In This Episode
Trump fires head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics over poor jobs report, a new tactic weaponizes state systems to crush opponents’ credit, and a new spotlight shines on self-taught artist Bill Traylor.
News
WATCH: ‘I think their numbers were wrong,’ Trump says after firing BLS head over jobs report
How people are weaponing state systems: ‘We file liens that crush their credit’
The Utterly Original Bill Traylor
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles, and Sharhonda, back together to talk about the under-reported news with regard to race, justice, culture, and equity. And don’t forget to follow us on Instagram at @PodSaveThePeople. Here we go. [music break]
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Another week of run-of-the-mill fascism, and here we are, and this is DeRay, at @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram and @MoonPulpit on Twitter.
Sharhonda Bossier: And this is Sharhonda Bossier at @BossierShay on Instagram and at @BossierS on Spill.
DeRay Mckesson: Well you know, it is sad that this week just felt like more of the same, but the same is really bad, which is just, you know, here we are. Um. Did you see the Liberty? Somebody keeps throwing dildos on the court. And finally, I think it’s happened twice. They just arrested the person who most recently threw dildos. And I’m like, y’all can’t let the women just play basketball. Like, you just got to be sexist and awful at the back. Who would even think of throwing a dildo on the court at a basketball game?
Myles E. Johnson: That seems like to be like a regular occurrence in sports because isn’t it like some place they throw bananas?
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm hmm.
Myles E. Johnson: Like there’s a lot of stuff that I hear about people throwing on courts in different sports that I’m like, that’s weird and seems like it would not be acceptable in any other way, but in sports. Another reason why I social distance from sports.
Sharhonda Bossier: [laugh] Yeah. I mean, I think what was interesting is to see the players be like, okay, yeah, it’s a jerk move. And on a more serious note, where is security? Like how are y’all even getting these into the arena? You know what I mean? Like people are supposedly going through really intense scrutiny and screening to get into these sporting arenas. And then they’re like, and somehow someone got dildos into a sporting arena twice and were able to throw them on the court. And, you know, WNBA players, particularly as they’ve gotten more popular have already named how you know, being highly visible women puts them at risk. Like they have stalkers, they have people who constantly are trying to invade their personal bubbles and space. And this feels like another way that the league continues to not think about protecting them and taking that seriously.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah I’m just like when I saw it the first time I was like oh this is an aberration and that’s really awful and it’ll never happen again. Then I saw it again and I’m like oh get these people out of here and the person is going to face a minimum one-year ban I’m, like, why not just straight-up lifetime ban you can’t come back don’t do that.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. Is there any part of you that thinks they thought it was funny? Like–
DeRay Mckesson: Oh, definitely thought it was funny.
Sharhonda Bossier: Like not as like a, you know, most of these women are lesbians, like, let me do this as like an act of like violence or, you now, having a little bit of fun at their expense, but actually at a like, they’re gonna think this is funny too. Like, what do we think the real motivation was? And I know it was two different people, two different incidents, but I’m just curious.
Myles E. Johnson: As somebody who has like no affection for sports, how I see it as like a kind of like a lay person looking at it is specifically, are these like cis men doing this?
DeRay Mckesson: They have not identified who the fans were.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. Like to me, the only way that I can really translate and interpret it was that, oh, no, they know that most women who are playing the WNBA feel are lesbians. I don’t even know if that’s true, but the stereotype is that they’re lesbians and this is a way to, um both make fun of their lesbian identity and also that kind of vague threat of masculine sexuality that men do to lesbians a lot of times. Like I know–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: –so many lesbian friends.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Who have had men tell them that they’ll change or you know just do things to make them feel uncomfortable. Um. And yeah, so that’s how I interpret that.
DeRay Mckesson: Just rough, like what is going on in the world? Um, also, did you see, so Colbert is getting canceled. We talk about Colbert. I’m still shocked that the Colbert show was not able to survive Trump. But did you, see Kamala is–
Myles E. Johnson: Were you watching the Colbert show?
DeRay Mckesson: I was on the Colbet show. So I watched it because I was on it.
Myles E. Johnson: Were you watching the Colbert–
DeRay Mckesson: Not the show, but the interviews, they were good interviews. [laughter] Did you watch Oprah every day? I didn’t watch Oprah every day, but Oprah–
Myles E. Johnson: Every day. Every day.
DeRay Mckesson: [laughing]
Sharhonda Bossier: Wow, wow!
Myles E. Johnson: [?] pm, every day. [indistinct banter]
DeRay Mckesson: I didn’t watch Ricky Lake every day, but I appreciated Ricky Lake.
Myles E. Johnson: Every day. I guess what I’m trying to say is, as somebody who’s a talk show host, talk show just enthusiast, like so I’m talking about like Donnie Hathue, Joan Rivers show that I wasn’t even conscious to see.
DeRay Mckesson: Wait, but did you watch any of the late night shows or are you just not a late night fan?
Myles E. Johnson: I did, yes.
DeRay Mckesson: Who? Who did you watch? Jay Leno?
