When White People Try to Put You to Sleep (with Michael Harriot & Morgan the Producer) | Crooked Media
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October 19, 2023
Stuck with Damon Young
When White People Try to Put You to Sleep (with Michael Harriot & Morgan the Producer)

In This Episode

Michael Harriot, author of Black AF History, joins Damon for a discussion on the history of the word “woke” and the real world danger of writing the truth about white people. Then, Morgan the Producer helps Damon discuss how Jada Pickett-Smith’s recent comments on her and Will Smith’s “marriage” change Damon’s opinion on the Chris Rock Oscars slap.





Michael Harriot: They always seek to demonize the most innocuous term like who doesn’t want to be awake? [music plays]


Damon Young: So welcome back everyone, to another episode of Stuck With Damon Young, the show where our third eye stays open. Our fourth eye too, because niggas wear glasses. So the word woke is just the latest term to be repurposed by American racists who have a long and destructive history of attempting to rewrite history so that white people are always on the right side of it. And today, I’m joined by Michael Harriot, author of the instant New York Times bestseller Black AF History to talk about this. And also just the very real material danger of a Black American author telling the truth about white people. And then Morgan the producer, comes back again as we ponder whether the new revelations about Will and Jada’s separation put the infamous Oscar slap in a different context. All right y’all. Let’s get it. [music plays] Michael Harriot is a columnist at theGrio and the author of the instant New York Times bestseller Black AF History. Michael, what’s good man?


Michael Harriot: I’m good, man. How are you? 


Damon Young: I’m good. I’m good. I mean, we were talking offline about that hoodie. You know, when people see the social video of this, they will get a chance to see the hoodie that I’m looking at right now, which is a black and yellow hoodie with the Wu-Tang insignia over the American flag. Well, it’s superimposed on the flag where the stars would be. Disclosure. Back when I was in high school, I wasn’t just into the Wu. I felt like I was in the Wu. [laughter] You know what I mean, like I had like the fisherman caps, the fatigues, the fuckin Clark Wallabee. You know, I used to go to the Army-Navy store and buy up everything there. I used to get all the Wu wear I wasn’t just into, I was into Killarmy, Sunz of Man. [laughter] You know what I mean? Black Knights Of The Northstar, Gravediggaz. Like I could go down the line. Shyheim. And so seeing the Wu hoodie just brings joy to my heart. So thank you for that. 


Michael Harriot: Were you trying to chart a path because I think everybody did this when they were young. Chart a path where you could somehow become an actual member of the Wu-Tang Clan. Like, like maybe they have open auditions or they might hear my demo tape and be like, You know what? He’d make a good Wu member. 


Damon Young: I feel like I am like in that 10% and niggas who never wanted to be a rapper [laughs] right? That was never an aspiration of mine, which is crazy because as much as I’ve been into rap and obviously in the writing, but rapping was is never an aspiration of mine at all. Not even like jokingly. Like the hoop thing was obviously. But rapping. No. So I was fine, with just you know what I mean? I’ll listen to the Wu. I just want you all to continue to produce music and I want you to continue to use RZA as the executive producer. [laughs] And boom. 


Michael Harriot: I was in and 90% of people who was trying to figure out how I could become a rapper. But again, I was probably one of the 10% of people who knew I was never going to play professional sports. So I think it all equals out. [laughter]


Damon Young: Yeah, that’s nigga math right there. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean, we just did a nigga math problem. So you recently were in New York City, to be part of like an ideas festival at the Apollo Theater, right? 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: And you were on stage, I think, with Nikole, Nikole Hannah-Jones, Ibram Kendi, Ta-Nehisi Coates, was Ta-Nehisi part of your panel?


Michael Harriot: He was wasn’t part of my panel, but he was the organizer. 


Damon Young: Okay. So you had Nikole, you had Ibram. You who else? 


Michael Harriot: Jelani Cobb and Yaba Blay.


Damon Young: And what was your particular panel about? Again?


Michael Harriot: It was about wokeness. And like the consternation and the opposition to this thing called wokeness. And basically we just talked about the title, I think it was, Why does wokeness upset you? So that’s basically what the conversation was about. 


Damon Young: Well, Michael, as someone who has pretty much been at white people’s throats [laughs] for about the past decade, publicly at least, how do you answer that question? 


Michael Harriot: First of all, there’s not like a new movement against wokeness it’s part of this long movement we, like, I guess if Martin Luther King was alive today, he’d be considered woke, right? They call the woke people to same thing like they say as communists. Same thing they called Martin Luther King. Right. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: Same thing they called Malcolm X and the Black Panthers and everybody. So, you know, it’s just a new name that white people came up with for the same movement that they’ve started since we were emancipated from slavery, whether it was anti-lynching or abolition even before the end of enslavement. It’s always been some version of wokeness that white people were clutching their pearls at and trying to eliminate. So I don’t know, because it’s hard to really try to figure out white people for me. And so I don’t try. I think about the consequences of their actions and the result of their actions, but like delving into the minds of white people to figure out the root cause is something that is probably beyond my pay grade and my ability to do. 


Damon Young: And to your point, you know, woke, this is just latest iteration of words that have been twisted and reconfigured, but also a sentiment that has been twisted and reconfigured in any sort of progressive movement throughout American history has been fought against. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: And fought with violence, not just words, but with violence, with bloodshed. You know what I mean? And this progressive movement today is being fought with words and also with violence. Right. And it’s funny, part of the violence is in trying to repurpose language. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah.


Damon Young: And to describe something which is just people were trying to be more aware, more conscious, more empathetic, you know what I mean? More mindful of history, more mindful of how your actions affect other people, and trying to repurpose that as something that is hurtful or something that’s harmful, something that doesn’t need to be at schools. You know what I mean? Something that is actually destructive. Right. You know, we were both in college in the nineties and, you know, work was a term that was used even then and woke at that time was used to describe people who were like aggressively conscious, almost like a tongue in cheek, like stay woke, like, oh, yeah that nigga’s woke, you know what I mean and it was an intra community, a interracial term. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean? And it wasn’t necessarily describing someone as being like a bad thing, but like, okay, this person’s a little extra. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean. [laughs]


Michael Harriot: It was levels. It was like you were, first of all, you were conscious. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: And then above conscious you were woke. 


