What It Feels Like To Win

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode it’s me, De’Ara, and Myles talking about this last week in politics, y’all. It is wild. There’s not a lot of other news outside the Olympics uh that is worth talking about at this moment. [music break] This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.

Myles E. Johnson: My name is Myles E. Johnson and at @pharaohrapture on Instagram.

De’Ara Balenger: And it’s De’Ara Balenger. You can find me on Instagram at @dearabalenger.

DeRay Mckesson: Y’all it’s been a, this has been a week. I feel like every week is uh, sort of a wild week. Uh. The first thing I want to talk about is the Olympics. It has been really cool to see uh, the Olympics in Paris. It looks like a beautiful ceremony going on. My favorite was seeing Serena, I think the camera was off when she went under that little bridge. That was great. Um. And to just see um, there have been no track and field events since, since it started yet, but Simone Biles was incredible. Uh. The guy Frederick, the Black guy who’s on the gymnastics team, he’s been incredible. USA basketball, I can’t wait to see the the the reincarnation of the Dream Team play. And the South Sudan team, you know, I want America to win, but the South Sudan team has been on fire. So I’m excited to see them too. What about y’all? What are you watching at the Olympics? What do you think about the Olympics?

De’Ara Balenger: [sigh] I watched the whole four hour Olympic opening. I think it was very long. I mean, I did like, flip to other things and then flip back because I would flip to the Olympics and I’m like, oh, we’re just on country with that begin with the letter G. And I’m two hours in. Um. But it was. It was just it’s just a beautiful thing to watch. I obviously have a lot of notes, but the notes are less so sort of on like the French creative, which I thought was beautiful and very inclusive for the French. I think my notes were mostly for NBC, who had the likes of Peyton Manning as a prime sort of narrative voice. I have so many problems with that. I don’t even know where to begin. First of all, Peyton Manning, who, why? And then it was sort of it was Peyton Manning and Kelly Clarkson. And I love Kelly Clarkson. But does Kelly Clarkson play a sport? I’m very confused. I love her and I love her voice and she’s amazing. But it just was and then [laughter] we also had Snoop Dogg as a correspondent who really just like, did the Snoop Dogg dance the whole time and didn’t really say much of anything, high as a kite. It just was like, I think representationally like I felt like NBC was like, let’s give the people what they want, but they have no idea what we want. So it was like a hodgepodge of awkwardness. Thank God–

DeRay Mckesson: Kelly Clarkson confused me too. I’m not gonna lie. I looked at the screen like–

De’Ara Balenger: It was very–

DeRay Mckesson: What is Kelly talking about up here? At least Dwayne Wade made sense. He’s he’s commentating on somebody’s network–

De’Ara Balenger: See but he–

DeRay Mckesson: But at least he played basketball.

De’Ara Balenger: Yes.

DeRay Mckesson: So I like understood a little bit.

De’Ara Balenger: I didn’t see him.

DeRay Mckesson: But Kelly confused me and Snoop. And just like Leslie what’s the comedian, lesdogggg is her name her her her Instagram name?

De’Ara Balenger: Was she the one–

DeRay Mckesson: You–

De’Ara Balenger: –on the boat with the Olympians? The the woman on the boat, the sister on the boat with them was excellent. I need to find her name. I think she was an Olympian, but everyone else–

DeRay Mckesson: No no, you know the famous comedian who’s like, she got famous for commentating? Leslie Jones. Remember she used to make those Instagram videos?

De’Ara Balenger: Yes, yes–

DeRay Mckesson: About the Olympics.

Yes, yes.

DeRay Mckesson: So her commenting actually makes sense to me because like she used to make just like Snoop used to make those Instagram videos. But De’Ara, I’m with you–

De’Ara Balenger: Right.

DeRay Mckesson: Kelly Clarkson confused me. I was like, what is Kelly doing?

De’Ara Balenger: It was very interesting programming and I just was I feel like the French got American programming better than the Americans did. Like they had Gaga. They had you know what I it just was–

DeRay Mckesson: Celine Dion!

De’Ara Balenger: They did it. I I really I enjoyed all those parts. But as soon as folks started awkwardly trying to fill space and Peyton Manning like, come y’all. I feel like I was watching the debate again. That’s mean and too soon, but that’s what I felt like. [laughter]

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I was totally here for the um, unsportification of the Olympics [laugh] and just adding things because it kept me really entertained, because I’m only really present if there’s like a Black person to root for on the screen. But um, I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved Gaga’s performance. And I don’t know, I kind of I kind of liked the whole commercialization of and the hodgepodge pastiche pop thing that was like the Olympics. It was it was really entertaining. I wasn’t expecting to be entertained by it, but I was, and I know I’m going to say this again because I’m still really impressed by it. I am a little monster and Gaga’s performance was so good. It really–

De’Ara Balenger: It was.

Myles E. Johnson: –like, it I feel like we–

De’Ara Balenger: It was so cute. It was so cute.

Myles E. Johnson: And we and you know, we just don’t see a whole lot of performers. Obviously Beyonce is Beyonce, so we don’t see a whole lot of performers who just can really just handle what what what that kind of performance was and get it and tonally understand it, but still wink to your audience. So I felt like I was in ’96 again watching Lady Gaga. I was like, this is how you this is how you do it.

DeRay Mckesson: So I woke up to the Beyonce performance, like I had gone to sleep before it came on, and I thought it was AI.

Myles E. Johnson: Beyonce commercial.

DeRay Mckesson: I was, I mean but it was long.

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, it wasn’t a performance. Don’t give that lady no, that was not a–

De’Ara Balenger: I missed–

Myles E. Johnson: –performance Beyonce.

De’Ara Balenger: I missed it.

Myles E. Johnson: You are still on the clock Beyonce.

De’Ara Balenger: I missed it.

DeRay Mckesson: De’Ara, you missed it? She introduced the American team.

De’Ara Balenger: Oh, I was like that’s why she had all them clothes on on her Instagram.