Myles E. Johnson: I watched David Letterman. I watched Jay Leno. I remember when Jay Leno was fighting with um that one, when Jay Leno didn’t want to give up his seat for Conan O’Brien. No, late night. I love talk shows. So I felt it in the air, just like when the View if next year or the year after the View doesn’t is not on or whatever. That to me wouldn’t strike me. I can feel it in the air. So I’m still not. I still haven’t bit on the Colbert conspiracy as much as others have.
DeRay Mckesson: But okay, so that by withstanding, Kamala was on the Colbert show. And did you all get a chance to see the Kamala interview? I was surprised by her saying she didn’t necessarily want to go back in the system right now because the system is broken. And that is not language she’s ever used before. So I was like, oh, this is interesting. But what did you all think about, about her interview on Colbert?
Myles E. Johnson: Well, could you send back the niggas who you put in the system then? Can you fight them back now that you know the system is bad? [laugh] Maybe that’s about the time for dismantling it. It was weird to me that she still sounded kind of presidential and not in the way that is complimentary, but just still talking in circles, still really vague, still really not trying to maybe center herself or kind of push forward some type of moral or political clarity that isn’t just Trump is bad. I was just really surprised at how much non-growth had happened during this moment. And again, that kind of system quote I get how come it’s resonating with certain groups of people but also like that just feels so empty like if you have if you have a job that in any way puts people into a system you have now found is broken. I would think your answer would be oh my goodness I used to think this system was correct now I think the system is broken and now I’m going to be doing X, Y, and Z to correct how I have now in the ways that I participate in that system, which is you know asking a lot, but you know you’re a politician.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. I have seen people be really animated by the remark though, right? Which is, I think what you were saying, Myles, and that is like for a certain group of people, it felt like demonstrative of growth on her part, right. And an awakening on her part. And, uh, I think she is hoping that it energizes people as she thinks about what’s next for her, especially because she’s decided she doesn’t want to run for governor of California and has made that publicly clear. And so it feels really clear that she’s trying to figure out what might be next for her. And there is a void and a vacuum on the left. You know, she might be thinking she’s stepping into um and I think people are eager for someone to step into, especially if it won’t be the Obamas as we’ve talked about. So yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: I like Kamala, period. And I’m with Myles on this one that like, I was sort of surprised that it didn’t end with a like, well, here’s how I think about my responsibility differently. Cause you spent your entire, literally your entire adult life was inside the system. Like you, you know, you should, you should be able to say, and I’ve learned these things. Here’s a perspective. I worked at the local level, the state level. I was at the highest level. I was one of the nominee like it should be this really interesting critique of what is broken. But you just get this vague and you’re like, Kamala, this is, I would have rather her have not done that interview. And I think that the people that it animates will not be the people she needed to win. Like, I think it’s going to be the people who liked her anyway. I was really disappointed in this interview.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s what I was going to say to your response too Sharhonda, is that I was noticing what’s weird about the internet. Again I, we’ve come out with like a series called What’s Weird About the Internet. What’s Weird About the Internet today is the fact that, you know, if you get five million people, like Kamala, she lost five million, like it was millions of people who voted for her. So if those people have the internet, it could always seem like we’re approaching a blue wave. Like it can always give that illusion. So I’m not saying that those posts didn’t do numbers. I think I’m always looking at who’s commenting. That’s why I’m so, y’all catch me like showing people who um who’s commentating and stuff like that and like where they come from, because it’s important. And I don’t know if it’s really touching anything new. And it just, she does, to your point, DeRay. How I interpret it is she felt compromised. Like, she still feels compromised. And I think I was looking for that. And like you, I really like her. I really do. As a personality, I think that she’s fun. I think that she’s silly and zany. I think she could, I was totally in for Black, Miss Frizzle President. Like I saw it for her. [laughter] So I saw it, I was like, even how Zohran how Zohran kind of brands himself and he kind of uses his quirkiness, I saw pathways for her to do that as well and really help people. But it just seems as though she’s deeply compromised when it comes to speaking to certain things and I guess because of her deep involvement with the federal government. And it’s like, damn, she doesn’t feel like an outsider and for all, and she really should kind of still feel not as indoctrinated as she does. Does that make sense? Like she had a window where she could have felt like she was our home girl. And it just kind of closed with her not being able to say certain truths that felt like easy to say.
DeRay Mckesson: It still feels very focused group and you’re like, this is not the moment for no more polls.
Myles E. Johnson: Focus another group.
DeRay Mckesson: No more focus groups. [laughter[ Like what is going on? Um. Another thing that happened is did you see that the public broadcasting agency got defunded and the public money for NPR and PBS is going away? Not clear that the PBS and NPR are going anywhere because especially NPR doesn’t get a ton of money from the federal government, but does get some. But I did see a lot of conversation about PBS and NPR online, more than I anticipated actually, like because Trump has done so much that people have not talked about that I was pleasantly surprised that people were commenting on the PBS, NPR stuff. What did y’all think?
