As parliamentarians were ironing their robes in preparation for the King’s Speech, Trump’s new running mate JD Vance shocked the UK with flippant remarks that have sent a shiver down the spine of the New Government. Nish and Coco are joined by Liz Bates to discuss Vance’s comments, the themes behind the surprise-free King’s Speech and two shock resignations – those of Welsh First Minister Vaughan Gething and England manager Gareth Southgate.

Later, Nish and Coco catch up with two young people with lived experience of our crumbling education system and check in with Janeen Hayat, Director of Collective Action at the Fair Education Alliance. Education is one of the new government’s top five priorities – where the few short-term wins to be had are balanced out by some prickly policy problems.

Later, Liz returns to unveil an MP’s (not-so) shameful secret, the neverending Tory psychodrama and the reality TV show nobody was asking for.

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Guests:

Liz Bates

Janeen Hayat

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Audio Credits: 

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The Guardian

TRANSCRIPT

[AD]

Nish Kumar The Kings Speech, Knives Out and and education.

Coco Khan No, we’re not talking through our favorite films. We’ve got a stuffed episode of political news for you. I’m Coco khan.

Nish Kumar I’m Nish Kumar, and this is Pod Save the UK.

Coco Khan This week, we’re poring over King Charles’s address at the state opening of Parliament. We’re diving into what Welsh First Minister Vaughan Gething his resignation might mean for Keir Starmer. And we’re exploring the challenges and opportunities that Secretary of State for Education Bridget Phillipson faces over the coming years. But first.

Clip I was talking with a friend recently, and we were talking about, you know, one of the big dangers in the, in the world, of course, is nuclear proliferation, though, of course, the Biden administration doesn’t care about it. And, I was talking about, you know, what is the first truly Islamist country that will get a nuclear weapon? And we were like, maybe it’s Iran. You know, maybe Pakistan already kind of counts. And then we sort of finally decided maybe it’s actually the UK. Since Labour just took over.

Nish Kumar A fascinating first message from Donald Trump’s newly appointed running mate, JD Vance, in that clip from The Guardian to discuss this intriguing development. We’re joined by the closest friend of the pod. Welcome back to the show, Liz Bates. How are you?

Liz Bates I guess I’m sort of more the official pod stalker. We were just saying before, it’s kind of baby reindeer vibes a little bit, but, you know, maybe a sort of a gentler version of that.

Nish Kumar Potty reindeer.

Liz Bates Potty reindeer. Yeah.

Coco Khan So returning to JD Vance.

Liz Bates Yes.

Nish Kumar Must we?

Coco Khan Yeah. Well, sadly, I think we do need to talk about this. I think the first thing I am interested in is Trump mania. Sure. What do you think is that is the spirit of this current presidential campaign going to match, you know, way back when Carson mines back to the original, Trump, you know, that feeling of certain opinions out the box? And, are you excited?

Liz Bates Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s the the realignment of politics. We’ve seen it in the UK, we’ve seen in the US as well. And I think to some extent, the Pandora’s box is open. You know, we we know what Trump is about. That kind of flavor of us politics is back with a vengeance. And I think JD Vance, you know, certainly encapsulates, some of that. I mean, the thing that I thought was, was interesting, about that particular comment that he made about the UK was it’s been, you know, it’s going to be a difficult period of time for the Labour Party as they try to roll back on some of the things that they’ve said about Trump as they look at the prospects of a Trump presidency and all that that means for the world and try to navigate, how can they put their politics aside and, keep kind of good, relationships with the Trump administration in a way that kind of benefits this country and the rest of the world. And then you see JD Vance speak. And the thing that really struck me was like, he doesn’t give a fuck about us. Yeah, yeah. You know, the relationship is so one way, you know, we’re constantly wringing our hands thinking, how do we how do we keep the special relationship going? You know, even when our politics is very, very different and they could not care less like, to him, it wasn’t even just the content, the it’s a joke to him. The UK is something that you can talk about in a way that they’re a joke, they don’t matter. And if he offenses, they don’t care. Yeah. And so I think that is really a very worrying I mean approach to politics. And, and it’s, it’s a, it’s a massive problem for the Labour Party.

Nish Kumar Well look obviously listeners to this podcast will I’m sure be following, Pod Save America, who we’re doing daily dispatches from, the RNC and talking about the reaction, to JD Vance, his comments and the speeches that were made at the RNC, and obviously the continued fallout in the assassination attempt, on, Donald Trump. So but we are obviously going to focus on the kind of British implications of this. And as you say, it’s put the Labour Party in quite difficult position. David Lammy had, been trying to cultivate relations with JD Vance, and it described him as, a friend, I believe, a recent public appearance they, they made Angela Rayner has, made some comments, on ITV’s Good Morning Britain that were, I think, pretty measured in tone. So it’s worth listening to that. This is Angela Rayner.

Clip Well, I think he said quite a lot of fruity things in the past as well. I don’t recognize that characterization. I’m very proud of the election success that Labour had recently. We won votes across all different communities, across the whole of the country. And, you know, we’re interested in governing on behalf of Britain and also working with our international allies. So I look forward to that meeting. If that is the result. And it’s up to the American people to decide.

Nish Kumar Yes, it is up to the American people to decide. And, the UK is not an Islamist country and inshallah, the Republicans will not win in November. But.

Coco Khan I’m not engaging with this. I’m just going to keep it. Let’s keep it moving.

Nish Kumar It does. It does make things difficult. It also has to say let’s before we move on. It does make things slightly complicated for a Labour government, which is so closely politically aligned to the Biden administration in so many ways, it does present some potential complications.

