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There’s no ifs or buts – Reform had a won big in last week’s local elections – but it’s not all bad news. Near-total Tory wipeout, positive signs for the Liberal Democrats and Greens and a lesson for Labour: acquiescing to Nigel Farage will only empower him.

A slightly jetlagged Nish and a fresh as a daisy Zoë digest the results before diving into demands to end Israel’s occupation of Gaza… Led by, of all people, rebel tories? In the wake of the Netanyahu’s latest actions, why isn’t the British Government speaking up more?

Later, the pair are joined by climate activist Patience Nabukalu, for an injection of hope following her direct action calling for an end to fossil fuel investment from one of the UK’s biggest banks.

**Comment was sought from HSBC regarding claims of dismissing voices at their AGM but was not received in time for publication. We will update this podcast if we receive a reply**

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Zack Polanski

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TRANSCRIPT

[AD]

Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I’m Nish Kumar.

Zoë Grünewald And I’m Zoë Grünewald. Nish, we’re back in the studio. How’s your jet lag?

Nish Kumar I am thrilled to be back in the studio. I got back to the United Kingdom two days ago at 6 a.m. My body is inside out and upside down. But apart from that, I’m ready and raring to go.

Zoë Grünewald Okay, well, this might not be the news you want to come back for, Nish, but today we’re going to be talking about reforms win at the local elections and, of course, where Labour goes from here.

Nish Kumar Let me guess, is it going to be swinging wildly to the right? We’ll also be talking about Netanyahu’s monstrous plans to occupy Gaza.

Zoë Grünewald Then later, an injection of hope.

Nish Kumar Thank God for that!

Zoë Grünewald Will meet the climate activists on a mission to get banks to divest from polluting industries. Patience Nabucali.

Nish Kumar Okay, so first things first, the local election results. There are no two ways around this, and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say it, but it was an absolute win for reform and Nigel Farage.

Zoë Grünewald Yep, so across all councils, Reform won the most. They picked up an enormous 677 council seats, while the Liberal Democrats came second on 370 and Conservatives third at 319. Labour won 98 seats, Independence 89, and the Greens won 79. So just to reiterate, Reform very nearly won more seats than the Liberal Democrat and the Conservatives combined. And took control of ten councils across England.

Nish Kumar Reform also won two mayoralties, one in Hull and East Yorkshire with Luke Campbell and one in Greater Lincolnshire with the former Tory Brexiteer, Andrea Jenkins. They also managed to win the Runcorn and Halesby by-election by a nail-bitingly close margin of six votes. But Zoe, there was some good news. The Conservatives lost control of all 16 councils they previously held, four new councils went to no overall control and the Liberal Democrats won three councils. But we have to be clear that this is definitely a huge win for Nigel Farage and a cause for concern if this trend continues, right?

Zoë Grünewald Reform has had a huge surge, but obviously they won zero councilors last time, so anything would have been a surge. The proportion of Labour voters going to reform is about eight percent. It’s roughly unchanged from where it was since September. So there are some in around number 10 who are saying, let’s not lose our marbles too much about this at the moment. And it’s also also worth pointing out that these were local elections in Brexit friendly areas where the Tories did unaccountably well in the last cycle. So, yes. Reform definitely made huge gains, but we always have to take locals in context, which is that they tend to have lower turnout as well, and it tends to be a slightly older electorate, which can skew the results somewhat.

Nish Kumar Am I right in saying historically they’ve been used as a way of whacking either an incumbent government or an unpopular opposition like the Conservative Party and they don’t always necessarily directly tessellate over to a general election?

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, that’s right. And I think it’s also worth noting that this is the first time that we’ve gone to the polls since Labour’s election. So you are definitely going to see a lot of people who were angry with the Labour government come out and, as you say, give them a whack, try and teach them a lesson. But they don’t always necessarily translate directly into election results.

