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In This Episode
To post or not to post? That is the question…at least for us. This week Josie Totah, Alycia Pascual Peña, and Yasmine Hamady talk about performative activism and how social media has mobilized the activists in all of us for the best and for the worst. Plus introducing, a new segment” ‘The Ickuation Room’, the epicenter of the most divided political and social discourse of our time. Today’s topic for debate: the Zara landing page…there can only be one: Ick or Yum.
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TRANSCRIPT
Alycia Pascual-Peña: If you care about something, don’t be scared. Use your voice and post about it. It’s important other people feel seen.
Yasmine Hamady: Especially when you have a platform.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Exactly.
Yasmine Hamady: And people look up to you. I’m sorry. I know you don’t want to post. If like you want to be bipartisan and you have sponsors and your publicist–
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Yasmine Hamady: –is telling you don’t do it. But when you have 1.4 million followers on Instagram or–
Josie Totah: No, but even if your publicist is telling you not to do it, tell them to suck a dick.
Yasmine Hamady: I, Josie I a hundred percent agree with you.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was actually just going to say.
Josie Totah: Like your literal morality is worth more–
Yasmine Hamady: I agree a thousand percent.
Josie Totah: Than a job or dollar sign and you’re a fucking whore if you put–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I can’t.
Josie Totah: Your dollar signs over your morality. [music break] Hi, I’m Josie Totah. How are you guys doing?
Yasmine Hamady: Hi, I’m Yasmine Hamady. I actually recently found out that that’s how you mm pronounce my name mm. We’ve been trying to whitewash.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Hi, I’m Alycia Pascual-Peńa. And this is, Dare We Say.
Josie Totah: Can we talk about the fact that you just recently learned how to pronounce your last name?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I do feel like you need to go into a support group or something. How are you doing?
Yasmine Hamady: No, because– ahh here’s the thing. All of my family and [?] are like you’re not saying so it’s Yasmine Hamady. But obviously all these people and no one’s not going to. No one’s going to pronounce that correctly. So I know that. But my dad, when he was like coming to America at the ripe age of 12, like he was like uhh I think he was trying to fit in. You know, it’s a scary time coming to like Flint, Michigan, from the Middle East. And he was like Hamady. So that’s like the whitest you can sound. You know, I used to pronounce my name as Yasmine, Yas-men. That’s not my name.
Josie Totah: That’s embarassing. That’s embarassing.
Yasmine Hamady: How embarrassing is that? Literally, till college, I was like my name is Yasmine. And now and I used to say, Hamady. Even on the podcast trailer, I’m like, Hamady. And my parents are like, it’s Hamady. And I started crying.
Josie Totah: But how did no one notice?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: That’s what I’m saying, how did you go this long and–
Josie Totah: You lived for 24 years.
Yasmine Hamady: So you guys, I–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And Baba or like Teta didn’t say, little girl, you’re saying your name wrong.
Josie Totah: The only Arabic words Alycia knows.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Don’t play with me.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m working on it. And these bitches–
Yasmine Hamady: No please, please.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: –won’t teach me any more. [laughter]
Josie Totah: A little segway. How are you guys doing? Like, what’s the latest on everyone’s mental health? Like, how are you recovering Yasmine? I don’t know how comfortable you feel talking about this, but you recently departed from a lover.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Not Josie.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Josie Totah.
Yasmine Hamady: Josie, yeah bring, bring, bring it up. Bring it up. It’s fun. I mean, it’s an interesting one because I’ve never felt this way before and I feel like, I’m in L.A., the dating life in L.A. makes me actually want to drink my own vomit. And then. And then. And then drink it again after I vomit it again. Like, that’s the dating life in L.A. It’s literally a joke.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Yasmine Hamady: But meeting someone not from this country, like a UK person, like, has, like, [laugh] opened. I’m obsessed with the Brits. I know, I know they’re colonizers, but I’m obsessed with the Brits.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: No comment.
Yasmine Hamady: I really am obsessed. I’m I’m obsessed with the Brits. I don’t know why. Well, yes, I do. I studied abroad there, ehh but.
Josie Totah: Oh god.
Yasmine Hamady: I know I’m study abroad, girl.
Josie Totah: You’ll never live it down.
Yasmine Hamady: No, I won’t. But I think it’s interesting. Like when you don’t know what to do, when, like, it’s a for– it’s almost like a forbidden love. I’m so dramatic, but it’s like, right person, wrong time [?].
Josie Totah: Okay. Yeah. Describe the situation. You basically met someone. You have been messaging them for like a week on Hinge. And then–
Yasmine Hamady: No, on text message.
Josie Totah: On text message.
Yasmine Hamady: And then we went to WhatsApp. And then we met–
Josie Totah: And then you moved to WhatsApp which when it gets in to WhatsApp that’s how you know, it’s getting serious.
