In This Episode
Trump approval rate tanks among Latino voters, Met Gala 2025 theme met with mixed emotions, and universal anti-venom develops from man with 200 snake bites.
News
New polls of Latino voters have warnings for Trump — and Democrats
Met Gala makes history with exclusive focus on Black men’s fashion
Universal Anti-venom May Grow Out of Man Who Let Snakes Bite Him 200 Times
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles and Sharhonda, talking about the news with regard to race, justice, and equity that you might not have heard last week or news that you did hear but didn’t hear from this perspective. Make sure you join our community on Instagram at Pod Save The People, and here we go. [music break] We are approaching the first Monday in May, which is the Met Gala Monday and we are excited to be back. This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @Myles_E_Johnson on Instagram. Shit, that is long.
Sharhonda Bossier: And I’m Sharonda Bossier, BossierS on Spill.
DeRay Mckesson: We’ll be talking about the Met Gala a little later, but let’s talk let’s start with the wild American presidency because it just, you know, I still, I’m a broken record, but I wake up and I’m like, oh, it’ll end and then it doesn’t. So I don’t know if you saw the interview that he did on network television where he was asked about, do you think that citizens and non-citizens deserve due process? And he said, I don’t know.
Sharhonda Bossier: I’m not a lawyer. [laughing]
DeRay Mckesson: And you’re like, bro, you’re the president of the United States, due process is in the constitution. What do you mean, I don’t know?
[clip of Kristen Welker] Your Secretary of State says everyone who’s here, citizens and non-citizens, deserve due process. Do you agree, Mr. President?
[clip of President Donald Trump] I don’t know. I’m not I’m not a lawyer. I don’t know.
[clip of Kristen Welker] Well, the Fifth Amendment says as much.
[clip of President Donald Trump] I don’t know it seems, it seems it might say that, but if you’re talking about that, then we’d have to have a million or two million or three million trials. We have thousands of people that are some murderers and some drug dealers and some of the worst people on earth.
[clip of Kristen Welker] But it–
[clip of President Donald Trump] Some of the worse, most dangerous people on Earth. And I was elected to get them the hell out of here and the courts are holding me from doing it.
[clip of Kristen Welker] But even given those numbers that you’re talking about don’t you need to uphold the constitution of the United States as precedent.
[clip of President Donald Trump] I don’t know uh I have to respond by saying again I have brilliant lawyers that work for me and they are going to obviously follow what the supreme court said what you said is not what I heard the supreme court said they have a different interpretation.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think you’re right. I feel like we talked about this ad nauseam and every week it just gets wilder and wilder and wilder. Um. And it’s like, it’s both that he positions himself as the ultimate decider and interpreter of the law while also pretending to be ignorant of it. And it’s just so fascinating to me to watch him be able to do both things and have people be like, now hold on, bro, at the very least, you gonna have to pick one, you know? So yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: He gets on my nerves so bad. Oh my gosh, I cannot stand Trump. Um. I think, again, the thing that always goes into my head during these conversations is the thirst for it, is the appetite for what he’s seeing that even when I’ll see something that really feels horrific or really feels unsettling happen, or he says something especially stupid, that I also see um people cheering about it and saying that they like that going on. I remember I don’t know if we’re gonna end up talking about PBS I don’t know everything that’s on the on the docket. There’s so much mess, but you know, I love me some PBS. Um. But then you look into PBS’s own commentary and you have people saying, you know I love Antiques Roadshow, but girl, get out my pocket. Like, you know, there’s a thirst and appetite for what we’re seeing, and there’s a thirst and appetite for a president who doesn’t know due process, who is not an institutionalist, even though um through the architecture of fascism, they’re being the biggest institutionalists we’ve probably ever seen, but you know. It’s–
DeRay Mckesson: I’m interested in this, Myles, is there, do you think there’s an appetite for it? I think about this because I, I’m struck at how well, um, Trump gets us all distracted by ridiculous things, but you never, you can’t tell if it’s actually ridiculous or if he’s going to do it, which is part of the strategy. Cause he’ll say something wild and then you’re like, oh, well, he, that sounded crazy, but then he did it and you’re like, okay, this is interesting. But I ask Myles, if, um if you think there’s an appetite for, or do people just misunderstand it. Because a part of me feels like if I said to you, like, do you think that anybody should be able to just like say somebody’s a criminal and send them to another country? I would win on that. If I phrased a question like that, people would be like, okay yeah, that’s that’s crazy. But when he says like when it’s called due process or it sounds like some complicated government legal mechanism, then that feeds on this idea that everything’s too complicated, da da da. And so part of me is like, I don’t know if people actually sort of like the underlying big idea, but they don’t understand or aren’t like, I don’t know, or got the storytelling got warped. That’s what I believe in my heart. And I’ve been waiting to say that because I’ve been waiting to talk to y’all, but I’m not convinced that the appetite is like fully there for the big idea. [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: You know, it’s obviously, I disagree, um but I do want to honor that that reveals something really beautiful and layered about your heart, because I think that the perspectives that we see on government usually is what we’re reflecting back. But no, I do think that we’re in a meaner America than that question positions us. I think that if it was just about misunderstanding, if it were just about confusion and lack of clarity, then we would be talking about um and critiquing Vice President Madam Harris. It’s also there is a meanness and an evil and a darkness to what we’re talking about. And there is um this kind of structure that um the right has made for off ramps into their fascism. So sometimes the overcomplicatedness or the vagueness is um is is the off ramp to be that kind of that right wing evil. But the people who who who participated in it, they knew what they were getting, you know, and you kind of still see that because some of the things that we also are outraged around when you think about the immigrants and and and and how we’re seeing um folks getting treated, that is a very celebrated thing too. That is not a thing that’s being not being celebrated. So I’m a little bit more cynical about the about the temperature and the era we’re in when it comes to American culture and us as collective citizens. I don’t think it’s just about misunderstanding.