Nish Kumar John Curtis, who’s a kind of polling guru who understands numbers in an almost way that suggests he like sees electoral results the way that Neo sees the matrix at the end of the movie, just ones and zero slowly falling over his frame of vision. But he told the BBC that the results quite clearly prove that reform is a threat to both Labour and the Conservative Party. That supports Nigel Farage’s claim that reform is the real opposition. So I guess just quite simply do we now live in a three-party country. And is the third party not even the Liberal Democrats, who also had a good night?

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, I mean, the Liberal Democrats did have a good night. I think what is undoubtedly true, whether or not Nigel Farage can get to number 10 Downing Street is a different question, but reform is influencing the two major parties. They are both now suffering from Farage Derangement Syndrome. All they have spoken about since Locals is Farage and reform. And for the Tories, this is existential, you know, it really does feel like reform is taking any Tory voter that it can get its hands on. The Tories are having this ideological battle now about do they ape reform or do they become something else and the we should ape reform proponents seem to be winning. It really feels like reform are going to consume the Conservatives one way or another. Labour are still absolutely preoccupied with reform and you know this suggestion that they’re going to go further and faster now, what does that mean? Does that mean shift further to the right? Does that mean continue to say we don’t like reform but we’re going be like them? It doesn’t make any sense. Undoubtedly, reform are having a huge impact on the political system. It’s unlikely reform would at this point form a majority government. And we also have a situation where it looks as if reform support could start to trail off that, you know, there are some political commentators who are arguing that they have peaked, but they are more organized than they were at the general election last time. They have much more support. They have financial backing. And there’s also this question of, could they do a merger with the Tories if the Tories really feel like it’s either merge or die? You could see something, some deal made between Badenoch and Nigel Farage at some point, or maybe not Badenok because who knows how long she’s going to last.

Nish Kumar Well, I was going to say, because Badenoch, these results are very bad for her unquestionably, and someone like Robert Jenrick, a man with a lack of charisma that suggests he was once cursed by a witch, he has openly talked about the possibility of a reform conservative coalition. Can I just ask you the question that’s been plaguing my mind for the last week? How is this any different from the last ten fucking years of my life? How is this any different from 2015? Like, I can feel my gray hair’s turning black, Zoe. I can my back pain easing. I can see my early 30s returning. Nigel Farage is calling the shots on the political direction of this country, and Labour and the Conservative Party don’t know how to respond. What’s fucking new?

Zoë Grünewald I think this teaches us a lesson, right? Which is, remember when we had the Brexit referendum, Dominic Cummings said this would finally take the heat out of the immigration debate and finally get rid of Nigel Farage. It doesn’t. The idea that you can shut Nigel Farage up by giving him what he wants clearly isn’t true. And that is a lesson that Labour need to learn because they think if they meet reform on their ground and they fight the battles that reform wants to fight, that is somehow going to neutralize Nigel Farage. It is not going to neutralize Nigel Farage. It just makes… Him more influential in the political conversation.

Nish Kumar In terms of where Labour go from here, the concern is that they’re now going to lean towards the right of the party even further than they have been, but that’s going to create sort of internal tensions.

Zoë Grünewald One of the things that Labour is seizing on is the fact that immigration is a priority for a lot of reform voters, but actually the thing that tops even immigration and the thing that concerns Labour voters, and actually voters across the spectrum, is the cost of living and the state of government finances. And you’re seeing more calls come out, not just from the left of the Labour Party, but actually people across the board saying, if Labour wants to fight reform, do not take them on on immigration or social issues. Take them on, on the economy. Yeah. Do something radical, like. Reforming the tax system. So that could be something really radical like a wealth tax, which we’ve spoken about loads on this show. But then there’s other stuff you can do like reforming, the regressive council tax system or equalizing capital gains tax with income tax.

Nish Kumar Former Transport Secretary Louise Haig has warned the government against lurching further rightwards instead suggesting that they begin to fight ideological battles. She says that of course every government wants to deliver but, and this is a direct quote, conflict clarifies whose side you’re on. What do you make of that Zoe?

