In This Episode
Schools eerily quiet about election results, Bernice King 2017 election advice resurfaces, an ode to Ella Jenkins legacy in children’s music and Malcolm Peacock artistic practice pushes the mold.
News
Schools Are Eerily Quiet About the Election Results, Educators Say
Ella Jenkins, Chicago’s first lady of children’s music, dies at 100
Malcolm Peacock Asks, “When Is the Last Time You Trusted Yourself?” | Studio Museum in Harlem
Bernice King: Post-Election Advice
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. On this episode it’s me, Myles, De’Ara, and Don talking about the news with regard to race, justice, and equity that you might have missed, and we offer one of our latest reflections on what happened with the election. Do not forget to follow us at @PodSavethePeople on Instagram.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Okay, everybody, and we are back for another episode of Pod Save the People. It seems like we’ve had a week or so to process the uh wildness around us and we are still processing and we’re coming back to give you more news. I’m DeRay @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram.
De’Ara Balenger: And I’m De’Ara Balenger. You can find me on Instagram at @dearabalenger.
Don Calloway: Don Calloway on Instagram at @DCalloway.
DeRay Mckesson: Let’s start with some light uh light conversation is that Beyonce is performing at the halftime Christmas show of the NFL. Did you all see that? Myles, I know you saw it. De’Ara?
De’Ara Balenger: I saw it on I saw it on Miss Tina’s page because Miss Tina keeps us informed. So I did I actually did.
Myles E. Johnson: What’s going on?
De’Ara Balenger: I did see that.
Don Calloway: New week. Millions of people to educate. We got a [?] to educate this morning. And this [indistinct]–
DeRay Mckesson: I know, it’s the only positive thing I could think of was.
Don Calloway: You’ve changed DeRay. [indistinct]
DeRay Mckesson: [?] .
De’Ara Balenger: And I. I went to um I was privileged to go to a talk in New Orleans at Xavier University with Ta-Nehisi and Joy Reid. And actually, the first question Joy threw to Ta-Nehisi was, you know, it I forget exact, it was something around Beyoncé, but then Ta-Nehisi actually was like it was like, ha ha ha, let’s actually talk about the election. But he was like, actually he was like, I wish we would stop using these institutions as ways to measure sort of our contributions and our value as Black folks.
Myles E. Johnson: Welcome to Yale, cause’ she got the Yale chorus.
De’Ara Balenger: I think it just was also like the Grammys and the music, the Country Music Awards. He was just on some like who why do we care about those things? But it just it was it was a it was an interesting place to to start this talk [laugh]. Um. But. Yeah, just that was that was sort of his perspective of among many other things. But it was incredible. So if you all happen to be able to see him on the road. I was happy to see him in the South because most things I want to do in the South these days.
Myles E. Johnson: I am very excited to see Beyonce. I feel like I need this. I’m not going to lie to you. I’m not really filled with excitement, but I haven’t really got like I haven’t uh got hit by like the Christmas moment either. Like, you know, that that Christmas feeling and I’m a Christmas person. So like, a lot of things have not been hitting yet, but I’m very excited to see because I know when she hits the stage, I will be totally um mesmerized by her. Um. You know?
De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. Is it like a halftime show performance? Is that what it is?
DeRay Mckesson: It is a–
De’Ara Balenger: It’s like a football.
Don Calloway: Yeah. Yeah so.
DeRay Mckesson: You say it’s like a football. I love it. Yes.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s football. Something, right?
Don Calloway: So, yeah, historically, over the last, gosh, at least 20 Christmases. The NBA kind of owns that family moment at Christmas Day, right? During dinner.
De’Ara Balenger: Mmm.
Don Calloway: It’s NBA games from you know noon to to to midnight. And I had really come to love that. And last year, you saw the NFL incur on that territory for the first time. And if you think about it, toward the second half of the season, the NFL is Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. So they really have quietly dominated and slipped into being an ever present thing. And the Christmas take over is very much a part of that. And look, Beyonce is as big as the Super Bowl wherever she shows up. So this for them to put on a Christmas Day production that probably rivals or even surpasses the Super Bowl is a massive, massive cultural flag in the ground.
DeRay Mckesson: The other cultural moment that happened this week was Mike Tyson and Jake Paul, which is about the intersection of race and culture. Myles, I know you had some thoughts and I have not asked you about them because I was interested to ask you on the pod.
Myles E. Johnson: It was what did you watch it? Did y’all watch?
DeRay Mckesson: No.
Myles E. Johnson: Like actually watch it?
DeRay Mckesson: I couldn’t stomach it.
De’Ara Balenger: I did I did watch it.
DeRay Mckesson: Did you watch it?
Myles E. Johnson: You got to.
De’Ara Balenger: I watched it because it was it was post the Ta-Nehisi um talk and we were at our favorite–
DeRay Mckesson: Okay.
De’Ara Balenger: –hotel, Peter and Paul, and we were having drinks, and like put it on an iPhone.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah I–
De’Ara Balenger: It wasn’t much of a fight, to be honest.
Myles E. Johnson: At all. At all.
Don Calloway: It was not. It was not.
Myles E. Johnson: At all. Um. I’m always like, really so what was interesting about that fight, because we obviously just had an election. It felt but I’m very sensitive. So I was like it felt racist. [banter] [laugh] And I couldn’t and I. But I was like, I can’t really you can’t just say something feels racist that was white supremacist. But I really sat with it and once I really sat with Jake Paul and the imagery, like there’s even like these this really I think sometimes because the imagery is absurdist, we don’t necessarily bring the proper analysis to it or maybe even more thoughtful analysis to it. But there’s actually like these absurdist images of Jake Paul practicing to fight Mike Tyson by boxing a big black dildo. Um. And also one of the things that Jake Paul says once he wins is America is back. So there’s this idea that, oh this white young person is fighting the most vicious Black man with the biggest dick, with the with the most bloody blows, and he’s able to win them. So it’s really that symbolic white supremacist um power of victory that was there. It’s something to be shared on these incel Reddit forms, something to be shared between these kind of fascist, far right Trump YouTubers. It’s just more fodder for that scene. And I think sometimes because some of us are so unplugged from that scene, we don’t always know that we’re being used for that scene. Like, for instance, um my dear Rosie Perez was commentating and I’m like, if we only read a few more feminist theory books, we might be looking at this moment a tad more critically. Um. Yeah. So those are those are, those are my thoughts about the fight. But uh I’m glad that I’m glad that Mike Tyson feels good about it.
Don Calloway: Yeah it, the whole thing felt very gross to me. And I’m a big boxing guy. And as a Negro of a certain age, Mike Gerard Tyson from Brownsville, Brooklyn is one of our true heroes in the world. Rape conviction notwithstanding, uh you know, and that is a wild set of circumstances around that, that as an older person, it makes you begin to balance your thoughts between believe all women and, you know, this extraordinarily dangerous muck he was in as a very young man. But we love Mike Tyson. And it felt very gross. Uh. It felt just it was it felt unsportsmanlike. And if you’re into boxing, then sportsmanship and the queen, the marquess berry, marquess decide rules are very much, you know, top of mind. It just didn’t feel good. And I think sibling Myles, you did a wonderful job of explaining to us who are somewhat conscious of critical race theory and, you know, just advanced thought on these matters. That was a very good elucidation of why it felt gross. You know, uh and I did very much hear Jake Paul say at the end, it feels like America is back. And it was basically MAGA without a MAGA hat or saying Trump. But it just the whole thing felt really gross. But then again, the whole thing is was microcosmic of kind of who we’ve become in America. For the right price I guess everything’s okay, right? Everything goes for the right price.