Sharhonda Bossier: Or at the very least, it’s not a deal breaker, right? And so like I think best case scenario, people are at least willing to swallow it if they feel like they get something else they want, you know? I think it is interesting, you know, that we’re also seeing um him push in so many other directions and start to lose ground with some groups, right. Like we talked about a dip in support among Latino voters, et cetera. But then to DeRay’s point about him saying just like wild stuff all the time, he’s like, we’re gonna build a bigger and meaner Alcatraz. And you’re like, hold on a second, where did that come from? That’s a tourist destination now, you know? And I’m just really fascinated by by that too, you now? And by, are people people who are so obsessed with efficiency and cutting costs, et cetera, are y’all not thinking about how expensive it’s gonna be to rehabilitate freaking Alcatraz so that it’s habitable? What is wrong with y’all?
DeRay Mckesson: It is sort of nuts, and two things, what you said made me think of, one is, Myles, I don’t know if you saw, but um Trump did another interview. He did it with um Moran, I think is how you say his name, and Terry Moran on ABC News, and Moran said, you know, people didn’t sign up for this. Like, you know, everything that’s going on, people didn’t sign up for a trade war is specifically what he said, but it sounded like a general comment.
[clip of ABC News’ Terry Moran] It’s one of the main reasons that you’re back in this office, and now we have this trade war with China that that Moody’s and other analysts say is going to cost American families thousands of more dollars per year. And there is a lot of concern out there. People are worried. Even some people who voted for you are saying, I didn’t sign up for this. So how do you answer those concerns?
[clip of President Donald Trump] Well, they did sign up for it actually, and this is what I campaigned on.
DeRay Mckesson: And Trump replied, well, they did sign up for it. This is what I campaigned on. And I was struck by that exchange because, you know, people joked Kamala when she talked about the tariffs. And people are like, she’s being like, what are the tariffs, ha ha ha. This is silly, da da da. And he’s like, No, no, I said I was gonna do the tariffs and that is true. That was that was not a surprise. Um. And what you said about Alcatraz, Sharhonda is so interesting because, you know, we decommissioned it as a prison, I don’t know, like more than 50 years ago. It is now run by the National Park Service.
Sharhonda Bossier: Right.
DeRay Mckesson: It is inhospitable. You know it is, the lift, it already is losing money as a tourist destination.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah exactly.
DeRay Mckesson: It will certainly lose money as a prison. So you’re like, is he actually wanting to open Alcatraz? Is this just a thing that he knows will take the news cycle for the next five days and then he moves on? Like
Myles E. Johnson: Or is it a undoable in the next three years task that somebody else can ride on? So now we are setting it up so somebody else like Mike Johnson, like somebody else um who’s conservative can ride-on Trumpisms. So that has been kind of my reoccurring fear or reoccuring statement throughout these conversations since President Trump got elected is that because he most likely won’t get a third term. I have to say that now.
Sharhonda Bossier: Let us pray. Let us pray.
Myles E. Johnson: But because he most likely won’t get a third term, I see um these bigger projects and these bigger ideas being presented so somebody else will have to see them through and finish them. And that’s sometimes what I see is a pathway for Trumpism to exist without Trump, which to me is more scarier than just one icon of Trump because you know he’s that means we’re a heartbeat away from exiting this neo-fascist era. Um. But if Trumpism exists without Trump that means that we’re this is a generational thing we’re dealing with.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: You know who didn’t benefit from this Trump era? One Sean Diddy Combs. [laughter] That for all of the connections that he has, and the U.S. Attorneys all over the country are dropping cases left and right. The federal government’s not prosecuting people. You know, there’s a famous case in L.A., Sharhonda, I don’t know if you heard where the um they a jury convicted police officers. The L. A. Attorney undid that, you know, like so much is happening. And, you, know, Diddy was as connected as as a celebrity could be connected. And, you know it is not helping him. But I bring that up because the Diddy trial is starting and Diddy, famously in Diddy world refused every single plea offer thrown his way and I am you know, I don’t think there’s a way for Diddy’s career to recover from this so I guess all he’s trying to do is stay out of prison like I feel like that must be the play or that he feels like he can get a better deal with the jury than he can get with the plea, you know, cause you don’t need the whole jury to be on your side. You just need one person to and you know, I think he’s probably banking on just getting one holdout who refuses. But I don’t know because if there’s more evidence like that Cassie video it’s going to be and the Cassie video is frankly enough for a lot of people to believe that more things happened even if there is not footage. But I completely forgot that the trial starts this week.
Sharhonda Bossier: I feel like the culture kind of moved on from Diddy really quickly. I feel like it was like, this happened, Diddy got arrested, he’s in prison, and like I don’t hear about it as much anymore. Um. Not in the same way that I think there was lots of public conversation and lots of like litigating and relitigating of other celebrities who were going on trial. Right. I’m thinking about like R. Kelly as an example. I think people were like, yep, Diddy did it, and like just sort of moved on. Um. I do, you know, as we’re thinking about the trial beginning, I wonder what his lawyers are advising him versus what he’s deciding, right? Like, are his lawyers also thinking that he will be able to benefit from his celebrity and, like, there being one holdout? Um. I do think the cultural tide is also shifting against anything that feels like me too. So they might be also trying to like ride that wave a little bit. I think it’ll be interesting to see what else we learn, um but yeah, I think for the most part, Black people were like, nah, y’all, he did it. And we just, I that’s my experience from my vantage point.