Liz Bates It’s hard. And, you know, going from 14 years in opposition and going into government, you know, you it’s so easy to fall into the trap of feeling like you want to stand up, especially when you know someone like Trump, is is about to become president. And all of the things that he has said and the and the things that he represents. I think there’s always the temptation to want to call it out. Yeah. And to want to sort of speak up for the UK. But on the other hand, this is real grown up shit. The things that they’re talking about, you know, with pulling back a little bit from NATO. Yeah. And leaving Ukraine to kind of basically be occupied by Russia, that has the most serious implications for us as a country. And, you know, you can see that that is the first steps to its type of global instability that we we just have not seen and witnessed, particularly in Europe. Yeah. And so the responsibility now falls to this government. They have to as as difficult as that might feel and as, as as difficult as it might be for them, particularly in this country and, and how their voters might feel about that. They have to be close to that administration. We need that military power. We need their backing. We need that money.

Coco Khan I believe actually a recommitment to NATO was included in the King’s Speech today. Which brings me nicely onto the King’s speech.

Liz Bates So smooth.

Coco Khan Thank you. Thank you very much. For any of our listeners who are not familiar with the King’s Speech, the main thing to know is that it’s got not really much to do with the King himself. He hasn’t written it. It’s really a ceremonial speech that’s written by the government of the day, in this case, Labour, for the first time since 2009. And it essentially sets out the government’s policy ambitions for the coming year. It’s a press release, basically. Imagine a mega ermine velvet, bejeweled press release. So here’s a clip from King Charles speaking in the House of Lords on Wednesday.

Clip My Lords and members of the House of Commons, my government will govern in service to the country. My government’s legislative program will be mission led and based upon the principles of security, fairness and opportunity for all.

Nish Kumar So a huge blizzard of policy announcements, 40 bills and draft bills announced in the King’s Speech, for regular listeners to the pod. Most of this is going to feel very familiar. Liz, what are your, highlights from the King’s Speech? Not many surprises, right?

Liz Bates I think no surprises. Yeah. And, I think that’s quite consistent with the way that the Labour Party have been. I mean, they set out, over the past couple of years is quite detailed program for government. All of the different things that they wanted to do in Keir Starmer giving all these speeches about his missions, etcetera. And we saw that in the election campaign with the manifesto that there were no surprises in that either. It was very similar, actually, to the content of the of the King’s Speech, which, as you say, is just basically like a big, long press release.

Nish Kumar Huge focus on the economy, huge focus on driving growth, and also liberalizing planning, fighting NIMBYism and, pushing housing. That’s going to be a divisive element of the bill, the housing stuff, because it’s.

Liz Bates It always is.

Nish Kumar This one is because it takes, powers to block development away from local authorities, where it’s centralizing some of that decision making.

Liz Bates It does. And that’s one of the major blocks noise has been in this country is that, you know, locally, people do have a lot of power to oppose, housing developments and have done and the way that the political system tends to work in this country, because we have low clamps, they tend to it doesn’t really matter which party they’re from. They always oppose big housing developments because everybody wants that to be more houses, and people want their kids to be able to get on the housing ladder and, you know, the rental sector, be better, etcetera, etcetera, to increase supply. But nobody really wants, houses to be built where they live. And so this will be a big challenge. I mean, the conservatives put a plan on the table, during their time in office, and it was actually quite a good plan. It was basically masterminded by Dominic Cummings, who, you know, doesn’t give a fuck really about, you know, as we know, conservative politicians and whether they care about planning laws. And he was kind of willing to rip up the system that we have in place and really push through, especially one of the things was in, in like the beautiful places, you know, the places where there are Tory MPs and Tory councils and lots of rolling hills, and he just couldn’t get it past, the party. And that we see that time and time again in British politics because it’s just so, unpopular locally. And the MPs and the councilors squeal. That’s the thing. You end up with so many pissed off MPs, and it makes your party basically ungovernable. So this is the situation that the Labour Party. Say we’ll be facing so good looks to them. And the thing is about NIMBYism. I always have some sympathy for it. Not because I have a secret country pile that. I’m trying to protect. Like, you know, I’m. I’m living in a terraced house where we get sunlight for like, half an hour a day because we’re just surrounded by buildings. But because you actually go and look at places where there are big housing developments and you think, you know, oh, these bloody you kind of assume that they’re going to just be. Boomers sitting in their lovely house in the middle of the countryside and just being, you know, precious about it. And actually what you find is like pretty normal people like whatever in a semi-detached house. I’ve done a lot of coverage of this, and they kind of beckon you to the back garden and they’ll be and, you know, they have this like small back garden that goes onto like a fields, and they’ll point to it and be like, we’re gonna have 250 houses built on that, and it’s going to take seven years and we can’t sell our house, and the value of our house is dropped. And we don’t know whether you know what our retirement is going to be like. And you just feel like that is shit. Yeah, that is really shit. So when you actually see up close, it’s, you understand why there is so much local, resistance to it.

Nish Kumar Rushing through a couple of other things we should just say on housing. We didn’t mention the renters reform bill, which is back on the table, ending the no fault evictions. That’s a huge thing of really good piece of legislation that was put forward by the conservatives that then sort of ended up getting delayed and delayed and delayed and then eventually just dropped when the election was called. That’s back on the table. The return of the smoking ban, and Great British Energy, which is another big thing.

Coco Khan Everything in the King’s Speech. Well, most of it speaks to this Labour ambition of growth, right? Yeah. That’s all of these policies, all related to their vision of how Britain is going to grow. Obviously, you know, there’s been a lot of criticism of that. And how long will it take to deliver. And people are expecting changes in the, you know, first few years. Were there any surprises, though, from The King’s Speech?

