In This Episode
Donald Trump brings his particular brand of terrible speeches to the billionaires and bankers at the World Economic Forum in Davos. Nish and Coco try to work out how Keir Starmer can keep on track when the US President never does, following his latest UK bashing over a lease deal with the Chagos Islands – which the US had previously praised.
Liam Thorp, the Liverpool Echo’s Political Editor, is on hand to break down Labour’s big plan to make homes warmer, the fortunes of Reform and the latest delay to the Hillsborough Law
Plus comedian Alaa Shehada, fresh from his show ‘The Horse of Jenin’, talks to Nish and Coco about the ‘Palestine Comedy Club’, a documentary which follows a group of Palestinians as they take their comedy show on tour in an occupied state.
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Liam Thorp – Political Editor, Liverpool Echo
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Alaa Shehada – Comedian
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TRANSCRIPT
Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK, I’m Nish Kumar.
Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan. Keir Starmer is having a busy week as he tries to keep Trump from totally losing it over Greenland, as well as his new obsession, the Chagos Islands.
Nish Kumar It would be nice for the UK’s prime minister to have a bit of time to actually run the UK. So is the government’s new warm homes plan the kind of policy to help Labour tackle the rise of reform? Nigel Farage is collecting disaffected Tory figures like Trump collects other people’s peace prizes. Liam Thorp from the Liverpool Echo will give us his insights.
Coco Khan Plus, Palestinian comedian Alar Shahada is with us to discuss his latest project, which shows the reality of trying to do a comedy talk in an occupied state.
Nish Kumar And of course, we’ll be dealing with all the news about Brand Beckham.
Coco Khan All of life is truly here.
Nish Kumar This is expressly against my wishes. Donald Trump rolls into the elite money club of Davos today, having had, even by his standards, an insane week. We have no idea what’s going to come out of his mouth. Here he is addressing world leaders. So bear in mind, this is happening after we’re recording. So I literally have no ideas what the fuck I’m teeing up here.
Clip We probably won’t get anything unless I decide to use excessive strength and force, where we would be frankly unstoppable. I won’t do that. All the United States is asking for is a place called Greenland.
Coco Khan Now, Elite’s letter revealed that he is blaming his threats to take total control of Greenland on the Norwegian government’s decision to give the Nobel Peace Prize to someone other than him. A letter, which is full of the usual Trump inaccuracies bullshit, shows the leader of the free world has the self-control of a toddler who’s got into the Jammie Dodgers once more.
Nish Kumar He’s managed to get it wrong, not once, but twice, because not only is that an unfathomable excuse for threatening to invade a country, it’s also an independent committee that decides where to award the prize, not the Norwegian prime minister.
Coco Khan Normally, when someone is that wrong, it doesn’t really matter. You can kind of ignore it. But Trump’s inability to understand basic facts is impacting us every day. Keir Starmer had to start the week dealing with the threat of massive tariffs on the UK and EU after a different Trump tantrum.
Nish Kumar We are very repeatedly critical of Keir Starmer’s leadership of the Labour Party and this country. The only time where I feel he’s completely powerless to manage what’s going on in front of him is when Donald Trump becomes involved. What I would say is that as soon as Trump came into office, he had started saber rattling about Greenland. So maybe actually we shouldn’t have been as caught cold by this as we have been. Sky News’ Mark Stone has reported that in a weekend call Starmer managed to get Trump to calm down a little and admit that he might have been misinformed and jumped to the tariff threats too quickly. Now, obviously that’s an interesting development. It doesn’t seem to have translated into any public pronouncements. Trump continues to saber-rattle about tariffs on European countries that have sent troops into Greenland. There is this strange thing that Stammer said on Monday where he said that, you know, as part of his reasoning for not threatening retaliatory tariffs. He said that this thing needs to be done in a kind of reasonable grown up way. But that’s not taking into account who he’s trying to negotiate with. You’re not dealing with a reasonable person. It’s like trying to explain string theory to a toddler. Like it’s unfathomable what he’s trying to do. I keep reading op-ed pieces by written by, I think, you know, well-intentioned journalists that are, you know, asking questions like, is this the end of the rules based international order? What the fuck are you talking about rules based international order? It’s like somebody trying to give etiquette lessons to a man who’s currently dunking his balls in the soup. It doesn’t make, it doesn’t, it does make any sense or it just feels like there is a total fundamental disconnect between everything that Donald Trump is saying and the high-minded questions being asked by people who write op-eds and to be honest, a lot of the front bench of the Labour Party at the moment.
Coco Khan I listened to an interview with Darren Jones yesterday and he was actually trying to talk about something else, but you know, as is the case, just Donald Trump just takes over every single conversation when we want to talk about the news of the day. And he was trying to say, look, actually Britain’s really good at diplomacy. We’re doing diplomacy behind closed doors. That’s what they keep saying. It’s really hard to have confidence in that though, isn’t it? Like that feels a little bit like, do you remember when Labour came to power where they were like, we won’t tell you what we’re going to do, but we are going to to do some cool things. Just trust us. This whole like just trust us thing, it’s just not working. I’ve become very, very frustrated with it. I do want to mention though that Nigel Farage is missing Prime his questions to possibly hang out with his MAGA friends at Davos. Despite criticizing the meeting of these financial elites for years. Funny that, Nigel Farage, he’s always like, oh, these elites, they do things. But then as soon as he is invited, what is he doing? Richard Tice says it’s a chance for Farage to speak to Trump about the terror threat in Greenland. I guess we’ll really see how close they actually are.