Myles E. Johnson: And I think I agree with everything that you um said, Sharhonda. And I think that this is a unique case that isolated Diddy strictly into spectacle and not into a martyr, you know? And usually there’s some type of gateway, but the queer stuff kind of blocks him with the straight men. The videotaping of him beating a woman blocked him out with Black women’s help. So he kind of um isolated himself in this really unique position that that um makes me believe in God. I’m like, goodness. I’m, like, well, if that ain’t hell. I don’t know, like, you know, just being that public and that crucified and having no like, you know even Tory Lanez to this day, R. Kelly to this day, has writers and people who are saying, no, that is, you, know, Roc nation will fall and Diddy because of all of his transgressions and the um and the color and dimensions of these transgressions created this like real um solitary consignment socially. Like, like he did, he did that socially. So I think that’s gonna be interesting, but I do disagree. I think once this case is back on and poppin, it the like the kids say, the nachos will be reheated. And and I and I think that um if there’s any hint of more celebrity interaction, if they’ve been holding on to something until it’s needed, I mean yeah, and and and last thing too, the reason why I think Trump will not um touch this in any type of way because Diddy, to a lot of conservative people, you have to remember vote or die. You have to remember a lot of um Diddy’s posturing was about that kind of Black neoliberal um social class posturing. If we drink enough champagne and pass enough Courvoisier, we can be free. And um I think as a part of him going down, that is like a Black Negro Epstein moment for people. So I think that that him um being kind of publicly crucified whether he wants it or whether he deserves it or not is also fodder for Trump’s base so that’s why Trump I don’t I could not see Trump saving Diddy um for any reason.
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know if you remember, but you definitely remember this part. Eric Adams was charged with corruption by the federal prosecutors. They rolled up on him on the street, took his phones, crazy, they got the police commissioner, all this other stuff. Then Trump wins and they tell Eric Adams, like, hey, we’re gonna put the we’re gonna put the trial on hold, we’re going to like drop it for now, but we have the right to bring it back whenever we want. A judge who actually was a civil rights lawyer before he became the judge, the this judge is like, okay, you can’t do that. That’s like holding it over his head. That is not cool. So he dismisses the charges fully. But what a lot of people missed is that a condition of the dismissals is that all the evidence will be made public. And that is happening in the next week or so. So it will be interesting to see what happens when all the government’s evidence is made public. I think Eric Adams’ team or somebody has been able to delay it up until now, but it is coming. It was a part of the order. So I am, I’m fascinated to see what that looks like. [banter]
Sharhonda Bossier: I need to stock up on my red wine before that happens because it’s a–
Myles E. Johnson: I’m like I was like. I want like great Oracle.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes we agree.
Myles E. Johnson: Shonda Rhimes to stop writing. I want her to close out this series and stop it because what, um yeah, this might just be like a little bit of a opening. Now that you positioned all the things happening this week prior, what we’re looking towards between the Met Gala and Diddy and and and Eric Adams, we might be looking. I mean, this might be a couple of moments before a whole new rupture in 2025 happens. Cause that’s a lot of things going on and all Black men focused. That’s interesting.
Sharhonda Bossier: I know I was just getting ready to say is this the second Katt Williams portal opening?
DeRay Mckesson: Katt really didn’t mean, and Katt doesn’t know that Katt set up Shannon too.
Sharhonda Bossier: Listen.
DeRay Mckesson: Like it was, it was a long, it was a long setup. You have a, what was that line? You have an unintelligible fascination with losers or whatever that line was.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh yes, yes.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Yes, yes yes yes.
DeRay Mckesson: He was actually talking about you, Shannon, like you are the loser too.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: You have a fascination with and baby.
Myles E. Johnson: Did you all see that interview?
Sharhonda Bossier: The Katt Williams interview?
Myles E. Johnson: No the interview with uh one of Shannon Sharpe’s accusers. She’s–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: — a redheaded woman.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh, the other woman, not even the one from the recent.
Sharhonda Bossier: Whew. Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: That one was so, I’m sorry just to like, to make a hard left, but–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: You said Shannon Sharpe and I had just saw it and I was like, whoa, this is wild. I thought. I don’t know, that interview felt more damning than anything, maybe because it was an interview and not just on paper or on form, but it felt so damning in there is speaking of, I think even with the success of Sinners, like I think that even with um the success Ryan Coogler and um Michael B. Jordan, I think there’s just something shifting in like the platonic like structure of public Black manhood in front of our eyes. Um.
DeRay Mckesson: I what was the interview like? Um what can you explain the interview to us?
Myles E. Johnson: So the interview was of her recalling her relationship with Shannon Sharpe, um recalling her abuse with Shannon Sharpe. And I would say the thing that tonally made it have a lot of gravity was, you know, in this kind of post-TikTok, everybody and dotting myself here just seems just a little too ready for a camera and too ready for a microphone. And she just did not have that um uh polish. She had all the clarity of somebody telling the truth but all of the demeanor of somebody who was not interested in public life and who was saying this, and that’s just something you can feel, that’s a vibe you can feel, and that felt like it wasn’t tinged with what the original 19 year old accuser had because unfortunately there was a lot of murky stuff going on with that um evidence and that unraveling that gave big enough gaps to say you know he might be a freak nasty man but does he deserve jail? Whereas this one you’re like okay well if you’re already gonna open up Alcatraz I got the first Negro apparently.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh goodness. Not Myles with the short list for Alcatraz. And the last pop culture thing, I don’t know if you saw the video that went viral with Shiloh Hendrix, the white woman in the park who uses a racial slur towards the little boy. So that was like its own thing. And then as of as of the recording, I think she has raised $643,000 on Give Get Go, which I think is a Christian GoFundMe site, because she said that her life is in danger because the video went viral of her being racist, of her using a rac– calling the Llttle boy, the N-word, and she is saying that, um, yeah she, her life is, her life is unraveling. But $600,000 she’s raised over this incident. And that has blown my mind, I’m not gonna lie.