Damon Young: Yeah. 


Michael Harriot: And then, like after woke, then you probably, like, use your third eye. You know, you were careful to make sure that your food was alkaline or was it too much alkaline or not enough alkaline? 


Damon Young: [laughs] I don’t even know what alkaline means. I just know that having too much or not enough of it was like the worst possible thing. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah, it’ll throw off your third eye man. I mean, like, it’ll make your third eye shut.


Damon Young: Yeah. When I think alkaline I think of batteries. 


Michael Harriot: But you know what’s interesting about those like how they co-opt those terms is that they always seek to demonize the most innocuous term, like who doesn’t want to be awake? Who doesn’t want to be [laughs] like. Like, even like they get mad at Black Lives Matter civil rights. Not you know, we don’t want all this stuff like we all want to hurt you, just like we just want that to be civil. And it’s always the most innocuous terms. What makes you know that? Like, there’s no kind of word that we could come up or description that we could come up for the movement to exist in this space that we call America that wouldn’t be demonized. I don’t even know why we try to explain what woke means or what Black Lives Matter means or what civil rights mean, because it’s going to be demonized no matter how innocuous it is. Like there’s going to be one day and an alive movement and the white people are going to be against the why are we got these Black people starting this alive movement? I am anti alive. And so we should just stop trying to kind of explain it to white people, because if we can’t be awake, we can’t be woke. If we can’t say that our lives actually matter. I don’t even know what we even doing here. 


Damon Young: Yeah, it’s the bare minimum. I mean, you’re asking for the civility, to be alive and to be awake, right? [laughter] Those are, like, bare minimum. 


Michael Harriot: Nah bro, we can’t do that. Why are y’all asking so much? [laughter] Right. That’s how we. We’re gonna try. But that’s a real big ask for y’all.


Damon Young: Yeah, and that zone that’s above like. Okay, so you have conscious then you have woke. Then you have third eye. And I think that can be called the Kyrie zone now I think. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. Yeah.


Damon Young: Going for it that’s just the Kyrie zone. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. I think this is called the Kyrie. I love it too man. Like a few years ago. Like. Well some people don’t know that I am really into poetry and like a few years ago when that remember when Kyrie said because everybody remembers when Kyrie was kind of tweeting about the Hebrew Israelites. But people seem to forget remember when he said, well, how y’all know, the earth is round? 


Damon Young: Of course, they call them World B Flat. That was his nickname for a bit. [laughter]


Michael Harriot: Yeah. And I wrote this poem for the National Poetry Slam, it’s probably still on the Internet somewhere about like, what if maybe the world is flat? I mean, if you can’t be awake, then how do you know? See, that’s what you woke people started this round Earth movement that’s a fool doesn’t believe that the Earth ain’t shaped like a dinner plate. 


Damon Young: And the thing is, Kyrie is not the only NBA player, not the only NBA star who is, you know, played around with the Earth’s lack of curvature and has brought that to the public. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean? There’s a guy I won’t say his name, but he wears number 30 plays out in the Bay Area. Pretty popular guy who also. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: [laughs] Okay. Was suspicious of how the earth is. 


Michael Harriot: We living on a CD on God’s CD case. 


Damon Young: Yeah. So getting back to the woke thing and also congratulations. You know your book Black AF History. Now should people say as fuck or just AF? 


Michael Harriot: I say it both ways sometimes depending on like how old the people are who are around me because I had to explain to my mother in law what AF meant. [laughter] So, you know, first I try to explain it in layman’s terms, and then I was like, it means as, f, u, blank k. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot:  can’t even spell it. So I say it both ways. It just depends on the audience who I’m talking to. 


Damon Young: I was wearing a Black as fuck T-shirt in the airport, which are T-shirts that you started selling right back in, like, what, 2016, maybe 2015, 2016? 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: And I bought one and I was wearing. One of them in an airport. This was back in like 2017. White man sees me and is like, oh, was that like for to like the Black Air Force? [laughs]


Michael Harriot: That’s what I would tell white people that it meant. Right. Yeah. I was in the Black Air Force. It’s a special program that recruits from HBCU’s to get people to more Black officers in the Air Force. 


Damon Young: I didn’t keep the jig up, I told him yeah it’s Black as fuck. And he looked at me. It’s like, Oh. And then that was it. That was the end of the conversation. He just said, Oh. And then I went to my gate and he. I don’t know what he did, but yeah, that was it. 


Michael Harriot: Well, at least he didn’t say, Well, if a white person said they were white AF, then how would that make you feel. Then I’d be like, like he’s white as fuck. [laughter] So yeah, at least you got the least troubling part of it. 


Damon Young: No. And again, your book is the New York Times best seller, so congratulations on that. [laughs] Right. And so this is something that I’ve been curious about with you. And we’ve talked about a lot of things through the years. But I don’t know if I’ve had this conversation with you before about, okay, so you famously have these long threads on Twitter which, you know, some of them go pretty viral. Your book is doing pretty well. And most of the people who retweet these threads and I’m assuming most of the people who buy your book, although there aren’t any like sales numbers I can look at right now. But knowing how the industry works, we could presume that most of the people who bought your book are probably white. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Right. And most of the people who retweet your threads, you know, and your threads are going at white supremacy, going out, white people. But these are white people who are saying, yeah, this is that good shit right here. This is the shit that we need to be spreading, retweeting, whatever. And so for someone who speaks so unapologetically about race, about whiteness, about racism in your work, how do you feel about having so many white fans also? 


Michael Harriot: Well, you know this right. 


Damon Young: Yeah. 


Michael Harriot: So if white people like it, you sometimes question yourself like, wait, wait, what am I doing wrong? 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: But, you know, behind the scenes, you always get as much hate as you get as much public love, right? 


Damon Young: Yeah. 


