In This Episode
House Dems face disciplinary action over opposition to ICE, white South African refugees welcomed into U.S. while others refused, a debate on mainstream use of Black revolutionary rhetoric.
News
Trump admin eyes arrests for House Dems over ICE incident
U.S. to accept white South African refugees while other programs remain paused
Shedeur Sanders fan sues NFL for $100 million over draft drop: ‘severe emotional distress’
Multiple ICE impersonation arrests made during nationwide immigration crackdown
NEW: Ohio Dad’s Son RUNNING For His Life
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles and Sharhonda, talking about the news with regard to race, justice, and equity that you might not have heard last week or news that you did hear but didn’t hear from this perspective. Make sure you join our community on Instagram at Pod Save The People. And here we go. [music break] Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles and Sharhonda, talking about the news with regard to race, justice and equity that you might not have heard last week or news that you did hear but didn’t hear from this perspective. Make sure you join our community on Instagram at @Pod SaveThePeople and here we go. [music break] We are recording on Mother’s Day, it’s great to be back. This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @Myles.e.johnson, I think, on Instagram. But it’s all crumbling. You don’t got to follow me. Follow God.
Sharhonda Bossier: And this is Sharhonda Bossier at @BossierS on Spill.
DeRay Mckesson: Now, since we last recorded, the Met Gala happened. It had not happened when we recorded. Did you all have standout outfits, or was there any, you know, we had a conversation about the political significance or insignificance of the Met Gala before it happened. Have those views changed since it happened?
Sharhonda Bossier: I thought Janelle Monáe was best dressed. Um. I really, that was my my vote. I think I was a little disappointed by how safely everyone played it. I think, I was looking for like people to kind of wow me and it’s not that people didn’t look great. I think I thought people looked great. It just felt like people were not taking risks. Even Colman Domingo, who I think is beautiful and like I always look forward to what he wears, felt like he was outdressed by his husband to me, uh and so, I don’t know. I this is I’m not a fashionista. Y’all, please don’t start pulling my pictures online talking about, but look, you wore this in public, right? But I um yeah, I was hoping that we would see people be a little bit more innovative and sort of push Black dandyism into the future, and I don’t think I saw a lot of that from the looks I saw.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I was I was kind of shocked how much um I didn’t like it. Like usually I have a more of a struggle because usually I’m really seduced by beautiful things and fashionable moments, but I just there was no seduction. The moment that I saw going viral of um Colman Domingo with Anna Wintour gazing at the Black choir, again, it just seems like we’re in this era where these kind of like minstrel, odd, absurdist imagery is just really easy to produce. And, you know, sometimes, listen, my blanket comes wet. So I’m used to feeling certain types of ways. I was surprised at how many people I was seeing on the internet from different Black people from different walks of life commenting on the Met Gala. So one of the ones I wanted to read was by at @MissBelladonic on X. They say, thinking about the peoples all over the world who have to constantly rebuild their lives because of the U.S. militarism, which the Met and the Gala’s founders support, do they not have culture and histories worthy of preservation and celebration? And she go they go on to talk about the Met Gala as an institution that helped harm Black people and how we’re celebrating it and how often our celebration can cloak the actual indictment or critique of institutions like the Met Gala. I was really interested, that was just one that I pulled, but I was really interested in those different critiques even when I was watching Funky Dineva. Funky Dineva was like, what are we doing this, y’all? And, you know, I kind of think about the personality, but I also think about who the personality talks to. Funky Dineva’s audience is middle-aged um to older, anti-Black women. Um. A lot of these other people are younger 20s, 30s folks who I would call inside of the cultural academic conversation. And then I just saw some other people who just weren’t swayed with it. And, you know with my eyes and seeing um Colman Domingo’s fine ass just just a gazing and smirking with Anna Wintour, I’m like, yeah, that does kind of cut, you know, it does feel like we’ve gotten so far in 2025, but we’re still recreating these images that are disempowering and filled with uh just this toxic amount of respectability that has gotten Black people no where.
DeRay Mckesson: It is interesting, you know, we all watched it together. Everybody’s tweeting it, people on Instagram, people on Threads. And I remember the first Met Gala I paid attention to was during the protests because, you now, it was like we had been in the street for a long time and then the Met Gala comes and and then I had a critique of the power dynamic, but I remember also being like, wow, this is really beautiful and, da da da. And I do think there’s a limit to how many years you can just see priceless dresses and suits. You’re like, okay, I saw it, I got it. You’re, like, da-da-da-da. And, you know, people gave AOC grief for the eat the rich dress, but I at least appreciated sort of some political message. The only overtly political message that seemed to appear this one is the one that they had to disavow. Do you remember the woman who they said had Rosa Parks on her crotch? Did you do you remember that?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I remember that.
DeRay Mckesson: It was like, and then they were like, it’s not, I mean, thank God it wasn’t Rosa Parks on her crotch, but you’re like, I was actually shocked that there was nobody attempting to make sort of a political message in this moment. Like none of the outfits, I guess, Teyana Taylor’s outfit, I guess. I don’t know, but [?].
Myles E. Johnson: That’s the only thing I liked about it.
DeRay Mckesson: That it wasn’t.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I think just stop it. Because I’m like, I’m like it’s you know what you’re making money for, you know how much the tables are, you know the institutions you’re giving money for. You know what, you’re using your Black cool, your Black beauty for. You’re using it to further on the empire. You’re, everybody’s kissing Anna Wintour’s feet. Do not pretend to say something political or radical, just so you can get some brownie points on the internet who won’t give a fuck in two days. Just go ahead and be a Sambo.
Sharhonda Bossier: Ooh.
DeRay Mckesson: Ooh. Well, now.
Myles E. Johnson: Sorry, is Sambo a curse word? I thought that was me trying not to say the racooon word.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, when I saw Saquon Barkley’s outfit, I was like, you know.
Sharhonda Bossier: Well.
DeRay Mckesson: This is one we can give back. He can–
Sharhonda Bossier: There you go.
DeRay Mckesson: They can have we can we can trade him in the in the um–
Sharhonda Bossier: In the racial draft?
DeRay Mckesson: In the racial draft, he can go. Um. You know, it’s been interesting. We didn’t talk about this last week, but there’s been a lot of conversation about Luigi and, you know, he’s raised a ton of money. His trial is seemingly coming up. Um. I don’t know if you saw, but they had been listening to phone calls of him and his lawyer in in jail. So that there’s this whole legal drama of that, cause that is illegal. Um. And I’ve been it’s been interesting how long the celebration of Luigi has been as somebody who is pushing back on the system and who is righteous in their anger about something unjust. And Luigi made me think about the most recent case that has hit the news around policing, uh Rodney Hinton Jr., who is being charged with intentionally hitting and killing an Ohio sheriff’s deputy with a car. After his son, Ryan Hinton, who was 18 years old, was fatally shot by the police. Now, all reports say that Ryan Hinton was running away from the police officers when he was shot. The police are saying that um that he pointed a gun at them. We don’t know what is going on with that investigation, but you know it’s all over the place. The police showed up in droves to the father’s hearing and seemed to be um seemed to be threatening him by having all of the police show up in, just in force like that. It was really interesting to see. But the accounts of the son being killed is that the Cincinnati police say they got a report of a stolen car at the condos, and four teenagers got out of it and started running. Within six seconds, an unidentified officer fired four to five shots, hitting Hinton twice and ultimately killing him. The officer says Hinton turned to point his gun at him as he fled between two dumpsters. Now, the family is saying this literally didn’t happen. He was running away, da da da. But that’s what happened. I bring it here because it’s interesting to see the way people talk about Luigi and juxtaposed to the way that people talk about Ryan Hinton Sr, obviously very different cases. And the officer who Ryan Hinton Sr. hit was not the officer who shot his son. But I wanted to bring it here because people have been talking about it. People have been sending messages about it, we did not talk about it last week. I wanna know what you all think.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think people understood Luigi killing the health care executive as being a statement about the structural violence of health insurance and the denial of health insurance and health coverage for people in the United States. I think in the case of Hinton, you know, police officers have done a good job of individualizing their assessment of risk. Right? And I don’t think people understand Hinton’s actions as also being a reaction to structural or systemic violence, right? And so they’re like, this police officer did not do anything, right. And like, for all we know, the UnitedHealthcare CEO also hadn’t done anything that personally impacted Luigi, right, but people understood that as a statement about a system or a structure. And people are seemingly having a hard time understanding Hinton’s actions similarly. I also think that um people are missing that Hinton’s actions are deeply rooted in grief, right? And like, I don’t know what you do when you, when you lose your child in that way. Right. And like I feel like people are, there are, there are never in most people’s eyes, legitimate reasons for Black people to ever use violence or to respond with violence. Right? And I think what people are struggling with in this moment is that people seem to have liked this police officer, right? He was so close to retirement. There are all these stories about who he was as a person and that divorces him from his like representation as this broader systemic or structural thing that I think Hinton was actually reacting and responding to.