Nish Kumar He’s repeatedly criticized Davos as a meeting of globalist elites or whatever. Insert phrase he’s got from some bot on Twitter here, but he’s there right now. And Nigel Farage has always been, you know, an insider within the establishment who’s managed to sell himself as an insurgent. And in that way, he is very Trumpian. You know, Trump is a sort of property dofam from the kind of New York elite who has sort of, again, sold himself as a kind of… Champion of the working man. Unsurprising that Trump and Farage have found themselves as kind of political bedfellows because there is so much alignment in the way that they present themselves publicly. Richard Tice has talked up the idea that Farage might have Trump’s ear in these particular conversations. I think any time I hear somebody say that they have a kind of ear with Trump or they have Trump whisper thing, I always think you’re about to get sold some fucking magic beans. Like you’re naive beyond belief. And, you know, we talked to Tommy Vitor on this show. A couple of weeks ago and he said that there were a lot of leaders like Claudia Scheinbaum from Mexico and Mark Carney in Canada who are getting results often by standing up to Trump and they’re getting results in terms of pushback but also they are seeing domestic bumps at home in polling data. I think that the line Stammer is trying to draw is possibly politically inadvisable but also it’s perilously naive to think that you can reason with Donald Trump. And people keep refusing to take the things that he’s saying at face value. You know, we kept being told he’s not going to invade Venezuela. Look at where we are now. He has been talking about Greenland for almost the entirety of the last 12, 13 months, when he says things like we will have to take it or we will have to do it however we have to. We should probably start taking him at face of value and the next phase of conversation has to be. What happens if U.S. Troops land in Greenland? You know, Emmanuel Macron has called the tariffs unacceptable. He’s actually at Davos and we should shout out his incredible choice of sunglasses. He has gone full aviators.
Coco Khan Incredible.
Nish Kumar Full Top Gun.
Coco Khan And so they’re reflective and therefore you cannot see his eyes, which apparently is the intended point. He has a non-serious eye condition. He was red and puffy. He didn’t want people talking about that. Rather, they wanted him to, you know, people to listen to what he was saying. But I think this is a lesson for all of us who are nightlife lovers. Who among us has not worn sunglasses on the first tube home? Reflective, add that extra bit guys, reflective.
Nish Kumar Legally, we can make no pronouncements about what Emmanuel Macron may have been doing the night before. He had to give the speech, but aviators are quite a good way of covering up your eyes if you’ve hit the claret a bit too hard. Listen, the row has got very strange in the last few days. Trump called the British decision to return the Chegos Islands back to Mauritius an act of, and this was in a truth social post, so it was in all caps, great stupidity. And you know, let’s face it, he is the expert in great stupid. But it was less than a year ago that he, as U.S. President, backed the deal during Stama’s trip to Washington. So he’s decided to have a complete U-turn on this. So the UK has controlled the Chagos Islands since 1965, when the UK purchased the islands from Mauritius.
Coco Khan So the Chegossians have been split over this new deal under which the UK will lease the islands from Mauritius through a 99 year arrangement while also keeping control of the U S UK military base on Diego Garcia. So that’s the largest of the islands. Mauritious attorney general has responded to Trump’s criticism stressing that it still expects the deal to go ahead and that it should no longer be subject to debate that has really been agreed. The US backed the deal when it was signed. The US Secretary of State said Trump had expressed his support for the monumental achievement and said the deal reflects the enduring strength of the US-UK relationship.
Nish Kumar Critics of the deal say it potentially opens up the region to China’s fishing fleet, which the country uses to gather intelligence. The deal is in its final stages of making its way through parliament. Trump’s criticism of the deals has been jumped on by Cami Baden-Ark and figures within the reform party who were critical of it to begin with. Again, it sometimes feels like we’re wasting our time when we point out that Trump has been hypocritical.
Coco Khan Mm.
Nish Kumar Because it sort of suggests that we’ve set a standard that he has shown no interest in meeting whatsoever. You know, I remember in the kind of 2000s, there was a real vogue of trying to point out when politicians were being hypocritical. Trump lies moment to moment.
Coco Khan Yeah, yeah.
Nish Kumar So it does feel a bit redundant to say, well, actually, I’ll think you’ll find you said that you were in favor of this. He doesn’t give a fuck. He will literally say whatever is going through his head at that moment. He has no problem in contradicting himself. I mean, I think that there is a really serious conversation to be had about how the kind of international community reshapes itself around a US presidency that has no interest in engaging directly with it and is in certain instances, going to be a hostile actor in those kind of international conversations. And organizations like the European Union, a country like ours, needs to start having conversations about what this looks like. We’re just a year into this presidency. There is still three more to go. Maybe more. We currently don’t know, again, if we’re operating on a policy that we believe things when they said directly to us, you know, Just a couple of weeks ago, Steve Bannon was talking about Trump, that this is not a problem that we can just sort of wish away. We need to have difficult conversations, I think.
Coco Khan Yeah, I think it’s also worth mentioning that he’s using what he has now decided is this this Chegos deal, which is stupid as a another one of his reasons for why he must own why they must own Greenland. I mean, that word own, there’s apparently they’re saying this is, you know, you can’t trust the UK, they make terrible decisions. Look what they’re doing. And that is also why we need Greenland, because only the US can actually make these sound decisions. I mean, it must be so… I can’t imagine how scary it is having to deal with this man that you have no idea what he’s going to do and then have that realization it’s not only what he’s going to, but also what he has done and all of that being reneged on, that is obviously very unstable and very, you know, it must be really hard to work with, but at the same time everyone’s facing it, there’s surely, surely more that can be done by colLabourating with our European people also struggling basically with him.