Michael Harriot: You know, white people, a lot of times surprise. They aren’t as as public and as vociferous about their hate as they are about the things that they agree with. And so I kind of balance it with the hate mail and hate DM’s and people in my email and in my DM’s calling me the N-word, that balances it out. But the other thing is right. You also know that is still a small percentage of white people who are even agreeing with you. Right. Like, if it’s all of the white people who agree with me, it’s still a tiny bit of the percentage. So in a sense, you know, I kind of know that if you’re following me on Twitter because of the way the algorithm works, you preaching to the choir anyway? 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: And so, you know, if you see a tweet of mine or a thread of mine, I assume that you’re following me. And I assume that you probably agree with me anyway. So that eases the consternation about, you know, am I saying the wrong thing if white people like it? 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: And I think that’s like if you do anything in America, no matter how Black it is, you realize that, you know, for it to be successful, if it goes beyond your idea of success, it’s probably because, you know, white people are buying it, whether it’s a hip hop group or music or a TV show. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: If it pops beyond Black people, it’s because white people are buying it. 


Damon Young: And you spoke to a few anxieties that I’ve had, still have, you know, in some capacity. The first one is, you know, something you mentioned is like, well, you know, is my work as radical as I think it is if so many white people are loving it. [laughs] Right. You know, I don’t just talk about race. I have other you know, I talk about other things, anxieties of consciousness, basketball, sex, whatever that I’m talking about. Right. And I know I have fans based off of that, too. But then there’s like the race stuff, which I think when I was at the root, even going back when I was still writing on VSB more regularly, I have more of that content, just, you know, coming out, coming out week after week and day after day, actually. And I would always wonder like, well, if saying, is this doing what I wanted to do, if it’s getting this response, you know, at the same time it’s like, well, there are people who just appreciate the writing and the humor because it’s not just, you know, oh, white supremacy’s fucked up in a blog. Like there’s jokes in it, there’s language in it, there’s enology, there’s storytelling, there’s all of that. Right? And you can appreciate all of that and also appreciate the underlying, you know, premise. But that was an anxiety. Right. And also too you know, I’m a keep it a buck. You spoke about some of the hate. Right. And if you do this for a living, you have to develop hella thick skin again, cause that’s going to come like you’re going to get people calling you nigga or you’re going to get hate mail, you’re going to get messages. That’s just par for the course. Right. But as you know, I got doxxed a couple of years back. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. 


Damon Young: And that kind of flipped it because it’s not just online now, like, oh, shit these motherfucker’s know where I live? And that changed things a bit. You know what I mean? Now, I’m curious if you’ve had any experience with that part of it, like in terms of like, you know what? Yeah. Online this words that whatever, I don’t give a fuck. But actual feeling or actually being cognizant of like an actual material physical threat. And it also should be stated too that we live in different parts of the country and that matters too. 


Michael Harriot: Yeah. So I live around the real white people, like the white people that people see on TV wearing the Trump shirts and the Make America Great Again stuff. I live around them like it’s like we think of it in theory as like these little pockets that are scattered around America. But I live around like where most of the white people are like that. I used to live in Alabama until a couple of years ago, just moved to rural Florida. Now I live in a majority Black well, both were majority Black town, but now I live really just like 80% Black, all Black people around me. But that threat is real, man. I’ve seen it just yesterday. Security guy for another Black writer pulled me aside and was like, Hey, you just be walking around like that? [laughter] And I was like, It made me think. Yeah. And I’ve been places, for instance, on my book tour, I was in Saint Louis and a Black police officer pulled me aside and was like, Hey, you know, just so we know, we had like a credible threat from, you know, one of the extremist groups in town. And so there are like undercover people in the audience just because we know they’re here looking for you. So I’ve had those threats. I don’t know what to do with them. Like, I don’t know, can you have enough security to make yourself white people proof? I don’t know if you can do that. I take the necessary precautions. One of the lucky things about me is like my children are adults now and kind of don’t live with me. 


Damon Young: Hmm. 


Michael Harriot: So I’m not burdened with that. But it’s always a concern. But in a sense, it’s kind of like a heightened version of the concern that all of us live with, like existing in America. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: And other thing about that, going back to what you said earlier about that, like white people accepting you. One of the things I always am cognizant of is like the people who think, for instance, like when you question, are you radical enough, sometimes the reason you kind of promote it even by white people is because they can say, hey, he is the radical Black guy that I agree with. I don’t have to do shit. I just can retweet a radical Black guy and it justifies me, you know, not doing anything right. Like this is my safety pin. I’m allowed a white people’s safety pin. Because we talk unapologetically. So I don’t know, you know, what I could do. I’m not under the assumption that I’m actually convincing white people to change, and I don’t know what I could do to stop white people from doing the things that white people have done since the beginning of America. 


Damon Young: Thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. Because, I mean, is a part of this work where you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist. And it’s like, well, if you know that it exists, then it’s like, okay, so do you let it affect your work? Does it have even like a subconscious effect on what you write, what you say, how you move, how you exist in the world? And you know, I will say that for like the first few months after the doxxing or whatever, it did have an effect on me. If I went back and read some of my stuff. I think that I was writing the same way. But I think I was thinking about it differently. And this had happened like right after they had stormed the Capitol, so I’m like these motherfuckers do anything. [laughter] You know what I mean, and that part of it did get to me. I’m not going to pretend like it didn’t. And so I guess for you, has getting that sort of attention had any effect on how you feel about your work and on your work on the work you produce? 


Michael Harriot: I think anybody would be lying if they’ll say it didn’t make them consider how they present themselves and their ideas. But first of all, so I was kind of home schooled and until I was almost a teenager and, you know, lived in a Black community. So I never learned that subconscious deference to whiteness that a lot of people have. So I generally don’t know how to do it. And, you know this, like, I don’t want to say it’s hard like being a janitor or working in a factory, but writing is not easy, right? And then to add another layer of trying to figure out what white people would like would make it even easier. The easiest thing for me is because I don’t have to center white people in what I write. My mom used to say this thing right? Like it’s easy if you just do what’s right. Like, you don’t have to consider all the other nuances and the shades of gray if you just always default to I’m a just do what’s right. And I think that’s what I, I generally defer to. The easiest thing to do is just to say what’s right and let the consequences fall where they may. So in a sense, I’m choosing the easiest route by not deferring the whiteness. 


