A deep dive into the self harm occurring within a Virginia Supermax prison, Putin’s efforts to market Russia to Africans, and the declining reputation of the Black  church.

 

News

Prisoners Intentionally Burned Themselves at Troubled Virginia Supermax

The Black Church is Cooked

Joe Biden Pardons His Son Hunter

Inside the Effort to Market Russia and Putin To Africans

Cynthia Erivo on Bringing Her Black Queer Identity to ‘Wicked’: ‘It’s a Love Letter to Everyone Who Feels Different’

 

Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

[AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, De’Ara, Miles and Kaya talking about the news that you don’t know with regard to race and justice over the past week, news that you might not have heard. And we obviously talk about the election. Don’t forget to follow us at @PodSavethePeople on Instagram. Here we go. [music break]

 

De’Ara Balenger: Family. Welcome to another episode of Pod Save the People. I’m De’Ara Balenger. You can find me at @dearabalenger on Instagram. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m Myles E. Johnson. You can find me on Instagram at @pharaohrapture. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh my gosh. Where am I? I’m Kaya Henderson. I used to be at @HendersonKaya on Twitter, and now I’m just out here roaming around. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I’m DeRay at @deray on Twitter and on Blue Sky and @IamDeRay on Instagram. Ya’ll the digital spaces are getting shakier and shakier.

 

Kaya Henderson: Mm mm.

 

De’Ara Balenger: Well, that’s not all that shaky DeRay.

 

Kaya Henderson: Wait, before we get to shaky, can I just–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yes. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Give a can I give a positive shout out? I want to start us on a. I mean, we’re coming off of Thanksgiving. So much to be thankful for, um but I last weekend was at the Black male educators convening in Philadelphia. 1200 African-American male educators and people who love and support them in the house. And there was so much love for Pod Save the People. As I walked through the hallways, all of those brothers and sisters were like, hey, I listen to the podcast. Oh my gosh, I love the podcast. You’ve been off the podcast. Tell Myles hi! Hey, hey DeAra hey DeRay. It was just so much love in that space for us. And it reminded me, first of all, that people listen because I usually just think, oh yeah, every Monday morning I get to chitchat with my friends and I forget that there are lots of people actually listening to us. Um. But it reminded me of how important this conversation is to our community, to the people who are educating our young people. So I want y’all to share that warm, fuzzy feeling with me this morning. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Aw thanks. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Before we get started. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yes. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: And you know what Kaya? I’m a keep it going, because the last time I was in Philadelphia, it was working on Kamala Harris’s campaign. Oh boy. Um but–

 

Kaya Henderson: There are other things happening in Philly. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But but I first of all, I love Philadelphia. And I stayed at a hotel called Yowie Hotel. Myles, I’m going to take you there. It’s owned by a sister named Shannon Maldonado. And it is a beautiful, beautifully designed and curated space. And so the trauma that was Philly election night for me, at least I was in a very beautiful place that was curated and done up by a Black woman. So shout out to Shannon. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Oh it was designed by a Black woman?

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yes. Yes!

 

Myles E. Johnson: Ah that’s so cool. That’s so–

 

De’Ara Balenger: So shout out to Shannon. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Y’all Philly is hot. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: [?] I love–

 

Kaya Henderson: Don’t sleep on Philly.

 

De’Ara Balenger: I love Philly and it’s my favorite place to run. Um. Okay, so speaking of all that Black excellence, let’s move to Kendrick and Drake. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh. Yes. [laughter]

 

DeRay Mckesson: That laugh De’Ara. Myles is our is our resident culture um expert. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Well and I–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Myles. Oh sorry. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Myles, break it. Please. Well, I just I want to set it up because essentially, you know, there’s also I feel like my entry point to this is still I’m still having a hard time with Super Bowl in New Orleans and Kendrick performing over like that’s still where I am with Kendrick Lamar. Also Kendrick Lamar just had an album drop. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Mm hmm. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Um. And last week, Drake launched this legal action against Universal Music, accusing the label and Kendrick Lamar of sort of like boosting the streams of Not like us. So that paperwork has been filed. He is alleging illegal this illegal scheme involving bots, payola. I love the word payola. You know why I love it? From Dreamgirls when they were accusing Jamie, the Jamie Foxx character of payola in Dreamgirls. I love when Black people say words. It’s just the best thing ever. Um. But that’s what I got. So, Myles, what is your perspective on this? Ugh.

 

Myles E. Johnson: My my immediate perspective is that Drake is um a loser. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Oh. [laugh]

 

Myles E. Johnson: Um but like, now, like the loser in this is like deepening as uh, as things are going on. So what’s really interesting is you’re right, De’Ara. Some people are really upset about um Kendrick Lamar performing at Louisiana. Most of those people are Louisiana rappers Lil Wayne, people like that. But first of all, it’s the 11th time that the Super Bowl has been in Louisiana. So there were other times that that could have happened where it would have been more appropriate to maybe center Little Wayne’s um stardom and then and then um to put that on top of that, you know, the Super Bowl is about making money. They sell everything. It’s a big old commercial. So nobody specifically in rap has captured this kind of mass um attention then Kendrick Lamar and Drake, because of this beef, like, where’s the last time we really, we don’t do it for awards shows anymore. We don’t do it for um performances. We really rarely come together as a as a community around um entertainment and music events anymore. So it was iconic and it was a good business decision to do. The thing about Drake suing is crazy. The thing about Drake suing is wild because not only is he just like loser-y, like, you know, like, oh my God. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Totally. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: He he did payola. He did all these different things or whatever, but I don’t know what Drake is sipping, but you know how like sometimes you have a fine friend and then they don’t understand how come they got broken up with, and it was like that man was not with you because of your personality. That man was with you because of your body. That man was with you because of your sex appeal. I’m like, these these numbers were not because of you were so talented and gifted sir. There were some white men who put their tokens behind you and said this this Black jewish man right here. 

 

Kaya Henderson: It took me a minute, but I am there. I’m fully there.

 

Myles E. Johnson: You know, I’m like going to break it down to to to–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Myles has got the setup of setups for these things. [laughter]

 

Myles E. Johnson: Oh I mean, I try to I was trying to break it down to, like, myself. I was like, No, like Drake, you you’re automatically putting the light on you because we know that you benefited from these same things. We know that you have participated in payola, in streaming in all the ways you can. 

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s how you know what to sue about. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Inflate things. And that’s how you know what to sue about. And then just the last thing that I’ll say about it, which is like, obviously this is culture, so it feels cultural, but it’s just so the opposite way that you handle losing a rap battle. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Exactly! 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Like, being litigious–

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh my gosh. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –is not the way that you do it. 

 

Kaya Henderson: No exactly. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I’m like, Drake, if there’s any place that you don’t want a liberal elite, you do not want to be litigious with the person from Cali who’s rapping you and say, you know what? I don’t like how this went. I’m going to sue. No. But that’s what he did so. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh Myles. Oh Myles. I am so–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Oh. He might have a political future because he seems like he fits in um in other spaces. [laugh]

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m so I am so with you. I was like, mm do you understand the origins of rap? The origins of rap are about people beefing with each other. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And yo come back is a rap song Drake. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

Kaya Henderson: But since you don’t write your own raps and you are not really as talented as this other brother is, you going to sue? That’s like calling the principal on somebody, are you kidding me? What in the world. I mean what I mean laid out [?] first of all, um that little Kendrick album is hot to death. I sat in my hotel room and listened to the whole thing in one clip. Oh my gosh, I deserve it all. That’s my new theme song for the next 12 months friends. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I deserve it all. 

 

Kaya Henderson: I deserve it all. Um. And then to see this lawsuit drop, I lit– I was like, Drake, you not doing yourself no favors out here boo. There is nobody in the world who is going to support this. Are you kidding me? But you’re right, Myles. You are absolutely right. You know this stuff because this is how you got put on. And I don’t, the streets I the streets cannot be for this, right? I’m not in the streets no more. I’m a Auntie. But the streets can’t be for this. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Can’t be. And just the last thing that about the um for me about the Kendrick Lamar album because I didn’t get to touch of that, that album is brilliant. I think that he captured, what’s interesting is like um Kendrick Lamar usually infuses jazz and funk and I think there is a automatic, reflective and and and and retrospective feeling in Kendrick Lamar’s music because he takes things from Gil Scott-Heron and poetry and jazz and funk, and he kind of combines that. This album is a breakthrough. So there’s some jams on it that are hard, but it feels paranoid, it feels um conspiratorial, it feels um he’s like the even the sounds that are like very, like glitchy. It feels like this moment. And I’m like, he might be a prophet. I think God told him, Negros need this. Mike Tyson got beat up. Mike Tyson got beat up. Kamala–

 

Kaya Henderson: Mike Tyson got. Wait, wait. Mike Tyson didn’t get beat up. Mike Tyson earned himself $20 million [?]–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Mike Tyson got paid. But the meme of Kamala and Mike Tyson was– 

 

De’Ara Balenger: [laughing] Myles shaking his head like that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: That was funny. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: We didn’t need that–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Did Drake–

 

Myles E. Johnson: –image of Mike Tyson getting hit by no young man right after Kamala lost. That’s what all I’m saying. 