Zoë Grünewald It’s about winning the argument, right? Not indulging every reformed voters’ worst thought. These are actually lessons that Labour can take from the Canadian elections and the Australian elections, which is that they picked an enemy, which was, which was Trump or it was whatever. And they said, this is what we’re fighting against. And voters actually like that. They like the punch. They like battle rather than. Indulging every bit of rhetoric from reform. Labour should say, no, we don’t think that at all. We don’t agree with that and be punchier on it and talk about, you know, things that actually appeal to Labour voters.

Nish Kumar The March Malign cuts to the winter fuel allowances that Labour implemented last year might be up for reconsideration, according to the Guardian’s Jessica Elgert. That would definitely be good news for pensioners. Do you think they would actually press ahead with this and do you think even if they do the damage might already have been done to that section of the community?

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, so I think there was a bit of briefing and counter briefing going on. It seems like there is obviously a portion of the party, maybe even in the cabinet, who really want a reversal of the winter fuel cut. Obviously, for some pensioners, this would be significant. This is a portion of money that they need. But politically, I think a U-turn would be so damaging to Labour, because it would undermine their economic message. And it would show that they are willing to turn around in the face of their first electoral test. I mean, it shows a lack of stability around the leadership. They shouldn’t have done it in the first place. I mean not only was the comms terrible, I mean why would you single out pensioners rather than doing a big package of economic reforms? But you turning on it won’t mean people forget what Labour did and it will just make them look weak.

Nish Kumar Look, Nigel Farage has very limited experience of actually running anything. Like, he’s a campaigner, he is an agitator, but the second Brexit happened, he absolutely fled the scene of a crime, like somebody farting in a lift just as the doors open. And when a Farage-run party held control of any level of government, that was in 2015 when his UKIP party picked up leadership of the Thanet District Council in Kent. A few short years later, the entire thing collapsed into infighting. There are going to be people now living under reform councils, from an electoral perspective, is there a positive thing in reform actually having to do some fucking work? Is there an idea that we might actually be able to see in some of these places what happens when you give these people who have absolutely no experience of actually governing the keys to a council.

Zoë Grünewald I guess I’ve got two points on this. The first is that much like we’ve seen the Trump effect in Canada and Australia, where actually voters are very put off by seeing what Trump is doing to the country. And we know knowledge of Farage is tied in many ways to Trump. So Trump could be the undoing of Farrage. In terms of them now having keys to the council, this worries me because yes, it is tempting to go, do you know what, if people want reform, give them reform and see how badly that goes. But the problem is councils so run into the ground. You know, this idea that you can take more money off them and you can, you know put more strain on them as a kind of ideological practice.

Nish Kumar This sort of dogeification of politics is absolute stupidity. We’re seeing in real time the chaos that it’s unleashing in the largest economy in the world. I cannot believe we’re still indulging in this crap. Anyway, sorry.

Zoë Grünewald No, you’re absolutely right. And my worry is that if services do get worse, as they probably will because of the things that reform are planning to implement, my worry is that will only make people more angry and will allow reform to say, oh, that’s only because of government. You know, we really want to do X, but we can’t because of immigrants in this area or we can because the government doesn’t give us the powers or the controls we need to do this. And if you’re suffering with the cost of living, it’s not because we’ve taken more money off your already cash strapped council. It’s because of what Keir Starmer’s doing in number 10. My worry is that they’ll continue to capitalize off the anger of them degrading public services even more. And also just that local authorities just can’t take any more strain. The idea that even if reform do pay for it at the ballot box, so much damage will have been done. And It’s just the idea that what this country needs is more efficiency savings as opposed to investment. It’s for the birds.