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
Don Calloway: I’m just glad Mike didn’t get hurt. Um. And I thought that was very much a possibility. But Jake Paul still hasn’t fought a real fighter in my book as a boxing man.
DeRay Mckesson: I was surprised to see Jake Paul box the black dildo. Like it was such a clear, like sexual racist, it like it wasn’t you didn’t have to, like, think deep about it. I was like, oh this is a thing. This is and to do it publicly, like, it wasn’t like somebody leaked the video that was actually what. And I’ll talk about this in my news. But that’s actually what surprised me is how how much the Incel crowd has just normalized what would have simply been unacceptable before um is shocking to me.
De’Ara Balenger: I guess I also think about this in a very elementary way. Mike Tyson, what is left of him, this man who gets enjoyment from spending time with pigeons. Just just let him alone. At this point, I don’t want to like I don’t want to go back down memory road. He like, yes, Don to your point around the convict, like he, hero maybe in some respects. In terms of like how this young man grew up, but like the level of trauma that he has suffered through and has then then inflicted on others, it’s sort of like let him alone in that pigeon coop and let’s be let’s be done with it. I just feel like I guess it’s also just coming off of this campaign and really trying to identify, like, our Black heroes, like. I just want us to spend time and investment on those that actually can help to take our community some places. And I mean everybody. I mean everybody from Sexyy Red to Hakeem Jeffries. Like how–
Myles E. Johnson: Sexyy Red gets so many–
De’Ara Balenger: How can we like how but I just want to take everybody that we can actually do something with and let’s put our arms around them and figure out how we can move our people forward. I guess like going back into the cultural sort of zeitgeisty black hat and pulling out Mike Tyson.
Myles E. Johnson: Well he’s–
De’Ara Balenger: I mean.
Myles E. Johnson: What what made–
De’Ara Balenger: I just don’t want it.
Myles E. Johnson: –me feel better.
De’Ara Balenger: I don’t want it. I don’t care how much. I don’t care what the price is. I just don’t. I don’t want it.
Myles E. Johnson: I, what made me feel better Auntie De’Ara is this is before, like in the middle of it. I, I think sometimes we have a tendency or I will speak for myself. I have the tendency to Cicely Tyson wash a lot of Black people because they reached over the age of 50. And when I really thought about Mike Tyson I say he bit off a nigga’s ear.
De’Ara Balenger: Ear! [laugh]
Myles E. Johnson: Excuse me, I’m sorry. I was like, he was on he was talking about with um Robin Givens, talking smack with Barbara. Like he has had some of the most absurdist moments in mainstream. So if you really dig in the like, great treasure trove of Black cultural moments and what is appropriate for the absurdity of 2024 in like this like new second wave of Trump era, he is our Negro. Like like he is the moment he he matched it, he matches it. This is what I think sometimes when we get over 50, we over here be like, well didn’t he walk with King?
De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. He was alright.
Myles E. Johnson: And wasn’t he talking to Malcolm and wasn’t he friends with Mohammed Ali? It’s like, no, that wasn’t him. He was he was a mess. [laughing]
De’Ara Balenger: Y’all I was, when I was in my very young, fine days in my 20s, I was approached by–
Myles E. Johnson: Still in.
De’Ara Balenger: –Mike Tyson. And when I tell you it was the most terrifying thing of my life to be honest.
Myles E. Johnson: I thought you were gonna say that’s how come I’m a lesbian now. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: Oh my God Myles. Lord Jesus.
Myles E. Johnson: [laughing] I thought you were gonna say that.
De’Ara Balenger: Might have something to do with it. Might have something to do with it. Okay.
DeRay Mckesson: Might, might I add something here? Y’all are wow.
Don Calloway: Look.
DeRay Mckesson: So I’ll segue that into my news, my news is about um how teachers have been dealing with the election and actually shout out to one of our listeners Shakeese, who actually sent me this because I hadn’t seen it and he was like, I listen to the pod. What do you think about this news? I’m like, I’m gonna put this up. So generally it’s about very different than the last time Trump won that there’s sort of a chilling effect that’s been happening in classrooms. That teachers have not know how to talk about it or feel like they can’t talk about Trump’s win. Principals, school leaders also feel like they can’t talk about Trump’s win. It’s interesting to see also the way the numbers have shaken out. Remember that, you know, at the on Election Day, it was like Trump wins in a landslide. Da da da. As the night as all the rest of the ballots keep getting it looks like Trump is actually winning less than 50% of the vote and is only a percentage point above Kamala. So I just put that in perspective because even in this article, um it talks about like like [?]’s decisive win. And da da da. And you would think that he won 80% of the vote if you are reading this article in EdWeek which I do like EdWeek and I’m like, ooh this is interesting. So what the only sort of data point from this that I thought was fascinating was that EdWeek’s research center from September 28th to October 8th did a nationally representative survey of educators, and 39% of educators said they will vote for Trump. 11% said that they were going to vote for a third party candidate and 50% said they were going to vote for Kamala Harris. I’m not going to lie. I saw those numbers and I was frankly surprised that the Trump number was so high. Not because I’m foolish about, you know, the way people have supported his facism and stuff, but with educators you know, he has literally said he’s going to abolish the department of education. And for people who work in schools, it’s like, you know, especially if you work in a low income school, they are all supplemented by federal dollars, special education, supplemented by federal dollars, school lunch supplemented by federal dollars. There are very few school systems across the country that could get through a year or a set of months without federal money. It just like they don’t have the money to do it. And I was actually pretty shocked by that. I also it’s interesting to think about and I don’t know if you saw well Oklahoma, right. The superintendent of schools is very young and has never really done anything in schools, but he’s mandating that Bibles are in every classroom. And, you know, I’m bringing it here because I was actually really troubled by the silencing effect this is having on classrooms. And what does it mean? And I think this is a broader conversation about Trump when people are literally just afraid to talk about it because of the repercussions from Trump and the community of people that he’s in power. So you think about Columbus. I don’t know if you saw Columbus with the Nazis marching in Columbus over the weekend, You know, city council president, young Black, gay guy, the mayor is progressive and they’re releasing statements being like, these are not our values. And those KKK guys are masked up and walking down the street with flags. And the chilling effect that that has in communities is something I think we had all thought about. Actually just had not thought about um until this article like what it’s doing to classrooms. And after this, I’m gonna call my sister, who is a principal in an elementary school. But I think about the last election, if you all remember, I remember young people being nervous that their friends were getting deported because the deportation language was just so much of Trump’s rhetoric the first time. So I brought it here because I’m I’m interested in what you have to say about the chilling effect. And I was frankly surprised to think or to see this data that said that over 30% of teachers, 39% of educators were going to vote for Trump. So I’ll stop there. But fascinated by this, nervous by it. It’s something that I think we need to continue to monitor.