Myles E. Johnson: Well, that’s how come I don’t think that these people just are confused.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Just to connect some stuff I’m like.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah yup.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m like, now how, what’s the excuse for that one right there? That that seems–
DeRay Mckesson: Well, let me just say, really quick. The confusing thing, I think what I also believe, because I do think some people these people clearly are not confused, is that I worry about the left trying to recruit these people as opposed to trying to recruit our people who just don’t come out, because I do think there are more people on our side who are confused or just don’t, are not listening in a certain way, who are winnable, they will get it, they like, you know, they believe in things like due process, they think the shipping people to other countries with no hearings is crazy. Like they think that two-year-olds should not be sitting in um immigration hearings, but people aren’t talking to them. People have given up on them as like just low ID voters and da da and you’re like, no, they the people you need. Cause these the people donating to Shiloh Hendrix, you lost them.
Sharhonda Bossier: They are lost causes.
DeRay Mckesson: There’s no speech that’s going to get them back.
Sharhonda Bossier: And they dedicate it to the lost cause. They still fly the lost-cause flag. They still, they are, yeah, you can’t get them back.
DeRay Mckesson: Got their whole names on this fundraiser.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m like, that’s wild.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Lost them and never had them. I think the weird thing about the psychology of white folks, too, is the fact that there is a type of um twisted compassion when you see those kind of videos. Because I do think for a lot of people, for a lot of white people, specifically those who find themselves on this far right side of um politics or racial um politics, is that they feel like, no, I’m exercising a muscle to not disrespect Black people. I’m exercising a muscle to not put Black um, to place Black people back on their social um cast. And I empathize with somebody whose muscle fails them and they say the N-word. And I don’t think that’s a reason for somebody’s life, financial, or social to unravel because of that. So I think it’s the empathy around it and just like the um, I was watching a Bell Hooks lecture and she was um years ago, which is depressing, um but like years ago she was saying, you know, the idea, the temperature around white folks and Black justice is we already gave y’all enough. Y’all have enough. What justice? Like that is her, that was her read of um white people’s feelings around it. And I think that extends to moments like this, where it’s like, oh my goodness, like you’re asking for too much like we have to respect you too, and we always have to be perfect, no. Mm mm.
DeRay Mckesson: Um. While we were recording, the Bureau of Prisons released a statement about Trump’s Alcatraz tweet, because if we did not say this earlier, Trump said he’s going to reopen Alcatrez on Twitter. That’s how we all found out about it, including the Bureau Of Prisons. The Bureau of Prisons said, and I quote, “the bureau of prisons will comply with all presidential orders. When we get additional information, we will be happy to provide it.” What a joke. Just one big joke.
Myles E. Johnson: And for the record, no matter what happens, I want the record to show that we complied in incremental, uh changed our way into hell. So hell is not just paved with good intentions, it’s paved with incremental change and just complying and just doing what the rules say.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: And on to the news of the week, the first Monday in May is always a big deal in these American streets because it is the Met Gala. And we have our cultural correspondent, the one and only Myles E. Johnson here to lead us through.
Myles E. Johnson: Ooh, let them eat cake, right? So I’m so curious about this year’s Met Gala because, A, it’s centering around male, Black male style. And I think as somebody who’s utilized fashion and just as we’re all a part of a culture that utilizes fashion in order to arm ourselves, in order to express ourselves, and also to negotiate self-expression and safety. So the more culturally or heritage um front-facing you want to be, maybe the more um tuxedoed you want to be or more or the more um dandy or dapper that you want to be. And I think this is such an interesting thing to explore right now because we’re outside of a Kendrick Lamar and Drake beef. So something happened and changed with that about what how Black men want to be represented that that kind of was democratically chosen inside of hip hop. And then we also um saw are seeing this like rupture with Shannon Sharpe, with Diddy, with Eric Adams. So this feels like such an interesting moment to talk about Black men but then, and Black men and Black men’s style. But also because it’s at the Met Gala in this moment, and I remember last year or a couple of years from now, the Met gala got tore up because one of the influencers said, let them eat cake. And it was seen as elitist and tone deaf. It was happening during um the genocide in Palestine. People just were disgusted by it. It’s interesting to see now Black men be it feels like the barrier to maybe insulate Vogue and the Met Gala from those type of critiques. You can’t critique us for this because, look, we’re centering Black men, you know? And that’s what this kind of feels like instead of just saying, you, know what, the Met Gala is something that we invented. It is another social construct, like race, so we can just recreate it or put it on hold for later when um the vibes is a little bit better. And but that’s just not a part of the ever-expansive project of capitalist ventures, so they have to keep it going. But it’s interesting to see who they chose to protect themselves from critique. And also, sometimes where it’s always a struggle because the Black artist is so sacred to me, but the Black celebrity is such a heinous class traitor. Because you see somebody who I love, who I felt compelled to talk about like Doechii, also participate in the hyper-consumerism that André Leon Talley um uh showed that that listen, I think it’s beautiful that I still is an architect in my own style world, but I’m just like, how disconnected do you have to be from the temperature of the rest of the world to think this is the time to deploy that stuff? And even in the wake of André Leon Talley’s death, who died in such a penniless way so we also know that that performance of extravagance and and and luxury was also minstrelsy because he was only performing it because when it actually came down to what money he had, what property he had, what power he had. We know that he didn’t have any, unfortunately, and that’s also a layer of his truth during um the last days of his life, or the last years of his life, rather. And then, and I want to say this with a huge asterisk because I’m saying this before the Met Gala. I also think that the vacancy of André Leon Talley, the not having him um be a part of some of these style and vogue moments feels a little strange. I understand that there’s other celebrities and even other um influencers or fashion influencers who are talking about it. But Anna Wintour was his friend. Even in his documentary, she named him as this encyclopedia that helped her be able to architect the new um pathways for Vogue. So he’s not just somebody who was just a clever purse for her to wear that that that spoke in this found European accent that he would wear. He was also this um huge intellectual, historical archive that she utilized in order to find her own wealth and her own sovereign independence from her family and to not see him centered in something that is so obviously touched by his ghost feels wrong. And feel strange. So with saying that, I’ll still be looking at the outfits. I will still be trying to recreate them with my with my thrift stores and my Zaras because I am in America and part of being in America is living in the contradiction and the paradox of it. And, you know, just bathe me in Target bags and blood, I guess.
