REALationship with Self | Crooked Media
Pod Save America Live NYC & Boston guest hosts just announced! Get Tickets Pod Save America Live NYC & Boston guest hosts just announced! Get Tickets
July 01, 2022
REALationship with Self

In This Episode

Life is life-ing and it’s time for a check in!. The ladies of Imani State of Mind chat on what happens when your relationship with yourself requires more than just practicing self-care.




Dr. Imani Walker: Welcome to Imani State of Mind, a podcast about mental health, culture, politics and whatever else I think you need to know. I’m Dr. Imani Walker, and you may know me from Married to Medicine, Los Angeles or my YouTube series, Mother and Daughter. I’m a working psychiatrist in the city of Los Angeles, but most importantly, I’m a mother, a daughter and a Black woman living in America. I grew up in Harlem, and I remember my block was the kind of block that was its own little community. We all made sure everyone on the block was good. And that’s the same approach I have with my patients and listeners. I want to make sure everyone has a place and space to help with their mental health. So I decided to become a psychiatrist a long time ago. But one of the reasons why I wanted to become a psychiatrist is just because I knew that just looking around at my family and looking around to some of my friends who I also consider family, that we go through issues and a lot of us as Black folks are really not open to discussing our issues when we really need to be, especially because in this day and age we’ve lived through, let’s just see, in the past three years, coronavirus, we’ve lived through George Floyd, we lived through number 40- 45, we lived through a whole bunch of stuff. And we definitely need to have the space and openness to be able to discuss our specific issues. So the times that we’ve been living in are crazy, and many of you do not know where to start. When you want to talk about your mental health. Let’s figure it out together here on Imani State of Mind. You’ll find out really quickly that I’m not your average psychiatrist and this is not going to be your typical mental health show. We’re going to laugh and we’re going to learn how to better protect your own mental state. And because everything in life is so much more fun with a partner, I want to introduce you to my co-host and copilot on the podcast, Megan Thomas. What’s up, Meg? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Hey, girl. Hey, what you doing? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Hey, girl. Just, you know, trying to get it together. Just trying to get my mind right. I know a lot of our listeners are trying to get they mind right, and I’m not I’m not a stranger to that. So what’s up with, you? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Nothing girl, you know, just out here had a new baby. So I’m out here, you know, when at night I spend my time practicing my ninja routine, but also [laughter] pumping breast milk. This is how I spend my time so you know.


Dr. Imani Walker: What you be you you practicing your ninja routine? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes girl because you got to be ready at all times. There’s a lot of stuff going on in this world, so I got to be ready with these chop chops. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No that’s true, because there are obviously people who are like really interested in like being all up in our uteruses and um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know I need to do some vaginal ninja, um get me some, gonna be some cervix, cervix, um ninja stars because these politicians out here is wilin. Shouts out to Roe v Wade being overturned, which is total bullshit. But we’ll we’ll talk–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –About that a little bit later. Uh. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. So so that being said, yes, these times are crazy. You feel it? I feel it. Everybody who’s listening feels that. Everybody who’s not listening feels it. And honestly, me and Meg came together because we have common goals. Like we want to make sure that we all have a space, including Black folks, especially Black women, Black men, that we have a place to discuss our issues, discuss our mental issues that are unique to us and also for everybody else who just wants to have a space to be able to vent and also be able to learn and laugh and giggle a little bit and just, you know, generally just deal with my um my goofy personality. [laughing]


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ayy. Yes, ma’am. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes, ma’am. I’m excited about this. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Nice. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Cause we there’s so much we need to cover and talk about, you know, and kiki about, but serious stuff also. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, exactly. Because that’s I would say if I had to have if I had to have a license plate. I mean, I have had a vanity plate in the past, but if I had to have another one, it definitely would it would probably say something like Goofy Kiki. [laughter] 


Meg Scoop Thomas:  I love that. That’s cute, actually. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Goofy Kiki.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Look that up because it’s probably not taken. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, probably. We’ll see. Probably. In California? I I honestly I don’t think it would be. But I’m I’m a check I’m a check and see. So that being said, without any further ado, let’s get to the show. To kick this off. We want to hear from you. What’s on your minds? For those of you who are already familiar with this show, you know, this segment is asked Dr. Imani anything. For those of you who are new to the crew, here’s how it works. Listeners will submit their questions around mental health to You can also text or leave us a voicemail at 818-252-9462. And Meg and I will give you professional advice. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And not so professional advice. [laughing] So today’s letter is from Keisha. Here’s what she had to say. Dear Dr. Imani, I recently turned 40 and I feel I am having a midlife crisis. You know the kind in the movies where I want to eat, love and pray. I am fresh off my final breakup from my ten year on and off again boyfriend and quit my job of 15 years with no real plan. My anxiety and all my thoughts of where I should be by 40 are keeping me up at night. I should be married. I should be a mom. I should own a home. I should be further in my career. I’ve recently decided the healthy thing to do would be to embrace where I’m at at 40, but have no clue how? I figured my life will fall into place if I find peace of mind. I know I want this next chapter in my life to be my me season. For so long I did what others expected of me on the job and in my relationships. And I think I deserve to finally do what I want, but think I’m going to drive myself crazy on my journey to self-discovery. How can I take care of myself mentally without feeling like a failure and losing my mind in the process? Mmm Keisha. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. Keisha okay, so first of all, Keisha, thank you for your letter. And Kiesha, I need you– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –to have a seat like [indistinct] not, not like have a seat in a bad way, but I really need for you to, like, just sit down. Like, just just– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –and breathe. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right! Sit down and breathe. Girl. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ooh, stop. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, exactly. So here’s what I would say to you. Um. Okay, so, Meg, do you remember, like, back in the day when everybody was like, Oh, my God, the secret. Oh, my God, the secret, da da da. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And so I remember when I finally, like, I was expecting this whole big to do, like when I finally saw the movie and I was like, okay, so let me get this straight. You wanted a bike. I remember it was a little boy, and he was like, yeah, I wanted a bike. And so I visualize this bike. And so that meant that like I started thinking about the bike and then I started like, I like I asked for money and, and then my parents was like, no. So I went, got a job. And then I saved the money and I got a bike and I was like, well, yeah. [laughing] I was like, if that–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –what’s the Secret is about then like I’m like, I understand it’s supposed to be self visualization and all of that. But I was like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It, this just sounds like you had a goal and you attained your goal like you focused on your– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Goal. And that’s, you know, and so I say that because this kind of reminds me of people who talk about uh vision boards now. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’ve tried to make a vision board once. I’m not really a vision board person. I just think that I’m just one of those people. And I’m not saying this like I’m just one of these people. So whatever. Like I’m better than you. What I’m saying, I just think I’m one of those people who when I have a goal, like, that’s all I really focus on. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And Keisha, I think for you what would be helpful is something like a vision board because I know a lot of people find it to be very helpful. So first of all, you’re not a failure. And I know that people have– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Told you this. I know you’ve heard this. You’re not a failure in any way, shape or form. What you are, however, is a hu–, is is uh you’re a human. You’re a human being. And you listen, I was in the shower this morning thinking of like some of the dumb things I’ve done over the course of my life. And then I was like, you know what the funny part is? That’s really stupid. And I don’t care because I’m about to record this podcast and have fun so like, whatever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: There you go. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, it just so happens that your regrets flow through your mind. That’s fine. But when you’re, like, focusing on them, that’s a different thing. So what I would do is I would li– I would really make a vision board. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You can actually, like, you know, go down to the craft store, like go down to Michael’s or whatever and, you know, get you like, you know, a a poster board and make you a vision board and and do all that. They actually have apps now for vision boards. I made like an electronic vision board. Um.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh for real?