Myles E. Johnson: It seems like the police have a better PR apparatus than UnitedHealthcare, right? So I think that they’re a little bit more prepared for moments like this. I think the Luigi moment was a little bit more of a surprise and just less packed with history and context already. We know most people know the story around Black folks and police and whereas I feel like the Luigi moment let us enter a new story in a different way. The other thing, too, is it really depends on who you’re asking, because the Black men who I’ve been speaking to and and who I have not been speaking too, because you know I’m in you know I’m in Ohio y’all, so like I’m hearing so many conversations around this moment, and they seem pretty clear on what’s going on. Um. They seem pretty activated by what’s going on. And this is kind of the same thing I was saying around the Lincoln Heights incident. This is the same thing that I’ve been saying around, um even when we think about Black men and going to college and those articles coming out, that there is a political moment that nobody’s meeting when it comes to a lot of Black people. And specifically when it come to Black men and it’s a cultural and political moment that is just such a wide gap. And to me, this illustrates it to me because that man’s reaction, Lincoln Heights, those folks’ reaction was protection, vengeance, and violence, right? No matter how you feel about it, it was no more moral Democrat, Republican, let’s wait incremental bullshit. It was, you you do this to my son, I’m coming for you. And my life is already a nothing. So I rather my life literally turn into nothing via prison or via death, knowing that I honor my son. That’s where Black people are at. That’s where a lot of poor Black people are at. And if we’re not even attempting to kind of create language that meets them in that rage, might as well call it off now.
DeRay Mckesson: It is interesting too, because you know the last decade, and I think about myself, this is the work that I do around police accountability. The last decade we have been told about accountability systems, and we’re trained in policies and laws, and you know it looks like there’s a lot of momentum. And then you watch Tyre Nichols get killed on–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes. Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: –camera. Tyre Nickols did nothing in Memphis. And then, you watch the officers get acquitted, and you’re like. You know, what do you tell people? Like, what, what do you say in that moment? You say, you know file a lawsuit, the DA got you, da da da, you tell them all these things. And with Tyre, there’s no other story. There’s no different version. We watched it. Even, you now, George Floyd and Derek Chauvin did get convicted. He is serving a sentence. I don’t know if you all heard, but there’s a rumor going around that Trump is going to pardon Chauvin.
Sharhonda Bossier: Oh, I had not heard that.
DeRay Mckesson: During police week. Yeah, this is the rumor. You know, the only thing I have to say to that is that Trump really does want chaos in the streets so he can call the National Guard. Remember if Chauvin gets pardoned by Trump, he still was convicted by the state of Minnesota and he did not have overlapping sentences. So if he gets released from federal custody, he will immediately begin his state custody. So just remember that, that Trump is playing us. But, even with George Floyd, still today there are people who are like uh Derek Chauvin didn’t kill him. They’re like, he died because he had high blood pressure and used drugs. And you’re like what? Yeah, so I, you know, the Hinton case, I think you’re right, Miyes. I think that there are a whole set of people who who participated in what they were told for a long time. And they were like, yep, I’m gonna do it. And then that failed. And they are thinking about other options. And that is, I think, where we are.
Myles E. Johnson: Yes, but I think the thing I want to illustrate even deeper is that there is a lot of people who never participated in that. So there are people who are poor, people who were born into certain types of ideas around what happens when you come and disrespect me, who had never invested in these kind of paradigms of right and wrong, who are now, were beginning to see actions that maybe portray, I don’t know how to say, I really don’t know how say it. It just seems as though there’s a certain type of new moral compass that’s surfacing from people who maybe never cared about this system, never found themselves invested in it morally. Does that make, you know what I mean?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I’m not going to get they justice, so I’m going to get mine.
Myles E. Johnson: But it’s not awakening. Like, that to me feels different. That to me, feels different to me.
DeRay Mckesson: Myles, Myles, let me just, let, me just circle back. [laughter] Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Um. I don’t know if you’ve seen too, but Mayor Pete has been making the rounds on the podcast circuit. I think he’s been an effective communicator in a landscape of real challenges around communication on the left. And then you know Trump is asked about Mayor Pete and delivers just one simple homophobic sentence that you know very much played to the base. Where he said about Mayor Pete, he quote, “Has no clue. You know, he drives to work on his bicycle with his in all fairness, with his husband on his back.” And you’re like, well, Trump, what are we doing with you, man? So I wanted to bring up Mayor Pete here. He has been making the rounds on the right, certainly on the left. What are y’all thoughts about Mayor Pete’s recent forays in the press and Trump?
Myles E. Johnson: I think, I hope this is not just a dream, that means life is getting really crazy. But I think I already discussed Andrew Schulz and Pete and how much–
Sharhonda Bossier: You did yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: And how off the mark I thought that was and how I’m just not a Pete Buttigieg uh a believer like I see a lot of other people are. I’m just not a believer in that way. A, I don’t think um a gay man is gonna get elected. I don’ think that this is what the moment’s looking for and I think it’s all about that identity. And I think that what’s so interesting, though, to me, just to I guess, work on top of that Andrew Schulz critique, temper tantrum, was now you did all this stuff, you sat down with somebody who made a rape joke about a Black man, and you sat down, you grew you grew your beard out, you’re talking about going to Iraq, and you did all of this to make it seem like you had bigger balls, and you’re more alike than these people, then you are different. And in two sentences, Trump just unravels all of that. So more than likely, you were never going to gain those voters anyway, but if there was any leeway, any legitimacy that this kind of whole, uh, this, this tour inside of, uh the manosphere was doing for Pete, it was just unraveled in two sentences and what I think is funny and interesting about Trump’s homophobia in this moment, is this is the homophobia that neoliberal fascism lends you on, because it is quiet, it’s subtle, it’s, I’m not homophobic, but it paints this picture that really is is the foundation of what makes most straight homophobic people uncomfortable around gayness. It’s just the sitting on two bikes going down the street together. Ugh. Just something about it. It just makes me feel, uh, he just tapped on that. But if you just write it out, it’s not the most homophobic thing you ever heard. I probably said more homophobic things in a gay club at 6 a.m. before. It’s not, it’s not the wildest thing you’ve ever heard, but it really just um is actually just quite masterful. And just make you uncomfortable enough with the imagery enough, and what it also says is your next president cannot be riding a two-seater bicycle with no man. That’s just not the America you stand for, and that, to me, is the message, and yeah yeah. So I hope it was worth it, Pete.