Sharhonda Bossier: I am so glad you, you kicked us off because I don’t have much to add and don’t have to after that. Um, but I, I do think that I’m fascinated by their decision to go with this theme also in this political moment, right? I think not just for the reasons you named, which are about sort of insulating themselves from critiques about the rest of the world being on fire and leveraging Black people as the shields in that way, right. But also just in a moment where everything that is about centering Black people feels like it’s under attack, right? Our institutions, our museums, etc. Right? And so like, I’m very curious to see if or how people might leverage this as a political moment to make a statement about that. Um. Something kind of more more um global than just the the gala. But my sense is and in I think in some of the folks that you have named and have talked about people are just happy to be there like they’re striving to be invited. And I don’t know that people wanna run the risk of not being invited again to whatever other thing the people that are they’re gonna be at the gala with might do. And so I think might just play nice, um which would be really disappointing if if that were true.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I think, and I don’t even know if they’ll play nice, Sharhonda, but I do think that I hope that this moment will be one where Black people get to be really subversive about how they do their thing. Like I think there’ll be style moments that Black people will get and references that Black will get that will be political and solidarity building. And I do, you know, I think there’s often no substitute for being in the room. Now we should be able to make our own rooms too and the Met Gala is not, certainly not the only room in fashion. And there was another big launch at Jawara and Jarrod did a Black hair. Um. They launched a Black-hair collective. You probably saw the pictures of Julez with the straight hair that went viral. Like they launched a new thing during this moment. It’s not fashion week, but it is cool to see the Black fashion crowd just become more powerful and not need things like the Met Gala to be relevant and to be there. You know, Anna was listening. Myles, I don’t know if you saw that on April 16th, in a special essay, she wrote an entire essay about André Leon Talley, specifically referencing um how much she was inspired by him for this theme. So somebody got to Anna and was like get in front of this, before um before it’s a thing. I’ll read a part of it, she said, I thought of André so many times, happy and bittersweet moments mixed together. I thought how even when he was doing something one might have found slightly over the top, playing tennis in full Vuitton, for instance, it was for André an act of supreme confidence of total self-possession. André knew who he was and I know how much he would have adored Superfine, every aspect of it. The planning, the press conferences, an issue of Vogue dedicated to it. The exhibition catalog, how many outfits he would have planned for the parties to come. And not just for him, but for me, for everyone in my family, his friends, my friends, muses, fashionable acquaintances, anyone at hand. So I do appreciate that. And I don’t know if you saw Doechii’s Doechii made that ode to him with the Vuitton bag.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah that’s what I was thinking about when I said that. Mm hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: It was just cool and a couple other people did too. Um. And I think the critique is right. It’s so interesting in the moments when people use the power of Black culture to resurrect brands, to defend brands, to message brands, to and you know we run the internet and every Black person, whether we like fashion or not, will be tuned in to every single outfit that happens on Monday. And like that is money can’t buy that there’s no amount of press that can, you know, so I’m interested in that and shout out to Miss Tina’s book launch, by the way, because talk about a–
Sharhonda Bossier: Oh!
DeRay Mckesson: –press launch, this is random. But they had Miss Tina everywhere, Miss Tina, it was like you didn’t hear about you didn t even know she was writing a book. And then she was in every magazine. She was on every TV show. They did that, Yvette, you did that.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, so many so many good um interviews and clips and histories that she’s like been sharing. I feel like every morning I wake up to something different to her, um just to you know, I got a touch with a little bit what you said DeRay.
DeRay Mckesson: Go ahead, okay, what’s up?
Myles E. Johnson: I do think that those moments in the Met Gala also show like the limits of Black exceptionalism and excellence inside of like systems. Like there’s something about the fact that, yeah, you can resist all you want, be as subversive of all you want, but you’re still at the end of the day, creating spectacle to uh to help this institution and to help consumerism. And I think that that is part of the reason maybe why I feel so shaky recently around so many things that we make spectacle because I’m realizing that sometimes we can take um Black consumerism habits or Black internet habits as Black um political or ethical or intellectual progress. And it’s just not, it’s just us liking to see each other on television and us having this kind of um cathartic, incestuous moment when we see each on the on the red carpet and saying one day that could be me or that feels like it’s me and that being what we’re addicted to, not progress and that’s scary.