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, it was kind of fresh. Yeah. So I did–


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s dope. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah I did that. Um.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Because who gets magazines nowadays to cut stuff out? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I mean I do. Because I’m an old soul. [laughter] I mean, I do. I love I still I still like reading magazines, but I’m like, why is the font so small? I’m like, I can’t see cause I’m old now. Not really. I’m 46, but I’m like my–


Meg Scoop Thomas: About to say, right? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I know. But I’m like, I can’t see anyway. Anyway, sorry, sorry Keisha. My, here’s what I’m saying. What I’m saying is you need to make a vision board, or you should make a vision board so you can focus and put on there, what do you want? What do you want? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Because here’s the thing. Okay, maybe, I don’t know what part of the country you live in. Maybe getting a house isn’t really like the most rational or smart decision for you to make right now. I’m not sure if you’ve, you know, been around the past three years, but the real estate market is out of control. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And it’s probably I mean, if you can’t afford a house, like like and let me get this straight. There’s one thing to buy a house it’s another thing to actually deal with furniture, which is wild expensive, um you got to furnish the house, you got to pay for the bills. You got to get landscaping. You if you got a pool, you got to pay for that. Like, if you–


Meg Scoop Thomas: So much. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Don’t, right? If you don’t need a house, then don’t worry about getting a house. Worry about. Not the fact or not worry, but be thankful for the fact that you have a place to stay and focus on making that really your sanctuary and the place where you can feel most comfortable and just not be not feel burdened. I also want to say that, you know what, you just had a you had you fresh off a breakup. And let me tell you something. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um. Once the sadness passes, girl, you better be out here like it’s Freaknik 2022 cause you fresh off a breakup. Like, you like feel yourself. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right! Live your life. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, live your life. I’m not saying go and act up the way that I did at Freaknik. All I’m saying is just like. Just. Just have just just have fun and get to know yourself and the all of these all of this, like what we call it in psychiatry is called perseveration, all of these perseverative thoughts that are keeping you up at night. It sounds a bit like some anxiety. I really can’t sit here and say, you know, whether you have actual anxiety, like diagnosable anxiety, but it just sounds like you’re you’re in a state of worry. And I read this book recently that was talking about how, especially with someone such as myself who has really bad anxiety. Anxiety is it’s a habit. It’s like a habit forming ritual. So it basically describes how when like, let’s say I’m in a situation, I don’t have enough information, I start thinking about all of the what ifs and the majority of those what ifs are not going to happen. And it–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –It causes me to go into like basically the the very short version is that it causes me to go into a state of panic because I’m thinking about, oh, my God, like, well, I have like a pain on my side. Could this be cancer? Do I have some sort of a cancer? Do I have a cyst? What’s going on? When it’s probably gas. I just need to like fart it out. [laughter] Like, that’s like, that’s really like, that’s really like, like what my anxiety can do. And it sounds like you’re doing a lot of worrying. So what I would really, um what I would really suggest that you do, Keisha, is to sit down like me and Megan said, take a breath. And when you when you find the time, when you get to when you get to the place where you’re like, you know what I’m ready to think about the future and not in a panicked, like, frenzied way. Make a vision board. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And take as much time as you need because it’s not really about like, Oh, I need to complete this vision board so I can see what I need to do. It’s more about you putting your ideas on the vision board so that you can start to visualize yourself having–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Those items or or getting to those goals in your life so that you can make the steps required for you to be able to get there. So.


Meg Scoop Thomas: And that’s that’s important because I think some of this anxiety seems to be that you didn’t do it by 40, but–


Dr. Imani Walker: Right-.


