In This Episode
Kash Patel announces that UFC fighters will help train FBI agents, the Washington Post experiments with subscription prices set by algorithms using readers’ personal data, and after years helping run one of morning TV’s biggest shows, a CBS News producer Shawna Thomas steps away with a simple message: “I’m tired”. DeRay interviews former Washington State Representative for the 30th Legislative District Jesse Johnson.
News
‘I’m tired y’all’: CBS producer Shawna Thomas leaves network to prioritize rest
Kash Patel Confirms UFC Fighters Will Train FBI Agents: “Historic Opportunity”
The Washington Post Is Using Reader Data to Set Subscription Prices. How Does That Work?
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles and Sharhonda, back to talk about the news with regard to race, justice, and equity. And then I sat down with former educator and elected official in the state of Washington, Jesse Johnson, to talk about youth leadership opportunity and what it means to build policy that actually responds to people’s lives. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at @podsavethepeople. And it was recently Myles’ birthday. Happy birthday, Myles. Woop woop woop woop. Here we go.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: I’m in New Orleans and I completely forgot that St. Patrick’s Day was even a holiday to celebrate, but there are a lot of people out here with green beads and just living it up in the middle of the street. I’m DeRay, at @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: Ooh, New Orleans on St. Patrick’s Day. I could already just feel the hangover. My name is Myles E. Johnson at @SunPulpit on Instagram and SunPulpit.co is my substack.
Sharhonda Bossier: And this is Sharhonda Bossier, @BassierSha on Instagram, and BossierS on Spill. As a lover of New Orleans, I can tell you that those St. Patrick’s Day parades are a sight to behold, so stay safe and have fun. It is Women’s History Month, as we are halfway through March, but as we have always talked about, we are also 365 Black here at Pod Save the People. And so I wanna talk about you know what’s happening in democratic politics and namely around a Senate race that is happening in Illinois. We have two Black women who are running to become members of the U.S. Senate. Only five Black women have ever served in the U S Senate. And we’ve talked a lot on this podcast about how you know, the Democrats are thinking about courting Black voters, how the Democrats have supported or not Black candidates, particularly Black women candidates. And so, you know, there’s a lot of conversation around this race, a lot conversation around whether having two Black women in the race will, quote unquote, “split the Black vote.” And I wanted to bring it here because whoever makes it, assuming that one of them does, will make history. But also there’s so much that could happen you know between now and then, and there’s so much that the party could do. And you know also seeing a lot of conversation about the role of money in electoral politics, particularly as it relates to AIPAC, which is a lobby that we’ve talked a lot about on this podcast also, and watching more candidates, even candidates that we consider moderate like Gavin Newsom try to walk away from some of that money. But some of those donors and some of that lobby finding other ways to get money into races that they care about and want to shape and influence. So I feel like a lot of places we could enter into this conversation, but wanna know what y’all are hearing, what y’all are seeing, and especially really interested in how we are thinking about this conversation around Black voters as a singular or monolithic voting block.
Myles E. Johnson: I feel like I’d never have seen such like good splits politically. Like I used to always feel like in order to vote for a Democratic like candidate, it was just you had to get in line. And I’m kind of excited by the fact that there is a variety of different candidates coming up. I’m also thinking about how it was announced that one of the candidates wasn’t taking away AIPAC. I was talking to like a couple of like far left organizers and they were saying how like, oh, our next thing is making people literate beyond AIPAC. Now that people are like literate of what AIPAC is, now they must be literate that you don’t need the term AIPAC in order to know that Israel’s controlling your elections or how money can go. So I think that this might be like an interesting example of how more people are gonna become more literate of how money can flow. In ways that are not necessarily traceable, so that’s my interest point right now.
DeRay Mckesson: It is interesting to me, and picking up where Myles left off, shout out to the activists because a decade ago, five years ago, not even a decade, three years ago AIPAC was an insider only term that like even the sort of activists who didn’t do international politics didn’t know anything about. And all of a sudden it’s like a mainstream term that people are talking about and wrestling with which is really powerful and shows that the activist left can move the middle in a way that matters. So I think that’s big. I didn’t know much about this race until you brought it up, Sharhonda. So I’m interested to see like how it how it goes. I’m interested to see and what it means that there will be this competition and how much the candidates feel like they have to distance themselves from AIPAC because there is this idea that like, some people might, they might care in the moment and they might not care later. So I am interested to see if this case is like a bellwether for that. In this situation, I didn’t know that Jesse Jackson Jr. was running for office. I don’t know if you knew that, but I didn’t know that Jesse Jackson Jr was running for office, so that was interesting to me. And I just had to say it, because I’m passing it by, is that Bobby Rush is endorsing Jesse Jackson, but Bobby Rush has throat cancer. So they’re using AI to restore Bobby Rush’s voice in the ads for Jesse Jackson Junior. And I thought that was fascinating, too. I was like, oh, okay, like, this is, so it’s like a little bit of the ad is in Bobby Rush’s current voice, and then the rest of it is in his AI restored voice. So it’s a lot going on in Illinois congressional races right now.
Myles E. Johnson: So he’s actively battling it?
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, his voice has been damaged by throat cancer. He just doesn’t sound the same, but the headline is Jesse Jackson Jr. turns to AI to amplify Rush endorsement.
Myles E. Johnson: Also, he had throat cancer and it affected his voice, but now he does no longer have it. I was like, are you going to try to do politics with a Ouija board?
DeRay Mckesson: Rush said, his cancer damaged my vocal cords and didn’t take away my voice. So he says that, and then there’s the AI restored version that says, I want to tell you why I believe in Jesse Jackson Jr. and then it continues. And I was like, Oh, that that that’s interesting.
Myles E. Johnson: I actually like that, specifically when you think about how many people in general do deal with things like cancer, do deal with things like disability, and are going to you know like. The healthcare system is just gonna continue to crumble. More people are going to be sick earlier. So I do think that in its own odd way, this is something to get used to, and obviously the right has gotten used to it with R.F.K. Junior and his cartoonish voice, you know, being normalized.
Sharhonda Bossier: Is the key differentiator here that he’s still alive to opt in and they’re like not using an AI generated voice for someone who didn’t have any agency in the decision, because that’s, I think the part that I’m sitting with around AI generated voices. But I also want to talk about, you all will remember when Kamala was selected to run as Biden’s running mate, the campaign in California called Keep the Seat. Which was an attempt to make sure that a Black woman got to replace Harris because there would then be no Black women in the Senate. I wanna talk a little bit about that because that also seems to be one of the big things driving how people are thinking about voting in Illinois is to return a Black women to the Senate from a state. Is that resonant enough? I think we’ve been sort of challenging this idea of representation being enough, but it does seem to be a core part of how people are thinking about how they’re gonna cast their vote, especially because both candidates, both Black women candidates seem to be pretty in line with, for the most part, most of the Democratic Party’s platform and policies.