Nish Kumar You know, our friends, my friends in the States, that is the kind of exhaustion of it because they just, every single day, they don’t know what he’s going to do, what he is going to do next. You know there are ICE agents running around US cities. These are people armed with very little training in some instances. That I think, you know, is really exhausting. And if you want to hear a sane American perspective on the Trump tariffs, head over to our sister pod, Pod Save America, where Jon, Jon, and Tommy will take you through them. Now, thankfully Keir Starmer has managed to get one potential win on the board this week with the long-awaited warm homes plan which will release £15 billion of funding to upgrade homes in England.
Coco Khan The plan includes specific help for those on low incomes, protections for renters, and the government hopes it will lift up to a million people out of fuel poverty. There’s also a separate 1.5 billion fund for devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Nish Kumar Talk about this and a couple of other key issues. We’re delighted to be joined by Liam Thorp, the political editor of the Liverpool Echo. Liam, welcome to Pod Save the UK.
Liam Thorp Thanks very much for having me. It’s an honor and a privilege.
Nish Kumar That is, that is a huge claim, Liam.
Liam Thorp I mean it, I mean.
Nish Kumar I don’t think anyone’s ever been honored to be in my presence before, whether in real life or on Zoom.
Liam Thorp Nish, ever since I saw you attempting to be a local journalist, I’ve been inspired.
Nish Kumar Ha ha ha ha I’m a huge inspiration to local journalists everywhere. Liam is referring to a show called Hold the Front Page, which is available on the Sky TV and Now TV, where me and Josh Whittaker have attempted to be local journalists. And I think it’s fair to say, showed how difficult the job of journalism really is.
Liam Thorp Everyone tells us that they could do this job better than us and I think you proved that that’s not true.
Nish Kumar Yeah, I think that was sort of the aim of it because Josh actually did a qualification in journalism and I think he was trying to make a kind of satirical point about how you can learn all the theory, but it’s very different in practice.
Coco Khan So Liam, let’s talk about this warm homes plan. What stands out for you?
Liam Thorp You know, this has been, I think most people would have to say, a government of disappointment so far. I think anyone who was hoping to see real radical change from the Labour Party has been met with not that and a lot of screeching U-turns and frustrations really. So on something like this, and obviously we’re just getting the detail this morning, so I will need to see more and more of it, but it feels positive that there is some big decisions being made on this and some big. Numbers behind them. So, you know, 15 billion pounds over five years is not to be sniffed at. We all know that this kind of issue, these green issues need to be tackled. Well, we don’t all know. Most reform-led councils don’t believe in it at all. But I think what this is doing is it’s putting the green agenda, it’s combining it with the cost of living agenda. And if you ask anyone in any part of the country, really, what the big issue is, I think cost of living is the top one. And I was advising the of government. I tell them to stop talking so much about immigration and to talk about the cost of living because that is still the biggest impact we’ve just seen today, inflation going up. We know and certainly in regions like the one I cover here in Merseyside, many, many people are in different kinds of poverty, including fuel poverty, which will obviously be attempted to be dealt with here. And when I speak to people about the green stuff, about, you know, obviously trying to help with climate change, a lot of people say, well, you that’s not really something I can focus on at the moment, I’ve got to put food on the table. And what this is doing is saying that, yes, by helping with the climate agenda, we can actually also help with your energy bills, with your, you know, coming out of fuel poverty, with making your life easier. And I think it’s been a long time coming, and I think that’s really important. And if you look at the reaction from the sector today, from energy and from finance, it’s being largely welcomed. Don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t always go far enough. You know, there will be some people that will be sad to see that there’s no plan So. Phase out gas boilers and really wean ourselves fully off fossil fuels. But I think helping people to install, whether it’s heat pumps or solar panels, that will actually help their bills and selling it as a saving for them rather than a altruistic move for the planet is the way to go, really, because people are still really suffering.
Nish Kumar It’s also been welcomed by Generation Rent, the campaign group for renters’ rights. This is their response. It’s important for both renters and the climate that the government is raising the basic insulation and heating standards for rented homes. We look forward to working with the department on giving renters who are eligible for support to improve their home, the assurances they need to apply for it. Liam, 1.6 million children live in private accommodation and are suffering from cold, damp or mold. Is there an argument that this 15 billion pounds is not going to be enough to deal with? Eye-wateringly large number.
Liam Thorp It’s really sad to say, but there’s barely a day goes past in this job as a regional journalist that we don’t have someone coming to us in a desperate situation, living in a rented property, mold dripping through the ceiling, cold, often with children, and they really feel like they have nowhere to turn. There’s very little in terms of council housing in the country, so people are forced into the private sector. And unfortunately, there are many landlords who don’t obey their responsibilities. Many do, but plenty of the ones that we come across don’t. People just don’t really feel like they have any say in it. So at least including them in this plan and making sure it’s not just for people who are home and it’s for renters as well who have a right to live. They’re just as much right as anyone else to live in warm, safe homes, I think, as a start. But as you say, Nish, it’s obviously not going to tackle or address that massive, massive systemic issue that we have as part of our widespread housing crisis in this country, but it’s good to see renters involved.
Nish Kumar After the break we’ll ask if Reform are just becoming the Conservative Party and we’ll also be asking why the government has put the Hillsborough law on hold with Liam.
Coco Khan [AD]
Coco Khan So next up, let’s talk about reform. So the Reform Defection Party, which let’s call it that for now, apparently has come to an end. They had trailed a move by a Labour figure. They were really banging on about it. We’re going to get a big name from the Labour party. It failed to happen.
