Rooting for the Anti-Hero | Crooked Media
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October 27, 2022
Dare We Say
Rooting for the Anti-Hero

In This Episode

We are fully in our villain era and Josie, Alycia and Yasmine are setting boundaries bbs! Taylor Swift might think it’s exhausting always rooting for the anti-hero, but baby we live for them. This week we’re taking a cold hard look at “the villain”….are villains just heroes in disguise? Who are the real villains? Is being a villain kind hot? Plus, The Ickuation Room. Today’s topic: sexy v. funny costumes.

Show Notes

We are doing a GIVEAWAY!! of an exclusive Dare We Say gift box, filled with self-care essentials that’ll make you feel like the hot girl you are. All you have to do is follow us on Instagram @darewesay, like the pinned post, and tag two besties by November 10th.

Wait a second, are all Disney villains gay? [The Tempest 6/4/20]
Is 2022 really the year of the villain? [i-D 4/21/22]




Josie Totah: Cue pitbull. Cue the trumpets. Cue the football band drums playing. And we burst through the thing that people burst through– 


Yasmine Hamady: Yes. 


Josie Totah: –in pep rallies. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yes. 


Josie Totah: And it’s just and it’s Yasmine in a bikini. 


Yasmine Hamady: Okay. 


Josie Totah: In those heels that have like um Barbie doll heads in them and Alycia’s in full latex with locks like to the floor and like [?], like 30 inch floor. And um there I am, just naked with a a tiny tassel only on my left breast. Um. 


Yasmine Hamady: Please. 


Josie Totah: And we’re Dare We fucking Say. 


Yasmine Hamady: Hi everyone! 


Josie Totah: Hello. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Hi. 


Yasmine Hamady: That visual is actually insane. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m still living in it. It’s a lot. 


Josie Totah: For those who don’t know me. I’m Josie Totah. Unless you’re a bouncer at Pump, then uh I don’t exist. 


Yasmine Hamady: Um. Hi, everyone. I’m Yasmine Hamady. I’m um. I’m the girl who got voted most fun on a deserted island in high school. Do with that with what you will. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Hi, I’m Alycia Pascual-Peña. Um. And I was voted kindest in– 


Yasmine Hamady: That’s– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –my senior year. 


Yasmine Hamady: –so true. That is so true. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I wish I was kidding. That’s so embarrassing. Like everyone was voted cool shit. 


Josie Totah: Not that is, what that is true. 


Yasmine Hamady: I think it’s iconic. [laugh]


Josie Totah: I think I. I think I can’t decide if mine, I think it was most likely to be on SNL or um– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oooh. 


Josie Totah: –Most likely it was it was that and most like to be famous and me and Cam both got it and I’m Josie Totah and I was voted most likely to be friends with Kim Kardashian in high school. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Tea. 


Yasmine Hamady: Whoa. 


Josie Totah: That’s just a flat out lie. 


Yasmine Hamady: Hi, everyone. Hi guys.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Guys. You know this season, this is Halloween. 


[singing together] This is Halloween. Halloween. Halloween. Ahh! 


Josie Totah: [singing in a mumbling way] This is Halloween, Halloween! 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was at Disney yesterday so I’m feeling very– 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, you were. You’re a fucking Disney adult Jojo Siwa ass. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Whoa whoa– 


Josie Totah: How was it? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –Whoa whoa.


Yasmine Hamady: With the ears. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No Jojo slander. No Disney slander. I had a great time. 


Yasmine Hamady: How were the ears that you fucking wore? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh, so are you racist? Because my ears were Encanto ears, and they made me very emotional. 


Yasmine Hamady: That is not racist. You were wearing Mickey Mouse ears [?]. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was wearing Latino Mickey ears. Why don’t you like them huh? 


Yasmine Hamady: How would I know that? How would I know that on FaceTime? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Well maybe you should have paid attention. 


Yasmine Hamady: Okay, Alycia, I just think that you’re a Disney adult and it’s just–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m not a Disney adult, you hater, because I actually have not been to Disney that many times. But it was so lovely going yesterday. It was all spooky, all the beautiful children, so much joy. I also like was so sentimental. I saw the Coco show. 


Yasmine Hamady: Aww. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Do you understand that literally five years ago, kids didn’t have any Disney Latin representation? 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: And now we have ofrendas at Disney. That’s insane. 


Yasmine Hamady: Can I just say–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Anyways, can I finish? 


Yasmine Hamady: Pause for just one second, I’m so sorry. Josie looks like– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Why is she in a dungeon? 


Yasmine Hamady: –she’s, like a like she’s an author that she’s going on Zoom for an English class– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: What in the Stephen King– 


Yasmine Hamady: –cause she’s a guest for. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –is shit is this? 


Yasmine Hamady: This is very much she’s like an author– [banter]


Josie Totah: [?] my name is my name is uh uh Tina and it’s like I’m from East London and [speakingin vaguely a British accent] [indistinct] 


Yasmine Hamady: She only smokes Marlboro reds. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Eew. 