Sharhonda Bossier: I mean, I listen to NPR most mornings on my morning walk. It gives me a sense of like what most people who think of themselves as like moderate or, you know, left of center, um, kind of listen to how they get their news. I also am, you know, a monthly contributor to my local NPR station or public radio station, because I think that’s really important. I think local journalism is incredibly important and I, you know, listen to some of the podcasts that NPR produces that would not be possible without the backing and support of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, right, which is an entity that’s sunsetting. And I’m trying to figure out, as we’ve been talking a lot on this podcast, about sort of how the media is incentivized to spin certain stories. It did feel like, um sometimes in ways that were really frustrating to me, you know, NPR and a lot of its local affiliates really try to be objective, right, in their reporting. Um. And in some instances, chase down stories that were not going to be quote unquote “lucrative,” right? Um. But were really important in the public interest. And so I think people are starting to feel that. And I think people are starting to see the attacks on things that are, you know public institutions and institutions meant to serve the public good. Um. And so, yeah, I mean, I saw people being like, man, if you got beef with Mr. Rogers and Elmo, what’s going on? You know?
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, so I really, I love PBS, right? I love, love, love, love, love PBS. And PBS was, I got to work with them before I moved to where I am now. I got to work with PBS um briefly and it was just a really good experience. And it’s just, and I guess I only bring that up because it was interesting to meet people who worked at PBS. And it was the first time that the people who worked there felt so ethically like aligned with like the PBS mission, if that makes sense. A lot of times you’ll go into companies or into different publications or places, and the people who are like doing the work have a different energy than maybe the work that’s presented, and that just wasn’t the truth when it came to my experience at PBS. It makes me sad that this is happening because I think about how much public television has exposed me to when I think about um me first seeing um not strange loop. I saw uh Passing Strange on PBS. I was exposed to so much culture and art and theater because of PBS while I was in um rural and suburban Georgia. And if I did not have that access point, I would not be able to have developed. And it just makes me sad that this is being taken away. But the other part of me is very happy that it’s being taken away because I also think there’s a huge danger in something like NPR and PBS leaning on the government in the future because like I said many times before on this podcast, I think Trump is just the pre-shadow to a more intense fascist shadow that we’re going to be seeing in 30, 40 years. And I think figuring out pathways where this type of journalism is not doesn’t lean on government support is hard, but I think it’s ultimately going to be really, really, really necessary to do. And I know that’s dark, but that is like the totality of how I feel about this situation.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m interested, too, in how the left tells stories about this stuff, because this is something that a lot of people like, you know, we have a relationship with PBS stuff and and NPR and and I, you know, Trump, the Trump stuff’s so crazy. And then I’m like, what are the handful of messages that our people are telling people about the crazy? And I wish this was one of them. I don’t know if you all saw this is random and I just remembered it. But did you see that the presidential fitness test is coming back? Do you remember that from our–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes. Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: It definitely was when I was in middle school and high school, there was a presidential fitness tests. Myles, do you remember this?
Myles E. Johnson: You get a jump rope and stuff or like do jumping jacks?
Sharhonda Bossier: And run, and yeah, mm-hmm.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s when I started becoming anti-imperialist in that moment right then. [laughter] I said, this system is a sham.
DeRay Mckesson: So the presidential fitness assessment was, it ran from 1956 to 2013 and then was done. And Trump brought it back by executive order on July 31st. But the reason that I’m bringing it is because I still want there to be a cost for the Trump supporters. And he appointed Saquon Barkley, who is on the Philadelphia Eagles, to the like presidential Fitness Advisory Council.
Sharhonda Bossier: His golf buddy.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, right his, just his golf buddy who, and you know, he was not his friend, he just wanted to support, he just had reverence for the office. You know, I think about what Chrisette Michele lost.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Who we still don’t like anymore because of that. And I’m like, why is Saquon Barkley able to get away with pandering to the president? I want him invited to nothing else ever, like blacklist Saquan Barkley, but he just is a model to me of the other people. I just don’t know. I wish there was a cost for people, especially Black people who would not exist without Black culture supporting them, being allied with Trump, it just grosses me out.
Myles E. Johnson: I think this whole generation we’re seeing is the cause. You know? I was watching a scholar talk, oh, I wish I could remember it verbatim because it was so brilliant how um how she put it. But like essentially the icons we have now are the cause, like that is that is the price. Like the fact that we’re in a stage where like people who so collude with conservatism and minstrelsy invaded. And use it and exploit it. And the fact that those are the people who we are making rich and putting in places of public and cultural influence, like we’re reaping that cause. And it’s like, until our Black, like the average of our Black communal expectation lifts, the leaders we see and produce won’t lift and the things and the amount of corruption and weirdness we see won’t uh there will be no stealing to that with when you have people who are only in it for exploitation.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, and I think he’s gonna play the like, this is about wellness and fitness and kids being healthy, it’s not political, but then we should never let them forget how political they made Michelle Obama wanting to ensure that kids had access to healthy foods be, you know what I mean? They were like, not letting this not be an example of government overreach and to DeRay’s point, they should feel the same. Right?