Nish Kumar Yeah, Nigel Farage has been talking it up, but we understand, or certainly the public pronouncements they’re making about it currently are, that it’s been delayed until further notice while the party focuses on the threats from Trump to impose tariffs over Greenland. I mean, again, in terms of the stories we’re seeing from across the country, I’m pretty sure a lot of the people living in reform-led councils would rather they were focused on things like bin collection and not increasing council taxes rather than what Trump is doing about Greenland, but anyway, let’s not get too far in the with that.
Coco Khan Also this, oh, we’re delaying it until we can focus on this. Well, I thought you were best friends with Donald Trump, Meghul Faroo. I’m trying to get you to pick up the phone. Anyway, over the weekend, there was a move by Tory backbencher, Andrew Rosendale, to the Reform Party who are not really the conservative party, they promise. So is this more evidence of surging support for reform or is the party just becoming a target for, to use what a Liberal Democrat source said, a career politician worried about getting a P45?
Nish Kumar Liam, what do you make of these, this sort of spate of defections? Obviously the most high profile so far being Robert Jenrick.
Liam Thorp I actually think it’s becoming a big problem for Nigel Farage. At one point you are the insurgent, you’re outside of the noise. I mean, I don’t agree with this because actually I don t think Nigel is in any way what he tries to portray himself as and what he quite often successfully does do as being outside of that elite. But that’s the image that they want and that’s that they’re finding successful at the moment in terms of this insurgency into the traditional two party situation. But if you’re just Bring it on! All the Tories from the last 14 years, from the establishment that you apparently are here to disrupt, then that’s a bit of a mixed message really, isn’t it? Because Robert Jenrick sat there alongside Nadav Raj saying that the Tory’s broke Britain, and I’m like, it’s that Spider-Man meme of pointing at the other Spider-Mans. You were literally the guy who was there throughout all of this. And voters aren’t stupid. I mean, they’re going to start to realize, hold on, are we just re-electing the Torys? A couple of big hitters, a couple of defections probably worked for them. Now it seems like it’s the Tories and reform and I think that will be a problem for Frouge because you can no longer be the big bolshy outsider when you are just bringing in guys who were in the cabinet, who were ministers, who were serving in the party that was in power for 14 years. There is no establishment party like the Conservative Party and if you’re filling your ranks with them, then that’s a big part of your message, I think that is. Is weakened by that. I don’t know how much further it will go. The thing about reform is they’ve probably always got to factor in that they’re going to lose a few people to suspensions at some point. So they’re probably bolstering their numbers on the basis that they’re gonna lose a fee to some sort of scandal along the way as well. But I think this could become a little bit of an issue for them.
Nish Kumar I mean, I think two things there. I was in a car that was driving past Dulwich college, uh, three days ago. And I have to say, which is famously when Nigel Farage went to secondary school. It didn’t seem like it wasn’t elite. It just from just, just driving past the acreage. Dulwich College’s sports field. It didn’t seem like it was very far outside the elite and also, you know I think we’ve restated this the last couple of weeks You know listening to Nadine Zahawi’s speech, listening to Robert Jenrick’s speech about the state of this Ravaged country that has been completely destroyed and is on its knees I would be absolutely livid with the party that has run the country for most of the last decade and a half If I was in Robert Jenrick and Nadine’s position, I’d be trying to find out who was in charge It’s all very you know I think you should leave hot dog sketch like it’s all very we’ve got to find the guys that did this. I guess the advantage to reform is that they can make the case that they’re bringing in people who have experience of government. They have experience a fucking up government but experience is experience. But is there also a problem that you know Nigel Farage is the big name he is the draw of reform. Is there a threat to him that he’s bringing in some certainly in Robert Jenrick relatively high profile figures from the British right.
Liam Thorp Yes, and I don’t think it’s as much a threat for him as it is a threat for them really. I think anyone amongst us will predict that Jenrick and Farage will at some point have a massive fallout and it’ll all go horribly wrong and it will be obviously delightful to see. And Robert Jenrick has made really no secret of his, of his ambitions. He is this kind of has brazen about that. I mean, so much to the point of leaving his defection speech on the photocopier if reports of each be correct. You know, you’ve got someone there who is very much, very much up, very up for climbing the ladder wherever possible. And now you’ve got Nigel Farage, as you say, this kind of godfather figure of reform. He’s not going to really tolerate any of that, is he? And I predict fireworks along the way. One thing I saw someone tweet the other day was, how many more defections until Ed Maybe just randomly by accident becomes the leader of the opposition. Because the Tories’ numbers are just wilting and wilting by the day, aren’t they? So you could have an accidental change of opposition there. It’s worth pointing out that on my home patch here in Merseyside, we’ve had quite a lot of defection from councilors as well. And as you would imagine, most of this happens from former Tories. So in the Wirral, just off over the water from Liverpool, we had three councilor who were formerly conservatives who’ve gone to reform. Don’t think people were too surprised by that. However, elsewhere in Merseyside, in St Helens, we had a councilor who’s defected from the Greens to reform, which is about as random a political journey that I could ever imagine. I’ve asked him for an interview to explain to voters who voted him in as a Green Party counciller to explain why it is that he’s now representing Nadir Faraj’s reform. So far, he’s yet to respond.
Nish Kumar Get an interview, you can write a whole book about somebody defecting from grades to reform.
Coco Khan We just want to know who hurt you, man, who hurt you. So how far do you think reform are going to go in the upcoming local elections based on what you’re seeing?