Yasmine Hamady: That is it. With red wine. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Okay. 


Yasmine Hamady: Continue. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: My my closing remarks are, is you can go to Disneyland and hear Spanish songs and hear all these different culture songs. It just it was just really beautiful. And it made me, even as an adult, feel so sentimental and so proud of my heritage. 


Josie Totah: I love that. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Because you can go and like write to your ancestors–


Yasmine Hamady: That’s huge. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –At Disney, which is, like, so cool. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: But um it’s Halloween chicas. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yup. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You guys dressing up?


Yasmine Hamady: Um. Yes. Hallo– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: What are you being? 


Yasmine Hamady: Halloween um I am this week going to be– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh god. 


Yasmine Hamady: –Drum roll, please. [hands drum roll sound on table] 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Look at Josie’s [?]. 


Yasmine Hamady: Snooki. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh my god. 


Yasmine Hamady: A national treasure. She is a national treasure. And this woman this woman can do no wrong. She’s done a lot of wrongs. But this woman, Jersey Shore is the blueprint of our democracy. I really believe it.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Okay your time is done. 


Yasmine Hamady: No, it’s so fucking funny. Um I just want to say being funny– 


Josie Totah: She’s a national hero. 


Yasmine Hamady: She’s a national hero, right Josie. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: She’s kind of an icon. 


Yasmine Hamady: She is an icon. She took a– 


Josie Totah: I remember growing up and watching her. 


Yasmine Hamady: Jionni Jionni, what are you talking about? Jwoww. No, I want a pickle in my mouth. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: What? 


Yasmine Hamady: Yup. She loves pickles. 


Josie Totah: No I’m actually really happy that you’re dressing up as her, because every single year you send me the same photo of Snooki and you never dress as her. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Tea. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, but we–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: But I do love your Guy Fieri. It’s iconic. 


Yasmine Hamady: If we could get that. I dressed up as Guy Fieri in college my senior year. And can I just say me with the mullet on, the beard, the a spatula and Doc Martin’s and like a going fast shirt and sunglasses. And I still got laid that night and I literally was in Guy Fieri cosplay. 


Josie Totah: With who? Who?


Yasmine Hamady: Who? You don’t want to know Josie– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Why is she like this?


Yasmine Hamady: –because you know him Josie. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Why is she like this though? 


Yasmine Hamady: But you do know him. And so then um remember, I would dressed up as uh Tobias Funke from Arrested Development? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I know, I took all your pictures. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah you did. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I was proud. I took all– 


Yasmine Hamady: You did. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –Your pictures and videos. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, you did. Um.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Jojo, are you dressing up? 


Josie Totah: I’m not. I’m not a dresser upper like it sounds, in the idea of it sounds great, but I’m not someone like I don’t bake. I don’t like– 


Yasmine Hamady: Please. 


Josie Totah: I don’t paint and I don’t put costumes together. You know what I mean? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I respect that. 


Josie Totah: It’s just not in my–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You’re not a– 


Josie Totah: –brain? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –DIY girl and I respect that. 


Josie Totah: I wish that I could. I wish that I could paint my face and pick out a cute outfit. If I was going to be in town for Halloween. I think I would do something with Britney because I’m in a Britney era. 


Yasmine Hamady: Go on. 


Josie Totah: Recently. But. And Blackout is just like the most iconic album of all time. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Josie Totah: I’m also weirdly, I can’t even talk about it. 


Yasmine Hamady: Say it. 


Josie Totah: I can’t even talk about the music that I’ve been listening to recently. I feel I feel like I’m being really inappropriate. 


Yasmine Hamady: Why? What–


Josie Totah: Um. 


Yasmine Hamady: What kind of music are you listening to? It’s not like– 


Josie Totah: I never thought that I would say this. 


Yasmine Hamady: Uh huh. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No. 


Josie Totah: I’ve been listening to Taylor Swift. [laughter] 


Yasmine Hamady: I’m actually– [laughing]


Josie Totah: No, no, no. But anyone who knows me, like like you just would never think that I would be listening to Taylor Swift. 


Yasmine Hamady: Wait there’s actually a tear– 


Josie Totah: Like– 


Yasmine Hamady: –gonna come out of my fucking eye right now. 


Josie Totah: It’s almost like me and Taylor Swift are are complete opposite types of people. 


Yasmine Hamady: Josie which album? Josie which one? 


Josie Totah: Hold on I haven’t. No, no. I’ve been listening to Midnights, her most recent album, and I think it’s fucking great. I think, yes, she can annoy me sometimes. Lyrically she can annoy me sometimes, and I will stand with that only because I’m not really like that kind– she’s an such an incredible storyteller, but I’m like, I need less exposition when I’m being told stories, you know? She kind of spells it out, however, and people are going to literally come for me for that. However, I do think she’s one of like the greatest artists of all time. Obviously, everybody knows that. And– 


Yasmine Hamady: Josie [indistinct] actually– 


Josie Totah: This new album, this new album really hits. 