 

Kaya Henderson: That could be. But the brother needed some cash and here was a way to make it. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Oh we need a goFund me for Mike. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: [laugh] I will say the other thing about the Drake lawsuit is, you know, my best friend Trey. So the moment it drops, he goes, you suing for this? You’re not suing because he called you a pedophile? Like, if you going to sue for something, sue for, you know, because he’s making some claims that have actually ruined your career, not because people are listening to just a diss track. And then what does Drake do? He turns around and sues for defamation. And you’re like, also, don’t do that actually don’t like that you look nuts, especially when you’ve made all these claims about Kendrick. It’s not like your hands are clean in this either. You talked about his kid not being his his manager doing all this other crazy stuff. Now, what I what I do love too, is that Kendrick and team have tapped into the culture moment because all the brands tweeting out and putting up billboards for mustaaaard.

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh yes. Heinz. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Is hilarious. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Brilliant. Brilliant.

 

DeRay Mckesson: It’s like you can’t you can’t buy that. 

 

Kaya Henderson: That’s right. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: No he didn’t buy that. That’s not payola. That’s just cultural currency. And he got that. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I think the other thing that that it has done I don’t know about you all because I have I you know, I work out and run a lot and a lot of my playlists have Drake Drake songs because there are a lot of bops. But I find myself skipping any time a Drake, it’s almost like it’s starting to be in the same sort of music vault that I don’t go to anymore. Along with some other artists that I will not name. But it’s like that’s [laugh] that’s what has happened to me sort of like psychologically, like a Drake song will come on and I’ll be like, ooh I can’t. Mm mm. And I press skip. So it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting thing. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: You have to think about those consultants that are around Drake. I think there’s just such a through line with Drake as like cultural president for of hip hop for so long. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: But you have to look at the peop– and then um, and and and how we talk about the presidency and the consultants around them. You know, these superstars have the same consultants, the same people who are supposed to have their ear to the streets and be able to do things. And he it’s so interesting because in front of our eyes, Drake went from trendy to archaic because he actually is representing a type of hip hop that is that is gone. Even um Kendrick Lamar releasing a song called The Party is Over. The Diddy arrest. It seems like the kind of hip hop that Drake has rolled on has just totally died. And it’s like nobody told Drake. So he’s still bling bling I can take you. I can take your ho and he’s still pouring Cristal. But you’re like um, you know, you know, you know, the common people seem like that seem like they were ready to revolt. So maybe we shouldn’t be as flashy anymore. But Drake didn’t get that memo. Maybe um he didn’t get the mail in Canada or something. 

 

Kaya Henderson: It’s a little bit like the Democratic Party being out of touch with where the people are, ouch. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That’s the throughline I was trying to that was the throughline–

 

Kaya Henderson: Ouch. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I was trying to– 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Come on and make the connection come on and make the connection. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: That was the through line I was creating [?].

 

DeRay Mckesson: Everybody, connection made. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Mmm. I’m just saying it for the people who are a little slow like me that’s all.

 

De’Ara Balenger: Well, that’s the perfect time to transition to Hunter Biden being pardoned by his daddy. Okay. So my– 

 

Kaya Henderson: I am deeply interested in your take on this. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Well my my take is this. It is its ups– it is upsetting. It is upsetting. It’s upsetting because this is not. This man is not Leonard Peltier. He’s not Assata Shakur. People who are still either incarcerated or on an FBI most wanted list. This is somebody who did crack, had a gun, threw it in a dumpster. And then like it is, [laugh] it’s like sort of the craziest crackish crimes that he is guilty of. And now and also this this this sort of behavior and prosecution. And, you know, obviously setting aside like addiction politics and I get that part of it. But it’s almost it certainly didn’t help Joe Biden’s campaign, this whole trial that went on for weeks and weeks. He was convicted and now he’s being pardoned. And I just feel like, one, that the Democrats are sort of laying the groundwork for what Trump will do around pardoning all kinds of tomfoolery. And and two, it’s like, what kind of signal are you sending just in terms of your legacy? Because he did these crimes, he did them. It’s not you know, it wasn’t he wasn’t over sentenced. He wasn’t over prosecuted. He this for me, a pardon is something that happens if, one, the government, the government is somehow at fault for what the prosecution was. And there’s evidence to show that you weren’t that you hadn’t committed the crimes that you were accused of. It’s to me the pardoning process is never just like if the pardoning process is this, it is sort of dictatorial. It is. So we’re going to you did the crime. But okay, whatever. We’re going to let you. We’re going to let you go. No worries. I don’t know. That’s that’s I’m all over the place. But that that’s sort of where where I’m at with it. [laughter]

 

Myles E. Johnson: If you if you can, because it’s– 

 

Kaya Henderson: I, go ahead Myles.

 

Myles E. Johnson: This is not, this is not usually a visual podcast. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Go ahead. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Me and Auntie Kaya literally were, one was Serena and I was Venus I guess. And we were just we were just bobbing our eyes like, who going to take it? Who going to take it? Who going to take it? Who going to take it? The the thing is, like, you know. This is something a corrupt government would do. [laugh] And I think you have to see the so my thing and like I was probably consuming too much um, maybe a little bit too much information around certain things. But my whole thing is I don’t ever believe in kind of the fantasy I’ve been seeing people have in interviews around um people. A lot of people who vote for Trump like awakening. I like you know, and I think that the red pilled idea is good. Like the you are red pilled you cannot go back. The the the metaphor with the matrix is true. Once you have been successfully um once your mind has successfully successfully bended in the way that you that you vote for Trump. I’m not convinced that a significant enough people would change their minds on that. I’m just not. What I am convinced of is that enough people who do not vote, who feel totally um abandoned by the system can be motivated to vote. But now you have a situation like this where it’s like we know Trump’s going to do something dirty. We already know he’s he or he told us, he said, you know what? If your uncle or your meemaw is in jail because they came and stormed that capital, I’m getting meemaw out. And Christmas 2025, he’s going to be out. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Yes. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And we said and people say that is corrupt. But then what Biden does is says, I’m not going to do that. I’m totally going to let the system happen. It doesn’t matter if it’s my own son because I’m a Democrat president who is old school and and has dignity and goes by the rules. I’m not going to do that because I’m so different than Trump. And then you do the same thing but with a letter and a press release. So I think that is like the that’s the that’s the basis of the confusion for a lot of people. And um not even confusion. That’s the basis of the depression of a lot of people, a lot of people who are not getting up to go do anything. And I wish that, you know, I don’t believe nobody should be in in jail for doing a little crack. I don’t think nobody should be in jail for have for having a bad for having a bad day. You already know, so I already say free, free, free, free, free Hunter all day. And let Hunter be out because you ain’t never been through something? You know what that family’s been through? You would go do some a little crack too, see if it helped. But I [laugh] but I also think–

 

DeRay Mckesson: Oh Myles. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: This couldn’t be paired. And in all seriousness, I think like in my head, I’m thinking this couldn’t be paired with something that is also communual? Like, we couldn’t do this and release people who um uh have weed sentences? And I know he could eventually do that, but I’m like, why even give people the the the energy to make this an independent thing, like do it at the same time. So in order to talk about this story, you have to talk about this too. You not even giving us anything to talk about Biden, you just what? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: But but also, Myles, this this happened over Thanksgiving, right? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: So the Biden family’s at the Thanksgiving table. Like this. There’s so many things to talk about. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: This this even this–

 

Kaya Henderson: Wait wait wait. Can I let me–

 

De’Ara Balenger: So many things to talk [?]–

 

Kaya Henderson: Can I get in? Can I get in? Can I get in? 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Please, please. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Okay. So first of all, um let me be very clear. If I was the president, I would pardon my child, period, the end. It ain’t no two ways about it, especially when Mr. Trump is about to let all of these legitimate criminals who stormed the Capitol out of jail. He’s going to let them all out of jail. He’s going to pardon them. The least I’m a do is take care of my baby who has a little crack problem. Um A, number one.

 

De’Ara Balenger: And a tax evasion problem. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Oh okay. Da da da.

 

De’Ara Balenger: A major tax evasion problem. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Guess what? Guess what? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: A little crack problem is crazy. 