Meg Scoop Thomas: –You got to leave room. So like, you know, you want to be a mom, you can still be a mom, but you might need to put a little room, a gap in there for what motherhood looks like. It might look a little different. It might not be with a married partner. Maybe you have to adopt. Maybe you have to do surrogacy. Maybe you have, you know, leave room– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –For for growth or a a difference in what you really wanted. But you’ll still achieve that, right? Own a home, like you said. Maybe you just need to put extra time in there. Maybe it’s a townhouse instead. Maybe you start off like rent to own. I don’t know, like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know. Just revise. Leave room for revision. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Because you don’t know what life is gonna throw at you. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. Leave room for growth and something you said, Megan just like, gave me, like, a little light bulb above my head. But yeah, it’s called Andscape. So I was reading this article recently on Andscape which used to be um The Undefeated um from ESPN, and it was basically discussing Black women and how we have been kind of societally trained, unfortunately, to believe that we are like we’re little girls and then we–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –You know, we grow up and we get jobs and then like as soon as we like really start like doing for ourselves, we need to like, oh my God, I got to get married. It’s like being single– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Is this purgatory that exists between, like, being, like, young and being married. And I was never someone who was raised or even thought that, like, oh, my God, I need to be married. I’ve been married and I’m not I’m not averse to being married again. But it was never something that I felt like I needed to have. But I understand that for a lot of women, that is something that we are kind of trained to–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –To believe that we need to have in order to be happy. And marriage is work like marriage is not just getting going, like having the wedding. The wedding is fine. That’s a party. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But after that, you just like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Oh, okay, so–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Hooo. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So what’s up? Like? So what’s all like, who got the dishes tonight? So it it’s it’s work. And I guess what I’m saying is likewise when it comes to having. Like if you want a child, you don’t necessarily have to be married. You don’t necessarily have to like, you know, be in a relationship. You can have a child and still raise that child and still end up being fulfilled and end up having a relationship with with your child that’s fulfilling. You could like like Megan said, you can adopt, there’s surrogacy, there’s all kinds of stuff. But I think, Keisha, that what you may need to do is basically you need to figure out what you want and then understand that the steps to get there are not necessarily going to be the steps that you may have been taught or grew up on. And that’s really kind of like when you get to break free and be an adult and just be like, you know what? I’m not really trying to hear anybody tell me how to live my life like I’m here to be happy. And if you don’t like it, and if you’re not here for me, then you know where to go. So.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. And you know what else she got to do is just, girl, just breathe. Because, you know, there there’s some self-care that needs to happen here because, you know, in your in your letter, you said, how can I take care of myself mentally without feeling like a failure and losing my mind in the process? Girl, I’ll go get you a nice cold drink. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. Open up your phone with that uh that app to get your your vision board. [laughter] Take some take to take some time out for you just to and get back to what you used to like to do before you were with this man, before you had all these problems, you know? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Ten years ago. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: What did you like to do? Go start there. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Start there. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And also, please don’t fall into the the fallacy of, oh, my God, I wasted ten years of my life. You didn’t waste. No, you didn’t waste any time like you learned what you– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: No waste. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –needed to learn. And now you’re here and now you can move forward and be fruitful and maybe multiply. We’ll see. [laughter] Okay, so thank you Keisha so much for submitting your question. Um. I really hope you embrace your fabulous forties. I’m closer to 50 now than I was last year and I’m I still feel like I’m a 12 year old inside so. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You look good, girl. You’re looking great. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Thank you. You know, I be. I try. I mean, I do have some you know, I do have some um some help with some like injectable therapy if we– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s self care girl. That’s self care. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –if we want to call it that. But but but thank you. But thank you, Keisha. Now, Keisha’s question really stuck out for me because this month we want to focus on REALationships, okay? And that’s R-E-A-L. We can’t survive without relationships. And it’s time to take a moment to evaluate the most important relationship you will ever have. And that’s the relationship with yourself. So that’s what Meg and I are going to talk about today. What does it mean to take care of yourself? But before we do, let’s take a quick break and we’ll be right back. 




Dr. Imani Walker: Welcome back. I’m excited to be getting into this topic of creating and maintaining a relationship with ourselves. I don’t know about you, Meg, but it seems like ever since the pandemic, the term self-care has become the popular thing to say and do. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But what does it really mean to practice self-care? Like what happens when a relationship with yourself requires more than a trip to the spa? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mmm I thought a spa, spa trip could fix anything? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I know right? I mean, yes and no. Because when you there, you be like, oh, my God. Like, this is so great. Like, I feel awesome. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And then you leave and you’re like, yay. And then you get back in the car and you get like a phone call and you be like, okay, you be like, whatever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Like back. Back to the grind.


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. Back to reality, right? Yeah. I mean, what is– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: What is it, what is, what does self-care look like for you? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Self-care for me looks like. So I’ll put it to you like this. There’s there’s like I wouldn’t say selfish. Like, there’s. There’s me, like, investing in myself. So I– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Would kind of put, like, spa-ing on that list, like. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Or me like, you know what I like a couple days ago, I went and got, like, my fillers and my Botox done. You know, I do it like once a year, once every 18 months. Like, that’s kind of like myself investing. Like, I don’t mean it’s kind of self-care, but it’s kind of like this is, this is this is like this is upkeep. This is what, like, makes me, you know, not look like a scrounge running around town. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: But but wait, why do you want to do that? Because I think they’re. Yeah, I think that’s important. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, true. I guess I want to do that because, like, it just makes me feel good. Which, which, which is what I was going to say. Like, with self care. Like there are things that I do that maybe other people might not consider self care, but I consider self care like I’m almost finished with um, with uh rehabilitating? Is that the right word? Um. With redoing my backyard. So. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like I did all this, like, what do they call it? Like hard skaping, like not really plants. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But like because we’re in a drought out here in L.A. and like we have like water restrictions. So I really wanted, and I’m at home the majority of the time and I mostly work from home. So I really wanted for my house to be like an escape. And and even though– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –That’s something that I’m not like, I’m not out there like with rocks and, you know, buying plants and putting all the stuff together when it’s done it to me, like the fact that I took on this project is self care because it really does make me feel like, like, like, like if I feel like I can take a deep breath and I just feel like, oh my God. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Thank you. Like, I just like it’s so like I’m in love with the side of my house right now. Like, I wish that–


Meg Scoop Thomas: See that I, I have a garden same feeling. And I’m just like, it makes me feel so good when I harvest something. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my God. I know. Like, I have a vegetable box and I have to move it because it’s it’s in the shade. And once I get, like, my first tomato. Oh, my God, you have no idea. I’m going to be [indistinct].