Damon Young: Well, I think there are two easiest routes are to do what’s right and then to take the Jason Whitlock path and do what’s white [laughter] right. I feel like those are the two, those are the two easy places to go. 


Michael Harriot: But even when you do what you like, what Whitlock does, though, you still got to be chose, right? Like, so here’s a question I’ve always thought about who are Jason Whitlock’s fans? Because, like, I don’t think that white people like Jason Whitlock. Like, they’re not thinking of him as a really interesting thinker, right? I think that most of the people who listen to Jason Whitlock, even though they disagree with him, like who he makes news with and who why he’s retweeted and gets on social media so often. It’s because Black people are saying, isn’t he stupid? Not white people saying, isn’t he smart? Right. And so Jason Whitlock might have a bigger Black audience than I have. Right. [laughs] They might be just hate watching him. 


Damon Young: It’s the hate listen. They hate watch and listen. Yeah. 


Michael Harriot: Right. But when you look at, for instance, who retweets, Jason Whitlock it’s probably a bigger percentage of Black people than who are retweeting me. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: He exists to cause havoc and frenzy among Black people, not to like enlighten white people or to present an opposite point of view. He’s like—


Damon Young: He’s a chaos agent. He’s literally and like, literally an opp.


Michael Harriot: And yeah, he’s the definition of an opp. What. I called him. [laughs] I called him a oxpecker once because an oxpecker is this little bird that hangs on the back of a hippo or a dangerous animal. But the animals don’t shoot them away because the oxpecker eats ticks. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Michael Harriot: So he’s the oxpecker on the back of white people who’s just eating the ticks, so he makes them feel more comfortable. But he’s not an enemy to the other birds or to other things. He’s just a friend of the hippopotamus. And, like, I’d rather be whatever I am than an oxpecker.


Damon Young: Michael Harriot, thank you for coming through. Black AF History. Black As Fuck History, however you want to pronounce it, is in stores. Please go cop it. Go buy it. Did a tremendous thing and re-imagined. I wouldn’t say reimagining history, because reimagining makes it seem like, you know, you’re presenting an alternative history when you’re actually just like, oh, this is the truth. This isn’t a reimagination. This is just almost a reinterpretation of things that have been interpreted, have been fed to us, have been taught to us. But like, this is actually what happened and why it happened. [music plays]


Michael Harriot: Exactly. 


Damon Young: All right. Thanks again, Mike. 


Michael Harriot: Thanks for having me, man. 


Damon Young: No doubt. Next, dear Damon with Morgan the producer. But first, Damon hates. [music plays] Okay. So a couple of weeks ago, I was recording a show with Gene Demby from Code Switch, and we were in the middle of recording and I get a really hard knock on my door, you know what I mean? And it’s one of those knocks where it’s like, yo, is this an emergency? Do I need to move my car? Is it the motherfucking police? So I go down to see who’s at my door and it’s a constable. And they were there to deliver a warrant for me. Now, it wasn’t for like, a criminal charge. It’s because of a traffic thing that happened last year. And I guess the citation I didn’t pay it or it got lost in the mail or something. And so I have to go through this whole process of like paying a citation and pleading not guilty. I made an illegal left turn. Okay, So that’s what happened. But this isn’t about that. Motherfucker came to my door with a gun. Now, he didn’t have the gun drawn, right? Didn’t have anything like that. But it was holstered. And it’s just like to tell someone about a traffic violation. You really need to have someone pounding on the door and also someone armed who has just been pounding on your door. So let’s say I’m in a bad mood. Let’s say I come downstairs and I’m like, Yo, who the fuck is pounding on my door? And now you’ve got this man with a gun, you know who is serving me because of some traffic shit? And now who knows what the fuck could possibly happen as a result of this, right? And it’s just one of those things when we talk about how guns are everywhere in America, the proliferation of guns and how we own more guns per capita than anywhere else in the world, our fucking police and not just police, but the people who are like supplemental police. I don’t even know what a constable does, right? All these people are armed to the teeth too. There should not be a person with a gun who is doing this interaction. You’re just giving me a citation. You’re just letting me know about a ticket or whatever that I didn’t pay for a year ago. Whatever. Fine. Why does someone with a gun need to come to my door and fucking knock on my door? This nigga knocked on my door like someone with a gun right, now. He was pleasant, but still. And again it’s one of those situations where I think we just take it for granted that police, you know, police are going to have guns and people have guns and it’s like, I don’t know what the solution is, you know what I mean? Because as long as there are so many people with guns, I can actually see a justification for why police feel like they need to have guns because they don’t know if someone is armed or not. But it’s still it’s just a fucked up thing and just one of the many fucked up things about living, about existing, and about trying to survive in this fucked up country. [music plays] Morgan the producer is obviously one of the producers on the show. She is also a gossip evangelist. And we both want to spread the gospel of gossip. Morgan what’s good?


Morgan Moody: Hello. 


Damon Young: Do people recognize you as Morgan, the producer in the street yet? Are people like, Oh, that’s Morgan, the producer? 


Morgan Moody: No, nobody recognizes me off of my face. But people do recognize me, recognize my voice. 


Damon Young: So they hear you coming. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Okay. 


Morgan Moody: Which I don’t know if that’s, you know, positive or what. I think I have a very pitchy voice. And then we have this Appalachian like accent. So it’s like, okay. [laughs]


Damon Young: I think you have a great voice for radio which is not a compliment usually. [laughs]


Morgan Moody: A great face for radio is like calling me ugly. 


Damon Young: Okay, great face for radio. And the thing is, you look different a lot, so. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: People might have, like, a certain image of how you’re going to look. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: And then they see you in person as like, this is a different person. This isn’t Morgan the producer, so that could be happening too. Plus Now you got the new glasses. You have the new prescription. 