Yasmine Hamady: Yes.
Josie Totah: And so then you meet up with this person, you spend 24 hours with this person.
Yasmine Hamady: Rendezvous.
Josie Totah: And you’re in love.
Yasmine Hamady: Well, I wouldn’t say that it’s actually in love. But like infatuated.
Josie Totah: No, but like it’s like. It’s like puppy love.
Yasmine Hamady: It’s like, love you! It’s puppy love. It’s like I’m a little new baby puppy and I’m wagging my little tail because I’m so happy all the time. But then reality hits. And for me, I’m an optimist. I’m not a realist. I’m always like, no, but we can make things work when it’s like, realistically, no, you can’t. Like that’s just not it, because–
Josie Totah: There’s a 6000 mile distance between you.
Yasmine Hamady: 6000, and also like I need physical affir-, like physical–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Validation.
Yasmine Hamady: Of affirmation, validation, affection, and so does this person. And also, like, I’m not in a place to be committed to anyone right now because we have this podcast going, we’re working, we’re, we’re young women, you know, like we’re 22 and 24 and 23 years old. We need, the world’s our oyster.
Josie Totah: I’m not 22– wait bitch I’m 21.
Yasmine Hamady: I forget you’re 21 sometimes.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was waiting.
Josie Totah: I just turned 21 five days ago
Yasmine Hamady: And I literally texted you 21 and I said, 22, this is my fault. I’m an awful friend. Let it be known. I’m just honestly obsessed with you living this, like. Beautiful, like. I don’t know. I feel like you being in Scotland, Josie, we’ve talked about this before, but it’s kind of like you were having that, like a broad experience.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But better.
Josie Totah: I really am. I literally brought Alycia to Scotland.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yes.
Josie Totah: And I told her I was like, I just need you to be a damn bitch. And she said say less.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: You know what? I–
Josie Totah: This girl, when I tell you, this girl brought it to Scotland this past week.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Thank you.
Josie Totah: She brought every part of her body–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Please.
Josie Totah: Emotions, her soul.
Yasmine Hamady: Yup.
Josie Totah: And she just laid it out out there on the dance floor. And I think my entire cast was like, who is this unicorn that you’re best friends with?
Yasmine Hamady: The unicorn. She, she’s a unicorn.
Josie Totah: Alycia, what was your perception of that [?]?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: That truly means.
Josie Totah: It was a very it was a historic night.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: It really was it was actually one of the best experiences I’ve ever had going out in my life.
Yasmine Hamady: Wow!
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mind you, did my ass think I was going to say that about Scotland? Scotland?
Josie Totah: No.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Absolutely not.
Yasmine Hamady: Her literal arse didn’t.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Girls [In a Scottish accent] Sorry. I just wanted to say the one word I could say in a Scottish accent. It’s very hard, but I appreciate it.
Josie Totah: What does that. What was the word?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Girls [In a Scottish accent] Girls. Spice Girls. It’s supposed to be, okay. It’s awful. It’s awful. But let me get into it.
Yasmine Hamady: That was horrendous.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: How dare you?
Josie Totah: I’m like, I’m like proud.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Thank you, Jos. But wait. Let me just be so honest. Like, just. As much as I want to see the world and I want to travel. I never thought Scotland was a place that I’d really want to go to. Like, frankly, if Josie wasn’t there, I would have never visited Scotland. You know what I mean? And also.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m totally going to keep it a buck. I’m like, what diversity do they have in Scotland? Like, I’m not trying to travel across–
Josie Totah: Right.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: –The world to be the only Black girl in every space.
Josie Totah: Right.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But let me tell you something.
Yasmine Hamady: Tell us.
Josie Totah: She was shocked. She was surprised.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was shooketh. It was amazing, Scotland was amazing.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But anyways, let’s get into this iconic night that I had with Josie’s phenomenal, lovely, talented cast. So I knew that I was in for a ride because it’s Europe, right? And I’m like, I’m not going to be hearing, like, trap music in every space. So I committed um and I was like, wherever the night takes us, I am here with my bestie. And also I’ll go anywhere with Josie and you Yas um because I love you guys, and you guys are my sisters. And then we go to this place called East Side. This white bald DJ is playing afrobeats and hip hop. And I was like, Ah!
Josie Totah: He was.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Look at me underestimating Scotland. And I had the time of my life.
Yasmine Hamady: Slay.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Literally Bronx was written on the wall and I just kept on yelling at Josie and being like, we’re in Europe. I was very happy. And then after that was where I was taken out of my comfort zone, and I am utterly surprised about how much fun I had. We walked into what seemed like a dungeon for bats, um no lights inside. You could not see anything.
Yasmine Hamady: Love. Love.
Josie Totah: It was amazing.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: There were no words to any of the songs. Yas.