Sharhonda Bossier: The only thing I will add, because it is the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time, and I really hate that it came out of Trump’s mouth was, which is a nice loving relationship. And there was something about that that truly did me in. And I think to Myles’s point, it was because of the subtle homophobia in it, right? It was the like, you know, I respect his choice. I’m a little grossed out by it, but like, you know I. I don’t know, I, when I heard that clip, when I watched that clip I was like, this man is just, he’s so good. And I think one of the things that Trump, I mean, one of things that I feel like I did in in the first go round was sort of, um at least in the early stages of his campaign in the, during the Republican primary, did not understand just how strategic he was about playing into the like, y’all think I’m harmless and a little bit of an idiot, right? With those like insidious kinds of jokes, right? The like which is a nice loving relationship, one of my uncles would say, you know what I mean? And it’s just like, that is the thing that he’s really good at. And I think some of my like, honestly, like laughter was like, man, holy shit, I know this landed with people I know. Ya know?
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, I do think I do think Pete has a chance. I think he’s a great communicator. I don’t know if I love him being on Andrew Schultz was just a real misstep to me. I was like, bro, this is not good. But um I think in the landscape of the party, I think that Pete has a bright future, and I think he could win. I actually think that Pete could win, I think that the way Trump is homophobic, like you both said, it lands in a way that people can say like, oh, no, no, no. I still like gay people. And that is–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: So let’s just be real.
DeRay Mckesson: What’s up Myles?
Myles E. Johnson: And let’s talk, and if you know a Black person, listen, if you’re a white person, close your ears or keep this between us. You think that enough Black people would vote for an openly gay man in 2028, specifically knowing who and what age and what church-going demographic is the most loyal to the Democratic Party. You think he has a chance, for real?
DeRay Mckesson: I do, yeah. I think they would not vote for anyone else but a white gay man. I think if a gay person will win, I think it will be a white, gay man who–
Myles E. Johnson: Then I think you should run in 2028 because I think you’d have a better chance. [laughter] Then you–
DeRay Mckesson: Who is–
Myles E. Johnson: We need to get you off this podcast and get this right.
DeRay Mckesson: Who is masc presenting. Yeah, I think that, you know a lot, I know some people, yeah, I don’t know. I think if a gay person would win, I think it’d be a masc presenting white man.
Sharhonda Bossier: No, I don’t even know if I feel like he could win state-wide office, right? Like, I think, like, there are just pockets of people–
DeRay Mckesson: I’m getting ganged up on–
Sharhonda Bossier: –that are deeply–
DeRay Mckesson: –in the podcast y’all.
Sharhonda Bossier: –deeply uncomfortable by, by the, like made deeply, deeply uncomfortable about the idea. And then like, I’ve got to do what? I’ve gotta look at him on the trail with his husband and their kids. I’ve go to explain to my kids where those kids came from. I got to explain to my kids that some people have two daddies.
DeRay Mckesson: We got time, this is why we talking about it on the podcast. We got time.
Myles E. Johnson: We need time, like, 20 years.
Sharhonda Bossier: Listen.
DeRay Mckesson: Alright. No, no.
Sharhonda Bossier: Listen.
Myles E. Johnson: The only reason I wanted to bring this home, like, my, like disbelief in this, is because I don’t think if we’re going to ever see a Democratic party in the next, or a Democratic officer in power in the like, let’s say, 16 years, like, I just don’t think we could ignore the reasons that maybe feel too simple or too flat as to why Vice President Harris didn’t become in office. And I think we did. I’m not like us, the three of us, but just people in general said, well, it’s about money. It’s about economy. Nuance, nuance, nuance. That’s the new N-word. Like, I get that. But there was also some heavy identity politics that just weren’t cleared, that also helped her fail. And I thank us ignoring how much that informed people’s victory. Is just, it feels a little dangerous.
DeRay Mckesson: I mean I get it. Shout out to Shedeur Sanders, who, you know, they played in the NFL. He was a fifth round pick, and he not only had the number one selling jersey, but he is the promo for the NFL right now. They tweeting about him. They just can’t, they can’t stop talking about Shedeur. And they did all of that. And I love how great Deion has trained his sons to deal with the media. Like they just are like on it and I love it. I it’s just such a good thing to watch.
Sharhonda Bossier: And speaking of Shedeur, right, like one of the things that um I saw this week was that a fan is suing the NFL, claiming like emotional distress because they were so invested in Shedeur’s success and him getting drafted early, et cetera. And it’s just a really interesting thing, I think, to think about a young fan feeling that connected to a player, like having that kind of parasocial relationship. So much so that they feel like they should go and sue the NFL to be like, not only did you play in his face, but you played in mine. And I am seeking the requisite compensation so that I can be made whole as a result. Um. But I think what’s also interesting is in a culture where, you know, for a lot of people, professional athletes become almost like gods to us. What’s gonna happen to Shedeur as he continues to play and to your point, as he figures out how to better leverage the media uh and control the narrative around who he is, his early experiences in the NFL. Like, is this going to be like, Shedeur will be the ultimate sort of NFL phoenix, you know, rising from the ashes of being a fifth round draft pick? Uh. But yeah, I thought the idea that a fan would say, I feel, you know so harmed by the NFL doing this to a player that I’m seeking damages was really interesting to me.
Myles E. Johnson: Or like a little stupid, though, too, right? [laughter] Like, that’s like code word for a little, like a little goofy. That’s a little goofy, right? I don’t get it, y’all. I don’t understand. I don’t I really, really don’t get it. And the more so I was watching this. Ooh, I wish I could remember who he was. I think it might have been, like, the Waving the Red Flag podcast, which I really like. I’m trying to do better at just naming the people um who I enjoy. So I think it might be that podcast, but if it’s not, I’m sorry. But um you know, just straight dudes talking who have some sense. And I feel like one of them even talked about the parallels between what’s happened in football and what happened what happened in chattel slavery in this kind of like weird um just this weird place football finds you in and the ownership of it all, you know, and as somebody who only who’s not a fan of football, not a fan of sports, but who understands how it works and hearing these other Black men talk about how uncomfortable it makes them, the idea that although it might be a high payday, there are just white companies, white billionaires, white wealthy people who are sensibly saying, what is the cost for your life? What’s the cost for your health? What’s the cost for your body? And people give it to them and people give them that that cost and something about it just makes me feel icky. And again, I’ll say it again. I don’t understand for the life of me. I understand very clearly if you’re using anything as an escape. A bridge outside of poverty. I think that that makes total sense for me. I understand the utilization of class mobility and sometimes you got to do what you got to do. I do not get having a rich dad and not taking my ass to school and not going to Europe and saying, you know what, maybe my spine is good being intact. Hey, maybe I don’t want to crash my head into nothing and make it so by the time I’m 50, I could be a different person like I just don’t I don’t it don’t don’t make sense to me specifically if the dollar is not a part of it.
DeRay Mckesson: I will say with the NFL, it’s so interesting. If you remember, obviously, Colin and all the drama and they were like, Goodell was like, we are not getting involved in politics. He was like politics is not what we’re doing, da da da, and then what does he do a week ago? He is up at the White House with Trump. And you’re like, oh, this is interesting. And to your point, Myles, people called it everything but race when we were talking about this stuff, they called it, you know, a conversation about patriotism and blah, blah, and you’re like, no, this boils down to the black and white of it all. [music break] Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming. [music break]
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Now, before we hop onto the news, we want to give a shout out to the person closest to God on this green earth, our brother, Pope Leo, from the good, great state of Illinois, who may or may not be Black. So I just wanted to give a shout out, shout out to God for finding our good first American Pope and wanted to know what your thoughts are about Brother Leo.