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, she introduced the American team. But I literally thought it was AI I was like–

De’Ara Balenger: Like she spoke she like she spoke?

DeRay Mckesson: No it was a video, it was a recorded video. But like, all of the, all of the American athletes are in it in like beaded, diamond encrusted USA outfits. De’Ara, you got to see it. We got to find it.

De’Ara Balenger: Did [?] did [?] do all of it? With the outfits?

DeRay Mckesson: She did. Yeah yeah she um. Yeah she–

De’Ara Balenger: That’s amazing.

DeRay Mckesson: She posted.

De’Ara Balenger: Well Beyonce fine. Good job [?]. We’re your number ones over here. Excellent.

DeRay Mckesson: Wait, I’m going to show you. You need to see it.

Myles E. Johnson: If you don’t supersize this and stop being homophobic DeRay.

De’Ara Balenger: Look, you see did you see Myles. Did you see my eyes? [?]

Myles E. Johnson: Right, super size it. [?]

De’Ara Balenger: Oh, cute. Beyonce’s Beyonce’s like, you know what? I’m in the Hamptons, but good luck to y’all. [laughter]

DeRay Mckesson: So what’s cool about it De’Ara, is that she like shouts them out, she’s like and you know, my girl Sha’Carri. And you know, Simone is giving it to em. And my boy Noah, you know, like she does the introduction of the team.

De’Ara Balenger: I love that.

DeRay Mckesson: And it’s cool. And it’s like only Beyoncé could do it.

Myles E. Johnson: To your point, DeRay, I was looking at the video and thinking about how um, just AI-ed it looked. And how we’re probably going to have I don’t know, I think there needs to be like a little space that we get to where there’s like proof of human interaction because almost it looks so it used to be like the the the sign of um superstardom or like a superstar doing somethings really clear and digitized and al– like, you know, almost fake looking. And now that’s, that’s that’s one of the things that a media literate person looks for when you think about AI. So it’s it’s almost like, I wish it was a little bit more, I don’t know, VHS-ed and a little bit more grimy because I was looking at Bey and I was like with the with the super one big eye and looking really close and saying is that is that really my Beyonce? Dance around, do something off kilter. She already looks so just like impeccably perfect looking that that digitized esthetic doesn’t um help the AI accusations. But that’s funny that you um, said that because I was thinking the same thing DeRay.

DeRay Mckesson: I’m excited this week to see track and field. I’m excited to see basketball. Um. Shout out to the swimmers. I don’t know any of those swimmers, though. And yeah, I think basketball and track are the only two things. Oh, gym gymnastics. [?]

De’Ara Balenger: Gymnastics.

DeRay Mckesson: Gymnastics, gymnastics. What are y’all–

De’Ara Balenger: And volleyball for, volleyball.

DeRay Mckesson: Volleyball?

De’Ara Balenger: Oh. Yes.

DeRay Mckesson: [?] should we know–

De’Ara Balenger: DeRay I’m a like, I’m almost like a professional volleyball player. You don’t know that about me but.

DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know that. Should we know [?]–

De’Ara Balenger: People from the DC area know that.

DeRay Mckesson: What do we is volleyball is, don’t they have two person volleyball? And then like big team volleyball?

De’Ara Balenger: They have beach and then they have um yeah indoor.

DeRay Mckesson: What’s the beach is how, same number of people?

De’Ara Balenger: It’s two. It’s two on two.

DeRay Mckesson: Oh beach is the two thing. Okay.

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm.

DeRay Mckesson: Have we ever won?

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah, Misty May and Kerri Walsh were awesome. They’re like–

DeRay Mckesson: Come on.

De’Ara Balenger: –around my age. Mm hmm.

DeRay Mckesson: Misty.

Myles E. Johnson: Okay.

DeRay Mckesson: Come on Misty and Kerri.

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm.

DeRay Mckesson: Well shout out to the Olympics. Uh. In in political news, uh we are in the countdown to November. [sigh] What you got? You know, I have been fascinated by the JD Vance implosion. Um his, the the memes about him having sex with a couch. I even thought it was real because I, somebody posted, like a clip of a, um of a cutout of the book, and I was like, well, that’s a weird passage. All of it was. It seems to have been a rumor, but it is such a big thing on the internet that he has to contend with it. Uh. His comments about childless women we’ll play that. But his comments about you shouldn’t be in elected office if you don’t have children. And the childless cat women, Jennifer Aniston coming after him for that? Rightly so. Meghan McCain even tweeting like JD Vance, what is this? This doesn’t make sense. This is not who we are. Um. I’ve been fascinated by the JD Vance conversation. What about have you all seen it? What do you think?

Myles E. Johnson: They are eating JD Vance up. Um. Love to [laugh] love to, love to see it. It’s funny when I think about the Trump situation, um the Trump situation, aka the assassination attempt not to be not to be too nebulous about what I’m talking about, the Trump assassination attempt and now this viral uh lie. It’s it’s it’s it’s high time and interesting to see these different situations happen on the right where they’re really having to contend with their own energy and politics and language that they’ve put out. So it’s it’s it’s it’s interesting that JD Vance is is a part of this fake news Trump far right mechanism that is all about disinformation. And now his whole reputation and and and and campaign is being compromised because of fake news. And it feel if that feels poetic for me.

De’Ara Balenger: Myles I feel the same. I feel like as a proud card carrying member of the Democratic Party, that I’m often on a losing sports team. [laughter] And in these last weeks, I just feel like we’re going to the Super Bowl and we’re going to win. I feel like Trump picked JD Vance because he was basically dancing in the end zone. I got this, I am about to win this election big time, and I’m gonna pick whoever I want. And he picked this guy and it’s falling apart. It’s like, I guess this is how the other side feels often. So I’m just going to bask in it for as long as I can because we really are winning right now. Poll numbers are up for Kamala. White women out here raising $8 million, just them on they own. Didn’t ask them to. They got on a call, made it happen. I’m just like I’m feeling good. I’m feeling really good.