Yasmine Hamady: Oh, dang. Ooo god damn it.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And you know how much of a snob I am when it comes to music.
Yasmine Hamady: I wish I was there.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like, I do everything with music.
Josie Totah: I mean, I looked at Alycia, I was just lost in the crowd, and I looked at Alycia and she was on the stage where, like–
Yasmine Hamady: Yup.
Josie Totah: And it was like, not the place to be on the stage.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like, I promise.
Josie Totah: But she was on the stage.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: People don’t do that there.
Josie Totah: And she, and I looked at her dead in the eye and I was like, Are you having fun? And she was like, I’m having fun. And it was, it was seeing it was like seeing my first born, like, fall in love. [laughter] Okay. So today we’re going to be talking about performative activism and debuting oh my gosh, I’m so excited. Our first ever Ickuation Room.
Yasmine Hamady: Oh, my God. Oh, you guys are going to love this.
Josie Totah: Basically, the Ickuation Room is based off of our love for the one place on earth where nothing matters and everyone can just be their most psychotic self, the courtroom. Basically, I am a judge and Alycia and Yasmine are like I would say, like the litigators, um the lawyers, if you will.
Yasmine Hamady: It’s giving legal, it’s giving legally blond, but none of us are blond.
Josie Totah: We will put one conversation on the table, one subject, something extremely controversial, like, I don’t know, like is Avril Lavigne really herself or is there like multiple of her?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Tea.
Josie Totah: Or maybe she never existed to begin with? Um and then like we’ll do like there there’ll be someone fighting for Ick so like and Yum, um so like they’ll fight for 60 seconds of whether or not Avril Lavigne, her existence is Ick or Yum.
Yasmine Hamady: We physically fight, we wrestle, we get into the ring [banter]
Josie Totah: So they’ll start beating each other up.
Yasmine Hamady: We go crazy kooky.
Josie Totah: Our producer is making a weird movement with her hand. I can’t tell if she’s having a seizure or. Okay. I think we need to take a break. But we’ll be right back.
Yasmine Hamady: Hey, you. Yeah, you. You pretty mother baby. Do you follow us on Instagram and YouTube? No? That’s ugly, then, bitch. What are you even doing? Follow us @DareWeSay on Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube.com/darewesay. We’ll be right back. Slay. [music break].
[AD BREAK]
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Okay. There’s been something that I always think about, but specifically lately with, you know, so many things going on within our country and stuff and how we interact with like awful atrocities on social media. And it makes me wonder, like, who’s actually sincere about this shit when it comes to like posting about activism or posting about a certain problem or domestically or internationally, whether it’s a war or like, you know, a tragedy that happened. And as you guys have heard me say a thousand times, one of my favorite phrases is saying, like, where the black square bitches at? Like, you know.
Yasmine Hamady: Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: During Black Lives Matter, the height of the protests during the pandemic, I saw people that are literally racist.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Or have like said such like offensive ignorant things to me being like, I stand in solidarity and only seeing them post a black square.
Yasmine Hamady: Mm hmm.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And how that was like, really disorienting and hurtful. And it just makes me wonder, like, how do we properly interact with things on social media when it comes to like activism and like being vocal about political issues?
Josie Totah: To post or not to post.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: To post or not to post that is the–
Yasmine Hamady: That is the question.
Josie Totah: I think it’s interesting because I remember when the black square stuff was happening and it was such a stupid thing because it like flooded all the Black Lives Matter hashtag like actual informative posts with just like obviously black squares and and in one hand it was like what this obviously speaks to a larger issue, but just touching on like this one part of it, like it speaks to some people who like weren’t really speaking up but like I knew did have good intentions.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm hmm.
Josie Totah: And then also like you said, like the performative activism part of it too. And just my mindset like throughout that whole summer, which was trying to decide whether or not I thought that it was okay, that I saw some people obviously posting informative things and raising awareness and then some people not posting. And I was realizing like the way that I felt about the people not posting was like negative. And I felt that if I didn’t see them post something or if I saw them post something else that like they didn’t care. And I like have to be honest, like that did affect my relationships with some people because there are definitely some people who just like don’t post on Instagram because Instagram is like very stupid. But it’s also something to say that like Instagram is how we all communicate now. And there is like a social contract that you sign when you sign up for Instagram, and that is to display yourself in the way in which you want to be perceived.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm.
Josie Totah: And if you are displaying yourself and you’re wanting yourself to be perceived in bikini pictures, the week of George Floyd’s death.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Exactly.
Josie Totah: Er Murder, rather.
Yasmine Hamady: Mm hmm.
