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Ira and Louis discuss Celine Song’s new romantic film Materialists, the best protest films, rude Emmy rules, new Grammys country music categories, Ryan Tedder’s tribute to the U.S. Army, and the passings of Brian Wilson, Sly Stone, and Ananda Lewis. Danielle Deadwyler joins to discuss her new film 40 Acres and the art that inspires her creative process. Plus, an announcement about the future of Keep It.

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Ira Madison III [AD]

 

Ira Madison III And we are back with an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira Madison III.

 

Louis Virtel I’m Louis Virtel, and did you know that summer is coming? Finally, I’m at my full bloom. I’ve been waiting for this moment all year. I’m already white-knuckling, holding on to this moment, not wanting it to disappear. And additionally, I am holding on to what we have here at the podcast in the next couple months, because Ira has a announcement that he would like to make right now.

 

Ira Madison III You know, I was hosting the This American Life, sort of 30th anniversary reunion. And I was talking with Ira Glass about doing a show for 30 fucking years. And I’m was like, how could you possibly do that? And I’ve been doing this for almost nine years. And I remember when I started Keep It on a little segment on Love It or Leave It in 2017. And… Yeah, now I’m gonna be leafing keep it.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, which is crazy. I want to add, first of all, I’ll let everybody be thunderstruck by that announcement right now. I am staying. So we will see what Keep It becomes as I remain, but yeah, we’ve done this podcast since the beginning of 2018. You know what’s crazy is that we have literally spent our entire 30s here. I mean, it’s like truly design of a deck.

 

Ira Madison III To put it in Janet terms. Yeah, and we started with Oprah possibly running for president. We were foolish. And we’ve circled back to a lot of the stuff that was going on when we started this podcast.

 

Louis Virtel Right, true. Well, I mean, it was indeed Trump’s America when we started this, so it sort of makes sense that we would return to some of this. But at the same time, there just aren’t a lot of new celebrities. And so the same people are still offensive all these years later and remain uncancelled.

 

Ira Madison III I’m like, I’m going to be here for like a few more weeks, you know, I am leaving towards the end of July, so you know you still got time to be with me and we’ve had like such a good run. We’ve had so many amazing people on this show too, guests, iconic guests, we have a return guest or two coming back because I guess they had fun on this podcast with us. Who knows what’s wrong with them? You know, we started with… Kara on the show, we had Aida on the Show, who by the way, Ms. Aida Ostman, do you know she’s pregnant? I, what? So she is so funny because this is so typically her. She did a post where she was like, I’m not pregnant y’all, I’m just getting a little fat. And then- Bury her, yes. By the way I’m pregnant. So congrats to her and Earl Sweatshirt who are expecting a baby.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, adore her, adore them, congrats to them. But anyway, we keep getting away from the point. As Ira said, he’ll be leaving at the end of July, but we will be having some guest hosts over the next few weeks, some familiar faces, people who’ve been and keep it before, some new faces, but I will remain a stalwart of the show. Yeah. But anyway we’re not done yet, we still have a show to do, and we have, by the way, an amazing show today. My favorite working actor perhaps, Danielle Deadwiler is here with us, talking about her new movie, 40 Acres. She’s amazing. She’s an amazing interview too. You’ll hear that immediately when we talk to her. But in other sadder news, should we get to one of the most monumental brains in popular music died last week, Brian Wilson, who- Yeah, that hit me. Not a thing was ordinary about that man, and in a way, like… I think we’ve talked about on this show how we kind of resent how a certain type of man is always called a genius, you know, an erratically behaved, you know, creatively productive, but tumultuous guy is always like the prototype of somebody. We all agree as a genius and we never hear like women describe that same way. But I have to say, you listen to the man’s music, the Beach Boys, the crystallized version of Americana he created, literally if we never even got to Pet Sounds, which which is the most monumental. Beach Boys album. If he literally just made fun fun fun and the the singles that proceeded at the Surfing USA type stuff, he would still be a genius because nobody got that transporting magical California thing like he did. Like he didn’t just create a genre of music. He was like an era of music, an era feeling in pop music that I think people have been taking from her generations.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I think that I’ve described the Beach Boys before as like, before I moved to California, when I was still in the Midwest, when I in New York for the first time, listening to a Beach Boys song, especially one that Brian Wilson wrote, you could feel like you lived in California, you could like you fell in love in California. You could feel you died there and you know, spent your entire life there in the span of five minutes of a song. HE WOULD take just these beautiful sounds and make just like the most beautiful sounding sad songs. I think that that’s sort of like a through line towards like a lot of the music I love now. Like I brought up tennis like the other week, you know, I think I’ve really drawn to that sort of like dream poppy West coast, just vibe of music, you know? And I think that I’m. I know there’s so many individual songs from artists that fit that mark, but his music is just so good. And I know everybody’s been revisiting Pet Sounds, but I have to say that you brought up like Surf’s Up, that album from 1971 is a very underrated album.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah. I mean, they’re kind of a band where even if you just buy the greatest hits, like that takes you on a journey itself. You know, the Carpenter’s have that quality where if they’re singing about something happy, there’s undertones of sad. And if they’re thinking about something celebratory, there still, you know, something melancholic about it. And there’s always that like nebulous mix going on in Beach Boys music. I am, I’m somewhat sad that he was not really involved with Kokomo, which I have to say I stand. When people don’t like Kokomo, I’m like, do you not like good times? Do you not the beach? Do you like drinks that are neon colored? Come on.

 

Ira Madison III Also their final song on their last album, that’s where God Made the Radio, Summer’s Gone is just a perfect succinct just summary of their career and all the music that they’ve made. I think it’s like a beautiful song that says sort of goodbye to the Beach Boys. So if you haven’t heard that song too, you should listen to it. And honestly, just thinking about his love of America and you can hear it in all of his music and this sort of like beautiful vision that he created. That you could listen to in his music. I was thinking about another singer who passed recently who also had Americana music, but a lot of it was very beneath the surface. It was very critical of America. We didn’t talk about Sly Stone passing.

 

Louis Virtel Oh my gosh, also like that is just utterly timeless dance music. And also you end up hearing like strains of Slicestone’s music literally in new music because it’s sampled all the time. People don’t know that Rhythm Nation, the Janet Jackson song, as you wear a Janet Jackson hoodie in front of us, is sampled I believe from a riff in Thank You for Letting Me Be Myself that they just like, that Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis like ran again and again and became this whole other song. But truly like. The jams from that band. And also like truly a signature genius, like just like there’s something about like that music where if you put it on at a wedding, if you it on, at a club, it would never be considered square. You know, it’s like there something like legit and instrumental and throbbing about what they did. So there’s a real sexuality to this really mainstream music. And I want to say additionally about Brian Wilson. The weird quality of like all these songs that are about like guys chasing girls at the beach or whatever it could really be music that speaks to only one demographic but the whimsical quality of it made it so universal like wouldn’t it be nice um that could almost be a gay song you know like there’s just like he’s tapping into deeper emotions that aren’t just um belonging to here i am white brian wilson looking guy on a beach in California.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, and I would say the exact same for Sly Stone. He’s making music where he wanted to be, first of all, he had a racially integrated and mixed gender act, which was sort of like unheard of at the time too, the family stone. And I think a lot of it was, you can’t critique America, but you can celebrate it in this way and sort of make it for everybody. You have songs like Everyday People, Family Affair, but then also, there’s a riot going on is a very political album. So, and so many people, like you said, borrow like just how he played, like what his approach to music. So these are two artists who’s like reverbed through music for years and will continue to.

 

Louis Virtel Certainly, certainly. And we wouldn’t be done memorializing if we didn’t mention the great Ananda Lewis of MTV. First of all, that story hit me like a ton of fucking bricks. She is why we do this.

 

Ira Madison III By the way, watching her on MTV when we were younger, like I think that people who sort of don’t have the MTV era right now, didn’t grow up on MTV News, didn’t grew up on TRL, et cetera, just don’t get how that generation of adults in New York, being cool, talking about music, talking to celebrities, talking to pop stars, inspired a generation of people to love pop culture, to want to write about pop culture. Be in media, et cetera. And Ananda Lewis was one of the goats in that era.