Morgan Moody: I do have new glasses. 


Damon Young: Okay. And where’d you get those? 


Morgan Moody: I got these from Heidioptics in downtown. They have, like, a lot of really cool frames. If you’re a person who wears glasses, like, I don’t wear contacts. So this is my statement. 


Damon Young: I tried putting contacts in about 20 years ago. It was just too much of an ordeal. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: Some people have things like, okay, go to the dentist. I have no problem with people doing stuff on my teeth, working on them, drilling, scraping, whatever. That’s not a thing for me. 


Morgan Moody: Right. 


Damon Young: But eyes. Like you get near my eyes. I’m ready to punch the shit out of you. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Like I’m blinking, I’m flinching, like I, and so putting contacts in. Just never really was a thing for me. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. No, I’m terrible at the eye doctor. And I preface them with the fact that I am, you know, like, you can’t put drops in my eyes. 


Damon Young: I will blink. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. I also, like, Googled when I was young, like, eye disease or something. And just from what, I’m good. So. Yeah, I keep my hands out of my eyes. [laughter]


Damon Young: Okay, great. Ryan the producer. What do we got going this week? 


Ryan Wallerson: Dear Damon, given the recent Jada Pinkett revelations about her relationship with Will Smith, does your perspective of the infamous Chris Rock Oscar slap change at all? 


Morgan Moody: I keep my hands out of my eyes, but I keep my nose [laughter] all up in their business. 


Damon Young: This is a perfect question, I think, for us, because okay, I think that and we talked about this earlier today is like there are two types of people in the world, right? People who pretend they’re not interested in gossip and people who like to tell the truth. [laughs] Okay. And we fall under the ladder. 


Morgan Moody: We are gossip activists. 


Damon Young: Yeah. I mean, and the thing is, everyone is interested in information. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Right. And that’s all gossip is, is information. And I like to know things. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: About people I do. Doesn’t always mean it’s going to impact how I act around them or how I feel about them. But I just like to know things. And there’s nothing wrong with knowing things. 


Morgan Moody: Right. 


Damon Young: I think people are gossip shamed, you know, I think gossip has this connotation of like, okay, if someone is a gossip or someone is gossipy, then that means spreading lies and spreading rumors about people, which is wrong. Right. But that’s wrong. But I don’t think it’s wrong to receive information and then to talk to a friend about the information that you both received. 


Morgan Moody: Also from one gossip activist, I really do like. I love celebrity gossip. Like I’m happy to fill Wendy Williams shoes if she passes that baton. But also if people are saying the same things about you year after year, like it’s, you know, not one rumor, but it’s it’s constant. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Morgan Moody: I tend to think, you know, that’s coming from someplace. It can’t all be lies. 


Damon Young: Yeah. Yeah. If there’s enough smoke, there’s a good chance there’s some fire there. And also, gossip has, like, this gender connotation too where gossip is considered, you know, more of a quote unquote “feminine” thing to do. But the biggest gossips that I know are cis het men. And the thing is, sports is nothing but motherfucking gossip now. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: Trade rumors. You know, this teammate in the past has got a ball. Does he feel in a way about that? All the fucking athletes have podcasts now and it’s filled with nothing but gossip. [laughter] Okay? You know, And which is this, you know, interpretations of why someone did this thing or why someone did that thing. 


Morgan Moody: Rumors of a trade are gossip. That’s just sports gossip. 


Damon Young: Yeah. And again, I think that we just need to lift the veil, stop pretending that most people are not interested in gossip. And again, there’s no gender, nothing. It’s just this is a thing that people are interested in. It just depends on which type of gossip you’re most interested in. 


Morgan Moody: What are the boys saying about about Will and Jada? 


Damon Young: I think that from what I have seen on the Internet, the recent revelation is that in this came from interview, which Jada Pinkett Smith is doing in anticipation of her upcoming memoir title of the memoir is Worthy and her, and Will have been separated for seven years. Now.


Morgan Moody: Which was news. 


Damon Young: And that’s that’s big news. And in a way, she framed it. It’s not just like a separation. It’s like, oh, yeah, we’re not together. 


Morgan Moody: Like they’re living separate lives. 


Damon Young: We’re not a marriage in the traditional sense, even though we are technically still married. I think it changes a lot, you know what I mean? All of the Red Table Talk, all of the memes, all the conversation about entanglements. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: All of that is put in a different context now because of us now knowing that, oh, they haven’t even been together. They weren’t even like, married. 


Morgan Moody: Right. 


Damon Young: Or I mean, they’re married, but they’re not together. Right? And so to slap—


Morgan Moody: All that. All that. 


Damon Young: Yes. 


Morgan Moody: And, and she comes out to say like, you know, it’s not even my nigga like. [laughter]


Damon Young: What I’m seeing. And I think that, I think it basically comes down to who people like more. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: Right. So people who maybe like Will a bit more than Jada have have painted Jada as like this demon devil woman who has just been playing him and playing everyone, you know, for her own celebrity, for our own, you know, nefarious reasons. Right. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: And Will is just like some innocent victim in all of this. And then other people are just like, actually no Jada has been real since day one. She has been real. She’s been free. And niggas just don’t like a real and free Black woman. 


Morgan Moody: Hmm. Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: And so the negative reaction she’s giving is a product of her just being radically free and radically. I don’t give a fuck about what y’all niggas think and that, you know, people feeling that way, you know, has an effect on people who feel like women should be more concerned about reputation and more concerned about tradition and etiquette and gendered expectations of relationships related to roles. So anyway, back to the slap [laughter] Morgan. Has this new information changed how you felt, how you feel, what you thought, what you think about the slap? 