Nish Kumar Now, after the break, we’ll be talking about Israel’s plans to occupy Gaza indefinitely, the brewing conflict between India and Pakistan, and a surprise challenge to the Green Party’s

Zoë Grünewald [AD]

Nish Kumar On Monday, while Britain marked the 80th anniversary of VE Day with military fly-pasts and tea parties at Buckingham Palace, Israeli ministers announced plans to seize and occupy Gaza indefinitely. Israel is talking openly about the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to southern Gaza and taking control of aid after a two-month total blockade which humanitarian agencies say has left the population on the brink of starvation, with many families down to one meal a day. Gaza will be entirely destroyed, those are the words of Israeli minister Bezalel Smotrich.

Zoë Grünewald The UK government released a short statement after Stama spoke with French President Emmanuel Macron on Monday evening, which read, discussing the situation in Gaza, both expressed their deep concern at recent developments and agreed a renewed peace process was required. Well, early on Monday, the Foreign Office also said that the UK does not support an expansion of Israel’s military operation in Gaza.

Nish Kumar Meanwhile, more than a dozen senior Tory MPs broken ranks with their party and written to the PM to urge him to defy the Israeli government and immediately recognize Palestine as a state. The letter was written in late March, soon after Israel broke its peace agreement with Hamas, and now Israel is going one step further with its plans to conquer Gaza. Is it time for the UK to pull all military support of Israel and call a genocide genocide.

Zoë Grünewald More than 140 UN member states have already recognized Palestine, yet Qaistama is understood to not have even responded to the letter. Even the Tories are saying this.

Nish Kumar And so much support from his own party. We’ve seen, maybe not necessarily reflected in the front bench of the Labour Party, but certainly across the bank bench is huge support for the recognition of a Palestinian state.

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, absolutely. We know that Gaza has been hit by a wave of looting and theft, increasingly desperate Palestinians struggling to get food. Medical officials report rising cases of acute malnutrition and community kitchens are shutting down for lack of basic essentials. And aid agencies say they’ve distributed all remaining stocks of food, but obviously we also know it’s getting increasingly dangerous for aid agencies to operate in the region. So, at what point are we going to say enough is enough? It’s time to take a stand on this. CLEARLY there is political support across the country, there is support by voters, there is from other countries, you know, the UN. Why would we not now stick our neck out and say how the country really feels about this?

Nish Kumar No, I mean, it’s a real shame that we don’t have the capacity to come down as strongly on the Israeli government openly threatening genocide and ethnic cleansing as we do on, say, for example, Irish rap groups. The government continues to provide diplomatic and military support for Israel. As we record, a story has been broken by The Guardian that UK firms have exported thousands of military items, including munitions to Israel, despite the government suspending key arms export licenses to the country in September. Findings have led the former Labour shadow Chancellor John Mcdonnell to call for a full investigation He added that it was a resigning matter if the foreign secretary David Lammy was shown to have misled Parliament in breach of the Ministerial code when he told MPs in September that much of what the UK sends to Israel was Defensive in nature. He’s right Zoe, isn’t he? He’s correct. If that does prove to be the case, then that is going to be a residing matter

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yes, if he’s found to have misled parliament over such a serious issue as well, it is in breach of the ministerial code if you do that, knowingly, willfully, as we saw obviously with Boris Johnson over Partygate. There was lots of question at the time, wasn’t there, about how you could even prove that what was being sent to Israel was defensive by nature because it’s so, you know, so disparate, so spread apart. There’s not a lot of oversight of how it’s used. So it might be that it is a difficult one to prove that the Foreign Secretary had knowledge of, but if he’s honest, brief, he should be. And this is quite an extraordinary story coming at a time where the pressure to stand up against Israel is immense and of course has cross-party support.