 

Louis Virtel There’s something about that that goes very underrated about the TRL era and she was routinely somebody who was, I think she even guest hosted TRL sometimes, but she was first of all, like just a stunning TV presence, just immediate charisma when she would speak to the camera. But I think the thing that was kind of amazing about her was she was always in the midst of this like teen scene that was about being cool, like picking the cool music, ranking the cool, you know, which boy bands at the top of the charts, which pop singers at the bottom of the chart, and she herself was cool, but that’s not why she was doing it. She was like, I’m going to do this job really well and be a serious reporter, like a journalist who can move between like really serious news. You know, she’s somebody who reported on the death of a Leo with, you know, great gravitas. But then also could bring in these loopy, screaming fans on the street and make them seem like a legitimate part of this TV experience or she could co-host MTV Spring Break. Still some of the most debauchery things I’ve ever seen on television And give it a patina of. I don’t know about grace, but like, you know, sort of legitimacy. Everything about her was so primed for television. I’m sad we didn’t get more of her as an on-air personality in the years after that. She did have a talk show and she was amazing as a talking head in that Woodstock 99 documentary we talked about a couple of years ago. And my God, she still had it. She was like, still like bustling with facts and takes. I’m just so smart, she died at 52 of complications from breast cancer. She was very open about her story as it was going on. So if you’re interested in learning about her, you can. But I hate to use the word underrated about her time as a VJ because she was so celebrated also. But Matt, we just should have had more of her.

 

Ira Madison III She was also a mentor to a friend, but Kelly Carter, who amazing journalist who worked at Buzzfeed with me and was sort of like a mentor to me when I was first coming up as a writer. And I think it’s important to remember just how people like that in the industry really guided us towards a great place that we used to be at in media that we really sort of don’t have now. I mean, you bringing up Woodstock. 99 is just reminding me of the fact that like, before we had 9-11 hit TV and sort of like, everyone had to talk about that, even people on like MTV, obviously, cause it’s New York, but it was global news. Before Alias death, I just remember the stories coming out of Woodstock, just like the hellscape that that was, and MTV was just on the ground reporting about it.

 

Louis Virtel Excellent at what she did and again like there was something about those that era of VJs too and I’m of course talking about the great Dave Holmes who was still writing constantly and fabulous to read where they made knowing about music seem really cool you know and casual it wasn’t a put-on it wasn’t pretentious it was just like part of the culture part of how we socialized and part of like a resting sophistication that we can give life and I will definitely miss her.

 

Ira Madison III And not to be fucking like rude now, but that’s what we do, right, on this podcast, but you mentioned sophistication in music taste then, and I’m sorry, that was like, that was the era where you would argue about your music taste, like you were like, you had to have something smart to say about the music that you liked when you were talking to people. It wasn’t just. This is number one on the charts. Like we weren’t arguing that we liked an artist because they were number one TRL, by the way. You had to have a point of view about whether or not the music was good. And also this was from an era too where being that much of a stan, caring about charts, having your room decorated with posters was still weird. Like MTV’s fanatic as a TV show existed because it seemed crazy to be like, Britney Spears is my life.

 

Louis Virtel And like, yeah, she’s taken over and I have no choice in this life but to meet her or I will go unfulfilled. You’re right. Fanatics, one point where they were treated as genetic freaks and we’ve strayed from that. Now they’re just people who run the internet.

 

Ira Madison III It’s like we have so many comic book movies now. Nerds are cool now. Bring back bullying.

 

Louis Virtel No kidding. Again, it’s effective.

 

Ira Madison III And people stay small who should be small. All right, we have the amazing Danielle Deadweiler this week, as we already said. We are also going to get into the new film that everyone is talking about and a lot of people have thoughts about it. Celine Song’s new film, Materialists and in honor of Juneteenth and also coming off of a weekend of protests. The No Kings protest that erupted across the US, across the globe, frankly. We are gonna talk about some of our favorite protest films. Let’s get into it. We will be right back with more Keep It.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III Every cinephile has complained about the death of the rom-com, but this past weekend, past lives director Celine Song attempted to resurrect the genre. Or did she? Because this is a bit of a romantic drama. With her new film, Materialist. And while a stacked cast of Pedro Pascal, Dakota Johnson, and Chris Evans gave critics high hopes, the reviews have been wanting at best. But now it’s our turn, Louis. Are you a materials girl living in a materialist world?

 

Louis Virtel That was beautifully put. Thank you for that. I was at the start. When this movie began, it had a, to use the buzzword of the episode, sophistication among the characters that really set up that we were going to be getting an adult exploration of what it means to date in this moment. And I think actually the movie is successful on that front. It feels like a 2025 dating movie and I don’t feel like we, I have that feeling otherwise and watching anything else right now and it’s nice to have perspective. That feels fresh. As the movie goes on and Dakota Johnson plays a matchmaker who is pretty good at what she does. She makes $80,000 a year and lives in a pretty awesome New York apartment. That feels classic rom-com, you know what I mean? When Madonna’s like a yoga teacher in the next best thing and she lives in up a palace or something. But she gets entwined with Pedro Pascal, who is a sort of mysterious debonair, a little bit older guy. But she has this lingering old connection with this Chris Evans guy who plays a 37 year old. Chris, you’re not 37. That I didn’t believe for a second. Didn’t believe that for a sec. But as the movie goes on, she sort of gets into it with these two guys. And I think the movie ultimately promises a greater sophistication than what we get. I think as the move goes on her romance with Chris Evans never feels that interesting. And I also think there’s a late. Plot twist in this movie that we’re supposed to be devastated by that to me felt completely random and swallowed the movie.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, it started out with sophistication, you’re absolutely right. You see Dakota Johnson at this wedding and can I say, whatever I feel about the movie itself, casting Dakota Johnson in this role is fantastic.

 

Louis Virtel She is a plus. I love her in the movie.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. Yes, I love watching her on screen period. She is why people can sit through that dumb ass movie in Batam Web. I’m sorry, she just has a thing about her on-screen, this sardonic-ness to her, this sort of casual cool. And I think it comes from her as a celebrity too. She’s actually one of the few actors right now who is also giving you classic celebrity. Like, her interviews are funny. She seems like a cool person. You’re interested in her life. And so I think that sort of like plays into the movie as well. She’s chic. She meets Pedro Pascal at this wedding and like it feels sexy. And I feel like the more you start to peel back the layers of this film, the more it unfolds, you sort of realize that, I guess sort of like going on a date, right? Like you feel like there’s all this flash and. Beauty and interestingness and like sexiness in the beginning. And then it just sort of like falls away. You brought up her making 80K a year, which is, yes, it’s funny that she’s broke and living in this fabulous apartment in New York, right? But then it’s getting into a backstory about how like she does not want to end up broke. That’s why she broke up with Chris Evans, et cetera. And it’s just sort of I don’t buy this bitch is broke. At all. Like she’s not giving that at all and there’s a later moment in the film where she’s possibly getting a promotion and it’s like judging from everything that she’s doing in the movie at how she’s reacting, I’m like, we’re promoting her? Like she just doesn’t seem great at her job at a certain point. Nevermind the fact that a potential client, she’s like, fuck it, you know? Like Pedro Paso enters as a potential clients. So she’s bad at her job. She’s not playing broke very well. And also neither is Chris Evans. I’m sorry, like I hate being this person, but who was sort of like this actor who’s famous, can’t play this struggling actor, but he’s a struggling actor who is doing theater, who lives immediately outside of the city. I don’t know where he lives exactly. Like, I don’t know, uptown or something, but I am not buying it. I’m Sorry. I do not buy him as his character. And also We weirdly don’t know anything about these characters. Pedro Pascal, we don’t really meet any of the family members at the wedding. There’s no one in her life. And I feel like the movie for me feels very much like it was plotted out. And then that was sort of the end of it because there’s a moment where… She needs like a place to stay in the film, right? And for plot purposes, she goes to Chris Evans, right. And I’m here thinking, why does this girl not have any girlfriends? Like does she not have a life at all?

 

Louis Virtel Them seem to have lives. Also, there’s something about this movie where like, the three of them are kind of in this vacuum. Basically what you’re saying, like, there’s no other stimuli in their lives really. And what’s interesting is when the movie starts, she basically feels like this Carrie Bradshaw person. And you want that for Dakota Johnson. She feels that way. Like, I’m the main character in my own life, but I’m also funny, a little bit rude, but like, I have a sensibility about the world and you want to explore that with me. That is exactly right. As the movie goes on and, you know, the Pedro Pascal relationship happens, and then the Chris Evans relationship bubbles up again. And that’s another thing, they’ve dated previously in this movie and the previous relationship doesn’t seem that fascinating either. So it’s weird that he’s such a fixture in this move. The flashback?

 

Ira Madison III They hate each other. There’s no point in the movie where they seem to rekindle their love and get over the problems that they had in the previous time that they dated.