DeRay Mckesson: I love that. That is true De’Ara. It does feel like we’re finally on a winning. We’re not just praying that we make a goal. We’re like pray, pray, pray. Call your family. Pray. Get your grandmother. Pray. Now you’re like, oh, we could we could win. We could–

De’Ara Balenger: We–

DeRay Mckesson: We could make our own goals. [laugh]

De’Ara Balenger: I mean.

DeRay Mckesson: We got some good players.

De’Ara Balenger: It’s it’s fantastic.

DeRay Mckesson: It is um. What’s really interesting, too, is that the more J.D. Vance talks, the worse it gets. Like, that’s sort of the wilder thing you’re like, there’s nothing he says that is sane, you’re like, especially because he came out so hard against Trump before you’re like, you play all the clips. It is just–

Myles E. Johnson: Right. Right.

DeRay Mckesson: –a nightmare.

De’Ara Balenger: But it’s also DeRay, these aren’t people that have like talking points, like Trump has a crazy stump speech that he has different variations of, but it’s not like they have sort of like a comprehensive this is what–

DeRay Mckesson: Right.

De’Ara Balenger: –this is who we are, and this is what we’re doing. You know what I’m saying? Like, it really is so hodgepodge. So I mean, JD Vance is out there just sort of like winging it, and we’re getting the best of it.

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.

[AD BREAK]

DeRay Mckesson: But who who’s going to be uh Kamala’s VP pick?

De’Ara Balenger: [sigh] I mean–

Myles E. Johnson: I’m saying whoever y’all say because I have a wild ticket in my head. That’s what I remember putting it in well, I put it in the group chat earlier because it kind of scared me because I was so optimistic. And I have nothing against Pete Buttigieg. I mean, besides, like, anything I have against, like, the Democratic Party, like there’s nothing specific about him, but like, my inner far right conservative, I guess was like, no, that’s too diverse. It almost scared me. Like I was like, that’s just too much. Even if he was perfect. So that’s why I asked you all. But um, I’m listening to you all to see who who do you all think A., is going to be nominated? But who would be, like, the best person too like, even if that’s not necessarily the person who seems top of the ticket, but.

De’Ara Balenger: Well, I will say, one thing that is happening now is the Eric Holder is leading the vetting process, which I’ve found to be a win again, we are winning. The fact that Eric Holder is involved. I am obsessed with Eric Holder. I wish he could be the VP pick. Um. But good ol’ Eric Holder’s leading, leading the charge. And so speaking as a winner, like I’m just going to go with this and feel good about it. Like just feel like–

Myles E. Johnson: Soak it in.

De’Ara Balenger: I think it’s like how people who aren’t minorities, this is what they must [laughter] white people is this what y’all feel like like anything can happen?

DeRay Mckesson: Oh my God, De’Ara is hilarious.

De’Ara Balenger: That’s what I, that’s what I, that’s who I am these days.

Myles E. Johnson: Like a Folgers commercial.

De’Ara Balenger: Like just I’m waking up and everything’s for me. Okay. So with that, it would be Pete for me, 100%. I just find him to be so smart. And when I say smart, I mean messaging smart. He speaks in a way that’s digestible, accessible for people that um, is also like snarky at the right moments. And, you know, it’s a wild pick because he was a mayor, so he’s not necessarily giving you like the whole state access. But let me also just tell folks something just because you’re the governor of a place. Yeah, you won that. All the people coming with you again? Not necessarily. And so Josh Shapiro could be great. That I mean, the Kentucky guy. He’s not on my list at all. What’s his name? Beshear. Not even close. Um. So for me, it would be Buttigieg. I also obviously love Gretchen. Incredible. And like everything I just said for governors did not apply to Gretchen Whitmer. I feel like she is the bomb dot com. And she will bring Michigan. Um. But, yeah, I, I I really am feeling like we’re going to be imaginative with this one. I think Kamala is going to show us what kind of leader she is, and she’s going to it’s going to be a great pick, and she’s going to tell us why. That’s that’s the land I’m living in. DeRay? [laughter]

DeRay Mckesson: We need to name this episode uh what it feels like to win or something like that, because I’m here for it De’Ara. I like the optimism. What I also think, and this is like the bad part about capitalism, is that I do also think that she’s just a great story. I think one of the things that works for Trump is that he is a good story. It is funny sometimes it’s crazy, it’s bigoted, it’s homophobic, it’s racist, and it is an interest, people want to keep consuming it, even if you–

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

DeRay Mckesson: –hate it, you’re like, did you see that thing? That thing Trump said.

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

DeRay Mckesson: Like he said, da da da da da. And I think there’s a part of Kamala that actually is a great story but positive.

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

DeRay Mckesson: Like you are.

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

DeRay Mckesson: The look like, you know, when she gets the call from Obama and she has he’s on speaker phone and still she is, has the phone up to her ear. You’re like, that’s my father. Why why is the phone up to your ear on speakerphone Kamala? He on speakerphone. But there’s like, everything about her is like an interesting, the coconut thing. It’s interesting, you know, like. And I never thought I’d say this. The fact that they hid her for the last three years. You’re not even tired of Kamala because you didn’t see her.

De’Ara Balenger: Nope.

DeRay Mckesson: She wasn’t.

De’Ara Balenger: Nope.

DeRay Mckesson: You you like she couldn’t have, you know, if anything, they sent her out on the cooking shows. And, you know, I look at those clips now, she was cooking with people. I’m like, when did she do this? Or like the Keke interview?

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm.

DeRay Mckesson: Where at Keke’s, like, how do you do your hair? They had her on the culture tour for so long that you just weren’t even tired of her, you know, turned that turned out to work in our favor. Who knew? You know, so I’m. I’m in for the win. I’m interested in what her policies will be. You know people, somebody asked me to talk about um, her on the police, and I was looking up, like, you know, they did the things they said they were going to do. And, you know. There are 18,000 police departments in the country. The federal government controls less than 100 of them, which I think people confuse when they talk about policing. Um. But then you get Trump, right? So Sonya Massey gets killed and Trump says he wants to give full immunity to police officers. You’re like, he just don’t even care. It’s not reading the room.

