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The first wave of Mandelson files have been published. We all wanted to know what Keir Starmer knew, and when he knew it. Now we can see it in black and white.

And as it turns out – Starmer was warned there was a “general reputational risk” over Mandelson’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein ahead of his confirmation as US ambassador. Nish and Coco make sense of this

perilous moment for the PM.

Then critical theorist and viral creator Louisa Munch helps us make sense of the government’s new social cohesion strategy. But is tackling extremism and yet more surveillance the answer to fraying social ties?

Plus – as Iran names its new supreme leader oil prices skyrocket – for a PM obsessed with the cost of living, this is shaping up to be a bit of a nightmare.

Remember to send your questions in for Nish and Coco to psuk@reducedlistening.co.uk and they’ll spill the tea!

CHECK OUT THESE DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS 

AURA FRAMES: https://www.auraframes.com Code: PSTUK

BABBEL: https://www.babbel.com/PSUK

GUESTS 

Louisa Munch, Critical Theorist
Minnie Rahman, CEO Praxis

USEFUL LINKS

“Nish, Don’t Kill My Vibe” + Q&A with James Acaster at The Ritzy, Brixton – 18th March
https://picturehouses.com/movie-details/000/HO00017471/nish-kumar-nish-don-t-kill-my-vibe-q-a?filter=

Open letter opposing planned changes to the immigration settlement routes: https://act.praxis.org.uk/open-letter-earned-settlement

CREDITS

Darren Jones MP, Cabinet Office minister – Parliament TV

Steve Reed MP, Communities Secretary – Parliament TV

Mike Tapp MP, Migration minister – Parliament TV

Minnie Rahman, Praxis CEO

Frederik Pleitgen, CNN International Senior Correspondent – CNN

Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.
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TRANSCRIPT

Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I’m Nish Kumar.

Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan, it’s great to have you back, Nish.

Nish Kumar Yeah, I’ve been on holiday and I’ve immediately had a ice cold glass of water poured directly over my head as the first of the revelations coming out of the Mandelson files has appeared. So the Mandelsohn files are the emails and conversations about Peter Mandelson’s appointment as the U.S. Ambassador and there have been some spicy revelations already.

Coco Khan People talk about the holiday blues or the post-holiday blues, what is it when it’s this dark? It’s not navy, it’s the darker shade of something.

Nish Kumar Yeah, it’s Midnight Blue. It’s real, yeah.

Coco Khan Later we’re joined by the critical theorist Louisa Munch to dig into the government’s new social cohesion strategy, which doesn’t quite add up.

Nish Kumar And of course, we’ll get to a run, but first… We all wanted to know what Keir Starmer knew and when he knew it. Now we can see it all in black and white. A warning was made about Peter Mandelson’s ongoing relationship with the convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein. It was laid out in a vetting document, which the prime minister saw before Mandelson became the UK’s ambassador to the US.

Coco Khan It’s just one of the revelations from the official collection of documents about the process followed when Lord Mandelson got one of biggest jobs in government. The Prime Minister was essentially forced into releasing the documents by Parliament and the release was announced in the Commons by the Cabinet Office Minister Darren Jones.

Clip Today I can confirm that we are releasing a first tranche of documents which have been laid in the House in advance of this statement and are now published on GOV.UK for the public.

Nish Kumar So let’s get into it. And first up, we have to look at this vetting document. Amazingly, the findings start with a focus on Mandelson’s financial and business interests before getting into anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein.

Coco Khan Know people talk about burying the lead I think if it was me I’m just saying I might have started somewhere else but when it does get there it is very clear that the two men remained in contact even after Epstein’s conviction for procuring a child for sex Keir Starmer was also told that Maddison reportedly stayed at Epstein home while the financier was in prison in 2009 so let’s just make that clear Starmer knew that they were pals

Nish Kumar Now look, before we go any further, we should point out the document also includes Mandelson’s denial of a professional or business relationship with Epstein and he has previously denied any wrongdoing. Mandelson was arrested by the police on suspicion of misconduct in public office in February.

Coco Khan The document also mentions a meeting that Epstein had with Tony Blair, which was facilitated by Mandelson, and amazingly, the conclusion for this section of the document is that there was only a general reputational risk. So Darren Jones admitted that the documents showed that the vetting process hadn’t really been good enough. He announced measures to improve the process and to remove any payoffs for ministers who were found to have breached the ministerial code of conduct.

Nish Kumar Look, just in case anyone needs a quick summary on this, Mandelson was obviously a key figure within New Labour. He was the business secretary from 2008 to 2010. He was appointed as the UK ambassador to the US in 2024 and was sacked in September 2025 when the Epstein file’s revelations revealed the depth of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. He resigned from the Labour Party after another tranche of files were released. In terms of the current government, the important questions are, what did Simon Owen, when did he know it? As we’ve covered, he was made aware that Mandelson continued to have a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Again, we were all sort of tying ourselves in knots over this. Everybody was aware of this. As in people who had access to the internet were aware this. There are various people who at the time were posting the photograph of Mandelson with Epstein in a kitchen that was just available and in the public domain. So I mean, it does feel a bit strange that we’re having to have this conversation when in reality, anyone with an internet connection was aware that Mandelson had persisted in pursuing a personal friendship with a man who had been found guilty of child sex offenses. There was internal government disquiet about this appointment as well. So Jonathan Powell, who’s the National Security Advisor, when he was informed of this, he raised his concerns with Stama’s Chief of Staff Morgan McSweeney. He was then told that those concerns were addressed. Now, in the revelations that have come out today, Powell is revealed to have called the decision unusual and weirdly rushed. And a letter from the Prime Minister’s Principal private secretary to Stammer about the decision to appoint Mandelson said. Your chief of staff has discussed Peter’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which we will go through with you.” There is this strange situation that we’re finding ourselves in where we’re being surprised by revelations that we already fucking knew in the first place.