Sharhonda Bossier: One of my friends in the group chat uh you know texted and was like, we have a Creole pope, right? Like a Creole pope from the seventh ward. And what’s funny about it obviously is, as you all know, like my family is from that part of the country, identifies as Creole, all the things. And um they talked to the pope’s brother who was like we don’t identify as Black, right? But the like pope’s maternal grandfather has you know records that say he was either born in Haiti or the Dominican Republic, as you know, that depends on what side of the border, same island, right? Um. Or Louisiana. And then they migrated to Chicago when you know the home they lived in was you know taken over through eminent domain to build um to build something. So I think it’s an interesting story and an interesting look at passing, right? And I think there’s a conversation to be had about like once you move from a place and you’re divorced from your initial familial and community context, how depending on how you look, you were able to pass. They did ask the Pope’s brother how his mother identified and he was like, I don’t know. She probably would have said she was like Spanish, right? Which is like not white in 1912, right. [laughter] But I think that’s really interesting. Look, as someone who was raised Catholic, I think it’s interesting to think about the church having its first American-born pope in 2,000 years, what that means for what the church is trying to signal about how it wants to engage with the US politically in this moment, also choosing a pope who um is part of an order that is focused on bridging and bringing people together, right, as part of its sort of ethos and core set of values. So I will be really interested to you know to think about that, to follow that and to hear how those conversations evolve in my family, especially because my family like a lot of Black people, right? Once we know you Black, whether or not you claim us, we claiming you. And so, you know, we’re saying special prayers for the Creole Pope.
Myles E. Johnson: Um. I’m intercepting those prayers because we need to stop trying to just, it feels like we’re trying to wring a rock and hopefully a one drop of Black blood comes out.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Like it’s just not there.
Yes. Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Let him do that. So my thing with the um with the Pope Leo is his history. I was also fascinated with him being the first American born Pope. I was also curious about what that might signal, it’s hard for me to imagine that even though I know these decisions are supposed to seem like they just come out of nowhere, it just seems like they’re all, they’re political decisions as well. And then even when um Pope Leo’s history came out, Pope Leo has talked about not being um uh fond of the homosexual lifestyle, being against ahomosexual lifestyle, being anti-gender ideology. So that one, listen, I’m kind of used to hearing people um people say they don’t like gay people or they don’ believe in the gay lifestyle or they don’t believe in gay marriage. I count it all homophobic rhetoric that you use in order to gain power, including when it’s used by a pope or Obama. I’m like, you trafficked in homophobia to get your power in that moment. I think the same I think the same thing about this pope, but the gender ideology stuff kind of gets me because it that feels newer. And that makes me worried about us having any type of allyship in the Catholic Church. And it makes me feel like this declaration of him being a pope felt like it might have gotten okayed by some people who have touched Trump. I’m not trying to say that they called up Trump and said, is this person okay? And Trump said, are you woke or are you not? But I’m also not not saying that either. And I also want to remind people how the Catholic Church is weaponized in the far right. Candace Owens–
Sharhonda Bossier: For sure.
Myles E. Johnson: –publicly came out as Catholic. And um so many far-right figures reorientate themselves around this religion because it seems to be the most religious, the most traditional. So it seems as though this pope selection was affirming that and really telling a lot of different types of far- right individuals, we don’t want no smoke. That’s what it seems like that decision was for me. I don’t I don’t have no hope. I don’t give grace to popes.
DeRay Mckesson: I am interested though, you know, the comments that the comment that people keep referencing about Pope Leo’s homophobia is out. Let me read the full quote. It says, Western mass media is extraordinarily effective in fostering within the general public, enormous sympathy for beliefs and practices that are at odds with the gospel. For example, abortion, homosexual lifestyle, euthanasia. That’s what he said. The only thing I’d say and there’s no, there’s nothing I can do to say that that is okay, that that is a wild statement to say. Um. And he said it in 2012. And, you know, Pope Francis, whether you liked the last Pope or not, Pope Francis was really, really progressive. And in 2020, progressive for the church. Uh. He said, homosexuals have a right to be part of the family, they’re children of God, and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable because of it. And Pope Francis had like a whole you know, Pope Francis was really progressive. So all I can say is I hope that since 2012, Pope Leo’s views have changed and that he comes in the tradition of Pope Francis’s progressivism, who, as you know he had his Pope mobile converted into a resource for the children of Gaza. So like, I don’t know if, you know Pope Francis, I think they wanted him to die way sooner than he did. Cause they were like, please stop talking about Gaza every night. Um. So I’m hoping, though, that Pope Leo follows in that tradition.
Sharhonda Bossier: I they come from orders with similar but different orientations around social justice, which I think is also telling Pope Leo also has publicly said that he, you know, does not agree with JD Vance on his stance on immigration, etc, etc. And while I think Pope Francis was a progressive by the standards of a pope. Like as recently as last year, he was saying to people that there was too much faggotry in the Vatican. His word, actually. He–
Myles E. Johnson: Who said that?
Sharhonda Bossier: Pope Francis. He literally–
DeRay Mckesson: Not Pope Francis!
Sharhonda Bossier: He did!
DeRay Mckesson: Pope Francis, what was you doing?
Sharhonda Bossier: He said, he said he said we can not have gay men, you know, like trying to train for the priesthood. There’s already too much faggotry in The Vatican. I am not kidding. This is an actual quote.
Myles E. Johnson: So he used the conjugated faggot–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: And made it –try and he used it and put it in his mouth.
Sharhonda Bossier: Look it up. I’m telling you this.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: I am telling you this.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: This is me at my first communion, y’all. I am not kidding. I am Catholic Catholic.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay. Okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: Okay? So–
Myles E. Johnson: Okay yes.
Sharhonda Bossier: This is, he said it like [laughing] so like, yes, right. And in the same way–
DeRay Mckesson: He apologized. [laughter] I’m kidding. Lord, Pope Francis, look at me up here riding for you, and then you [?]–
Sharhonda Bossier: Listen, no he definitely–
DeRay Mckesson: Huh.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes, okay.
DeRay Mckesson: Jesus.
Sharhonda Bossier: And I, I’m sorry, I know this is a family podcast. I’m gonna stop saying the F word, but that’s what he said. And I think it’s important to know in the same way that like people will say that they believe that women deserve the opportunity to fully participate in the church, but also don’t believe that woman deserve to hold the priesthood or to be ministers, et cetera. Right? Like the Pope still saw limits on how gay people and how trans people were to be treated in the church, right? Like he he believed they were to be welcomed and their humanity was to be seen, but like there was he wasn’t gonna marry us. You know, like he wasn’t gonna do that. And so while I think there was like a step forward, I also want us to be realistic about how far forward that step was.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s so interesting. Thank you for letting me know that because I did not know that detail because, you know, I try to be kind so it could always be fuck anybody who. [laugh] It could, it could–
DeRay Mckesson: Pope Francis did support civil unions, Sharhonda, just to put that out there.
Sharhonda Bossier: That is not the sacrament of marriage in Catholicism. I just want to be very clear, right?
DeRay Mckesson: You’re right, you’re right.
Sharhonda Bossier: He’s render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and you can have a civil union. Render unto the Lord what is the Lord’s, and that is a marriage, and he is drawing a distinction between the two.
DeRay Mckesson: Pope Francis, you got me out here looking crazy up here. [?]
Myles E. Johnson: And it does it does make me think about. Hmm. That’s just really interesting, Sharhonda. And it almost makes me even more solid on my, and just that kind of call to have more, just like solid oppositional stances to conservative institutions, and not to offend anybody, specifically not Sharhonda, [?] anybody who’s a part of those conservative institutions. But it just reaffirms to me that there could be a more liberal progressive costume these institutions will put on. But as far as the inner workings really progressing, it’s just not happening. And I think in a moment like this, because what we really need to know is right now, because America is where it’s at and the world is where it’s at, are do you have a clear moral compass that includes queer people, that includes trans people, that includes um uh immigrants, you know, because if you’re shaky on one thing or back and forth on one thing, you could be on other things, too. Like, do you have that? And it just seems like no, these conservative institutions are like no we’re gonna we’re going to protect the empire first. Don’t get that wrong, [?].