Don Calloway: Well, from a from a purely political perspective, I think it’s very important to remember that since we have only been free 60 years, give or take, um our politics is dramatically behind, i.e. we continue to be we are typically concerned to the extent that African-Americans are politically active or marginalized groups are politically active. We tend to be concerned with the horse race politics of who is running, who is our candidate, and which candidate do we like. These people are deeply ingrained in the infrastructure of democracy such that they have been influencing politically school boards for 50 years now, uh while others have put millions and hundreds of millions into uh jiggering courts in the way that they have, or voter suppression in the way they have. School boards have been an organized part of the white supremacist agenda for at least 50 years now. Mama Bears. Moms for Liberty. I remember being a young state legislator 15 years ago and getting consistently lobbied and propaganda pieces from these extraordinarily conservative white moms, and they can say a whole lot of crazy because they have the most nonthreatening face behind it. These small, bookish, demure, cutesy white women who are effectively saying these are the ones saying, we don’t want your son to come here and go home a girl. Right. I mean, the wildest stuff. But that has been organized, supported and funded. Those those advocacy efforts have been funded for at least 50 years. While we remain excited about candidates. Right. And so I think that the actual political organization around some of these things is a lot of what you’re seeing when you see educators doing that, because you have to remember that educator’s jobs are often pursuant to the whims of these school boards, particularly in these smaller counties and communities in flyover states. And they are, frankly, as politically teachers are, as politically influential as is every other section of the American electorate. But that that white supremacist, heteronormative, sexist attitude has been ingrained politically by organization and school boards for at least 50 years. And by the way, that’s before I was born.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s interesting DeRay, because I feel like even the demographics around teachers like what who what is the racial demographic of those teachers that were first of all, were being surveyed because one, we know that we need more Black teachers, right. Particularly more Black men teachers. Um. So that’s something that’s floating around in my head. And then the other thing is sort of so um, you know, some of the text messages floating around in. It’s Pao’s family. Any mind it’s Pao’s family. And Pao’s family was you know, well, we’re really concerned now about um about undocumented people being being deported. But it was like but some of y’all voted for Trump. But yes, we’re concerned that, you know, but it’s only supposed to be criminals, dangerous criminals that are deported. Not like our nannies. Our housekeepers our, you know, all the other people that are being hired to do [?] or or so many things. So I think it’s an I think it’s just an interesting sort of construct, cause I think I think the immigration thing, we actually didn’t give it sort of enough space because I think what’s also happening in schools is, is this issue right? And I think I think it’s coming up for educators. I think it’s coming up for students. I think the students, obviously, their parents are they have all of these sort of values and um sort of conversation coming that happening at home. They bring it to school. And so I think a lot of sort of the Trumpiness in schools um is sort of symptomatic of that. But I think it will be interesting to see because I think it also was announced that Trump is going to use like the military to help with these mass deportations. Like, how were these folks that were like, I’m an immigrant but not that kind of immigrant, how is that going to play out now when this when this shit gets really real and when it does start to impact students? Because it’s going to be the parents of students and maybe some students themselves. I think it’s going to be a really. Interesting and frightening sort of landscape when all of this stuff gets going. And I think the question for me both as a Black person and, you know, Black and Mexican, but also just like a human being is, is is really conditioning myself to not um actually to not have conditions on how I want to be helpful or supportive. Because I think right now, like I’m mad still because I’m like, what? And now, now y’all are second guessing what you did. But I can’t sort of continue to have that mentality when shit hits the fan because I just have it has to be like sort of a human reaction first as opposed to this conditioned reaction.
DeRay Mckesson: And De’Ara, just to I know Myles and Don are going to go, just as a point of uminformation on what you just said. Two things I was talking to somebody about the deportation thing is interesting because people are like, it’ll be illegal. And I’m like, you won’t be able to sue Trump from Mexico or Cuba or, you know, they they have floated the idea that they’re going to put all the deported people in Rwanda. It won’t matter. By the time they have flown you to Rwanda, the legal process will not matter. You will be far away from a court or a filing it’s going to be a wrap. And the second thing that is scary, you know, there are 19,000 police departments in the United States. The Federal Government controls less than 100, but what the federal government does have is border patrol. And most people don’t know that the law allows for border patrol to patrol 100 miles around the American border. Two out of three people that live in this country live 100 miles within 100 miles of the American border. If he mobilized Border Patrol to go into neighborhoods, it would be unprecedented, but not illegal. It the law allows for it. We only see it at the Mexican border is the sort of where people think about it. But New York. Maine. The Midwest. You know, a hundred miles is a lot of space. If you just take the American border and go in, that is most of the United States in terms of where people live.
Don Calloway: My Lord. Going back to Saint Louis, where I’m safe. [laughter].
DeRay Mckesson: Goodness.
De’Ara Balenger: I think the other–
Myles E. Johnson: Um.
De’Ara Balenger: –piece of this is that we don’t talk about and this is sort of a like takes us somewhere else. But just because I’ve spent time in Arizona and in places like Tucson where like the other thing we don’t talk about the border is how Indigenous people actually go back and forth across the border and actually like their their way of life, but also like their livelihood it literally is about and culturally, it’s tracking back and forth, back and forth. But what happens is with these with this border crisis or whatever you want to call what’s about to happen. When a border closes, they don’t tell you. They don’t send you an email being like the border is closed today. Like you get there with all of your things to sell on the other side and it’s just closed. You get there with all of your sort of, you know, if it’s a ceremony that’s happening or a funeral or whatever it is, you get there and it’s closed. So it’s also just like our sort of sort of like the the American understanding and psyche around our borders. Like our borders are like people aren’t, DeRay to your point. People are living there. These are places where people live and have lived for thousands of years.
Myles E. Johnson: Just listening to this um or excuse me reading this article made me think about uh just the radical potential of public schools. And of schools in general and made me think about. So for a lot of people, I would assume 2000 was like a really big year. But I would like you know argue to say probably for like people who are millennials, like my age, that was a really big year because that was the year between um Bush and Al Gore. And then the following year was 9/11. And the reason why I bring both of those instances up is because those are both huge moments where there’s a third moment because when they changed the Confederate flag to the new Georgia flag, that was a huge thing. And then the the hanging Chad and I remember people uh, teachers arguing with each other like in front of us. Or you could tell I’m like, okay, the lunch ladies a little pissed off at each other right now. I remember that happening. And I also remember some students being a little bit activated, not knowing what they were being activated by, but just saying some things where I’m like, that’s not how my mom would talk about Bush. But you seem like to think that he’s Santa, and that’s not how my mom reported it. And then, of course, 9/11, we all know uh uh what happened there. I bring all those situations up is because I experienced those things all in school. And I think the potential of school did not receive that. But I think the potential of school is really helping children process what the world is around them in a responsible, intellectual way. So when something this big happens in the world, school to me is a good, safe haven to be able to process things and process things with people who are not like you, who do not agree, but you but if there is something powerful that I think that can happen is if somebody is conservative and somebody is a liberal or if a kid is scared and another kid is not, there is an empathy that is created that may actually uh enlighten somebody. You know, you might come from a Trump family and and you love Trump and you love Hulk Hogan and and it’s all good. And we just love our John Deere, but we’re not racist. And that’s and that’s all great. But then when you really have a conversation and you see your classmate cry and you see them being impacted, that is both intellectually and emotionally changing. So not being able to speak about those things is really sad to me because I think public schools are one of the few places or excuse me, schools in general. I’m sorry, but schools in general are some of the few places where that that can happen now, now that everything is so class stratified and we order our laundry and our food and nobody talks to each other and please wear a mask.