Josie Totah: Then that says something about you, and I definitely used to be best friends with a few people that I’m not anymore because I didn’t just stop being friends with them. But I texted them and was like, I inquired as to why they they were silent and I didn’t like their response, but that’s my take on it.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. I mean, I have to say that during that time I, I was I’m very vocal about everything I believe in. And I did actually post a black square and I went to bed and that was a couple of hours. And a friend of mine, a Black man, said to me, please delete this. This is, it’s not doing anything it’s, and I deleted it right away. And you learn from it because you have to grow, you have to learn, and you have to move forward with that. You can’t get, especially as a non-Black person, in a white passing person, you can’t be offended or be fragile with it. You have to take it and go forward. And I think with times like that, people just posting a black square, even now I see these token social justice warriors.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh my gosh.
Yasmine Hamady: On Instagram, you know, when they have uh fuck the patriarchy on their Instagram bio, posting all of these like. These things that I’m like, Do you actually do anything about it? Or are you just trying to do something for ego?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah.
Yasmine Hamady: It’s just a pat on the back a lot of these posts to reshare.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: First and foremost, I want to thank you guys for like always being so committed to growth and like accountability. And I think that that is something that we lack as a society. And I’m including myself in that, like if you’re not a part of a group, be okay with being corrected and learning and evolving. You know, that takes accountability and that isn’t easy, but that is how we get to a place that we want when it comes to healing and equity. But what makes me laugh is, you know, I’ve had people sit me down or ask me questions like, am I bad for not posting? Or like, as a Black person, what’s your opinion?
Yasmine Hamady: Mm mm.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And it always makes me laugh because I’m not going to let you gaslight me and tell me, well, Instagram, does it matter? Okay. You’re right to an extent, because social media is a farce. And at the end of the day, I’d much rather you not post shit about anything you do and be doing things in real life and showing up.
Yasmine Hamady: Sure.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And being an ally in real life. But let’s be honest, you think it’s really important to post that selfie and to make sure that this person viewed it?
Yasmine Hamady: Mm hmm.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: You think it’s really important to talk about your sorority event and make sure that everybody posts about it. So why can’t you have the same energy when it’s talking about people’s human rights?
Yasmine Hamady: I agree.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: So stop feeding me the bullshit that Instagram doesn’t matter when it really matters that you get that bikini picture from the Santa Monica Pier up there.
Josie Totah: Say it. Yup.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like put your money where your mouth is. Priorities like start changing when it’s different topics and they’re like, Oh, it’s not the same thing. I’m just not as comfortable talking about it. Okay, cool. But at least have the perceptiveness and wherewithal to know like, hmm, there was a mass shooting today. And also people are crying in the streets and I see my Black peers or, you know, queer siblings going through something right now and they’re really distraught. Maybe it’s not time for me to post my high pictures at the club. You know what I mean?
Yasmine Hamady: I don’t need to post a thirst trap when I have when there are people being murdered.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: You know what I mean?
Josie Totah: Literally. [banter]
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And I get it. At the end of the day, your Instagram is your Instagram, if it’s not who you are, please don’t post, get it. But at the same time, I think it’s about intentionality.
Yasmine Hamady: I agree.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And specificity.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: So stop feeding me the lie that it doesn’t matter because it matters about other things. So use your platform properly and that’s my opinion.
Josie Totah: Well, I was also going to say too like with posting and stuff like I think it’s sort of a hard thing to explain to people why it’s–
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Josie Totah: –Frustrating only because like I don’t know. Instagram is so strange and like I even remember having a conversation with my sister when she was asking me about um a friend that I had, and I was like, Oh, I don’t really talk to her anymore. Like, she was genuinely like very silent, like during the summer of 2020. And I just, I spoke to her about it and like, she honestly didn’t seem to like care that much. And then like once I fully explained it to my sister, she got it. But like when my sister first asked, I was like, yeah, of course not. If you’re not fucking posting like what the fuck is wrong with you? And like, I could tell that like that immediately, like shut down.
Yasmine Hamady: Mmm.
Josie Totah: Like any chance that I could get of like teaching her or like just showing her, like, just what I meant by that. And I think I just, like, got triggered because the people that annoy me the most are the ones that posted that um Instagram graphic that said some are marching, some are cheering, some are posting and some are praying.
Yasmine Hamady: Yes!
Josie Totah: We’re all doing stuff differently. And I’m like.
Yasmine Hamady: Might as well just say.
Josie Totah: Might as well just say, you don’t fucking care.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, there it is.
Josie Totah: You’re literally.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But it’s not even that. It’s like you’re not saying, oh my gosh, we all have different ways of fighting this fight because that’s true. But a lot of people posted that.
Josie Totah: Most of that doesn’t need to be said.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: No. Exactly. But there’s also like a lot of people that posted that and are like, but I’m uncomfortable having the conversation at the dinner table. I just don’t know enough. Well just show up broken and feeling not enough rather than not showing up at all.