Coco Khan Right. But I do think it is important that we see all of this because not that we buy the idea of ignorance. I mean, of course we don’t. Like you’ve said, Nish, everybody knew about it. I saw an interview with Ian Hislop recently and they were publishing stuff about it from 2009. So that’s well over a decade of this stuff circulating and it’s very serious, right? You would expect it only needed one article for you to really think about it, but this was quite known. But the point is, is that There were several instances. Forced Amr to exercise some caution and he did it, not just the vetting document. You know, there was people around him telling him, hang on a minute, this is, this is strange. And so it does speak to a lack of judgment, doesn’t it? And that’s putting it kindly.

Nish Kumar It is very serious for Keir Starmer because of the public offering he has been making to the country over the course of the last general election campaign and then once he’s taken up his job as prime minister. Because part of his public offering is that he is the former prosecutions guy, he is the lawyer, he’s the person who follows every rule to a T and he’s also the person hoot. Is a distinct break with the last kind of half decade of rolling scandals and incompetence from the conservative government. And so I think this matters. I mean, this matters hugely anyway, because it reveals a lot about the ways that decisions are made at the very heart of our government. But I think it matters more for Keir Starmer than maybe a different prime minister. I don’t know how you feel about that, Coco.

Coco Khan I always find it hard to think about the brand of Keir Starmer, but he does have a brand and certainly one of it was that he was the lawyer, right? He’s going to do things right. I think what you were saying about what this reveals, it certainly reveals how government is working. It reveals power, the kind of crude strength of power, and I think that feeling is really destroying our faith in democracy, our faith in institutions. Are faith in each other. It’s so corrosive and you would expect Starmer to understand that.

Nish Kumar And just to restate, Peter Mandelson has always denied any wrongdoing. He’s apologized to Epstein’s victims and has described his relationship with the convicted sex offender as a most terrible mistake. It’s also worth noting in terms of Mandelson’s own actual comments on this issue. As part of the revelations we found out today, there has been an email discussing what his compensation was going to be. Um, so he’s actually received 75,000 pounds in compensation for being, uh, removed as the U S ambassador, the ambassador to the U. S. I should say extraordinarily. We found out today that he asked for 547,000, which is essentially what he would have earned if he’d seen out the rest of his four year contract. The 75 K he has received, uh is a pretty nauseatingly high figure, but made worse when he realized that 34,000 was a discretionary payment. On top of the £40,000 that he was legally entitled to. And that does sting somewhat.

Coco Khan Yeah, of course. And you know, actually, I happened to catch a glimpse of Darren Jones trying to defend this in Commons. And he said, and I’m paraphrasing, but he essentially said, look, Mandelson was a civil servant. So he was entitled to something. And also he kind of said he would sue us. And this was the settlement. So this was actually good given what he could have done. You know, all this whole story of power, who has it and who doesn’t have it. And actually, I do wonder if even though this whole episode is nowhere near drawing to a close anyway. I do fear that it’s not going to give us a sense of reconciliation or healing. I think actually the crater is only going to get wider.

Nish Kumar We’ll see more stuff coming out as more and more documents and information are released. I think in the short term, this furthers the reputational damage that’s already been done to Keir Starmer. I think this poses a really serious question about his judgment. I think the only thing at the moment that’s keeping him in a job is the lack of willingness for anyone within the Labour Party to step up to try and replace him. I think there’s just an absence of candidates. I think at this point now, he is essentially on borrowed time.

Coco Khan So, as we said, this national conversation that we’re having about all of this is ongoing. And even just in terms of this documents drop, there’s more to come. There’s thought to be tens of thousands and all. It will include WhatsApp messages between Mandelson and Labour politicians. There’ll be documents which the police have asked the government to withhold until their investigation is complete. And this whole process is going to take some time. So look, we will be keeping an eye on it and following it. And as a reminder, the many victims of Jeffrey Epstein are still waiting for justice. This process is a small part of that, but in the US there’s a real lack of action by investigators.

Nish Kumar After the break, we are in the studio with the critical theorist and big brain on social media, Louisa Munch, to understand why the government thinks social cohesion can be built on fostering suspicion between immigrants and white people. As per usual, we got more of that coming up after the break. Before we throw to the break, I just wanted to quickly flag something that I forgot to plug. If you live in London or are able to get to London on Wednesday the 18th of March, that is next Wednesday as we record, I am screening my stand-up special, Nish Don’t Kill My Vibe, on the cinema screen at the Ritzy in Brixton. Which I am very, very excited about. And so there’ll be a full screening of the thing. It’s the first time anybody’s seen it, apart from me and my friends, Alan Stu, who direct and edit it. And let me tell you, it is a particular form of torture to have to watch yourself on a screen over and over again, for hours at a time. It is a real, people should use it as an information extraction scheme by various secret services. It is bad stuff. I’m ba- I’m very proud of the special and you can watch it at the cinema on the 18th of March and afterwards there will be a Q&A conducted by, off-menu zone, James Jimmy Acaster. He will be interrogating me in a sort of Frost Nixon for elder millennial comedy fans.

Coco Khan [AD]

Nish Kumar So the government’s new social cohesion strategy is promising a lot, challenging hate, building community spirit, even improving high streets. But how ministers plan to get there is maybe a bit less clear. We’ll let them get away with the absolutely stupid name, protecting what matters. But in the report, there are also some pretty contradictory points being made.