Liz Bates I don’t think so. I mean, I think they’ve been, they’ve been pretty meticulous in setting out exactly what they want to do. And I think you’re right. The theme of it is growth. And the interesting thing about planning is you can’t wave a magic wand and get growth like otherwise. Every single politician everywhere, all the time would do it. Because, you know, growth is something that is, you know, delivers so many benefits. And what most governments aim for because it makes people feel positive. But you have to kind of try to slot lots of different things into place. And one of the things that can really drive growth is planning reform, because that fuels the construction sector, and that is a sector that really drives the rest of the economy. And, and you’re right, GB energy is exactly the same type of thing, but it will be a kind of a mixture, a cocktail of things. And we’ll have to kind of see if it all comes together.

Nish Kumar So look, I mean, you know, there’s, I guess plenty for the Labour Party to be positive about potential problems down the road. One problem that is not very far down the road and is, in fact, right in front of them in the road, and it’s causing potentially a severe traffic accident. Is the situation in Wales that metaphor really got away from it very quickly? But there has been a PhD from Wales where First Minister Vaughan Gething has resigned after four of his ministers tendered their resignation. Gething, who was Europe’s first black leader of any European country, was in the job for less than four months after winning the premiership in a close run race with rival Jeremy Miles, one of the four ministers who resigned and is currently, the likely frontrunner to replace him.

Coco Khan Premiership has been dogged by scandal in regard to a 200,000 pound donation from the firm of a man previously convicted of environmental offenses. In regard to that, guessing wrote that, quote, a growing assertion that some kind of wrongdoing has taken place has been pernicious. It’s politically motivated and it’s patently untrue. 11 years as a minister, I have never, ever made a decision for personal gain. I have never, ever misused or abused my ministerial responsibilities.

Nish Kumar And Liz Starmer and guessing were pretty cozy over the course of the campaign. Labour also did very, very well in Wales, picking up nine extra seats. But is this now a problem for Starmer?

Liz Bates So it’s not going to be like you’re going to see, you know, weeks of Keir Starmer being confronted about this problem. I think the dynamic in Wales is such that and we and we’ve seen it happen before, that if you have one party that’s dominant in a region for a long time and, you know, particularly if there’s a period of stability and under one leader and some outbreak fit, yeah. Then what happens is things kind of ferment under the surface. And I think there’s a bit of factionalism that has been brewing, in Wales and the Labour Party. And I think you could see voters over time move away from Labour in Wales. And I and so I think it could be a long term, problem. It’s starting to feel a bit chaotic. It has that kind of SNP, in Scotland feel end of days, you know, type of thing. And so I think if I was the Labour Party, I would be thinking, okay, we need to get a grip of this in Wales. Otherwise it’s is going to drift. If it drags and drags, then what you get is a kind of airing of of dirty laundry in public. I think at this point, there’s no there’s no avoiding that.

Coco Khan A couple of weeks ago, we spoke about this scandal with Will Hayward. He’s Welsh affairs editor at Wales Online. We’ve. Clicked up a highlight of this to catch you up, so just search at Pod Save the UK on YouTube to find us. And a quick reminder we were squatting on the Pod Save the World feed since we launched, but we’ve now been set free and we have our own pod save the UK channel, so don’t forget to subscribe if you want to see our faces and some fantastic extra content, including an interview about the UK/US special relationship with Ben Rhodes from Pod Save The World.

Nish Kumar But of course, Vaughan Gething is not the only resignation of the week. On Tuesday, Gareth Southgate resigned as the manager of the England men’s football team after coming second in the euros for the second time. But stay with us here. Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy has been singing Southgate’s praises this week and saying that the country should be more Gareth Southgate, less Michael Gove. Now I have always believed that everyone should be less Michael Gove if possible. But Liz, can you just dig into what that means in terms of what was the political messaging behind what, Lisa had to say.

Liz Bates When I heard that I was like such a kind of tortured analogy because you have to bring just so much knowledge to the table. Because you go, you kind of think, oh, she’s going to compare, you know, we need to be more Gareth Southgate. Unless, you know, I was going to say under the football manager, but I can’t literally can’t even think of one. But it was like.

Nish Kumar Jose Mourinho was a cartoon villain from the world of upper management.

Liz Bates Exactly. Yeah. Like we should all be more Gareth Southgate and less Jose Mourinho because whatever. You know, we should all be more about unity and less about division. Yeah. And yet she went into Michael Gove, which I think a lot of people would have been like, oh yeah, I was with you forgot to say we should overrule Gareth Southgate, but why should we be less Michael Gove?

Nish Kumar I mean, did she mean do you want to move away from indulging in divisive cultural politics? I mean, he did, you know, he he would get praised and criticized, in various, areas of the media, in sport and politics over the next couple of weeks, as he has done for the last couple of years. But one of the things that he did do is attempt to redefine a version of Englishness that maybe is more recognizable to people who actually live in England.

Liz Bates I do think that what Gareth Southgate has shown is possible is you can kind of detoxify patriotism and yeah, put forward a kind of view of Englishness that feels really inclusive.

Nish Kumar I think it’s very hard sometimes to conceptualize Gareth Southgate standing by black players who were racially abused after missing penalties, but also study by black and white players on his team that took a public stand against racism. I you know, I think in some ways he has a legacy outside football. The I think it’s hard to think of another England manager in my lifetime that has done that.

Coco Khan Well. Didn’t Nandy say something to that effect, saying that, you know, he’s got a massive contribution to make? I’m paraphrasing, but I got the sense that she was hinting that maybe Gareth Southgate might have something to do with the next Labour government.

Nish Kumar This is the quote. The truth is he’s got an enormous contribution to make. He’s already making it, and I’m really looking forward to working with him as the newly appointed culture secretary for however long that lasta.

Coco Khan What does that mean? Really looking forward to working with him.

Nish Kumar Its Gareth Southgate about to take over the English National Opera. Well, you heard it here first folks.

Liz Bates I would love to see Gareth Southgate in the Lords junior minister. I think he’d be great.