 

Kaya Henderson: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Guess what? Mr. Trump just appointed Jared Kushner’s father to something or another who went to jail for tax evasion and a bunch of other things. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: And this–

 

Kaya Henderson: I’m not saying–

 

De’Ara Balenger: But this is also the same camp. These are the same Democratic campaigns that will not let Black folks who have tax liens pass vet. 

 

Kaya Henderson: So what here’s what I’m saying to you. I think that Democrats have to rethink their strategies, right? Like you can’t be right and be right and lose and be right and whatever. You got to do some things differently. And so, number one, as a parent, I would I would pardon my my son. Now, what I wouldn’t have said is I’m a let the thing play itself out or blah, blah, blah, because I would have always had this ace in my pocket and I would have just been quiet with it. Let the thing play out. And then pardon my son, sorry, that’s just what I would do. A, number one. B, number two, I think Myles is absolutely right in that if you were going to pardon, you could have made this an issue. You could have coupled this with something that you could win on. Right. I don’t think it’s going to tarnish his legacy. People are going to talk about it and as well as a number of other things. But, I mean, this to me is another one of those times where we’re like, well, he should do the right thing. This dude don’t have nothing to lose. It’s over. He’s doing, I would be much more radical. I would be issuing an executive order for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day between now and January 20th. I would try to push everything that I possibly could. I’m interested in his whole making Ozempic and weight loss drugs um coverable by Medicaid. I think Medicaid and Medicare. I think that that has tremendous health implications for 100 million people who could use those drugs, who don’t have access to those drugs. And we’ll see because it requires a 60 day comment period whether or not Mr. Trump holds that when a lot of Mr. Trump’s supporters are going to need those medicines and the rest of the insurance industry will follow Medicaid and Medicare, I I think that it is important for him to be doing as much as he possibly can. This one is a gimme like everybody is going to. I mean, the the people that Mr. Trump are putting up who have all kinds of questionable I mean, he’s not pardoning Hunter Biden so that Hunter Biden could be the next ambassador to France or the head of the FBI. He’s letting his baby out of jail. And um I think that that is I don’t think that that’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. And I think we’re about to get we are about to be in super crazydom. And this is going to pale in comparison. We’re not even going to talk about this in six months when the chaos and mayhem is raining down all over us. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, the only thing I’ll add is, you know, this is where I think the disconnect between the consultant class and people in on their couches is, is that I do think there’s like a political wisdom that is playing by this rule book and trying to figure out what the message on MSNBC is going to be and what the pundits are going to say. And I think if that is the audience you’re catering to, a lot of the Biden decisions make total sense to me. The challenge is that that’s just not the world we’re in. The MSNBC does not control the news cycle anymore. CNN does not control the news cycle anymore like the Internet does or, you know, it’s people in their homes. And that means you actually have to talk to people in a way they understand. Because if Biden had said, hey, Trump has made it really clear he is going to attack my family when he gets in office. He said it in public. He said it in private. He said it again and again. That Kash, the guy that he’s going to put in the FBI, has said publicly, I’m going to go after everybody who supported him, including the family, he said it. So Biden could say, you know what? I didn’t want to pardon him. It was I think he he pleaded he pled guilty. It wasn’t even like Hunter. They didn’t have, Hunter pled guilty. Biden could say, my son pled guilty. And I am ashamed that he did those things. And I hope that he grows and I’m pardoning him so that he does not become a pawn of the Trump administration. I think people on their couches would be like, that makes sense to me. Now, MSNBC, I don’t know what they’d say, but I but I do think that people on their couches would be like, I get it because that is that Trump is crazy. So that’s like one thing. The second thing I’d say is that I what the left, I think, does not get and Myles I think your read is completely right. I think we not going to get those Trump people, but there are a lot of people on our side who are choosing not to participate because they’re like the whole thing’s screwed. Is that I think that the left does not get that like the right people are values voters and they are sort of like values with a V, voters. So like you got to leave it to values. The right people are power voters and they said values be damned. They sort of are like, just make sure our person wins. And in talking to the two groups is really different. And I feel like sometimes the left is trying to play to the base of the right. That’s that’s how I feel about Liz Cheney. I get the the need to say like, you know, we built a big tent and da da da. But we know that our values and lenses have not aligned in the past. It’s a values things. But if you are trying to just have raw power, the Liz Cheney makes total sense. But that doesn’t animate our base. That makes people think that we’re no better than the other side. And that to me, is where I think that the disconnect comes in. It’s like what Myles said um in this podcast, what we’ve all said on different ones, and I think the Hunter Biden thing and you know, he’s only pardoned, what, 26 people. Biden did do that big pardon of almost 3000 people for a low level, low level marijuana. It doesn’t immediately sort of release them, but it does set them up so that they won’t have as intense consequences, so that that’s a big deal. But again, like in not wrapping this up with other pardons of people who are legitimately need some clemency, he could take everybody off death row. He could do that. Trump is saying, I’m gonna kill everybody. He’s already said that. Biden could do that um and he didn’t. And again, I think this is what happens when you get a type of leader who’s been around for a long time playing to the wrong moment, playing to the wrong crowd and to the wrong media. And I think that is hard. Now, what I don’t like is people like Nate Silver are getting on lobby and like any Democrat who doesn’t disavow this should not be and you’re like y’all. Leave that. You did not have any of that energy for Trump. You ain’t have none of you weren’t doing any of these back flips when Trump was doing all types of stuff. I think it is. I’m not interested in like pure outrage as if this is like the wildest thing that’s ever happened. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I agree with everything y’all are saying. And I think the part where I’m at where I’m just still in sort of process mode, post this this campaign is like. I do feel I think I am misaligned values wise, strategy wise with this party and have been for quite a long time. And I I even was having a conversation with another friend of mine that’s been in the game for a while and just saying how I’m often the disruptor in every campaign I’m in. And I think when I saw this headline, it was one of those things that I feel like had I saw their, had it come into my inbox that there was a meeting about this particular issue and what the advice should be. I think that it again, it’s actually this this thing seems like it’s sort of like this very well organized machine that is playing to this audience or MSNBC or but it’s often not. It’s often people who are making one very urgent decision in the midst of making 10 to 20 other urgent decisions. So it’s not actually as thought out as you think, as you think something like this should be. Um. And so and so in that I think pulling back to being like as a party, like what are our values with our with the leaders of the Democratic Party, what are their values? And what what can I find to hang on to? And I think when I saw this headline, I just I didn’t relate to it at all. I, I as somebody who has studied so many political prisoners that have been in jail my whole lifetime. And to know that they’re still be sitting in jail after we’ve had I don’t know how many Democratic presidential presidents now. Um. Understanding that, you know, President Clinton also pardoned his brother for some, you know, cocaine distribution shit in in in the ’90s, I’m just like for me I guess where I’m at is enough is enough and I’m sick of bullshit. And to y’alls point around like if you are going to pardon some people like make it a pardon package and put some people in there that actually made sense who had given their lives and who their children have given their lives as part of a movement. But I guess for me the I can’t trivialize this because to me it speaks to sort of a greater values question around these people and around these people that are still running our country and still have, you know, some weeks in office to do a lot. But they’re not because they’re sitting around their Thanksgiving table talking about what’s going to happen to Uncle Hunter. I don’t care. Like there are people, Myles, to your point, last week, there are people suffering. And that’s what that’s what y’all talking about at Thanksgiving? Because either either way, you’re going to be all right. Whether Trump comes after them or they’re going to be just fine. So I don’t know. That’s where that’s where maybe I need to send Nate a email. Maybe I’m I am outraged by. I’m I am who you all are speaking. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come. 