Coco Khan Right, so for example, the report says that integration is a two-way street, but then it only really lists ways that immigrants can make more of an effort. Or the quote from the head of MI5 saying that labels like Islamists and extreme right-wing don’t properly reflect the array of beliefs and ideologies out there, but then the report continues to use those terms.

Nish Kumar There’s definitely some positive stuff in there. Money for left behind communities, investment in youth and sport facilities, and actual steps to help prevent the spread of hate and discrimination. But does it do enough? Here’s the community secretary, Steve Reid, announcing the government’s plans to the Commons.

Clip Britain has faced global crises at many moments in our history. And we got through them by staying strong and united. Today, we navigate new threats to our communities and families. And we must stand together once again against those who seek to divide and weaken us.

Coco Khan So there’s a lot to work through and try to understand. So it’s great to be joined by the critical theorist, Louisa Munch. She’s all about dissecting the systems we live in and how they are affecting our lives, which she does on Instagram, urging her many, many thousands of followers to engage with the news with the skills usually kept university departments. Louisa, welcome to Pod Save the UK.

Louisa Munch Thank you! It’s nice to be here.

Nish Kumar What a title. Critical Theorists. That’s a hell of a job title.

Louisa Munch I don’t know if that’s what my university would call me a teacher, but it sounds a bit more academic.

Coco Khan Your university is my old university, you teach at Warwick. Yeah, that’s where I went. And a part of me was like, I wonder if we could have some, you know, ice breaking Warwick chat. And then I remember that all my references are so old and it will out me. So we’re just not we’re just going to move on and say, I’m so glad you’re here to teach the young Cocos of the future how to think critically. Anyway, let’s start with some of the inconsistencies in this report. So. I mean, one of the things that stood out to me, and I just find incredibly frustrating all the time, is about how integration is a one-way street. It’s always about how immigrants should act rather than how whole communities should treat each other with respect. Why do you think it’s so hard for politicians to get this seemingly simple thing right?

Louisa Munch Yeah, well, it seems that they’re treating these communities through suspicion and surveillance. And it sounds more like a terrorism framework, anti-terrorism framework, than it does like about community cohesion and things. And there are like a few good things like a look and increasing like the spending on community centers and sports facilities and things like that. But generally it’s about like calling out people that you’re suspicious of and. That is not going to build bridges. That’s just going to make people feel even more hostile towards each other. And like you said, it’s always a one way street. It’s these people need to adhere to British values, but what even our British values I think doesn’t really lay that out either. So I think if you’re going to have a community cohesion and a lot of European countries do do this quite well. Like they do have community centers. They do have like English language or whatever the language is, like centers and programs and things like that. But it’s about a community coming together, not about people being suspicious of other people or, you know, like reporting on suspicious behavior and things like that. So that’s like the most worrying thing about it, I think.

Coco Khan Yeah, exactly. It doesn’t feel like, you know, when you start a new job and they talk about onboarding, that seems to be the du jour title now.

Nish Kumar They’re onboarding us for the United Kingdom.

Coco Khan If you’re talking about on-boarding and it’s all like, here’s the toilets, this is how we do things, it’s not like, by the way, don’t commit crime. I feel like they poison the well when they introduce counter-terrorism stuff into a strategy around social cohesion. Implied in that is the mistrust, right? So then you can’t even begin to build communities if there’s this distrust.

Nish Kumar Listen, in terms of the specifics of the report, English language proficiency is going to be a requirement for new arrivals. It’s going to review of English lesson provision to identify best practices and explore new methods like digital delivery. The conclusions of that will be due in autumn 2026. There’s been a 60% cut in funding between 2008 and 2018 for exactly these services, which led to a 40% reduction in participation by migrants. You know, it feels like every week on the show. Looking for the black box recorder in the plane crash of the British government between the years 2010 and 2024. There’s so much of it that kind of comes back to funding cuts and all this kind of stuff. But also a lot of this stuff is obviously policy based and can be very dry. It’s also for a lot us quite sort of personal. My grandmother very sadly passed away earlier this it. And she moved to this country in 1973. And there were no sort of requirements on language proficiency she sort of integrated because she worked in a light bulb factory and like yes that integration was a points complicated her name was Padma P-A-D-M-A and she did receive a birthday card addressed to Batman from one of her co-workers at the light That’s right

Coco Khan Because she fights crime?

Nish Kumar Yeah. I have no idea. They just heard the name Padma and we’re just like, obviously this woman’s name is Batman Cutty. Like, but as clumsy as that is, that is what integration looks like. And it’s, it’s complicated and difficult and requires compromise from both sides. But that is quite a complicated and diffuse thing. Louisa, how do you translate that into? Policy, that sort of fumbling and at points complicated and at times ham-fisted approach that everyone has to take when you integrate into a community.

Louisa Munch Well, I think this policy is not very critical in the sense that it doesn’t get to the crux or the root of the issues that we see in communities at the minute. And it doesn’ seem to understand or tackle the problem of how gutted the communities have been. And like my dad, he’s from Denmark, hence the name. And he was the same. He came to this country in the 1980s, I thing. And He found communities in football clubs, in places that now have been so financialized that you have to, well, pay to get in, or there’s just, there aren’t those spaces available at all. My mum worked for Connections, which was obviously like a youth support program that now no longer has funding, she lost a job in the end. But something like this, like these policies are not going to have the impact. That we really need in terms of this huge cultural shift that needs to happen if we’re going to feel everybody’s going to be safe in this country. And when the language is all about safety and not about stability and inclusion, it’s all about exclusion.