De’Ara Balenger: At all.

DeRay Mckesson: He don’t care about the room. And that stuff will only continue to mobilize us. So, you know, I think that what works for our side is that Kamala can be the most magical candidate in the world for 100 days. We just need her to be great for 100 days and then be a good president. She don’t have to you know.

De’Ara Balenger: It’s also, it 100%. But I think that what she has taught us is that the people want something interesting. They don’t want a boring white guy. I think again, as winners. That season may be over. That season may be over because, think fast, who was Hillary Clinton’s VP pick?

DeRay Mckesson: Who? Oh, I don’t remember.

De’Ara Balenger: Uh uh.

DeRay Mckesson: Wait. Tim Kaine. Maybe.

De’Ara Balenger: It was. But–

DeRay Mckesson: But I couldn’t tell you what Tim Kaine looked like or where he worked from. I just remember his name.

De’Ara Balenger: Word up, word up. So picking–

DeRay Mckesson: He was a governor.

De’Ara Balenger: –a boring. He was a Senator, Virginia.

DeRay Mckesson: Oh. See, got it wrong.

De’Ara Balenger: That’s what I’m saying. Like picking the boring and lovely man. Lovely. He did an event for me with Pusha T. It was amazing. But other than that.

Myles E. Johnson: What was he doing with Pusha T?

De’Ara Balenger: Oh, I got them together because they’re it’s Virginia. He’s a Virginia guy.

Myles E. Johnson: Oh, got it. Okay.

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. It was actually really–

Myles E. Johnson: Okay.

De’Ara Balenger: It was really fun. And he put I–

Myles E. Johnson: Okay.

De’Ara Balenger: –we put like cool sunglasses on him. What a mess.

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. [banter]

De’Ara Balenger: But anyway. But that’s what I’m saying. You got to do all that as opposed to just picking somebody that’s got, you know.

DeRay Mckesson: My 100 day comment was actually not even a knock at her, but a reminder that, like, you know, the honeymoon phase disappears for everybody and we can stay in the honeymoon phase for 100 days. Do you know what I mean?

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

DeRay Mckesson: But at a point, people will want they’ll try and find some crazy angle to attack Kamala. Like it’s just sort of the way the media works. But 100 days, we got this. I’m I’m pumped about it. You know, I was um it does remind me, though, that we need to talk to people about the issues. So I’m interested in what you all think about the issues, because I was talking to a really close friend of mine yesterday, and he was like, some of his Dominican friends are still voting for Trump because of immigration. And I’m like, what? Yeah know like I’m I’m like confused by it and I–

Myles E. Johnson: Voting for Trump–

DeRay Mckesson: –think it to my, well because they because the the critique was that it feels like there are no rules. Like, anybody can do whatever they want. People are coming over here and taking advantage of sort of the welfare state. And he was trying to convince his barber and his bar– he was sort of fighting his barber. And then the issue was immigration. I was like, this is really interesting. But it made me think too about like, I don’t know if I could repeat our sides talking points about immigration. I just know that the other side’s is racist and bigoted, and whatever we’re presenting certainly is not that. Um. So I am interested in the way the policy stuff rolls out in the next 100 days.

De’Ara Balenger: I agree, DeRay. And and you know who needs to do a coalitions call? Dominicans. That’s who. I will help y’all get the unlimited zoom. I will do whatever I can to help my Latino, Latina, Latinx folks do this call because it is conversations like this where I’m like, what is the point of having this imagination and us getting to a place and I know we still have a long way to go, but we are on the road to freedom. We got to make sure that folks in this diaspora understand what we’re trying to do. So Dominicans, find me on Instagram and I will help. But enough, enough, enough.

DeRay Mckesson: Now, what do you think comes next? So we’ve seen the ads from the Kamala team. We’ve seen the press releases. It is interesting that Trump seemingly is refusing to debate Kamala. Um. I’ll read the last statement that he put out if you have not seen it. Uh. But he said, and this was on the 25th, he said, given the continued political chaos surrounding crooked Joe Biden and the Democratic Party, general general election debate details cannot be finalized until Democrats formally decide on their nominee. There’s a strong sense by many in the Democratic Party, namely Barack Hussein Obama, that Kamala Harris is a Marxist fraud who cannot beat President Trump, and they are still holding out for someone, quote, “better.” Therefore, it would be inappropriate to schedule things with Harris because Democrats very well could still change their minds. This is from Stephen Chung, the Trump campaign communications director. What do you all make of this? Do you think that he’ll debate her in the end? Do you think he’ll keep punting? You know, before that he said he wouldn’t uh debate Kamala because uh Obama had not endorsed her. Then the Obama endorsement comes out. And then we get this statement. What do y’all think about this?

Myles E. Johnson: Mark marxist fraud? [laughter] There there are two images of this woman in people’s heads. And I’m like [laugh] what about Kamala has given you Marxist fraud? And like like I don’t it’s it’s so funny them trying to twist themselves in order to make her seem like somebody who is not center left at, you know, at best, and make her seem like she is this like far leftist. It’s, it’s it’s it’s it’s actually ridiculous. So they’re they’re scrambling. I don’t know the the exact rules on this, but I think it would be really cool if Kamala still did something during that debate slot or during that time. I think that bec– because Trump seems to be scared of of actually debating her, engaging her. I think it’ll be cool if she just like had a moment, had an hour just to go and talk about, like you were saying about policy and just be uninterrupted and and talk about it and say, like, you know, my opponent did not want to talk to you all but I didn’t want to skip a moment to talk to the American people and just have her be able to talk about policies and stuff, because, like DeRay said, I do think that this kind of initial relief and excitement is just bound to wear off. And I think that that will be something to kind of A., ground us, but also get us more excited. And um, the last thing I said, like I think there’s at my in my pop culture uh just culture brain. I see Kamala and Michelle Obama on stage together. I hope they save that for like the 90th day. [laugh] I hope they save. I hope I hope they just put that in their pocket and don’t give it give it to us until they’re like, okay, we kind of drying up. Nobody’s excited. Because that image, just when I see it in my head, I’m like, oh, that is just, you know how I feel about electoral politics in in everything. And I’m not necessarily fascinated with celebrity or, excuse me, politicians as celebrity. But the Kool-Aid has been drank with me. I’m excited about her in a way that, you know, just because I want to see her in the office, I that symbolic persuasion has entered my head and I and yeah, I just, I don’t know, I just. I just think there’s there’s no wrong turn for her unless she literally just makes a horribly wrong turn on on on her own.