Yasmine Hamady: Does it? Uh. [sniffling] Because you saying that right now. I’ve tried for so long to get you on my Taylor Swift bandwagon. I’ve tried.


Josie Totah: Yeah Yas, I literally thought you were crazy. 


Yasmine Hamady: You said this and you’re like–


Josie Totah: And I thought you were crazy. 


Yasmine Hamady: I remember, like, you walked in on me in the– I was showering on the floor, listening to, right where you left me and you were like– 


Josie Totah: It was like walking in on someone, like, pleasuring themselves [indistinct].


Yasmine Hamady: And I’m just crying on the bathroom floor and you’re like, Yasmine, are you okay? And it’s just Taylor. Josie, welcome home. I just want to say, everyone, all the Swifties, we have something to say.


Josie Totah: I’m coming home. I think I’ve like matured or something because I’m just really enjoying it. And that’s just that’s just kind of where I’m at and we’re having a really good time together. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Wow. 


Yasmine Hamady: Alycia, also Alycia don’t–


Josie Totah: Alycia, do you hate Taylor Swift? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No actually– 


Yasmine Hamady: No she doesn’t. She doesn’t.


Josie Totah: Why does she seem mad?


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No, listen, listen. 


Yasmine Hamady: That’s true. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Listen, listen, listen. 


Josie Totah: But you seemed mad when I said that.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No, I wasn’t mad. I was just like, damn, because I knew how Yas was going to react. It was going to be a whole shebang. 


Yasmine Hamady: I hate you. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Three act play. And it just was. You feel me? I already knew what was coming. 


Yasmine Hamady: Are you calling me dramatic? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I mean. 


Yasmine Hamady: I’m not dramatic. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: But I will say no. I love Taylor Swift. I actually spent one of my birthdays. I don’t even think you know this, at a Taylor Swift concert. I love Taylor Swift, I think she’s great. I have an issue when people make Taylor Swift their personality. I have an issue with anyone that makes– 


Yasmine Hamady: –Anyone making– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –Anything their personality, like, you know, like the wine girls, the coffee– 


Josie Totah: So then you don’t have an issue with Taylor? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No, I think Taylor’s great. I just knew that that was going to come. 


Josie Totah: Have you listened to the new album though? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I have. It’s great. I’ve always thought that Taylor’s really talented. 


Yasmine Hamady: I have a, I have documentation of Alycia and I belting, the story of us, in my car. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. I enjoy Taylor. 


Josie Totah: Wait. What do you think? What do you think about the new album? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I think it’s good. I like I will say she’s not someone, look but it’s also just like it’s preference. I think that girl’s ridiculously talented. But, you know, like, if I’m in the car, I’m like, it’s just not the genre of music that I would listen to. But I think she’s great. I think Taylor’s great.


Josie Totah: I agree. But this new album hits. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: It’s great. But–


Josie Totah: I mean, not all. Not every song is my favorite song, but– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I think it’s because I’m just so stubborn– 


Josie Totah: –can I just say Lavender Haze–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: And Yas is always trying to get me to listen to Taylor, like, consistently, and I just can’t do it. 


Yasmine Hamady: What I need to do–


Josie Totah: [?] oppositional defiant disorder. I kind of have it, too. You’re like me. When someone tells us to do something, we’ll want to do the opposite.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: And do the opposite even more. Absolutely.


Josie Totah: Because we’re we’re natural born fighters. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: For sure. For sure.


Yasmine Hamady: Okay. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You want me to not do something? [banter] Tell me to do it.


Yasmine Hamady: Alycia, do not listen to Taylor Swift. Alycia, you will hate it so much. Alycia, don’t listen to any good music. 


Josie Totah: Spookie cookie um Doechii–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Period. 


Josie Totah: You guys, right now. I am coming up. And no, Mom, not on drugs. On a new era in my life. I’m calling it part two of my life for those that know me personally. Another way of calling it is my villain era. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Da da daaa. 


Josie Totah: Because it’s our Halloween episode. I’d like to welcome all of you to the Twat Zone. Just kidding. No, the Twilight Zone. No. 


Yasmine Hamady: The Twilight Zone. 


Josie Totah: And because it’s. And because it’s the Halloween episode. I would love to invite all of you into the villain era, and I’m just excited to get into it after the break. [music break]


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Hey, babes. We are doing a giveaway. [scream] Yes, a giveaway. Get excited. Of an exclusive, Dare We Say gift box filled with self-care essentials that will make you feel like the hot girl that you are sis. 


Yasmine Hamady: Ow, all you have to do is follow us on Instagram at @darewesay, like the pinned post and tag two Besties by November 10th. You don’t want to miss this. Head to at @darewesay right now. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: We’ll drop the link in the show notes. [music break] 




Josie Totah: You guys. I feel like when we talk about villains. There is categories to villains– 


Yasmine Hamady: Right. 