Coco Khan The speak English thing, because that’s the racist insult that is always thrown at people who are from different countries. They don’t even speak English. I don’t know if you ever had this experience, but when I was growing up, my mum came to this country in the 70s, she speaks fluent English. We all speak English as our first language at home. My mum even now dreams in English. Like it’s like, she speaks English. But when I was a teenager, I would sometimes do phone calls for my mum to bureaucrats, wherever it might be, the council, whoever it might, because she was like, if they hear my accent, they’re going to tell me I’m stupid. If they hear, my accent they’re gonna treat me badly. Whereas if it was always quite strange, I’d phone them, I’ll be like, hello, right, it’s me, I’m an adult woman.

Louisa Munch Should’ve tried a Northern accent.

Coco Khan Yes! And so, you know, like, I’m sort of conflicted because on the one hand, I think, I think we can all agree that of course, speaking the shared language of the nation you’re in is really important and great and wonderful. On the other hand, You know, there’s been all this cuts to English language funding. It’s enormously oversubscribed. So on the one hand, it’s like, well, we’re going to heck to people for not learning the language, but going to make it really hard to not learn the language. And I know that Labour’s now saying they are going to look into rolling it out with their tech services or whatever, which is obviously welcome. But to what extent is fundamentally this policy actually just appealing to those people who want to say they don’t speak English. Do you know what I mean? Like, is it appeasement or is it a real policy? What do you think, Louisa?

Louisa Munch Well, yeah, like you said, it is important that people can speak the language. But if you look at what I always think about Benidorm, I don’t know if either of you have been to Benidorm.

Coco Khan Not yet, but I will go.

Nish Kumar It’s one of the least integrated places I’ve ever been in my entire life. It actually, I will say, Louisa, it did sort of have a radicalizing effect on me. After I came back from Benidorm, I genuinely was like, I never ever want to hear, they come over here and they don’t even learn the language from an English person. After I went to Benid… It blew my goddamn mind. It’s basically England in Spain. Like, it’s a sort of town that like, it sort of… It’s a weird like. White people Wakanda in the middle of Spain, like it’s a really surprising.

Louisa Munch Black people Wakanda.

Nish Kumar I just got back from a holiday in Mexico City, which was amazing, unbelievable, one of the best places I’ve been. But people kept saying, well, part of the culture is changing because more Americans are coming here on digital nomad visas. And there’s this idea that people are moving to places like Lisbon and Mexico City because they can work from anywhere and they get called digital nomads. And all I could think was, man, people will avoid anything as long as they don’t have to call white people immigrants. You’re not a digital nomad, you’re a computer immigrant, that’s all you are. You’re a computer immigrant.

Louisa Munch That’s all it is. This is the thing, like we can’t just say we have these policies in place without changing the language in the media that we refer to, you know, immigrants or migrants. And I don’t even like the word immigrants to be fair. Like, impose, like invade, like this kind of, the prefix I think is unnecessary. They’re migrants, people move around. And I Don’t see why we have such this like hostility in the language that we use around. And the thing is with the history of migration. Look at the British Empire. It’s just so ironic that we can sit here and talk about why other people who generally know English, they’ve come from places where England or Britain have gone and said, you need to learn English because this is the language of education, this is language of prosperity, but you’re not allowed to come to the country and work. You’re not allowed to come to the actual country that we have come from.

Nish Kumar In terms of what is definitely in the report, there’s this extra 750 million pounds for youth and sports facilities to encourage meeting, mixing, and stronger bonds. We talk a lot on this show about the kind of decline of town centers and the decline of city centers and the declining of communal spaces where people can interact with each other. Is that something we should welcome? And is the amount sufficient to cover for the sort of decade long war on youth centers and sports facilities that they’re austerity or a government wage.

Louisa Munch No, it’s not enough. And also it shouldn’t be part of the immigration social cohesion strategy. It should be a strategy to help the community of Britain. This is at the root of most of the problems that we have in society now. It’s the fact that we no longer have a community. We no longer have spaces where people can interact. I see the university as a public space as well, and that’s been completely financialized, and we’re facing courts all of the time.

Coco Khan Still thinking about computer immigrant. I’m sorry, I can’t get over it. You know, I saw a piece recently that said lots of San Fran tech workers were moving to London. You know, a lot of them are kind of, I have like liberal politics and they don’t like Donald Trump and they can move wherever they want. And I thought, oh, that’s interesting. Moving countries because the government does things you don’t like. I know some other migrants who do that when they have regimes and stuff, but anyway, moving on, I do want to talk to you about another one of the controversies. So, you know, this policy, it’s meant to be targeted action to deal with Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, and a more rounded look at racism, you now, which of course all sounds welcome, but there’s been a lot of focus on the anti-Muslim hate czar. So this is due to appointed. And there will also be a definition of anti-Muslim hate that kind of comes with it that people will work towards. The idea of a definition has proved to be very controversial. There’s some people that are arguing that fundamentally it will be tantamount to a blasphemy law, i.e. You can’t make fair criticism of a religion or how it’s organized or whatever it might be. It is difficult though, because a lot of the people sharing that opinion, you know, I’m not sure they’re doing it in good faith. But do you think this idea of a definition is important, or is it? The last thing we need to be thinking about.