Myles E. Johnson: How do you do anything with president in the name and say it’s not political? Like, I just cannot stand people who make up stuff and like sit in and, I sound like an old uncle, but piss on your leg and say, it’s raining. Like, it’s like, why are you going to tell me this is not political. You know that it’s political and you know that like, the weird thing about it is all this different stuff is aimed at like this white Nazism, this white, this kind of like ableism. Like, like we all hear the dog whistles. And if the whistles are short enough and calm enough that people don’t talk, that it stops us from just addressing what it is. It’s kind of reminding me of the um this the Sydney Sweeney like American Eagle jeans commercial BS that’s going around it’s like you say something so quiet that if somebody names that as oh you’re you’re doing something that’s that’s nazism or influencing white supremacy or whatever like if you’re if you say those kind of things you say it’s enough that people say no it’s not true and thhis is what this feels like too it’s why why lie y’all won. Why lie about it now?
DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere, more Pod Save the People is coming.
[AD BREAK]
Myles E. Johnson: I’m so curious about how the next election is going to be, like, rollercoaster style.
DeRay Mckesson: If there is an election, it’s like we just got to get to an election at this point.
Sharhonda Bossier: Oh baby, they gonna hold the no more elections party in that 200 million dollar ballroom. [laugh]
DeRay Mckesson: That they’re adding on to the White House. Well, I wanted to bring up Charlamagne. I don’t know if you saw, but on Truth Social, Trump had a rambling long post about Charlamagne, and um I think Charlamagne matters in this conversation because, if you remember, there was an ad that Trump used that featured Charlamagne that he put all over the South. He I mean he ran this ad everywhere that he could, and now he is at odds with Charlemanne, and I just wanted to bring it up and see what you all thought about it.
[clip of Lara Trump] No, you’ve been critical. You’ve had your your bones to pick with President Trump. If you took his name out of it and looked solely at what has happened, the policies and the things that have changed around the world and in our country over the first six months, how do you rate his presidency so far?
[clip of Charlamagne] Uh. I wouldn’t give it a good rating, you know simply–
[clip of Lara Trump] Why not?
[clip of Charlamagne] Simply because you know the least of us are still being impacted the worst. Like when you look at something like you know the big beautiful bill, that’s something that you know I’m going to benefit from because of the tax bracket that I am in, but you know there’s going to be so many people that are hurt by that bill. And you know anything that you know uh takes away Medicaid from people and is going to put people in a worse financial situation than you know they were previously in, I’m not for it. And you know he ran on that. Like he ran on you know the economy. He ran on saying that, you know, grocery prices are gonna be down, and you know he–
[clip of Lara Trump] That has happened.
[clip of Charlamagne] No.
[clip of Lara Trump] Inflation is trending down and by the way.
[clip of Charlamagne] No.
[clip of Lara Trump] Medicaid, we want to make sure that people who are not actual recipients or shouldn’t be getting Medicaid are off of Medicaid so it can actually benefit more people. There’s good stuff in that bill though you have the 2017 tax cuts that are made permanent and that that really is for everybody.
[clip of Charlamagne] Tax cuts for who though?
[clip of Lara Trump] But that’s for everyone everyone in this country is impacted by that. You also have things by the way like money going to school choice for parents all across this country there is a lot of good that I think will come out of the big beautiful But what about things like–
[clip of Charlamagne] Well right now people are hurting and I you know there was a there was a, he campaigned on immediate change day one change and we have–
[clip of Lara Trump] And you don’t think you’ve felt any change.
[clip of Charlamagne] No.
[clip of Lara Trump] People aren’t feeling change?
Sharhonda Bossier: This feels very akin to what we are seeing some of the white men on the right also do as they’re walking back their support from Trump. You know what I mean? It feels like exactly what we talked about a couple of weeks ago, like the tide is shifting, public opposition to what is happening is growing louder and people are thinking ultimately about their bottom line. And so I don’t know how you can tell if this is a sincere change of heart or not, but it definitely feels more calculating than that and much more. Trying to figure out how to remain relevant and in the public’s good graces than anything to me.
Myles E. Johnson: Are you talking about in Charlamagne?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, because like, who’s the white guy? Schultz, right? Andrew Schultz, right. It feels like, you know, that a lot of people did the, I think Trump is making points to, I think he’s a better candidate than Biden. I think we’ll fare better under Trump than Biden, and then watching what has happened. You know, even Charlamagne in the, you know, the interview with Lara Trump goes, well, I’m going to benefit because of the tax bracket I’m in, right? And it’s like, what I feel the pressure is, is not actually necessarily a disagreement with Trump’s policies or with where things are, but a recognition that you have to say something publicly to be on the record as having objected because it’s how you stay popular. It’s how people tune into you more than I think it’s about true opposition to the policies or even an evolution on your stance and support of him. That’s more my point. Was that clearer?