Josie Totah: –Right? Like villains are okay there’s like evil evil, like no turning back, the Trumps of the world. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Josie Totah: And then there’s like the villains that do problematic things sometimes, but we still defend them and stand up for them. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yup. 


Josie Totah: I’m just curious to know, aside from me, who are your favorite villains in the world? Because I feel like I’ve really been thinking about it lately and I’m like, people are fucked up and people have layers. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Josie Totah: And it’s like, at what point do we defend them. Or do we ride with the mob? 


[singing together] Alhamdulallah, check in with me. 


Yasmine Hamady: We do this so often. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Because we’re obsessed with music, which I love. But– 


Josie Totah: So who are your– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña:  –who are our villains?


Josie Totah: –guy’s favorite villains in culture? [laugh] Imagine Yasmine’s like, Ivanka Trump. 


Yasmine Hamady: Imagine I’m like you know what–


Josie Totah: I mean she’s kind of hot. But she’s awful


Yasmine Hamady: –now that you say that. Ivank– No. Okay. For villain era. Okay. So in pop culture, I feel like there’s always the villain like but you can’t help but ride? Like, I can’t help but think of like Azealia Banks. 


Josie Totah: Oh, same. 


Yasmine Hamady: Cause I can’t. You know what I mean? Like, she’s like, Gigi Hadid is a cabbage patch. She is not the doll. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: The doll. 


[spoken together] Bella Hadid is the doll. 


Yasmine Hamady: And I’m like, that is so disrespectful, but I can’t but why did I watch that 70 times? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Stop. 


Josie Totah: Well, my thing is like– 


Yasmine Hamady: And I’m like–


Josie Totah: –Why is she homophobic but also the biggest gay ally of all time. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like why is she a gay icon but also super homophobic? Like she doesn’t make sense. 


Yasmine Hamady: She doesn’t, half the shit she says, I’m like, Azealia what? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Not saying not to justify her at all, but like, we have to be cognizant of the fact, like a Black woman acts even remotely like you know, really– 


Yasmine Hamady: Out of the box– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –passionate or out of the box. She immediately is going to be villainized. Azealia is not that because she has– 


Yasmine Hamady: Azealia does say–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –blatently said, homophobic shit. So she’s not that. 


Josie Totah: I thought that way about Wendy Williams for so long. Like Wendy Williams was like– 


Yasmine Hamady: Shut the fuck up. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh my God. 


Josie Totah: She’s such, she was so fucked up. And also like, you kind of can’t talk shit about her any more because homegirl is going through it and I it’s like obvious. I see her– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Josie Totah: You see her literally on screen. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yes. 


Josie Totah: Her eyes are like glued open. It’s like can someone get her a pair of Celines, just to, like, cover it. Um. [laugh] No, no, I say that with compassion. But you guys remember who was she talking about where she– 


Yasmine Hamady: Yes. 


Josie Totah: –Was like. 


Yasmine Hamady: Whitney Houston when she was disrespectful– 


Josie Totah: Well okay that, that. 


Yasmine Hamady: –to Whitney.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You know how I feel.


Josie Totah: The Whitney Houston thing, was awful. She was extremely disrespectful and was tearing down another Black woman, which is we we can’t ever support that. But what where who was she talking about when she was like, dead I want all of them dead. Every single one of them dead and she said it. And then she was shocked by what she said. It was on live television and her jaw dropped out of her own words. Um. [laughter] I want all of them dead. Okay. So this is Wendy Williams speaking up for Britney Spears conservatorship. Which– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: That’s insane. 


Josie Totah: –That part was helpful because honestly, you know, Britney was really controlled by her, you know, evil dad and like her shady mom. And this is Wendy’s statement on it: 


[clip of Wendy Williams] Rehab that her father forced her into was a rehab where they knew the paparazzi was there every day. How dare you, Mr. Spears. You had me fooled. And you, too, Mrs. Spears. Death to all of them. 


[clip of crowd at Wendy Williams show] Oh. 


Yasmine Hamady: [laughter] Okay. So Wendy Williams–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Wait but–


Yasmine Hamady: –Is a villain, okay she’s a villain but– 


Josie Totah: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: –She’s absolutely a villain. 


Josie Totah: But– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m shook that she’s your answer. 


Josie Totah: But no, she’s one of them. What about you? 


Yasmine Hamady: So I think a lot in like film and TV and media, we see a lot of the villains, like, for example, I think of like Sharpay Evans in High School Musical. She was she was a bitch who just wanted to bop to the top.


Josie Totah: Oh my god I relate to her so much.


Yasmine Hamady: And she was the villain. But like, what are typical qualities of villains in film and culture that you’ve noticed? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm. I feel like narcissism, like greed. But I like my favorite, like, villains to watch are like the ones that are complex. 


Yasmine Hamady: Go on. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: That like, they’re humanized in a way, because, like, at the end of the day, like, life isn’t black and white. It’s nuanced, obviously wrong is wrong, right? 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like, but I think the most interesting characters to watch and I think Josie and I have even talked about this in regards to like portraying characters are those ones that like have a sense of humanity. You understand where they’re coming from, but they’re obviously awful. 