Myles E. Johnson: I think, and this is kind of like I’m thinking about Texas, right, and what we just saw happen with Jasmine, I really do think the Democratic Party in full is just kind of exhausting this representational politics. And it kind of makes me sad because I think there’s so many smart, sharp, obviously deeply experienced Black women who are trying to be politicians. But also, it’s just getting flattened into like this kind of, like, I don’t know, I hate to keep on saying the same words each podcast, but like this neoliberal nonsense of like representation And it’s sad to me, like I really feel like because Democrats cannot do anything more radical, not willing to do anything more radical, are totally gonna trying to keep their positions congealed. It’s just like they’re using Black women, that’s what it feels like to me. It feels like they’re using Black women to spark up the base because they think that Obama juice or that Michelle Obama juice of just representation is gonna get it through. And I feel like we just keep on seeing with Vice President Harris and Jasmine Crockett that the electorate seems to have moved on or there’s another electorate that is like getting activated who can totally demolish that kind of representational plan.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I just looked up the polling for the Senate race and it is literally 30-30, like they are neck-and-neck. The way the polling looks is that like, it’s like three weeks Krishnamoorthi is up and then the next week Stratton’s up and then so it doesn’t look like the AIPAC stuff is hurting her at all. Um. And in some ways, it probably does seem that the identity politics part of it is helping her at least stay afloat a little bit. But I’ll be interested to see, I didn’t even know the third person, Kelly, I don’t know anything about that person.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Who’s running. But.
Sharhonda Bossier: It seems like not a factor. But it is a factor because it’s 13% of the vote is going to that. That’s why they still are 30-30.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: So um shout out to this race. I didn’t know that only four Black women have ever served in the Senate, which obviously makes sense given Kamala and then the woman who replaced her whose name I can’t remember and then we have Angela.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think we should watch this race. I think it’ll be interesting to see how it shakes out. I’m going to be really interested in the demographic data of the exit polls, like who, who voted, who showed up and why. I think, we’ve been trying to parse more and more what the evolving Black voting block looks like. And I’m just curious to know who comes out in a, in a race like this.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Sharhonda Bossier: Speaking of Black people and Black representation, I want to talk a little bit about ongoing consolidation in the media space, particularly as it is starting to impact and gobble up Black-created intellectual property. So you may have seen that Tyler Perry has sold back his stake in BET to Paramount. We also saw a story this week about Quincy Jones’s estate, right, selling his catalog to, I guess, essentially like a venture capitalist firm, right? We’ve seen a lot of artists do this, but I don’t think any one of the stature and cultural impact like a Quincy Jones, right. And so I’m wondering how you all are thinking about what this means for Black culture and Black representation in media. I think a lot about how much of my understanding of Blackness was shaped by Quincy Jones’s work. Right? Everything from like the Sanford and Sons theme song to The Wiz to Fresh Prince of Bel-Air to Vibe. You know, I remember buying Q’s juke joint and being like, oh, that’s who Barry White is, you know, right now. And I think a lot about, you know, some of the more contemporary portrayals of Black people in culture and media. You know, we’ve talked about like, if you’re a Black actor, the likelihood that you were working on a project that’s either a Tyler Perry project or a 50 Cent project is pretty high! So what does it mean to have this happen in this moment when we’re seeing what feels like a shift away from investing in Black representation and Black media outlets? And I’m especially concerned about what it means for the kinds of portrayals of Blackness we will now see on our screens.
DeRay Mckesson: I am surprised at how much the Ellison family owns in a way that has just not become a problem in the public conversation. Granted, they own the things that probably would make it a problem. But to just read them off, it’s Paramount Pictures, the CBS Network, Paramount Plus, Pluto TV, Nickelodeon, Comedy Central, MTV, Showtime, VH1, BET. They have a 15% stake in TikTok. They own Skydance Media. Which produced things like Top Gun, Paramount Television, and Avatar Studios. And they are in the process, as we talked about in the last episode, of buying Warner Brothers, which would give them HBO, HBO Max, and CNN. And it is sort of like, you know, the BET thing aside, it’s like, what does it mean where there’s literally like a family that will control the major news platforms outside of MSNBC that will be the, the filmmaking people, like that just feels sort of like a wild thing and and what it means that they will be shaping the way that people interact with entertainment for a while. And this is like why we made the antitrust laws and, you know, here’s what happens when the government isn’t interested in real regulation. But I don’t know, I’m sort of surprised that this one family is not more of a conversation that runs that I’m in and the BET thing just sort of becomes a part of it. So I don’t know how much I am upset with Tyler Perry about it. As much as I’m like, wow, the beast, this one family is really owning so much.
Myles E. Johnson: Well, I’m upset with Tyler Perry about it. Nigga, you had one job. Negro, you had one job!
Sharhonda Bossier: One job.
Myles E. Johnson: No, it doesn’t really matter. We were talking like offline about FD Singifier’s like really good YouTube documentary and he goes on to kind of speak about how part of what makes Tyler Perry such a evil dark force is the fact that like even when he owns everything or when he controls so much, there’s still nothing tangible that you can see change when it comes to Black representations when it comes to working with other Black people, or even what he’s using his studio for, you know, it’s still kind of funneling the money with the same billionaires and millionaires. I think that, and I feel like I said this a few times on this podcast, and still kind of like cleaning up, like my total ideas around it, but I do think American culture is dead. And I think by proxy, Black American culture is dead and like, I remember the last time I think DeRay or I can’t really remember, but like I think somebody had a push of being like, well, Black American culture is not celebrity culture, but Black American culture’s power is because it was plugged into a Western empire like America. So it’s like, yes, you can do something and we are a generative creative people. But the fact that it was plugged into America and that kind of mass media machine had a lot to do with that power. And I think that so many of these business decisions, when I look at them, feel like like the more statistic, analytical business examples of like kind of what I’m just seeing like culturally which is like oh we’re living in the aftermath of that culture. Last thing I’ll say is like you know like the idea that like abstraction and capitalism where like you’ll have a cherry and then capitalism makes it so you can have like a lollipop shaped like a cherry that tastes like a cherry, but not the real cherry, like that is what capitalism does. I think that that is so much of what like this AI moment is about, is that like we’ve abstracted so like so far from the roots of these different cultures that now we’re kind of eating our own slop, for lack of better words, and I think that that is also proof that we’re kind of in this death aftermath of like Black American culture and American culture in whole.
DeRay Mckesson: When you say American culture is dead, are you saying like this is the precursor to the rebirth or like what happens post death?
Myles E. Johnson: I think a lot of American cultures or American artists are gonna have to be absorbed into like a more global like economy. So like I think that like Bad Bunny, even though, well, Bad Bunny’s a good example. He’s from Puerto Rico, he’s American. So when you think about Afrobeats, when you think about Tyla, like you’re gonna have to like just go global and use whatever culture you come from, any culture that you are representing is gonna have to like be global, where like sometimes being from America was enough.
DeRay Mckesson: Do you think that Black American culture is still like is punching through the ethos?