Myles E. Johnson: Yes. When it comes to Trump and Charlamagne, I don’t know if this matters. What I do think is interesting and literally I don’t know. I think there’s so many things that happen and so many things like that get fed and we’re in such a shallow kind of like soulless consumer society that something really mattering to culture. It’s hard to really put your finger on it sometimes if something really matters and who really matters, specifically a character like Charlamagne, the God. Obviously he ain’t matter too much because one of the few people Kamala sat down with in the demographic he was supposed to galvanize or talk to, he ain’t do none of that. So I’m not sure about it, but what I do think is interesting is I’m seeing the American government use Charlamagne in two different ways. So I did see the Democratic Party use Charlamagne as Black man whisperer, like, and somebody to translate, you know, the Democratic party’s goodness to Black people. We’ve seen that with Hillary Clinton as well. So I’m not saying that it was just Vice President Harris. And then I see the you know the Republican Party wing totally use Charlamagne as as both, uh, homeboy and as and as sensible Black man in that commercial, and then now as villain, you know? And I think more than anything, it’s a more zoned out view of what the American government and media will do to a Black person, which is whatever they want to do. It’s interesting to see somebody who’s not the most complex figure be used in such deeply political ways that to me feel almost inappropriate because his influence is not there, but it’s obvious that the American government thinks his influence is there. So we’re seeing it and it’s just interesting to see the same the same government use one Black figure to mean so much and I think for the average Black person he’s one of our like favorite clowns, but a clown.
Sharhonda Bossier: Do you think he’s unaware of that?
Myles E. Johnson: I think everybody who’s in American, uh who’s in the media system, entertainment system is pretty unaware, ignorant of it. I think that’s the way that, well, how come we see so much coonery and so much minstrelsy and so much bull [bleep] happen and so many missteps is because most people are totally, deeply unaware of the paradox that they exist in and what ends up being produced are these weird, weird, clunky moments of being overpowered by you know political interests. So in short, yes.
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know. I think that Charlamagne does have an audience. I think that he has lasted for a long time, whether people like him or not. And I think that that actually matters in the in the grand scheme in a moment where it’s like really hard to rise. People sort of get famous really quick and then they fizzle and he lasted. But what I will say that I think is really interesting about Trump is that Trump has to be in conversation with Black people. That’s like it’s whether it’s the Obama moment, whether it’s stealing Make America Great Again from Octavia Butler, whether it’s talking about Charlamagne and using him in ads, like there is this obsession with Black people that I think is just a part of what animates Trump and obviously what animates racism and white supremacy. The second thing is I think what Charlamagne would say is that he is, and I’ve not talked to him about this, but I think that he’s processing the news as it comes and like, you know, responding to the moment. Like, I think, that’s how he would describe himself. And that makes sense to me. I think that given the influence that he does have, or even if I say you’re right, Myles, the influence people believe he has. I do think I would love a more consistent political analysis from him because he says some things sometimes and you’re like, well, Trump is crazy and you gave him a little bit of credit here but it was like an overall crazy picture. Sort of not appreciating how people will always take him out of context. So I’m interested in this moment that Trump is fighting him. See what he says back. But Sharhonda, I think your point is fair as well is that we’re early in the Trump saga and he has been so crazy to so many people. That I do think that there are people who have to go on the record and at least say that is crazy.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: And I do you think that’s a part of what is happening here.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I just wanted to be clear that I think um I do want to be clear that I think he’s an entertainer, like I think that he’s a valuable entertainer and I don’t want to make it seem like when it comes to his influence in broadcasting or radio or being like an entertainment personality that there’s no value in audience there because A, obviously there is. But what I’m saying is I think there has not been enough analysis on what entertainers communicate to somebody to go vote.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: And I think that he’s not somebody who actually, if you actually knew Black people, he’s not somebody y’all would be using to make Black people go vote. And I think that is becoming clear. So that’s what I want to say, but he is great and a great Black man.
DeRay Mckesson: He said, let–
Myles E. Johnson: Why did I go from? I went from, I went from, now I’m just like lying. He’s an all right Black man and and I don’t know, he’s fine.
Sharhonda Bossier: He’s deeply problematic in so many ways, but yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere, more Pod Save the People is company.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: It really does feel like anybody’s being appointed to the government now. The person at the CDC, hey, not a doctor, don’t know what they doing. Jeanine Pirro, who Fox fired for being racist, is now the U.S. Attorney in D.C.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm-hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: I am just at a loss. I’m like, this is how you destroy the government from within. You don’t even need to pass policies because the people are so stupid that the thing will just never last.