DeRay Mckesson: That makes sense and that makes me think about Saquon Barkley as like a really good example. I remember the first I have only been around him once and it was actually fashion week. He was at like a fashion week party. Virgil had thrown it and I got there early and he he had also gotten there. And I have, you know, I don’t watch football. I don’t have any deep feelings about him as a football player. But um I was shocked to see him be such a Trumper only because like he knows how much Black boys look up to him. He know like it is that actually matters and his Blackness is a part of what makes him relevant and interesting and um. And I do hope that there is like a cost for people like that, him, Nelly, like the whole crew. He just is the flavor of the week in terms of the latest Trump supporter, but it is, I think I’m, I think, I get worried when people can shield themselves with the celebrity of Trump and not have to contend with the ideas that he supports. And like, I’m like, blah, this is crazy. But it makes me think about that with you. What you said, Myles, is that like we can be so enamored with the visibility of the Met Gala, everybody being together. And you’re like, what does it mean to have our biggest Black celebrities all in one room, all in one place in the biggest city in the country? And the thing they are called to do is take a picture. And you’re like, well, that. You’re like, in this political moment, that cannot be it. Like that is, what a colossal failure of organizing. That makes sense to me.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes, and.
DeRay Mckesson: Okay, what you got? What you got?
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
DeRay Mckesson: What ya got?
Sharhonda Bossier: Sometimes.
DeRay Mckesson: I wasn’t even there until Myles took me there, then I was like–
Sharhonda Bossier: I know.
DeRay Mckesson: No I, you right.
Sharhonda Bossier: I know I hear you and I 100% agree with you. And I am like, when do we just get to be. Like when do we just get to have a good time? Like, why does everything that we do come with the additional burden or responsibility of seeing our behavior?
DeRay Mckesson: Okay, okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: As political.
DeRay Mckesson: I might be sold.
Sharhonda Bossier: Right? Like, why? You know, it’s like, and so that that’s part of what’s sitting with me too, is like this tension where it’s like you know how many times do you have to show up? How many causes do you have to donate to? How many protests do you have to go to? Not necessarily to like offset your participation at the Met Gala, right? But for people to like know you, know your politic, and be like, and I’m still gonna look good and have a good time. Like why can’t I do both of those things? Um. Is sort of what is sitting with me listening to the two of you. I’m finna get read in the comments, but yeah. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: No no I think that’s fair. As somebody who I feel like I have nothing left to prove, in the one night that I go out, people are like, DeRay is, and I’m like, oh my God, I really couldn’t work any harder. I like just, just one night. Maybe it is that people misrepresent what the nights are and they talk about nights like this as political statements and you’re like, no, no, it was just entertainment, right?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: And like, let it be entertainment. Let it be, like, let us name it as entertainment. Let’s not talk about it as like a Black power moment.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: And you’re like that maybe that is a compromise. Myles is like, and I don’t know.
Myles E. Johnson: It’s just that we went through, I mean, almost 10 years, almost 10 or 20 years of everything being radical, right? And like all of our like kind of choice consumption habits being radical and we have so many artists who didn’t just uh uh found their way through whimsy and through um artistic uh curiosities find themselves happen to be at the Met Gala. We have artists who um intentionally wrote things on their bags that talk to political change. We have artists who intentionally evoke certain types of ancestral nostalgic memory in order to um rise us up. We have artists who donned costumes during um some of our biggest spectacles that evoke Black revolutionary moments. So I hear that, but it just kind of falls flat because if that’s the game and you’re just like, well, I just want one night of of rest or fun, then how come you ain’t doing that in Mississippi? How come all y’all rich folk don’t go to Mississippi and create your own thing and everybody who’s a part of the Black Fashion Fair, which is a fabulous publication that I love, why don’t y’ all go there and fund that and create your own thing if it’s just about Black people having fun and loosening up? Why do you always have to have your fun, loosen up, be carefree, and let your image of your celebrity be in service to the expansion of a white supremacist media structure? Why is that all we got going on?
Sharhonda Bossier: Listen, as somebody who does nonprofit fundraising, I think a lot about how wealthy Black people leverage their wealth to get access to spaces that help expand like their own individual goals. And this is another example of that, right? Um. But I think it’s like also important for us to remember, like you going to the Met Gala ain’t got shit to do with me, you know, like at all. It’s not, and I think if we also, this is part of why I’m like should we see everything through a political lens? Because I think if we are a little bit more critical of when people sort of engage in those kinds of antics or statements, I think then we can see it for what it is and we’re not disappointed when at the end of the night, nothing has changed.
DeRay Mckesson: That makes sense. Look at that. That was good. We worked. We worked through we worked we worked that through. And Sharhonda, you’re right. I’m the first I had been in a lot of rooms. And let me tell you, I’m the biggest asker in the world. I was just um, I just saw Purvis on Broadway, which everybody should see. I went backstage. And when I first got back there I talked to two of the leads. I’m like, we run a speakers program at the juvenile jail in Cleveland. You think, like, once this play over? Can y’all come to Cleveland? They’re like, we got you, you know, and like–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: There’s something about being in the room that just like, allows you to make the ask.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere, more Pod Save the People’s coming.