Liam Thorp Where the green to reform journey was, was in St. Helens, which is in Merseyside, it’s very different from Liverpool where I am now. It’s a post-industrial town. A lot of jobs and industry have gone from that area, and that’s the kind of place where we are seeing reform do well. We have seen them in the last local elections. I expect them to do very well in places like St. Helen’s this year in May. It is a kind of classic Labour-run town in the red wall. Labour have pretty much held the council for most of the time since it was formed in 1974. Having spoken to everyone on the streets there and to council people, I think that reform will at least be the largest party, if not take full control and I’m sure you guys are aware of the idea of Merseyside, particularly Liverpool, is not somewhere that you would expect generally for right-wing populism to do well and I think it shows that they finding inroads into all sorts of areas. Mainly because people are disaffected, mainly because people feel a bit left behind. When I was on the streets in St Helens talking to people, what really kind of surprised me was that there wasn’t like massive love for Nigel Farage, but they were so, so fed up of establishment politics and I have to say incredibly negative about Keir Starmer and the Labour Party that they just felt it was ready time to give someone else a go and I sort of tried to casually point to them that it’s not just giving someone ago it’s… This is an extremely potentially divisive politician that could be quite dangerous for a lot of people living in this country, but this kind of slightly blasé approach of like, we just need to give someone else a go.
Coco Khan There’s been so many stories about Nigel Farage and how, how awful he is. What an awful guy he is and it does feel like nothing can stick to him. Is that the impression you get as well?
Liam Thorp Certainly coming away from that vox pop with people in St. Helens, I did feel that way. I felt that there were people saying that even though they didn’t really like him, they found him a bit unpalatable and, you know, there was one guy who said he totally believed all the reports and the allegations of racism when he was at school and things like that, but it didn’t necessarily change his view that it was worth giving him a try. And I found that quite depressing, really. People don’t necessarily like Faraz, they believe some of the stuff they’re reading about him but they’re so anti this Labour government, and I’ve been frustrated with this Labour Government. I think most people probably have been. From my perspective, Keir Starmer’s quite a sort of bland leader. He doesn’t provoke too many strong reactions. But for some people, it’s just pure hatred, but they don’t seem to feel that in the same way towards someone who is coming in and saying that he’s going to cancel indefinitely to remain for some of the people who’ve lived here for a long time or disrupt families, all that sort of stuff. I find it quite hard to believe, but I guess that is kind of part of the point of populism. Reform don’t have a record to defend. So far, they haven’t really had to do much except for such out from the sidelines. My fear is that that will carry them into power on a national level and it’ll be too late by the time we start to realize how poorly they will be able to govern, and they’ll already be there.
Coco Khan Now, on Monday, the government pulled the final debate on the Hillsborough law. This law, of course, is named after the terrible disaster which occurred nearly 40 years ago. In April 1989, a fatal crowd crush occurred during a FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. It led to the deaths of 97 fans and it remains the UK’s worst sporting disaster.
Nish Kumar Liam, what’s behind this delay? What’s going on here?
Liam Thorp The Hillsborough law bill, which as your listeners may know, is basically designed to force public officials to tell the truth. A lot of people would say, well, why do you need a law to do that? And unfortunately, there’s so many examples in this country, from the post office to the infected blood scandal, to Hillsborough, to Manchester Arena, where we know that families who have just been unlucky enough to be caught up in something so tragic have faced Lies. Smears, obfuscation by the state, by public bodies on their route to try and find the truth and justice. So we know it’s needed. Keir Starmer has promised it time and time again to the Hillsborough families here in Liverpool. And it was a really historic day when we got to go into Downing Street for the day that it was first going to be laid before parliament. However, it then has to make its way through the House of Commons, on through the house of Lords, before it gets royal assent and becomes this historic bill, which we all believe it will be a historic epoch defining bill, really. It could really change the way that the country works. The families always said there was going to be hiccups along the way. They believe that there are organs of the state and the establishment that don’t really want this change because they’ve been used to operating on their own terms for so long. Unfortunately, kind of right towards the final stage of the House of Commons, we’ve hit this big hurdle. To put it succinctly, It’s about the intelligence services, it’s about MI5, MI6, GCHQ. And how they will be governed by this duty of candor, the thing that forces you to tell the truth at things like inquests and inquiries. This is particularly sensitive for the families of the Manchester Arena bombing because we now know that members of the intelligence community did lie about what they knew about the attacker in that situation when they were asked about it. So that’s why it’s so important. However, from the government side they say it’s really delicate because if you are a spy and you are being called to an inquiry or. An inquest or something like that, they say there can be bits of information that just simply cannot be released because of national security. And so they inserted this amendment, which basically meant that the head of that service would have the discretion to say on this occasion that information shouldn’t be released. But now if you’re the families, you’re thinking, well, we’ve been lied to so many times before, how can we trust that that head of service isn’t just going to use that power and that amendment to their own backs.
Nish Kumar For context, for listeners who might not be fully aware of some of the details of this, the police initially blamed the fans, they fed false stories of drunken hooliganism to the press. There was an infamous Sun front page that alleged that Liverpool fans had, and this is a direct quote, urinated on the brave cops and picked the pockets of victims. A 2012 independent panel found that 164 police statements had been altered. This is direct interference. By the state. It’s an institutional cover-up. And I think, Liam, I think you’re so correct to bracket this with the post office scandal and the infected blood scandal and discuss it as part of a pattern of institutional coverups within the British state. Ian Byrne, who’s the MP for Liverpool West and has been a long-time campaigner for the law said, it’s imperative that any legislation leaving the Commons is truly worthy of being called the Hillsborough law before it proceeds to the Lord. Would you say that that is a and then anger that this thing is being delayed as it is a real burning desire from everybody who’s been campaigning for it for so long to get it right.