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. You know Donald Trump, it’s the same tactics. It’s fear mongering. It’s trying to make an enemy. But guess what Donald Trump? It’s hard to make an enemy out of somebody that’s pretty, okay? And somebody that smiles.

DeRay Mckesson: [laugh] De’Ara.

De’Ara Balenger: That’s hard it’s hard to make an enemy out of that. It just is here in America. It’s also hard to make an enemy out of somebody that went to Howard University. So Donald Trump, let’s see you try to make this woman into an enemy. It’s just not it’s not going to happen. And it’s particularly not going to happen with like the fraud Marxist comment, like you’re going to have to dumb that down for your folks a whole heck of a lot more. Okay, so I don’t know. It just it’s it’s ridiculous. And it’s the same type of like fear mongering tactics and just like, extreme, you know, sort of this whole notion that someone has this extreme ideology that they don’t, to Myles’ point, when somebody’s just kind of like center left. Um. Yeah, but yeah, I don’t see this. I don’t see these things, these tactics working on her. So he’s going to have to go back into his like evil marketing boardroom and try to figure out some other things.

DeRay Mckesson: Now, there is one topic that I think we must talk about is that when Kamala ran or ran originally, there was this comment or this critique of her that was very potent, and it was that Kamala is a cop. And the idea that Kamala was a cop took a lot of air time. It framed that was the central critique of Kamala during that moment. Emily Bazelon uh wrote that I think it was Emily Bazelon, wrote that piece in the, I think it was the Times that that was the linchpin for a lot of people. I remember even talking to her campaign about it. Um. Because, as you know, Kamala was a career prosecutor. Um. And it seems like that critique is not taking hold today. The idea that Kamala is a cop. I want to know what you think about that. And then there are a set of people who feel like there should have been a contested primary. I was talking to a close friend yesterday who who supports Kamala and felt like there should have been a contested primary. I was like, you know, I was telling him the delegates could choose. It wasn’t, you know, the delegates have not formally chosen nominees that they could have–

De’Ara Balenger: DeRay.

Myles E. Johnson: –chosen somebody else.

De’Ara Balenger: You know what? Maybe–

DeRay Mckesson: Well you tell me.

De’Ara Balenger: –it’s just your your friends that are the issue. Let’s have your friends [laughter] everyone you said you just talked to.

DeRay Mckesson: I do.

De’Ara Balenger: Have have them over to my place and let’s hash some things out.

DeRay Mckesson: No my friends are listening to the–

De’Ara Balenger: Because–

DeRay Mckesson: –podcast too De’Ara. So tell them, they’re at your place now.

De’Ara Balenger: Actually you all. We are–

DeRay Mckesson: So let’s–

De’Ara Balenger: Let’s let’s in the–

DeRay Mckesson: –So. Kamala is–

De’Ara Balenger: –next couple weeks.

DeRay Mckesson: –a cop.

De’Ara Balenger: Y’all. [indistinct banter]

DeRay Mckesson: And–

De’Ara Balenger: A whole– [indistinct banter]

DeRay Mckesson: Well, respond to it.

De’Ara Balenger: — and immigration.

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. Kamala is a cop.

De’Ara Balenger: Okay.

DeRay Mckesson: And no open primary. What you got?

De’Ara Balenger: My issue actually, not to deflect, but I am also a politician. I I actually have more issue with the sort of Donald Trump’s a felon, Kamala is a cop prosecutor. And who do you want more, a prosecutor or a felon? And in that my thinking really has been um, I hadn’t been thinking about the felon piece, but then yeah I follow Florida Rights Restoration Commission, as I’m sure you do too DeRay. And we are obsessed with their work, and there’s just been a whole movement to get us out of this language around felon and what that means and all sort of all of you know, the fear mongering that goes into narratives around felons, when really it’s just an individual that made a mistake and served their time and now is back with us in community. And and in many cases leading um and greatly contributing to community. So I think it’s I think I have most issue with it when it’s sort of the contrast of cop versus felon, which I think is a conversation that is worth us having. Um. Because that really is sort of getting at folks’ humanity. [?] about Donald Trump, I don’t care. But what I’m talking about, folks in our family and folks that we’re in community with. The cop conversation on Kamala, like, yeah, I mean, we can share some talking points on that or just some facts on that, and y’all need to get over it. We got 100 days. Let’s let’s get to the other side and and and hold this administration hold what will be the Harris administration u you know. Hold the feet to the fire on on sort of criminal legal system reform, which I feel like to go on another tangent is. You know, it hasn’t been. It hasn’t been the conversation, the national conversation for a while now. I felt like it was very center. And now it’s sort of been dwindling.

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming.