Yasmine Hamady: A thousand percent.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And people are way too comfy not showing up at all.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, I want to I want to bring up. I almost actually. I almost lost a couple friends who were actually rooting for me and on my side during the summer of 2020, on August 4th, on my birthday, when the Beirut blast happened, the explosion. Lost my home. Lost family members. Lost everything. And I was just asking people like my very close friends, why aren’t you posting this? Why aren’t you talking about Lebanon? When they’ve already donated, they’ve already shown me the receipts, they’ve been check up, checking up on me every single day. But I’m like, why aren’t you posting?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm hmm.
Yasmine Hamady: One of my best friends sat me down, and she’s like, I hear you. You are hurting. But when you’re shoving it down people’s throat in an aggressive tone.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Yasmine Hamady: For me, you kind of, people want to be there for you. And if the people are actually they don’t really give a shit, you shouldn’t have them in your life, period.
Josie Totah: Mm Yeah I agree.
Yasmine Hamady: And you know who those people are. But for your close friends who are actually doing it when posting is really just not their thing. It shuts, it creates a a really bad, unhealthy friction in the friendship.
Josie Totah: And I’m proud of you for bringing that up, because I’ve done that, too. And I think that’s where, like, liberals are just like progressive people and like, this is like a right wing thing too. Like it’s just like where passion over rights like just like fact and like, sanity and civility.
Yasmine Hamady: Sure.
Josie Totah: And like I think that is obviously like one of the holes in our country in general. And we have to be cognizant, we have to hold ourselves accountable, because I think it’s so important for people to, like, be on top of it and to be slightly aggressive because these conversations need to be had.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah.
Josie Totah: And people need to be reprimanded. But it’s also like we lose people automatically as soon as we are so inflammatory with our language and our rhetoric.
Yasmine Hamady: I agree. Someone said this and then I want Alycia because you’re about to say something. Don’t mistake my passion for aggression.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Hmm.
Josie Totah: But you can’t expect people.
Yasmine Hamady: But you can’t ex– And so there’s this duality. It’s. It’s so difficult.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: It’s it’s really nuanced and complex, because as much as if you follow me, then, you know, like I post. An ig– Immense amount about the things that I’m passionate about.
Yasmine Hamady: As you should.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Because that’s the way I want to navigate my Instagram.
Yasmine Hamady: Sure.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But I’ve told so many of my friends, like, if it doesn’t feel natural and it feels disingenuous, don’t do it.
Josie Totah: Hmm.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I prefer you to be that person that shows up otherwise, you know what I mean? Like be about it in real life. That is so much more important, because some of my favorite people who are allies have never posted anything, but they show up for me personally and they show up for other people in real life. At the end of the day, don’t get it twisted, you know what I mean?
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Josie Totah: So then what about the people that you don’t know in your life personally, that you don’t see post, you view them more negatively?
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Not even.
Yasmine Hamady: I do a little bit. In some way.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Hey, here’s my thing. For me.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: If you are someone who posts all the time and you are someone that navigates social media very frequently and you never say something, I will say I have a negative perception of you.
Yasmine Hamady: Sure.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But there are also those people who don’t want to live online. And I also, I also respect that, like I’m just like don’t do anything that feels disingenuous and forced because then on the other side of the spectrum, I know people that do not avidly have certain conversations but have in their Instagram bio: advocate. And advocacy.
Yasmine Hamady: So you would call that performative activism.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And that– and it’s performative activism. And that is like a really scary place because, like I, I say this all the time, like. I like my people like straightforward.
Josie Totah: I like my racists racist.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I like my racists racist.
Yasmine Hamady: Yup.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I say it all the time, like, you know what I mean? Like, don’t say something that isn’t natural to you because then that’s murkier water, frankly, that’s scarier. Not to make it be all super deep, but like Birmingham, Alabama, Martin Luther King says it best. He’s like the white moderate liberal is more dangerous to us in our progression than the far right Republican, because I know where the far right Republican stands and I can have a conversation at the middle of the table with him. But a liberal, moderate, progressive person where they don’t know and they’re just posting because they think they need to.
Yasmine Hamady: Can I just.
Josie Totah: Please.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: That doesn’t empower us. It doesn’t.
Yasmine Hamady: Alycia. Yes, and I just want to say a little monologue from your favorite white influencer. They’re all over. [clears throat] I just want to acknowledge and acknowledging my that the world is messed up and I stand with my brothers and sisters in this fight of acknowledging an equal opportunity. And I take responsibility. Gay rights. That’s what they all fucking sound like whenever someone holds them accountable for their actions on Instagram.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Here’s my thing.
Yasmine Hamady: That’s what they sound like.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Here’s my thing. If you care about something, don’t be scared to use your voice and post about it. It’s important. Other people feel seen. Especially when you have a platform.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Exactly.