 

Louis Virtel And in a way that’s, I guess, relatable, like people just need something to do so they get back together with people they shouldn’t get back to together with. But in this movie it feels a little unjustified and eventually in this move, it devolves into a series of, I would describe them as self-loathing monologs from characters who don’t feel like they’re in this movie. Like who are these people that are suddenly like, I’m a matchmaker and I hate myself? First of all, like this movie kind of has a problem that is rare that I associate with the movie up in the air. George Clooney has this job that to me seems perfectly fine and like somebody has to do And then the movie treats him like you’re supposed to hate him for having this job. It’s like, well, I’m not a part of this because you want me to have some contempt for this person who’s doing like an otherwise, otherwise benign work. Like Dakota Johnson, this movie has this reckoning over being a matchmaker because something goes terribly wrong with one of the clients. And I didn’t believe her reaction to that, whatever happened with this. I don’t want to spoil it, but it’s really gruesome. Uh, eventually she rekindles with Chris Evans while like at the home of this woman who had this terrible thing happen to her. It’s just like that made no sense to me too.

 

Ira Madison III Someone else’s wedding, like, come on, it’s very, you could tell that Celine started as a playwright that she feels good in that space. Also, I believe Justin Kurtz’s, her man, also a writer who did Queer, he did- He wrote-

 

Louis Virtel Here are challengers, yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah. He worked on both of those films with Luca Guadagnino. They’re so interesting to me because his writing is sort of messy and sort of like a little bit unfocused, but the characters just pop and they’re so interesting and compelling to watch, right? And she has ideas that are really interesting. This movie is a lot of ideas. It honestly feels like people are just discussing. Romance and discussing the idea of dating in 2025 in each scene, but then no one went back and did like a character edit, you know? Like they’re having scenes and it feels like something you hear in like an off-Broadway play, but I’m just, when people are giving these monologs, I’m sort of like, okay, but who are you?

 

Louis Virtel Well, it’s sort of like Pedro Pascal, what ends up happening to him in this movie, makes him seem like a one-off Sex and the City character. Like the way he’s dismissed, ultimately. And that’s a lot for the arc of an entire movie.

 

Ira Madison III A bit insufficient. There’s also no real triangle, to be honest. It promises a love triangle. And with how the film is structured, there really isn’t one. Like there’s no point where either of them are competing with each other. And the one scene where Chris Evans and Pedro Pascal are sort of standing next to each other, they don’t even interact. Yeah, it’s weird. They don’t ever speak. At the bar. So it’s like, you also don’t have the added tension of them meeting, which I would say, I enjoyed this film more than past lives, to be honest. It’s a film that just ultimately doesn’t really work for me. I feel like the strength of past lives is a lot of people projecting their own relationship drama onto these characters. Their own slice.

 

Louis Virtel Doors dramas. Yeah, uh-huh.

 

Ira Madison III But at least in that film, one of the most fantastic scenes is when he’s visiting, and then the three of them are in this apartment together, and then they go to this bar, and it even opens up with the idea of someone watching them and trying to figure out their story, right? And I just think that at no point have I’m watching the three of them and trying to figure up their story in Materialist.

 

Louis Virtel I want to add about past lives. It is the only movie I’ve ever seen to nail the awkwardness of having to sit with two people at a bar and talk to them both, literally, without even the tension of you’re with one and you used to be interested in the other. Just if you’re three people at bar and someone’s on the other side of a corner, just like choreographing for a conversation, it is simply all wrong. You know what’s interesting though is, I don’t think I would give this movie a thumbs up ultimately, but I would still recommend people see it because the feel of the conversations in this movie. As you said, she’s a playwright. She lets a conversation linger. She lets silences linger. And so I have to say the feel of this movie is not contrived. Like for all it’s doing to bring back some idea of a rom-com, it doesn’t remind me of other rom-cons. Like it doesn’ make me think of Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan or people like that. It doesn’t reminds me of that.

 

Ira Madison III I think she has an amazing voice. I think he has a great voice. I just don’t think we’ve gotten a definitive Celine song movie yet, to be honest. But I think it’s percolating there. I really enjoy a lot of her work. It’s just not hitting for me yet. And I feel like I need her to get a little messier, you know, a little like, you know a neat more emotion and less ideas in the story. I think people were always fascinated by the fact that past lives were sort of based on their life, I guess, like a romance that they’d had, like maybe there was a third person. And then challengers also explored that too. I’m like, let’s get into the mess.

 

Louis Virtel You’re right, this isn’t really a messy movie other than her past relationship with Chris Evans has like fights that are, I guess gross in it.

 

Ira Madison III And her speeches, by the way, Celine on this press tour, when she’s saying stuff like, people call romance as chick flicks. This is serious shit. When you watch a movie, we don’t all know what it’s like to save the world, but we know what its like to fall in love. It’s the biggest drama in our lives. It’s vital and we need to talk about it more. There’s more emotion in what she said there in that time magazine interview than there is in the movie.

 

Louis Virtel And also, there’s more emotion in the fact that she said she is a stan of the movie Zootopia, which I had not seen, and because of her commitment to this movie Zotopia, I went back and watched. Has pleasurable moments. Excuse me, it is about a rabbit who wants to be a cop. Who would have ever guessed that that is what Zootopia is? I mean, again, this is like, it’s 2016 or whatever it is. Like times have changed. They probably wouldn’t make that movie now, but it is shocking to watch. Oh, you know.

 

Ira Madison III Acab, all cops are bunnies.

 

Louis Virtel I kept muttering it at this rabbit. Ira, that’s simply not true. Biniculas. That’s right. What a reference. Today, the only vicious bunny, and by the way, they’re frightening.

 

Ira Madison III Yes, people might not remember that, but I think we had one adaptation of it or whatever, but that cover used to scare the fuck out of me.

 

Louis Virtel Excuse me, in college, one time I had to work on a project at somebody’s house and they went over there and they had a fucking giant bunny, like a hare, and then the thing, I’m not kidding, galloped at me. It was so scary.

 

Ira Madison III Those things are holdovers from the dinosaur era still. Rabbits are not, should not be in homes.

 

Louis Virtel No, again, it’s like what Pikachu is to Raichu is what the bunnies are to hairs. I don’t need to be seeing all that.

 

Ira Madison III Ultimately, I don’t know if I would give this movie a thumbs up either, but I like her and I like the worlds that she’s creating and I think we’re going to get something hot at a certain point, but, I mean, I never want to suggest that people have to team up with their romantic partners, but even though that’s always fun when artists collaborate and you know that they have some personal relationship. Prior to that, but I don’t know, I think that there’s strengths and weaknesses in both of their writing that it would be fun to see them meld it together.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Especially since, as you said, they have such stark differences. So to see them work together, it’s like, look, I mean, apparently people still like that fucking Barbie movie that Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwig did. So I hope that that’s a beacon for them. Here you go. Wouldn’t be a beacon for me. I hated that movie. As you know, everybody at home, get in my comments again.

 

Ira Madison III They’ve made some great movies together though.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Oh, by the way, if I haven’t touted Mistress America on this show, I love Mistress America.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, Mrs. America, Frances Ha, like sometimes a woman can upgrade you, most of the time actually. That’s right.

 

Louis Virtel A little heterosexuality can go a long way. Not that far, but farther than you think.

 

Ira Madison III I will say lastly though that this movie was, it was fun to hear these talks about what dating is like in 2025 from this perspective of like being in New York and like people with money. And it just like, I want more people writing about this idea of like, I want the gay version of this. I want, you know, I mean, another fault in this movie is it’s very white. And I get the idea of, you know, a artist of color making like a white film, you know for commercial reasons, just because you want to be able to tell a different story. I mean, I love when the Hughes Brothers made From Hell. I thought that was a great film. The Jack the Ripper film with Johnny Depp and Heather Graham. But I don’t know, it’s just a very white film. And I got annoyed at it when Dakota Johnson goes on this rant about how I’m working for these white people, you know? And they’re like, no blacks, no fat people, no poor people, et cetera. And I’m like, okay, girl, but the movie is all white, too. So are we commenting on the movie? And the one black person that shows up is this black lesbian Republican, just as a joke bit. And I was like, Celine, I’m not singing that song.

 

Louis Virtel I gotta say, my favorite scene in the movie is early on, when she has a client who’s about to get married, it is breaking down. And the way they dissect what is going wrong with her and what she actually wants out of the relationship, that is the part of the movie that really teases that you’re gonna be getting an incisive movie.

 

Ira Madison III Very Carrie Bradshaw!

 

Louis Virtel But smart. Yes, that’s what makes you a bit crestfallen by where it goes. Yeah.