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah. The the the thing I’ll say about the Catholic Church’s stance on immigration is that particularly in the United States, immigrants form the bedrock of Catholicism right now. And so, you know, uh the Catholic church is um is really always stands in strong support of immigrants and in strong opposition to this current administration, in particular their actions targeting immigrants. But speaking of immigrants, and refugees, my news this week uh is about the Trump administration um bringing a group of 60 Afrikaners, so white South Africans, to the United States as refugees despite having suspended other refugee resettlement programs. And part of the reason for this is that according to the administration, the South African government, in an attempt to sort of reallocate resources that were hoarded during the apartheid period is engaging in racial discrimination against a class of people based on their race, right? And so they’re like, these people are being persecuted by their government and we should bring them here. As a reminder, Elon Musk is a white South African person. He is an Afrikaner. Um. And so I don’t think we can miss that connection, but I wanted to bring it to the pod um, one, because I think this decision in and of itself is interesting. But two, because I also feel like it is emblematic of what this um this administration has started doing, which is like perverting a law or perverting a policy from its original intent, right? And pretending to only be able to read like the literal interpretation of it and enforcing it or leveraging it in a way that is opposite from its initial intent. And I just thought, you know, referring to wealthy white landowners from a country where they are the racial minority, have hoarded access for generations, where 30 years after the official end of apartheid, you know Black South Africaners have an average of, I think, 5% of the median wealth of like white South Africaners. And I just thought like, wow, like again, here they go you know? So I wanted to bring it to the pod for discussion.
Myles E. Johnson: The term that came to me was global white supremacist solidarity. Um. I think about that even with like Ukraine, like when you study more and more about like Ukraine and see, oh, there’s anti-Blackness there, you know, and we, and, and, and as much as we might have our thoughts about what should happen in Ukraine just as humans, we also specifically, if you’re a Black person, have to know that these places that maybe you’re advocating for are not places that welcome Blackness or they have anti-Black sentiment. And just to connect that to this story. I see all these things as like a kind of as almost like a global circuit board trying to make it so um uh the white supremacist ideology can be connected, and so it could be supported in a way that is not localized, in a way that is not oh that’s just South Africa’s problem, or that’s just Ukraine’s problem or that’s just um Israel’s problem, or that’s just America’s problem. It becomes a global problem. So we’re seeing white supremacist global solidarity happen. And to me, that’s that’s a little bit scary where, oh, you’re doing well in um South Africa and you wanna come to America as a refugee. We’ll create space for that. We’ll we’ll create a pathway for that because it’s no longer, and let’s be real, it never was about doing what’s right, it’s about what can we do to maintain and grow and protect whiteness and the power of whitenes, specifically in a new digital age. And yeah, this this we talk about borderless societies and societies with no borders. It seems like the white supremacists have have planned their own borderless society, where as long as you’re white, there can be support in sharing a power.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, the only thing I have to say to this is that this is only possible when you completely decimate the media landscape in all forms because I do think there’s a base of enough people who will be like, yeah, all this, I think about this with ICE, I think about with certainly Israel and Palestine, I think about. I think about a lot of what Trump is doing like wouldn’t work if Twitter wasn’t a mess, if TikTok, you know, one of the reasons why the TikTok algorithm changed was precisely because of the videos about Palestine and Gaza, Fox News is, you know, a nightmare and he is even if he doesn’t take away the money from places like PBS and NPR like take away all their money. He creates a chilling effect where people are like–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, if I say this, then the FAA might, da-da-da-da-da, or um, I mean, the FTC, Lord, the FAA is also a nightmare because what’s going on in Newark, everybody,? But the FTC um might wage some sort of political moment. And, you know, it’s why I can test when people, I both agree, Myles brought this up earlier, I agree with this idea that there is a group of people who support all of these things. I think that’s true and I won’t dismiss that. I think you can’t get to Trump part two, if not for that. And I think there’s a bigger group of people who don’t know what up from down is, not because they don’t want to know, but because the landscape is literally just a different place. And that’s how I think about this. But I will use that to segue to my news around ICE. I don’t know if you saw, but Ras Baraka, the mayor of Newark and the son of the named Amiri Baraka, the poet, who is also, Ras is running for governor of New Jersey.
Sharhonda Bossier: I thought you were going to say was also on the interludes on the Lauryn Hill Miseducation of Lauryn Hill album.
DeRay Mckesson: Was also on the interludes, on the album. Shout out to Lauryn Hill, classic. And uh he was at the ICE facility that is in Newark alongside other, alongside members of Congress. Newark did not want this ICE facility there, but they were gonna go check out the facility. Though he is not a member of Congress, he was surrounded by members of congress. Members of congress do have the legal right to enter any ICE facility without a, appointment at any time. Many people have exercised this right. They also can enter into other federal facilities, if you remember. A lot of Congress people on the right visited people who were incarcerated as the January 6th crews. So like they, you know, the right has exercised, this right before. So Ras gets arrested and everybody’s like, y’all done arrested the mayor of Newark, which is really wild. When you look at the video, they’re saying that he like shoved people da da da. He did not do that. Um. But but the Department of Homeland Security, which manages ICE, is also now saying that they are considering arresting Representatives Bonnie Watson Coleman, Lamonica McIver, and Rob Menendez. And I bring this up because for a couple reasons. One is that what ICE is doing is wild. We knew ICE was wild. ICE continues to be wild. It is interesting to see the Congress people be like, ICE is wild, you’re like, mm, yeah, okay. ICE has been crazy and we don’t have control of Congress to rein ICE in, which is really the challenge. And Kristi Noem, who’s, I can’t even, I won’t even say out loud that she’s running the Department of Homeland Security, but the person who is in that role, Kristy, is just hanging out in the office. So there’s that. But the second thing that this made me think of is, you know, and I say, you know, I’m a card carrying member of the far left in many ways, obviously from the protests and blah blah blah, but I think about how much we owe to the people who see the problem and say it out loud before it is cool to do. And I think about like that’s not even a shout out to myself, because I didn’t even know what ICE was when the police killed Mike Brown in 2014, but I think about the people who were like abolish ICE really early, they were really clear about it, they were like ICE doesn’t work, don’t scale it back don’t try and make it better don’t, you know, the only thing we don’t organize around ICE, um we focus on the other 19,000, the local police departments, but what I did know about ICE is that ICE and Border Patrol kill, Border Patrol is the largest police department in the United States, larger than any local police agency, uh but Border Patrol kills a fair number of people across the American border every year, and they don’t have to report it because the people are not in America. So we know the shootings happen, and we have some rough numbers, but we don’t know names. So that was something we were working on. But anyway, I think about how little credit the I don’t even want to say just activists, but like the furthest people from the center on the left, like they don’t get the credit for calling out so many things that so many people benefit from. And ICE is one of them that like, you know, I’m watching these Congress people talk about how wild ICE is. And I’m sitting here like, you were the same person saying that like people were crazy for for talking about ICE and, and I hate to even say this, but to see that the Democrats expanded, I you’re like, yo, I don’t even, I can’t defend it. I don’t know what to say you know. Normally I can ride with some stuff, but this doesn’t make sense. But I think about that with housing. I think about that with um voter ID. I think about that with a lot of issues on the left, education, where like it was the far left people that people called crazy, who forced an issue and would not let it go that created the space that people now think as normal. And I just want to shout out all of the people who carried Abolish ICE for so long.