 

[AD BREAK]

 

Kaya Henderson: So my news is was fascinating to me, um it’s out of the Washington Post this week. And um the title of the article is Inside the effort to Market Russia and Putin’s to Africa, Russia and Putin to Africans. And it talks about this organization called the African Initiative, which is a pro-Russian group that’s advertising on television and newspapers and online in Burkina Faso. Burkina Faso is a West African country with about 23 million people, I think. And um the African initiative um is an opaque network of groups that the Kremlin uses to spread Russian influence in Africa, it’s based in Moscow. And they have excelled in marketing themselves all over Africa, but um most notably in West Africa, which is experiencing um a lot of violence and disruption from Islamic extremists and where military strongmen have overthrown many of the governments that were seen as close to the West. And the African initiative is actually marketing to African audiences with a mix of pro-Russian and Pan-Africanist messages. There they tell the story of a school founder, a young man who found who starts a new school and when the school needed blackboards and notebooks for his new school. He knew who to call um because he had seen these commercials on TV and online and in newspapers about the African initiative. And so he called the African Initiative. And of course, they sent him a slew of blackboards and notebooks for his kids. And each notebook had a photo of Burkina Faso’s interim president hands clasped with Russian President Vladimir Putin. And the schoolchildren are screaming, Hooray for the interim president and hooray for Vladimir Putin. Um. People say things like, when Burkina Faso needs help, Russia steps up. Russia has provided arms and training in the fight against Islamic extremists for Burkina Faso and other um West African governments. In addition to talking about the amazing things that Russia is doing, they also um are undermining a lot of the U.S. funded public health projects across Africa to basically sort of destabilize the African relationship with the United States and the West and to shift um the balance of power to uh to have closer relationships with the Kremlin. Um. They do things like they host events to promote friendship between Russia and Western African countries. They sponsor Russian martial arts competitions. They have free Russian movie showings. They have raffles with expensive prizes to attract followers to their social media channels. They have created opportunities, more and more opportunities for African students to go study in Russia. And a lot of this has happened after the war in Ukraine. Since um the the Russian since Russia has become increasingly isolated and strapped for resources, where in the world has the most resources? Africa. And so Africa has grown more and more important for the Kremlin. Um. And I just thought I mean, they even highlighted a man who sells motorcycles and raises chicken for chickens for a living, just a regular Burkina Fasan who professes an unconditional love for Russia. Um. And I thought this was really, really fascinating. Um. For those people who don’t know, um the vast majority of the world’s natural resources remaining natural resources are in Africa. The vast majority of the world’s employable population of young people under 25. Africa has the largest population of young people under 25. And if you have not been paying attention to what’s been going on in Africa, um people from the West have been buying up literally. I mean, I went to Nigeria, Myles speaking of Nigeria in 2019, and I saw more Chinese people than I would have ever expected to see in Africa. And the Chinese people are building roads and they’re doing infrastructure projects and they own shopping malls and whatever. And we’re watching the re–, we’re not even watching it. It’s happening sort of under our noses. We’re watching the recolonization of Africa because we have resources. In part um aided and assisted by um by some African governments that are capitalizing on the opportunity. Um. But I think that given Russia’s unique position right now in the world where it is engaged in a war with Ukraine, which is also a very resource rich country, and that’s part of the reason why they invaded it, where it is um interfering geopolitically in not just in the United States elections, but in governments all over the world. And given Africa’s unique positioning, I just thought this is one to keep your eye open for folks, um because while we are arguing about whether Hunter Biden should go to jail or not, our cousins over on the other side of the ocean are talking about unconditional love for Russia, which I don’t think is going to bode well for the rest of us. So I brought this here because I thought we should be aware of it and wondered what you thought. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I think often um people so you know, like when you when we like vote um nationally and there’s like the red states and blue states, I often what think that we should also do that for the globe [laugh] because I think sometimes we don’t understand and I what’s weird about this particular moment because of the Internet. I think sometimes we don’t understand how conservative the whole world is and how red the whole world is. And what’s scary about this to me is when I think about Israel, underneath their leadership, when I think about India, underneath their leadership, and then also when I think about Africa, that’s one of the reasons I remember we um uh pods and pods and and pods and scores ago we talked about um the great the trip to Ghana and we talked about Black people’s uh some some some Nlack people’s excitement about that trip to Ghana. And my push back was, what about LGBT rights and what about all the ways that um LGBT and queer people will be in danger? Because a lot of countries, including Ghana, are deeply conservative and and and align closer than we will like to admit with places like Russia, and places like China and and and culturally in a lot of these things, when you look at uh how we’re how we’re seeing how liberalism is seen, how progressivism is seen um across the globe, it’s really like look at Biden and Kamala and they and everybody in their society is all mixed up. They’re born one way and they want to be another. Look at all these gay and trans spirits over there, and they don’t know what to do. Meanwhile, they’re all in. They’re all in danger. And I think this article, um Auntie Kaya had really reminded me how conservative the world is. And I think sometimes when you’re in America, you can just think that this is our problem. But I’m like, No, like Brexit is real. Like, this is a global conservatism, a global pushback. And a lot of people are more aligned than not. And we can’t just look at people’s skin color or even people’s um cultural histories and think we will be able to know what their decisions are going to be, specifically when it’s progressivism versus conservatism, because conservatism will always hold power and people are going to side with power. So it makes we can’t just separate and go you’re African or you have Black skin, so you’re not going to do be with Russia. It’s like, no, they conservatism empowers here. So people are going to be magnetic to that. So we have to figure out ways to child don’t even get me started on figuring out ways. Because I don’t know. Now I’ll just be talking shit. [laughing]

 