Nish Kumar It couldn’t be more inexplicable than putting Cameron in the Lords so he could be Foreign Secretary. That’s all I’m saying. That’s all I’m saying.

Liz Bates I honestly think it would be extremely popular, but I think I do think it’s a, you know, it’s a good point about Gareth Southgate and, you know, hopefully the kind of specter of Gareth Southgate hanging over this new government will, you know, encourage this idea of leadership as something where you do speak out when it’s difficult, you do take difficult decisions and you can hold on to integrity in public life.

Coco Khan And crucially, the public will turn on you no matter how good you are, which is what I saw with, Gareth Southgate, for sure.

Nish Kumar I don’t think we should read too much into Britain or the British public. I think that is a specific disease of the English football fan. Gareth Southgate is the most successful English manager since Alf Ramsey. There is a big old gap from second to third place.

Coco Khan What podcast are we on now?

Nish Kumar Sorry, we’re on Pod Save the Football. I’m sorry. We’re on, we’re on Pod Save the Football. After the break, let’s get ourselves back on track. When we’re joined by two very special guests to discuss one of the new government’s greatest policy challenges. Education.

[AD]

Coco Khan Moving on to one of the prickly issues that Labour have to deal with education. It’s something that’s very close to our own hearts. And I were talking recently at a conference and we we shared our education origin stories. Go on. You first.

Nish Kumar Well, I mean, I guess I’m a very classic, second generation child of immigrants who pathway to success in this country is to work as hard as possible and then get their kids educated so that their kids can educate themselves into a higher social bracket. I guess my parents did not foresee that the education that I had would lead me to a career in comedy. And not only did they not foresee it, but it actually happened. They were initially quite angry about it. But my education is the reason that I do comedy. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but because I went to university, I got the opportunity to go to the Edinburgh Fringe and start doing comedy in quite a protected environment. I’m not sure I would’ve been able to do it outside of that. So I I’m very lucky to have had the education that I’ve had because in the end, it ended up being the most vocational possible university experience. And I’m very passionate about pushing back against this idea that, well, maybe not everyone should go to university. I mean, it’s true that not everyone should go to university, but I feel like when the people say that, say that what they’re talking about is rich people can go to university, do whatever they want. The university experience I had was a pathway to a career in the arts for me. And so I’m very, very grateful for it.

Coco Khan And that’s why the conservatives wanted to shut it down. So that people like you didn’t go to university and didn’t end up a thorn in their side. Like, it’s interesting hearing you talk about the arts there because particularly arts education has just been, like smashed to smithereens and what that means for young people. And I think, you know, for a lot of like, working class kids, the arts is a way out. It’s a way to elevate yourself, to, like, reach your full potential, to learn your own skills. You can do that with being great at like maths and science and technology in PE and other stuff as well. But like, you know, the arts is significant. Certainly for me personally, in terms of my education origin story, basically, you know, went to a co-op in Barking and Dagenham where gentrification dare not tread. It’s not no East London gentrification has happened there. And it was weird because, like, you know, I was a bit of a badly behaved kid. You. I’m sure you’re surprised to hear it because I’m so charming and lovely now.

Nish Kumar They’ve been banging on it.

Coco Khan But, you know, because home was quite difficult. Obviously single parent family, you know, single parent, immigrant parent and like, you know, you just from a young age, like money’s tight. Everything’s a bit chaotic. You have relatives with illness and even caring responsibilities from quite young age. And so I know on reflection that I was acting out a bit at school, but I got really good grades and I had one teacher who just moved heaven and earth for me, basically. And she, you know, I remember once we were all being sent off for the end of term and the last class was English, was my English teacher who did this. She called me back, almost like, right, listen to me. I think the reason you’re really badly behaved is because you’re actually not stimulated enough. You know, you haven’t you haven’t found your passion. Basically, she’s like, and I think English probably is your passion. So I’m going to give you a book and I want you to read this over half term. We’re going to be studying it next term. And I’m giving it to you now so that you can, like, rule the roost. You can lead everyone else next term. Right. Anyway, she gave me that book and it was obviously very cliche book to give to an angry young person. It was JD Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye.

Nish Kumar That’s the most incel thing about you.

Coco Khan I know, I know, but I like devoured it in two days. And she was right. I was like, wow, I really love the power of literature. I really love books. Came back the next term, you know, really felt inspired. That sort of changed the course of my life. Did English university, then started writing, then went into journalism, obviously, then ended up at the Guardian again. This is why the Tories wanted to cut it so people like me didn’t end up writing shit about them. But yeah. Anyway, I think it’s just worth saying that. Like as to host, we’ve benefited from opportunities that we’re really aware the young kids in school today are not getting.

Nish Kumar But the education system does look incredibly different today than when we were at school in the late 90s and early 2000, and there are many crises that need addressing. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, we’ve seen historically large cuts to school spending per pupil, whilst teachers have seen a real terms reduction. That’s their salaries, adjusted for inflation, in those salaries since 2010. So that’s 14 years of effectively falling wages. It’s not even just that. I mean, the crisis in the education system seems to have sort of manifest itself in school buildings themselves. Like last year, 276 schools had to close because they’re built with a dangerous, crumbling concrete known as RAC.

Coco Khan Meanwhile, the UK has seen soaring levels of child poverty, increasing special educational needs and a widening attainment gap. Schools are witnessing an attendance crisis up 60% on pre-pandemic. Levels, with 1 in 5 children persistently absent. Most certainly, though, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation have said that schools are staggering under the pressure of demand. It’s amid an epidemic of extreme poverty, and it’s been said that schools have become the fourth emergency service due to poor mental health and social care for young people. So really, yeah, teachers are filling and doing much more than just delivering an education. They’re providing mental health support. They’re often providing even, you know, poverty support and things like food banks being run out of schools, things like that.