[AD BREAK]

Myles E. Johnson: I think everybody is so let’s not get a Trump presidency, that what I’ve been seeing and you all can tell me if you’ve seen something different. I’ve seen that there have been even um, maybe some kind of like um uh, like abolitionist abolitionist like ideas or like leftist ideas that have been totally like squashed like, shut up. We are voting for this woman. Don’t say anything. Um. Don’t don’t don’t shh don’t ruin it. Be quiet. And I do think that’s going to come back and bite people, because I do think that the more again, I think the excitement of the moment is really is really is it’s fueling it. And I think once people’s excitement is is not done, that’s not going to be enough to combat the certain types of narratives around like around her. Like soulfully. And when you do look at the stats, when you do hear, um like hear everything about her history, it is pretty compelling. It it is, it does it does show that okay, well, let’s not have the media turn people into these, like very flat comic book type characters. Let’s really look at like the data. But it’s just interesting to see that I just still haven’t seen people. A whole lot of people just engage with people who or engage with those counter-narratives with with something that’s um with the facts, you know, it’s always just like shut up. I’m like, well if you just say what she did and didn’t do, not only could you say shut up, but you could also help make it so this is not something that we’re hiding it’s something that has been misconstrued by the media yet and you know that to me is like it felt feels weird that I have that I haven’t seen um, more more of that–

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.

Myles E. Johnson: –pushback from people who are pro.

De’Ara Balenger: I agree, this is why this is what I just did Myles, I went to ChatGPT and I said, hey, can you give me a book summary on Kamala Harris’s book Smart on Crime? And here’s what it says. [laughter]

DeRay Mckesson: Not De’Ara. Did Kamala call you this morning?

De’Ara Balenger: Here’s what it says. She– Harris Harris Harris argues for moving beyond the traditional tough on crime. Advocating for strategies that are smart, like innovative programs that um, that target uh truancy to prevent children from dropping out of school and becoming involved in criminal activities. Community involvement. The book stresses the need for community based solutions and the importance of building trust between law enforcement and in communities. Addressing myths, Harris seeks to debunk myths about criminal justice, such as the notion that poor communities are inherently hostile toward the police. Victim support, the book also discusses the significance of supporting victims of crime, ensuring they have necessary resources and protection to rebuild their lives. And when a prosecutor wants to focus on victim support, that means that prosecutor is a good one, because the prosecutors that I know spend the majority of their time on victim support and making sure victims get into the right social programs. So not that I’m tooting’s horn maybe Kamala Harris’s. But–

DeRay Mckesson: [laugh] Maybe.

De’Ara Balenger: This is what I found. This is what I found when I just did a three second bada bing, bada boom. So, Myles, I agree. I don’t want anyone, whoever is curious about anything [clap gotta explore it. Let’s bring it up. Let’s talk about it. But what we can’t do because this is when this is when things go left. If you are waiting on this campaign to address your individual need in the modality that most speaks to who you are. It ain’t going to happen. Because campaigns, unfortunately, have been built the same since 1966 pickup sticks. Okay, the same organizing that was happening in 2008 with Obama. There’s sort of an updated version happening now, but we have to realize that these campaigns. A campaign is but an appendage of our political system, which already moves at a snail’s pace. So all I’m saying is, if we want to find these answers, we are going to have to get them ourselves. And best that we do that. Because, Myles, I’d rather have you articulating something than anybody that is working on a communications team for a campaign.

Myles E. Johnson: I do, I do. If I’m being honest, I do. I hear everything that you said and respect it and love it. I do find. I find that different, difficult just to, to settle into my just for it to settle into my brain. Because from what I’ve noticed is that when a Democratic nominee comes up and is is putting their hat into become president. That, to me, usually seems like the most opportune time to uh really get specific and to your point about, well, everything that was happening around um mass incarceration. And of course, there was a huge um, there was a huge media push with Ava DuVernay’s documentary that kind of put it in the into the the common person’s um consciousness as well. Um. I still I still feel like that felt like such a center topic because we made it such a center topic. I felt like we may I felt like we we we we pushed for those things.

De’Ara Balenger: We made it. Yes.

Myles E. Johnson: But I feel like there’s–

De’Ara Balenger: Yes.

Myles E. Johnson: But I feel like there’s such a fear. So I but I guess the thing that I’m seeing is that people who are maybe further left, people who are not as um uh I’m trying not to use like any like bad language around anybody and how they’re interacting with them. But, I see this kind of like silencing of certain types of people who have maybe uh, these, these very specific terms that I’m like, let those people speak. Let them, let them say something loud, let it grow steam because, you know, have it be told when um, when all those super predator comments came out and stuff like that, Hillary never stopped talking about that. She always kept on being asked about that and talked about that and had to uh, show she, she had to prove that she was going to be different and stuff. And, you know, maybe that’s not the best example because she lost, she lost. But I did. But I do see a pattern of if you make it a big deal, they’ll have to address it. And then you have something to hold them accountable for. But it feels like–

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.

Myles E. Johnson: They’re making it a big deal part, feels like everybody’s like hands off until we win.

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.

Myles E. Johnson: But when we win, it feels like sometimes it could be just too late because they’re already in office. So the problem is a prioritization is not there.

De’Ara Balenger: Myles, I have a question. I have a question for you because I am with you 100%. And I think sometimes. When when the question is asked or when the button is pushed. In an Amanda Seales type of way. [laughter] I’m like. Huh? What’s the point? What are you doing? What’s this about? Sort of the through line or the nuance for me is, speak your truth, everybody. But let it be the truth of the people. Let it have some action accompany it. Let it let it release. Let it speak to a sort of trail that is like deep curiosity because there’s a feeling that something is really wrong. Explore what the sort of actionable steps can be, and then let’s go at it. But I think I get a little tense when it’s just like people saying stuff.

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, and I, I will say that [?] [laughter] [banter] and this is true of–

Myles E. Johnson: You done said the A-word child. [laughter] I’m over here like, now hold on. I didn’t say anything about Miss Amanda Seales. I didn’t say not a word [indistinct from DeRay] about Miss Amanda Seales. I was minding my own business. [indistinct from DeRay] I’m I was minding my business. Before–

De’Ara Balenger: Y’all can tweet at me. Because I don’t even know how to get on there. So you can tweet at me–

Myles E. Johnson: What I will–

De’Ara Balenger: –all day long.