De’Ara Balenger: But I think. Myles That’s right. But it’s also this has been decades and decades of intervention by both Russia and China to establish these like relationships and bonds with the continent. Um. When I was at the State Department, I did a ton of work in both West and East Africa. And what I was always sort of overwhelmed by, the amount of sort of investment in infrastructure, digital infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure that China was putting into Africa. And I just Googled because I think this is like such a smart thing that China did. Um. I Googled where has China built stadiums? Soc– like football stadiums in Africa? And it’s Angola, it’s Benin, it’s Burkina Faso, it’s the Ivory Coast, it’s Kenya, it’s Tanzania. And this is part of a long term plan on on for for for China to boost diplomatic ties through large scale infrastructure projects. So this it it is, yes. Like, you know, sort of where we are now is we’re seeing this conservatism and we’re seeing sort of this these relationships and bonds being built on gone more conservative sort of principles and values. But this has been decades and decades in the making. And it’s also been sort of another issue [laugh] with the United States government, because this is sort of we are we are a country through our diplomacy, has always undervalued and devalued our relationship with the continent. And for Black folks that have been in the Foreign Service for decades, this was always a thing in the foreign services that if you become a senior foreign service officer, you go to an African country if you’re Black. You don’t get a job in France, you don’t get a job in the UK, you don’t get a job anywhere else. Right. And it’s an interesting it’s just it’s an interesting thing sort of what has happened because of bad diplomatic, bad diplomacy on the United States behalf and the ignoring of this entire continent. Because here’s here’s where here’s where we are. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: You know, it was um it was helpful to see this in The Washington Post, because I do think and my broader message is around what has what is real but gets deemed a conspiracy or what what is real and gets gets talked about in ways that are too complicated for people to understand. But the actual core message is not complicated. And I think that, you know, I’m even somebody really plugged in. Obviously, we’ve had the pod for a while, so I have to read the news every week and the like Russia influence thing felt like the boogeyman for a long time. It was like people on Twitter were talking about it, some of the blogs were talking about it, but it wasn’t like a it was hard to wrap your hands around it. So I appreciate that like people are wrapping their hands around it in a in a way now that is lifting it up out of the like, conspiracy theory land and into the like you know, Russia actually is methodically working on influencing a lot of things. Both the election in the United States, as you remember, the DOJ talked about those podcasters who were making $400,000 an episode. You see Kaya’s article talking about construction and da da da right like this. There’s a mapping of what Russia is doing that I appreciate and think is really important. I also think that, Myles, to your point around like, you know, there’s a lot of conservative people. I think that is true. And I like still and this is I really am not like a Pollyanna about it, I really do think that the base is actually with us on the core values when we talk about it in a certain way. And I think that the base is not when we talk about things in a in a different way. And I say that because I was talking to somebody I work with who is an organizer, and this is such a random example, but we’re talking about gerrymandering. So I say, I say something about gerrymandering and they say like, I don’t know what that means, like, da da da da. They do this whole like they are like DeRay, this feels really complicated. Let’s talk about something light. And I’m like, you do know what you might not know what the word is, but you definitely know what the idea is that, like, you know, people should represent people who live in their neighborhood. That makes sense. And gerrymandering means that we sort of make these random districts of people that don’t live that have nothing in common, but we do it so that we they can elect a certain person. And she’s like, that makes total sense. And we talk about prison gerrymandering, right? Which is like these um what happens when you count the prisoner people incarcerated as the town to inflate the number of representatives? Anyway, I say this because I do think there’s a way that we talk about all of this stuff, Russia, voter I.D., gerrymandering, da da da that that like our side will be like, yes, that makes total sense. I believe it. And I don’t think I like that to me is not conservative or liberal. I think there’s a way we can talk about the trans community, that we can talk about queer issues, health care that like our people will get off the couch and be like, that’s what I want. I believe it. I think that is not the way we’re talking about these things, [laugh] and I think that has beaten our blah blah blah. I think there is a moral superiority in our messaging. That is rough. But when I think about the Russia stuff, I do think we got to a I this I appreciated Kaya you bringing this because for the first time, I saw something that like laid out the argument just very clear without this like, conspiracy theory angle. And I think that that is actually really helpful. And I think that this is what people are interested in. And I you know, I wanted to say too, you saw did y’all see the historic drop off in viewers for MSNBC and CNN after the election? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Mm hmm. Yeah.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Historic drop off. People like are just–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yes. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Not watching MSNBC and CNN anymore. And the reason I think that matters is I do think that the coverage of the election was banking on what happened when Trump won the first time, which was like we would watch all day. We were hooked in. It was fascinating and wild and people aren’t doing that anymore. People are like, I don’t want to see this all day long. I don’t want to. I’m checked out. I don’t want to do the the  Trump drama train. Um. And I say that because I think that I think that it will make our storytelling even more important. I think it will make like aunt and uncles even more important as we go forward. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: One thing that I wanted to do and what I want to start doing more on the podcast is maybe connecting things that I’ve read through traditional sources with how it’s being channeled to different people via like news sources. So like, aka, like getting something from, so I got this from UVA today and then uh a YouTuber, a Black YouTuber who’s brilliant by the name of Little Bill, ended up doing something that’s very similar to this story. And they’re a year gap. But you’ll you know, I would I would dare to say that this story or anything similar to it is probably not going to get the tracks that um Little Bill’s video would um will get. So I want to start just letting people and y’all and myself know and remind myself how people are getting their information. But today we are talking about the Black church. So I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting and a lot of thinking. And, you know, Black folks are not going to church. Younger Black folks are not going to church. The memberships are just are just dropping. And we also know specifically everybody on this podcast and probably anybody who’s listening that historically the Black church has been a way for political movements and organization and social organization to happen. And specifically the younger you are, the more less likely you are to go to church. And if you’re Black and the younger you are, it also means if you’re going to vote or not. So a lot of people, a lot of people, when you start seeing the drops in Black people voting, it happens with younger people, too. And I think there are some I think there’s some synergy there. I think there’s some there I think there’s some things to draw draw um draw from. So I wanted to read a quote from a brilliant answer from um from this article that was really interesting to me. The question was, in your essay in the conversation, you quote Some scholars are saying the Black church is defunct, while others say it remains vibrant. What’s your um what’s your conclusion? The answer is, I believe that the Black church remains an influential religious and cultural institution. Despite its declining membership, it continues to shape the lives of many African-Americans. At best, it provides a sense of belonging, community power and significance in the face of personal hardships and endures in enduring systemic challenges. It is not only a site for the cultivation of Black religious expression, but also has contributed to both African-American cultural expressions and American culture at large. Despite its remaining influence, it remains to be seen how African-American Christian churches will come to terms with growing distrust of religion among younger people. One of the longstanding critiques of Christianity by Black critics is that it is the white man’s religion. Along alongside this, many Black LGBTQ youth and women call out pervasive patriarchy, queer antagonism and trans antagonism in many Black churches. Given the challenges to advance excuse me, given the challenges to advances of women and LGBT rights in the United States from religious and political conservatives, these groups perceive conservative Black churches as colluding with these forces, and I think there is. That has to be a big part of what Democrats and the liberal and the left, what it whatever the names are, [laugh] have to think about. Because the more I look at these numbers, their really scary. I’m like Black people, specifically younger Black people are not voting. And when we do vote, we voteyou know, we we tout around uh uh how how that we always usually vote. What we will want to say is the is the most logical way. But if we’re kind of moving in where the people who are voting consistently and loyally are going to not to be macabe, but are going to be dying and there’s going to be a whole nother generation of Black people who are not um at all convinced or motivated to go vote. Then that particular bloc is going to be eroding. And I don’t think that only the middle class or upper middle class or the politically engaged Black person is going to be enough to keep that power in the Black vote. And I think it’s because of that erosion in the Black church. And I’m thinking through ways like, what is the replacement of that? We always talk about third spaces and how um I guess the narrative is that all Starbucks took away all of our third, all of our third spaces and, you know, a really important third space for Black people is the church. And it just seems as if that is just not true anymore. And as I was reading this, I’ve seen plenty. I implore everybody who’s interested to go Google this, Al Sharpton and Democrats. Or Al Sharpton taking money. So as this is happening, you have a whole bunch of Black people. These are people Black on the left. So these are either Bernie Sanders um independent people, but these are not Black conservatives. You have a lot of Black people seeing that and dissenting against Al Sharpton taking money and being upset that Al Sharpton was chosen to talk to um uh Vice President Harris and wasn’t and did not disclose that he took money to uh speak to her and that would influence how those interviews go. And when I was reading that particular quote about people, specifically younger people, specifically young queer people who are leaders in the in in the Black community, feeling like, oh no, you are colluding with those forces. And then you have something like the Al Sharpton story drop, which for a lot of people reinforces the idea that, yes, the Black church, Black leadership, um people who are from that civil rights era or class of people are now colluding with democratic forces for their own for their own political gain. And I think this last election has shown the consequences of such erosion in such uh and that and that framework. And I wanted to bring it here not because I have any specific answers, but I wanted to see what do we think should be a third place? Do we see things like gro– like erecting itself in their place that we can that we can empower? Is there any space for Black people to talk to powerful people who are not as compromised as it seems as though a lot of our Black leadership is? you know, the same things, after you do your Googles on Al Sharpton, I implore you to do your same Google’s on Ro– uh on um excuse me. I implore you to do your same Googles on Roland Martin. Um a despi–and this is a despised person person within young Black people. So when you see young Black people talking about politics on the Internet and you look at Roland Martin, when you look at Al Sharpton, this, they are collectively upset with them. And I think we’re seeing the results of those things. And I think, you know, we talk about this all the time. I’m like, I think there needs to be a 50 year old, 40 year old, 30 year old, 20 year old, teenage come hither because we’re not all collectively motivated or trusting of the same Black people. And I think it’s eroding our own political power as Black people. So um, yeah, I wanted to bring this to the podcast, not because I had any miraculous thoughts, but I just thought it was a subject matter that it would be valuable for us to dig into and to think about specifically because there’s so how many how many Black people do you know who are spiritual but not religious? How many Black people do you know who, if not their own, are not queer or trans or something like that themselves, but really, really care about those things or really care about feminist ideas now because of it’s um because of how it went into uh because of how it’s kind of got into our culture and got into pop culture. How do we talk to those people to make it feel like, okay, there is a cultural space that is safe and also uh neutral so you can actually push back and something does happen and not just keep the same people in power. I think that a lot of that Charlemagne interview, even though I loved it, I think a lot of that was like, why are you talking to our communal jester and not talking to our communal kings? Why are you talking to people who are people why are you not just talking to? We were rather you see, you talk to 100 podcasters who have under 100,000 followers. Then talk to one Charlamagne. And I and I and and and maybe that’s the answer. Maybe that’s just the answer. Just go into everybody’s own personal, digitally made third space. And that’s how you touch everybody. Or maybe there’s actually something physical in brick and mortar we can erect that is replacement of it. But I do think we have to think about it because you just can’t deny um the reality that we’re in, and the results that we’re seeing. And and and and we see the results when Black people are not motivated. That’s what Barack Obama was trying to do during that time was motivate Black people to be as motivated as they were when he was going in when he was um running for office. And that just did not work. That that image, that idea, those the civil rights era, that Black elite, that um Black excellence uh veneer is just so so bad for some Black people. [laugh] You know, so I wanted to know um what you all think and how you all feel and if there’s any maybe some good ideas that come out of this conversation. And I feel like I should be calling on people. I’m like, I was literally going to say, um, Kaya, DeRay. Any–[laughing]

 

Kaya Henderson: Um I I mean, you said a lot. Um. I think maybe and I I could say a lot about the Black church um as somebody who was churched growing up, went to Sunday school and church every Sunday, was in the buds of promising, and the junior choir did all the things um and was pretty well churched into my adulthood. And now find myself kind of church optional. I like it. Um. I enjoy it. But it doesn’t hold the centrality um in my life that it once did. And um I think I’m just going to make it a little bit broader and say, I think that this the quote unquote decline of the Black church is actually indicative of the decline in civil society, civil institutions. Right? It’s not just the Black church. Lots of churches are seeing declines in participation um social groups um and it’s so interesting to watch at a time where we are lonelier than we ever have been. We are also eschewing many of the vehicles for building community. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yes. 