Meg Scoop Thomas: Girl. You would have thought that I was over here, like green thumbing it. Okay, now, mind you, I’ve had a lot of help with my garden. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: But I just got a squash the other day. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh my god don’t you feel so excited! 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Girl I was out here rejoicing. Girl I took all type of pictures with it like, squash, and I, like, cooked it up four different ways. [laughter] You know what [indistinct]. I don’t even eat squash that often, but I was so happy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I know that’s how I was with my eggplant last year. I was like, Oh, my God. I was like, Look at my look at my baby. Look at it, now I’m a kill it. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’m a eat it. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. [laughter]


Meg Scoop Thomas: But that’s self-care. Like, it’s so relaxing for me and I didn’t even realize that. So relaxing for me to get up, to go turn my hose on, to spray all– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yes! 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –My plant babies, to go harvest stuff and be like, Ooh, what am I going to make with my little harvest today? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh, my god. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Like you know that’s, it makes me feel good. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No, go. No, I feel you. I was just at Trader Joe’s like maybe like an hour, maybe hour and a half ago. And I was about to buy some, like, organic basil, and I was like, okay, do I really want to spend like, it was like $3.19 or something. I was like, do I want to spend $3.19? I was like, bitch you got basil in the house [starts screaming] in your garden! So I was [laughing] So I was like, I was so excited. But, but, yeah, so, so to me, self-care is, I mean, pretty much like anything that makes you feel good, like it, just like it just it touches you, like, deep in your soul. Like, you know what makes me really happy. This is going to sound like, like, really, like, weird and nerdy, but I’m really late to the Reddit wagon. Like, I kind of thought Reddit was like, I was like, Reddit is for, like, white supremacists or something like back in the day. Like. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes that’s what I thought. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like I ain’t going on know damn reddit, these crazy ass people. But I’m in, I’m in the I’m looking for an electric vehicle um and so I love like when, when I have a project like I do these really deep dives and I know like everything about like the three electric vehicles that I’m thinking of buying, like even down to like when I buy one, even if the one that I want isn’t the right color. Like, I’m a take it and like, get it dipped, or I’m a get like a wrap and then I’m a get the little like emblem and I’m going to like, you know, make it like frosted like I like that to me makes me feel like there’s no stone left unturned. And so for somebody– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Like me who has like, you know, OCD issues like that really makes me feel like, okay, you know what like, I feel good. Like, this is this makes me feel good. So, I mean, so, I mean, yeah, like, like there’s there’s self-care and there’s and but what’s also most important to self-care, right, and yeah, more I would say more important than self-care is knowing like your relationship with yourself, your self relationship. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Because if you– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Don’t know you’re going to be running around doing stuff that other people are telling you like, oh, this is, this is self-care. But that’s their self-care, right? Like who else–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Wants to go on Reddit and and research cars and think that it’s self-care? Nobody. I do because I’m a nerd. But like, you know, like that may not be, you know, somebody else’s version of self-care. We’re just talking about Keisha. And, you know, it sounds like Keisha um in our listener letter needs to, like, just be at home and like take stock– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Take stock of what is there. And like, you know, listen, there is there is no greater joy than going to the Container Store or going to Target and getting like organizational things. And then you like put stuff together and you put your stuff away. And you like, oh my God, look what I did. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: If yeah yes, and it clears your mind. It organizes your mind somehow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Organizing things. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know, and it’s it’s it’s good that you bring that back up because I do feel like the thing that Keisha said in her letter is more I feel like she needs more of a self relationship because– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –There’s been so many times in my life where I went to go get my nails done, get my lashes done like all that stuff to me is self-care. Like it makes me feel good on the inside. But the truth is the relationship part will not get taken care of no matter how much self-care I do. And one of the things that I found was very important, which some– I think Keisha needs to do, is set boundaries. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: With people. I’ve never been good with that. I’ve always just been, tried to be agreeable and say, you know, well, you know, if you like it cool. Like I could do that. When in actuality, if I sit down and think about it, I don’t want that. Whatever you’re offering me. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right, right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And that that breeds resentment. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It does. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And then now you’re angry, now you’re depressed. All this other stuff as a result of you not having a good relationship with yourself. That’s very important because I feel like that that bleeds into every relationship you have, whether it’s a spouse, a child, you know, friends, whatever is it starts with the relationship you have with yourself. 


Dr. Imani Walker: No, that’s true. That’s very true. I unlike you, I love a boundary. I love boundaries. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Which is why I love you, you just you know– 


Dr. Imani Walker: No I love I love– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love that energy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I love boundaries. I’m like, no. Like, no, I’m not doing that. Like, I– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See. I’m learning that in therapy. I’m learning it in therapy. And it has been the most freeing, most amazing thing. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Aww. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Like, now I can say I love myself because of that boundary when I tell people no and I don’t feel bad about it anymore because I used to feel bad. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Really? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Absolutely. I think it’s part of my, like, Asian upbringing, too. You know, Asian people are like very non-confrontational. 


Dr. Imani Walker: See? Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: So I’m like–


Dr. Imani Walker: Can I say something?