Yasmine Hamady: I feel like in film and and culture, we as specifically the villain and like what I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking of like the 2000s movie. Like you think of like the girl in high school who like, she just wants what she wants and she’s the villain. 


Josie Totah: She gives cunt. 


Yasmine Hamady: She’s giving cunt and she’s automatically the villain. And I feel like even in like today’s movies, you can’t help but love these villains because you see part at least for me, I see a little bit of myself in them because they are human. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: And like it’s, and I feel like especially in movies and TV, we make like the protagonist like this angelic person with no problems whatsoever. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: Has a hard family life, but, like, loves the boy, all that bullshit. But it’s like, I’m–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like– 


Yasmine Hamady: –Always rooting for the villain for some reason. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm. 


Yasmine Hamady: Because I’m like, you’re more complex. You have substance.


Josie Totah: The [indistinct] that I like. I kind of want to, like, beat the shit out of, like, not that I would physically abuse any person, but just the trope– 


Yasmine Hamady: But the trope. 


Josie Totah: –isn’t the white girl with blond hair who’s like, my dad has never been around because he’s always on work trips and my mom just doesn’t understand me. So all she does is leave alcohol and condoms at my door. 


Yasmine Hamady: Please, please, please.


Josie Totah: And when they’re out of town, I can just throw a party. It’s like that bitch I want to hurt. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: So I personally think um and correct me if you guys think I’m wrong, I think a lot of villains. Yes, they may have characteristics that aren’t the brightest, but get the short end of the stick because they’re not really a villain. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You know what I mean? Like–


Yasmine Hamady: Yes. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like I feel like Josie and I have talked about this where it’s just like there are women that are powerful and then they’re immediately deemed bad or outspoken and confident, and now they’re the bitch. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like one of my favorite shows of all time is Veep. And, yeah, she, like, does these things that on paper aren’t always the greatest. But I think, like, she’s this powerful woman that I love and I actually find more intriguing and complex to watch versus what we’re fed to always be perfect as the Ingénue. 


Josie Totah: Mmm. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Like, so how do you feel like we’ve been lied to when it comes to, like, villains? Because I feel like we like growing up. All the villains I saw, like whether they were like just powerful women and then they became the bitch or like whether they had, you know, queer coding. Like– 


Yasmine Hamady: I–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: That’s been a conversation. I literally was just at Disney and we were talking about that because now it’s spooky season. So how do you feel like there were lies fed to us through villains? 


Yasmine Hamady: I think of automatically um women in power, um for example, during the 2016 elections of Hillary Clinton. And I’m not saying I’m like all rally Hillary Clinton, obviously I voted for her, but like she was made a villain for being a woman in power. Meghan Markle, how the UK demolished that woman for being different and for speaking her truth. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Outspoken. Yeah.


Yasmine Hamady: And the thing is, she wasn’t even speaking out constantly. She was silent or silenced rather um from the people. And I feel like if you are a person who is, who has been oppressed and you voice your fucking concerns, you voice your opinions, you have passion, you have thought, you are automatically deemed a villain. 


Josie Totah: It’s interesting in that like the themes that we find throughout villains are like outspoken people who happen to be women and mostly are people of color. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mmm yeah. 


Josie Totah: That’s kind of a through line. 


Yasmine Hamady: It’s a constant. It’s constant.


Josie Totah: But what about the what about the fact that kind of being a villain is now aspirational? Like– 


[spoken together] Mmmmm. 


Josie Totah: I feel like we have these tendencies to just be like, I don’t give a fuck. More so me and Alycia, because I feel like Yasmine you do embrace giving a fuck sometimes, whereas like, I feel like– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Which is a good thing. 


Josie Totah: –I’m less so I’m more embracing of it than Alycia is, but like pretending like you don’t have feelings or like you don’t care. Like, I feel like being in your villain era is like, kind of just, like, not giving a shit about what people think. And I think that part about being a villain is honestly a good thing. And also speaking up, despite public [indistinct]. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I think in your villain era, like Alycia and I talked about this, it’s like specifically on TikTok I’ll see like a bunch of these girls being like in my villain era. And it’s like– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Girl, you have boundaries. 


Yasmine Hamady: Because you voiced your opinion on a guy and you said no to him. You’re in your villain era? No. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: You just you just spoke your fucking–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: –Truth. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You’re practicing– 


Yasmine Hamady: You’re speaking– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –Self-love. 


Yasmine Hamady: –self love and you’re like I’m in my villain era. 


Josie Totah: It’s like he tried to kiss me and I pulled away. [laughter]


Yasmine Hamady: In my villain era. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Or– 


Josie Totah: Like that’s consent.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: No deadass like sometimes the bar is in hell. 