 

Kaya Henderson: And I think that part of that is because of social media where we think we have community in these online spaces um in and we don’t have to leave our house. We don’t have to go to a meeting, we don’t have to go to a gathering or whatever, whatever. And I think the pandemic exacerbated this lack of gathering, even like, you know, young people don’t go to malls on Saturdays and see each other and interact. And so I think that um this is just indicative of a breakdown of what I would call sort of in-person social communities that have been um critical to our our like thriving as human beings. Like we are social creatures. We need to be engaged with one another. And I think that um I mean, you know, I think about the fact that I’ve been working from home for the last eight years and just started a job where I go back into the office and I love it. I love being in the office. I get work done differently. I’m much more productive. And it reminds me that we are social creatures. As much as I like to be home on Mondays and Fridays. Um. But I think that for Black people, the church was not only a gathering and a community building place, it was not only a salve and a balm for the balm, B-A-L-M, for the, you know, atrocities and violence that we faced out in the world every day. But it was also a political organizing institution. And so even if we decided that we don’t need that community or we have other ways to ease our collective pain, the the political um function of the Black church is lost. Um. And and I do think that the sort of humanizing social fabric is lost as well. Um. And again, I think that’s not just for this community. I think that this is for a lot of communities. It tracks with people’s distrust of institutions that I think the media has done a very good job of, of undermining our belief in all kinds of institutions. And I’m not really sure what the antidote is. But I will tell you one thing that sort of came up in the news for me this week that was shocking to me um was in Australia, they’ve banned the use of social media for anybody under 16. And one of the things that I wondered is, okay, those kids are going to have to go somewhere and see each other and talk to each other. Those people are going to have to rebuild groups that are that, you know, where like minded people come together around an interest or an idea and whatnot. And I ultimately think that that nation will be stronger because they are rebuilding the social bonds and taking technology out of the forefront. And I just I, I wondered if that could ever happen in the United States of America. And I think the answer is no. Um. But I do wonder what makes us go back to the the ties that bind us the the institutions that connect us, the opportunities that give us um a chance to make common good. Um. And I think because we aren’t doing that, it is easy to be um divided and manipulated by people. And I don’t know how this ends. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming. 

 