De’Ara Balenger: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: So I’m like, where are people talking and engaging and specifically children? And this is the place and and and they’re too scared to really have the conversation that can really change their lives, in my opinion.
De’Ara Balenger: Well, my best friend. Who lives in Kendall, which is South Miami. A day before the election in her daughter’s fourth grade class, they had a mock election where it was Donald Trump against Kamala Harris. Now my niece is in, it’s a predominantly Latino school, primarily Cuban. So those are the politics. She is she’s Black and Salvadorian, and she was one of, I think, a handful of kids if that that voted for Kamala Harris. So it ended up being a very scary day at school for her. And I think. I think, Myles, to your point, I think it’s the conversations should be happening in classrooms, but they’re not happening in an empathetic sort of let’s learn more about each other kind of way. And it also spills over into like her Girl Scout troop like her, her like social things as a kid are now completely sort of informed and impacted by the politics of the Latino community in South Florida.
DeRay Mckesson: To both of your points that I think is so fascinating and De’Ara, I didn’t even think about the social, the clubs, the sports, all the stuff that kids have to go to that that this comes up is that this to me feels rooted in what has happened where we are now negotiating what’s true or not. And in classrooms, we actually just should not be doing that. So you know I don’t know if you saw the editor of the Scientific American just had to resign because she called Trump voters bigoted and da da da, something like that. So she resigns and you’re like, I think about my time in the classroom, it’s like bigotry actually has a definition. Bigotry is not a it’s not like a made up word it is a it is a word with a definition that is a prejudice against groups of people. That is what it is. So the question becomes, can you can you name examples where Donald Trump said things that are bigoted, like that is what we that is what students should be trained to do. And, you know, we can debate about it and da da da. But the quite the idea that a teacher says, hey, was this bigotry or not? And they get fired is is nuts. The fact that the editor of a major publication like she knows what the word bigotry means. If somebody had to challenge her and say, give me five examples, she would have them. But again, you know, mind you, they’re saying, Haitian people are eating cats and dogs and were and it is normal. But you are using a word that actually has a definition that is true and has meaning. And that’s where I get worried about [?] I’m actually interested in, as a parent of two kids who are in middle school right? Are they, are they both in middle school?
Don Calloway: Uh. 10th and seventh.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh! Middle and high.
Don Calloway: Yeah and yeah middle and high. And they are very much both in the big nice white suburban, but kind of racially mixed they’re in the big amalgamated, like white public school. Right. This is this is the one, right, that if you if you got to go to public school, this is the fever dream, if you will. Right. Of where you’re trying to be. Um. So, yes, you want my parental perspective. What is the question? How do I feel about schools? Um.
DeRay Mckesson: What was it like for them? What was the election like for them as as they–
Don Calloway: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: –processed it or their peers or their teacher?
Don Calloway: That’s a very good question, and I think that um from what I’ve gathered from them. Their friends, even their white ones, uh either voted for Kamala or they know not to go there saying they voted for Trump. I noticed about like we moved into this district almost four years ago, and so that made me with a third grader and a sixth grader at the time. And they were very interested in this notion that you could be, their words, not mine. You could be canceled for misgendering their classmates. And so they were giving me all the pronouns. And this is very, very early in their tenure in this suburban Maryland school district. And so I think that this district has this ethos uh where kids very much know what is socially acceptable and is not, and Trumpism is not socially acceptable. So to the extent that they think that hey none of these white folks voted for Trump and has kind of an innocent, you know, cute thing that they think that. It’s kind of curious that the kids have not expressed that their parents voted for Trump or some of them proudly express that their parents voted for Kamala. But by the numbers, right. In a multiracial school district in suburban Maryland, um some of y’all voted for Trump and some of y’all know not to say it. And I think that is kind of the the the very um nonscientific data that I’ve gotten from not only living in the neighborhood, but having my kids return. But it’s just that that thing and the reality of that is it’s like a faux safety. So my kids go there from day one, four years ago and they know not to misgender anybody. But still, a whole lot of y’all voted and they know not to say they voted for Trump, but a whole lot of y’all did. So it’s this topical, very surface level safety that doesn’t represent real safety for any of our kids, particularly those from marginalized communities or Black communities, queer communities, etc.. And so you wonder, even in this progressive blue state. Is being around this level of upper middle class whiteness ever a true safe space? Or have they mastered the totems of safety?
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Don Calloway: So my news is not really news, but it’s more of a survival guide or a road map, if you will, for the way forward. Um. I like what you said DeRay, that we’re out of processing mode or we’re we’re trying to kick ourselves out of processing mode and jump start into, you know, uh education and let’s deal with this thing mode. Uh. My good, great friend Karen Hunter, uh who has The Karen Hunter Show, she posted a this is where the my news is coming from a meme list. But it kind of is uh she posted a list of things that she says are a pretty solid uh road plan that came from Bernice King. Dr. King’s daughter, of course, on how to survive this thing. Um. It’s a ten list. It’s a ten item list. You can go to Karen Hunter’s show on her IG or my IG story and see it. But it’s just ten simple steps. Don’t ever use his name. 45 will do. Remember, this is a regime and he is not acting alone. That is a very, very good point. Do not argue with those who support him. It doesn’t work. Focus on his policies, not his orangeness and his mental state. Keep your message positive. They want everybody to be angry and fearful because this is the soil from which their darkest policies will grow. Number number six is no more helpless/hopeless talk. Number seven, support artists and their art. Number eight, be careful to not spread fake news. Always check it. Number nine, take care of yourselves. And number ten is resist. And you know, none of that is about policy. None of that is about wrangling with various electoral metrics and voter geography and age and range. It’s just about doing the basic things that recognize humanity. And also, it kind of reminds us as he’s making these crazy ass appointments and he’s announcing these crazy plans and you’re like, wow, he’s actually going to go through with this stuff. Yes, but the power is in us. I spent a lot of time since the election in the old country between Alabama and Saint Louis just to, you know, connect with real people again. And, you know, my dad, in all of his aging southern Black man wisdom is like, hey, man, you know, I see him making these appointments and they doing this and talking about that. But and they think they done bought this thing I don’t think it’s going to go how they think it’s going to go [laugh] and you know and and and he understands all of the human nature in politics the same way we do with none of the academics. And he’s saying people have it in them the capacity to resist. People have it in us the capacity to build community and build safe spaces for ourselves. Peoples have the capacity in themselves to recognize evil and simply not roll over and comply. And you can get into a very dark space when you think about, man, the Department of Government Efficiency and these people have bought everything and all these contracts and the world is going to be privatized and normal people are going to be shut out. Yeah, but I don’t think it’s going to go how they think it’s going to go. Right? And that is a simple statement. But I find some some power and solace in that. Also recognizing that we have survived these times before. So I just thought this list was a really kind of simple but substantive way to determine how we can go forward. I’m part of the problem by saying his name every segment on MSNBC. Right. Uh and we. I’m still trying to find a way to stay informed while not participating in the 24 hour every minute of every day hamster wheel of terror in the in the in the guise of informing folks. So I just I just believe in our capacity to find a way to survive within ourselves. And I think that if we all kind of commit to doing that, then it ain’t going to go how he thinks it’s going to go.