 

Ira Madison III It sort of gives like what, and just like that could be. I mean, and Just Like That could be a whole bunch of things. We are not talking about that show since we talked about the premier, you know, and I think- With Rosie O’Donnell, yeah. I just have to say, as much as whatever’s going on in that show and the Che Diaz of it all, somehow, the Hotfella storyline on Just Like That is somehow worse than Che Diaze is like one of the worst things I’ve seen on TV in my life. And the depiction of gay people is so crazy to me. For a show that used to be, maybe it’s like karma for how people used to say the characters were written like gay men in like the 2000s. But this is awful.

 

Louis Virtel I do have to say, I think a non-strength of the old Sex and the City is like, nothing about the Stanford Blatch or Mario Cantone characters ever felt like they weren’t going for the broadest possible jokes, like there was very little nuance in what they achieved with those two characters.

 

Ira Madison III But anyway, materials, worlds, that’s all I have to say.

 

Louis Virtel That was your non-pun.

 

Ira Madison III That you just came up with, that you revisited. All right, we’ll be right back with more Keep It, but before that, some quick housekeeping.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III This week’s guest is a prolific actress that’s booked and busy in every kind of project, from Oscar dramas like Till and The Piano Lesson to action blockbusters like Carry On and her upcoming project, 40 Acres, which hits theaters July 2nd. Now, before Louis jumps out of his damn chair, because he is a Danielle Stan.

 

Louis Virtel Thee Danielle Stan!

 

Ira Madison III Thee Danielle Stam! Please welcome to Keep It, the outstanding Danielle Deadwyler.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Thank you guys, I’m so happy to be here. Just a minute to go lose by the fuss at me because I’m from Atlanta and I’m in L.A. But I’m no traitor, I am a Southerner.

 

Louis Virtel I would say you’ve not lived anywhere else, right?

 

Danielle Deadwyler Not where I mean, yeah. Rooted? Yes. Atlanta.

 

Louis Virtel I know, but I’m always fascinated with these like Joan Cusack type people who are like, I’m from Chicago and I stay in Chicago and you can pull me out whenever you get a chance, but i’m going to live where I live.

 

Danielle Deadwyler I’m a hint like that. Yeah, I went to school elsewhere. I did a bid in Vancouver, a bid and New York, but I always come back home because I don’t know. It’s got a hold on me.

 

Louis Virtel But I mean like I’m impressed by that. Is it like difficult to like decide you’re going to stay one place when you know you’re I guess typically though maybe more things film in Atlanta than in LA nowadays.

 

Danielle Deadwyler No, no, I think everybody’s in a bit of a flux right now, everybody’s in a flux, because everything’s moving abroad, quite frankly. But I don’t know. I just came up or my career shifted at a time when the Internet became everybody’s friend in a whole other way. Self tapes were booming at a certain at a at that point. And I had like this weird old school and new school experience of being like, oh, come to LA to test for this thing or getting jobs or not getting jobs based off of being asked to come and have an in-person engagement as well as being at home and being considered as a result of the projects that I had been a part of that had gotten, you know, big publicity or whatnot. And things just moved from there. But that also enabled me to really hone myself as an all around artist, being at home and being with family and being with that very Southern root of artistry gave me a certain uniqueness to myself. And then people started telling Southern stories. Ha ha ha ha

 

Ira Madison III You win. Now this movie, 40 Acres, is a bit of a Southern story because it takes place on a 40 acres. We know what that means. We’re talking about generations of family who have had to fend for themselves on this farm in this sort of post-apocalyptic drama. What was it like? Where did this film, first of all, and then tell us about coming to this project?

 

Danielle Deadwyler Yeah, it was a strike project. It got a waiver during that time. I was pulled in maybe two weeks before the start. And our T. Thorne, our director, we had a conversation and I just had happened to be really honing in on what does it mean to have and care for family land, to be attracted to honing one’s legacy and. Digging into the rooted ways of, you know, particularly black cultural ways, food ways, you, know, farming and, and, and just how do you care for land? Right. And this is a story that is she’s a Southern rooted woman, but has, you. Know, taking her herself and her family to, uh, to the, to the North, to Canada in order to escape apocalyptic happenings in America. And, you know, we all know 40 acres and a mule. Spike has kept that refrain in our head and R.T. Hit it best in saying that we’re trying to get to, he wanted to imagine the future of what it looks like for people who were denigrated at a certain time and on a certain land and how they would handle that future in a black and indigenous family and the ways that they have prospered as a result of the apocalyptic time or And so that’s, I think that’s what he’s getting, he’s digging into, not to mention, you know, the generational tussle between the mother and son and how that roots into the other children and just what it means to blockade one’s heart, to blockate one’s family, one’s sanctuary and the implications of that as well. So, you now, a lot of themes that are being explored, but at the root. Some real Octavia Butler parable of a sword type.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. I was thinking about what like distinguishes you as a performer and I’m looking through your educational past, I realized you’re also like a history major and I realized like in almost everything you do there’s an immediate time and place to your performance. Like you will never be accused of having iPhone face in a period piece. Like this one belongs in this story. And I was wondering like, is that like is that educational background like really help you one when auditioning for this stuff like proving that you kind of know, you know, whether it’s like the piano lesson or till or what or in a movie like this, which takes place in the future, but still feels like it has a real dramaturgs touch to where we are in time and space.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Mm-hmm. Um, um, um. IPhone face is hilarious. I try, I don’t bring my phone to set, right? Like, it’ll be there, like my son is 15, so I need to know what’s going on. When you’re in hardcore stuff, you need to stay present. And history, they ain’t got no iPhones in the apocalypse of the future. They ain’t no iPhones in 1930s Pittsburgh. They don’t. And that’s just not interesting to watch. You know, people do that, even if they do have a phone in a show. It’s just critical to know the milieu that you are a part of. It makes the character development richer. It makes, the feelings and sensations that you have richer. You’re always responding to the world around you in conjunction with the thing that is right before you. So, um, I, yeah, it’s just, I thought I was going to be an academic and I lied to myself. But I mean, that knowledge has been critical in my ability to explore the world of art in the way that I have. So yeah, it’s a part of the rigor of the exploration.

 

Ira Madison III If you thought you were going to be an academic sort of like what path were you taking and then what swerved you to being like, no, it’s acting now.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Well, see, it’s always been acting. It’s always art in general, like dance was my first medium and that’s a natural and inherent segue into doing theater. I knew like my mom’s, one of her best friends was a visual artist. And so I was, Atlanta, I’m coming up, I’m looking at all this, you know, it’s a black arts Mecca. And yet I didn’t. Uh, my, my childhood brain didn’t say, oh, this is a thing you will do. It was just kind of like, oh this is just a part of your every day. And so I’m like, okay, I gotta go be a teacher or something. I gotta, I was like, Oh, let’s teach on the collegiate level. That’s prestigious and blah, blah, and along the way I was just like something’s after coming out of there and doing plays, uh, in the midst of those, you know, those different educational tiers, I came out and I taught for two years, fourth and fifth grade. And something was missing, right? And then I auditioned for a play in Atlanta for Color Girls, Jasmine Guy directed it.

 

Louis Virtel Oh my gosh.

 

Ira Madison III Oh wow.

 

Louis Virtel We also stan her. She comes up a lot.

 

Danielle Deadwyler It turned the switch back on, right? It was just like, oh, I am supposed to be doing this thing. I am going to do art in this way and in all these other ways for the duration.

 

Louis Virtel That’s interesting to me too, because in addition to your history background, you also have done a lot of performance art, and you have a creative writing degree too. So as a performer, and now, I mean, looking at your Wikipedia, you were literally in five movies last year as an actor.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Was I?

 

Louis Virtel It’s a lot.

 

Danielle Deadwyler They came out?

 

Louis Virtel Yes, they were all out. Do you ever feel like you’re like devoting all your attention to one of the arts to just acting is like I don’t know blocking off all these other things you want to do too. Like can you ever be satisfied basically?