Nish Kumar Yeah. It’s you know, it’s a sector that is struggling to deliver what it’s supposed to be delivering, which is an education to children. And on top of that, it’s being asked to fill in the gaps amidst the sort of collapsing infrastructure of our society. And the crisis continues outside of schools in 2021 report from Unicef ranking rich countries in terms of childcare provision put the UK almost at the bottom. The quality of British provision was regarded as so poor that it could not even be given a rating.

Coco Khan That was a whistle stop tour and it’s obviously been a long time since we were in school. So joining us a long time, you know, a reasonable amount of time. Let’s not go with long as this is all part of my anxieties about getting older. I’m 21, actually. My age is not. It is redacted. So joining us on Pod Save the UK are Angel and Jayden, two young people with serious thoughts on the education sector and the challenges facing our new government. Welcome to Pod Save the UK guys.

Jayden Thank you! I’ve very excited.

Coco Khan Let’s introduce yourselves. So Jayden in a line tell me about you.

Jayden so my name’s Jayden on 19. I’m from Liverpool but I currently live in the West Midlands. I yeah. Oh and moved here three years ago. So like, I’ve done my college here and I’ve been doing it. My youth are seeing my son like youth work like past three years.

Coco Khan Great. And Angel.

Angel Hi everyone. My name is Angel and I’m the current Miss Teen Nigeria UK. And I’m also on the Nottinghamshire Youth Commission and the education like You star in group and I’m 17.

Nish Kumar That’s why we met these two young people. Yes. Because we, we interviewed you guys, at the Fair Education Alliance, conference, and we were so impressed by these young people, we thought we got to get them on the podcast. We got to get these impressive young people on the podcast starting, which I did. What did you talk us through the challenges that you’ve faced in your own education and the issues that you’ve observed being in school in the last ten years?

Jayden So like me one of the biggest issues was staffing. I just didn’t have enough teachers. Nobody really did. And a lot of my teachers, if I could do it myself, since my subjects were either split between like 2 or 3, sometimes even more on like a bad day, like two more classrooms. And each classroom had about 30 shootings each. So it just wasn’t like a high level, like a high quality level of like teaching because, you know, people will have probably like a mini total with a teacher. Like including like the staffing issue, there was no Senko. So I had like a late diagnosis of like autism, dyslexia. So I didn’t have any accommodations for my like that will land. And when it came to like the exams. So I thought alongside the other socio economic issues, like I didn’t have all the textbooks that I needed. So like half my teachers, I was like Wi-Fi Harry. I did fall behind quite easily, especially with like physical disabilities, which meant that I had to have time off from school. It just kind of like I fell behind and it was almost hard to catch all.

Coco Khan An angel. What about you? You’ve got an interesting education story because you’ve been educated in private schools and obviously in the state sector. I mean, what were some of the biggest challenges that you observed?

Angel Yeah, so for me it was like structural racism. And like the idea of like the labeling theory, I felt like I experienced a lot of racism and I was labeled by teachers and students and yeah, it really harmed my growth, I guess. And also like the pastoral system that was set in place wasn’t really for me. And I guess when I complained, it seemed like I just had attitude and I wasn’t helped at all when I experienced it in private education. But when I went to a public school, I really enjoyed it, and I was given the guidance and records that I needed. And I was also supported after I had learning difficulties, like a few years later. And when I address those issues to the public school that I was in, like there was no help given. So I think that’s a really big thing.

Nish Kumar Based on your experiences of the kind of challenges and difficulties within the education sector, what are the things that the new government needs to change or needs to address most urgently?

Jayden Coming from my experiences, the issue of staffing is does some severe cases like my school, like my school, everything like in special measures, a lot of teachers have to be made redundant because the school just gets more and more funding. So I do think that the initiative to get more teachers into school by scrapping the VAT exemption of private schools is something that is beneficial, but I don’t think it’s necessarily doing enough. I don’t think it’s enough to. And that’s not addressing why teachers are leaving. Why does a quick turnover? You know people a lot teachers are leaving within their first year after they’ve trained and it’s not addressing that issue. So many teachers are too overworked. They’re not getting paid enough. And there’s just so many other issues. Like a lot of teachers have said that the behavior of students is quite off putting. And I think that that’s it can be solved with like free school meals. You know, a lot of people, a lot of young people are food insecure. You know, there’s too many aren’t able to access a meal at home or in school. So, you know, having that it will also help that young. It’s going to just I think it’s going to improve behavior. And that’s another way to keep teachers in the position.

Nish Kumar Angel, what would you say would be, you know, because again, like as we say, you’ve got such an interesting story. You were a scholarship kid that ended up going to private school and then actually going back into the state sector and having a more positive experience. What would you say are kind of short term goals for a new government in regards to education policy?

Angel I would say like increasing representation, because for me, I didn’t have any black teachers in my school and also very isolated and alone. So having that representation of seeing someone who looks like you in large leadership roles is so important, and also just in creating a more inclusive environment. So for example, in private schools, it’s mostly mostly sports like hockey and rugby. And usually they’re not really diverse teams at all. So increased creating more representation, providing more funding. So kids from working class backgrounds and ethnic minority backgrounds are able to go into their sports and, I guess, become the new teams that we see on screen. That would be amazing.

Nish Kumar Well, you both are incredibly impressive. I am amazed at the amount of, poise and composure you have at that age.

Coco Khan I know. I know.

Nish Kumar I think if somebody had asked me how to fix the school sector when I was 18, I had gone just. But but small town man.

Coco Khan May I was listening to a lot of Lincoln Park at that age.

Nish Kumar If there was one immediate policy that you would suggest the government bring in in regards to education or not, if you just fancy freestyling some legislation, if there was one, one kind of immediate thing that you got that you both think it’d be worth bringing in. What would you go with?