Myles E. Johnson: And I was watching a couple of journalists talk about how some of these, and these were liberal left journalists, and they were talking about how a lot of these um people who are appointed, these are vanity appointings. And I think that kind of disturbed me a little bit more, is that there’s actually this system where the theater of the appointment happens, because you named this person, the you know, chair of this and head of this, and whatever, and everybody talks about RFK Jr. and how he’s incompetent. And then there’s, actually, the real fascists.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Who would bring a chill in the air if you heard their names or bring a chill in the air, if you knew their background who maybe are influencing what’s really going on and what’s really happening. And now that that has been pointed out to me and I see the pattern with that, now when I hear these other kind of more ridiculous appointings, it makes me wonder, hmm, is this a clown and there’s somebody else really running the show? Like.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: You know, and I always look at it as the Ronald McDonald. You know how like now all McDonald’s look like banks now and the Ronald McDonald is gone, but it’s like the Ronald McDonald is what enticed us to go to McDonald’s. And now that we’re addicted, McDonald’s can go like, ha ha, I’m just a bank who’s selling you stuff you’re addicted to. And I don’t got to give you kids toys because now you’re addicted.
Sharhonda Bossier: A play place. Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: That kind of feels like the trick that like Trump pulls where he’ll kind of get these social media or these just kind of like clowns or symbols or something that are ridiculous but still feel non-threatening. And then behind it is actually a very real, brutal fascist takeover happening underneath. People who we don’t even know their names because that’s how it’s designed.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, the ceremonial head of state role, you know, being like you are out here, glad handing, smiling, taking pictures, kissing babies, right. And to your point, like the evil elves and minions are actually in the background doing the really terrible work. I think what happens though, when you also have people who are in these leadership roles, who have no idea how things are supposed to go, it feels like there’s just much more room for chaos and mayhem, you know what I mean?
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
Sharhonda Bossier: Um, and I think that is the point of you know, installing people who don’t know anything, it’s like the people who really do know how the system works and how to deconstruct it are able to do that with even less oversight, right? With people asking even fewer questions. Um. And I think, you know we think that they are doing like the active sign off and in some ways the passive incompetence might be far more dangerous.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s hard to legislate that. And all the Democrats aren’t even united, opposing all the appointments. You’re like, some of the Democrats are [?] it. Fetterman is voting for some of these people. You’re, like, what is going on? I mean, he got to go. I might go and volunteer on whoever’s running against him. Just because, like that man got to get out of there. Like, what is? This is nuts. But I’m going to go to my news because it also talks about appointments in some ways. You probably saw that the Bureau of Labor Statistics released the jobs report, and it shows that there’s not a lot of growth. So it’s the softest three months of job creation since 2010, if you exclude 2020, which was the pandemic, obviously. So bad jobs report, things were down, like it’s all across bad jobs report. Trump is screwing over the economy, that’s the takeaway. But my news is not about the jobs report. My news is about the fact that he is now firing the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics because he’s like, the jobs report numbers are bad. The guy got to go and you’re like, well what?
Sharhonda Bossier: [laugh] The numbers guy! Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: He literally is like that the report was rigged and you’re like, what? And just, so we’re gonna get a new head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics that, you know, you’ll never be able to trust any number that comes out of that office, at least for the next four years. Obviously, you know, people are speaking out against this cause this makes no sense, but that’s crazy. Yeah, I just brought it cause I’m like, wow, I don’t even know. I don’t even know what to do when you just fire the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and you just say that the numbers were rigged. And what he said was, I have directed my team to fire this Biden political appointee immediately. Important numbers like this must be fair and accurate. They can’t be manipulated for political purposes. The economy is booming under Trump, despite a Fed that also plays games, this time with interest rates. Yeah, I just had to bring it because I’m floored.
Sharhonda Bossier: I felt like no one else was paying attention in elementary school when we read, the emperor has no clothes, you know, like this is truly, truly wild. And I think DeRay to your point undermines our trust and confidence in our institutions and in the people who are charged with being the leaders of those institutions, right? Like it’s important that people who were setting policy have an accurate picture of like what’s actually happening. But I think we are watching people receive instructions on how to be part of the propaganda machine. Um. And there it’s very public, it’s very transparent, it’s very clear. And so I don’t know what policy makers are thinking in how to push back, but this is I think a real moment for bipartisan leadership. And that feels like a really naive thing to even hope for in this moment. You know, we got to be able to say we actually have to know truthfully what’s happening in the economy.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, to your point, the emperor has no clothes moment. I’m kind of like double-sided with that because I think the people understand the emperor have no clothes. I think they want a naked empire. Like, I think now that we see how internet, and we see so clearly what people do when they get the raw resources of power at their own disposal, no matter at what degree. And I think the internet is such a interesting way to do to see that. So I think that ah there’s this like uh New York magazine cover where after Trump got elected and you see all these kids in this like fancy, I don’t know, I guess it was like an opera house celebrating like MAGA style and stuff. And I remember this person’s name, Taylor Lorenz. So what Taylor Lorenz brought up was the cheapness of the clothes, right? And she talks about how there’s this old money esthetic happening, but there’s like this cheapness when it comes to the clothes and the actual landing of the esthetic. And when I hear Trump firing somebody because they didn’t say the numbers that they wanted, it kind of reminds me that, oh, this is really all about just keeping the illusion erect. It’s really not about getting to the goal. It’s about the cultural power. You know, like, again, Taylor Lorenz just really gets it when it comes to how much this presidency is about people who want cultural power, meaning the conversations we see on social media, meaning the American Eagle jeans and stuff like that. Like it’s so much about all of that stuff more than it’s about what the economy says or what the analysis reads. The analysis either needs to play by the rules and lie and pretend this is 1985 or we’ll find somebody who can lie, you know? And that to me is what’s more disturbing is that not that the emperor wants to wear no clothes until [?] say he has a robe on, it’s that there’s so many citizens who want to do that. Who want to do that, not being tricked, who desire that kind of illusion, even if it’s just an illusion. It’s pathetic.