Louisa Munch Well, no, not really, I don’t think. We need to have spaces where people can talk about what those definitions mean and what it means to be a Muslim or what it needs to be Christian or what British values mean, because otherwise it does just end up as terms and policies and it’s just not helpful to anybody. I think even the language around extremism, what does that mean? What is extremism? I remember I did a course on terrorism in Liverpool. It was so interesting to understand this word that shuts down everything, you know, when somebody mentions it was terrorism or it was terror, then the conversation stops. It’s just abhorrent, it’s just those are bad people. But really understanding what that means and extremism, things like this, that we are always framed in like this horrifying sense, really unpacking that and understanding where that comes from and how it’s kind of changed or evolved, I think. That’s where it really needs to start. I don’t think just having these sort of, these words and policies are gonna really change that.

Nish Kumar I see what you’re trying to say that any time anyone is accused of terrorism, that’s the end of the conversation. They are just a terrorist and we have no conversation about how they’ve been radicalized or what the kind of circumstance. I mean, it’s a really interesting, that feels like something we should be talking about. We should be having a full and open discussion about those things.

Louisa Munch Yeah, and I think people are afraid so much as well to get things wrong these days. Like, people are so afraid to say the wrong thing. Even I am, you know, I go on a podcast and I’m like, Oh my God, I’m going to get canceled.

Coco Khan You should meet Nish Kumar.

Nish Kumar Yeah, my whole life is just offending different communities.

Louisa Munch Yeah. French relatives.

Nish Kumar On a week by week basis. Communities, co-workers, other comedians.

Louisa Munch But like, I just think that’s so unhelpful, you know, we don’t all need to be right at the same time, like we need to understand there is no right answer a lot of the times and it’s just about listening and having productive conversations that challenge different notions that are often just taken for granted and stuff like that. So I think we do need spaces where people can come together and do that, whether it is in communities or, and what the media do is like joke this fear of asking questions. Of thinking that certain questions are off limits or that you can’t say certain things or that we’ve got like, be afraid of people who are woke because we’ll, we’ll jump down your throat and okay, yeah, it is a problem on the left. Like people do, you know, can go at people quite critically about things, but it’s just about having compassion. It’s just about being compassionate and understanding that like everybody is just like you. Everybody just wants to have a nice happy family, be able to afford to go to the shop. Everybody wants the same thing in life. There are no inherently like evil people out there and asking questions isn’t a bad thing.

Coco Khan So Louisa, I’m so glad we got to speak to you today, not least because I follow you on the internet. I’ve been listening to you a lot of your work about the role of universities. So I’m very interested to hear what you are thinking about the part of this strategy that is on universities. So apparently there’s new legal oversight to make sure that universities do more to prevent students from being radicalized and drawn into terrorism. This includes the creation of a whistle blowing body. My first question for you is, is this a problem? Or is this an import from America? Because I know there was a lot of talk about campus activism being regarded by some as being radicalism and being a problem. There was a conversation about free speech in universities. Is this an importer? This is a genuine thing that you’ve seen in higher education.

Louisa Munch I genuinely wonder if anybody who wrote this policy has spoken to anyone from universities. Like ask us, ask us what we think the issues are because the issues on not extremism on campus, the issues that nobody has any money, that we can’t afford to put teachers in classrooms. Like these are the least of our problems and we all are trying to do is give these students the ability to question and challenge what they see in the media. And feel empowered and have some political agency when they go out there and have to cope with the cost of living crisis, things like that. And I just find this kind of, the surveillance of it all of, okay, so now pitting educators against the students. Universities are the one place where that doesn’t happen. We sit down with the students, nobody stood up, and everybody’s on a level basis. And I just find this. Really strange as well. The whole point of university is having and forming your own critical opinions on things and that’s the key thing, they’re critical. Nobody’s walking around with like an ideology they feel so strong about that they can’t unpack or be critical around or have self-awareness of or understand on a broader political sense because you’re going to fail university if you do that. Like the whole point is challenging ideologies so I’d be surprised if this is happening. On campuses, and again, it’s about what kind of extremism. Extremism isn’t necessarily regarded in terms of like the far right extremism that we’re seeing now. Or, you know, we’ve just had adolescents come out like last year, a year before.

Nish Kumar The sort of adolescence factor is about radicalisation of young men.

Louisa Munch Mm-hmm.

Nish Kumar Regardless of their race or religion, that’s a time bomb that was laid about 10 years ago that’s sort of exploding around us right now.

Louisa Munch Yeah, and radicalization is, you can only do it if you ensure that people can’t think critically around things because you’re not going to get radicalized about something if you are thinking critically and questioning and challenging these ideologies. I find the word radicalization kind of unhelpful anyway because does it just mean you have a radical opinion on anything? I was on a show called Radical just because I was talking about having free University, you know.

Nish Kumar Let’s just round this off by talking about the funding crisis at university. Because Louisa, you’ve already said that you feel that there wasn’t enough consultation with people actually working at universities. And if there had been, it would have been, we need more money. Because the crisis is very, very real. 49% of universities are closing courses to reduce costs. And that’s a number that’s nearly doubled in the space of a year. 45% have cut optional modules. 18% have closed entire departments and 88% have said that they may need to consider further course closures. Support staff at several universities are taking strike action over pay or plans for that cost cutting. I mean, what is the solution for the university funding crisis in lieu of the government having this conversation and instead talking about terrorism or whatever the fuck they’re talking about in this report? What is the actual practical solution for the university crisis?