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DeRay Mckesson: Well, my news is about um more politics, but it is about the drop in support amongst Latinos for Donald Trump. So with exit polls uh from the Trump election, it looked like Trump received almost 50% of the Latino vote last fall, so 46% according to exit polls, and now we have just passed the 100 day mark and it looks like he is around and between 27 and 34% according to a host of polls. And then two additional Latino polls, like Latino specifically focused polls, confirmed the decline. And I just thought it was interesting to put here. Also wanted to put alongside, I don’t know if you saw the, it was Van Jones did a segment where he was talking to like three Black Trump supporters. It’s like three or four Black Trump Supporters. But he did this whole segment and they were like, you know, we don’t regret it, dah, dah dah dah. So that blew my mind. [laugh] But the Latino poll was interesting to me because I remember watching this moment around the election. And I’m like, y’all, he don’t care about y’ all. He don’t care about us. I know he don’t care about Black people. And I know, he’s going to call every not Black but not white person an immigrant the moment, like, some sort of illegal person the moment he can. And now he’s sending people to El Salvador just on vibes. Doctorted photos saying, we think they’re in a gang. So the dip in support doesn’t surprise me. I just am, first of all, I’m like, it’s not lower? That surprised me. I’m, like, how is his approval rating even over 7%? You know, I’m like, Fox News is doing dirty work, really just screwing us over. But I wanted to bring it here because um you know according to one poll, they said that 63% of Latino voters believe that Trump has gone too far on immigration. And I’m sort of like with Trump narratively on this one where he’s like, y’all, I’m just doing what I said I was going to do. Like he was actually crystal clear about this one you know this was not one where he um surprised and then there was 43% reported that their family is struggling to keep with everyday expenses. And now he did sort of lie. He said everything was going to be cheaper. So like I, you know, if you believed him, then you did get hoodwinked on that one. Um. And then among those who rated their situation as barely getting by, 91% said Trump’s tariffs will increase inflation. Well, you know, you also said he was going do the tariffs. So, you now, I don’t know and then the Unidos US poll, nearly two thirds of Latino voters said the country is headed in the wrong direction and 70% blamed President Trump. 54% said the economy is worse than it was a year ago, half expect things to keep getting worse and 49% blame Trump for the rising cost of living. Um. And then 60% said, the administration is not focused enough on making everyday necessities more affordable. I don’t know. I’m sitting here like, this is when I’m not, you know, like I told you so is not helpful. And I’m like, Kamala was actually, I think people did not like Kamala the person, and I get it, like whatever, [?] I’ve heard the critiques, but she was also clear about what that man was saying. Like she was she was a good storyteller about what he was saying, people thought she was, might’ve been corny or whatever, I don’t know, but like I remember her talking about the tariffs and people being like, you fear mongerer. Like, how dare you? I remember her talking about project um kill the world, whatever it’s called, 2025 and people are like, he said that’s not his project, Kamala’s lying to people. And here we are. Okay, I’ll stop rambling now but what are y’all thoughts on the on the poll?
Sharhonda Bossier: I I think that people thought that they would know who he was going to attack and deport, right? Like I think they were like, he doesn’t mean me. You know what I mean? It’s almost like an experience I have as like a Black woman and feminist listening to rap music where I’m like, yes, he’s using the B word, but he’s not talking about me. And he’s 100% talking about me, you know what I mean? Like there’s this dissonance that you kind of have to have sometimes in order to like, enjoy the thing or believe in the thing, or do the thing. And I think lots of Latino voters were having that degree of dissonance, right? Where they were like, I have been here forever, I’m a hard worker, he’s not talking about me, he’s not talking about people like me, and I think they realized to your point really quickly, no, he meant all of you. There is no distinction, right. I think the last thing I will say, particularly about Latino identity in the US is that it’s really complicated and really diverse, and so I think it would be interesting to like see how people are thinking about like people who identify as Black Latinos versus people who um are like white proximate or white passing Latinos right and like how that support or dip in support breaks down along those lines because I feel like what happened is whiteness was starting to expand in the way that whiteness has to in order to survive to include some Latino communities right and that is kind of where they were voting and where they were going. And then they realized, in the same way that those Black men who were out here parading around for Trump, that there was no room in the inn for them. They those people got in there and closed the door behind them. And so their proximity to whiteness, real or perceived, did not save them. And I would be very curious to know if that is where he is seeing both the remaining support and also steepest declines in support.
Myles E. Johnson: It reminded me of what you even said earlier, DeRay, around, um just like all the reasons why people voted for, like why they voted, and one of the reasons that I forgot or didn’t articulate to mention is that, you know, another reason is we’re just having a cognitive intellectual emergency. And I think that not just that cognitive intellectual emergency is not just around um people not reading and people not studying and et cetera, et cetera. It’s also about people not trusting. I think that you have to trust the people you’re learning from and trust the people who you’re um hearing from. And I that when it comes to the progress of America, Black people, Black queer people are usually the stewards of that progression and we’re just not trusted as intellectual um bearers of intellect or of good thought. And unfortunately, this is interesting, I saw Anna Navarro talking about this and she didn’t quite say the words I’m about to use, but she was saying how in America, that was the first time she became a Latino. And she was staying in a kind of positive way of saying she feels camaraderie around other Latinos here and it’s not just about her, but also what it made me think of because of how my brain works is also that wiping and that forgetting of culture and how and how that is something uh that America does and that’s almost an initiation. There is no community that got absorbed into whiteness that was not initiated by terrorism um and was not initiated by poverty. So there it’s just interesting to be in this place as a Black person who remembers Bush and mama remembers Reagan to see a group of people fall victim to things that we will try to warn about and that we already experienced that kind of great forgetting.