DeRay Mckesson: Like what?
Myles E. Johnson: Capital P pathetic. So DeRay, the statistic that you brought up about the jobs, there not being as much job creation. As you were saying that, it was also pairing with me that that data report around like 300,000 Black women since President Trump’s election have left the job force. So that statistic paired with that one just feels really damning and brutal. So I just wanted to like bring out that we are still being hit the hardest when it comes to this stupid cultural war we find ourselves in.
DeRay Mckesson: Absolutely. [music break] Don’t go anywhere more Pod Save the People is coming.
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Sharhonda Bossier: My news this week is sort of in the same vein of feeling like we’re fighting on multiple fronts. I feel like we talked a couple of weeks ago about at least my realization that sometimes we’re getting hit in ways that we don’t even anticipate or know to anticipate. Um. And so my story is about a set of people who have started to file liens that crush the credit of their political opponents, right? So the article I shared, begins with an anecdote about a class where a woman is teaching people how to do that. And she says, this is how we level the playing field. We don’t sue government officials, we file liens, right? And so what’s happening is you have people who don’t like the positions that government officials take and they’re like, well, fine, I’ll just claim you owe me money or that your business scammed me or something or other, right. And so when people go, if you, to like work with you or to pull your credit history. In some instances, it can look like you’re engaged in like these protracted, very expensive legal battles. And in most states, when these kinds of claims are filed against you, the state doesn’t even notify you. So you could have these claims filed against you and be totally unaware. And it’s just another way that the right is figuring out how to put pressure on elected officials and other public officials that they disagree with, right, and it can cost the person, you know, against whom the lien was filed, a lot of money and a lot of time to fight it and to try and get it removed, which is a distraction from their work and a distraction from what I think most of us would hope that public officials like judges would be focused on, right? And so I just wanted to bring it to the pod because I was like, man, this is another like arrow in their quiver that I just was unaware of and think that people should know that this is how people are also choosing to waste like public resources and clog up our courts and other oversight bodies. So yeah, wanted to bring it here for discussion.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s also another way to ensure that there is a really intense, um, class divide in who can become an elected official.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: Because you make it so that people who just can’t afford lawyers, for instance, like literally are just afraid it’s already cost too much money to run.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: But at least that’s my campaign. It’s not my personal money.
Sharhonda Bossier: Right.
DeRay Mckesson: But you start filing this against me. And it makes it so, that like, I will never be able to make money again. Or I like, that’s what it’ll feel like. Like I personally will be liable for all these things just because you don’t like my vote or didn’t like this.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: And that just feels crazy. So when you brought this, I was like, I, A,, had never heard of this. And I certainly didn’t know there were classes teaching people. Like what?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. [laugh]
DeRay Mckesson: And it’s such a perversion of a system that was meant to help people, which is why, you know, the article talks about a $5 filing fee. That makes sense. Is that somebody’s like you know, civilly damaging you. You want to file a complaint or like levy a charge. You shouldn’t have to spend a million dollars to do it. That is like the spirit behind the ease with which you can do this is rooted in allowing people of all classes to participate in the legal process to seek redress. And then when it gets used like this, you’re like, this is just such a perversion of the system. I’m happy that somebody clearly is paying attention to it so that we can potentially fight against it.
Myles E. Johnson: Lean back.
DeRay Mckesson: Let’s go. That was good. That was good.