Morgan Moody: I think everybody felt the same way. And like according to Jada’s like recent interviews for her, like press for the book. She said that she thought that the slap was like fake. You know, she thought he was joking until he, like, started walking back to their seats. And I mean, we all thought that, like, I think we all thought that it was, you know, in some way fake just because— 


Damon Young: Yeah, it felt like a bit. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. Because it’s one because it’s Chris Rock, you know, it’s donkey. And then also it’s. [laughter] No he’s about to play like Martin Luther King Jr, which is—


Damon Young: It’s ludicrous. That’s ludicrous. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: I’m sorry. I’m all for artistic expression and stretching, you know, what you’re able to do and what you can and can’t do as an actors and artists. But that’s that’s ridiculous. 


Morgan Moody: That slap is what got him here. He’s probably like, You guys owe me because you didn’t protect me from Will Smith. [laughter] You’re giving me the role that I need. 


Damon Young: Okay. 


Morgan Moody: So the things that she has revealed has been that she thought it was a bit like we all did. And then too, that like at some point in the past, you know, decade since they’ve been maybe separate it that Chris Rock has hit on her and Chris Rock has been single, you know, so able to do that. But, you know, so it’s kind of giving a lot more context to things. But if you’re separated and you have been for, you know, the better part of seven years, I don’t understand the motivation or energy behind it because this might be information that’s like news to us is the public. I think we all knew that they at least had an unconventional marriage. But. 


Damon Young: Yeah. 


Morgan Moody: It might be something that the people, you know, in Hollywood like who are in this industry already knew. So I wonder if he was like really out of line. I guess I’ll have to read the book. 


Damon Young: It’s funny because again, I do think this information, some of this context kind of does change things a bit in terms of how how I feel about the slap and how I felt about the slap and etc.. And I think that one of my criticisms of Chris Rock that night was that, you know, all the celebrities there to pick fun at to make jokes at, to, you know, to say a one off, you know, hacky line about you choose Jada Pinkett Smith, who might have been the 69th most famous person in that room. You know what I mean? 169th most famous person in that room that night. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean? So it’s like this is low hanging fruit. Why are you going there? 


Morgan Moody: Not really, though. Like in Black households, like Jada Pinkett is a big name. And to have a Black host, it’s like, okay, I see you. 


Damon Young: In Black households. Yeah, but we’re. This wasn’t the BTE awards. This was the Oscars.


Morgan Moody: Right. But it’s still like, you know, you see your people in the room, you’re probably going to shout them out. You’re probably going to say something. You know, I don’t know. It seems harmless. It seems harmless and more connotation. You know, I didn’t know she had alopecia, so, like, it seemed harmless, right? 


Damon Young: I didn’t know that either. And again, this is one of those things where if nothing happened, right. If there was no slap that happened after that, then no one would have thought about that joke ever again. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Because again, it was like a one G.I. Jane bit that like seven people got. 


Morgan Moody: Right. 


Damon Young: Right. [laughs] Cause, you know, I can imagine everyone under 30, like, wait G.I. Jane? Who? What? What is he talking about? You know, who’s watching the show? But because the slap happened, you do go back and you do like some sort of forensic. It’s almost like watching a Zapruder film. [laughter] You’re just like looking at every angle and every reaction and studying every word and every inflection. And so my feeling about that joke came from that post slap examination, right? And I’m like, okay, well, maybe he didn’t need to say that there are many other people in our audience who are much more famous than she is that you can go at right there. And so then it becomes, okay, so why. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: Why do you tell this joke? Why does she have your attention? Out of all these people that are there. And she’s not the only Black person there, too. 


Morgan Moody: Right? 


Damon Young: You know what I mean? And so knowing now that he asked her out on a date. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean that, again, puts things in a different context. And then that puts Will’s reaction, and it makes Will look worse. And I never thought Will looked great. 


Morgan Moody: I don’t think it was more than a date, but, like, you’re right, it’s a big reaction. Even like, so for the joke, it’s like that was still a big reaction. And even hearing now that he possibly just asked her out. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Morgan Moody: Considering what else we know about their marriage and how they have had, like, you know, Jada was dating her son’s friend for years. 


Damon Young: Mm hmm. 


Morgan Moody: You know, so we know that they have, like, outside things going on in their marriage. Is it that big of a deal to, like, ask your open partner on a date? 


Damon Young: And this goes back to the whole likability thing because, you know, the public, you know, at least in with Black people. Right. Will Smith has gotten you know, he’s the one who has come out like the quote unquote, “winner.” There are winners and losers of all of this. He’s the one that people are like, yeah, he should have slapped that nigga. I would have slapped that nigga. And I think a part of that, a big part of that is because people just like Will Smith more they like Chris Rock. And I’ve always felt that way, and I still feel that way. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah, he’s a big star and he’s very likable. 


Damon Young: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think people’s relationship with Will Smith is more. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Will Smith doesn’t have Good Hair. Right. He doesn’t have a history, you know. And by Good Hair, I mean Chris Rock’s documentary about Black women and hair, which, you know, if you watch it, it’s like, are you is this a documentary or are you like, picking fun? 


Morgan Moody: I haven’t watched it in so long that like. 


Damon Young: You have to watch it again. 


Morgan Moody: I remember thinking it was, you know, okay, I guess when I watched it, I do need to watch it again with fresh eyes. 


Damon Young: If you watch it again with like 2023 eyes [laughter] which is different then watching it 15, ten or 15 years ago whenever it dropped. And so again, you have all of this context where Will is beloved. Chris Rock is famous, but he’s not as beloved. And so the public, you know, at least the intra community take away from this, was that okay, Will Smith did what he needed to do. Smacked the shit out of Chris Rock. Chris Rock has been disrespecting Black women forever. This was just him getting his comeuppance finally for that. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: And that was never my take away. Like, my take away was this nigga thought he was telling, like, a random throwaway, hacky joke and wasn’t prepared for that sort of response. And Will obviously felt some sort of way about his manhood and needing to assert his manhood on stage in front of all those people. Obviously there was something else happening that night and something else happening before that night, right. That led to that thing because that’s not just the thing that you just do. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: That someone like Will Smith just does you know what I mean? And so does this new information change anything? Yeah. [laughs] Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And again it doesn’t change a lot. 


Morgan Moody: Right. 