[AD BREAK] 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It’s interesting, the last big research that has been done on Black people and religiosity is that Black people are more religious than other subgroups of Americans. And church attendance is decreasing by generation amongst Black people. So like that makes sense. I do think and I think about this with the Catholic Church, I think about this with the Black church is that there is either a there was like a willful ignorance around things that were not right. So like, I think the Catholic Church and the sex scandals, I think about in Baltimore, they’re closing I think 20 churches and Baltimore’s only but you know Maryland is only but so big so closing 20 actual like shutting down congregations, stuff like that because of the settlements with the sex abuse cases, they just don’t have the money to keep anymore. But, you know, that happened for a long time and they ignored it. And the consequences of it are like people like I don’t trust I think about the Boy Scouts too. You’re like, why would I go to this thing where you preach a moral message and you cover immoral things? Right? So like, I think that is what happened to them. And I think the Black church, I will never forget the last time I actively went to church. It was in Baltimore. I used to go to church all the time. And I think there’s a huge benefit. And like the fact that we all know the hymns and the, you know, we there’s like a, there’s a thing about it. And I think it was one of the few places in Black life where all the generations came together. There were there’s a reinforcement of norms. And every week we got a message that was somewhat political and a reminder that, like, even though the world is hard, you still got it. The last sermon I ever sat through was in Baltimore on the west side of Baltimore. I never forget it. And he was so homophobic and I wasn’t, like out yet. Like I hadn’t I was sort of just, like, trying to figure myself out. But I just remember being like, wow, that was really homophobic. And I was like, why would I ever sit through like, I couldn’t just walk out in the middle. So I had to, like, sit through all of it because I was, you know, that it wouldn’t have been socially acceptable to just walk out. But I’m like, Yeah, I will never, ever like subject myself to this sort of thing again, like, I’m not. I’m not. That was the last time I’ve ever, like, actually been a member. And y’all remember, it’s like your first time going. You stand up as a visitor, da da da. Like walked and I was like, yeah, I’m not doing this no more. Um. And I think that is a lot of people’s stories. Whereas like I believe in it, I want to do it. Um. And I’m like, Yeah, I’m not subjecting myself, but there are churches coming around now. But I do think they missed the tide. And to your point, Myles, I think they still have a strong hold on the older generation, and the data shows that. But there are young people. And to your point Kaya, I do think that the parasocial relationships have really hoodwinked people. That like, you know, and I think it’s exacerbated by capitalism that it is not simply parasocial, but there’s an incentive to participate in the parasocial. It’s Kai Cenat, you know, he has he had like I think he had like 700,000 subscribers, he broke the Twitch record. And the lowest cost to subscribe is $5. That’s a lot of money to watch this kid just play on Twitch, you know, or you think about like Twitter, Instagram, it is incentivized. You can make real money by pretending that you’re people’s friends and they have a relationship with you online. That is a that is a very interesting sort of dynamic that I think that we will only continue to see the consequences of. And the last thing I’ll say that is hopeful. I think people are hungry for offline spaces. I think about like people want to get together, they want to do stuff. Quality sometimes be damned, because I’m gone to stuff where I’m like, what is going on? But people just want to be together. And I do think that the people who will have the new type of power will be the organizers, the organizers of people in real life, whether it is like parties or like the run clubs or the you know, I, I don’t know if y’all have seen on Instagram, the dad clubs where the dads like take all the kids to like Chuck E. Cheese. And like, I think that people are like wanting to be in community. And the barrier for entry to being one of those organizers is lower than it’s ever been and used to be like, you know I’m an organizer and da da da. Whereas now it’s like, hey, get your friends together, go outside and make a thing. And I think that that’s coming back. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. Myles, thank you. Because my mom and I actually listen to Little Bill who I now am a subscriber too. Um. When we were running our errands yesterday. And it’s a it’s a it’s so there’s so many level layers of this conversation. So one, obviously it’s like sort of where people are getting their information from which we’re seeing. And through your education, Myles, is more and more through YouTube and um and these sort of independent sort of sources, which always and it’s and I’m also listening like on audible to Ta-Nehisi’s The Message. So so interesting. I went back between Little Bill and Ta-Nehisi like they actually need to have a podcast together because that would be fabulous. Um. But you know, I think I think the root of what we’re all talking about, particularly for Black folks, is, is is sort of finding spaces to convene in physically. To Kaya’s point around folks being lonelier than ever. Like I think these are and I think a lot of these conversations sort of came out of this election too. Sort of like the work we need to do as a community, whether that’s on mental health, whether that’s connectedness, whether that’s addressing homophobia, transphobia, like there’s so much work for us to do as a community. Now I do think that the Black church, that’s like an institution like that, that’s actually like a discipline for us to study. I think there are sort of spiritual places like my church in D.C., Unity Church is a non-denominational church, ran by an incredible Black woman, Reverend Sylvia. And then Middle Church in New York, which is ran by Reverend Jackie Lewis. Like there are actually inclusive, beautiful places where a lot of this can be worked out um spiritually, metaphysically, um which I just wanted to note that. On the sort of political election side and how this ties into how folks show up at the polls. I think that’s something that needs to be clearly be addressed in a huge way. I was having a conversation with a friend who’s in Georgia politics um a couple of days ago, and she said to me, she said, you know, she’s like guess how many people voted, just how many people showed up to the polls for the next the last Atlanta mayor’s race. And I was like, I don’t know, like a couple of million? Like, there’s got to be, what, like eight or ten million people in Atlanta. 96,000. So to become mayor of Atlanta, you need probably, what, 900,000 less followers than DeRay has? You know what I’m saying? That I probably didn’t say that, but it’s like DeRay actually, we collectively could be mayor three times over in Atlanta just with our social followings, you know what I mean? Like that is and thse and we actually need to take these things seriously. And I don’t think we do enough because I think the folks that understand them are the folks that are sort of the Al Sharpton’s and the consultants of the world that know how these political levers work. Like, I don’t even know how this stuff works because I’m not a corrupt person in the in these politics. Like I’m always like, that can’t be right. And I’m like, wait, what? What did they what did they do? No! So there’s so much going on here. And I hope we continue to sort of like I love actually this sort of construction of the format you’re bringing, Myles, because I think so many things we talk about, we talk about in an interconnected way. Um. And I think it’s it’s so sort of smart and elevating that we do that. And hopefully as we start to continue to distill and explore that, we will get to some sort of solutions. Um. But I think even the approach is is a good start for how we talk about these things. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I wanted to say something really briefly to DeRay’s point, because it was really good and um DeRay, the video that I provided um from Little Bill. It actually is a critique of the film Honk for Jesus Save Your Soul, which um stars uh Regina King and um that fine Black man Sterling K. Brown. Yeah, so um. So it’s both of them and inside of it, it really dissects um Sterling K. Brown having um uh just sexual like like homosexual sexual abuse and Regina King being in um being in relationship with him um despite that. But they’re both being like these owners of this mega church. So it really is like a that that film in itself is a critique of kind of like where exactly you were going with um with everything. So um I do think that and then to your point De’Ara, um I actually was thinking on the other end as as as much you people can’t see this but I have African masks behind me. I’m just a big spiritual Black, spiritual person. But I was like, we need Black atheist spaces. I think actually us coming together um based off of belief and spirituality, um and hope, I think that has expired. And I think whether it be digital or not, we need more Black atheist spaces. I think that’s why Hasan Piker, who’s deeply political, intellectual, and I never heard them speak about anything that spiritual or anything like that has really um captivated so many, um so many people. And he’s a he’s a streamer. I think that Black people, we have to I think we have to kind of I don’t say grow out of it, but accept that maybe we need a place where that’s not moralized, that’s not spiritual for us to come together and maybe we can have better movement when it’s not based off of based off of that as, as antithetical to, to our mindset as can be, I that is just where my impulse is going. And I think we can’t overestimate how lonely people are. So to DeRay’s point again about the running groups and all these people who want to be together, that is great. And I totally agree agree with DeRay. I think that it’s definitely happening, but also there’s a deep loneliness and a deep incel community that of of of of young like I’m talking about young men who are afraid to speak to people. We’re talking about people who are so addicted to convenience that talking to certain people publicly or being outside or being in community with somebody brings them anxiety because we have a whole generation who went through Covid, who has convenience, who only know digital, who is a deep fear. So I also think it’s about people who are extroverted, people who uh are older, who remember playing outside. I think it’s about us building those places too, and dragging some people out as well, because I think the people who are already motivated to participate to what um DeRay named, were always going to participate, and I think there’s a whole other group of people, specifically Black folks, who are totally lost, totally abandoned, totally lonely, who may not be motivated by themselves. Thank you all for sharing [?]. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I think that’s right, Myles. But I also think like I think we don’t we also don’t have to like when we say spirituality, it doesn’t have to be through sort of a religiosity. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I absolutely agree. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: I think there’s I think and I don’t think we do enough as Black folks to get to sort of our roots around, you know, sort of Indigenous. This is also from a very personal place because I was, you know, been in a eight year relationship with an atheist and so maybe maybe I can be a part of the pull to sort of pull [laugh] Myles, pull those convenings together. I have a lot of experience there. But I think and that’s why and that’s why I think it’s important for us to not sort of define spirituality through these sort of like Western constructs, because spirituality is really just about self-awareness, self-reflection, and then also your ability to be able to empathize um and sort of see others, right? And so I think and also, just like and for me, a step further is actually like your relationship with like the earth and animals and the like. So I guess it’s maybe it’s just a redefining of how we’re talking about spirituality so that it does have more of an inclusive pull. Um. And so it doesn’t imbibe some of these other things that are sort of triggers for so for so many folks, which is is understandable. And Myles, I completely I completely hear and feel you. But I also don’t want to sort of do away with so much of what is what what we need to get back to and what should just have been done that you know, better. And there’s sort of decades of practice into it. And like how can we pull the things that actually have not been corrupted um from from from that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. Just to so I’ll go to my news, but just as a clarification on the numbers De’Ara for Atlanta. Your point remains, uh there are 500,000 people in Atlanta and the mayor of Atlanta in the 2021 runoff won with 50,000 votes. So your general point, just tweaking the numbers a little bit, but the general point remains that 500,000 residents. It took 50,000 votes for him to win and only 78,000 votes. 78,000 people voted. So it is much uh it doesn’t take a lot. In Baltimore it’s like 2000, 3000 votes to–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Wow. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Be on the city council, which is really crazy. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: That’s just such a wild thing. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It’s crazy. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Wow. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. Anyway. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Um. My news is about prison. So in Virginia, there’s a notoriously bad prison in western Virginia called the Red Onion State Prison. I want to shout out local journalists from um prison radio, which is a like not mainstream um outlet that covers prisons and jails. And they are they’ve been around for 30 years. Independent production studio that does radio, TV, film, hosted things. And they have been highlighting a lot of issues that people have not been for a long time. But what they did highlight that has become really public now is that in the Red Onion jail, people have been putting themselves have been burning themselves, putting themself on fire with the hopes of being removed from the prison to another facility. That the conditions are just so bad that in a 2018 lawsuit, one man hallucinated and said he spoke to his dead parents because he was in solitary for more than 12 years. Another guy was isolated for more than 600 days. He started to speak in numbers, lost more than 30 pounds, forgot how to spell his name. The DO– The Department of Corrections just settled the lawsuits that their families filed. Um. And in response to the conditions, the governor’s office has created an ombudsman’s position within their office of office of inspector general to monitor prison conditions. But again, the short version is that the conditions are so bad that people are setting themselves on fire with the hope that they have to get moved from the facility. So just a name that’s wild, that, you know, the punishment of incarceration is separation from society. And the idea that when people are incarcerated that we torture them is just unreal. Incarceration enough is torture. So I had not heard of this prison before, this news became a news on Twitter. I’m happy that the mainstream, like the appeal, actually picked it up because there are a lot of these stories that get surfaced in independent media that covers prisons and jails and never gets picked up by anybody and gets, frankly, ignored unless advocates sort of yell about it. The other thing is that when we think about the solution, Maryland actually in the same vein as the ombudsman position, uh Maryland actually did the same thing. And the challenge with these positions is that they have no power. So what they can do is that they can go visit any place, they can monitor any place. They have free rein to go to facilities and all that stuff. And at the end of the day, all they can do is make recommendations to either the Department of Corrections or to the governor. And while that is interesting, I’m not really sure I call that actual oversight. So the Virginia law that passed makes us whole. You know, when you read the law, it they can do all they can go investigate and write reports and da da da. And at the end, the only power they have is actually to make recommendations. And I do think that when we start thinking about oversight, we actually have to like, nail the power part of oversight as opposed to just creating these bodies that give recommendations that don’t, frankly, have to be contended with. So it’s not even like, you know, they can force hearings or, I don’t know, like they really can just make recommendations. Um. And I don’t think that that is enough. Like when you read the law it literally says the ombudsman ombudsmen shall have the authority to make recommendations to the state inspector general to hire staff, secure office space, contract with experts as necessary. And you’re like that is not I don’t think that’s oversight. I don’t know what that is. That’s interesting. I don’t think that’s oversight. So I wanted to bring it here because this was fascinating to me. And one of the few stories that we see rise up to national media. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Thank you for bringing this to the podcast DeRay. Um. Like, of course, it’s sad, right? Of course. It’s it’s depressing. It’s depressing. But I think that my mind, my mind automatically goes to the piece that you were that the comment that you made even around the um the media and how it’s like finally like how this story has infiltrated the mainstream media and how that’s and how that’s worked. I I I’m really just I guess I don’t know what the word is. Maybe disappointed. I’m I’m yeah probably disappointed that there is not a more robust ecosystem to engineer this being a story, you know, like and engineer it because I think we do have enough people on the left who care about these subject matters, who care about um what’s going on with these people. Because you know that that’s a cry for help. If somebody’s setting themself on fire to get out of the jail, that’s a cry for help. Um. And we we have the data, the cultural memory of Vietnam. You can’t watch a Vietnam documentary without somebody saying, you know, Americans seeing what was happening in Vietnam changed the changed the uh feeling for Vietnam and changed people’s perspective on it. And I’m like, yeah, we have to we have to create our own ecosystems that engineer this being in front of people’s faces. And we have people who are capturing enough attention from from different pockets of people to engineer this being a viral story if we wanted it to. So we don’t have to lean on the appeal. And I think if there’s nothing else, I think it’s situations like this that feel ripe for those moments because it’s not a whole lot of talking about there’s not a whole lot of maybe this, maybe that the story that I remember, maybe three or four or five podcasts, I don’t know child. How about the um about the men, the police officer men coming into the house and and torturing um that Black the Black man in Mississippi. Like, to me, those are the type of stories where I don’t I’m like, I would call you know, you know I’m obsessed with [?].  She’s so pretty. And she’s so smart. But like like I’m like, who’s calling [?], Little Bill, F.D. Signifier, um Jewel Z, like these are all people who I’m like the I feel like if you said, hey, we can can we, can we get this story on or is there a way that we can get people paid to maybe like to infiltrate it or to collaborate with them? It’s there and I’m like, if we can keep the momentum of people knowing that this is happening and that people are being tortured and this stuff is happening, then it won’t be this big four, three and a half year uh uh amnesia about where the status of the world is and all you can remember is I don’t even want to get into that. There won’t be this a big amnesia around where the status of this world is if we keep on reminding people that right underneath their comfortable feet or right underneath their own worries, or their uncomfortable feet are people who are being tortured, exploited, who are setting themselves on fire to escape their situations in America. I think that is riveting. And I think it’s awakening. And I think we can engineer more people being awakened by that information if we were just more a little bit more organized. So that’s the only generative thing that I can say about this. That does not sound like um gloom and doom, but thank you for, as usual, for keeping um keeping us aware of what’s happening um in this kind of like invisible minority that is um imprisoned prison people. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Mm hmm. And it looks like there was a documentary about this prison DeRay done in, like, 2017. So um, yeah, we can we can sort of learn more. And I think this and maybe it’s just my brain, but this is why I get so upset about the Hunter Biden stuff. It’s just like, this is what we have going on and this is a part of our criminal legal system. And what a shame. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, it’s it’s totally. It’s totally true. It’s totally true. It’s totally true. Um. But the trans issue, right? The trans jail people being transitioned in jail issue that but that was engineered, they took, I remember texting DeRay in the podcast–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yup. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –being like, how many people can you tell me the number of–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: –people this happened to? And DeRay’s like, I think the answer was like three. Like I was like, I’m like, oh this is engineered. You picked it, you engineered it, you made it go viral. Let’s do the same thing with righteous causes, because it it’s the best of times and worst of times for being a free for all, um for what we want to make news and go viral. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: That’s right. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Well, after today’s episode, thank goodness for some uplifting news. I saw Wicked last night. I went with my little brother and one of his good friends, and it was glorious, absolutely glorious. Cynthia Enrivo [correction: Erivo]. My dear, my dear it was she was spectacular. And it’s it’s so interesting watching this film at this moment, because obviously I so, so desperately, like, need wins. Um. And Ariana Grande was also incredible. You want to murder her basically, the entire film, um she does an excellent job at sort of playing like just the classic blond, mean girl. Um. So she was excellent as well. But there’s so many things that I’m still processing from from all of this. Um. And and just sort of you know and for y’all that there’s no spoiler alert it’s like it’s Wicked we all know it is, it’s basically the story of the what like the origin of the Wicked Witch of the West and how she became evil. Um. And what this film does is sort of show us like, you know, how the powers that be can sort of orchestrate sort of cultural norms and and language and identity um to create this sort of narrative about about an individual. In this case, it was um Elphaba who is the Wicked Witch of the West. What was brilliant about this film is sort of the layering of complex issues that I think depending if you are seeing the movie as a Black woman who from the very beginning of the movie, you’re already rolling your eyes and roll your neck because you’re like, see, here we go. We’re already it’s 30 seconds in the movie. We’re already mad. But by the end, it is just like this sort of transformational sort of manifestation of Black girl magic. And Cynthia just pulls it off so beautifully. Um. And so I want to encourage everyone to go see it. The theater was packed. I will say it’s so interesting being a Black person in a theater with white people. I don’t know why white people are so adverse to like, I mean, at the end of the movie I was shouting, clapping all the things because I just was like, oh my God, this is like we have ascended and everyone else is just like quiet in their seats being like, oh here they go again. Um. So that’s always an interesting thing. So we need to screen this. We need to do a Campaign Zero screening DeRay so I can be with my people when we do this, okay. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Because a completely different experience. But but those are those are my thoughts. I’m I encourage you all to see it so um we can have an even deeper conversation about it. But it was absolutely beautiful. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: De’Ara, I love that you say her name so Black and so wrong, Cynthia Enrivo, just made my heart smile. That woman’s name is–