 

Danielle Deadwyler No I can’t. No I feel like I just try to keep moving in the same way that I’m just interested in being relegated to one particular genre and people make an assumption, oh you do a lot of this. No, no. I’m doing a bunch of things. I am curating a certain kind of an exploration of a figure. That figure happens to be myself as a black woman and digging into all kinds of things within a special digging into what does it mean to be. A matriarch, what is black womanhood, motherhood, how does that experience ebb and flow? I’ve explored that obviously in this apocalyptic world of 40 acres, to piano lesson, to teal. I’ve looked at it in performance art as well. Well, self-portraiture and visual art and then performance art, like on the streets of Atlanta and. You know, I’m just trying to curate a well-rounded experience. I mean, there will be comedy forthcoming. There will be more action thriller, what not, more historical. I think it’s just about a dynamic movement of what does it mean to be in this body. And I’m pretty sure I’ll get back to animals and abstract weird shit too down the line. Like I’m trying to. Look at the full scope of the human slash being experience. And we get to change, we get the shift, we get be queer as fuck, we to be boxed in. Like what are those, what is the full spectrum of this experience? So that’s what I’m trying to get at.

 

Ira Madison III When we first meet you in 40 Acres, it’s such a phenomenal, you know, entrance. You love a great entrance for like a heroine in an action movie, right? Like this is just, this is a baller entrance. What sort of characters or other inspirations, I guess, did you draw upon for this character when you’re getting into a head space of, you now, like I’m about to play a character like this?

 

Danielle Deadwyler Uh, I don’t necessarily think about other characters. I think about What what what they want? What does hailey want to keep? Cannibalistic evil motherfuckers off our land Um, and by doing it any at any means necessary Oh, so, you know, if I think of anything, I’m thinking of sometimes historical figures like a nanny figure, a Caribbean figure with that machete in her hand, right, with a hint of martial arts, right? And so just to learn how to flip that mug up and slice the hell out of, you know, things, that’s what’s moving me. The audacity of somebody to come on my, you know, to impose, that, you You know, not another cinematic thing, because we want to have a fully unique experience. I know like filmmakers do a referential image making and the storyboarding when they make a film, but or putting it together, but I want something fresh and that tends to come in the form of like, what is the heat in my body coming with?

 

Louis Virtel It’s interesting that you say that because when I think of you in the movie, Carry On, which is one of the more kind of traditional genre movies you’ve been in, like that is an action movie. But what you do in the movie is not normal. And that character, like there’s a specific scene in a car that everybody who has seen that movie will never forget about.

 

Danielle Deadwyler What a warning!

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. It’s not just the choreography of that scene, it’s what you are doing in that scene. When you look at a script for something that is, you know, an action movie, do you like have the confidence that you’re going to bring something basically new to the genre when you when you work within it?

 

Danielle Deadwyler I looked at that script and said, oh, I want to fight in the car, oh sure, I’ll do it. I mean, I’m looking for uniqueness in the script so that I can have the ability to feel like I can. Like choreography is just inherent, like to me, it’s, I mean like I said, dance is my first medium, so I wanna do something deeply, deeply physical. Uh… We you know it whether it’s uh… Character that is the refining or not like the things how somebody moves what they do have a hunch you know that that bodily arm that bodily fit energy of that character is going to be in there so i i do uh… I do want to bring something unique and you want to be a tick i do wanna bring uh… Uh… But she’ll or he to to to whatever i do But yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that’s the bulk.

 

Ira Madison III As someone with such a wide variety of, I guess, arts that you participate in, that you’re interested in, what are some things that you find yourself returning to? Whether there’s plays, whether there’s books, films that you love, like, watching, re-watching.

 

Danielle Deadwyler I’m a big Toni Morrison fan. I come back to her all the time. I think Sonia Sanchez said in the documentary on her, like, I think it’s important that you come back to, you know, Toni every year. It’s, you’re gonna learn something. I’ve read Sula multiple times. I listened to God, God bless the child. God help the child, multiple times, rereading jazz.

 

Ira Madison III Jazz is my favorite, the opening of jazz is so electric. Like that’s how you open a book.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Okay, she’s just an indelible figure, right? In our lives, what does it mean to be in this place without having to incessantly name this place and without having too incessantly. Balance our experience according to any colonialist, you know, purview, like it is purely about what’s inherent in the inner workings of us. Okay, so Tony, what else I go back to? I mean, I got playlists that are just for me, that are a certain quality of emotion that I meant to, which is very much rooted in jazz music. What else, what else? I’m trying to think of more, but those are definitely pinnacle kind of things that I moved through.

 

Louis Virtel Forty Acres included, you are such a clear virtuoso of family dramas, piano lesson. The minute you appear on screen in piano lesson, I don’t know if it’s like the look on your face or something. It’s like jolts, we’re in, like it’s, like the drama is already occurring. And of course, Till is simply devastating in addition to being rad and empowering What happens with that?

 

Danielle Deadwyler You didn’t say a woman in the yard!

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, yeah, which you produced. Yeah, I want to be clear that Danielle just threw her head back at that and clapped.

 

Danielle Deadwyler No, I know y’all have feelings, but… Oh my god!

 

Ira Madison III She was in that yard. That’s true.

 

Louis Virtel She stayed in the yard. Yes, actually she did it. She moved around that house, moving on. She lied. I was just going to ask what your favorite family dramas are.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Geez, um, that’s funny. Can I say something weird? I come back to family, not in the traditional nuclear family sense. I’m thinking of the chosen families. So I’m being of the whiz.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, hell yes. Love the wares.

 

Danielle Deadwyler That’s people who would come together, right? Who are all, I need, I, need, I need but it’s really, I needed you, I need you, I meet you. And I mean, the Lord of the Rings one. Folks who are choosing each other. I see something about me in you and I’m independently of mind making a choice to go on whatever the hell this journey is with you. I find those family dramas compelling.

 

Louis Virtel Fuck you out of that. Also, more people need to be talking about Nipsey Russell. I’m sorry. The name is like lost to society. I miss him.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Yeah, no, Nipsey as a name is pretty divine, right? Yeah about the beauty of Nipsey Hussle here in LA and how integral he was for the community. And like, Nipsey Hussles, like the man did anything like with the knees and the dance, right? Like in that way, that’s some body work. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! What are you doing?!

 

Louis Virtel Ha ha ha ha!

 

Danielle Deadwyler Why are you going so far back?

 

Ira Madison III We are rarely screamed at that’s so exciting. I love theater so I love that play.

 

Danielle Deadwyler I got you too, because I’ll be back there sooner than later.

 

Ira Madison III Okay, good.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Love, love, love doing that piece. Like this, just the, the respectability of the character, right? That I played and then to like come out with such a voraciously nasty word. Like, I mean, that’s what I meant. So like you get to hear it instantaneously. Like how, how audiences are breathing in or, or halting their breath or reacting, leg. Viscerally to anything, like that’s critical. Yeah, deconstruction, let’s do all the things. I’m here for all of it.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, yeah, for a performer with such, you know, like you are so good at going intense, oh, deeply, you know? Like, I mean I have to imagine the difference in doing that on a set versus on stage is the one you enjoy more. Or do you have moments where you’re like, you’re on set and you’re, like, you can feel like the crew, like the people around you, like sort of intensely feeling something. I have imagine for like till or something too.

 

Danielle Deadwyler I think that is interesting. I don’t have a preference, but I know I’ve always been taught that you get better with theater. And so, I mean, that’s just my love, right? And I have to return and do so in various ways every year. But you can audibly hear and feel with a theater audience and not so much with film and TV. They got to be Try it! And so I know that if, with intensity, right, there’s a stillness that occurs, but the energy of a room is quite palpable. You know, I think different crew members have articulated after a production how something has felt to me, right? And, cause I don’t know in the midst of, I’m. I’m wiped out and if somebody and if they’re really in it and they care, then they do leave you alone because they care because they’re watching the work that you’re doing and I’m and they are, I have to be clear that they are a part of that experience with me because they are in the room because that all of our energies are critically interwoven and connected. It’s the same thing with, you know, what Octavia Butler speaks about in parable, right? God is change, everything that you touch touches you. And so that’s what is happening now in the world. That is what happens in a room together, whether you’re making a film or a television show or smoking a doobie and watching and talking shit or whatever, all of that is really critical in any kind of artistic experience that happens for me.

 

Louis Virtel I guess basically my last question is, I think you’re such a spontaneously creative person as is exhibited by this very interview, I just wanna say. But coming up as a movie star, where you are dealing with, I’m just gonna say, largely brain dead people, and you’re not that. Who have you actually connected with as movie actor to movie actor? Who do you, for lack of a better term, vibe with in the industry?

 

Danielle Deadwyler Uhhhh… A lot of people!

 

Louis Virtel Oh, you do? Okay.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Oh, you’re not

 

Louis Virtel You’re not lying to me.

 

Danielle Deadwyler I’m not lying to you!

 

Ira Madison III Ha ha ha ha!