Liam Thorp You know, Ian speaks for the families. He is their parliamentary representative. Ian was at Hillsborough. He knows about this more than most people. I’m sure you’re aware of Margaret Aspinall, whose 18-year-old son was killed at Hillsbrough. This law, unfortunately, won’t help the Hillsborough families because they have tried every avenue now, and whilst they got to the truth through the panel that you mentioned, Nish, and new inquests in 2016 which found that their loved ones were unlawfully killed, they’ve never really got justice. No one’s been held. Criminally accountable. So they reached the end of their journey on that front. So everything they’re doing now is about changing the country for others so that other people don’t go through what they went through in their decades-long, you know, 30-plus years fight for truth and justice. Because at the end-of-the-day for them, this will be the ultimate legacy for the family members that they lost and for them in the fight that they’ve had. But most importantly, they wanted to stop other people going through the same thing as they did in can get it over the line it will be a historic day. I do believe that the Prime Minister wants to get this done, you know, he’s promised it several times, he has a relationship with the families, he speaks to them a lot, but ultimately, as far as I’m concerned, if the Hildbergh families support it, then we support it and everyone should.
Coco Khan This event happened such a long time ago. 1989, that’s near enough when I was born. So there’s a risk that some of these families might age out and never actually get what they’re looking for. We’ve seen that across the board. We saw that in the Windrush scandal as well. That seems really horrible. The reason I mention this is because I think if you’re not familiar with it, it’s important to say that Hillsborough is an open wound for the people in those areas. I know you were saying earlier about people hate Keir Starmer. Presumably this is not going to help his reputation in these areas.
Liam Thorp No, absolutely not. And every time I report that there’s been a delay or there’s been a difficulty, of course, people immediately blame the Prime Minister. And, you know, Ian Burn said to me on the phone the other day, well, he’s the Prime Minister, he can sort it out. And I guess that is true. But you do also have to look at all these other elements to it. In my opinion, this is trying to get a complete rewiring of how government works over the line. And and there are parts of government that… Are resistant to that, definitely. We’ve seen it earlier in the process, we’ve seen it with the Treasury and other parts, and I do think that the Prime Minister has driven quite a lot of this through. This definitely is the biggest stumbling block so far because he’s obviously been being very much spoken to quite seriously by the intelligence community about national security. The families reject that, by the way, they say that this bill will actually strengthen national security, it won’t affect it. But yeah, you’re right about the open wound. I mean, you only have to come to Liverpool and you will everywhere that people are still deeply traumatized and deeply moved by Hillsborough. The Sun newspaper for example is boycotted in the city, nowhere sells it because of that front page that you mentioned Nish. Flags at Anfield every single week, which would pay tribute to Hillsborough victims and their families. And as you say, really important to say across the board, it’s called the Hillsborough law, but it is affecting so many people. There’s a massive group, a massive campaign group from the nuclear test veterans to Windrush to Grenfell to, as we’ve mentioned before, the post office and the infected blood. So many different groups. And unfortunately, that is a damning indictment of this country and how it treats people. So this can be the ultimate change to that, but it has to be right. And I just really, really hope that the government listens and comes back with a proper amendment that the families can support.
Nish Kumar You’re an experienced journalist. You’ve written about a huge number of stories over the years. And, you know, especially on the political side of things, there’s so much weekly churn. But with this, you’ve been talking directly to families affected by tragedy. Families who, like you say, members of whose families went to a football match and never came home. What is it like to follow a story like this so intimately for so many years and be hearing directly from the people most affected by it?
Liam Thorp Yeah, it’s really emotional to be honest. There’s a thing with journalism where you have to kind of create a bit of an epistemic distance sometimes between you and what you write about because if we got upset about everything we write about, we wouldn’t be able to do it. You have to develop quite a thick skin. But on Hillsborough, it is right up there with the most important things that I have ever covered. Hillsborough has such an important part in this city’s makeup and its fabric. We’ve been covering Hillsborough since 1989. We had reporters there and the Echo has always, always championed the side of the families and always will do. So whatever happens, we’ll be on their side. 1989, it’s such a long time ago and they are still today having their lives completely dominated by this. They are drained, they are emotional, they’re up and down, of course you would be. Every time that this comes back into the news, it reminds them of the trauma that they’ve been through. But ultimately, I’m just staggered by their bravery and their strength to keep going, you know, so many years later, to keep taking the fight to the heart of government. These are ordinary Scousers, just ordinary people, mainly working class people, whose family went to, as we say, went to a football match and didn’t come home. They never asked to be brought into the situation. They never ask to have to sort of come together with all these people that they don’t know and be sort of bounded for life. Because they just all were unfortunate enough to be put in such a tragic situation. So for them to just keep going, well, the least we can do is keep backing them and yeah, it’s a privilege to do that.
Coco Khan Liam, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK. After the break, Trump’s putting together a gruesome board of, inverted commas, peace for Gaza, with not one Palestinian involved. We speak to Palestinian comedian Alaa Shehada.
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Coco Khan This week, the US president has announced his so-called Board of Peace, which is set to run Gaza. As we record this, I understand that Politico are reporting that Netanyahu has agreed to be on this board, so it’s sounding a bit more like a board of occupation. Membership nonetheless does not come cheap. He’s asked countries to cough up a whopping one billion for a permanent spot.
Nish Kumar There’s not a single seat reserved for a Palestinian, and the Charter does not mention Gaza, sparking speculation that this is an attempt to build an alternative to the UN. Tess Ingram has just returned from four months’ deployment in Gaza, she’s from UNICEF, and here’s what she had to say about the current conditions inside the occupied territory.