Yasmine Hamady: Sometimes the bars– not sometimes the bar is very much in the depths of hell. And like– 


Josie Totah: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: I feel like everyone’s in their villain era because you want to do what you want to do, but doing what you want to do doesn’t make you a villain. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah, and you’re not a bad person if you’re like engaging– 


Josie Totah: Prioritizing you needs. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –in self preservation.


Josie Totah: Exactly. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Exactly. 


Josie Totah: And setting boundaries, which is such a good thing. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: It’s, it’s I was actually called a villain um once–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Por que? 


Yasmine Hamady: So in our family group chat with like the– 


Josie Totah: [laugh] 


Yasmine Hamady: –Whole family. 


Josie Totah: Sorry. 


Yasmine Hamady: Like the entire family. 


Josie Totah: It’s not funny. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Why are you–


Yasmine Hamady: It’s not– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –Laughing? 


Yasmine Hamady: No, it’s honestly funny. 


Josie Totah: Tea. 


Yasmine Hamady: So I have an uncle who um he’s uh as right as you can imagine. And he’s an immigrant and he’s an Arab and he’s a fully Brown man. And he is a gynecologist and he’s a veteran. And he is– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: So much going on there– 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. He’s– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I feel like it’s a jigsaw puzzle. 


Yasmine Hamady: No, it’s like there’s so much–


Josie Totah: Every word you say got worse and worse, starting with Arab. [laughter] 


Yasmine Hamady: No, constantly. And so and also like he’s going to hear this. I don’t really care. And on his Facebook, I’m recently blocked, but I, he used to comment these like for example once he talked about Trump and how like we need to build that wall because we don’t need any more immigrants here. We need no refugees. They’re bringing drugs. They’re smuggling, people from the Middle East are coming. And so my idiot ass um or my villain ass rather comments, dot, dot, dot, didn’t you come on a boat to Ellis Island? Question mark. Question mark. Like, weren’t you an immigrant? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Just a quick little reminder. 


Yasmine Hamady: And then I got and then I and then he was like, Yasmine didn’t your dad raise you better? Didn’t your dad treat you not to talk to elders like that? I got death threats from his followers. He wanted to run for Congress, and people in my family–


Josie Totah: What? 


Yasmine Hamady: –Were like Yasmine why are you– 


Josie Totah: Wait your uncle’s famous? 


Josie Totah: In the Conservative Party, yes yes. 


Josie Totah: Oh, when you said I got death threats from his followers I’m like your cousins were sending you–


Yasmine Hamady: Yes, he did. 


Josie Totah: –death threats?


Yasmine Hamady: No, not. Not even, my cousin. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Josie Totah. 


Yasmine Hamady: Oh, could you imagine? But a lot of my family members were like, Yasmine, why are you you’re starting things. Why can’t you just keep your mouth shut and just mind your own business? We all think he’s crazy. But why do you have to open your mouth? And like someone said, like you’re giving very much like the auntie of the family, like the anti. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mhm. 


Yasmine Hamady: And that felt like a villain and all, and I was like no all because we are blood and I’ll becau– doesn’t mean that I’m going to allow you to say things that I disa– that that are offensive and oppressive and that makes me the villain then so fucking be it. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: Do you know what I mean? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: It’s not always bad to be the villain also it kind of like I’m now like spiraling because I’m like, it’s insane to think that every single person in the world is somebody’s villain. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Whether you like it or not? And that’s hard for me to even believe because I’m like–. 


Yasmine Hamady: Do you think you’re–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I’m so–


Yasmine Hamady: –Someone’s villain? 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I don’t know. Like, I’m literally I’m being honest. Like, I’m now having an existential crisis because I’m like, I don’t think so. Like, I strive to always live in love. Like, I kind of go to, like, unhealthy extents to try to like, be kind to people. But I have to be that’s just the inevitable, the inevitability of life. 


Josie Totah: I just feel like you were ever made out to be the villain when you were– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Ooh. 


Josie Totah: –Younger. Because I feel like people like to villainize confident people, people that– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Josie Totah: –Speak up when something’s wrong. I mean, I remember just thinking back to I think it was first or second grade Alycia when you had that teacher who was being like racially insensitive and like you had to– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Oh my gosh, how do you remember that? 


Josie Totah: Because I’ve been around. [laugh] Alycia–


Yasmine Hamady: She’s been around since first or second grade. 


Josie Totah: –I was there.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: She’s been watching. 


Yasmine Hamady: You were in that class. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I know right. And it was–


Josie Totah: Like, you know you were made out to be a villain.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: It was fifth grade. Yeah. The still to this day, um you know. Thank you for that insight, because I was like, I actually don’t think I was made to be the villain because fun fact, I was bullied most of my life and–


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I don’t even articulate it that way. I just think, like I always say, adversity or obstacles. But no, I was like outrightly bullied very aggressively in my life. 