 

Danielle Deadwyler You know what, I think that’s been the issue that we’ve had in American society, right? Like we haven’t locked in on the multiple intelligences of people and not just this idea of academic or book smartness, right. And so I think I’m really interested in that, right, like that. What is it? Street intelligence, street knowledge, it’s valuable, right? Just because your granddaddy said it, or the current granddaddies are, you know, say things like, I went to the school, the hard knocks. Yes, you did, that’s really wonderful. And then what else, right, like I think valuing the way folks come from, the spaces that they come from. I think taking all of that into consideration is what’s important. It’s not just this upper elite prestigious thing that is important. What is happening in the middle, what is happening, and I don’t even want to put it on a tiered thing in that way. It’s a circle. What’s happening on this quadrant in the what is it, 270 to 360, you know, special? What’s happening in one to 90 degree special? What’s in the 90 to 180? Like, let’s get all the hell around the 360 degrees so that everybody can have value because they inherently do. Uh um that’s i think that’s where i am right now but i do love a reader that’s kind of critical it’s like are you just as interested in how people are thinking or thinking deeply right and thinking deeply is beyond thinking deeply from a book thinking deeply as i’ve been very critical and observant of whatever the hell my environment is from a you know from a jumped into a silver lake or whatever. Like how do you really assess every quality of an experience? And I think I wanna connect to people like that and people who don’t blockade others out. Yeah, but I got homies. Hehehehe

 

Ira Madison III That’s good. You’re all in the yard together.

 

Danielle Deadwyler We are out in here!

 

Louis Virtel Danielle stays in the yard. Yes. Danielle, thank you so much for being here. And if I do say so myself, it’s not just that you’re an awesome actress, you are a sick actress and whatever you do, we’ll be watching. So I’m so excited you stopped with us today.

 

Danielle Deadwyler Thank you so much.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you to Danielle Deadwyler. 40 Acres hits theaters July 2nd. We’ll be right back with more Keep It.

 

[AD]

 

Ira Madison III This past weekend, over five million Americans spoke out against Trump’s heinous reign during the No Kings protests. In support of their efforts, Lewis and I created a watch list of the best films that encourage revolution, freedom, and every other right Trump wants us to forget. But first I have to say, I loved the fact that the organizers of these No Kings protest all across America did not have a counter protest in D.C. Because you just got to see how pitiful this man’s military birthday parade was. Gray tanks rolling through the streets. It was gray pride. These shots of Marco Rubio, of that walking bottle of vodka, Pete Hegseth, just like looking uncomfortable, sitting there, pissed off. Like, isn’t fascism supposed to be fun if you’re the ones running it?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, no, I mean like literally looking in the eyes of these people as much as they act like brown nosers to Trump or are brown noses to Trump, ultimately they don’t know why he is the way he is or why he’s operating this way. They are just toadies with no backbone and you could see it in their eyes the entire time during this pitiful, I call it the Macy’s no Thanksgiving Day parade. It was also so strange like who wants to watch like a tank with like a little head sticking out of it. It’s not really what a parade is for. I’m just just theatrically. There’s like it gave very little. There were some people holding like as they walk down the street holding models of planes as they walked by like, you know, like your three year old as he like, walks into the birthday party. It was so sad looking. And by the Of course, Trump was so sad looking. He sat there seeming to not know. Why he was there, you know, real Melania shit from him.

 

Ira Madison III I mean, when you think about, I mean this isn’t a protest film, but it was a musical that was on Broadway a couple years ago, Here Lies Love, the David Byrne, Fatboy Slim, play about the Philippine First Lady, Amel De Marcos, at least that’s what it was describing a dictator, right? It was. There was just flashy clothes, they were spending a lot of money, they were dining with American first ladies and like celebrities and stuff. It’s just like the fascism, the dictatorship here, they’re stealing money, obviously lining the pockets of billionaires, stealing it from real Americans, but everything just feels so gray and ugly and nasty. I just think that there’s no class to this. Scheming, this purloining of money from America, and that somehow makes it even worse.

 

Louis Virtel How blatant it is. How blatant and boring. Literally like this man has a new fucking product every day. He’s allegedly coming out with some mega version of an Instapot, which is like, who wants Trump to be a lifestyle maven? It’s so strange. She wants to be one. Like she wanted to be on QVC. Yeah, no, which I think we could have trapped him there and like Aladdin’s bottle sort of way, like figured out a way to like funnel him that direction. Look at his website. It like is like. You can buy a Trump jumper and like just all these fucking like nonsense products. It’s such a Strange gambit. Um, I don’t mean to say that what is happening isn’t terrifying And I actually don’t even mean to apply that anything about him is funny whatsoever. Um I in fact get really testy when Far lefties say things like but you have to admit like he there is still something funny about him I watch clips of this man every day for my job I met rehearsal at jimmy kimmel watching clips of trump every day And I guess there are people probably teeing at some of the stupid things. He says it’s not funny I mean, it’s just like, it truly, we’ve heard it time and time again, his one strength as a leader is never seeming embarrassed. And in a universe that is obsessed with things being cringe, it is like, well, congratulations, you elected the one guy who never cringes, so your values are spelled out for you right there. But anyway

 

Ira Madison III To go back to also to what we talked about at the beginning when we started this podcast, right? It was in the first Trump era. And I feel like a lot of things that people are discussing about him, like when they say he’s funny, right, they were funny in that first Trump Era when he was running, when he first president before like we descended into sort of the hellscape we’re in now and everything, you know, like we weren’t watching genocides unfold. On our smartphones at this point, we weren’t, you know, seeing countries bombing each other.

 

Louis Virtel Or ice, like throwing people into cars or whatever, yeah.

 

Ira Madison III Like you’d seen you were seeing this stuff and it was kind of humorous you could admit that but He doesn’t even have it there now anymore. He is not even giving the same trump that he was giving before It’s like it’s exhausted. It’s tired. It’ Pure evil this time and it’s just not there’s nothing amusing about it whatsoever

 

Louis Virtel It’s also giving like his personal death rattle. Like he knows that he like, you know, he just turned 79, but like, there’s this like, fuck it, I’m dying. So everybody else should do like true narcissism shit, you know. It’s giving exit the king, okay? It’s Ian Esco. Oh my God, rhinoceros, what a play. Anyway, speaking about protest films, the first thing that came to mind for me, is The Times of Harvey Milk. Now you could go basically through the history of documentary and find things that are just as powerful. I feel a bit like I’m cheating by doing Times of Harveymilk. But I think something that is awesome about that movie and it’s an Oscar winning movie from the 80s, Oscar winning documentary, not only does it sell the personality of this man who was just had such a magical quality as he walked around, you know, the Castro in the 70s, the first openly gay supervisor in the city of San Francisco and how he really got people up on their feet and made people participate and made people who had otherwise never felt seen even in San Francisco feel like they were a part of a movement that they had a reason to be alive. It really captures everybody else in San Francisco too. There’s something about like all the talking heads in that movie that are so informed and have personality and I’m sorry returning once again to that buzzword sophistication. Like people had a resting sensibility about life that they expressed really well in that and it added to the… Insane tragedy of his eventual assassination. That movie to me is way better even than the movie Milk, which we got in 2008 where Sean Penn won an Oscar, and it is a fabulous performance. But if you want true power, that makes you want to get up and get in the streets and represent yourself and the people around you. The Times of Harvey Milk is probably my number one.

 

Ira Madison III I love that documentary. I watched it last year. I think it was on Criterion, but it’s on like Max and Hulu now. It’s so fantastic. It’s good watching him, you know? It’s just like, it’s just sad that he like died. It’s like he’s still here, yeah. I was thinking about Harvey Milk this past weekend too, because I went to, for part of the Tribeca Film Festival, Sam Fragoso, his podcast, Talk Easy, he interviewed Sam Rockwell. And it was interesting to hear Sam Rockwell talk about his upbringing. His mom was an actress, and his dad was sort of like a union organizer in the Bay. When he talks about having like met Harvey Milk when he was like eight, you know, in the bay and just sort of, like, you just forget that there are so many people who were involved in that period of history. I would say the same, I thought about that when seeing Purpose on Broadway, Like, you get stories very much about someone who was alive during like the MLK. Stuff and the Selma marching. And that also was just something that’s like not that far back in history. And I would also suggest Selma as a movie to watch. I’ve revisited that film. I had a lot of like mixed feelings about it when I’d first seen it, but I don’t know. I think it just really does work and it sells exactly what it’s supposed to. And it feels just of the moment and current.