Myles E. Johnson: The other, one of the reasons why the things that happen on the far left don’t gain steam is because Democrats don’t want it to gain steam, like in order to, when you really talk about anything from Bell Hooks to Marxist, you know, like Marxism any of those kind of like “far left” in air quotes, um ideas and theories it is about unraveling um institutions, it is about unraveling um conservative pathways to domination. And when you challenge that the people who benefit from it staying intact are going to be slow to recognize it or going to actively make it so the things that you’re called they’re going to actually make it seem like you’re crazy like the the the split that we see in the Democratic Party or in the left I should say is produced, it’s not natural, it was produced. It was it was people saying, well, you don’t wanna be that kind of left, like maybe you’ll go to, you’ll put a pussy hat on and you’ll talk about some things that are happening in Hollywood and you’ll put a protest sign up at the Met Gala cause that’s gonna do something, but you’ll do that, but you’re not actually going to uh traffic in the ideas or in the people who are gonna who are talking about abolishing things or talking about unraveling things, you know, and asking are these things, are prisons obsolete? You know, abolish abolish ICE, I think it was designed that way. That’s what to me on the daily basis makes me sad is that I don’t have a um a warm rendering of the people who decided to silence people who are on the far left. I think it was on purpose. I think it was to maintain power and to make it so now, I think the idea was Democrats would be able to run as new Republicans. While still seeming progressive, while still taking conservative money. I think that was the game plan. And I think they thought that COVID and Trump were, and all this stuff was such hard hits that no matter what we decided to produce, you gon’ vote for it. And you know, we see that didn’t work. But that’s what makes me sad is that it doesn’t feel like a mistake. It feels like steps towards something.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. I um have spent a lot of time crossing the border myself also like, like, you know, as a teenager, we just like literally would go across the border as a thing. And so I think about the the privilege I have like moving back and forth across the border as a person with a US passport. And I think about the very real terrorism that people are experiencing in this moment in the name of like, quote unquote, “keeping us safe.” And you know I was in DC last week when um you know ICE was targeting delivery drivers. Uh. And I have a friend of mine who is a Black immigrant and a parent. Uh, and knew that this was happening. And when she went to go pick her kid up from school, all of his teachers had lined up to like make sure that he made it to her car safely because they just weren’t sure, you know, and I think in listening to some of this conversation, I think, uh, and and listening, to, to Myles talk about, you know, their perception that what we are doing is creating these intentional wedges on the left to the extent that one exists in the U.S. I think an additional wedge is having the face of immigration in this country be only Latino, right? So that those of us who are Black are also not thinking about the ways in which immigration enforcement and this kind of terrorism also impacts us and people who look like us and share our surnames and our faiths and all of that other stuff. Um. But abolish ICE, you know, to your point, DeRay, I do think felt pretty radical because I think for most of us, and I’ll speak for myself as a millennial here, right. Came to be aware of like immigration enforcement and ICE in the era of like the Patriot Act and like a post 9/11 world, where we were all so willing to give up so much in the name of security, right? And I think we I think we are seeing you know that those folks planted seeds that are now bearing fruit in this way. And I think this is a moment for you know people who are reasonable and rational. And I that will include some political moderates. To think about how we fix our immigration system because I also feel like people don’t understand how hard it is to actually become a U.S. citizen. Like you it’s like, it’s one of the hardest things ever. There’s no clear pathway. Um. And so, yeah, I think I just feel in my personal life, in my professional life, in the city I live in, in the cities that I visit, um just this overall sense of just like, there’s a pall over all of us because of the behavior of ICE and ICE agents. I don’t know if that even made sense, but it’s the set of reflections that are sitting with me.
Myles E. Johnson: Can I ask a question? Do you all think, because you know, I’m a creative thinker, so sometimes I have to be my own bridge between conspiratorial and um and and and likely to happen. So um I was thinking about how many Black people, specifically older Black people mostly older Black people who don’t have birth certificates, right? And when I was looking at this like ICE thing and thinking about–
Sharhonda Bossier: The REAL ID stuff.
Myles E. Johnson: –the real ID, but also I’m so I’m thinking, so that’s true when it comes to travel, but I’m also thinking if certain types of paperwork, certain types of numbers are what makes somebody a U.S. citizen. So aren’t we just a couple of steps away from it being if you don’t have a birth certificate, if you don’t have a social security number here, um uh you’re not a U S citizen. And wouldn’t couldn’t that begin to include some of our elderly Black folks who’ve been here since chattel slavery, but who don’t have certain types. I know I have I say that because I know I have family who don’t have those type of paper works, who have relax and say, I’ll never travel. That’s okay. The Lord let me see tomorrow. I don’t need to see Paris. And they’re cool with it, but they don’t have any of this paperwork. And could those identities be, go from invisible like they are now to criminal? Is that a logical pathway? Was that a little too tinfoil?
Sharhonda Bossier: I think it’s totally logical. I mean, my grandfather has two different spellings of his last name, one on his, on his birth certificate. And then he went to school and the teacher asked him what’s his name. And he said, I’m Norris Beausier. And the teacher wrote it as B-O-S-S I-E-R. His parents were sharecroppers who were not literate. They were like, the teacher must be right. So that’s how we’re going to spell it. And his death certificate has a different spelling of his last name, you know? And so, even just like stuff like that, right? Like one person’s lifetime because of a host of reasons and factors, I think we all are in danger. Even me, right, like I was adopted by my grandparents And so that’s why I have my grandfather’s last name. But like I have a different version of a birth certificate, right? I have a birth certificate that says that I was born in 1984. I have the birth certificate that says my mother was born in 1932. And I have a birth certificate that says I have a mother who was born in 1958. You know what I mean? And like there are there are different things that to your point, like we reissue documents, we lose documents, we make errors on documents. I think most of us are are too sure that we are not going to be targeted in this way. And I think, again, another bridge-building opportunity.
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know if you saw the videos, but the, quote, “ICE agents” are wearing masks. So you don’t who’s arresting who. ICE has recently, since Trump got in office, has increased by 10,000 people. And there are reports that say that these are the Proud Boys, that they are just getting white supremacists like very explicitly to to all these roles, which is why they wearing, covering their faces, and da da da. And it just is sort of like, where does this end? And then the second is that people are already posing as ICE agents because they’re masking and da da they’re already posing as ICE Agents and targeting women. And people are complying with them because they think they’re agents and then they’re getting assaulted. And you’re like, well, this is, there’s no good ending to this. [music break] Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Myles E. Johnson: Now I got to talk about Beyoncé, Beyoncé. Beyonce?