Nish Kumar The thing that’s most heartbreaking, frustrating about this is this has always been the inevitable aim and goal of this Israeli government. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again, much more eminent and qualified colleagues from Pod Save the World, Ben Rhodes and Tommy Vito have warned that this was always the long-term ambition of the Netanyahu government, a government that contains men like Smatric and Itamar Ben-Gavir who have were kind of open. Hostility towards the right of people in Gaza to simply exist. This is the inevitable consequence of this. And I never understand when and how these obviously bad ideas become considered obviously bad ideas. Now, there’s almost no one who will stand up and support the decision to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan after 9-11. But at the time, there was a kind of manufactured consensus around this. The Uk Labour Party and Labour leadership is a part of that consensus manufacturing engine, and Keir Starmer, a qualified lawyer, a man who understands international law much more than I do, still said that Israel had the right to cut off food and water supplies to Gaza. Our governments have written blank checks that Benjamin Netanyahu is now cashing in, and I don’t know at what point we take a kind of inventory for the moral responsibility of this, but I do think… There will become a point where everyone will simply agree that this was always a bad idea to support Netanyahu and no one will ever be held accountable for it, because that is what’s happened with Iraq and Afghanistan, and I just think it’s deeply, deeply frustrating that people who understand that region warned from the beginning that uncritical support of Israel was always going to end in this situation.

Zoë Grünewald Now on Tuesday it was announced that the government had managed to clinch a long in-development trade deal with India, which promises to yield some benefits for UK trade. Here’s the Prime Minister.

CLIP This is the biggest deal the UK has done since we left the EU and I think I’m right in saying it’s the most ambitious that India has ever done.

Zoë Grünewald He seems excited about that, doesn’t he? Oh, okay. Well, this deal that Keir Starmer is brimming with excitement about promises to cut duties on British whisky and vehicles and introduce new markets for the services sector. However, the opposition has immediately claimed that the deal will lead to an increase in immigration, which of course the government denies. It’s looking like a broadly good thing for British trade and the government will no doubt be keen to chalk it up to But the timing of the announcement was unfortunate, falling on the morning that India fired a barrage of missiles into neighboring Pakistan, fuelling international fears of a tit-for-tat escalation.

Nish Kumar So this conflict is around control of Kashmir, a region at the base of the Himalayas that both India and Pakistan have claimed since their independence from Britain in 1947. There have been two full-blown wars fought over the region, constant simmering military tensions. You might be familiar with the heavily militarized border between the two countries known as the Line of Control. This latest round of fighting has been prompted by a terrorist attack in India that killed 26 civilians that occurred during a visit from US Vice President JD Vance last month. A previously unknown Islamic militant group calling itself the Resistance Front, claimed responsibility for the attack, which India has explicitly linked to Pakistan, although it has not publicly produced any evidence, and Pakistan continues to deny any involvement. So on Tuesday evening, India fired missiles into the Pakistani-administered side of Kashmir, which officials claim killed 26 civilians. In response, Pakistan claims to have shot down five Indian fighter jets. After the attack the Indian army posted on X writing Justice is served and Jai Hind, which means victory to India.

Zoë Grünewald The conflict has long been feared, obviously, by people on both sides of the line of control. And the threat of a full-blown war between these two nuclear powers is very real. So Pakistan has warned of a counter-strike. Obviously diplomatic intervention at this moment is absolutely crucial and the UK holds a very clear responsibility to step up here. So we have various UK politicians who’ve urged restraint. Scotland’s First Minister John Swinney said he was deeply concerned by the events in Kashmir. Suspended Labour Mp Zahra Sultana condemned the terror attack, especially pointing out that there’s been no conclusive evidence presented linking Pakistan. And the business secretary Jonathan Reynolds said, our message would be that we are a friend and partner to both countries and anything we can do to support de-escalation, we will do.