Myles E. Johnson: No, I think that Obama did a really good number. I think because so much of American culture and Black American culture has been intertwined with electoral politics, not how it was in the ’60s and ’70s. I always say, I’m like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King and Angela Davis, all these people who Democrats and politicians used were not like politicians. They were like other, there were people who lived outside of that political framework, but because we got absorbed into it, I’m even thinking about Diddy’s vote or die, that, like, the death of this kind of American neoliberal superpower is also the death of a Black American superpower, because we kind of closed that gap. But, like you see everything from Sexyy Red to, like a Jasmine Crockett, and I’m not comparing them, but you kind of can see this, like big flattening of what being a Black American is, and also this kind of focused disdain of it, right? Like, even when you hear people talk about having Black fatigue, or on the internet, or on TikTok, or you hear people kind of just dismissing Black political sentiment now, a lot of that’s coming from how powerful we were and just being exhausted by it and not necessarily seeing a difference.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I do think that some of, for Black Americans, at least from my perspective, some of what I am missing from what I see as quote unquote “Black culture” are our regionalisms, like our differences. I think that like living in a social media age has flattened it a little bit. Like you know, growing up, there were slang words I used that like my cousin in San Francisco didn’t, right? I mean, that’s a silly example, but I do think that like there there was like beauty and diversity within Blackness in the US that I do you think has gotten flattened a little bit to some of the point you’re making here, Myles, right. And I’m hopeful that this is an opportunity for us to reimagine what’s possible, for us to lean more into some of those things that make us different across place, across time, across generation. And like hopefully this is an opportunity for us to sort of extract ourselves from these really extractive and exploitive systems as we imagine what’s next.
DeRay Mckesson: Wait, Sharhonda, before we move on, do you think that Black American culture is done? Like, what’s your read on, like, the state of American culture or Black America? Like, do think it’s going to be reborn or do you think, like Myles said, that it has been subsumed too much into the electoral space and it’s and that has created an untenable sort of reality?
Sharhonda Bossier: I think that we have all started behaving as if we are one Black culture and not many Black cultures, right? And I think, that that has allowed for us to be flattened into these like very narrow archetypes of what like I’ll just speak for myself, like as a Black woman, right, I’m expected to be how I’m expected to show up, how I am expected to speak, how am I expected to like engage with, even just like the younger people in my family, right. And like you hear our accents fading and dying, you hear, and like that, that to me is a sign of like us sort of being assimilated into broader culture. And then when you have a social media ecosystem that extracts from us the things that we do best and uniquely and then calls it internet slang, right? Or, you know, all the kids are doing the same dances, all of that, right? The cycle that you need to stay edgy, which I think is what is innate in Blackness. It just moves so much faster. You know what I mean? Because like the moment a Black kid says something and puts it on the internet, it’s showing up in like my office Slack channel. And I’m like, now wait a minute, I’m 42. I’m not supposed to know that word yet, you know?
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: And so I do think that there are ways that in this moment of constantly putting ourselves online and in constantly seeking to be part of a Black experience, we have missed the richness and diversity of Blackness. And I miss that. Like I want to go to New Orleans and hear a new song for the first time. That doesn’t happen anymore. You know, I want to be in Detroit and be like, I ain’t never heard a baseline like that for the first time again. And that doesn’t happen anymore. And I’m, I’m hopeful that this moment forces us all to like be in real community again, which I hope gives us opportunities for new kinds of cultural innovation, which, I pray is a rebirth of Black American cultural supremacy.
Myles E. Johnson: I think you saying the A-word assimilation obviously made me think of the A word now, the algorithm. And it’s like the algorithm formalizes and finalizes what was already happening during assimilation. So this flattening and this death of a Black American culture began in the ’70s. It began probably once Angela Davis put her face on a t-shirt, and then the ’80s and the ’90s, and the 2000s. And I think that like now we’re just seeing that kind of like formal finalization of it, and that flattening is a part of it. But we are always kind of like feeding our culture. Like when you have to feed your culture to white supremacy, it’s going to create certain images.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: That are gonna flatten you, and then if everybody’s doing that, then you’re gonna end up with like a kind of a vast nothing of a culture. You know?
Sharhonda Bossier: Well, to connect our like first two topics and then to head into you, Myles, and your your news is like, you know, we thought having Black executives at these big media companies would change portrayals of Blackness on TV, in film, in media, right? And then you see Black executives make it to the top of these companies and reach a point where it seems almost like they’re forced to choose between solidarity with the culture or themselves, whatever that looks like, right? That could be like, I got to bow out of this because this place is going to kill me. Or that is, I’m trying to secure the bag, so I’m finna go over here and work with Piers Morgan a la Rashida Jones, right.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Myles E. Johnson: So yeah, I wanted to talk about the CBS producer, Shawna Thomas, and how she’d announced that she left work. I’m really interested about this because again, I think that just as a person inside of the non-binary queer Black community, you kind of collage who you’re getting your references for and Black women specifically. Careerist black women are so interesting to me because they’re dealing with this collapse in a way that I think is a the survivalist instincts are kind of kicking in, and I think in ways that are just totally, radically different than that kind of girl boss era that we were in even, like, 10 years ago. And her coming on and saying that she’s retiring and saying this is not sad, she’s quoted in her statement saying, you know, I’m about to find a beach, y’all.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. [laugh]
Myles E. Johnson: And I think that was [laughing] and she says this is not that. But I think doing that publicly is so interesting. We have so many examples of that, even before we’re recording this on Sunday. So Sunday is usually the day that I sit with Miss Bohemian Soul on YouTube, which is this Black woman elder who talks about tiny homes and alternative um retirements. And she also talks really candidly about a stress induced stroke that she had that really forced her to um sit the hell down. And I think that it’s been really interesting seeing Black women’s reactions to this moment. And this is just me. This is tin foil hat, tin foil hat, tin foil hat. I also don’t think no Black women leaves CBS without a little push from a fascist. I also think that once you get inside of these specifically media creating systems, and again, because I’ve been looking at these Epstein files and just looking at things that are being validated by the government. The government does not play with visual representation in the media. So it’s not that it is just coincidental that every Black gay couple that you see is an interracial one, or every Black, gay man you see is an interracially couple is not just coincidential, it is how it’s constructed. It’s on purpose. And I think that once you kind of get inside of these systems, you learn that there is actually a cap of that. Like you kind see very quickly that the Black is beautiful movement, which is that I think whether you know it or not is kind of what a lot of Black people kind of hold dear to their heart as representational politics and the power of it. I think that they they have to recognize that that was a fluke and that wasn’t supposed to happen. And there are forces making it so that’s not supposed to happened. And if you align with those forces, you become Tyler Perry. And if you do not align with those forces, God bless you, you know? And there’s some people who God has blessed. Shout out to Ryan Coogler. But there’s also so many Black people with radical Black art that have been totally fenced out. And I think that, I don’t know, I just kind of love the rest movement for Black women publicly. But I have a feeling that in five or 10 years, we’re going to get some deeper analysis and confession around what was actually causing some of these decisions too. And I that there was a little white supremacy and fascism and nudging out that’s going on too.
DeRay Mckesson: Do you feel the same about the Black is beautiful as you do about Black excellence, or do you see them differently and how they were sort of absorbed in the public zeitgeist?