Sharhonda Bossier: It’s sage, it’s sage. It’s sage. Sage us on out.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay. Okay, let me let me, let me go ahead and say the things I have to say before I speak about Beyonce. I love Beyoncé, I think Beyoncé is one of the most genius Black performers we’ve ever seen. I believe that her. Um uh. She has been a performing crystal ball, meaning she’s been able to transfer different eras, different modes of Black womanhood and and artistry to these different eras. And I think we have not seen somebody with her cultural power, um which is how come I always feel compelled to engage with her in this way, because I think her work is, and her performance is smart enough to be engaged in this away. So. I remember back in the day when I was stuck between a Bell Hooks and a Beyonce place and Bell Hooks was critiquing Beyonce and I was maybe the most um excited about a Beyonce project that I’ve ever been. I’m speaking about Lemonade. Because here she was referencing Daughters of the Dust, here she was genre hopping, here she was doing southern, southern gothic womanist uh uh folklore, and it was just it was just really great and terrific. And of course, Bell had her critiques. And one thing that always stuck with me, even if I didn’t or don’t agree with everything Bell Hook says, one thing that always struck with me is the fact that at the end of the day, this is for mass consumption. This is for entertainment. And no matter where you are positioned in that, when you decide to dance with that mass consumption monster. You have performed being a race trader. That is just the function of that. And I think that us as Black people, we all participate in it. We all do that. A Black man does not own Crooked. So again, I don’t mean to say that as if I’m some type of saint, but um I wanted to connect those moments of critique of Beyonce and mass consumption and creating these kind of Black womanist Southern Gothic folklore for mass consumption and that critique that Bell Hooks had. I wanted to bridge that to the Cowboy Carter era because here I am in this Cowboy Carter era and kind of released Beyonce to saying, well, you know what, maybe she learned from the Black Panther stuff and the womanist stuff. And she’s like, listen, I’m going to give y’all some Afro beats. I’m going to give you all some affirmations, some spiritual stuff that I like to do, but I’m not necessarily going to evoke revolutionary ideas through my performance while I’m also marrying it to commercial consumption. So even thinking about her Black Panther performance that was one of my favorite performances of her at the Super Bowl, me thinking about what does it mean for a Black woman with so much power to create a spectacle out of real Black revolutionary esthetic and work. What does that mean? And and and I think we all and so many artists try to play with that and try to see what they can do and and try to find their way. And I kind of thought that’s what Beyoncé was doing. But I have to be really honest with y’all. As I was watching the Cowboy Carter um uh video footage, I was disturbed. I was disturbed at the idea that Beyoncé says revolution in one of her songs and she uses Gil Scott-Heron’s the revolution won’t be televised. And it’s not just her use of it. It’s that by the conclusion of the whole show, it collapses into a Levi’s commercial. It collapses into a Brown Liquor commercial. And I think silence is so useful. I think just showing something is so useful. I think here in 2025, and what we’re facing right now, and what’s going on right now and what the state of the Black community is right now um at large, I’m not just talking about the liberal elites that I love so much. I’m talking about all Black people. That feels like a really stupid thing to do. It really feels unfair to see somebody with so much power be able to use revolutionary talk, revolutionary ideas, the idea that um our revolution will happen A, on the inside, will A, not happen with the gaze of white surveillance, and then also will not be in assistance to commercial gain. So even in the actual poem, he goes on to talk about, it won’t be for Colgate, it won’t come on commercials. He’ll say all that stuff. And I just, I just don’t understand what it means for a person with so much power and influence and talent as Beyoncé. And also, to me, what seems like a real love for Black people and the Black community, I don’t understand what it means to utilize something that is so sacred and and pervert it and and and and empty it and flatten it. And to me that is the thing that feels the most disrespectful to me at all times. It’s not, if a pop star uses revolutionary talk or an outfit, it’s the fact that once you bring it once you bring Gil Scott-Heron to Levi’s, it just becomes another voice and another color that Levi’s can use in order to recreate its own profit. Once you bring Black Panther costumes to the Super Bowl field, it just becomes Halloween costumes and spectacle, and it flattens the individuality and the self-determination that Black Panthers wanted to do. And and, yeah, I think maybe because we’re in the post-Met Gala world, because we are in this world where I feel like so many um Black superstars are just unraveling in front of us, like even Doechii, who I love, I’m seeing that she’s just kind of just publicly unraveling. Just, it seems like nothing’s sticking, but I also think it’s because um our waters aren’t deep enough. Our honey is not sticky enough. Our our uh rhetoric and ideas around revolution are not solid enough, and I think it is creating these really weird, minstrally collages of what we think revolution should be, as long as Colgate says it’s okay. As long as Levi says it’s okay and it loses its teeth and it feels disrespectful and these are the times where I wish silence wasn’t the medium of Beyoncé, but articulation was. What say you?
Sharhonda Bossier: That was quite a lot. Uh there was like that was that felt like a text in so many places to like um to plug in. I think, I feel like you said a lot that you know I agree with chiefly the point around like once you’ve reached a certain point, you almost inevitably are either a race or a class traitor. Right? I think that’s just inherent. Like you don’t become a billionaire, right? Um. Without without those things. Right. Um. Or having stepped on a couple of people to get there. Let’s just say that, right? I think what is interesting and I think what a lot of people have wrestled with particularly around Cowboy Carter is um the claims around this being about a reclaiming of the images and imagery of Americana, right. And I think also bumping up against the limitations of that, right, like you can only do so much with blonde hair, a cowboy hat and an American flag if you are still not white, you know? Um. And honestly for me, the first moment I felt, I enjoy Beyonce for who she is, right? Like she’s going to put on a show, she’s a consummate performer, she’s gonna give me some stuff to you know sing along to. I’m a feel like a baddie as I’m getting ready to go out if I’m playing Beyonce while I’m doing my makeup, right. I don’t necessarily engage with her in the way that I think a lot of people do as like the sort of cultural bellwether or touchstone. But I will say that a challenge that I had with Beyonce recently was actually around Renaissance. And actually around what felt like the co-opting of queer culture and ballroom culture, right? Um. And I think, like I had a great time at the show, right, like for real, for real a great time, and I also am like, you know, Beyonce had been really quiet on gay and queer rights for a long time, even knowing like, you know the composition of her fan base, right. And then it’s like, then she shows up. It’s kind of like the Pope and his Blackness, right? Like we get a little glimmer of it.
Myles E. Johnson: Obama too.
Sharhonda Bossier: And then we’re like, Obama too. Right, we’re like–
Myles E. Johnson: Obama [?]. Everybody was like–
Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: I don’t know about no gays.
Sharhonda Bossier: Exactly right.
Myles E. Johnson: Y’all can [?] behind me, but I don’ know about that right now. Bush is in office.
Sharhonda Bossier: And I think we just have to, I think this is also you know a point I was trying to make last week about Black people attending the Met Gala, right, which is like, sometimes the shit is just entertainment. And like, that’s it. And I think the the clearer we can be on that, and the more that we can stop trying to hang all of our hopes and all of our expectations around people’s politic, because of the art that they create, I think the less disappointed we will all be. Um, and to your point of being stuck between like a Bell Hooks and, and, and a Beyonce, it’s like, Beyonce has never told you she wanted to be your cultural or pop culture Bell Hooks. She’s never said that, right? She’s like I’m here. I make art. I do my thing. I do a thing that speaks to me in this moment. And then I move on. And I, I think that, you know, part of celebrity culture in this moment is about us projecting onto people, what we want from them. And I think Beyonce has demonstrated that like she didn’t ask to take on that responsibility and she doesn’t want it.
Myles E. Johnson: Sister Sharhonda.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes, yes.
Myles E. Johnson: I would normally.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: I would normally because I was there when it came to Renaissance. I said, you know what, I hear you, B. You said, listen, I gave you this I gave you this uh thing with my husband. I give you all this imagery, pro-Black. I’m Renaissance. I’m gay. I’m Black. There’s white dancers here. There’s gay dancers. It’s new. I’m updated. It’s whatever. I think it’s something, I do think it is something different when you decide to put Gil Scott-Heron in your world tour today in 2025. I think, it’s a different thing. And I do believe. And just this one thing around entertainment. I and the only reason I’m saying this now, because this is about the second or third time I heard you say it, and I do deeply disagree with that, I think that entertainment has been the medium of so much liberation, so much work, so much that has been the medium of Black folks to not just escape certain types of class positions, but then also to communicate other things to other Black people, down to the Negro spiritual, down to the gospel, down to sounds of Blackness, talking about optimistic, down to uh uh Beyoncé telling us that she runs the world or the things that she said during Formation and the images that she created during Formation, I think that there is nothing more political in America than entertainment. I think, that that is baseball, apple pie, entertainment, and I think any time you engage with that, you are in a fully-fledged, 100% political uh uh relationship, and there’s no getting around with it. You cannot be a Black person and go to the Met Gala and that not be political. You can pretend it’s not. But it is, and you cannot be a Black person and go to LA and play Gil Scott-Heron and say, but it’s not political, I’m just having fun.