Clip I want you to imagine for a second that you’re Nessreen, a mother I met just a few weeks ago in the Gaza Strip. Your five children are with you, crying, wet, their feet are caked in mud, they have no shoes. Your husband was killed a few months ago in a strike and you’re seven months pregnant alone, trying to figure out what to do that evening, where you will safely sleep as a family. And this is an impossible choice that so many parents are facing. In Gaza at the moment because despite the scaled up humanitarian response it is just not enough. It’s imperative that the ceasefire is upheld, that children, all civilians are protected and that the aid necessary to pull families like Nasserine from this misery comes into the Gaza Strip at the it’s go.
Nish Kumar UNICEF say that more than two million Palestinians face the same challenges as Nesrim and her family.
Coco Khan It’s a massive story, but frankly, we don’t hear enough from any Palestinians themselves. Well, someone who is challenging this is our guest today. So, Alaa Shehada is an actor and comedian. He’s also the co-founder of the Palestinian Comedy Collective. A new documentary shows them crossing checkpoints and borders to perform in theaters across the region before the genocide began.
Clip Building anything sustainable in Palestine is really hard. I wanted to take on that challenge, to make a stand-up comedy scene in Palestine. Come here, come here. One last hug. You do your trousers up as well. I love you. You’re amazing. You are very, very, very funny.
Coco Khan They also started to get more notice internationally and came to London for a series of gigs, starting on the 7th of October 2023. As the conflict escalated back home, the group found themselves stranded. Hello and welcome to Pod Save the UK.
Alaa Shehada Thank you, thank you for having me.
Nish Kumar What’s your sort of initial reaction to hearing about this board of peace that’s being set up by Trump?
Alaa Shehada It’s a realization of our position as Palestinians and this position is really clear now outside of the world. At the end of the day, you have no control over your future. You have no controls over your children’s dreams and futures. Unfortunately, I’m lucky Palestinian who is here in the UK who can perform and go all over the world, like millions of Palestinian guys who are dreaming, who are creative and smart people. Who cannot leave the homeland because of the situation. It’s painful for me here, it’s painful from my people back home. Everyone isn’t there in an open air prison. And the only thing that we can do is support and for myself is to tell the story, tell the stories of my people. I got the privilege to be a performer on a stage and I’m trying to use this as much as I can to tell my story and the story of my people back at home.
Coco Khan Some listeners might be hearing you speak, hearing Tess Ingram speak and think, but why comedy? There’s so much tragedy and hardship. Why do you use comedy in the way that you’re using it? Why did you set it up, this Palestine Comedy Club?
Alaa Shehada Why comedy? It’s the most question.
Nish Kumar My parents always ask me every time I go home. Why comedy?
Alaa Shehada Why comedy. Why comedy! Imagine, why don’t we flip it upside down and say, why tragedy? Why tragedy, why tears and why sad stories? Comedy opened the doors for us to say and tell and share stories that we cannot share in any other form of arts. It’s a relatable language. It’s an international relatable language for every human being all over the world. And telling the people about who we are as engineers, doctors, children, lovers, teachers. So it’s a way to connect with the people. And the main big reason, because comedy is a big part of our culture. And that’s what is not here. Comedy is like when I call my mom, like last night the army was in my town, and she’s laughing, you know what I mean? Like she’s making fun of my father and my other brother. So I grew up with comedy and any of the conversation in Palestine, if you go to a supermarket, it ends with a joke. It ends with, with, with, with a laughter. It ends with a smile. Uh, even it’s a hard, tough situation. And I find it myself is something really interesting because I feel it naturally is a way of surviving.
Nish Kumar Documentary is amazing and I will also say one of my immediate take homes from the documentary was you have inherited your sense of humor from your mother directly your mother is a real star of the movie she is and you guys have got the same exact same like mischief in your eyes because there’s a talking head where you two are sat together and whatever that same like impulse to fuck around is. You don’t realize that there’s a genetic component until you see it right in front of you, right? It’s not it’s amazing
Alaa Shehada It’s my mother because she cannot tell the story normally. She got by nature the sit-up of what we learned. A sitting up the joke, a bunch line, a story, a building. She got it by her nature and I’m looking at her while she’s telling a story to my family or to the neighbors. Shit, this is a master class. You know what I mean? Like, wow. And I try to take notes like, mom, please tell that story like in my shows. How can I see your way? I’m like…
Nish Kumar The thing that is so amazing about it, because it gives you an insight into the day-to-day life of being a Palestinian, which I obviously have no way of relating to. However, I have done comedy tours before. I travel around and, you know, I don’t think about the way that I have to move around, but obviously for you guys to do a comedy tour, you’re navigating travel restrictions and checkpoints. And there’s a great, we’ve actually got a clip from the documentary just to look at how you got around some of those challenges.
Clip Just waiting. I think And when I saw them… With just silly eyes. You don’t have to laugh, even in this situation. Go get them!
Nish Kumar The first minute we got on the bus just said the phrase, shit on them. It’s quite a tense scene where, you know, they’re trying to see, you know, what’s going to happen. You guys are at a checkpoint and then this, you know, bag of goofballs appears and what you’ve all wearing bucket hats.
Coco Khan To international land with a bucket hat.
Nish Kumar Buy, those fucking hats
Alaa Shehada Let me explain you that, because on the chick point, these hats are for the workers who work inside. So they buy them to protect them from the sun. We looked at them and it’s like, they’re not just for this construction work. They can be cool.
Coco Khan They can be!
Alaa Shehada Can we have five, please?
Coco Khan Ha ha!
Alaa Shehada Because we needed to look, we’re not from the West Bank, from Jenin. So that’s why I wanted to wear shorts and sunglasses as a tourist coming to Haifa or going to Jerusalem.
Coco Khan So your new show, The Horse of Janina is a look really at your upbringing. What’s it like performing that, that so close personal show to UK audiences?