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, totally different, because Black is beautiful. So that means Black ugly is beautiful, that means Black beauty is beautiful that means Black rude is beautiful that means Black polite is beautiful that means Diahann Carroll is beautiful and Little Kim is beautiful you know what I mean? Like you have these different examples. Black excellence is a branch of kind of a neoliberal classism idea where it’s like, oh, if you’re Black and you’re excellent, you’re accepted. But this is this is the standard to gain access into like Blackness or Blackness that is esteemed. Whereas Black is beautiful was democratic for real, you know, and even when I see the pictures, my mom went to um a Black Panther High School. So she has all these pictures of herself and her friends and stuff like that. And my mom is deep skinned, dark skinned Black woman. And to see all these children with their noses and their natural hair say, I am beautiful, with the backdrop of the sixties or seventies is totally different than seeing. You know, Black people in Ferragamo, even though I love me some Ferragam, having dinner and saying oh, we’re Black excellence and we have assimilated so successfully that we’re able to kind of create our own upper society inside of an empire that looks to kill everybody else in my community who has not done that.
DeRay Mckesson: Got it, that make sense to me. I think that’s helpful. When I think about the producer leaving at CBS, I can’t start anywhere, but think about Bari Weiss coming to CBS and what it means that, you know, she a clear conservative, she is installed by the Trump administration over there to do their bidding around news. And, you know, there’s been a 1.8 million viewer decrease since she has become the head of CBS. As we know, she’s chilled stories about the detention centers about Trump. And da da so I can only imagine what it’s like to come in thinking that you’re like a news producer and at least trying to tell the truth. And the new head is like very clearly, like you cannot tell the true about this. And if you came in like she did with a focus on equity and justice and race, you really are, like it’s probably, you know, it’s an untenable place to have integrity and have a commitment to the work. Like it becomes impossible. You know I’m interested to see what you all think about Rashida, because, you know, I know Rashida and she was great at MSNBC and putting new voices on and believing in young voices as contributors and this whole thing. And I was shocked that she’s, you, know, the Piers Morgan job was like, I saw that was like ah, it’s, you know, Piers is problematic is a light way to talk about Piers. So I thought that was sort of a weird move for her, but shout out to um the producer leaving CBS and you know, I’m worried, not that I wanted her to stay to be like the last fighter, you know? Cause like that sucks for her. You know when Bari Weiss clears out everybody over there.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm-hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: That is going to be even, I’m sure there are people still standing being like, I’m going to fight the good fight for as long as I can. And I’m gonna make sure it doesn’t get too crazy and da da and I think we need those people. I’ve been that person before. And being that person sucks. So I get when you’re like, I can’t do this no more. And I’m like, when they all leave, I think it’ll get even worse. And I am nervous about that.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I mean, on the on the Rashida Jones question, you know I think this is part of what I mean around like choosing yourself because I don’t imagine that you make that choice thinking about the impact of the stories you will tell and your reach and your influence on everyday Black people. I just don’t I just don’t see it. But I do also wonder, I don’t know her. If part of the trap that she has gotten caught in is one that I see happening across a number of issues in a number of spaces, which is this deep desire to bridge and seem quote unquote “rational” in this moment when everything feels so polarizing that you are not realizing how far to the right you are reaching, right? Because in a lot of ways, Piers Morgan does sometimes put on like legitimate and rational people, right? He does and so like there are moments when you can see something that feels real and authentic on a Piers Morgan show or interview or clip and so I’m wondering if part of what is happening for her again not knowing her and not trying to make excuses is this desire to say like everything else is so wild. We can be a rational middle ground. Totally missing how far to the right the middle has really moved
Myles E. Johnson: Oh, that was such a good point, because Piers Morgan is not seen as the right. Like, I think about um my first introduction to Piers Morgann, this might be very late, but you know, it was just my birthday, goo goo ga ga, I just turned five. Um, but like, but my first introduction to Piers Morgan was Janet Mock. And although that was a controversial interview, he still had a Black trans woman on having conversation that, yes, was some of it problematic, was some it just a mess, yeah, but it still felt like oh, it wasn’t like her on Jerry Springer, and it wasn’t like this combative, you’re not a real person. It could always be framed as this push to understand. So Piers Morgan, even like when I think about, when I see Marc Lamont Hill on something that is mainstream media, it will be with Piers Morgan. So like I do think that like sometimes in our bubbles or in our like kind of cultural hubs or whatever, he’s seen as like this far right figure and he’s just not seen as that. Even the things like Meghan Markle is kind of laughable because why are we over here defending somebody who decided to pass they way into the Buckingham Palace? You you–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: You class traded a long time ago. Why do we care about what’s going on with you?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yup.
Myles E. Johnson: But like, he’s not the most defined line in the sand as we would think.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Piers also understands the moment, like I think about the–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: –Janet Mock thing, I think about Piers covered the protests a lot. Like Piers has a pulse on like where the conversation is, for sure, and it could be interesting if Rashida uses that platform. You know, the the Trump stuff is so crazy that there actually is a market for the like, not Ellison owned company, like news company now, and you know, from a market standpoint, I think this would be a phenomenal opening and Rashida has the credibility that he does not have to get sane people to work over there. Because you’re like, I’m not working with Piers Morgan, but you’d work with Rashida, you know?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, he had Jaguar Wright on. [laughter] Talking about being on the Post. He’s on everybody. He’s that Black polls, white polls, so like he’s everywhere.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. Well, speaking of like, you know, the Trump-owned media ecosystem, one of the things that we’ve always said the Trump administration does well is like know how to capture the zeitgeist. And when we talked about where Trump was sort of planting himself and his ambassadors and proxies, they were in these spaces that were not traditional media spaces, right? When he was trying to reach young men, Black men, right. They were on the podcast circuit, they were you know at big sporting events, etc. And we saw news that had been reported for a while, but confirmed right, that the UFC is going to now train FBI agents. DeRay, that is your news, take us through it.