Louisa Munch Well, I just want to say as well, expecting us to now also watch out to see if any of the students are becoming extremists is ridiculous. We are trying to look after our students, like they are struggling as much as we are with their mental health, with the prospects of not having a job afterwards. Everybody is struggling. I’d be very surprised if… You know, anybody has any time to then be sifting through any sort of dialog in case it has like a single nugget of extremism. You know, I, I’m being radicalized by the university because of how tough everything is for everybody in, in a way that, I mean, the solution here is it needs to be state funded, it’s a public good, people should have the right for, to higher education. Whatever they choose to do, people should have the right to go and do that. And it shouldn’t be seen as this personal investment towards getting a job. Like it is about agency, it’s about being able to participate politically and feeling confident in challenging views and challenging norms. And the solution to me is look at Europe, look at how they structure universities. They invest in their young people. They’re seen as the drivers of the future. They’re going to make university free because they want an educated population. I don’t understand why we don’t have that view in this country.

Nish Kumar Louisa, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK. You can find Louisa on TikTok and Instagram at louisamunchtheory.

Speaker 4 [AD]

Coco Khan So look, despite all the government’s attempts at social cohesion, it’s no secret that it’s getting harder and harder for migrants to settle in the UK. So just this week, Migration Minister Mike Tapp showed how hard it can be.

Clip Okay, so what is the height of the London Eye? What is the Height of the London Eye, Minister? I don’t know the height of the london eye. So you would fail the test? I’m confident that I would be able to pass the test, absolutely. I’m a proud Brit, I’ve served the country, I’ve been to war for the country.

Coco Khan So that was Tapp failing one of the questions on the UK citizenship test, which I think it’s better to say we would fail. It was, what was the height of the London Eye? Very high. Makes me get scared. I get scared that high.

Nish Kumar That’s not the only part of the system, though, that’s getting tougher. Today, hundreds of people from all over the country are meeting their MPs to share their concerns about the government’s planned changes to settlement in the UK. That is the right to live in the U.K. Permanently without any immigration restrictions, also known as indefinite leave to remain or ILR.

Coco Khan So in short, from April this year, most people will have to wait 10 years instead of five years to be considered for settlement. And settlement will no longer be granted automatically after this fixed period. Instead, migrants will need to earn it by demonstrating sustained good conduct, contribution and integration.

Nish Kumar Can I just say, I think this is one of the most stupid policies we’ve ever covered on this podcast in the last three, four years. I think it is beyond boneheaded. I don’t understand how you help social cohesion by making people’s position in the country even more precarious. And these are people that, you know, they’ve lived here for five years. A lot of these are my friends. These are people who, you without wishing to be crass, in of some of my friends contribute quite spectacularly in their taxes. To this country’s public finances, and I have no ability to comprehend why this is the thing that this government is going after. I’ve no idea what Shabana Mahmood is smoking. I have no clue what could possibly be going through their head with this. It’s a huge change that’s going to impact not just new immigrants, but also migrants currently living in the United Kingdom. And although there was public consultation, it was brief and extremely limited. The organizers sent us this clip from Westminster today.

Clip Hi everyone, I just came out of Praxis’ mass lobby against the government’s earned settlement proposals. We were joined by disability rights activists, migrants rights activists. We were joined the Royal College of Nursing. This is people power in action. We’ve been here calling for the government to scrap these settlement proposals and at the very least make sure that they’re not applied to migrants who are already living in the UK. It was really amazing to see hundreds of people, a lot of people with lived experience, talking to their MPs and telling them exactly how these proposals will affect them. We’ve had a huge turnout of MPs from loads of different political parties, and this just shows that there is a real opportunity here, so we’ve got to keep pushing. This is just the beginning. We have a lot more work to do to convince the government that they need to end these settlement proposals. So watch this space. We’ll be doing a lot of more. Very exciting.

Coco Khan So if you’d like to sign the open letter to the Home Secretary to stop these frankly disastrous earned settlement plans, we will put a link in the show notes.

Nish Kumar I have no way of conceptualizing why they’re going after indefinite leave to remain. Even if you follow this logic that immigrants have to pay their way and integrate, these are people who are paying their way. These are people integrated into British society. All I can think is, a phrase that was used in this show and has been used a wants me every single time I think about it is. This idea that policy has to pass a daily mail test. Something we’ve heard from people that work within government, it’s something that we’ve talked about on the show that policy has to passed a daily mailtest. That when it’s discussed within the walls of government, this phrase daily mail tested use, this is the only logic I can think of for why this policy has been generated. That it’s to appease the Daily Mail’s editorial report because it is attacking immigrants in any way. There is absolutely no justification for this whatsoever.

Coco Khan The Daily Mail test is also ringing around in my head, especially this idea of sustained good conduct. Who defines what that is? What would the Daily Mail define that as, you know, like the idea of being a bit creative or I don’t know. It just gives me the heebie-jeebies. Now the conflict in the Middle East has only grown over the last seven days. Listeners and viewers will remember our great analysis about the Strait of Hormuz last week, but three commercial ships there have been hit and damaged.

Nish Kumar US and Israeli bombs have continued to rain down on Iran and Iran’s drones have struck targets across the Gulf. Over the weekend strikes on Iranian oil infrastructure caused what can only be described as apocalyptic scenes as massive flames lit up the skyline in Tehran.

Coco Khan But Sunday morning, residents of the city woke to find it still dark, the smoke from the fires blotting out the sun. And soon, black rain began to fall over Tehran, as one CNN reporter documented.

Clip The rain that’s coming down seems to be saturated or filled with oil. You can see it’s completely black. Everything on the ground is black as well. And if you look over here at this wall, you can see that the rainwater coming down here is also black. This comes after a night of really heavy bombardment here in the Iranian capital that also saw thick plumes of smoke over…

Nish Kumar The city. In the aftermath of the attacks, Iran’s environmental agency and the Iranian Red Crescent Society warned Tehran’s residents to stay home because of the toxic chemicals spread by the attacks which could damage skin and lungs. Many residents are reported to have woken up with pain in their throat and their eyes burning. The experts in the field are also already warning about the long-term environmental repercussions of this bombing.