Yasmine Hamady: And people look up to you. I’m sorry. I know you don’t want to post if like you want to be bipartisan and you have sponsors and your publicist is telling you don’t do it. But when you have 1.4 million followers on Instagram or–
Josie Totah: No, but even if your publicist’s telling you not to do it, tell them to suck a dick.
Yasmine Hamady: I, Josie I hundred percent agree with you.
Josie Totah: Like your literal morality.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was actually just going to say.
Josie Totah: Is worth more.
Yasmine Hamady: I agree a thousand percent.
Josie Totah: Than a job or a dollar sign and you’re a fucking whore. If you put your —
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I can’t.
Josie Totah: Dollar signs over your morality.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And I’m a keep, I can’t.
Yasmine Hamady: Tea.
Josie Totah: Sorry.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: No that was a word Josie. Yes, social media is fake and it’s a farce and it’s bullshit sometimes. But I’ve had people reach out to me and I’ve reached out to people being like, Yo, I don’t even know you that well, but you posted about like immigration and thanks. I see you for that. You know what I mean? Like in this really fucked up world, sometimes little shit like that can matter. So if I’m going to be the annoying girl who posts a little bit too much, unfollow me. I don’t care about that shit. You know what I mean? So it’s just like. Do what feels natural, but just do better. Be better. Like I live by that. Do better be better. Do your due diligence.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And try to show up for people. And if social media is a part of that and then it’s a part of it.
Josie Totah: You can’t expect people of color, the people who are being oppressed.
Yasmine Hamady: Mm hmm.
Josie Totah: To come at you in any sort of way. That isn’t the reality of the situation, so that you can be better suited to learn because that’s your fucking job. But it is also our jobs as the non-black people.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Josie Totah: To reach out if we care and to say shit and to speak up.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And I’m going to be honest. Like I have friends that deal with those situations differently, but I purposely don’t reach out to a soul. But if you know me, you reach out to me and you ask me questions, even if they’re rooted in ignorance. But you’re genuinely curious. I feel like one of my purposes is to like educate through empathy. But I think that we also need to like do a much better job at telling people, like, it’s not your job for someone to educate you. Because so many white people have come up to me and I’ve spoken to like other siblings in other different oppressed communities, and they share their stories of people coming up to me and being like, teach me. And I’m like, That’s not your job. Like, you know what I mean? So I think people do need to use their resources better, whether it’s social media, obviously with you doing research because you can’t trust everything you see. That’s also another thing. So many people post things and don’t actually know what the fuck they’re posting.
Josie Totah: I was going to, that goes into–
Yasmine Hamady: I wanted to.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And that’s crazy.
Yasmine Hamady: That’s literally what I wanted to talk about.
Josie Totah: Yeah, yeah.
Yasmine Hamady: It’s like we talk about posting to post, like how you said I had my racists like I have my racists.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yes, yes yes yes, posting to post.
Yasmine Hamady: Are you just posting to fucking say I was a part– I did it.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: A lot of people do.
Yasmine Hamady: A lot of these people–
Josie Totah: I have to say something.
Yasmine Hamady: Say it and then I have something to follow up on.
Josie Totah: Have you guys ever been a performative activist before or have you ever fallen into that tendency?
Yasmine Hamady: Honestly once I’ll tell you once.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh, my gosh.
Yasmine Hamady: It was like an animal.
Josie Totah: I have to say I have. Have you?
Yasmine Hamady: I have. It was like during during like the–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Have I been a performative activist?
Yasmine Hamady: Once.
Josie Totah: Yeah.
Yasmine Hamady: And it was during animal rights. Like.
Josie Totah: Wait, wait wait wait.
Yasmine Hamady: They were like slaughtering like an elephant.
Josie Totah: No I’m talking. I’m talking.
Yasmine Hamady: And I was like, okay, I’ll post that. Don’t slaughter the elephants. [spitting laughter]
Josie Totah: I’m talking like something that matters.
Yasmine Hamady: Elephants do matter.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: You’re so disrespecful, elephants matter? Oh wait wait, no no.
Josie Totah: I know I’m joking.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m really–
Josie Totah: I’m talking about, like, Black Lives Matter or like queer rights.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Wait, wait. Ok I thoroughly believe in this. So it’s not performative, but I will say I’m not doing enough. Like I could be someone who was vegan. I could be a lot more adamant about the way that I’m recycling–
Josie Totah: Wait.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: –And reusing. So I do um I do post about sustainability, but I think that I could be better in how I am a sustainable individual user. Not like we should hold corporations accountable or anything and oil and whatever. But I was really racking my brain um because I try to be super adamant about not posting about anything I don’t thoroughly believe in. So I think I’m pretty good at that. But if there was one thing that I could do better, I’m I’m going to talk my shit. Like, unlike a lot of other people, I haven’t had the choice on whether or not I want to talk about something because I was forced to have to navigate it, you know what I mean? But obviously, like, I’m not know all be all. But I would say I could be so much more sustainable. And sometimes I do feel convicted about not taking greater measures in regards to like climate change. But I do post about climate change because I do believe in that like we could do better as a society and corporations obviously need to be held accountable.