DeRay Mckesson: So I saw this first, thought it was a joke, and then I was like, oh no, Kash Patel is literally going to have the UFC train the FBI agents as if they are street fighters. You’re like, I’m annoyed that I’m defending the FBI agents. Like they do investigations and I don’t know, they’re not like street, what does that even mean? So the general question is like, at what point do the people inside say enough is enough? And the only reason I bring this up is that they have done it before. I think about Bill de Blasio is a great example to me is that Bill de Blascio is a white man who was mayor of New York City, definitely progressive. He did, he did a lot. I only know what he did with children and families and crime. So if you have a gripe with him about anything else, I don’t know that, but he did great on crime. He did great. on children and families, but famously the NYPD as a group turned their back on him. They publicly–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Were like.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Physically turned their back on him and were like, we do not support the mayor. They turned their back on David Dinkins when he was they mayor, you know, like. So there is precedent for the law enforcement agencies not necessarily on the right, like two leaders on the right, but to say like, this is too much. Now granted, when they did it to de Blasio, it was because he was like, y’all did something crazy. And it wasn’t even, he wasn’t even that intense about it. He just sort of said it. But I’m like, the FBI people, they’re already protecting his girlfriend. They’re taking Kash Patel’s girlfriend to like shopping trips to her friends. And you’re like, at what point do the people inside say, this is a mockery of the thing we thought was real? So like, that’s one question. And I guess the tinfoil hat me is like, well, white supremacy is like you just go along with the crazy, right? Like that would be like me being a teacher being like, I’m gonna bring in Abbott Elementary to teach you some teaching. You’re like what is happening? This is not real. This is offensive to me as a professional. And it’s just like a normal thing that they say at the press conference. So I brought it here cause I’m like, is there something that, tinfoil hat me is like white supremacy? But I’m like, is there another hat that I need to wear? Is there a different colored tin? Is there like, or is this just the absurdist implosion of the government?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I actually was like, oh, this is warrior culture, right? This is the same thing that we’re seeing around the AI clips that the White House is using, the video game scenes that the White House is using. Right? This is like, you know, Operation Epic Fury. This is this is Warrior Culture. And I actually was interested in talking about this with the two of you, both of you you know socialized as boys growing up and then DeRay, you know you being a grown man, like how does like warrior culture show up in the spaces you occupy? Because like that to me feels like what this is, right? Like it was the strongman thing. It was like, you know like when I was growing up, it was like you say something wild to me. And not to quote Mike Tyson, but everybody has a has a plan until they get hit in the mouth, right? And I used to pop off at people all the time. And then my grandmother was like, all right, we gonna put you in karate because you got to learn some discipline around like when to hit people and when not, right. My grandmother put me in karate in elementary school, you know? And it was like not that my feelings of anger or wanting to fight were wrong, but also as a girl, I was socialized out of wanting to lean into violence really, really early in a way that like my brothers, my cousins and other boys I knew were not. And this feels like young boys who got socialized into violence, who are now grown men, who think that the only way, haven’t unlearned that. That’s the short version of what I’m saying. And I’m just curious about, that to me is what is happening here, is that mindset that has been cultivated and validated that they haven’t been able to work themselves out of. And to your point, like, yeah, man, if I’m a forensic accountant at the FBI, I’m like, why am I here? What am I doing?
Myles E. Johnson: As a lady, I didn’t think about the warrior culture piece. [laughing]
DeRay Mckesson: As a lady.
Myles E. Johnson: But I was thinking about the brand piece. This made me think about Disney. So Disney, to me, one of the most powerful propaganda tools because it was America wielding that soft power. Of course we have things like the Song of the South, but then we have things like Cinderella and Snow White that just kind of integrate us into being used to white supremacy and white beauty being the norm. And I think about not necessarily the adults who are viewing this UFC fight and integration with the police, but I think about the children. I think about the children who are five or 10 or not even or who are just born, who are gonna grow up with the UFC and police just being one. And and that brand that they love and that fighter that they love, who are real fighters, not wrestlers who are real fighters just being just totally associated with police and violence. And I think about it too, when I think about the NFL and I wonder if the NFL wished they did the same thing quicker. I wonder, if there’s so many different brands that now that it looks like so many industries are gonna be totally gutted and the government times technology is gonna kind of like rule everything eventually, there’s so many brands who we’re seeing are finding the value of integrating with government because that will be their lifeboat and that will kind of keep them insulated from harm. So that’s what came to my mind. And what does a child who does not know the beforehand look like and what do they believe?
DeRay Mckesson: That’s interesting. I don’t know about the warrior culture piece. I think that’s right. That read is interesting to me. And Myles and Sharhonda, this the branding thing seems spot on to me, I think the people I’m around, I’m around a lot more people who were athletes in some version of school and are holding on to that. Like that became like–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: The the like, I wasn’t an athlete and I’m not anymore becomes their sort of this thing. And I’m like, whew.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Thank God I didn’t do sports because this feels, I was in student government and I had my own issues about being in student government, but I’m, like, you sports people. This is–
Sharhonda Bossier: Intense, yes.
DeRay Mckesson: This is is a lot.
Myles E. Johnson: You’re 39 Taylor. Taylor’s a fake first name.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. I’m like, this is real intense. I didn’t see it yet, but have you seen the conversation about the Manosphere documentary on Netflix?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I haven’t seen it yet either, but I have seen it. Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Myles, have you seen the conversation about it? The Louis Thoreau is like a, one of the guys at the Manosphere people like went and interviewed them, and it, even the clips that I saw, you know, they say all this stuff, and then the girlfriend comes in, and they walk it back, right? Or they like, this one guy is like very much like, have kids with whoever you want, da-da-da, he’s like, do you have kids? And he’s, like, two. And it’s like with the same person? He’s like yes. And y’all live together? Yeah, like. And it sort of, sort of undoing this idea, or sort of like exposing this reality that this performance of the incel is a performance. And that when y’all go home, this is actually not, none of this is real, like, for you in your life, the way you talk about people. And that’s sort of how I think about the warrior stuff, but I don’t know, I the UFC thing stuck out to me because it’s so it’s such a joke. Like, it just feels so ridiculous to me. And they deliver it as like a real policy. They’re like, hey, UFC training tomorrow. I’m like, that feels crazy.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m so curious about what those ticket sales are going to look like. Like if they surge, if they go under, like you know, I’m wondering about that too.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. Look, I think it’ll be a packed house. I really do. And I’m really interested in how people show up in this moment and challenge this moment. I’m also deeply interested in the conversations that people will have with their kids about what they’re seeing, you know? There are moments when I feel like we’re making progress and this feels like not one of those moments. Well, you know, my news is about where we get our news and increasingly how much we are paying to get our news. We talked about WAPO a few weeks ago, namely after that big slate of layoffs, I talked about as a former subscriber, right, deciding that I was going to reallocate those subscription dollars to a local outlet that I have a ton of respect for. And then I saw a story about the post informing its current subscribers that they are using an algorithmic formula to now set subscription prices. We’ve talked a lot about dynamic pricing around like food and other essential items, right? Because we’ve talked about how stores are now using those digital price tags so that can change them in real time. But this is the first time I’m seeing a story about something like a news or media outlet choosing to adopt that practice. I’m gonna read a little bit because I want to share with folks some of the data points that WaPo is likely using to decide what your subscription price is versus mine. WaPo has not publicly disclosed what data points they’re using. So this is, the opinion of an expert from the University of Virginia that I’m going to quote here. So when the POST algorithm evaluates the ideal subscription price to charge for a reader, the company can calculate in real time a high level of complexity based on massive data they acquire throughout the year. So as an example, if you use an Apple product, usually people increase prices because they assume that if you have an iPhone, you may have a higher income than if you have an Android. They know exactly from your IP address where you are reading most of the time. So they can access through Zillow how much the average cost of a house is in that area and probably infer really quickly your income. So holy moly, these companies know a lot about us and they are now using that data to let’s say differentiate our subscription tiers and experiences. Actually, just subscription tiers. There’s nothing that says if you are a higher tier subscriber, you get a different level of access, right? Just like, you can pay more, therefore we are going to charge you more. So, wanted to bring that to the to the pod because WaPo said to their subscribers, excuse me, hey y’all, like we’re going to be using this formula now. Look out for an increase in your subscription price.