Nish Kumar It’s an incredible show. I saw it in Edinburgh last year. It’s so funny. And just as a show, it has so many different types of comedy. It’s very verbal, but then it points this kind of physical and clowning elements to it. And it’s, yeah, it’s a really extraordinary bit of work. Like it’s really, it is very special.
Alaa Shehada It is special also for me on a personal level because mainly I’m telling my personal story since being a child, including seeing the statue of a horse that was built in Jenin in 2003. And 20 years later, two years ago, the army with the D9 bulldozer, they ripped out the horse from the roundabout. It’s a very hard image to see as someone who’s been living in Jenine and seeing that horse every day and meeting everyone. Under that horse, because it’s not just a statue of a horse, because the statue itself was built from the demolished, destroyed houses, ambulances and cars, and it became a meeting point to everyone in Jenin. And the moment that they talk it, it was surprising and shocking and painful to everyone at the same time. Like why a statue for a horse? Like, why do you take it? Even though it was not smashed, it was ripped out of the roundabout. Well, that’s why I- in the show, what happened to the horse? Will it be in a part of a prisoner’s exchange in the future? Like, have they asked about the stories, the secrets that happened under that horse? What I personally did there. Yeah, we’ll go to see. So it has a big, sensitive memory, not just for me, for every Palestinian in Jenin. And performing it here in the UK, with these responses that I have every night, it just feels amazing and great that the story is there. I can see it in people’s hearts and chests and imaginations. It allows them to see new stories about Palestinians. And I’m happy about the success of this show. And at the same time… The reality hits where the situation on the ground that not just the horse, 25,000 people from Jenin camp are not living in the camp anymore and most of their houses are destroyed and living outside of the city in a very bad situation. But at the same time, that’s what I can do as a theater maker, as an artist, is to tell the story of… My story and the story of my people, you know, have a conversation from a human to a human without any kind of judging you or having an image about what a Palestinian should look like and act like. Because sometimes people come and they’re confused. Like, is it okay to laugh? You know what I mean? Because they have one image about the Palestinians Oh, you know what I mean? And someone is coming to bullshit being open and vulnerable about everything. That’s kind of something unexpected from the audiences and that’s what I’m trying to do.
Nish Kumar You’re away from home at the moment, you were away from home when the latest phase of this conflict happened, which must be, I can’t imagine how difficult that is. What gives you hope at the moment in these kind of dark times?
Alaa Shehada Well, first and main thing, I cannot give up. I need to keep moving. That is the main thing in my head, in my heart. I try to ignore everything around and just keep moving because I’m aware at least this keeps me alive. At least this gives me creative. At least, this keeps my and my people seen. At least. This is a type of therapy for me. Sounded easily to say that. But it’s not, as I told you. You go back home and then you look at these news and you call your family and your friends and you hear them, you hear the stories, you their voice. It’s painful, it’s painful. My friends all are very creative and great people and smart and they can do a lot in their lives and their futures and their dreams and why? Why literally simply cannot do that? We’re here, you have all possibilities. To go and develop yourself, your career, your future, your dream, whatever you want to do, you have the chance, the space to decide and do it. Where back home, my people, my friends, smart, talented people, are under the control. They cannot decide about their careers, they cannot decide about their hobbies, their love, their… Their creations, their minds, their hopes, their dreams. They cannot decide about that. And that’s what do we mean about the freedom. Like that’s why we all the time say we need to end this occupation.
Coco Khan Especially when you know that so much of the Palestinian population are kids, young, it’s a very young population and just that, you know, the picture you portrayed there of just, you cannot reach your potential, your card is marked, your choices are limited. I can’t imagine doing a show about it is easy.
Nish Kumar The show is extraordinary. I believe it’s running for one more night at the Bush, but I think it’s sold out. But if it does come back, I would really, really urge people to see it. But the documentary is also extraordinary, and it’s on limited release in independent cinemas across the UK from the 27th of February with the support of the BFI. We will provide links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Alaa Shehada Oh, thank you guys. Thank you for hosting me.
Coco Khan So Nish, I cannot let us leave without having a chat about the biggest political story of the week. It’s the Beckham family feud. So Brooklyn Beckham has claimed that his mum Victoria Beckham, aka Posh Spice, upstaged his wife at their wedding and get this, she refused to help displace dogs affected by the LA wildfires. How will she ever Come back from this.
Nish Kumar Well, we also did not help the dogs in LA, so we’re as bad. Listen, it’s very sad for every family. It’s very weird that like a family’s business is like all across the internet. Everything about it is deeply strange.
Coco Khan And with the news being what it is, do you not believe that this is the entertainment we all really need? The distraction we need? They’re doing a national service, international service. If you’re watching Brooklyn Beckham, I hate to break it to you, you are in a big South Asian family. Essentially is what’s happened to you. If you were in LA, reach out to Kumail Nanjani. He can help you. Just letting you. I just think he needs help. I’m just standing here.
Nish Kumar I am fascinated to know what help you think Kumail is going to be able to provide Brooklyn Beckham.
Coco Khan The mother-in-law that wants to make it all about her.
Nish Kumar Oh, it’s… Listen, it is South Asian as fuck. Yeah, come on.
Coco Khan Call me Brooklyn. I can help you. That’s it. Thank you for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save UK on Instagram, TikTok X and Blue Sky.
Nish Kumar Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.
Coco Khan Thanks to lead producer, May Robson and digital producer, Jacob Liebenberg.
Nish Kumar At The Music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.
Coco Khan Our engineer is Jeet Vasani and our social media producer is Leonore Schick.
Nish Kumar The executive producers are Kate Fitzsimons and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz.
Coco Khan And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.