Josie Totah: Right.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But, um. Yeah. How about you? What’s your story?
Josie Totah: My, my experience is that I have been a performative activist before, and it was with Black Lives Matter. [gasp] And during the summer in 2020, I’m just being really honest.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh okay.
Josie Totah: I realized that during that summer I was a great, whereas I was told by people that followed me a great re– resource for some people because I was the only person that a lot of people were following that were posting about this.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm.
Josie Totah: And I took that really seriously. And I always, if you guys know me, you know, I always read everything before I post it.
Yasmine Hamady: You always do.
Josie Totah: And I think we all try to.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: We all do.
Josie Totah: Obviously we all do. But like I am–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: You don’t play.
Josie Totah: –So scared of like reposting something. I know we’ve had conversations before. I’m like, where was that from? I was like, where’s your source? [banter]
Alycia Pascual-Peña: She’ll DM me and be like, where’d you get this from?
Josie Totah: You always have your source.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah I’m like.
Josie Totah: But I always double checked because.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Of course.
Josie Totah: I am.
Yasmine Hamady: You have so many eyes on you.
Josie Totah: And well, and even if I didn’t too, like I never want to put my name on something that isn’t something that I necessarily represent.
Yasmine Hamady: Sure.
Josie Totah: And I remember during that summer, I had to get a surgery and I was going to be down for the count for fucking two days. Cause’ my fucking doctor Marcy was going to knock me out with anesthesia and I was like, Holy shit, I’m not going to be able to post for like three days while I’m on Ambien and like, you know, flirting with my nurses. And that was scary for me.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Josie Totah: And I remember I asked a girl, our friend Roxy, if she could, like, log in to my Instagram and if she could, like, post for me and like, make sure to read everything, make sure it’s posting. Because I didn’t want people to think that I just stopped caring. And I also didn’t want people to think that I was no longer a resource for them. And that’s my story of being a performative activist because in theory, like, I shouldn’t have done that. I think in retrospect, because–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Wow.
Josie Totah: It wasn’t, even though it was for good intentioned reasons, it was still me presenting myself in a way in which that isn’t authentic. So I take accountability for that.
Yasmine Hamady: Thank you for sharing that Josie.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: That was really powerful. I think that that’s a great point. I adore you, will always have convos like that on our way to coffee but um at the end of day, preserve your peace. And it’s it’s not our job to have to run to the altar to save people. Like just because an issue affects me if I feel naturally inclined to, and I grace you and honor you with my opinion or wanting to educate you then. Okay.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But it isn’t my job to fix or give you an opinion. [banter] [laugh] Um especially when I’m burdened with the oppressive force. You know what I mean? I’m curious to know, has social media ever changed your mind about something? And do you think that we should just keep posting? How do you think we should interact with activism and posting on social media?
Josie Totah: I think we can carry on with having this newfound sense of knowledge, which is being able to talk to people with the greatest, as you say, educate with empathy. When we are speaking to people who are being more silent and I think with ourselves, if we feel like expressing ourselves in the best way possible is to use social media, we should continue to do that. And yes, I think I’ve learned from social media and I’ve heard from people that they learned from stuff as well. And that is that’s a privilege. And I’m grateful that we have that medium. So, yes.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I just will quickly say all of the nuanced pros and cons considered, I think. Most. Most of the time it is more fruitful to be posting things that you’re passionate about. If it feels natural and at the end of the day, I think this conversation doesn’t even matter if you’re not doing it in real life. So make sure that–
Yasmine Hamady: A hundred percent.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Social media is a starting point, but start there. That’s what I think.
Josie Totah: So if the question that we posed in the beginning was to post or not to post, then I guess we all feel like the answer is–
[spoken together] To post. [laugh] [music break].
[AD BREAK]
Josie Totah: [music break] Welcome to the beating heart, the epicenter of the most divided political and social discourse of our time, where we debate some serious topics. And it’s also the final destination for your last brain cell. I’m Judge Josanna, and this is The Ickuation Room. [judge gavel sound] Now there can only be one Ick and Yum. Each party will present their case based on the topic that we present in front of them. Today’s topic, Zara landing page. Ick go first. [gavel sound] 30 seconds on the clock.