Sharhonda Bossier: Even the Latino Bushes, right? Like the for a long time there was a belief that um that some of the Latino folks who had married into the Bush family and had you know children with Bushes that like they were going to be the next generation of rising Republican stars. I don’t know if you guys remember that, like the George Prescott Bushes of the world. Yeah, right, um there so I think yes. Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: This makes me think about the Met Gala in the sense that I do think that one of white supremacy’s like enduring tools is its seduction, like its seductiveness, like the and it is the pageantry and the institutions that seduce you. It is things like the Met gala that you don’t even realize you’re like reinforcing because that’s not why you’re going. Like you’re not no the Black people are not going there to be like, whew, let’s uphold this white institution. That’s not nobody’s that’s not a conscious thing but they want to participate in this legacy thing that just is doing it means all these things and I say that because um I can think about especially during the election and after like the number of people who are seduced by like Trump’s quote, “bravado” and his quote, “truth-telling” da da is like actually just the seduction of white power because he is everything people hate. He is a convicted felon. He is, you know, has, is a failed businessman, like on any other body, these would be deal breakers. And um, you know, Myles like you, and you sure on that, there is a question of like, how long will people continue to be seduced? You’re like, you know what is, Bell Hooks got a big chunk of people off the train, Baldwin got a big chunk of people of the train. But like, it’s still a lot of people that, you know who’s not on the train? Our sister, dear sister Solange. We need to, we need to kick out Donald Trump and put Solange in. We have a whole different everything in this place.
Sharhonda Bossier: I was gonna say a tie-in is actually when Solange was like, I don’t know why y’all keep going to these damn award shows like [?]
DeRay Mckesson: That’s what I was thinking of.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: Yes. Sister Solange said, no thanks.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, she I mean, and she you know she said it with the Grammy in tow. Um. [laughter] And Solange is my favorite. Like, I think that she is just a Black genius, her and Beyoncé. But I think, that is always the struggle, you know, and I think that’s always the thing where it’s like, no, like, how do you like negotiate those different those different things? And yeah, it’s it’s it’s hard.
DeRay Mckesson: But I actually think that Solange having the Grammy makes it more powerful because I think about the number of Black people I know who we like, I would consider myself one of them who participated in the thing because you didn’t know any better. You know, like you thought that was what like that was what the reward was. And then you got it and you were like, this don’t mean that. You’re like, oh, this is a scam. But you didn’t know it was a scam until you actually went through it. Um. And I think there are a lot of people like that.
Sharhonda Bossier: Well, my news to round this out is a shift in a completely different direction. Um. But it is about the potential development of a universal anti-venom. So, uh you know, every year snakes across the world, poisonous venomous snakes across the world bite about 2.7 million people uh and about 120,000 of those people die um and about 400,000 of those people end up with some significant injury, right? Um. And like lifelong complication from a snake bite. And the antivenom was first developed like 130 years ago, but much about how we develop it hasn’t changed in that time. And in fact… You almost have to have like the specific antivenom for the specific snake that bit you, right? Which is, as you know, complicated. And if you’re in a rural you know part of some poor country, the likelihood that you will get access to that antivenom is pretty slim, right. And so there’s this man who is a white man uh from the United States who has been slowly injecting himself with antivenom. And then letting live snakes bite him so that his body can start to build up immunity and begin to produce what scientists are now calling a new universal or potentially universal anti-venom. And so I’m bringing that to the pod um, one, because I find the like these kinds of scientific advancements really fascinating. And I think about how people in other parts of the world are constantly navigating challenges that I like just don’t even occur to me, right? Like the fact that you could be in your home and a snake would slither in and like kill you or your child is like, sorry, it’s like it’s hard for me, right? But it’s a reality for a lot of people, right. And so um you know I am thinking about that. I find that really fascinating. And also I’m like, you know they tell the story of the first time he let himself get bit by two live snakes, they were two cobras. He said he was fine after the first one and the second one then he passed out and woke up four days later, right? And I was like, this is wild to me, wild. And I’m just fascinated by the human body, right, which is why I’m also always bringing these kinds of stories to the pod. But yeah, just like a general curiosity and a like, wow, what a cool potential scientific advancement.
DeRay Mckesson: You hold it down for, I would have never found this story on any day, bad day, in between day, because this was not on any radar of mine and I think I have a lot of good sources.
Sharhonda Bossier: Did you watch the video?
DeRay Mckesson: No, the reading the thing was enough. I was like, this is so nuts. I, I’m just like, I want to go through like the actual thought in his mind, where he’s like, you know, I’m gonna let these I’m a let them bite me.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: And like, what job do you have? Like, what just what time do you have in the day to even think about this? And what doctors? What was your speech to the doctors? Like hey, I just let all the I let I let all the snakes bite me, can you like test me to see if? Like I’m like, how did you even, I don’t even know, I’m just so yeah, this is the WTF award for the pod goes to this this guy. Because no clue.
Myles E. Johnson: Um, I really did. I loved your retelling, um your soft retelling of this story and this article. Thank you for somebody who, you know, just has too vivid of an imagination. I was like, I can’t do this. Um. So what it did, so this feels like positive information is just despite the odd–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: The oddness, right? And what it did make me think about and map on top of it is the kind of ongoing conversation we’ve had around going back to the South and um and reclaiming farmland. And what excited me in it, not just because of this advancement, but just other advancedment we will have, advancements we’ll have is like that return to where that idea of returning to farmland with better um medicines and better technologies to help us arrive, but then also to um help us do things more efficiently. So that that felt like a little thing. And yeah, that felt like a little thing in my head. I was trying to[?]– [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: That was a real stretch there. You took a nice lean and stretch to the front. But shout out to him. You know, if we get a universal anti-venom and it’s thanks to this guy who put his body and life on the line proactively, then shout out to him.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s reverse um reparations eugenics.
Sharhonda Bossier: There you [laughing].
Myles E. Johnson: That’s what you should be doing with your white body. Because you know what, as long as you grant it permission, unlike us.
DeRay Mckesson: Now, you know, there’s the who knows well the FDA doesn’t exist. So–
Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Tell your friends to check it out and make sure you rate it wherever you get your podcasts. Whether it’s Apple podcasts or somewhere else. And we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Evan Sutton, executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors. Kay Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
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