Damon Young: To me but it just, it again, it just adds more context. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: And it doesn’t make Will Smith look better. And again, I’m not a person you know, we started off by saying that Jada Pinkett Smith is, you know, people feel a way about her. I don’t I don’t at all. I think she’s just doing what he’s doing. She’s trying to live life like everyone else. She has a, you know, a nontraditional relationship. She just happens to be very famous. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: In a nontraditional relationship. But I don’t think that she is any sort of villain, any sort of antagonist. I think this is two men who, you know, are having a fucking pissing contest. And, you know, we sided with the one that we love a bit more. 


Morgan Moody: I yeah, I guess my view on it is that, you know, you never know what people the motivations are for, you know, why they’re still in their marriages. Like we have our separate asides like outside of this, you know, talking about that and the severity, you know, that comes with like getting married. And there’s a lot at stake. You know, I’m sure if they were to get divorced and really, I think a lot of that has to do with like their image because really and truly like I think Will would probably be I think there would be a bad look on his image because we do view him as so wholesome. But then I just think too, that like we have them lumped in together, like as this family unit. And yeah, I’m sure that they’re together for a lot of other reasons besides like, well, you know, we have kids and. You know, I’m sure that their relationship works more on like a business level than romantic. 


Damon Young: And it’s funny, like you mentioned the wholesomeness. [laughs]


Morgan Moody: If you know what I mean. You nobody could see that. But.


Damon Young: Yeah [laughs] the wholesomeness is something that has been a part of Will Smith’s. The image that has been crafted has been created. And I think that that actually has hurt him as an actor, really, where, you know, he’s obviously, you know, a tremendous star, has starred in, you know, so many, you know, numerous blockbusters, made tons of money, whatever. But there’s an edginess that I feel like he has always been lacking. And there are certain roles that I feel like, you know, if and again, this maybe wasn’t his ambition to be someone who like a Denzel doing a Training Day or even Jamie Foxx doing something like Django, where you kill all those people. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know, and that’s a role that Will Smith reportedly turned out. 


Morgan Moody: Django. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 


Damon Young: Yeah. Any he turned down the Matrix you know. 


Morgan Moody: For Wild Wild West. 


Damon Young: For Wild Wild West. Yeah. 


Morgan Moody: And great soundtrack though. [laughs]


Damon Young: Great song. Not a great sound. Yeah. One, one song that we remember. 


Morgan Moody: Enrique Iglesias had a song that I danced to at many grade school dances that was on that. Anyways. 


Damon Young: Okay. 


Morgan Moody: Sorry. 


Damon Young: Anyway [laughs] Will Smith has this wholesome image and, you know, and I guess the marriage was a part of it, you know, the family man, whatever. And I feel like and again, I don’t know if these things are even connected. It might even be irresponsible to try to connect them. But I think that maybe, like, if he I think the lack of transparency. Right. In terms of like, okay, there are some people who have relationships, married, you know, people are in the public eye who are married but keep their marriages out of the public eye. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: So we don’t speculate. I mean, all we can do is speculate on them because they’re not giving us nothing. 


Morgan Moody: Right. 


Damon Young: And so for people, for people like Will and Jada, who are giving us stuff all the time. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean? I feel like it might have been better for him, not just relationship wise, but maybe even career wise too if he would have given us the actual truth. Like, you’re giving us all this shit. So why not just give us the real. If you’re already going to give all this to us, you know what I mean? Like, why are you going to give us a performance of a perfect a performance of perfection?


Morgan Moody: You’re, you’re, I feel like you’re. But what do you? What do you think he’s supposed to be giving us? 


Damon Young: I don’t know how that looks [laughs] but we hope. I don’t know how that looks. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: But we know now that the image that they have been projecting for for at least the last seven years is not completely true. You know what I mean? Because they’ve been separated for at least seven years. 


Morgan Moody: Living separate lives, but still saying it’s not untrue. You know what I mean? Like. And also, the thing is, is that there are the reality is like we talk about like the public image, like there’s just people in that industry that have a certain public image and that is very important to their brand. You know, Taylor Swift like being one of them. Like, you know, there’s people like that that just you don’t know a whole lot, but like, they’re doing what they can to kind of protect that. 


Damon Young: And I guess what I’m saying and I probably could have made a more elegant way of saying this is I think that the brand of Will Smith maybe could have been assisted by more transparency. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: Because this brand, this wholesome brand, whatever, I think doesn’t really do him any favors in his career now. When he’s not headlining the blockbusters. He’s not in Independence Day. And, you know, I am Legend and I, Robot and, you know, all the other movies that made $1,000,000,000,000 that he’s in there. So he’s trying to do the more prestige things. And we’re still looking at them as, Oh, this is wholesome Will Smith I don’t believe you. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: I just don’t I don’t believe, you know, part of that, you know, some people we could make arguments or whatever about a person’s acting chops. But I think that this 30 year long creation of this wholesomeness. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: Does affect what we see or how we feel about them when we see them on screen. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: Right. And again, I just think that it’s it’s one of those things that doesn’t do him any favors. And, you know, we just mentioned Django and how he was up for that role. And I’m trying to imagine Will Smith as Dj— And I could see him as Neo. It would be a different movie, but I could see that I can’t see as Django. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: I just can’t see him with that edge that Jamie Foxx has, you know what I mean? And how much of that is due to this performance that has gone on for four decades? 


Morgan Moody: Yeah, I think that behind the scenes they are delicately working to rebrand Will Smith, and I think that’s really a lot of the reason why, like we don’t probably hear too much or see too much from him, like he kind of lets Jada be, you know, the representative for, I guess what, you know, their marriage and what’s happening. But I guarantee you, Red Table Talk is probably going to make its triumphant comeback [laughs] with Will and they’ll probably talk about you know, like they’ll probably talk about that. I just think it’s also so shady how she, like dropped this news on the heels of the arrest of Tupac’s alleged murderer and also during Will’s birthday season. It is Libra season. 


Damon Young: Birthday season doesn’t fucking matter. That’s not a thing. 


Morgan Moody: I don’t. I don’t I don’t like Libras. So I don’t care. 