Myles E. Johnson: What I’ll say a little briefly just to just to respond to that is that again, this is how come this whole situation as far as presidency and politics and the government is warped because it’s steeped inside of celebrity culture and with social media and and with social media tactics.

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.

Myles E. Johnson: And at the end–

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

Myles E. Johnson: –of the day, Amanda Seales.

De’Ara Balenger: Yup.

Myles E. Johnson: I do like her. I am a fan of my brother and me and all other stuff that she has done, but she is an entertainer who also because of the economics of, of of stardom today, also has to be an influencer, which means she also has to feed a algorithm, which means she also has to perform a certain type of way and she gets incentivized for doing those things. So once those maybe leftist pushes are only solely coming from Amanda Seales and her warped like in her own warped view, which we all have, then it becomes Amanda Seales versus versus um the uh Kamala. And I’m like, no, it should be people who have more left of center or even further left concerns versus Kamala. There shouldn’t be not one single person who is saying, I’m not convinced by this, but it is because of the cult of personality celebrity culture that we all exist in, which is which is which is really sad too when I look at everything. [pause] I’m sorry [?]–

DeRay Mckesson: That was that was very [?] yeah.

De’Ara Balenger: [?].

Myles E. Johnson: I’m glad we virtual.

De’Ara Balenger: See no you no but that was we really pulled all that together.

DeRay Mckesson: I will say, just as a just a point of clarification, a thing and the press has called me because there are a lot of anniversaries of killings coming up. And as you all saw, the death of Sonya Massey, if you saw the video or heard about the video. It was truly appalling, is a reporter called me yesterday and said DeRay, can Kamala do something to prevent this? Can the George Floyd act prevent it? Da da da. And again, I’m a broken record on this. 18,000 police department’s, less than 100 controlled by the president and none in your community, no local police department, no state agency, no sheriff’s department is controlled by the federal government. It’s border patrol is the biggest agency controlled by them. Then you get ICE, the DEA, ATF, but it’s not your local police departments. It’s just not. The second thing is that the in on a given day in the United States there are 2.3 million people incarcerated, and uh, less than 300,000 of them are incarcerated in the federal system. You could let every single person out of federal custody, and it will not change the mass part of mass incarceration. That’s just the way the numbers are. So when we think about, like, the single biggest lever for the end of mass incarceration and the end of police violence, it really is your city and state. That’s just what it is. It’s your mayor, your governor. It’s those people. And I say that not to take the heat off the president. I do say that as to remind you that y’all are, like, give the heat to everybody, like, let’s make sure that we, like, do something with the prison system at the federal level. But the majority of people are incarcerated at the state level. It’s just true. These are your local police departments and your governors. Now, what we should put pressure on the federal government is that they fund everything. So when I think about the George Floyd Act, there’s some pieces in it that are great. And even when they passed the restriction on neck restraints, we did that. It’s in the bill. I’m very proud of that. And it will only automatically apply to the less than 100 departments that the federal government manages. The other 18,000 of them will be incentivized to pass rules that mimic the federal law, but they will not be required to, because that’s the way federalism works. So it’s like we–

Myles E. Johnson: Right.

DeRay Mckesson: –can condition money. We should do that. We should do a lot of things with the money. And force states to do things in the same way that we got seatbelts. We didn’t get seatbelts because people cared about car safety. We got seatbelts because the federal government incentivized uh passing laws around driving. So that is a point of clarification because people have asked, and when I look up, you know, their platforms around criminal justice and policing, the Biden administration had a good one. They’ve done a lot of those things that they couldn’t get done in the George Floyd act. They did by executive order. Now what they do need to do and I said this somewhere else oh on the Black gay men call the other day is the clemency problem is a problem. Biden ain’t done nothing on clemency. So I’m interested to see what Kamala will do on that issue. Clemency is either people getting out early or shortening sentences that the federal that the president can do, and Biden has been pretty slow on it. Kamala, during the the election said that she um, she believed in an independent process. So I’m excited for that. And uh, she did call for the DOJ to have increased funding to be able to investigate police departments. Remember, 18,000 police departments, the highest number of investigations in a given year historically was the Obama administration. And it was, Myles, do you know this? How many they investigated? Like every year under Obama. Like the highest number, 18,000 police departments, what’s your guess?

Myles E. Johnson: I’m so bad at stuff like this. Please tell me the number, though.

DeRay Mckesson: No, but you gotta guess.

Myles E. Johnson: No, I hate these games.

DeRay Mckesson: Ugh. Okay, so it was three, so–

Myles E. Johnson: Three!

DeRay Mckesson: They would only investigate–

Myles E. Johnson: Or 3000?

DeRay Mckesson: No, three. So when we think–

Myles E. Johnson: Oh.

DeRay Mckesson: –about the federal government’s sort of power to hold police departments accountable, the office that does it is like the team of lawyers is so small and so underfunded that they can’t even do more police departments in a given year if they wanted to. So she did commit to increasing that when she ran for president the first time. I’m interested to see that again in the conversation. But that’s what I mean about the money. That’s a money thing. So when we think about and the George Floyd Act does expand the DOJ’s power to investigate and subpoena police departments, that is actually a good thing. Last thing I’ll say on this soap box is remember that that is a new power. The federal government’s role in investigating police departments comes immediately following the beating of Rodney King. That is a new power. It was most exercised under Obama, not exercised at all under President Trump and then re-exercised under this administration [?].

De’Ara Balenger: I mean DeRay, what do you I mean, the interesting thing in the way we don’t talk about Kamala’s background as a prosecutor is the fact that there will actually be somebody leading this country that has deep experience working in the criminal legal system, you know what I’m saying? So even everything [indistinct from DeRay] you’re saying won’t need to be explained to Kamala.