DeRay Mckesson: So this list I saw the list online and I saw it when you posted it. And I like the list. The only thing I’d add is um, is a part of their project is rooted in making you second guess yourself about what you believe and know to be true.
Don Calloway: Yes yes.
DeRay Mckesson: And we can’t stop just like trusting. I think Matt Gaetz is a great example. Matt Gaetz is nominated for secretary of defense. Now he is as qualified as, you know, somebody I met in the bodega this morning. He is he don’t know. He he knows nothing about defense. Not qualified to be the secretary. He is under investigation for sexual assault by the House. All these things. And it is being presented as like a really normal nomination like they are you know, the Republicans are privately pushing back saying that they’re not going to let it be a recess, a recess appointment. The leader of the Senate on the Republican side is publicly saying that they should not that the committee should not release the investigation into Matt Gaetz. Like all of these things. And if this was a Democrat or a Black person, it would be wall to wall coverage about Matt Gaetz being nominated with no credentials. I mean, and you can you can name all the people. Project 2025, I know people I went to college with who literally argued me down. They’re like, Trump said Project 2025 is not his plan. You guys are just da da da da da. And then who gets appointed to head the FCC? The guy who wrote the Project 2025 section about the FCC. And we just can’t let up on just saying the truth out loud, even when it feels silly. And I will say, this is the first time in my political life where I’ve checked out of the 24 hour news cycle. Even I it like triggers me to see the nominations coming. I’m like, no more alerts. I see who he’s nominated and it stresses me out. And normally I’m sort of like, I can deal with it, but this just is so wild that I got to like, pace myself because it is it does feel overwhelming. Even the Democrats, I don’t know if you saw that Trump and team are um pushing forward a bill that will allow the secretary of Treasury to take the nonprofit status of any group that they say is engaged in terrorism, which is going to be all of us. It’s going to be the NAACP. It’s going to be campaign zero. It’s going to be the ACLU. They’re going to do this wantonly, knowing that eventually they’ll lose. Well, what does it mean to lose when you lock us all up for four years in litigation and courts. Like we will not be able to do work when you have hamstrung the money. I say this to say that there were a set of Democrats that voted for that. That is crazy to me. We should be shaming those people to the end of time and talking to their voters about what that that is that is unacceptable on our side like we got to push and fight those people because we can’t participate in this.
Myles E. Johnson: I think it was really interesting to me that Bernice King was the one to generate this post because I had such like a viscerally negative response to it. [laugh] And I think it is because this is usually the constitution that Black people are given, either usually not never, never a meme. You know, we’re in a different era, but it’s always usually like subconsciously like telegraphed to Black people, uh this is what you need to do. And, you know, I think it might be time for some um hopelessness. I think it might be some time for some surrender. I think it might be time uh to just not to support artists and support the artist, but really make sure that you’re not just supporting people who are going to be able to get rich and be insulated from the effects of everything and have no critical awareness of what’s going on. And then uh and then and then endorse a corporate Democrat and then be surprised, like I think I think we need a little bit of pessimism. And I think if I can make like a quick metaphor, I think sometimes when I see tragedy hit specifically Black people specifically aware, politically active Black people. We react a lot like how we say like Black men react to their health. They’ll just ignore it and deny it. I think the good news is I feel like this is so absurd that it looks like white supremacy is having it’s like this white nationalism is having this really weird um last gasp. But I think the other thing we have to deal with is that if white supremacy and patriarchy and and white nationalism is having a it’s last gasps, that means that we will be left living in a corpse. And I think that if you’re left living in a corpse, you have to be aware of that. And I think it’s about it’s it’s about that time. You know, I’m I feel like I mention age so much on this podcast and I hate it. And and and I really do apologize. I hate it. But I do think that if I’m 33 and tired of that narrative, I can only imagine how somebody ten years, 20 years, 30 years, 40, 50 years is uh is tired of that narrative. I really do think that this type of um just toxic, positive Dr. King stuff, it really it really affects me now. You know, I’m like, no things doing things things are bleak. Things are things are bad. Things things things do not look good. They they just said anybody is better to be in these positions then yo Black ass or you’re a woman or you’re anybody. And they say, who you? You a podcaster? You need a job? Yeah, get it. There’s just such a opposition to our progress in America when we think about integrating it with government and politics that I believe that is really, really, really, really time for Black people to stop offering their life force, their bodies, their intellect and their moral integrity to these institutions because it is cannibalizing us and it is birthing a type of deep disappointment that I think we won’t be able to wake up from because we are so tired of being hit upside the head every single time we do everything just like the Bible and Dr. King and Jesus and and Earth Wind and Fire told us to do. That that is my thoughts. [laughter] [banter]
DeRay Mckesson: [?] Earth Wind and Fire made it in.
Don Calloway: It was certainly not the uh I think we have to remember that this was the work of Dr. King’s daughter. I got it from Carrie, uh from Karen Hunter. But the the list is supposedly created by Bernice King, and she is her father’s daughter. And uh I appreciate the pushback not only against Dr. King, but also Mike Tyson, sibling Myles today uh a cis het brother is having a rough time in this episode.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m over here like let me go ahead and make sure I do not uh I’m about to get ate up.
Don Calloway: Calling all 45 and up cis het brothers for support today on Pod Save the People. But it’s all good. No I I I appreciate the radical impulse and and the reality is it shouldn’t be that radical to say F this. We’re not dealing with this. We’re not we’re not giving up our experience to this. As the great Casey Gerald said in a clip that floated back online last week on Morning Joe several years back, is that, you know, I have no interest in throwing any more Black genius toward this question. And that I find that very similar to what you just said. And as much as the the waste of our time, the waste of our talents, right uh towards fitting into this, you know, Caligulan system, perhaps that therein lies the victory in our loss.
De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. And I think I, you know, I agree with the little bit of of both of y’all but what I’ve been giving a lot of thought to and mostly just be you know, I’m still, you know, a year since my dad passed and um my dad practiced criminal defense law for 40 years. He went to Morehouse, went to Howard Law, grew up in southeast D.C.. My brothers and I when we were planning the funeral, we’re like, how many white people you think gonna come here? Did dad know white people? Did he? I mean, this man built his life completely autonomous from white people, insti– like all of it.
Don Calloway: Hallelujah.
De’Ara Balenger: Um. You know? And I think. [?]
Don Calloway: Yeah.
De’Ara Balenger: –and growing up, you know, we went to Black doctors, we went to Black dentists. Like that was just what it was growing up in DC and, you know, and being raised by my my mom and dad. But, you know, even on the campaign trail and just. Myles, you people are suffering and Black folks are suffering. So even after this Black president, even after having so many congressional leaders, civil rights leaders, yada, yada, yada, like our people are still suffering and it’s bad and it’s really, really bad. And so I think my pushback with the campaign was like my pushback with anybody that was like, well, Black men aren’t doing this or doing that. Yeah, we need to have a family meeting. But really, sort of what needs to happen is like how can we care for one another as Black people more deeply and understand that we’re not going to like all of us? We’re not. That’s just human nature. But I do feel like when we evaluate ourselves or action ourselves through a reaction to white people or white supremacy, or as a reflection to white people or white supremacy. I think, Myles, to your point, like that’s what that’s what fucks us up, right? Like it really has to be like independent thought mind heart around what our people need and what we need to be whole and I’ve been listening to a lot of Tupac lately because that’s just where I am. And they killed him. Um. But even in the song, Changes where Tupac’s like, We need to change. He’s talking to Black people. He’s talking to us. We need to change the way we eat. We need to change the way we live and change the way we treat each other. And I think so much of that is true because part of this suffering is like, you know, I read an article over the weekend that, you know, America’s 70% obese, but when you break down those numbers to Black folks. And you drive around, you know, an underserved neighborhood, whatever you want to call it, you’ll see Popeyes, McDonalds, like all of that, like so it’s just I think my and this is what my news is about. It’s like where where can I be helpful in sort of like the protection and, and creating wholeness for, for Black people.