Myles E. Johnson: So that’s my first comeback to that was like, okay, well, if they fighting like that, are we fighting just as nasty? But it’s also, there’s more money on the right. So if you start playing those types of games with people on the right, they will make your life a personal, impoverished hell. I mean, look around. It’s already doing it for so many people anyway, through policies. So I’m sure there’s a way that we couldn’t necessarily like financially target Republicans in this in the same way, because their resources will be bottomless to do that [?]. I just think when it comes to how dedicated some people are around limiting other people’s rights. Again, very apocalyptic, very doomer warning coming, but it just makes me feel like, oh, like, there is no other choice, but for you to have to like experience the reality that you’re voting for. Am I making sense? Like to me, like, I think how how we always thought about political parties was like, okay, conservative, liberal, and maybe there’s like a balance between it. But it just seems though, there’s this conservative fascist reality that so many people are willing to do so many diverse things to get, that it just is a matter of time until that thing happens. And moments like this, I’m just like, child, are we just supposed to just get on a plane and leave and let it happen to them and say, I told you so? Because like that amount of dedication, you know, like it’s not impulsive. It takes, it’s a process. $5 can still get you something at McDonald’s. Like it’s just a such a process in order to make sure somebody doesn’t have rights. It just, it’s disturbing to me. And I’m like, well, maybe let me stop. But yeah, it just, that part is disturbing to me. So I saw this artist going viral again on social media, and I thought to myself, I think I know this already, but because of how social media and digital media get shared. It’s, A, hard to know. And then also I forget stuff. I don’t know about y’all, but I feel like I know more facts than I’ve ever known before. I know more information than I’ve never known before, but sometimes there’s little things that will just kind of leave my brain because it’s not currently there because I’m just always consuming something in media. And now that we have books in the internet and YouTube, my brain is a little bit on overload. But I was glad to see this news story become new again, because it’s really, really interesting to me. So the story’s from the New Yorker. It’s called the Utterly Original Bill Traylor. So Bill Traylor, he was a slave Black man who became a painter and he became known once he got rediscovered in about the 1940s. That’s one of the more significant painters for obvious reasons. His paintings are these kind of expressionist, surrealist takes on an enslaved person’s life at the time. So you have these really extorted bodies. You have colors being used in a way that feels both young and youthful, but also as like, like horror. There’s like a little bit of eeriness that is in the paintings. And then also, what’s interesting is you know how in our cartoons, when you want a bad person to look bad, or if you want a, a bad or somebody who is like the villain to look horrible, there’s certain exaggerations that you use. In Bill Traylor’s work, you can kind of see the shadows of that. You can see, oh, I want to describe somebody not necessarily in how they are, but how they feel to me. And that feels specifically when we think about like folk art and expressionist art, that feels like such a cool breakthrough to be able to witness. And also it lets you know that even in the most tumultuous of situations, you would still find Black people dedicating themselves to expressing themselves, dedicating themselves to articulating their realities. And it reaffirms how important that is because we’re in a moment where there’s so much art being made or so or really so much content being created, right? And I think that sometimes we can lose that what we really should be trying to communicate with others is the personal realities, the horrors and the miracles of our own life, and not necessarily curated things that do good for a Google search, but things that really express something unique to us. And something about Bill Traylor having the vision within himself to articulate his life like that just really inspired me. And as y’all know, for the last few weeks, I’ve been looking for things that inspire me and that really did it, too. Unfortunately, I got to look all the way to chattel slavery. [laugh] I’m like, oh, that was pretty bad. What were you girls doing for fun then? Because I’m sure it will alleviate it, but I just thought this work was really good. I thought his story was really interesting. The story in The New Yorker is really interesting. Again, I’ve seen um his work go viral again on a few accounts that I follow. So I love these kind of like cycles of interest that I see too, where if you didn’t catch it, maybe when I discovered it in 2018, then it’s cycling its way back in. And I remember Frida Kahlo and Nina Simone had a moment at a year or two, and now we don’t speak about them anymore, but it’s cool to see people make new documentaries and new content about people. That’s just a cool thing that I’ve seen happen in the digital landscape. But yeah, that’s my news. Did y’all already know about him? And then also I wanna ask as a follow-up to this news, what is something artistic or creative that you do for yourself that helps you navigate your life?
Sharhonda Bossier: Okay, I did not know about him. I was glad to see this and I have been really grateful for the theme Myles of the last few weeks of your news stories of like preserving and elevating and highlighting Black people, our histories, our creativity, our art and our stories. So thank you again for bringing this. To your question of like what I do. I’ve actually been really in search of a new creative practice. I’ve been feeling kind of really untethered from that part of myself for a long while and have been trying to figure out what that could or should be for me. At various points in my life it’s been writing, it’s been cooking, and I actually don’t share my writing. It’s been like for myself, you know, and so trying to get back to something that feels a little bit creative. Cooking has been it again. I love to cook and I love, what I love about cooking is like it’s also an invitation to be in community with other people. As I like try new things. And so that has felt good over the last, honestly, just last few weeks. It has not been a sustained practice for a long time recently. But yeah, was grateful for you bringing this story as a reminder and some perspective. And really as a reminded that we’ve always resisted and we’ve also centered our own humanity and haven’t needed other people to do it for us.
DeRay Mckesson: Um, I, I completely underestimated how long it takes to make these things. So in the article, they talk about how it took the, uh, the curator at the Smithsonian seven years preparing for this retrospective. I’m like, wow, that is so nuts. But now hadn’t heard of the artist and to think that he was born a slave is just so wild. You’re like. So I’m super interested in his art journey. Like, what does it even mean to become an artist when you were property as a kid and, you know, the access to paper and everything is just much harder. And you still were, you know, pretty prolific, especially for the time period in which you made art, which is really cool. So, you know, as we come up on the 100 years of Black History Month, these are the people that I hope that we resurface for everybody. [music break] Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. And don’t forget to follow us at @PodSavethePeople and @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we will see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Charlotte Landes, executive produced by me, and special thanks to our weekly contributors, Myles E. Johnson and Sharhonda Bossier. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