DeRay Mckesson: I agree with you De’Ara. She knows it. Now what she will not say out I’ve not seen her publicly talk about police accountability. Now that those that phrase. The George Floyd act has some good things in it that sort of get to that. But I’ve not heard her talk about it. And what is true is that the president outside of the DOJ cannot hold a local police department accountable. They just like that is the mechanism. Um. But I have not heard her talk about that. Even the statement about Sonya Massey was a was a call to pass the George Floyd and Policing Act.

De’Ara Balenger: Right.

DeRay Mckesson: Um. [?]–

De’Ara Balenger: And she did she I saw that she she–

DeRay Mckesson: She called the family.

De’Ara Balenger: –called the family.

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah.

De’Ara Balenger: Um. Which is great in the basics. I’m not trying to pat anybody on the back for that. Um. But yeah, I think I think that’s an interesting way to talk about this. And I think it’s also also sort of brings up the relationship between prosecutors and law enforcement and a lot of assumptions we even make about that. And I would be interested, like, if we could get some data, if there was an organization that worked deeply on data when it came to the criminal legal system.

DeRay Mckesson: What you got?

De’Ara Balenger: [?] DeRay.

DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know, I heard there’s some good ones out there.

De’Ara Balenger: Is is is prosecute. If we could get Black prosecutors to anonymously, obviously talk about their relationships with law enforcement. And if that is different from white prosecutors, because I know what my relationship was for the short time I was a prosecutor. It was not good with the Popo’s. So I’d be very curious to see what the differences are there.

Myles E. Johnson: I think so much of it can be about uh vanity and can be about just shifting the culture around our conversations, which I don’t say vanity as a pejorative. I just think that [pause] when we do think about Sonya Massey and like and her and her murder, because we’ve seen this so much as a society, there does feel like because the culture felt different underneath Trump, it felt like the country felt different and me–

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.

Myles E. Johnson: –going to different places.

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.

Myles E. Johnson: Felt different underneath Trump and and the and the country also felt different underneath um Obama and I think that the president really shifts how the nation feels in significant ways. And I think now when we look at um, this, this, this women’s murder, I think that we just got to a space or at least I’ve gotten to a space. And I don’t think that I’m like, especially, like, brilliant. I think that I’m just at a space where I’m like, when are we going to say that there are people who enter the police force in order to wreak havoc on Black people and communities? When do we say that it’s not just about a set of policies and a set of um, and a set of set of rules, it’s about the type of people who we are allowing to be police officers also, like, just watching that video, listening to that video, I couldn’t even watch it. But like hearing what he was saying, I’m like, oh, this person entered the police [?] the police force for a moment like this. There is hatred in that. And I think, again, [laugh] I know that maybe how other people want to say it and it seems like, uh Miss Seales is the only person people who put the project, project this on, of course. Uh. Kamala is just saying this president is uh or excuse me, this uh, country is racist, is not practical, but there needs to be some type of acknowledgment that there is something awry and that she’s going to do something about it, and it can’t and it, and I and I do think that people specifically and I and I do a lot think a lot of Black people, specifically Black people who are maybe further left really are wanting people to be more their politicians to be more honest about these situations, in my opinion. And wanting to have a more complicated answer to these type of things because they do change. Having somebody like Kamala in office who’s saying there’s something systemic going on that, that, that, that we have to address as a, as a, as a nation, as a family, like I do think that that changes how people feel about entering the police force even. Like I’m, I’m, I’m doing a whole lot of gymnastics intellectually, but it to me doesn’t feel like a hard, a hard jump. This is my little Olympic reference, but this doesn’t feel like a hard jump to go from, oh, Trump’s in office. Oh, Trump is coming back again. JD Vance is saying this stuff. Let me enter the police force. Let me enter these different professions so I can make legitimate my bigotry. That’s what seems like it’s happening time and time again when we see these murders. So I do hope that there’s some type of addressing of that.

DeRay Mckesson: To that I’ll say, and I think you nailed it, is that even if the president can’t control the local police departments, even if most people are incarcerated at the local and state level, what is true is that there is one office in the country that controls the public conversation, or manages the public conversation from the biggest bully pulpit we have, and that is the president. And I think that’s fair. And that like setting the tone. And what is also true is that, you know, there’s a small number of police departments in cities that have more than 100,000 residents. The majority of police departments are in smaller places. And what we find at the state level and in a lot of cities is that they just copy federal legislation. They do. So when the when the federal government passes these things, the hope is that cities and states will have the political cover to then mimic it at the state level and at the city level. And that is actually the good news. Even if the legislation won’t directly change the local police departments, the idea is that it’ll trickle down, boom. Well, we will be back next week um to talk about this election. And we are on the countdown. We are, is it 100 days, delegate De’Ara?

De’Ara Balenger: Starting, is it Sunday? Yesterday, Sunday was 100 days. Sunday was yesterday.

Myles E. Johnson: Okay.

DeRay Mckesson: Do you have any words for us as a delegate, as a voting delegate at the DNC? De’Ara, how does it feel? Did you get a did you get a badge? Did you get a, you know, what you got?

De’Ara Balenger: Well I’m on the credentials committee, so I’m honored and don’t tell anybody. But you know, I’m just trying to get our folks all the credentials they can get, okay? Because we got to be on that floor with our girl. Again, my attitude is anything can happen. I’m going to just be a just radically imaginative with my Black brain. I got a little Mexican mixed in it. And I’m just going to I’m just going to be free old me. And I hope everyone does the same. Don’t limit yourselves to everything that we have continually been limited by in this country.

DeRay Mckesson: Another exciting Vote Save America update we’ve now had over 27,000 people sign up for Vote Save America’s 2024 volunteer program, organize or else. Including over 10,000 people since Kamala Harris’s presidential announcement. And those folks have already reached out to over one million voters. This is a historic moment in U.S. politics and we have the power to sway this election. But we need your help to have a fighting chance in November. Go to www.VoteSaveAmerica.com/2024 and click sign up to get started. This message has been paid for by Vote Save America. You can learn more at VoteSaveAmerica.com and this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. [music break] Well that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @crookedmedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger and Myles E. Johnson.

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