Nish Kumar The terrorist attack killed 26 people, which is obviously absolutely horrific. But a further escalation could leave us in yet another conflict that’s instigated by a terrorist attack. And, you know, the reality is these terrorist groups are seeking to start wars. This is the stated objective of all of these kind of organizations and it’s very concerning and frightening when governments give in to these acts of terror and immediately escalate them into conflicts. Nobody wants to see another situation like the one that’s unfolding in Gaza. Nobody wants see situations that unfolded in Iraq and Afghanistan repeat themselves. Terrorist attacks, when they happen, are absolutely horrific and there should be justice and accountability for those responsible, but starting a blanket war is never going to end well. These are countries that are both nuclear powers. That is very… very concerning. Most of my family is in India. I have a personal vested interest in this war not escalating. And it is a deeply, deeply frightening situation for us to be thrust into.

Zoë Grünewald It’s also worth saying that there can also be domestic ramifications, obviously, if you get those tensions brewing over to various populations here in the UK and other countries across the West, that also can become an issue as well. And I think, you know, now that we have a trade deal with India, I mean, the UK’s official position, obviously is kind of neutrality between the two. But it does obviously prevent the government from taking a very, very firm line either way. And again, it’s this classic example of. Diplomacy, it’s so inextricably linked to governing in your country. You know, a lot of the decisions you make now, a lot of decisions Keir Starmer is making are impacted by what’s going on in the rest of the world.

Nish Kumar Okay, now onto a surprise announcement from Green Party Deputy Leader Zach Polanski, who this week launched a campaign to replace Carla Denya and Adrian Ramsey as party leader. Here he is making his leadership bid.

CLIP We all know we need a party that is bolder, clearer about what it is that we stand for, and crucially, what we will always stand against. A party that can cut through, not just to those who already agree, but to millions more people.

Nish Kumar Now Zoe, is this a surprise after some pretty strong results for the Green Party in the general and local elections?

Zoë Grünewald So yes and no. It is a normal part of Green Party leadership. It’s usually open for bids every two years. Obviously at the moment it’s Carla Denia and Adrian Ramsey who are co-leaders, and their term was extended due to timetable changes and a bit of a delay after the general election. But it is possibly a bit surprising timing considering they had some really good general election results and increased their number of councilors and voters and support across the country. So we’re so used to psychodrama in the kind of major political parties were. Leadership bids come at a time of political turmoil. Actually, this seems to be a leadership bid wanting to take advantage of the rise that the Greens are seeing, probably in response to Labour moving further right.

Nish Kumar I mean, I read a report about the Labour Party in the Guardian last week where an unnamed Labour minister said that the Labour party was lucky that the Greens have been, and this was the quoted word, shit so far. Do you think there is a slight sense that as much as the Green party’s success has been very, very notable in the general and local elections, that they could be going further in terms of eating into that Labour vote?

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, I mean, first of all, pot kettle black from that Labour Mp in question. But yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, I mean, it’s not all the Greens fault, right? Our media have this obsession with right-wing challenges, especially. And, you know, even though Reform and the Greens have the same number of MPs, Greens get nowhere near the look in that Reform gets. I think the Greens probably have been slightly poor at getting their messaging out. I mean, Polanski actually appears quite a lot on the airwaves for the Greens, so it kind of makes sense that he would position himself as leader. And I think they should definitely be capitalizing off the move to the right of the Labour Party because there are plenty of disenfranchised voters. It feels like Ed Davey is actually picking up a lot of those voters when really, Ed Dave and Labour, they probably occupy a similar part of the political spectrum.

Nish Kumar In The Guardian, Gabby Hintzeleff wrote that almost a quarter of women aged 18 to 24 voted green last July. That’s roughly double the number of young men who voted reform. There’s a sense that young women are lurching more sharply to the left. Again, not something that necessarily is massively covered. This is a huge opportunity for the Green Party. Also, one of the things we know, particularly from the Conservative Party and also to a point for the Labour Party, is constantly having leadership challenges whilst it sort Stymies your ability to develop a coherent political platform, definitely gets you media coverage. I mean, this is great. We’re having an in-depth discussion about the Green Party right now. Is maybe a bit of psychodrama, even as I’m framing this question, I feel bad for asking it, but is a bit of psychedrama good for…