DeRay Mckesson: I just want to push De’Ara, a second. I’m a double click on that. Um and push a little bit, Myles, because I actually agree with your premise and maybe not the pessimism piece. Actually, I I’m sold on this idea that like new strategy, we need new strategy the like the we fought before. We’ll fight again. Da da da da da even if it’s true, I think is not a motivator. And I think people are tired. I am people right? I’m just gonna like I put my best everything forward. I’ve slept in basements and got arrested and I’m like, damn, I gotta do it again. Got had already done it three times. I’m like, uh not again, I just want to have dinner. Right? So I’m I’m with you on that. I do um and De’Ara to your point, there is a real you know, some people literally will not survive if we let up. Like it just a like the reality of not fighting back will be death for a whole lot of people. Fighting back will certainly not be life for everybody but but just sort of laying down and being like, I’m not going to do it this time will hurt people we love. So like, I think that is true to me. And when I think about the middle ground, I do think it is. Um. I’m interested in how we can rethink about political power. I’m giving a talk at the [?] this week in memory of Malcolm’s famous one of his last big speeches at the [?]. You and I’ve been listening to a lot of Malcolm and one of the things that I think Malcolm did so well, you know, and he very different than King. He was sort of like, I want to help Black people get the language and understand just what’s happening around them, right? Like this political education part, I think, was so much of it. And, you know, people reached out to me since the election and they are looking for an organizing home. They are like trying to figure out, they don’t consider themselves activists say they sort of don’t want to do this as a job, but they are trying to figure out like, where can they go to be more involved than Twitter or Facebook?
Don Calloway: My Lord, yes lord.
DeRay Mckesson: Or Instagram.
Don Calloway: Come on.
DeRay Mckesson: And it’s not campaign zero right now, but I’m trying to help them. But there is a there is how do we build community? And I think the right has done a really good job of using those crazy podcasts in the to make people feel a sense of belonging and they have exploited it to high hell and we are suffering for it. Uh. But Myles and my conclusion is not hopelessness. I do think that people want to be in community with each other a little more honestly about what is possible and with the left, you know what’s true just numbers wise. The left can’t win without us. They can’t. They can do a lot of interesting things, but they cannot the numbers, they cannot win without us. It just is true.
Myles E. Johnson: I hear you. Even as you and De’Ara are talking. I was like trying like I’m trying. [laugh] because I have never cried on this podcast I’m like and today won’t be the day. But it just really makes me emotional because um I think just living in a lot of working class neighborhoods but not necessarily being in the background, it it’s just y’all. And I hear what you all are like I really. I really, really, really do hear what y’all are saying. But and I’m going to say this till I’m blue in the face. But the class stratification between inside of the Black community is really scary. And I and, you know, just like having like neighbors and, you know, a neighbor who’s like, oh my rent is about to go up to, you know, cause I always live in hoods. So I’m like, is the rent where I’m living right now is either like oh it’s about to go up to like $800. This is too expensive. Like, that’s the kind of hood I’m in right now. And how it will always unless I’m in New York, where it’s like 4000, no matter where you at. But like, but like, that’s like where I’m at right now. And then, you know, having a neighbor who is elderly and her going to the hospital and her being like I almost like had a heart attack. And and I’m seeing the community and I’m seeing the landlord being Black, but then the landlord not um fixing up a building next door and letting these old Black people um live there. And I know these are just all like kind of like these anecdotal private experiences, but they just feel really representative of the erosion that I’m feeling. So when I’m in these times where we’re talking about Malcolm X at Oxford, I’m like, Yeah, I feel really great and I feel full of hope and I and it feels great, but I’m but I’m, I feel like I’m like experiencing such a deep separation in Black community and there’s just no space for connection. So I hear people on Twitter talking about it, but Twitter is 20% of the like what is it like what, some 20% of the whole population. I don’t know how many percentage of Black people are on Twitter. It’s just that so many Black people of so many um of so many ages and genders are falling through the cracks. And I think us all. So I’ll just to because I’m emotional so I’m probably not making the most coherent sense, so what I will say about the Malcolm X piece is that Malcolm X saw every four years voting for a Democrat as as as one, as maybe as one thing. You know, though where a lot of people who are of that tradition see it as one chance to gain power. I think that when those four in between those four years and in between those moments, there has been such a just failure to to make sure that we to make sure that the Black community stay up. I’m like I’m like I’m I try not to say where I live, but where I’m living right now. I’m like, a lot of these places are could be flipped, you know what I mean? I’m like, if you got $200,000 or $100,000, you can buy this and rent it out and just be up and be here. You and it’s not going to happen through the government. And and and I think that is just as important. And it just seems like everywhere I been people I talk to, the stats that I see, the data that I see, it just seems like that is just not an option it’s either through this collegiate democratic system or you’re going to be a lost Black person. I’m and that just feels antithetical to our–
Don Calloway: You know.
Myles E. Johnson: To being Black.
Don Calloway: Myles we we we have to get to your news. Um. But I think that your news is is connected to my my larger thoughts in in response to what you’re saying and I appreciate you sharing that. So I think I’ll wait till after till after you.
De’Ara Balenger: Yes, we are suffering, but it will be up to and not even just the privileged one of like I just, [sigh] capitalism has also sucked Black folks in and our need to ascend and rise and all of this like.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s right De’Ara, that’s all I was trying to say.
De’Ara Balenger: It’s not it’s not helping us. Like for us to view accomplishment through a capitalistic lens that is devoid of community and community building. Like, that’s an issue. And I you know, I my daddy didn’t let me do Jack and Jill and all that kind of stuff growing up. He just was like, nah, like we’re in southeast. We’re staying in southeast. I don’t care what any y’all do. This is where we live, you know what I’m saying? And I think it is. It is that like it is us staying as connected to one another in community as possible because we all live in stratified families. I’ll speak for my family. I know there are some Black folks that are just rich. But I think that is I think that’s what I want to get. That’s what I want to get back to, is like, yes to, I think it’s less important now to be and I’ve gotten these texts too DeRay. But where should I be giving my money to? Well, what school does your kid go to and what are you doing at the school? You know what I’m saying? Like, how are you? What are you are you spending your weekends in the Hamptons or in Aspen or like or volunteering? Any one of us can go volunteer at a school or a jail.