Meg Scoop Thomas: –ooh Black side, come out come out more. Cause my Black I need to just be like, I’m not doing that. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. Can I say something? [laughter] So like. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes please. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So your so your mom is Korean. My mom’s side is Chinese. My my grandmother was Chinese. And when we went to China. Right. Like, I didn’t really know what to expect. So we went to go like visit all of our like not all of them, but like a a very large number of our Chinese relatives over in China, in Shenzen. And so we went over there and I wasn’t I I didn’t really know what to expect. And so, you know, I kind of expected, like, oh, they might be, you know, like they not going to be as loud and like crazy as we are. But they right ah, listen, an hour after meeting them, I was like, oh, okay so we related. Like they like they were definitely like very they acted just like we did. And so I thought it was really funny that like, because, because I was like, I don’t know, like, I don’t want to, I know that my personality can be kind of big and I know that, you know, I’m I try to watch how, how I present myself to other people. But when we went and met up with our family, I was like, Oh, okay, so y’all just okay, y’all like boundaries and then kind of have no boundaries at the same time. So like, I love that too. So. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I guess all I’m saying is yes, I think for some Asians, yes. I don’t think for all Asians and I was very surprised by how just like I mean, they they they were they were wild. They were out of control. But but that being said, I think that um, you know, like you said, boundaries are really important. And even though I have I’ve been to therapy, I was going to say I’ve dabbled in therapy. I still definitely want to do more therapy so that I can like I love myself. But I also have a lot of, like, regrets. And I know that Jay-Z said that, you know, in order to get through life, you have to learn how to live with regrets. And I think–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –That’s very true. But I also think that there are things that like will just like pop into my head. Like, oooh remember that one time that like you, you know, you said that and it was really awkward and you should have apologized and you didn’t. And and look at you now and you was wrong. And I think I need to like you know, I think I need to definitely get back to me with regards to some of those things. But um but I will say that with therapy, I’ve definitely been able to learn how to have a much better self relationship with myself and a really good relationship– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah because–. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –With myself. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s why I love therapy. And I always tell people, you know, if you’re dealing with some stuff, I mean, it’s true. Everybody needs to have a therapist, have somebody to talk to that’s unbiased. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know, and to me, it’s been life changing because I I was dealing with postpartum depression after my first child. And then when I went to go see somebody, I realized what it was and it really was like I didn’t feel supported in a lot of areas. So instead of me being like, it’s my hormonal imbalance, mind you, I don’t know, I’m not a doctor, okay? So I can’t be walking around saying I have a hormonal imbalance. It was really because I you know, once I talked to somebody, I realized what my issues were and it was like, Oh, you don’t have no boundaries, girl. That’s why you so unhappy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Even if you are doctor, like I’m a doctor, I’ll be walking around depressed, like, just clueless. Like, [sighing] what’s wrong with me? [sigh] Like like you depressed like you depressed like you need to go work that out. Like you need to probably, like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Be back on medication shouts out to Prozac. Like, you probably need to be on something, but and it’s and that’s really the thing. It’s, it’s hard it’s hard to like in the midst of every first of all, let’s talk about let’s let’s forget about the pandemic. Before the pandemic, we were just rippin and running and and doing so much stuff. And now we’re kind of– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Like people talk about like, Oh, well, the world is opening back up. I’m like, is it? I mean, kind of like, is cause it it gets, I feel like, like, okay, now we got to wear masks again. Okay, now this is getting shut down. Okay? Now you got to, like get a coronavirus test to, like, enter the country or like it’s it–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: We’re we’re going to constantly be in this state of flux. And I think that what is what is important is for us to really figure out like what it is that we want. And that’s very difficult when there’s so many things like being thrown at us daily. Um. But I think it’s really important that we are able to like I will I will freely admit at the beginning of the year I was like, okay, I don’t believe in resolutions, but I was like, okay, bitch, this year you’re going to meditate, okay? You gonna meditate, you gonna work this out. [laughter] And and honestly, there–


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love that resolution. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –There are some days like bitch you gonna meditate, like cause because in my mind my like my voice in my head is Shanaynay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, bitch like, bitch okay, like bitch we gonna meditate. Okay. Bitch we need to go to the store, okay, don’t forget. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I love it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, so anyway, my point is, is that I was like, okay, Imani, we gonna meditate and I don’t meditate the majority of the time. But when I do, even if it’s like 5 minutes, listen, but– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –That 5 minutes pass, I’m like, bitch, I could do anything, I could do anything. I feel so much better. Like, what we gonna do today? Da da da da da. Now I’m also somebody who wakes up ridiculously early in the morning like five something. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And I have all this energy and I’m getting mad at myself because then by like 8:00, I’d be like, sleep. But but I say all this to say that when I’m able to meditate, even if it’s like legit for 5 minutes and I use a app, shout outs to headspace, it’s like it’s it literally just, it just takes away, like the just the flotsam and just like the dust and like, the ash of the da–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –of life. And you’re just like, you know what I don’t like yeah, maybe I was concerned about whatever regret it was of the day, but now after I meditate, I’m like, I don’t even care. I’m like I don’t even care no more. That shit was stupid like anyway. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like let’s just keep it moving. Like, whatever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s my. That’s my shower time. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I need that. Like, my fiancee always gets on my head. I’m one of those people. It takes me. I take, like, 15 minute showers, and then I got to put my different creams on my face. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I have different lotions. I have different hair– it takes me a good like 45 minutes to wind down at night like– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: But that, that’s my like meditation time. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Because in there when I’m in the shower, I pray, I think about my day. I, you know, Megan, you know, you could have did this different or tomorrow you can do this like I need that. That is my self-care. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That is. And so don’t, look, don’t, don’t come at me talking about something, you take too long, my friends have said that over the years. Megan you take so long at night to take a shower. Don’t. I need it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Especially now that I’m a mother of two with a brand new baby. Somebody watch these screaming kids while I take my time for me okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah na na no. Yeah. No. That that is. Yeah. Wait till they get. Oh you probably deal with this with your son now the um I have a picture of my son, with his little hands under the door. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: [laugh] Yes. Like leave me alone. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah [?].