Zoë Grünewald It can be helpful, you know, and it can, I think, show that kind of leadership and strength if someone goes against essentially the party machinery or the party’s complacency to put themselves forward and say, I want to shake up this party, I wanna move it forward. You’re right, that gets people talking, that’s people looking at what their manifesto commitments could be or what their policy positions are. I mean, one of the things Polanski spoke about was he wanted to transform the party into an eco-populism movement, which is, you know, populism has quite negative connotations, I think, sometimes. So it’s a slightly strange bit of wording. But it is an interesting approach because Labour still is sticking to its green pledge. I mean it’s watered it down, but it still seems to, at the minute, be sticking But there is a lot of fear that that is next on the chopping board as Labour lurch further right. And as reform. Make hay out of net zero trying to link it to rising energy costs and things. So it might make sense if you had a challenger party that really does put net zero front and center because actually public support for net zero is really high.

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, yeah. It’d be really interesting this idea of turning itself into this kind of radical movement. I think one of the things that could be difficult for the Greens is where they stand with planning reform and building, because obviously that’s a massive part of the Labour leadership’s bid, because they want to get more houses built. They want to get more infrastructure built. It’s also a big part of their push for our own domestic energy supply. And the Greens typically have had quite a large NIMBY contingency within the party. So people who don’t like big infrastructure projects being brought. And that is kind of at odds with some of their ecology stuff. So Polanski probably will have a bit of a task on his hand. He wants to represent particularly young people and young people’s wishes for housing and cheaper energy bills and all those kind of things. He probably will have to face off against some of those nimbies who are of the kind of more pro ecology side of the party. So that will be an interesting one to look at because that has been probably the thing I would say that’s held the Greens back mostly.

Nish Kumar And we should also be clear that Plansky’s bid is going to be somewhat soured by an early career scandal where he worked as a hypnotherapist and he was targeted in a sting by the Sun newspaper where a journalist posed as a client seeking a breast enlargement. Which plants get tempted to deliver in a pro bono experiment, which he said was not meant to be a literal enlargement, but a process meant to help with bodily self image. Now he’s apologized for this and said the apology is to recognize that issues of misogyny and women’s body confidence exist in society and articles like that in the sun are not helpful. Is that something that you think that we could come back to bite him in

Zoë Grünewald I mean, it’s a strange story. It’s a very strange story! It’s definitely, I mean every sentence, you know, was a new twist.

Nish Kumar It’s a strange story that gets stranger the more you-

Zoë Grünewald Look, I think, you know, it was many years ago and I think if he’s able to explain it, talk it away, it’s also helpful that it was a sting by the sun. I think a lot of voters will not like the sun and will probably feel a little bit of empathy towards Polanski for what it was essentially a bit of a trick. I’m sure it’ll be used as a stick to beat him with but I don’t think it’s going to be something that brings down his leadership bid.

Nish Kumar So, just in the short to medium term, how much should Carla and Adrienne be concerning themselves with this?

Zoë Grünewald I don’t really know, to be honest. I think it’d be interesting to see how this plays out. I mean, I think, it was really interesting what you said, Nish, about, you know, this might bring more people towards the Greens, really scrutinizing their policies, seeing what they stand for. And if Zach is able to present a vision that appeals to this kind of new raft of voters and can keep the old ones in, and as I said, there are dividing lines within the Greens that will probably be of some worry to him. But I think if he can present the Greens as a new progressive party and re-inject some energy into a party that should be capitalizing off Labour’s move to the right, then yeah, I’m sure they will be potentially worried.

Nish Kumar Either way, any opportunity to actually get green policies and a green platform out into the public sphere is probably going to be good for the party in the long run.

[AD]

Nish Kumar It is the hottest start to a May on record, according to the Met Office, but we should definitely keep investing in fossil fuel projects. At least that’s what banks across the City of London seem to be thinking. A major report from the Climate Think Tank Leave It In The Ground initiative has found that Britain is a key financial hub for new fossil fuel project that threaten to undo efforts to fight climate change.