Yasmine Hamady: Your Honor, thank you so much for having me today. I just want to bring up something that’s very important today, and that’s the mental health of our youth. The, a Harvard study did show that the number one case of anxiety for youth is caused by what? The Zara landing page. And with anxiety on the rise and depression on the rise after the pandemic. Online shopping went up and everyone went to Zara running, screaming to Zara. But Zara’s landing page is the worst thing in America since the insurrection on January 6th. [gavel sound] Thank you, Your Honor.
Josie Totah: Out of time. Thank you Ick. Yum, please appease the Court. [gavel sound]
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I have to be honest, I think that um my opponent is spreading fake news. The Zara landing page is a great place to go to look for the clothes that you know you’re going to buy anyways.
Yasmine Hamady: Okay.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Everybody complains about the page, still goes to Zara and it’s an experience, it’s giving avant garde.
Yasmine Hamady: It’s giving fast fashion.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: It is giving looks and it’s giving poses. And also, are you speaking over me? But I think the Zara page is for the intelligent and want a good top to go to the club or could go to work. [gavel sound] All of us are still going to continue to go to the Zara landing page. So I think that is my case.
Josie Totah: Mm thank you. You’re out of time. Let’s give a few moments for the jury to deliberate. In the meantime. Please stare at each other rudely and think negative thoughts. [music break] [gavel sound] We, the jury, have decided that Ick wins, the Zara landing page is in fact the leading cause of death among people and is awful. [clapping] So thank you. Adjourned. Go home and don’t talk to me ever again. Bye. [gavel sound] [music break]
Josie Totah: Um, Well, that’s our show, you guys. We did it, again a second time and they didn’t fire us or send secret poison in our drinks and kill us.
Yasmine Hamady: You’ve been watching too much–
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah a little bit too much time True Crime.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: But we did it, and like we’re still doing it. It’s kind of insane.
Yasmine Hamady: Yay.
Josie Totah: Um, I’m really, really happy with our conversation today. I feel like I learned a lot. I feel like it’s taught me something. I hope it’s taught you guys something too, guys, thank you for listening. Yasmine, take it away.
Yasmine Hamady: Thank you all so much for listening to us. I really appreciate you being here live, laughing and loving with us.
Josie Totah: We sound like we’re like we work at like like a funeral home like we’ve just–
Yasmine Hamady: You know. Listen.
Josie Totah: We’ve sold, we’ve sold a casket to a family. We’re like, thank you for coming.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: What you shouldn’t do is be an awful person. But you know what great people do do, is rate our podcast five stars and follow Dare We Say on Instagram because you’re hot if you do so and maybe we’ll, maybe we’ll give you a kiss on the cheek.
Josie Totah: And also please rate us.
Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, rate us physically and emotionally.
Josie Totah: Ya truly.
Yasmine Hamady: Objectify us.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Remember when that was a trend? Why did we all just like commit to that? [gasp] Rate me, rate me.
Yasmine Hamady: Wait like my status– [banter]
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like this right now and I’ll rate you.
Yasmine Hamady: LMS for a rate and a tbh
Josie Totah: It’s insane, there needs to be another word for that word.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Well, like don’t rate us because like fuck the patriarchy but rate our podcast.
Josie Totah: No. [banter]
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Thank you so much. We need the validation.
Josie Totah: Um, anyway god bless every single one of you.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yes, god bless you.
Josie Totah: I’m a proud–
Yasmine Hamady: Except Marjorie Taylor Greene. You do not get this. You do not.
Josie Totah: Yasmine, why do you have to make everything be about politics.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: I love it. Keep doing it.
Yasmine Hamady: I’m one of those girls. Sorry.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Um, She’s just different. She’s quirky.
Yasmine Hamady: Why did she? Why does she bring up politics everywhere she goes?
Josie Totah: Drugs are bad. But Dare We Say is good.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yay.
Josie Totah: Peace out bitches.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: We love you so much, be nice to yourself. Bye kiddos.
Yasmine Hamady: Bye! Love you.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: Besitos.
Josie Totah: Dare We Say is a Crooked Media production.
Yasmine Hamady: Caroline Reston is our showrunner, producer and mommy and Ari Schwartz is our producer and show daddy. Fiona Pestana as our associate producer and Sandy Girard is the almighty executive producer.
Josie Totah: It’s hosted and produced by me, Josie Totah.
Yasmine Hamady: And me, Yasmine Hamady.
Alycia Pascual-Peña: And me, Alycia Pascual-Peńa. Vasilis Fotopoulos and Charlotte Landes, they are both our engineers. Brian Vasquez is our editor and theme music composer. Our video producers are Matt DeGroot, Narineh Melkonian, and Delon Villanueva and Mia Kellman.
Josie Totah: Lastly, thank you to Jordan Silver, Gabriela Leverette, Jesse McLean, Caroline Heywood, Shaina Hortsmann, Deisi Cruz, Danielle Jensen, and Ewa Okulate for marketing the show and making us look so damn good.