DeRay Mckesson: I do think too to your point De’Ara, this is where the defining and to Myles the defining the terms matters is that capitalism and we need new language because it that has taken on a life of its own. But it is alluring and makes total sense. If it’s fair and like it, the whole thing assumes fairness and meritocracy. Like the premise assumes a foundation that is rooted in something mildly equitable. Like that is what the that is when it works. But we never see that, you know? So when I see people strive for it, then I’m like, it actually doesn’t matter how hard you work because it’s never going to happen, right? Not because you’re not worthy or da da da, but that the foundation’s actually screwed by design. And that is where the capitalist project becomes such fodder because it just assumes a reality that doesn’t exist. Um and I do worry. I see, you know, did you all see the, did you see the article that was like um the influencers are now coming out for Trump. They feel emboldened and da da da. I’m like this is something.
Don Calloway: I did not see that. And I’m probably better for having not.
DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming.
[AD BREAK]
Myles E. Johnson: My news is from Chicago Sun-Times. It’s about Ella Jenkins. Um. She’s known as Chicago’s first lady of children’s music. She died at 100 years old, y’all know how I feel about folks, specifically Black folks when you reach over that age of 85. I’m not hollerin over the coffin. I’m not uh you’re not gonna have to sweep me up off the floor. I’m just gonna be like safe safe flight sister, you really you you ate that for a century. You did you did the unknown. Um. Let me read a little bit of this article. Um. In case you all are not familiar with her and her work, Ella Jenkins work. Children’s musician Ella Jenkins, who encouraged millions of kids to sing along with her career in a career that spanned more than 60 years has died. She was 100. Her publicist and friend of 35 years, Lynn Orman told the Sun-Times she died peacefully on Saturday at a senior living facility in Chicago. For decades, Ms. Jenkins walked out of her townhome in Lincoln Park, instruments in hand, and traveled the city, state, country and world singing to children. Recording more than 40 albums and teaching her call and response style folk music. She’s been called the first lady of children’s music, received a lifetime achievement Grammy Award and saw her work immortalized in the Library of Congress. Of course, it’s timely because when somebody passes, I always want to like show my respect to them in a timely manner. But what really felt timely about it is I was watching the LeVar Burton documentary and and thinking about him in Reading Rainbow, and I love Mr. Rogers, and I put on Pee-Wee Herman in in my um in my in my wacky living room just like I was like, just for just for on mute, just for it to be on. And to be able to communicate with children is really being able to manipulate where the future goes. And I think sometimes we overlook it because uh children’s art, children’s music, children’s literature is not seen as as sophisticated and not seen as academic and maybe not seen as as important. But I love the idea that Ella was really that she really knew the importance of it. I love that it was based in folk music, a Black, a historically Black tradition. And I also love that she knew that through melody, through song, through chords, you can really change how a child feels around the world. Because the main thing that’s delivered when it comes to children’s music is safety and wonder. And to be able to do both of those things at the same time, to both feel free to wonder and feel safe is something that really lets people be ambitious with where their life can go. And to deliver that to the children of Chicago is just amazing. Amazing, Amazing. I I hope um and I want for more Black folks to create things for children. To think about that, to put that on their agendas. I want more Black folks to do, even if it’s a small thing. Everybody’s not going to do no songs and and and write a children’s book. But even if it’s a small zoom meeting where you just ask kids how they are, when you just let them know that they are kids who don’t know, don’t know you, maybe don’t have a figure, or maybe they don’t have a mother. So you’re and you’re and you’re a woman and maybe they don’t have a father and you’re a man. I think those things. Um. But sometimes we don’t talk about how radical those things are, specifically adults outside of the context of um the enemy, which is parents and teachers. [laugh] Um. So having a having an adult that’s on your side that’s saying that there is safety and wonder on the other side of adulthood is so important, specifically, specifically if that person is able to deliver it to Black people. So I wanted to bring this news to the pod because I think it was, A, she’s just amazing and she passed away. And I wanted to give honor, but I just think that, you know, I’m a woo woo girl. So I think her passing during this moment is also a universal ancestral signal to um not forget these type of lanes when it comes to children’s literature, film and um and and of course, music. And the last thing that I’ll say is that our greatest minds did know this. So when you look at Bell Hooks and Toni Morrison, they both not just have one children’s book, they have a lot and series of children’s books.
De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Underneath their inside of their um their library of writings. And I don’t just those aren’t money grabs. They understood the power of saying something radical to a Black child. And just to, for example, in Bell Hook’s book, um uh she shows she made it sure there was an illustration of a Black boy sitting. And I never thought about that. She says it in she talks about it in a talk. She says, you know what? Black boys and children, film and literature and music are always kind of shown in action doing something. But you don’t see a lot of Black children just sitting or excuse me, Black boys just sitting and reflecting or reading or chilling. And that was such an important thing. And I and and and when we think about meditation and the rest deck and the nap ministry, it’s like, oh yeah, that is really important. That really is important to normalize in a page of a children’s book early on. So sorry for, sorry for my deviation, but I just wanted to uh just reiterate how important it is to add that to your creative portfolios or your business portfolios are things that directly affect children that are kind of outside of just education and and and the things that we usually talk to about children about.
DeRay Mckesson: Myles, have you read the book um Should We Burn Babar?
Myles E. Johnson: Mm mm I haven’t. I haven’t.
DeRay Mckesson: You should read it immediately.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
DeRay Mckesson: I read it a long time ago and it’s great it is probably the most famous book that is critical of the genre of children’s stories and and everything. And what Herb Kohl argues, which I, I remember reading it being like, why don’t I ever think about this, he you know, as an organizer, he doesn’t say it like this. I would say it like this, is that every story is a lesson in power. So he uses Babar as he he’s like, you know, there are all these reasons to love Babar. You know, I think everybody on this, De’Ara and Don, you remember Babar the elephant?
De’Ara Balenger: I, I know. I’m like, I love Babar. So what are you about to say?
DeRay Mckesson: Okay so he’s like–
Myles E. Johnson: Right. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: –remember this is this is a colonial project. Babar becomes king because his mother gets killed by a hunter, which is sort of glossed over in the movie in the the thing. Why is he special? Because he’s educated not with the elephants, but he goes off to Paris, ie. sort of the white that the humans, not his people, educate him. He comes back and therefore he is just smarter than everybody else. Right? Like there’s this. So he unpacks this narrative about power in Babar and then he has a essay that was the first of its kind of called was Rosa tired? And he breaks down why all the why the spreading of the idea that Rosa Parks was tired and sat down on the bus is dangerous. He’s like it makes it seem like her act was an accident, that she just got so exhausted that she sat down and therefore the civil rights movement happened. It completely ruins her agency as an activist, as somebody who planned it. And I think about, you know, that book came out a while ago. But, you know, people are like, everything’s PC and da da da and you’re like, no, no, we should actually talk about what power looks like, because there are a lot of people I grew up reading, I when I heard Rosa Parks, she was tired. That was the story I was taught. She was tired, sat down. They told her to get up. She was like, no I’m not getting up. I’m too tired. My feet hurt, da da da. And then only later I was like, oh that’s a that was a political project to tell the story that way. I did not understand that. And I the reason, Myles, that I want to just double click on what you said and agree is that one of the things that’s interesting as my friends start to have kids is Miss Rachel, Yo Gabba Gabba, Peppa Pig, Paw Patrol. These stories are sending a message about what power looks like. And not only are the kids taking it in, but the parents are watching the same episode 8000 times. Like you you might not think you’re paying attention to it. But Caillou is a great example for me, I don’t know if you all know Caillou. But Caillou is sort of a smart ass to his parents and I know a lot of parents who are like my kid can’t watch Caillou. They’re like, oh no, because the way he talks back is just we we can’t do that in the house. But it is such a clear example of how people see the way that what happens in children’s things come into the home. On the flip side, I know a lot of people who are like Miss Rachel is the reason why my child knows how to talk about their feelings, why my child knows colors and time, especially during the pandemic. Miss Rachel is a huge part of people’s lives and helped guide kids on YouTube. And that’s not nothing. That is that is power. That’s cultural currency that matters. So should we burn Babar, incredible book. I just looked on Amazon and it’s back in print. When I read it, it was out of print. I had to order from like a rare bookstore.