Sharhonda Bossier: I don’t disagree with you about the impact of entertainment, right? I’m saying I think we have to acknowledge that that lane has been co-opted, right. That, I think is what I’m saying, I’m think we have to acknowledge it’s been bought and sponsored, right, that’s more the point. So thank you for pushing me on that, but I think that’s more the point that I’m trying to make, which is like, I think we have to start saying to ourselves, like, we have to start compartmentalizing for ourselves and figure out what that new lane is. Because, you know, one of the reasons I went to college, quite honestly, was because I wanted to be Clair Huxtable. Like, that is, that’s what I wanted. And I only saw Clair Huxtable because of the Cosby show, right? Like, I didn’t have professional Black women in my immediate circle or in my immediate world around me. And so I held on to that, you now? So I hear you on the, like, power of those images and the power of those stories and the power of those characters. But I am saying, I also recognize that to your point, when it’s gonna be sponsored by Levi’s, there are limitations. And so I’ve got to start looking somewhere else so that I am not disappointing myself.
Myles E. Johnson: So I guess my final question to you and DeRay, if you want to answer, chile. But like I guess like my final like question is then what should we consider the enlightened artist who understands and uses the colors of Blackness, the colors of esthetic radicalism, like Gil Scott-Heron produced, the words, all these different things to evoke something just for their own commercial gain. What do we call an artist who does that? Not just Beyoncé, I’m talking about any artist who says, you know what? I’m not just gonna sit here and dance and be cute. I’m not gonna just be, let’s say Cardi B or Meg Thee Stallion, who are great and they’re just here for entertainment. I’m actually going to use your grief, use your history in order to entice you for my own commercial gaining and for the own recreation of my own stardom and profit. What do you call a person like that? What do, or what do you, what do you call that? Is what I, was what I’m thinking.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think those people are like Mary and sinners, right? I think you–
Myles E. Johnson: We call them Mary’s.
Sharhonda Bossier: I think you invite them in and they bring the other bad spirits with them. I think they’re Trojan horses.
DeRay Mckesson: So Malcolm said, Malcolm says, show me in the white community where a trumpet player is a leader. He said, they are just puppets. Um. You know, this makes me, I echo, I love the conversation you two just had that um has pushed me in a lot of ways. I will say this makes me think of reconstruction. And I know we’ve talked about this at some point on the pod, because I’ve obviously been on the pod since the beginning. So I know it’s something we’ve talked about, but uh you know, I think reconstruction to me is such a brilliant moment of study because there’s arguably no time in American history where Black people were politically more represented, were had more money, were economically strong, like had all the things. And one day white people woke up and said enough and took it all back. And we have not had the political power, the economic stability, any of that stuff since the end of Reconstruction. And you know, one of the things that happens when you get Black wealth and Black power, is there is a set of people who believe that that money and that whatever will be a salve against white supremacy with a capital W and a capital S. And if there’s anybody in this moment who people should be looking at like, yeah, say what you will about that money you got. Trump will come in and ICE will be at Beyonce’s door. Like he does not care. I think, you know, like it. I think that celebrity and economic power will not save people that celebrity and economic might’ve saved before. I think that we are at the fever pitch of white supremacy in this political moment. And I am worried about our entertainers and other people who, you either get the Saquon’s cozying up to Trump, or you just get people who are like, I don’t do politics. And I think the cost of this in this moment is gonna be really deep. I hear Myles, you seem to be saying that like Beyonce is doing politics by putting Gil Scott-Heron in the work. That that is–
Myles E. Johnson: Well no, well, I was gonna say, I hear everything you’re saying about the entertainment piece and stuff like that, and I follow that, but I’m like, well, didn’t didn’t Vice President Harris tap her on her shoulder? Didn’t she sing at two inaugurations? As did Meg Thee Stallion. So I think my thing is that the separation from entertainment and politics, even if I don’t really believe it, it will be easier for me to say like, you know what? I’m gonna Dolly Parton this thing out and you’ll you’ll kind of get where my politics are based off of maybe some things I participate in, but I don’t get the wielding of it. I don’t get the even though I’m going to be apolitical, I’m still going to use certain things to uh entice you. And then also, when it was time to use your power for something political, you did it, and you gave it to the Democratic party, and and and then everything becomes that because you not saying free Gaza becomes something because you will say vote for this person. So it’s not like you’re apolitical.
DeRay Mckesson: But what do you say to the people who though are like, I just don’t know enough. What do you say, like I could see, clearly I’m not talking to Beyonce, I don’t have Beyonce’s number, so I’m saying this in jest. But like I could see Beyonce saying, like I don’t know enough about Palestine and Israel to like make a declared statement, but of the two choices, Trump and Kamala, like Trump is crazy and I’m, you know, like I’m supporting her. That feels like a legitimate position that I think a lot of, that feels like a legitimate calculus that I think a lot of people are making who are entertainers.
Myles E. Johnson: That makes sense to me. I think my push would be at this point where we are in 2025 with this fever pitch. I don’t think we’re at the fever pitch, I think it’s really fricking hot, but I actually think it could get hotter. So I don’t think we are at that fever pitch of it. I think that if you have money, if you have a dollar, if you’ve got a space to sit down and read, if you got access to thriftbooks.com, if you got access to a library while you can, go read about it. Because if you have that much money to have the gift of solitude, the gift of reflection, the gift of conversation, there’s no artist, even if I don’t really like you, I’m not the hugest, I’m 34 now, like I’m not the hugest Megan Thee Stallion, Cardi B person. If somebody said, hey, Cardie B wants to say something and this has happened to me before, if an artist says, hey I want to understand something because I want talk about it, that’s what you should do because if you have the whole world looking at you. You will still take Palestinian money, right? You would still take this global economy and use it to your advantage to help yourself, right, so why not educate yourself too, specifically when you’re so resourced? And again, not just talking about Beyonce, talking about anybody who got a lot of money.
DeRay Mckesson: Shahonda, do you do you buy that? I’m trying to understand like, cause I can see people, and Myles, thank you for that. I can see people both saying I don’t understand the issue well enough to talk about it. It feels really complicated. And the like, to to like to what end do I, like how many of the things do I need to make statements on? Is it the police? Is it healthcare? Is it like sort of where do I? Cause that’s what I actually think people are contending with in the background. I’m not excusing it. I do think that is what people are saying.
Sharhonda Bossier: I do hear you, DeRay, on the, like, I don’t know enough, which does feel like a little bit of a cop out because if people want to know something, they have the resources to find out about it, right? And to, like ask people to to I just think that people are making a different calculation around what is at risk for them if they were to say something. And they are deciding that they want to protect whatever it is they have and that whatever that other thing is and like you know, support for Kamala was pretty middle of the road. You know what I mean? And I think it’s pretty widely understood that in this country, you have two options when it comes to a president and like you pick one. And like for Beyonce, the support of Kamala is like an extension of her brand as like rah, rah Black woman, right? So that felt like logical and in keeping with like the public brand and persona that she has created and curated. Um. I think you know, I think what I’m wrestling with is like, what do we do when I think we are so wanting for public intellectuals in this moment and the only ones we seem to have to turn to are people who are celebrities, right?
DeRay Mckesson: Ding, ding, ding.
Sharhonda Bossier: And that is–
DeRay Mckesson: Ding, Ding, Ding. I’m gonna give you that.
Sharhonda Bossier: And that’s what I am thinking about right now.
Myles E. Johnson: And also, it’s a Black imagination problem, right? Because these are also, even if we don’t want Beyonce to go ahead and debate or whatever, I don’t think I’m suggesting that. But I do want to say that there is some type of, there’s a it to me feels more like an imagination lapse, because I’m like, um the right seems to be able to figure out to Barstool productions and all these different things. Like why is that not the way that we think about things?
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, and in LA, last thing I’ll say is, you know we’ve had people with connections here create community salon spaces, right? Where like even if they aren’t the people who are doing the talking or the teaching themselves, they are leveraging their celebrity, their access, their name recognition to pull people together. And I think that I think that is a missed opportunity. [music break]
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. And don’t forget to follow us at Pod Save the People and Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we will see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Charlotte Landes, executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors, Myles E. Johnson and Sharhonda Bossier. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