 

De’Ara Balenger: What’s her name? 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –Cynthia Erivo, Erivo. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Oh. I’m sorry.

 

DeRay Mckesson: But Enrivo is great. I love it. It’s so–

 

De’Ara Balenger: I’m sorry. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: It’s so Auntie that I actually love it because it was it came out of a place of love. Um. So I, that made me smile. You know, the right hates the movie because they think it is too woke. And um and they are like, you know, this is an attack and blah, blah, blah. So it’s been interesting to see their critiques of it. Granted the the thing is 20 years old, this is not a new story. But did you know, De’Ara and Miles, you haven’t seen it yet, right? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: I haven’t. No.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Have you seen it on Broadway? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Mm hmm. Yes.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. So you’ve seen it. You just haven’t seen the movie. [?]

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yes but yes.

 

DeRay Mckesson: Okay. Do you know that in I think in the history of this on Broadway, there’s only been one full time Black Elphaba. So there have been some understudies and some standbys, but there’s only actually been one casted full time Black Elphaba in the history of this play on Broadway. And that is wild to me. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Whoa. [?]

 

DeRay Mckesson: So I thought that was interesting. So it’s made it’s made Cynthia being Black even more special because there’s only been one Black full time. There have been if you look it up, you’ll see some of the women who did play it, play Elphaba and they were understudies um or they were on tour um and got to be in the role. But on Broadway, I think there has been one, again stunned.

 

Myles E. Johnson: That. That’s why. That’s wild. Um. I want to give, like, a little like weird, Wicked themed shout out to my um my boyfriend’s bestie, Kimber Sprawl, who played Nessarose in the Broadway show. She’s now going to be um she just um announced. I want to get her on the podcast to interview her because she’s going to be on stage with Denzel Washington in Othello. So I would love to speak to her about Shakespeare and for the podcast, but um I haven’t seen the movie yet. I’m really excited. But one thing I will offer that’s been really interesting to witness culturally is Cynthia. Cynthia is um not the most liked Black person and I’m al– and I always on culturally when I when I see when I see like kind of like the temperature around her, she’s not the most liked Black person. I think that’s for a lot of different reasons. I think that she’s done things taken roles that people have really had uh, like her taking the Harriet Tubman role and the Aretha Franklin role. I think a lot of Black Americans really feel offended that she was this British young woman who took these Black American roles. I also think um I also think that she is a dark skinned woman. I think she has short hair. I think that she has a queer esthetic that is not for the male gaze that really unsettles people, both subconsciously and consciously. But what’s been interesting about seeing her on this on this kind of campaign or whatever is that I think we found the upside of all these big [?]’s because it seems to totally have insulated her. It has not taint the Wicked ship. She is still people are still have gone to see it. I don’t know what the box office numbers like the the the um. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Huge, huge. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: The final ones, but I know they’re huge. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: Huge. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I know that they–

 

De’Ara Balenger: And they and folks are also mad. Myles, just to quickly interrupt you because they thought Joker with um Lady Gaga and whoever else was going to completely overshadow Wicked and hello Joker who? 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, they were they were delusional when it came to that. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: This is the highest grossing musical to film adaptation in history. It surpassed Grease, which had held the title up until Wicked. And remember that Nessarose, all of us have seen the play, at least. Uh Nessa, the actress who plays Nessarose in the movie is is disabled, and she is the first disabled woman to play Nessa Rose. Who is also–

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: –disabled. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Okay. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: So I really appreciate um what they did in the film. I thought it was also fascinating that they actually built those sets, so it was not CGI for a lot of that. Those were like actual sets of like the train to the Emerald City actually exists. And da da da and remember that the story, just like the play is in two parts. When you go see it in real life, there’s an intermission. Uh. But in the movie, we get the second one in November 2025. They’ve already filmed the second one. It is done. It’s just not coming out for another year.

 

Myles E. Johnson: Something to look forward to. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Yeah. And they talk about a marketing budget because whoever did the marketing on this team, baby hire them for, if you got the money, hire them to tell your story. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Right. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Because Wicked. I thought Adele’s comment about Wicked was great. She was like, I don’t like musicals. But the marketing for this was so good that even I got to go see it and you’re like, girl yes, because they it’s they have hotel collabs, Starbucks, Airbnb, like movie theaters. I’m like, they have really and you know what also did really well I think um I think Moana is now the–

 

De’Ara Balenger: Yeah. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: Highest, Moana two is the highest grossing animated film in history. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: Oh wow. 

 

DeRay Mckesson: I didn’t see Moana 1, I sort of missed the Moana craze, but I’m actually going to go see one and I’m a watch one and go see two because people have been raving about what a beautiful story two is as well. 

 

Myles E. Johnson: And to your point, DeRay around the marketing, I found the marketing so interesting, the subtle marketing. So when you go on um, you know, I’m obsessed with YouTube and Instagram, and influencer and all that other stuff, the subtle marketing of, okay, we’re going to pay this influencer. Talk about anything Wizard of Oz theme. So you have these two hour deep dives into Wizard of Oz or into um Shirley Temple almost being cast as Judy Garland. So you have all so you have these big uh sweeping moments of like pink and green and you’re like, okay, it’s Wicked time. But also there’s these, like, little smart things they did just to get the taste and temperature to the right dial for Wicked, which I think was really interesting. And just to put a pin in my initial thought. Um. Yeah, I think that Cynthia, being so insulated from from maybe people’s distaste for her is good news for people who just want to sing and act and not want to be likable and be a celebrity showing that, oh I don’t have to be the most popular or the most liked person in order to not tank a movie. I think that might be um a positive on this kind of death of the movie star that we’ve been seeing. 

 

De’Ara Balenger: One last thing. The Wiz is still hands down the best out of all of this stuff. So thank you, Quincy Jones. [music break]

 

DeRay Mckesson: [AD BREAK]

 

DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning into Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger and Myles E. Johnson. 

 

[AD BREAK]