Angel Oh, that’s a really good question. I’d say developing inclusive support systems, because I think that covers a lot of the issues in education in terms of teachers and students just, developing that inclusiveness, that everyone feels welcome in the education system and we’re able to encourage each other, I think would be great.

Nish Kumar Jayden, what would you say would be one policy you’d love to see brought in in the short term?

Jayden I think same thing to target areas. I think that is something that’s really important to me. I think a lot of initiatives start a lot to like the focus on the age group that like starting at GCSE. So, you know, like 14, 15, like when people are like in year nine and ten. And I think at that point a lot of people are becoming disengaged for education. I think at that point it is a bit too late because if people have been disengaged and they’re not achieving grades that they desire, it’s going to be really hard for them to be able to catch up. And I think I definitely think that Covid kind of highlighted that issue.

Nish Kumar Jayden, Angel, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck with your exam results and stay in school, kids. Never sounded older.

Coco Khan Never say that.

[AD]

Nish Kumar Labour have made education number four of their five missions to rebuild Britain, pledging to break down barriers to opportunity by reforming our childcare and education systems. His newly appointed education secretary, Bridget Phillipson speaking on Friday to ITV’s Tom Sheldrick.

Clip The process that we’ve begun is around how we tackle issues around attendance, which has a big impact on children’s outcomes. We know if children aren’t in school, they aren’t learning, then that problem is going to continue. But we need also more teachers in our classrooms. We face some big vacancy rates and sadly, too many children being taught by teachers who are not specialist in that field. So we’ve begun that process already to get 6500 new teachers into our classrooms. But there is much more that we will need to do in the weeks and months to come.

Coco Khan Now, Phillipson was mostly laying out the government’s plans for education reform. They’ve pledged to hire 6400 teachers, funded by the ending of tax breaks for private schools, and scrapped single word Ofsted grades, as well as launch an expert review of the school curriculum and fund free breakfast clubs in every primary school.

Nish Kumar So, to help us understand the party’s ambitious plans and how Phillipson intends to put them into action, we’re joined by Janeen Hayat, who’s the director of collective action at the Fairer Education Alliance, a collection of nearly 300 organizations tackling educational inequality. Janeen, it’s great to have you on Pod Save the UK.

Janeen Hayat Thanks. Really nice to be here.

Nish Kumar We came into it into a few guys at your conference.

Janeen Hayat And it was brilliant having you guys at the Fair Education Summit.

Nish Kumar Thank you. That’s why I raised it. We’re just trying to crowbar for ourselves however possible.

Janeen Hayat Top five moment for both of us.

Nish Kumar There’s been a lot of noise around that. Labour’s education prize. They’ve really making it a central part of their offering to the public as a new government. But what do you think are the sort of easy wins here in terms of their first couple of priorities?

Janeen Hayat I almost don’t want to answer that question. I think the problem is the the root causes of a lot of the symptoms we’re seeing in education are not easy to fix. So you just heard Bridget Phillipson talk about attendance. We have big attendance problem in the country. I think persistent absence, which is missing a day a fortnight is over 20%. Severe absence, which is missing 50% or more of school. I think is about 2%. And the rates are much higher. If you are eligible for free school meals. So if you’re from a low income households. So that’s a massive problem, right. But what’s driving that problem. Like why aren’t they turning up. So I’d like to kind of focus on the root causes of that or the teacher recruitment and retention crisis, which is another one that’s really like broken through, to mainstream media. Why are they leaving? Right. Because, Labour have pledged 6500 new teachers, which is great. But retention is actually a bigger issue than recruitment. We have more teachers leaving classrooms in the last few years than we ever have before. I think it’s 44% of teachers said that they kind of are considering leaving in the next five years, and that’s losing experience, is you losing people you’ve invested in. And so kind of there’s the the quick wins of like, how do we how do we drive that number up and fill the gaps. But also we really need to think about in a decade, how are we going to have that profession be more sustainable? For the people who are in it and particularly the people who are teaching the most challenging schools.

Coco Khan I just want to go back to the attendance points. You made this. You know, there’s a variety of reasons of why this happens. What actually are those reasons?

Janeen Hayat Children feeling like they don’t have a way to thrive at school or have, like a sense of belonging at school. So we’ve seen, kind of, a narrowing of the curriculum and, a really kind of target driven approach to educational outcomes. But a side effect of that has been kind of some children losing the things that they really enjoyed about school and, and the things that made them feel at home there. So there is this myriad of issues, and we know we have a mental health crisis in young people as well. And combine that with rising child poverty and the fracturing of services that we’re seeing in communities, and you have rising need, mental health need, but also all sorts of need housing, food, gaps in the social care system. And so all of those needs are also kind of barriers to children getting into school and being ready to learn.

Nish Kumar I just want to circle back briefly to this idea about changing the curriculum. So one of the things that Labour’s proposing is a review of the school curriculum and that sense that, as you say, it’s become too narrow and academic and this is going to require more funding in order to execute a broadening of the curriculum. Right?

Janeen Hayat Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it’s something that looks quite cheap on its face. Right. But then like, has this cost in workload on teachers and in the time and energy it takes to implement a curriculum reform? One thing I’ll say is that’s why we need to think really long term about it. Like not bring in a change overnight and say get on with it. But what we know we have a big gap in across the board is the skills that employers need. And that’s a big driver of youth unemployment. So I think if you work backwards to how can the school system build some of those essential skills that we know are needed, like kind of across industries and regardless of technological development. Right. We know that like employers are saying that things like communication and teamwork, creativity are things that they’re not seeing in people entering the workforce. It seems clear that we kind of need to prioritize activities and a mix of things to help people build those skills. Is one thing what young people want to see in school. We should absolutely be talking to them and involving them, putting them at the front, but also gathering data about like all of the holistic things, like what do you like about school or what stops you from going to school, or when do you feel most at home there? But I think we have to be honest about the fact that something has to change, and we need to to have a plan for being that change in sustainability over the next decade.