Meg Scoop Thomas: I’m taking a dump. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You don’t want to come in here. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah I’m like lea– Oh, no, they be like I gotta tell you something. I’m like no. Now, you know what, you know what now now you gonna tell this. You gonna tell this funky smell all up in your face. So– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So so what I would say to everybody out there listening is as far as okay, how, how do you guys how do we all create the relationship that we want with ourselves? I think the first thing is that you have to stop. You gotta stop and you have to breathe. And you need to, like, really be honest with yourself. Like, what do you–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Want? Not what your mother wants for you, not what– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Your pastor, let’s say, wants for you, not what your teacher told you you should do. What do you want for yourself? What do you want? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like and it can be as crazy as possible because listen, people thought my parents, when I went to go see Silence of the Lambs when I was like 14, 15, and I was like, yo, I want to I want to do what Clarice Starling does. And my parents were like, you sound crazy as hell. And I was like, all right, then whatever. I didn’t which is not to say it didn’t dissuade me, but like, look at me now. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like I that’s what I do. I do, I do forensic psychiatry. And I also see, like, you know, I also do like general adult psychiatry. But that’s like that was really like what I wanted to do. And that’s where I’m at now, as crazy as it sounds like just write it down like I’m telling you write it down, look at it, think about it, decide what you want to do. But then also think about like what do what can I like legitimately get rid of in my life? Like what is–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Not necessary? Like what’s not necessary? I’ll tell you what is necessary, getting abortions. But I’m not even going to okay, like not even going to get into all that because these people want to overturn Roe v Wade. But whatever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: All I’m saying is, if you really want to create the best relationship with yourself and be able to be fulfilled and be happy, you have to really be honest with yourself and you really need to be able to just know what what do you want away from everyone else telling you what you should do? And sometimes that’ll take time. Sometimes that’ll take hours of meditation, sometimes that’ll take a lot of walks. But at the end of the day, I think it will definitely benefit you to know what you want so you can get the best relationship that you can have with yourself. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hmm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So that’s what that’s what. That’s what I think. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You girl. Are you talking to me? I’m over here. Like, let me take these notes, because um [laughter] I’m still trying to cause, you know, I deal with a lot of that still. I think to me, it’s a lifelong process. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: To you know? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: This relationship with yourself, especially with the discovery in the last few years of therapy that like, you know, Megan stop putting, what is it that you want instead of being so agreeable with what everybody else is doing? Like, what is it that you actually want? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And that’s a hard when you never thought about that for yourself, that’s hard to be like, wait, what do I want? Who am I? You know? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I remember one time I was in an acting class and the, the, the coach, the teacher was just like, Megan who are you? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Don’t you know I looked at that lady and started crying because I was like, I don’t know. [laughter] 


Dr. Imani Walker: Oh no!


Meg Scoop Thomas: I don’t know what I want. Oh, my gosh. Who am I? What do I want? [laugh] Nobody ever asked me that. And I never took the time to think about that. And that really was just like. That took a lot of time for me, going to the park and just sitting there with a journal. Like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I don’t even like journaling. I’m not a journaling person, but I needed that because I didn’t have that answer. I didn’t know– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, no me neither. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –who I was, what I liked, what, what was important to me and that how do I expect to have a great relationship with somebody else, whether it’s a spouse, you know, partner, children, whoever. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: It. I don’t even know what I like. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Exactly. Yeah. Let me ask you a question. Your mother is Korean. Was she was she like a tiger mom, would you would you consider her a tiger mom or she was more like nurturing? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Nurturing. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: But she had like, you know, moments of like, no, you need to do piano. No, you have to–


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Like, why didn’t you get an A in this? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Mm hmm. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: You know, she had her moments, but for the most part, she was nurturing. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Now I’m a tiger mom. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. My mom was a tiger mom. Um. Still is a tiger mom. To to to a general degree. Um.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But um. But I say that because even though like I have, I’ve always had really good confidence and like really good self esteem, I still had to separate, like what? What do I want versus what does my mother want me to do? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know, and– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And it’s funny you brought up journaling because I’m always like, I don’t even like journaling, journaling is stupid or whatever. And then I’ll I’ll have a journalism, a journalism. I have a journal app, not a journalism app, I have a journal app. And I just be like, okay. So today and then I was thinking and it’d be I mean just paragraphs like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Long, long, long. And it’s funny how I’m like, I in the first person, be like I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to go to therapy, I don’t want to journal, and then I’ll be there and I’ll be like, You know what this is a really good breakthrough and thank you so– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Much and this was really helpful. So that being said, everybody like also don’t be afraid to step out of your comfort zone. You may say that you don’t want to go to therapy. It really can be very helpful. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Nine times out of ten, I would say even ten times out of ten. It’s helpful. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And don’t stop just because you start with a therapist and you don’t like them. I had to go through four. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah switch. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Over over the course of a year before I found the one that I was like, oh, I love this woman. So– 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. Switch.


Meg Scoop Thomas: –stay with it.


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Stay with it. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. It’s your therapy, like you paying for it, like switch. If you don’t like the person like go find somebody else. So Meg thank you so much, for real, for being so honest because this conversation was great. Okay, it’s time to switch gears. It’s time for my favorite segment, pop culture diagnosis. [music break] We’re back. This is pop culture diagnosis, a segment where we take a person or a character from a TV show or movie and assess their mental state or, as we say in the medical field, figure out what the hell is going on with them. Meg, can you give listeners a quick synopsis of the extremely popular show Barry. And who in particular you wanted to diagnose today? 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay, girl, I’m a just tell you, you told me about this show, Barry, on HBO. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s the best show ever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: And I was just like, okay–


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s the best show ever. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: But I was just like, who is this? Who is this white man on this show? I ain’t about to watch this. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Bill Hader.


Meg Scoop Thomas: I watched one episode. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Bill Hader.