Coco Khan The rain was black. As of Monday, 1,255 people in Iran, mostly civilians, had been reported killed. That’s according to the Iranian Health Ministry. This is on top of the hundreds of casualties across the region, including in Lebanon, the Gulf states and Israel.

Nish Kumar Last week, there were also reports of an airstrike on a girls’ school in Iran, which killed at least 170 people. Whilst Trump initially denied US involvement, new footage shows that a military base next to the school was likely hit by a Tomahawk missile. Now, this is a weapon used by the US, and Israel and Iran do not have access to it.

Coco Khan In the UK, Keir Starmer has come under criticism from all sides really for his response to the conflict. So previously he agreed to let the US use British bases for defensive action against Iran and RAF jets have been shooting down missiles and drones fired towards allies in the region.

Nish Kumar So he’s obviously been attacked, I guess you would say, from the progressive wing or the left wing of British politics. On the other hand, conservatives have said that the RAF should be directly attacking Iranian missile launch sites. Zack Polanski has criticized Starmer for dragging us into another illegal war and for letting US bombers land in the UK. Starmer’s position is complicated here, because technically the United Kingdom is not involved in, I He’s still. Shooting down drones, and we are still allowing the American army use of our military bases. So it’s a very, very complicated situation. Some of that complexity is not just affecting the Labour Party and the Labour government, it’s affecting reform. Initially, the party seemed to support the action, with Nigel Farage saying that the UK should do all we can to help the US and Israeli bombing. Robert Jenrick, Reform’s finance spokesman, has struck a more cautious tone, warned of Britain becoming involved. In drawn out wars in far away places. Perhaps the least surprising intervention on this has come from former Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has criticized Arma’s approach, reportedly saying at an event, we should have backed America from the very beginning. Again, with respect, Tony Blair. Please shut the fuck up. Also, how have you learnt nothing? My main takeaway from all of this is I have been struck in the head and have woken up. In 2003. That’s the only logical conclusion I can come to having read some of the arguments because I cannot believe that twice in the last 20 years we are having the exact same conversation about a war in the Middle East. I can’t believe that we would be going through this again. I cant believe that would be in a situation where people would once be recycling the argument of. Oh, well, look, at the end of the day, if you don’t support this military action, you are in support of X regime, right? It’s the same argument that was made with Saddam Hussein. It’s same argument is being made with the Iranian regime right now. I can’t believe we’re back here again. So I refuse to, I can only come to the conclusion that it is 2003 again. I have misread an N for a Q. We’re supporting an illegal war that Erica’s Waging in the Middle East. There’s a new Gorillaz album and there’s new Scrubs episodes. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that I have been struck in the head and woken up in the early 2000s.

Coco Khan This was so honestly, I mean, I too look forward to a new Gorillaz album, but you know.

Nish Kumar It’s out. It’s good. It is out already. It was very good.

Coco Khan But I mean, at least they attempted to make something up, you know what I mean? Like, oh, we’ve got some evidence, we have evidence of the other thing, they’re not even trying now.

Nish Kumar I can’t believe that we’re looking back at nostalgia. Remember when they at least bothered to lie to us? Truly a halcyon era for warmongering.

Coco Khan Oh God. So Nish, Sadiq has come out swinging again at all the London naysayers. So his bio on Instagram now reads, London Maxing since 2016. So are you familiar with the Maxing trend.

Nish Kumar Coco, I’m a 40-year-old man. I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Coco Khan Well, I hope you’re ready for some, how do you do fellow kids explanations.

Nish Kumar I mean, I don’t know why I’ve introduced my age there. I was never really aware of what was going on, even when I was 16. In 2001 and 2002, I was trying to talk to people about Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan. So like, I didn’t know, why I’m pretending I’ve now lost relevance.

Coco Khan Some people are born old, aren’t they? Anyway, no, that was me. So the suffix de jour of the internet is maxing. You’ll see it apply to all sorts of different words. And the most famously, it’s applied to looks maxing, which has come out of incel culture, which is this idea of essentially optimizing your appearance to get women, because women are all clearly the same. It’s clearly the same.

Nish Kumar Isn’t that something to do with, like, you break your jaw and stuff so that you, like…

Coco Khan And they’re like extreme end. Yeah. But there’s like a point system attached to it. Anyway, we don’t need to get into that. But you know, that was the main way you saw maxing applied. And now it’s taken on its own life. So you’ve got monk maxing, which is like, when you prioritize like stillness and living a more stoic life, your monk max.

Nish Kumar I was monk maxing in my mid-20s, but that’s to do with the amount of sex that was happening. I was really monk max-ing. Well, anyways. I was 25 years old.

Coco Khan There was China Maxing. I actually wrote a story on it. That’s why I know about this. But yeah, China Maxsing is where people enjoy traditions that are Chinese. And now we have London Maxing, which is essentially people being quite bullish about London online. You know, London is constantly pilloried. Obviously we have a Muslim mayor, so it’s been a real target of hatred, right-wing hatred, far-right hatred. JD Vance obviously really hates London, particularly so does Donald Trump. It would seem. And so the Londoners are saying, no, we’re not having it. We are going to push back. We are London maxing. So it’s just people online being like, oh, look at our great pubs. Look at the culture. Look at that. So many people are moving here. You know, people are leaving America, but they’re coming here.