Coco Khan I mean, one of the things me and Nish were talking about was we were having our misty eyed recollections of when we were in school. And of course, exams were important, but there’s definitely been a shift towards a kind of like the exams and the exam results being the be all and end all. And so there’s talk about moving away from that. And also, you know, I suppose in a way coinciding with that is talk about like how schools are assessed both in terms of their exam results, but also in terms of offered assessments. So, the single word of their judgment would be replaced with a scorecard system. I’m sure many of our listeners will be familiar of walking past to a school, and they have a big banner says fair. Seems a bit cruel. Job fair. And there’ll also be inspections of multi-academy trusts, and there’ll be an introduction of a new annual review of safeguarding practices, as well as attendance and off rolling. Of rolling is the practice of removing a pupil from the school rote without a permanent exclusion. Do you think all these things together could create conditions that are better for teachers, where they can actually experience infusing young people with the passions of their subject?

Janeen Hayat Yeah, I think it’s really early days, so I think they absolutely could. A huge part of upset has been what results are the kids getting. And you can see why it’s hugely important. That’s a barrier to progressing in education. It’s a barrier to employment. But I think there have been some unintended consequences, of schools, you know, off rolling pupils who aren’t going to get those results, or of, teachers kind of feeling more pressure if they’re teaching in really challenging schools because they can’t focus on results as much because they’re focusing on this really complex work of mitigating the impacts of poverty. There are more foodbanks in schools and many other kinds of food banks, their schools providing transportation to students, buying washing machines for parents, making sure their kids have beds to sleep in. And in some ways it’s it’s really amazing to see schools doing that work with no additional funding. But that complex work isn’t fully recognized by Ofsted and it’s not rewarded. And, you can’t you can’t possibly do everything I’m.

Nish Kumar Going to talk to you about, where we are so far with the new government. Government is, so far missing a commitment to protect school funding. So will the 1.5 billion pounds raised from taxing private schools be enough to reverse 14 years of austerity and fulfill the kind of key promise on education, which is raising school standards for every child?

Janeen Hayat I think the answer is no. And I think money is the huge challenge. Whenever I, you know, I listen to your housing episode and I think as you zoom in on, like, every social issue, you’re going to like run into the exact same problem, which is everyone is skint and everything massively needs investment. There isn’t going to be enough money to restore everything to the real terms funding levels that were there a couple of decades ago. So I think the big challenge for this government is going to be striking that balance between how do we make investments for the kids who are in the system now while doing this long term work? And, there are, you know, capital investments that need to be made in schools, like, we know, like their buildings that are dangerous. We have the RAC scandal not that long ago and kind of everyone’s forgotten about that, but it’s still there. It’s not fixed. However, I would say that there’s lots we can do that doesn’t necessarily cost that much money. One is is shifting the incentives in the system and, and shifting what we value in the system. So teaching is, is maybe not competitive with other professions, in, in the manner of pay. But we’ve been looking at how do you make teaching more competitive with other professions in making it more flexible for people with caring responsibilities, making it more diverse and inclusive.

Nish Kumar Just to hone in on and be specific to education externally, just as somebody who’s seen the election result sees the size of. The Labour majority. You’d be forgiven for just assuming. Well, they can just do whatever they want, right? But in terms of education specifically, what are some of the kind of political roadblocks to enacting some of these reforms?

Janeen Hayat Yeah, I think the biggest one is, making the cell for long term an investment that’s not necessarily going to have demonstrable shiny wins. But what we’re asking for is this, like, recognition of the complex work teachers in the most challenging schools do, and working towards, a more sustainable profession that’s more competitive in ways other than, than pay and more pay. The use of school space for nurseries that that Labour has announced is really welcome, because it’s going to create supply in lower income communities, and it’s going to better able nurseries to meet the needs of, kids with special educational needs. Again like we have a big earlier. Workforce problem. And we have an issue with kids who spend their first five years at home. All of the services that support them, everything that used to be there for a parent, has been kind of eroded. So we’re going to need to like kind of rebuild all of those like ways of colLabouration and, and networks.

Nish Kumar Janeen, thank you so much for joining us Pod Save the UK.

Janeen Hayat It’s been really lovely. And if I could make, a last plug for the Fair Education Alliance to, have a look at our website, have a look at our priorities for new government, and get in touch at info@fair education.org.uk  if you are a business or charity or school or trust who would like to work collaboratively .

Nish Kumar The listenership of this podcast guaranteed there’s people who work in education. And I know there are hippies that listen to this.

Coco Khan Thank you Janeen.

Nish Kumar Thanks Janeen.

Janeen Hayat Thanks so much.

Coco Khan So there have been rumors flying around Westminster that conservative MP and former Foreign Secretary James Cleverly was a fan of Warhammer. And then a huge day for gaming nerds. Cleverly has come clean, posting a selfie Onyx with a freshly painted Warhammer figurine.

Nish Kumar Yeah, apparently hundreds of fellow Warhammer players have replied, but we should clarify what Warhammer is, right? It’s a sort of, it’s a fantasy based kind of tactical game that involves, these little figurines that you can buy and paint. Liz Bates is still with us. Liz, do you think, is this part of James Cleverly push, to present himself as the unity candidate for Tory leader? He could unify the right. He could unify the center. He could unify the nerds. Is this part of the push?

Liz Bates Yes, exactly. This is him appealing to every part of the nation, including people. The like Warhammer, which, I don’t know. I literally can’t even picture Warhammer, so. I’m so sorry. I’m bringing.