Yasmine Hamady: Mmm. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: But um you’re right, I think I was villainized and in a lot of spaces. But it wasn’t because of your typical like, oh, she’s being mean, she’s being confident. It’s because I was saying things that people didn’t want to talk about. So that made me the villain. And the story that Josie’s talking about was in fifth grade. I was like, voted the the president of my little um elementary school and Mr. Brown, um our science teacher. I’ll never forget because it was the only time in my entire life I’ve been ever called to the principal’s office. I felt like he was being racially insensitive to one of my classmates, Josh Jennings. So I started a petition and I had like– 


Yasmine Hamady: You’re so fucking cute Alycia. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: I had most of the grades sign it. 


Yasmine Hamady: Oh my god. [?]


Alycia Pascual-Peña: And because I felt like he was being racially insensitive and awful to this one Black boy in our entire class. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: So then I got called to the principal’s office for it and they tried to reprimand me. And my mom was she she was a superhero that day. She came in and she was like, did she disrespect anyone? Did she speak out of to anyone out of turn? And they were like, no, she’s just disrupting class. And my mom was like, with all due respect, that’s what I taught my daughter to do if she feels like she’s seeing someone– 


Yasmine Hamady: Hell yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: If she’s being if she’s seeing someone um be hurt. So I’m going to take her out. And she literally like took me to McDonald’s and we had chicken nuggets and then we like didn’t talk about it again. She also I also was one of the only Black women in this entire school being this was in Dallas, Texas. 


Yasmine Hamady: Mm hm. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: So yeah, I was villainized. 


Josie Totah: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: For that growing up because I spoke out a lot and I said things that I wasn’t supposed to and I was talking about racism when I was like nine years old um and about injustice. But thank God I grew up on a mother who was organizing sit ins and talking about um gun control and stuff–. 


Yasmine Hamady: Yeah. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –From a very early age. So she championed me in that way. 


Yasmine Hamady: So then that goes back to what Josie said was like how like both of you are kind of always in your villain era. Like you don’t really give a fuck. Josie, do you think you’re a villain in someone’s life? 


Josie Totah: I think that I am recen– I think that because of, I’ve talked about this a lot on this pod, that because as a child, I was such a little silly, goofy, little, like don’t follow the rules. Kind of like was always in trouble, was always turning heads in my family. I am convinced that I’m still not a great human being sometimes, which is something that I’m working in therapy, hashtag better help. And because of that, I don’t realize that actually I could be a lot more, I could set a lot more boundaries and I actually am kind of a people pleaser. I’ve learned in therapy, which I feel like is hard for me to believe. In my head like no one can believe that when I see that. So I find really I find myself to be ridiculous saying that. But I think– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: You don’t sound ridiculous. 


Josie Totah: –Recently I’ve been just working on getting into my villain era more in that I just really am working on setting boundaries and like not allowing people to take advantage of the space in my life and also to realize that like, I don’t need to be afraid of having boundaries because I think boundaries can be scary sometimes because it makes life harder. Like you don’t rush into things as quick, you don’t um you pump the brakes when things are getting exciting and it’s like actually having boundaries like pays off like so much more in the long run. Like, I don’t need to be scared. Like I don’t need to have the, the safety net of not putting my foot down. Like now I can finally just like be free in that. And I think if that’s my villain era then fuck yeah I’m in it. Because I just, I don’t really have the energy to prioritize anyone’s energy that isn’t healthy for me. Um. 


Yasmine Hamady: Mmm. 


Josie Totah: And I think that that is the most villainy that I’m I’m getting to. I mean, as a six year old, I like told like old women, like you should get a wax at like restaurants. Um. So like I was def a villain then, but like now I’m more a villain in like a–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: A tyrant. 


Josie Totah: –Cunty Barbie, like, protecting my soul type of way. 


Yasmine Hamady: Cunty Barbie protecting my soul type of way. Let’s get that on a fucking T-shirt. I think I think it’s so easy to to specifically women and queer individuals and POC to slap them with the label villain. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Absolutely. 


Yasmine Hamady: Right there. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Or angry. 


Yasmine Hamady: Or angry or aggressive. And it’s no babe because I’m gonna speak my truth and I can say whatever I want. I feel like when I when I’m constantly, I almost feel guilty sometimes when I’m in my like, I’m doing what I want to do. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: And like– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: That makes sense. 


Yasmine Hamady: –I feel guilty that I’m like, Oh, I’m in my villain era because I want to do, like– 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: –For example, like. I don’t know, like following my passion and doing what I wanted to do, like growing up, like creating art, being an actor, making a podcast, doing all these things, not following what like traditionally my family wanted was like a lawyer or a doctor and like, I felt like the villain following my passion. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm hmm. 


Yasmine Hamady: Obviously, no one’s made me feel that way except for, like, society, but also my own insecurities. But like, damn, what a fucking like honestly, I think being slapped with the label villain is very empowering. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Actually. I think. I think that there’s so much liberation in knowing like people ain’t going to like you regardless, might as well do– 


Yasmine Hamady: Whatever the fuck. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –What you want. You know what I mean like people will always have something to say no matter what you do. So might as well, like, be on a journey of finding your truest self and like being rooted in what you actually love. Um but yeah.