Nish Kumar I’ve been talking about this on stage, especially when I gig outside of the UK, because I sort of didn’t really realize until like my family from outside the UK started saying, is London safe?

Coco Khan Yes, I’ve had that as well!

Nish Kumar Really interesting, isn’t it? Because by all of our metrics, crime is going down in London. I believe with the exception of phone theft, but even phone theft that’s just criminals trying to get us to live in the now. That’s just them trying to get us be in the moment and look up from our down screens. It’s mindfulness. Yeah, it’s mindfulness, but yeah, but by all metrics, you know, violent crime, everything is falling and has been for the last 10 years. London is safer than it’s ever been. But perversely, I’m coming out against London Maxing. Okay, why’s because I think You know, our tourism revenues are really good. We’re getting people coming into London all the time. I think that the reputation of London as a shithole is keeping out cunts. And I think, that’s a really good thing.

Coco Khan So you want to see London Minningsy?

Nish Kumar At the moment, our tourism revenues are good. We’re getting good people coming to London. This reputation that London has is keeping out some of the worst people in the world. And I think that’s a good thing. If JD Vance doesn’t want to come to London, that is something we should be encouraging. We should be encourage JD Vantz not to come to London

Coco Khan I’m open to this as a theory. I think we need to get some cool words in place for it. Let’s think on it. But for now, let’s have some PSUK maxing. Is that good?

Nish Kumar What does that involve? Just being anxious in South Asia? Is that what PSUK-maxing is? Being lightly hungover a lot of the time and having really, really voluminous hair.

Coco Khan Yeah. Big hair. Have a dosa. Feel scared. Welcome to PSUK Maxing.

Nish Kumar Now, before we go, you might think that the chancellor responsible for Liz Truss’ disastrous mini budget, which tanked the economy, might not be the best person to trust when it comes to financial investments. But that isn’t stopping Nigel Farage. On Monday, he announced that he had invested £215,000 in Quasi-Quarteng’s Bitcoin reserves company.

Coco Khan So Farage has been a long time supporter of crypto and said that the UK can and should become a major global hub for the crypto industry. It comes as reform has been strengthening its ties with the sector, which definitely has nothing to do with the £12 million donation to the party by crypto billionaire Christopher harbum.

Nish Kumar I mean, look, the political right does have an obsession with cryptocurrency. They really do. They really. Elon Musk, Trump, there is a real fixation with it. My concern is because it’s an avenue of financialization that is an even less regulated area of finance, which I think is something that unites the sort of disparate elements of the right. You know, this desire to have totally unregulated financial spaces. Like it feels like it’s sort of cryptocurrencies as an area of sort of. Like a kind of subprime mortgage on steroids. That’s why I think there is this kind of weird affiliation with it.

Coco Khan Yeah, no, it’s anti-state trust on steroids, right? I mean, I get that these libertarians want a small state, a vanishingly small state and a lack of regulation, but it is fascinating, isn’t it, that they find the finance sector to not be regulated enough.

Nish Kumar Farage isn’t and has never been an insurgent and his economic platform has always been more aligned with someone like Kwasi Kwarteng than I think sometimes any of us really give enough time to. You know, this is a man who’s essentially sort of re-employing a bunch of high ranking conservative officials from the last catastrophic government and is now outside of politics pumping money into a Bitcoin that’s being championed by the moron who crafted the list trust mini-budget that tanked the economy. So I mean, this, you know, Faraj is and always has been an instrument of the establishment. And this is just further to that. Like, you know when I read this news, it was kind of like, of course that makes perfect sense with everything that he does. I think one of my least evolved political views is when someone says they’re a libertarian, there’s always a part of me that’s like, I’ll fucking just grow up. Just fucking grow up! What are you, a fucking 12-year-old? Hell, I don’t… We don’t need the government. We can make our own hospital shut up.

Coco Khan If you are dating cisgendered men, and at any point that man says they have an interest in crypto, just leave, get out, pack a bag, go, okay? Let’s just be your own good. I’m here to help you. It’s a red flag, a giant red flag. On that note though, this is time to mention our mailbag episode. Yeah, we’re doing another mailbag.

Nish Kumar Well, if everyone wants to immediately contribute to the Mailbag episode by listing your favorite Coco Khan sounds, that would be great. Yeah, the Mail Bag episodes are always great. We always get questions that we are unable to answer for time because we always run out of time because the news is insane.

Coco Khan I’m sure there’ll be a lot of political questions, but we do also welcome the jovial. So perhaps you would be interested in knowing how many keep cups the so-called environment loving Nishkamaar earns.

Nish Kumar Yeah, also some predictions like for example, how long is Keir Starmer going to last? I mean that prediction That question could be irrelevant.

Coco Khan Yeah, true, very true. So if you are going to send in a question, please do and send them to psuk@reducedlistening.co.uk or drop a note in the comments. They’ll be answered in a special episode at the start of April.

Nish Kumar And if you are a libertarian and you are listening, just seriously fucking grow up. Like, grow up!

Coco Khan I don’t think the Libertarians are listening to this posthumous announcement.

Nish Kumar We can make our own schools, fucking gross, you’re pathetic, you are absolutely pathetic.

Coco Khan And that’s it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save The UK on Instagram, TikTok, X and Blue Sky.

Nish Kumar Thanks to lead producer May Robson and digital producer Jacob Liebenberg.

Coco Khan Our theme music is by Vasillis Fotopoulos.

Nish Kumar Our engineer is Jeet Vasani and our social media producer is Nada Smiljanic.

Coco Khan The executive producers are Kate Fitzsimmons and Katie Long, with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Nish Kumar And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify, or Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.