Myles E. Johnson: Like surveillance socialism? I’m like I’m like, is that what I’m hearing? This is so scary. Like, I haven’t mentioned my girl in a minute in a couple of episodes, but shout out to Taylor Lorenz. Because when I tell you she be on this beat when it comes to what these tech folks, these publications, these media publications are doing, and the only thing, like, I really, like can add to it is as we’re talking about media, a lot of these shifts, whether we’re talking about UFC or CBS or what we’re currently talking about now, is because this white supremacist media matrix is dying. And I think that is what has given me a lot of hope and like optimism is that so much of this stuff is because people are not, cause WAPO is suffering, you know what I mean? Like that kind of makes me happy. But I think the thing that terrifies me is that these ideas exist. Like it actually doesn’t terrify me that Washington Post is using them. It terrifies me that this exists and something more evil, you know, we are you could already use your imagination of how this could be used to like totally ensure somebody’s like class position. Like, you could just prompt AI and be like, by what cent do I need to charge up to make sure this person’s permanently underclassed? And you’re just fighting your whole life. That’s what kind of like scares me about this, but damn, that was so eerie hearing you speak about it. I was not expecting to get, like, chilled. It was so.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: 1984, like ugh.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Shout out to Taylor Lorenz really, because she was on this beat. Just like she’s on the people are using like teenage privacy and all that stuff as a way to shut down parts of the internet. And I’m like, Taylor, you were the canary in the coal mine. This just makes me think about like what this, the whole premise of all of the market is that there’s regulation. Or for those of us, A, believe in a government, but for those of you who believe in the market, like free market politics is, yeah, it’s regulated, it’s not wholly free. And this is what happens when there’s no regulation. It’s like, we could legislatively stop this. We could say newspapers can’t do this, or we could say they have to report these metrics da da da. They can’t use these inputs. They can only use this one input. Like this is not an unfixable or manageable thing. And then all of a sudden we’re in this place where they’re clocking, like, did you buy, they’re going to be hooked up to Amazon soon, especially the Washington Post.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: I am positive they’re probably connected to Amazon. They’ve connected your Amazon account to your Washington Post account. And they can see how much money you spend.
Myles E. Johnson: If you have EBT.
DeRay Mckesson: If you have like food stamps, like you know the the opportunity, like Myles hinted to, the opportunity for abuse is just so rife that it sort of makes sense that we should probably regulate this in some capacity. This is how, you know, this is Sharhonda’s whole thing polymarket. Here we go to polymarket and Kalshi. There are other things that we should also be regulating that we do not. And I was just reading, this is I, maybe we talked about it here, but there’s a measles outbreak in Florida. This is super random, but there’s a measles. And and because Florida got rid of the vaccines for kids. And finally, it’s like a crazy outbreak and the legislators are like, we probably need to do the vaccines again. And you’re like–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. [laughing]
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. Yeah. Probably them kids dying from measles, which is a hundred percent avoidable right now, we probably should fix that.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. I mean, my face DeRay was actually because I finally found a doctor I really like, but she’s at a one medical and Amazon now owns one medical. And I shop at Whole Foods. That’s where I get my my meat and my fish. And so I’m thinking about like, even if I’m not subscribing to order things through Amazon, even if I’ve, you know, shut down my WaPost subscription. Like there’s a profile on me, you know what I mean? They know what I care about, they know what I’m seeing my doctor for, they know what my questions are, they know what meds I’m on, you know, all the, all the things. And they do know that, like, I’m a person who believes in subscribing to media and paying people for the work that they do, which is terrifying. On that Florida point, you know, I will tell you that every year I have a prayer for myself and for the last two years, my prayer has been that God doesn’t have to knock me on my ass for me to learn a lesson. And I’m gonna go ahead and extend that to Florida too, because y’all we told you, and now you getting knocked on your ass before you learn the lesson.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: On today’s show, I’m talking with Jesse Johnson, former Washington State Representative for the 30th Legislative District, educator and community leader. Jesse has spent his career working at the intersection of public service, education, and opportunity for young people and working families, from serving on the Federal Way City Council and in the state legislature, to helping connect students to career pathways through his work in public schools. In our conversation, we talk about leadership, community, opportunity, and what it means to build policy that actually responds to people’s lives. Let’s go. Jesse, it is great to have you back on the pod and what have you been up to?
Jesse Johnson: Well, since I left, aside from my professional life, I have two kids now. I have a four and two year old. So Elijah and Ezra. So being a father has been a blessing and seeing them grow. I’ve also been able to support my former hometown, Federal Way High School in developing a pre-apprenticeship program. So one of the things I legislatively got into place was the establishment of a pre apprenticeship program into the skilled trades. So I was the founder of that while I was in the legislature. And now we are essentially in our fifth cohort, I should say, of young people going from pre-apprenticeship to apprenticeship to journeymanship in the skilled trades, everything from construction and electrical to welding and longshoremen and just all these different avenues that are being provided. And just really excited about that work. So I think in this era of AI, the blue collar movement has kind of returned where a lot of our young people that are good with their hands are wanting some of those good paying, livable wage jobs. Currently, I also work for the State Treasurer’s Office. I’m the Director of Outreach and Community Engagement. So working for him and trying to get issues such as the wealth gap and, you know, making sure that we have opportunities for people to make good money here in Washington State. So a lot going on, wearing a lot of different hats. Of course, I would love to return to elective office one day. So we’ll see when that happens. But yeah, it’s been busy on my end.
DeRay Mckesson: So talk us through, what is pre-apprenticeship? I think I know what apprenticeship is. I don’t know if I know what pre-aprenticeship is, and then the difference between apprenticeship and journeyman, I don’t know that. Can you walk us through what like what does it what does that mean?
Jesse Johnson: Sure. Yeah, so a pre-apprenticeship is essentially, you know, like running start in high school. So if you’re say a junior or senior in high school, you go to the local community college, you get your AA while you’re still in high school, so then you can go and graduate. A pre- apprenticeship is sort of that same thing where you’re getting an early jump start on learning the trades and so juniors and seniors in high school are learning about all these different trades and they’re getting to go out on job sites and kind of get the preliminary idea of what it working in a trade looks like and then they also get a number of credentials they work on their OSHA safety credentials they work on forklifting and flagger they get all of the different credentials you’ll need to actually work on a job site of course in many states like Washington state you can’t actually work on the job site until you’re 18. So these are, you know, 16, 17, sometimes 18 year olds getting that study before they actually can work on the job site. Then when they turn 18, a lot of them that are graduating high school can go and actually get an apprenticeship with the local labor union or with a company and start making money right off the bat, right out of high school and work in an apprenticeship. And then you usually do that for two or three years, and then you’re now a journeyman where you’re working, you know, you’re getting the full salary. So it’s really getting a jumpstart into the trades earlier in high school.
DeRay Mckesson: And what have you learned in the process? I have to imagine that there are a lot of interesting things that you see with young people as they go through this process and people who sort of do it and are like, this is what I want to do. People who do it are like oh, interesting, that’s not what I wanna do. But like, what is the distribution around gender look like in this?