Meg Scoop Thomas: Girl. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Girl. I love me some Bill Hader. Barry is the, oh, my God. Barry’s the best show. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I love this show, sorry go ahead. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: I watched one episodes, and now I’m, like, all the way in almost through the second season. I love. Thank you for putting me on to this show. But let’s talk and diagnose Barry Berkman, who is the lead character of the show played by Bill Hader. So basically Barry is you know, he’s a former Marine. He is now a hitman. His like uncle godfather type of dude is kind of like his– 


Dr. Imani Walker: His play uncle. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –hit man pimp. Who–


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. Play Uncle is like his hit man pimp. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Fuches. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Who like, tells him where he needs to go, what job is next, whatever. So Barry ends up going to California, you know, on a job, but then finds out that he loves acting, is in an acting class. And it’s like the stuff that unfolds is so unfortunate for him at times, but like, you see the juxtaposition of his life because here he is on one hand, he’s like a cold hearted killer. He is great at what he does. He’s a great hit man. And then on the other hand, he’s like, I just want to be an actor. Like, I just, you know, I want to be a generous actor. I want to, you know, he’s got this really soft side and he really doesn’t want to kill people. But like just dealing with both of that. So let’s talk about him. What would you diagnosed Barry with? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Okay. So Barry, first of all, Barry is a psychopath. He’s a psychopath. Um. And I say that because– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Really? He’s he’s so he’s so nice? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Well, okay. That’s what I was about to say. So if you ever if anybody listening out there and Megan you too, if you want a quick and dirty way to determine whether somebody is a psychopath or a sociopath, and–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm hm. 


Dr. Imani Walker: We have a tendency in society to use them interchangeably, but there is a difference. So a sociopath would be someone like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Someone who burns ants with a magnifying glass? 


Dr. Imani Walker: They could actually sociopaths and psychopaths can both do that like as kids. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And I do remember I don’t remember the name of the kid on my block in Texas, but I remember seeing somebody do that and I was like, nope, I am not playing with you like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: See? 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Something’s wrong with you. I was like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Absolutely not. I was like, No, you something. Mm mm. There’s something evil inside of you. Um. But psychopaths are really nice. Like, they they’re charming. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And they’re charming because they want to get close to you. Like, they want to get close to you so that they can basically be like, how can I ruin your life? Right. So I would, so okay. So, you know, people talk about Ted Bundy, oh Ted Bundy, he was so attractive. Oh, he was so nice. I don’t I, I mean, I’ve watched and read a lot of stuff on Ted Bundy. I don’t consider him to be attractive. He wasn’t attractive to me. [laugh] But back then, I guess in the seventies, he was, you know, like women was into him. But he was he would al– he had kind of like this uh, not just a murder kit in his car, but he would have this kit in in his car. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So he would like hav– he had like a like a cast that he could like he could put like take off and pop back on. And he would have like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Crutches, like he had this whole, like, like props, like this prop kit so that he could get people to, like, empathize with him and feel sorry for him. And he was really nice. And he and he would, you know, he would always go after, like, you know, these, like, young, attractive women. And so Ted Bundy is somebody who is a psychopath like Barry because you oh, he’s so nice, he’s so sweet and whatever. Now, let’s take somebody like uh Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer. No one ever I don’t recall anybody ever saying, oh, you know, Jeffrey, he was so nice. Like, I really liked how he, you know, like was able to um, you know um, he was how he was able to flay the skin off that person’s body. No. Like, everyone was like. Yeah. Jeffrey was odd. Like, he was kind of weird. Like, he wasn’t very talkative. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like, something was, you know, like I heard him and I heard and I looked at him and I saw shr– I heard shrieking violins. Like, it just wasn’t like he he just was. He was a horror movie, like, just walking around. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So sociopaths are more so people that they’re they’re very, like, flat faced. Let’s say they’re they’re not charming at all. They don’t really care. They’re just like, I’m here to kill. And that’s, you know, sucks to be you. So. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Mm okay. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Barry, the fun, the fun and interesting thing about Barry, I was thinking about this this morning is that everybody on the show is like basically everyone on that show is a psychopath. Barry’s a psychopath. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh, my gosh that’s true. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Right. His girlfriend um–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Is a psychopath. Sally is. I mean, she’s a psychopath. Um. Fuches, his play uncle who gets him, like, all the all the jobs to, like, um you know, to kill people is a psychopath. Um. You’ll find– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: NoHo Hank. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You’ll, NoHo Hank is. He, first of all, I love NoHo Hank. He is my everything. I love him– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –So much. He’s so sweet. But there’s one particular scene, I think, in the second season where, NoHo Hank, he was like, okay. I was like he was like, Barry, you try to play me and just understand– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –That like I can have you killed. And then he was like, okay, bye. And that was it. He was like, But it was really kind of scary. I was like, eew, no, Hank you. Okay, I’ll see you out here. NoHo Hank’s a psychopath. Um. Who else is a psychopath on there? Um. Even um Gene Cousineau, Barry’s acting coach, is, to– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Some degree, kind of like psychopathic-ish. Like, you’ll learn later that he like in his past, he was really like, not a very nice person. Um. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Aww. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, yeah. So the one thing I love about Barry is that he’s he’s trying to, I guess, come to grips with, I am a psychopathic killer, I’m a murderer. But also, like, I have a soft side, like I have emotions. And I want to be able to get them out. And it’s it’s um it’s really interesting to watch because Barry is really like it is the whole series at every episode. It’s like Barry ends up getting off like scot free. Like it’s just, it’s like–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –This comedy of errors as to why Barry does not get in trouble. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: And he should. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Uh. Yeah, that’s what I’m noticing. Yeah, that’s what I’m noticing. Like, wait, how do you how do you get that? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah, no, he should like, he totally should. But Barry just gets off scot free a– you know, obviously, you know, Barry’s luck is going to run out at some point. I’m not going to I’m not going to um because I’ve seen I’ve seen all the episodes. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Don’t tell me, don’t tell me ahhh. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I’ve seen all the episodes. But it is it is it is like the best show. One of the interesting things also about Barry that I love is the fact that um, you know, Bill Hader on SNL used to do all of those um impressions. Right? And so, of course, you know, me doing the deep digging, I got on Reddit because I’m part of like the Barry Forum on Reddit cause I’m a huge nerd. [laughter] And so I was looking around in there and I found this like this like some bio on Bill Hader and apparently like Bill Hader was like a um he was like a P.A. He was like a production assistant on like Jurassic Park and like all these kind of like big movies. And–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –He never well according to what he said, he never has done. He never did impressions growing up. Like he did an impression– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Oh wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –For when he um auditioned uh for SNL. So he so it’s kind of it’s kind of like as the series goes on with, like, Barry ends up getting like more luck then than he should. Not just in terms of like getting off scot free, but also in terms of like just with his acting. And it really reminded me in a way of Bill Hader, because he was just like he was like, yeah, was just like a P.A. And then I think he was like just working somewhere and then just like, got on SNL and blew up. It was kind of like that. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: That’s crazy. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know it’s crazy. It’s crazy. But in any case, Barry is, I believe, Bill Hader’s first foray into um, I guess, uh having a show and Bill Hader– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –And Alec Berg, the co-creator. You guys are killing it. I love the show. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: It’s amazing. It definitely it definitely made me have more empathy for um psychopaths. Not really. Um. But it definitely made me have empathy for Barry. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Wait, I have to ask you this before we get off this topic. Have you ever diagnosed a psychopath? Like, have somebody come to see you and you’re like, you’re a psychopath. 