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
DeRay Mckesson: But I’m happy that in this moment it is back.
Myles E. Johnson: Please drop the link.
Don Calloway: You know my Myles. You said a lot um and there’s so many things to touch on. But thank you for the notion of of mentioning the money grab. If you look at what’s happening right now, a lot of celebrities have children’s books. I think you need to consider as a red flag, how many of these have they done? Right. And and artists, authors do this. This is what they do. And Sister Jenkins was I’m reading her bio that you sent me and I read some other stuff. She was a prolific artist who happened to specialize in the children’s genre, so she did this for real. And so that means that work is from an authentic special place of the divine place it’s not the money grab. You know um and so I’m glad you mentioned that. You know, I think before we started recording, I mentioned that I love that you bring these news stories um because we wouldn’t know about these people otherwise who have contributed so richly to making the whole world better, all of us individually more humane, more caring, more loving. Certainly people who will who who heard her work early on are now elders and have treated folks better for having encountered her. And there’s you know, Sister Judith Jamison just passed, um uh who was one of the architects of the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. I grew up with Katherine Dunham right across the way in East Saint Louis. And these are people who have demonstrably dragged the world forward, whether or not anyone knew their names outside of you know their immediate sphere of influence. They made an impact in that ripple effect. But, you know, I would suggest that these are people who obviously um not by any metric of fairness, but these are people who dealt with a world much more dastardly and vile than the one we live in today. And I don’t mean to go back to this Pollyannaish narrative of they persisted nah, but they found a way to create space for joy and love and uplifting humanity, even in the face of some absolute horrendous shit. Right. My dad talks about surviving the Bull Connor’s of the world, and it sounds cliche, but they really did. But not only did they survive that stuff, but they created this really important, dynamic space for joy and for love and for for for for wholeness, probably for folks from marginalized communities. You know, and I look at your wall, man, and you man, I look at your wall sibling Myles and you have just you give so much to the world every day. [?]
Myles E. Johnson: Man is a man is gender neutral in–
Don Calloway: There you go.
Myles E. Johnson: –Black tongue. Okay, go ahead.
Don Calloway: Very well. Thank you. Thank you for making me feel better.
Myles E. Johnson: Now Trump going to chop that up.
Don Calloway: Thank you for making me feel better about it. I just don’t want to be lazy about it going forward. But I just think that, you know, you have so much to give to the world and and and you do give so much to the world that I, I find my my worry is in the Myles’s of the world checking out. Right. I think you can check out from politics. I think you can check out from World affairs. I think you can divest from Tesla stock. All of that is great. But you cannot get so disillusioned so that you remove your gifts from the world. Because Sister Jenkins did not do that right, and Katherine Dunham did not and Judith Jamison did not do that. Right. And so it’s important to me that my kids see revelation at least once a year. Right. Uh.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Don Calloway: And and and it’s important to somebody that she taught at Roosevelt in in Chicago for a year. And and and that’s what that’s what the despair thing. And it’s important to say do not despair and do be of good cheer. Because while those things sound cliche, cliches are cliche because they’re true, because the Myles’s of the world can’t check out. Because if you do, that’s when we’re real fucked up.
De’Ara Balenger: One of the things Ella Jenkins, one of her dear friends, said about her is that she was a person of extreme integrity and love. And I’m reading Edwidge Danticat’s book right now um it’s called We’re Alone. Yes, we are. Um. And she it’s a it’s sort of a book of essays. In one of her essays she talks a lot about Toni Morrison and Toni. She spoke at Toni Morrison’s funeral. Um. And she talks about how extraordinarily kind Toni Morrison was, is um and so I guess, you know, so much of this is like very existential for for me. And um I’ve been thinking a lot about what I want people to say about me and what my contributions were when I’m gone. And so I think. I think to sort of to Don’s point around like we yes, there’s yes to the just to all all of the things but I think our in our interior, making sure that in our interactions with one another, no matter the despair in the world, can still come from a place of extreme integrity, love and kindness. I think it’s very important and I think it’s sort of the hardest practice. But Don, to your point around how Ella Jenkins had to practice this in the ’60s and ’70s versus where we are now, I think is just an extraordinary reminder that. If you if you’re if you sort of have a practice where you’re being expansive about your thinking and your and your love, um that this is the time now, this is the most important time to to to do that.
Myles E. Johnson: Thank you, Uncle Don, for for that. I think a lot of people, you know, me, me included, are trying to figure out what your place is. And you just have to be honest about how you feel sometimes. And I think sometimes I know I’m not the only person who feels this way. I think a lot of Black people. Um. But, you know, I’m talking about me. So it’s me. But like, I think a lot of people are trying to figure out what their place is, um where is their value going? Where is there room for artists like like myself, like and how do you and how do you try to be anti-consumerist, anti-capitalist, anti-white supremacist and still um bring that joy? But I do want to just make a clear distinction that I do believe that my own joy and my own Black faith is independent from the American Electorial project. And I know that I can replenish that. And I’m always down to do something for Black people. But I think sometimes even being in front of DeRay and Don and De’Ara and seeing these excellent Black people, I I want to be able to feel really good about my contributions. But then it just feels like um either I have to uh take it all off the wall and make it and and make it something else, or um I have to put it all on the wall and just deal with the fact that um yeah, we’re we’re, you know, I don’t. I don’t know.
Don Calloway: I would direct you to two things to kind of uh make keep the, the art and everybody, frankly, to keep the artistic spirit engaged, particularly in these times. Um. Brother Chad Sanders. I never met him, but he has an amazing Instagram in which he is just challenging the existing structures of Hollywood every day, I think it’s at @ChadSand.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Don Calloway: And it’s just him talking to the camera, walking around Brooklyn like these are the gatekeepers. This is why they’re stupid. This is why you can beat em. Go be excellent. Right. Uh. And it’s a really, really awesome account to follow. Uh. But secondly, in 1929, Langston Hughes wrote an essay in this magazine called I think it’s called The Crisis. It was a production of the NAACP at the time. And he wrote an essay called The Negro Artist and the Racial Mountain. And the theme of it is that no great artist has ever been great. If they have refused to be themselves and produce what their spirit desires. And uh no great Negro artist has ever been great without embracing Blackness. And I would, you know, you could fill in the word Negro with queer or with woman or with whatever you want, but the point of it is that um you cannot take it off the wall and produce what God has put you here to produce for the world. You know what I mean? And so uh Langston is much more profound in his description of that, that, that sensibility than I. But I try to read that a couple of times a year and uh, and, and and it helps make, make some, some reason in this, this uh this crazy world. [music break]
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app, and we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media, it’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger and Myles E. Johnson.
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