Jesse Johnson: Sure, that’s a great question. So what I’ve noticed in our first five cohorts, it started out as a program for folks that are struggling academically. So one of the things I always say is academic rigor is really just a subset of intellectual rigor. So the real the goal is to find your purpose and intellectual curiosity of what you actually want to do in your life. But a lot of times in schools, as we know, um if you’re not academically successful, you’re kind of pushed into other paths. So I noticed a lot of young people being sent there because they’re just not getting good grades. And so they’re like, well I’ll try this out. Or they go get sent to military school or whatever the case may be. But now that we’ve progressed, what I’ve noticed is a lot of young people that are actually really good with their hands and want to work in this space. They’re not just being sent there from their counselor. Because we’ve done like demonstrations at lunch, we went out and done recruiting of people in middle school. Like, hey, if you’re good with your hands, maybe you want to do this, consider this in high school. So we’re seeing that transition to people that are kind of being forced there to actually wanting to be there. And even a lot of smart, you know, quote unquote “smart kids” that just like the fact that they can get a job in estimating or project management down the road are going into business are going into the trades. So I’m seeing just that transition. I’m also seeing a number of color and young women getting into it because I think the recruitment is key. Like the messenger is really important. So now that we have a number of sort of ambassadors in our schools that are going out that are coaches, that are you know mentors in the schools that are of color or are women. They’re recruiting more kids into the program because as we know if you go out into a lot of construction job sites it’s usually typically white male dominated older white male specifically but now that we have this the silver tsunami where a lot the baby boomer generation is retiring out, there’s this need for this workforce, this influx of a new workforce. And so we have to do the recruitment and they’re really good livable wage jobs. And so we’ve created a part of our program is the the ambassadorship where we have, you know, people in the community that are of color, are women and are younger are going out and recruiting more students. So we’re seeing that shift. I would say right now in our cohort currently we have 75 kids. I would probably say two-thirds are kids of color, really high in the Latino and African-American nation. The gender one, so young women, that is a work in progress. I’d say we probably have about 10 young women out of 75 currently that are that are in the program. So that’s still a work in progress, but we are seeing a lot more kids of color, and it’s actually majority kids of color now.
DeRay Mckesson: And I’m also interested because I don’t even know what I would guess. Like, what are the most popular trades? Is it like electricians and plumbing?
Jesse Johnson: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Are like the two that come to mind. But I don’t I don’t I think I don’t even know what the whole range of the trades are. Automotive, is that one?
Jesse Johnson: Automotive is one. So, our four high schools in Federal Way, they each have a specific kind of pathway. So, one of the high schools, Federal Way High School, is construction. Decatur is automotive. Thomas Jefferson is electrical. And the last high school, Todd Beamer, is maritime, sort of like in the water, longshoreman type work. So, we have a specific focus at each high school. I’ve noticed a really high volume in the construction and electrical. And I think it’s because those are the kind of ones that you see out in your community the most. It’s really hard to get to like a naval port or something and see longshoremen at work, or automotive. You know, we see that too, but I think the construction and the electrical, first of all, have the highest salaries, especially electrical. You can come in about working at $85,000 to $95,000 as an average at 18 years old in, you know, if you finish your pre-apprenticeship early enough. Of course, you’ve got to do a lot of work to get to that point, but it’s really high because there’s a need for electricians and construction and carpentry is just behind that. So kids want to go where the money’s at, but also that’s where they see kind of the most in our community right now.
DeRay Mckesson: Let’s go all the way back to when we first met, when you were in the legislature. I’d love to know now that you’ve had distance from both that time in the world, which was like a, you know everybody was far left in and it was like we were pushing all this progressive stuff and you know we’ve seen the world change and you’ve changed roles and positions. Can you share any like lessons learned or advice to people who are like, wonder how you do structural change because you did it, you were inside, you’re like. You were in the belly of the beast and now you’ve had distance from it? Like are there lessons learned that we should know about?
Jesse Johnson: You know, frankly, I think the biggest lesson I’ve learned is the power of having a coalition in place that’s representative of even folks that disagree with you. You know, as you know, I worked on police reform and accountability work. Truly, of course, I had a lot of folks, stakeholders, advocates coming in that were like, we got to change the system. But it really wasn’t until I was able to work with those few police chiefs out there that actually saw the need for changing the system where things really got momentum. And I feel like. You know, as much as we want to say, like, advocacy, you know justice really comes down to us as advocates getting it across the finish line. We got to have some of those folks that may be a part of that particular system as part of our coalition. And that takes some convincing. I mean, that’s a lot of work, as you know. DeRay, you’ve done that work. I mean, getting folks that may disagree with you from the outside to come into your coalition takes a lot of time and effort. But I think that’s a big thing that I learned. And, you know, systems are really just people that develop and make systems and there’s not, unfortunately, a lot of systems that center humanity enough and center folks furthest from justice. And so really getting people to actually believe that things can change in the system because we have power in numbers when we are able to get folks from the community to the state capitol, to the city council chambers, to the school board to have these changes. And even on a national level, we really have to instill belief and hope and a way for folks to believe that the system can actually change, because until we get the numbers to actually make the movement possible, things aren’t going to really move in the way that we want them to.
DeRay Mckesson: Have you seen your community impacted at all by the stuff going on with ICE? Like people don’t think about Washington state as a border. You know, when we ask people, they think about the border as Mexico. They don’t think about like the border around the entire country and you live in a border state. How has that conversation been, especially because you were so active during this one era when people were talking about policing and now this is a different way that people are taking about policing?
Jesse Johnson: Yes and no. I would say Washington State, because we are considered a bluer state, a lot of our leadership, our elected leadership, governor, the mayors of the biggest cities in Seattle and Tacoma, are, I would say more left progressive and they’re doing everything they can, even our attorney general, they’re doing everything they they can to push back against ICE coming in. However, of course, they’re still getting in there. Just last week, in my hometown of Federal Way, outside of the Kaiser, one of our larger hospitals building, I think like seven people were detained. And so they’re still finding like–
DeRay Mckesson: Really?
Jesse Johnson: Yes, yes. And and and really, I mean, I think that local government has a big say in how we’re going to push back against this. So that’s kind of the issue because some of our local jurisdictions have a more conservative approach because they’re afraid to be stripped of funding or something, maybe they have this federal grant on a project they’re working on. So the local mayors I find to be a lot more conservative even than our state leadership out here. And so I’m seeing the local mayor is like, okay, I’m throw up my hands and then the state leadership trying to come in but they can’t be everywhere. I mean, we have 400 plus cities and towns in Washington state and 40 counties. And so, you know, I think I think it’s really challenging from a local level because you see a lot of good talking points coming out from our elected leadership like, hey, we’re pushing back on ICE. Like we believe in humanity and kindness as a revolutionary act and we want to make sure that ICE isn’t coming in to take over but yet people are still getting detained and you know and it’s not maybe a higher rate as some other states but we still see it happening especially in our really fast growing African immigrant and Latino population we’re like some of the faster growing those two particular areas across the country. So I’m seeing that impacted a lot.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh wow. What do you think, like how would you describe the state of organizing today when we think about what’s happening at the federal government, all the energy that was prevalent in 2014, 2020, like, how do you you think about this moment in organizing?