Dr. Imani Walker: You know what? Yes. Oh, my God. Yes. I just remembered this, was a long time ago. So when I was a resident and I think I was a third year resident, my rotation was consultation and liaison psychiatry, which basically like short the shortened version is is it’s where medicine, like internal medicine, let’s say, and like psychiatry come together. Psychiatry is medicine. I don’t want anybody to think that it’s not. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like I had to go to medical school and all that and I’m a doctor, but it’s really where like, oh, this person’s electrolytes are off. Why is the person being delirious? Um. This person took a medication that isn’t psychiatrically related and they’re acting kind of bonkers. Like, why is that? So it’s kind of like that. So we had to we had to see these patients who would come in and we would we oh we would have to do these evaluations sometimes for people who like um for like it was something like this person wanted to get like a transplant. This person was supposed to have a transplant. And part of part of uh getting a getting transplant surgery uh with certain transplant surgeries is that you have to have a psychiatric evaluation. And so I was having this conversation with this woman who came in, and she’s telling me it went so far left that she was poisoning her husband. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Huh? 


Dr. Imani Walker: I was like, what? Like. It was like so I had to so when that happens. Right. And I told her I was like, listen, I was like. And I let her finish. Like, I did my whole evaluation. I was like, now you and I both know that, you know I have to report you to the authorities. Like I have to. Like I have to. So I had to like it took like a couple hours. Because when that happens, I mean, I’m not I’m not saying I love paperwork, but I was like, oh, my God, I have to call like adult protective services. I got to call the police, like this. Like I got to, you know. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: I got to like tell the police that her husband needs to be [?], like, because she’s trying to kill him. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Wait, what did she say when you were like, I have to–


Dr. Imani Walker: She was like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: –Tell somebody?


Dr. Imani Walker: She was like well. So I was like. So I was like, um. So she was in a room. And so you learn as a psychiatrist like you, when you interview a patient, especially somebody you do not know. Um. And I was in a county hospital, you need to position yourself in a way that if you need to run out the door, you can. So I would. But I was more– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: What? 


Dr. Imani Walker: So I was more so thinking like, okay, I got to keep this chick in here, like, because I had to go tell my supervisor, right? I was like. Yo. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yeah. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Like this chick is trying to kill her husband. She poisoning him with bleach. I think it was bleach. It was wh– She was like, oh, yeah, he’s, she was like, yeah, it’s been about two months. And I was like, what? So, yeah. So I have diagnosed a psychopath. [laughing]


Meg Scoop Thomas: And then would you like write on there, psychopath? 


Dr. Imani Walker: Um I I Yeah, pretty much, yeah. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Wow. 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yeah. I was like, okay. I mean, now I wrote up my I wrote up my, you know, evaluation, and I’m like, it was above my head. I had to give it to my my supervisor. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: But I was like, here you go bye. So, yeah, but I had to like, I was like, don’t. I was like, don’t leave. Okay. Like, I was like I was like, oh, I can’t lock her in here but I was like, oh, my God, don’t leave. So I was like, paging my supervisor. Like, come here. Like, come here right now. Because I didn’t want to, like, walk away and have her like, run off. So um so, yeah. So I have. Yes. Thank you for reminding me. I totally forgot. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Real life Barry Berkman huh?


Dr. Imani Walker: Real life Barry. She was really nice, though. She I mean, she was hella nice, but I was like, girl, what? I was like, you did what? I was like, no, girl, uh uh. No, you not, you not finna kill your husband. And be like– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Right. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Yeah, so whatever. So what’s up with this organ? Like girl? No, we past we past you getting a new kidney, okay? Like we past we the way passed down. 


Meg Scoop Thomas: No ma’am. 


Dr. Imani Walker: So, no, ma’am. So that being said, I have diagnosed a psychopath before and it was it was kind of fun. And Barry is an awesome show and I love it so much. And shouts– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Out to Bill Hader– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yes. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –And shouts out to Barry, who you know– 


Meg Scoop Thomas: Yup. 


Dr. Imani Walker: –Is a really sweet guy but just has problems killing people. [laughing] So that’s it for pop culture diagnosis. We’re going to have another fun character to analyze next week. If you have suggestions for fictional characters out there, you want me to diagnose? Hit me up on Twitter at @doctor_imani or email the show at Thank you for listening to Imani State of Mind. Thank you to Meg for co-hosting. We’ll–


Meg Scoop Thomas: Hey! 


Dr. Imani Walker: Yay! We’ll be back for an all new episode next week. So let’s keep the conversation going. Follow the show on Instagram at @ImaniStateofMind. And again, email us at