Coco Khan It’s got the word war in it so isn’t it a bit deficient?

Janeen Hayat No, so it’s not appealing to me. If he wants to appeal to me as a voter, he needs to be like. And I also love the sex and the city films.

Nish Kumar Gee, well, we’d know he was lying. Yeah. Look, if cleverly is positioning himself as the Warhammer Unity candidate, there will areas of the Conservative Party elsewhere that the unity was not particularly, evident. A row broke out between potential Tory leadership rival Suella Braverman. Can be Badenoch. The times reported that Badenoch accused Bradford of having a very public nervous breakdown. Suella then took to her ex to pop back up at the dock, saying I’d be interested in knowing whether Kevin thinks I’m having a very public nervous breakdown, adding the hashtag we don’t leak.

Liz Bates So the funny thing about the, the Kemi Badenoch comments is that she said them in a meeting, a private meeting, with some cabinet colleagues, I think. And there was a big long list of things that was the were leaked to Stephen Swinford, who is journalist at the times. And, it was like, you know, she said this and this and this, and she said, you know, I think Suella Braverman is having a, a public nervous breakdown. And then at the end it said. And she also spoke about the importance of not leaking these private meetings to journalists. And then someone immediately leaks it to a journalist. And then I loved the fact that Suella Braverman, then immediately reacted in a way that suggests that, yes, she is having a public breakdown, because the first thing you would do if you are having a nervous breakdown is reply on Twitter.

Nish Kumar Hashtag Widow Lake.

Liz Bates Yeah.

Coco Khan So, I think what Badenoch got wrong was to imagine it’s just Braverman who’s having the breakdown. It feels like the entire Tory party is having a very long and public breakdown. Terrifyingly, Priti Patel appears ready to enter the race this week. When will we see a new leader emerge? Possibly after the conservative National Conference in late September. Personally, I just, I, I’m just afraid I just have a general feeling of dread all the way up to it.

Liz Bates I think, you know, one of the interesting things about the Conservative Party now is it’s going to go through you kind of look at it and think there’s there’s nothing you can do now. You’re everything’s going to fall apart because they’ve been through this like horrendous, general election result. I don’t think they’ve really some of them accepted. Yeah. How bad it was. And we even, you know, we saw this with the Labour Party after that, you know, many now, election losses. Is that you that they say to each other all the time, we desperately need to come together. We need a unity candidate. We need to stop infighting. But once you get to this position where you’ve had a big election, loss, and there’s been so many different factions kind of fighting each other for years now. It’s all like powder keg out in the open. There’s no way to avoid these very public spats, and they’re all going to be fighting like rats in a sack to, you know, take over the Conservative Party. Because if you were left now, I mean, they are now into a period of real irrelevance. So they’re all desperately scrambling now to take power, so that at least they can be, you know, in a senior position in opposition to to hold on to that feeling of, of we still have some power in British politics. So I think that’s what you’re going to see.

Nish Kumar One person who will definitely not be leading the Conservative Party because he’s no longer an MP, is Jacob Rees-Mogg. And his family are about to start. I can’t believe I’m having to read this out. Are about to star in a new fly on the wall documentary series called Meet the Rees-moggs, which promises a never before seen look which I would update as a phrase to never, ever wanted to fucking see in my life. Look, into the life of the Ex-mp, who once said they famously said that he’s never changed a single nappy despite having six children. He said the nanny does it brilliantly. And he said, I’ve made no pretense to be a modern man at all. Ever. He’s, not the first politician to dip your toe into reality television. Matt Hancock and Nigel Farage, did stints on I’m a Celebrity Get Me Out of. Yeah. Why can’t we just let these people fuck off? Why is reality TV obsessed with rehabilitating the reputation? Of some, you know, some of the less salubrious members of our political establishment.

Liz Bates I mean, he scratched the surface of, of the British public and was sort of a bunch of sniveling peasants, really. We have this kind of sick thing where we just love to be lorded over by posh, people.

Coco Khan Speak for yourself. I am a child of the Empire. That’s not too much for me. I would just say if any of our American listeners are listening to this podcast, I have no doubt that Meet the Rees-moggs is going to make its way to America. I know that in America, a lot of British reality TV is quite popular at the moment. And I just urge you, when your friends tell you about Meet the Rees-moggs, just tell them no.

Liz Bates It will be funny. And I have to. I hate to say this as well, but he’s he’s so pleasant in person. You know, I went, you know, I went for lunch with him and he. When I went to the toilet, he stood up as I went to the toilet out of, you know, courtesy.

Nish Kumar I have no interest in lunching with him or watching him on a television program. I wish he would simply fuck off. Well that’s it. Unbelievably, that is the end of the episode. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. We also always want to hear your thoughts. Email us at PSUK@reducedlistening.Co.Uk or drop us a voice note on WhatsApp. Our number is 07494 933444. Internationally that’s +44 7494 933444.

Coco Khan Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, Search Pod Save the UK or click the link in our show notes and hit subscribe to make sure you get uninterrupted pod-o-vision. We’re putting loads more clips and loads more excuses up there. We don’t want you to miss out.

Nish Kumar And we have the last few tickets available to catch us live at the Edinburgh Fringe. We’re doing shows on the 6th and 7th of August at the Monkey Barrel. Find the link in our show notes to grab tickets.

Coco Khan Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Nish Kumar Thanks to senior producer James Tindale, assistant producer Mike Robson and digital producer Alex Bishop.

Coco Khan Our theme music is by Vasillis Fotopoulos.

Nish Kumar Thanks to our engineer Hannah Stewart.

Coco Khan The executive producers are Tanya Haynes, Anushka Sharma, Dan Jackson and Madeleine Herringer. With additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Nish Kumar Remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.