 

Louis Virtel Two other movies that make you want to organize, I think. Norma Rae, of course, comes to mind. That’s a movie about- No, please. I mean, there’s something about Sally Field in that movie. I think it’s just her instant relatability. Like, she feels like somebody you would otherwise just run into in life, whatever, at the store or something. And to see someone like that really rise to the fore and like realize their own power is just extremely powerful. Like, you realize that these exalted images we have of people who make change. You still have to do the mental homework of realizing the real people, like I do. You know what I mean? Like I need to be reminded that that’s doable. And I have to bring up the movie, Till, with our guest today, Danielle Dedweiler. I think the magical thing about that movie is this tragedy befalls this character, the mother of Emmett Till. I’m sure you’re all familiar with that horrific historical event. But her resolve in the movie. How this anger and this just the Sisyphean task of life basically for this woman, turns into methodical action she can take, that she devises, that she like solves, how she becomes like more honed in and acute and unwilling to waver from her goals because of what happens to her in this movie, feels so human, it’s so like, right, like I get how that woman can be that person even though she is clearly extraordinary and a force.

 

Ira Madison III A film that I want to highlight is one of Steve McQueen’s earlier films, Hunger, starring Michael Fassbender, and it’s set during the 1981, I believe, hunger strike in Ireland. You know, it’s sort of the tail end of The Troubles. And if you’ve not seen this movie, I think more people have probably seen Shame with as well, but god, this movie is so… It’s a hard watch, but it is so good. And I think that Steve McQueen is just a fantastic director. He does sort of, it’s sort of his visceral and hard to watch as 12 years a slave is.

 

Louis Virtel And by the way, 12 Years a Slave, even though it was the best picture winner, somehow feels underrated to me now. Like, I feel like there’s this resting idea that it won because it was the most brutal picture. Lots of awesome characters in that movie. I’m not saying this is a protest film. Unbelievable turns from people. Lupita Nyong’o obviously won the Oscar, but Sarah Paulson in that movie, girl, that is an unforgettable performance. And also my friend just said she saw Sarah Paulsen in Palm Springs hanging out with Cleo Duval last weekend. And I just want to say that I am jealous because that seems like a fun trio, me and those two. I also thought when you said Steve McQueen, you met the other Steve Mcqueen. I was like, oh, I hope we can talk about Ellie McGraw next. We don’t. Bullet, one of my favorite.

 

Ira Madison III Obviously, Daniel Deadwiler brought up Spike Lee in the interview and I would be remiss if I didn’t bring up Malcolm X.

 

Louis Virtel Everybody in that fucking movie

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, Denzel is just, he is so just amazing, you know? And on screen, he’s electric. I’m excited to see their upcoming movie, Highest to Lowest, which apparently could be their last project together, since Denzel keeps talking about retiring. But this is Denzel Washington. Is retiring gonna give Elton John farewell tour?

 

Louis Virtel I don’t think he’s like Daniel Day-Lewis who sits at home and I think reads poetry all day. Denzel’s too antsy. I don’t see it for him.

 

Ira Madison III That’s obviously a definitive Spike Lee film. It’s a definitive Denzel film. It’s definitive film about Malcolm X and the civil rights movement. It’s so good. And I just want to do a brief aside about Denzel. I feel like not enough people have seen this movie because I’ve been bringing it up the past few weeks and people don’t know it. In the context of Zoran Mamdani who is running for mayor in New York and looks like he’s going to beat Cuomo. Which is fantastic for the city. And if you’re voting next week, remember, rank him first and don’t rank Cuomo at all. But his mom is Mira Nair, who is this like amazing filmmaker who did Monsoon Wedding. But also, do you remember Mississippi Masala?

 

Louis Virtel Yes, oh yeah, that’s one of those movies I watched because I saw Siskel and Ebert talk about it. In fact, I do most things because I see them talk about it first.

 

Ira Madison III And yes, we’ve talked about that before. If you rewatch old episodes of theirs, you’re always gonna find this random film that people don’t really talk about anymore.

 

Louis Virtel Starring huge people.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, right. That was great. This was a film that my grandmother had on VHS. So I think probably just cause Denzel was in it, but it is so good. And also the love interest in that film is Seema from And Just Like That.

 

Louis Virtel Come on, life, bringing us back to SEMA.

 

Ira Madison III It’s a romance and it’s just, it’s from 1991. It’s romantic drama. Speaking of like the materialist and shit, but it’s so good and people should revisit that.

 

Louis Virtel No, that’s an underrated connection between Zoran and his own mother. You would think that would be talked about way more often, but the fact of the matter as for movies should be talked way more about often. Also, he was a rapper.

 

Ira Madison III Briefly, if you don’t know that. I don’t that. He has a song and video that was in the Queen of Katwe soundtrack and Lupita Nyong’o is in the video.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I remember one of the five live action movies we allowed Lupita Nyong’o to make. That was a good movie, Queen of Cotton. One more movie that I don’t even need to say anything about if you haven’t seen it. Great protest movie, How to Survive a Plague. I mean, that’s gotta be one of the greatest documentary accomplishments of the past 15 years. So go and see that.

 

Ira Madison III Also a law room thing, The People Vs. Larry Flint is a very underrated film.

 

Louis Virtel Why didn’t Courtney Love act like 10 more times after that movie? She was Golden Globe nominated, she was on the path to an Oscar nomination, didn’t happen, but she had the power. She was like so compelling on screen.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, and that is a rare courtroom drama that does it well. Take that trial of the Chicago Seven. That movie sucked. Okay, we’re not doing that again.

 

Louis Virtel No. Ha ha ha ha!

 

Ira Madison III Ha, ha, ha.

 

Ira Madison III I wonder if I re-watched it, I would probably not like it then, I think it hit, wasn’t that during lockdown? Yes, very much so. I think I was just happy to be watching some.

 

Louis Virtel I was still playing Molly’s game and Aaron Sorkin wanted to move on to this shit.

 

Ira Madison III All right, when we are back, it’s our favorite segment of the episode. It is. And we are back with our favorite segment of the episode.

 

Louis Virtel Well, first of all, keep it to the fact that you’re leaving Keep It. I mean, Ira’s just one half of Keep It, she should be on Keep It anyway. Congratulations to whatever happens to you, but of course, Keep It to this very moment. Now to my real Keep It- This is Regis and Kelly. I know. Imagine if Kelly just got up there and did standup. That’s how it feels right now.

 

Ira Madison III You’re going to be joined by a football player.

 

Louis Virtel Wow, that’s too bad for me. Carl Nassib is gonna join you. My Keep It This Week is awards related, and more importantly, it’s me related. Okay, so I sort of had banked on the fact that Pop Culture Jeopardy, which I wrote for last year, would get me my second Emmy nomination, because I don’t know if you know this, in the best game show category at the Emmys, they also nominate the writers. So there’s not a specific game show writing category. I was all psyched for that. Did you know that Pop Cultural Jeopardry is not eligible for the best games show Emmy? Because there’s a rule, and I didn’t know this, as somebody who cares about awards, you can only have one game show in a franchise nominated for the award. And I looked at the- Yeah, it’s bizarre. I’m an Emmy voter, so I’m looking at the list, and only Celebrity Family Feud is nominate-able, and Family Feude isn’t, for example. Now, let me say something. I feel like this should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I understand- that like Wheel of Fortune is the same as Celebrity Wheel of fortune, literally just the kinds of contestants change. But when it comes to something like Jeopardy and Pop Culture Jeopardry, where it’s truly different types of questions, a completely different sensibility of the trivia, different amounts of contestants, a whole different host, et cetera, I felt like special consideration should have been placed. They’re just not the same show. And I’m sorry. I do not want to be stuck with one Emmy nomination. I’m sorry, it’s just not that cool. You want to see multiple credits when you go to the Emmy profile for Louis Fritell and such different things, right? I was nominated for writing the Oscars and then you would see me on a game show. Now let’s think about being a future employer. You’re looking at that, you’re like, who is this? Well, that’s exciting, he must be gay. And then they go and hire Louis. Anyway, now it’s going to be this one fucking thing. Maybe Kimmel will get in this year since we’re in a different category, but I’ve been burned before.

 

Ira Madison III Tell that bitch Ken Jennings to sit this year out.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, that’s the craziest thing. You can nominate hosts from the same franchise. So both Ken and Colin Jost are both nominatable hosts this year, but not for the best game show category. So specifically I’m being discriminated against. They did this to hurt me. And let me just tell you something, it worked.

 

Ira Madison III Where’s your sign, Louis Ray?

 

Louis Virtel Me taking to the hard streets of Clever City around Sony Pictures Studios.

