought that was really novel at the time. But then you kind of do that enough times and you don’t care anymore. It’s like looking at footage of yourself at a childhood birthday party. You’re like, Why was I such a mess eating cake like that? Right.

 

Kimberly Clark Exactly.

 

Louis Virtel Am I the only person who had like a clear fun fatty addiction? Yeah. To this day. Who knows what with cream cheese icing? Come on now.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh, you just triggered me with cream cheese.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, yeah. If I think about Nebraska too long, I’m sorry, we’re gonna go back to the cream cheese blast.

 

Kimberly Clark Yeah, yeah, we were.

 

Louis Virtel I can’t I can’t be there long. Anyway, that is our episode. Kimberly, you have a lot of comedy coming up this week. Where can we find you?

 

Kimberly Clark Yes. I’m actually gonna be at the dress up show at the Roosevelt Hotel.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, right next to where I work at Camel.

 

Kimberly Clark Oh dope. Come by. I will. Yeah, that’s gonna be at eight o’clock on Halloween.

 

Louis Virtel Oh okay. Yeah do you have a specific Halloween set in mind or no?

 

Kimberly Clark No, but you know, I was supposed to be Rick James for Halloween. That’s the whole reason why I got my Oh sure. Bangs cut. But

 

Louis Virtel I consider myself one of the Mary Jane girls. Yes.

 

Kimberly Clark Which one? Jojo?

 

Louis Virtel Yes. My house.

 

Kimberly Clark In my…okaay.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, oh yeah. I l oh I love Rick James. I’m I’m actually a super fan of Tina Marie.

 

Kimberly Clark T she was amazing.

 

Louis Virtel What was up with her? She could do anything. She would go off.

 

Kimberly Clark She was like, yeah. Motown artist.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark I’m gonna be Audrey Hepburn, I think, from Breakfast at Tiffany.

 

Louis Virtel Oh.

 

Kimberly Clark That’s gonna be my look.

 

Louis Virtel A lot of that movie remains very underrated. I mean, like she she has a number of performances where a lot’s going on that I don’t think people can give her credit for, but Refusitivities, which is the most famous one, still a lot to mine in that movie. Oh yeah. Excusing the racism of the Mickey Bruty character. Of course. Yeah.

 

Kimberly Clark I wish I could just take that.

 

Louis Virtel Even just the teeth.

 

Kimberly Clark They could take that part out and it would do nothing to the movie. Totally, totally. It would do nothing to the movie. Anyway.

 

Louis Virtel Umm, Kimberly, thank you so much for being here.

 

Kimberly Clark Thank you for having me. So much fun.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you to Jeremy Allen White for trying. And thank you also to Justine Lupe for being here today. We’ll see you next week. But until then, you can entertain yourself looking at the Keep It Socials, Keep It Show on Instagram where I’m blabbing about whatever, ranking things, unranking things, and then re-ranking them again. Join us there, and we’ll see you next week. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Keep it is a crooked media production. Our producer is Bill McGrath. Our associate producer is Kennedy Hill, and our executive producers are Louis Virtel, Ira Madison III, and Kendra James. Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gajewski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centenno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week. Our head of production is Matt DeGroot. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.