Jesse Johnson: In the last couple years, there’s been sort of a, a disconnect between organizers and folks in elected leadership. I think for a while there between about twenty I mean sixteen to 2022, we had a lot of momentum in a lot of different areas, whether it was police reform and accountability, gun violence, some of the things happening at the federal level that were impacting our local governments, and organizers and elected leadership were working hand in hand on a lot of issues. Now I’m seeing a disconnect and I don’t know if it’s because people in elected leadership are afraid or we’re not pushing hard enough from the other side but I’ve been seeing this kind of lack of momentum or at least a slowdown of the momentum that we had. I know in my case now that I’m a private citizen the last two years it’s kind of worrisome to see how elected leadership has been shifting more to the middle or even to the right, to an extent. And I’m talking about I’m talking about Democrats. I’m not talking about you know folks that I can’t you know can’t really impact on the other side. But in terms of like Democratic leadership, um I’m seeing a shift. And I think you know, it’s just a byproduct of the times we’re living in where folks are concerned and maybe they feel like they’re going to get impacted financially in the pocketbook. Um. And so what they do is they tend to kind of move towards the middle. And so that’s a concern. And I would say organizers are having it the toughest right now. Like we’re literally in Washington state having to work to pass bills like law enforcement shouldn’t be able to cover their faces and disguise themselves as ICE. You know, I mean these are things that are happening and you’re having to work past these bills and we’re in a bluer state so I can only imagine in other states how challenging it is.
DeRay Mckesson: When you say you see some of the people on the left sort of moving more to the middle or more conservative, what kind of issues is that? Like, I hear you with the covering the mask thing. Is it like they are less interested in criminal justice stuff? What are the things that you’re like, oh, these are the things we need to pay attention to that people are moving to the center on that we used to be on the left on?
Jesse Johnson: Yeah. I would say it’s definitely in the in the community safety space or um anywhere where we’re you know we’re trying to dramatically change a system that’s been in place a long time, like the police system, like our legal system, our criminal justice system. Um. And I would venture to say it’s even kind of impacting our economic system as well when we’re talking about economic justice and cost of living, affordability. So you know as we see it right now, folks that are making the most money are still um, mathematically paying less in terms of the tax structure here in Washington state. So literally in the middle of debating a millionaire’s tax right now for the first time, we’re one of only eight states in the country that does not have an income tax in Washington state. Yet if you look at those eight states, we’re probably the highest in terms of people moving here in the tech industry and all these spaces to live here. And so in one city alone in Seattle, we have over 80,000 millionaires and they’re paying less [?]–
DeRay Mckesson: Wow.
Jesse Johnson: Per capita than folks that are making less than 50,000 a year. So we’re a really regressive tax code and they’re fighting tooth and nail to get any sort of an income tax. And it’s because Democrats are afraid of the talking points, the narrative, oh, they’ll leave to Florida and Texas, or they’ll, you know, we won’t have as many employers out there to employ. Those same talking points are being used against it. So it’s kind of across the board, so it’s not even just some of those, like, polarizing, I would say, issues, even economically, cost of living affordability. That should be a no brainer, but we’re struggling to get everyone on board there, too.
DeRay Mckesson: That is interesting. You know, one of my hunches has always been that the base is further left than the leadership, right? They’re like, the people are like, you know, we don’t need ICE, da da da, and then the leadership compromises. Is that true in Washington state, would you say?
Jesse Johnson: It’s true. I mean, we are slightly more left in terms of numbers probably than other states, but in those numbers, like I’m just thinking of my own Democratic caucus in Washington state. When I was there, I would say there’s maybe 10 out of 147 member legislature that were truly like progressive, like pushing the agenda. You know, very, very few, probably grown a little but even now like that that caucus within the caucus of progressives is struggling to get any leadership. Like they’re not getting the majority leader positions. They’re not getting the chairs of the committee positions. They’re not getting the whip positions. So they’re members, but they’re not really getting stronger to push the agenda. So that’s why we’re seeing that like things are staying so stagnant in terms of progress on a lot of issues. We had that moment of time that I think we really took advantage of um with police reform and accountability in 2020 because unfortunately of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor. Locally and Manny Ellis here. But now what I’m seeing is like this, like they’re getting shunned kind of from the caucus in this weird way. And it’s like, well, because of the federal administration, because of the way it feels like America is going, it, you know, we can’t have it too progressive in our leadership. We have to kind of move to the middle. And that really is concerning because I don’t think that’s going to get it done. Because that’s, every poll is s weaying people want it to be more progressive. But It’s not representative of that in our in our legislature.
DeRay Mckesson: What are you up to next and what do you want us to pay attention to as we sort of think about 2026?
Jesse Johnson: I’ll answer the latter first, I think 2026, these midterms, and I’m not even just talking about congressional Senate seats, but the local state Senate, state rep seats, these are gonna be huge positions. Um. And I think it’s gonna be representative of where we go in ’28. So I’m curious, you know, I was watching what happened in Texas with um the Jasmine Crockett seat. And obviously I wanted her to move forward, but I do think like we gotta now unite behind folks like Talarico. And so it’s the similar across the country, like we got to come together and it’s the power of numbers again. We got to get people in these seats. So I’m curious about that. For me personally, I am looking at County Council here in Washington State. So our County Council, King County is actually the seventh largest county in the entire United States, Martin Luther King County.
DeRay Mckesson: Wow.
Jesse Johnson: The second on the west coast. So we’re only behind LA county just ahead of San Diego county on the West Coast in terms of population size. And our budget in King County is pretty huge. It’s like half of the entire Washington state budget. So I’m looking at one of those seven seats here in King county. County council is a position that literally controls a lot, but they don’t get the notoriety like state legislative positions do or mayor positions or these other positions. And I don’t know why, but I would love to see county council kind of be on the map as somewhere where there’s power in that. And there’s, and there’s an ability to shift both our economy and the wellbeing of folks in our state in that position. So I’m looking at that, my current county council position in district seven, the guy has been there 35 years, he literally just turned 82 years old. And so he’s making a killing in terms of like staying there for his pension, but he’s in Arizona half of the year on the golf course. Like it’s, it’s like one of those things where until he gets pushed out.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m like, stop it.
Jesse Johnson: Yeah, people just stay there. It’s, like, hey, why not if I’m not going to get a real person running against me? So I’m looking at that one for sure.
DeRay Mckesson: It was good to check in, and I’m excited to see what you do next. We passed a lot of bills in that sort of era, but you were the youngest legislator we had worked with. And it was like, oh look, he just won, and like he is about it. And we had such good debates, and I’m excited to see what you do next!
Jesse Johnson: I appreciate that. We’re in this together and we have a lot to focus on for our communities. Um. You know, as you know, there’s a lot to work on so I’ll be around and in touch and happy to always work with you.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m gonna call you back about parole. We’re going to bring back parole in the great state of Washington.
Jesse Johnson: And I think we might have the votes this time if we can really work around the angles. So yeah, let me know.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. And don’t forget to follow us at Pod Save the People and Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we will see you next week. Pod Save The People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrie and mixed by Charlotte Landes, executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors, Myles E. Johnson and Sharhonda Bossier. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