Damon Young: Birthday season is not a thing. It’s a birthday, not a birthday season. 


Morgan Moody: You get a whole season. You can get a whole season. If it’s Capricorn season, like you feel like you’re celebrating all the Capricorns. So it’s like if it’s Libra season, like it’s that’s your birthday time. I think it’s messed up. But I guess—


Damon Young: The thing is though, something like this, something like this interview, this book books are in the works years in advance. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: You know what I mean? It takes a long time to lead up for a book, long time to promote a book. And so this is. I’m ninety—


Morgan Moody: Whose idea was it, though? Whose idea was it, though? Not that takes time, but to come out with it and to do your press that.


Damon Young: The book is actually being released. Then the press was probably already scheduled. The press was all probably already, you know, decided before these. 


Morgan Moody: Damon, she could have said she could have said, I don’t want this book to come out around my husband’s birthday. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t think anything negative of Jada I have Virgo placements too, but that’s all I’m saying. [laughs] 


Damon Young: And a thing is I think you said this earlier too, is that they have been in cahoots. Like this is definitely like a team, you know what I mean? Who have, you know, taken great pains to promote a certain image, to release, you know, whatever they release to to show whatever they show. So there’s no doubt in my mind that Will—


Morgan Moody: It’s mutually beneficial. 


Damon Young: Yeah. There’s no doubt in my mind that Will didn’t just know about this book release that he has been there every step of the way and okayed it. Like you don’t do a thing like that if you’re people like this without—


Morgan Moody: Libras do Libras do [laughter] Libras do. 


Damon Young: Okay. 


Morgan Moody: Somebody will somebody will resonate with that. Libras do though they would do that sort of thing unless, you know, like, oh, I think you know, and then I mean, that’s I think that’s hurtful. I think that’s hurtful regardless of your your astrological sign. Like, I think that’s hurtful. But Libras are always like looking for peace. So that’s why I’m like, he probably did okay it, because he just wants peace. And I don’t know what to say about Jada. 


Damon Young: So to answer the question. To get back to the question that we were asked. [laughter] Yes. The slap, this new information does change things now. Again, it adds more context. Context matters, I like context. I like information. I like knowing things. 


Morgan Moody: Mm hmm. 


Damon Young: As a person who likes to know things. I love Jada Pinkett Smith. 


Morgan Moody: That’s whose team you’re on?


Damon Young: I’m on team information. That’s who’s team I’m on. I’m on team gossip I’m on team context. I’m on team information, everything else. 


Morgan Moody: That’s a cop out.


Damon Young: Doesn’t matter to me. I just. I just. I just want to. I just want to know things. I just love new information. I love knowing things. So. So, boom. That’s who’s team I’m on. How about you?


Morgan Moody: You know, I’m team Willow. I really like her music. 


Damon Young: Talk about cop out shut the fuck up—


Morgan Moody: I’m on the side of the kids. 


Damon Young: No. Stop it. Stop it! No, no, no, you can’t. [both speaking] You can’t say. I copped out, you can not call me a cop out and then choose Willow fucking Smith. No, no, you can’t do that.


Morgan Moody: If I’m choosing a better not cop out answer on a really toxic side. I do have to side with Jada. I don’t know anything about their marriage. And so, therefore, I just want to say that, like, what she’s done has been okay with them. And, God, I’m a girl’s girl. So.


Damon Young: I also want to give a quick shout out to Chris Rock’s chin [laughter] that has been the strongest entity throughout this whole thing, because again, he got smacked by an in shape 6’2″ 220 pound man who had a head start. And he just took it. He just ate it, didn’t fall, didn’t st— Barely stumbled. So Chris Rock, you know, could have had a career as a boxer, maybe. 


Morgan Moody: Doubt it.


Damon Young: With a job with a chin like that, you’ve got to be able to take a punch. Chris Rock definitely showed that he could take a punch. [laughter] So, yeah, information in Chris Rock’s chin. That’s whose team I’m on. 


Morgan Moody: Okay. 


Damon Young: And again, I’m not team Will—


Morgan Moody: Just nobody just nobody’s on Will’s side wow.


Damon Young: I’m not team Will. 


Morgan Moody: Right. Right.


Damon Young: I’m not. I’m not team Will in this. So if I were, I would be team Jada also. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. 


Damon Young: But I’m definitely not team Will. 


Morgan Moody: Yeah. Yeah. And you know why, because he’s a Libra. 


Damon Young: Morgan the producer. Thank you for coming through and—


Morgan Moody: Of course, thank you for having me. 


Damon Young: Sprinkling your astrological insights on this podcast. 


Morgan Moody: Someone has to spread the Libra slander. And this today I was nominated, so. 


Damon Young: Yeah. And I’ll let you go. I’ll let you go. Continue, your day. Go stare at the stars and, you know, come up with some more shit. [laughs]


Morgan Moody: Thank you. 


Damon Young: All right. [music plays] Again, just want to thank Michael Harriot, Morgan, the producer, for coming through. Great conversation, great guests, great topic. And also thank you all for again joining us. Again, you could have been anywhere else in the world, but you chose to be here with us at Stuck with Damon Young. Also Stuck with Damon Young is available wherever you get your podcasts. But if you’re on Spotify, particularly if you’re on the Spotify app, there’s lots of interactive questions, answers, polling. Knock yourself out. Have a lot of fun with that. Also, lastly, if you have any questions about anything whatsoever, hit me up at deardamon@crooked.com. All right y’all. See you next week. [music plays] Stuck with Damon Young is hosted by me, Damon Young. From Crooked Media, our executive producers are Kendra James and Madeleine Haeringer. Our producers are Ryan Wallerson and Morgan Moody. Mixing and mastering by Sara Gibble-Laska and the folks at Chapter Four. Theme music and score by Taka Yasuzawa. And special thanks to Charlotte Landes. And from Spotify our executive producers are Lauren Silverman, Neil Drumming and Matt Shilts. Special thanks to Lesley Gwam and Krystal Hawes-Dressler. [music plays]