Yasmine Hamady: So that brings me to the idea of the empowerment of being the villain. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Mm hmm. 


Yasmine Hamady: Do you find that empowering? What do you both think? 


Josie Totah: I think that’s empowering. And I think when you realize that maybe the villains that we all looked at when we were younger aren’t innately bad people, but actually like have reasons for why they got there. And maybe we can learn from them in certain ways that like we should be speaking out for ourself we should be outspoken. And as long as we’re not hurting anyone, then so be it. Live, laugh, love in your villain era. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yeah. 


Yasmine Hamady: 100%. And I think without the villain, there isn’t a hero. And without a hero, there isn’t a villain and they’re one in the same. And so in order to be the hero of your own life, you have to be a villain sometimes. 


Josie Totah: Period. 


Yasmine Hamady: Period. [music break] 


Josie Totah: Come on in. Take your seats. Wipe your butts. You are in the Ickuation room. You guys know how it works. [tongue rolling sound] Yas and Alycia will be on either side of a controversial topic. They’ll debate for 30 seconds each and I will decide which side wins. So this topic is sexy versus funny Halloween costumes. Sexy goes first. [gavel sound]


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Okay. Sexy costumes are great. Like if you are someone like myself that you may be shyer on other days. 


Yasmine Hamady: Uh huh. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: This is your day to feel empowered to live in your divine true self. If you want to show all the skin on your body, this is for you mama, papa, person. And I just love it. I love Halloween. I love that you can dress up. 


Yasmine Hamady: Mm hmm. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: And be a little maybe more spicier than you think that you’re allowed– 


Yasmine Hamady: Uh huh. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: –To be on other days. Honestly you can dress however you like on any other day, but I personally love to go all out and live in my personal divine femininity on Halloween, and I do that with my friends and we’re all hot girls together. And it’s a really great time and we take flicks and it’s very empowering. So I’m planning to do the same thing.


Josie Totah: That was sounded beautiful and also happened to be the least sexiest way to advocate for sexy Halloween costumes.


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Thank you so much. 


Josie Totah: Funny costumes. You’re next. [gavel sound]


Yasmine Hamady: [clears throat] Look me in the eye. Come here. Look me in the eye. You want to make history? When you walk into a party, when you go trick or treating, you want to be the funniest fucking person. You want to be the person that–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Trick or treating? 


Yasmine Hamady: Trick or treating! It’s Halloween get with the fucking program. Everyone wants to be funny. I was Guy Fieri. I got laid that night. I was Tobias Fünke and got laid that night. You, when I was slutty or sexy on any other Halloween, no one even paid attention to me. Why? Because everyone does it. Everyone does that! Be funny make history. 


Josie Totah: I love both of your guys’s explanations. I really found it um. How do I say poetic? However, if there’s one thing I believe every other day of the entire year is the day to be the biggest slut as possible. For those that know me, I as a freshman in college as an adult young woman wore a sports bra and shorts to um school every single day and was actually kicked out of a gym for public indecency at a gym, which is like isn’t that the place to be naked, whatever. [laugh] And so for that reason, I’m going to say that funny costumes win on Halloween. I think you all can zip up your fucking short skirts and drag down your cleavage tops to just be funny for one night. And by the way, I meant the opposite of what I just said. And yes, I’m okay. And Halloween is the–


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Tea. 


Josie Totah: –One day of the year where you can just look like a bit of a doink. So funny Halloween costumes. [gavel sound] You win. That’s adjourned. Have a good day. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Salud! [music break]


Josie Totah: Well, you guys, that was our show. I hope you all are taking this time to figure out who you are to yourself. Are you the hero of your own story or are you your own hero’s villain which honey, we’ll need a joint for that. But until next time, please, everyone, have a safe Halloween. Check your apples for razorblades. Check your guy for condoms, and check your mom when she says something problematic at the dinner table. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: Yay. [cheers] Happy Halloween. Stay safe. Have fun. 


Yasmine Hamady: Wooooo. [makes ghost sound] 


Josie Totah: Stay spooky bitches. [tongue roll] Dare We Say is a Crooked Media production. 


Yasmine Hamady: Caroline Reston is our showrunner, producer and mommy. And Ari Schwartz is our producer and show daddy. Fiona Pestana is our associate producer and Sandy Girard is the almighty executive producer. 


Josie Totah: It’s hosted and produced by me, Josie Totah. 


Yasmine Hamady: And me Yasmine Hamady. 


Alycia Pascual-Peña: And me, Alycia Pascual-Peña. Our engineer and editor is Jordan Cantor. And Brian Vasquez is our theme music composer. Our video producers are Matt DeGroot, Narineh Melkonian, and Delon Villanueva and Mia Kellman. 


Josie Totah: Lastly, thank you to Jordan Silver, Gabriela Leverette, Jesse McLean, Caroline Heywood, Shaina Hortsmann, Deisi Cruz, Danielle Jensen and Ewa Okulate for marketing the show and making us look so damn good.