 

Ira Madison III Speaking of awards, I’m gonna do an extra keep it to the Grammys. They’ve split the Best Country album into Best Traditional Country and Best Contemporary Country, which they say is something artists first asked them to do years ago, but the timing is giving lies.

 

Louis Virtel They’re basically like best Beyonce country album and non-Beyonce country album for the real country people. I’m sorry, it seems hostile.

 

Ira Madison III That’s nasty. That is like really, how many letters did they get and how many of them were from? Who’s an angry country person?

 

Louis Virtel I’m gonna say Toby Keith is long dad. I made sure of that. So it has to be somebody else.

 

Ira Madison III Really? I’ve still been getting letters from him.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I’m going to say, are the letters themselves literate? Because who? Cares this much about this distinction. There are also so many traditional Grammy categories already. It seems bizarre to ask, there’s like traditional folk, et cetera. So it feels weird to add that, or like roots music, things like that. Wait till she does act three with rock music.

 

Ira Madison III Fix that category too.

 

Louis Virtel Are we almost sure that it’s rock music?

 

Ira Madison III It better be.

 

Louis Virtel It does feel like if this is like a triptych, it needs to be something that is not the same thing as the other two. So that does make sense thematically, but I just don’t know what, like, I kind of see her doing a jazz album at some point,

 

Ira Madison III But I kind of want like that Tina Turner vibe, you know, like maybe like eighties, maybe some glam rock too. That would be so much fun because I’m also thinking about someone who attended the Cowboy Cartel Tour, attended Renaissance. And the fun part about it too is dressing up and seeing people’s outfits. The cowboy looks have been great. You imagine like everybody dressing in like glam rock, shit, Tina Turner style outfits. It would be great for us. As gays, by the way, because I am sick of seeing faggots in cowboy hats.

 

Louis Virtel Let me just tell you something, because you can come across that stuff cheap. And I’m not saying like, I’m saying you have to spend a lot of money in order to go to the Beyonce concert and look like you fit in. But man, you can go pretty mall brand on that and it looks like it sometimes.

 

Ira Madison III The party’s city had it. The Party City Cowboy hat and then all the brat stuff. I know I’m gonna be inundated with it on Fire Island this summer still. So give us a new era to tap into Beyonce.

 

Louis Virtel What is your regular keep at this episode?

 

Ira Madison III Well, speaking of Beyonce, one of her former collaborators who did her dirty by writing the song, Halo, and then giving Already Gone to Kelly Clarkson, Ryan Tedder had something to say about the anti-Trump protest. And now this is Ryan Teder, songwriter, producer of the band One Republic. He’s currently all over Tate McCray’s music. He wrote… On Instagram, I love when someone takes to Instagram and like not notes that they took to Instagram and type this out. In the big like block font they give you. I have around 20 family members and grandparents that all fought in wars from the Revolutionary War. You can put actually in parentheses after that. Like, okay. As opposed to figuratively, okay, yeah. Like, it’s unbelievable, by the way, that past generations of someone in America’s family fought in the Revolutionary War. Like, that’s kind of the point. Through to World War II slash Korea. All politics and parties and righteous indignation aside, it’s a super bummer that instead of celebrating the 250th anniversary of the U.S. Army and all of those who have fought and died on our behalf, we’re protesting. I haven’t been a card-carrying political member of either side for 20 years. Ooh, congratulations. Yeah. You did it. And think at this point, everything is absurd, 99% of the time. Oh, how perceptive. Brilliant take. Yeah, brilliant. Everyone’s zany. Go ahead. But I’d like to say thank you, all caps, one word, to all of the Army service members active and retired and those who have given their lives to protect our freedom, dot, dot dot, to protest. First of all. How many active duty people follow Ryan Tetter on Instagram?

 

Louis Virtel And want updates from him.

 

Ira Madison III You’re right, okay? How about you go find a studio and drop some beats, okay. That’s all we want from you. I’m not even mad at this, to be honest. First of all, it was a reminder that Run Tether exists and it’s just so.

 

Louis Virtel Stupid and also to look at like the occasion of the 250th army anniversary and be like Like Trump had his eye on the prize like he would he almost did something great, you know, whatever it’s like no He’s using the event of the two hundred fifty at the army anniversary to celebrate himself and the idea of himself in power So stop pretending like this like just went awry or something and we were being silly by protesting it It was one of the most protestable events in recent history

 

Ira Madison III Okay, if we were really celebrating the 250th anniversary of the army, by the way, we’d be spilling a lot more tea. Okay, If anything, RuPaul’s Drag Race celebrates the origins of this country every week. Yeah, right.

 

Louis Virtel And where some of them stay, remain, yes.

 

Ira Madison III Um, I was mostly mad about this too, because I was like, well, first of all, I don’t give a fuck about halo. So I was, like, I’m not listening to that. I’ll protest.

 

Louis Virtel I’ll continue to do what I was doing, not listening to Halo.

 

Ira Madison III I was pissed because I was telling my group chat, oh, so I have to like not listen to Stop and Stare, which I kind of love. It’s a great song. That era of One Republic was so good. I also remember All the Right Moves, All the right places, whatever the title of that song is. I remember it playing when Olivia Palermo was walking away in a dramatic scene in the city on MTV. So like, I love that kind of music. And I was like, well, fuck, I’m not listening to it, right? And I was like, let me listen to it one more time. I had that song on repeat as I walked to the materialist and on repeat, as I walk back, it’s crack, it’s Crack Cocaine. Now I’m not at him because now I’m streaming this song.

 

Louis Virtel And a mad at him. Well, let me tell you something. If you need a different version of crack, there still remains fat, juicy and wets. Is that your song of the summer? You know what? Yes. I mean, honestly, and also by the way, Sexy Red just as a character, bringing it. I mean if you go lyric by lyric through that song, addicting in its own, but then listening to it, titties on your forehead, titties on your chin, tittys on titties with my big titty friends. Dr. Seuss wishes.

 

Ira Madison III We’ve gotten a lot of, people are still commenting on that Instagram post, by the way, with their songs of the summer.

 

Louis Virtel I know, I really set off a revolution, Norma Rae style.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, no one’s really hitting it. Although someone did suggest Last Girls at the Party by The Beaches, which is a great song. I’m also loving a new album by Turnstyle, but that’s like punk rock, and that’s not gonna be the song of the summer. That’s the song on the revolution.

 

Louis Virtel Happy to, Man Child, for being the number one song in America right now by Sabrina Carpenter. Not my favorite of her songs. It’s a fine song, yes.

 

Ira Madison III I will say, by the way, we didn’t talk about it because I’m over talking about Sabrina Carpenter’s album cover.

 

Louis Virtel We should have gotten into that, unfortunately. What the fuck are people talking about? It’s a funny album cover.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah. It’s just, I think that she is, she’s Taylor’s daughter because you know what? She turned all this talking and controversy into a number one song. Yes. Right. Which is.

 

Louis Virtel Exactly the point. I hate generalizing Gen Z, but it feels like some of them are unable to like, take the joke of calling an album man’s best friend, and then she’s on all fours looking, you know, comically to camera. It had to turn into this whole sex shamey thing.

 

Ira Madison III But also he feels like he’s even less Gen Z and more like millennials too, who just want to write like thick pieces about it, and go viral on Substack or something.

 

Louis Virtel That’s all we’re capable of doing. We come from the era when, you know, Huffington Post might have had a space for you and we still believe in that.

 

Ira Madison III It always goes back to Arianna Huffington.

 

Louis Virtel Ah, miss her, and yeah, and the way she pronounced Fs.

 

Ira Madison III All right. Well, that’s our show this week. As you know, I’m still here for a bit. So don’t go anywhere.

 

Louis Virtel And we’ll be navigating what that means and what the podcast will be looking like. And again, I’m taking suggestions, which as you know, is not really my thing.

 

Ira Madison III If you haven’t been listening for a while, now’s the time to tune back in. Yeah, tell your friends. Yeah, listen, I know Leah is gonna be talking to Danielle Deadwyler about it.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. Hello to Leah and maybe Leah alone.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you to Danielle for being here, for being awesome, and that’s our show.

 

Louis Virtel We’ll see you next week.

 

Ira Madison III And don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And, if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Louis Virtel Keep is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Bill McGrath. Our associate producer is Kennedy Hill. Our executuve producers are Ira Madison III, Louis Virtel, and  Kendra James.

 

Ira Madison III Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gajewski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centeno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.

 

Louis Virtel Our head of production is Matt DeGroot and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

 

Ira Madison III And as always, keep it as filmed in front of a live studio audience.

 

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