Zoë Grünewald And at the same time, there appears to be a breakdown in climate consensus amongst the UK parliament. Former Prime Minister Tony Blair and former Home Secretary David Blunkett have suggested the government should dial down efforts to limit fossil fuels or risk alienating voters, while Nigel Farage has called net zero lunacy and promises to scrap targets and tax renewables if, God forbid, reform takes power.

Nish Kumar Government is being pulled by both sides, but what action should they be taking? Patience Nabukalu, 27-year-old climate activist from Uganda, has traveled to London to deliver a letter demanding HSBC stop financing climate destruction. And she joins us now to talk about the risk of inaction and what we can do to hold institutions and the government to account. Patience, welcome to Pod Save the UK.

Patience Nabukalu Thank you very much.

Nish Kumar I was disgusted to discover that you’re only 27 years old.

Patience Nabukalu Really? It feels…

Nish Kumar If it just feels too young to be doing something that worthwhile with your life, what were you doing at 27?

Zoë Grünewald Nothing of note. Thanks for reminding me. Actually, it was only about two years ago.

Nish Kumar Oh yeah, well I forget you’re also a young person, whereas when I was 27, you know, we were all on steam-powered trains. That’s what I’m saying, sir. Queen Victoria had just passed, what inspired you patients to first speak out and become a climate activist?

Patience Nabukalu I’ve been an activist by default, by force. I come from a community that has experienced floods for all my time of living. And this has not just affected me, my family alone. This is a whole community, children dying in the flood. I used not to go to school every time I trained because we have to stay home to the waters from the house and poured them out. And also like the roads were always like blocked because of these rains. I realized that this is not actually only us, people who are living in Nateite, but also very many places in Uganda. And actually it’s a global issue happening all over like the global south. We have seen also the global north going through these climate impacts. And later during COVID, you know, we had a lot of time at home. And scrolling onto like my phone, checking and seeing very many people, youth out there are taking action online. And that is when I started posting my work, joining the Fridays for Future movement that was started by Greta Thunberg. I was inspired by Hilda Nakabie from Uganda. She used to go on Lake Victoria and pick this plastic. So I joined her. I feel like that is how I became an activist.

Zoë Grünewald Travel to London to deliver a letter to HSBC. Hmm, hey- who is the largest European financier of fossil fuels in the global south. And according to a 2023 action aid report, HSBC channeled 48 billion pounds into fossil fuel activities between 2016 and 2022. Tell us about the letter. What was it calling for? Bye-bye.

Patience Nabukalu Drafted a letter with youth and communities in the global south. We signed by over 84 organizations calling HSBC to act to climate because communities like ours are continuing to leave devastating impacts of climate change and yet they’re continuing to finance corporations like Total Energies in Uganda. That we have had this. Stop that is African could op pipeline campaign.

Nish Kumar Right, yeah.

Patience Nabukalu And this is not just a campaign. This is to fight against corporations that are continuing to displace communities. And the East African Could-O-Pipeline is yet to be constructed in my country. This is a climate bomb in making, a human rights violation project, and actually a colonial continuity project. And coming up with this letter to HSBC was the right decision. But… It was horrible.

Zoë Grünewald What happened?

Patience Nabukalu I can really say it was a horrible experience. So what happened, we went to the HSBC, and they had rules. They’re like, you have to register the question before you enter, right? Which we did. We registered our question. We were given the question card. And the chairman comes in. They address the AGM and all this. And then they give a chance to people to ask their questions. In, in the room, we were me and a lady from the Philippines. So the chairman closed the meeting without giving us a chance to speak. And yet we registered the questions actually of which we registered before other people. And during the closing of the HSBC AGM, uh, there is this lady from Germany. She stood up and she was like, this is not right. These people need to ask their questions because they have flown all the way from their countries to here to talk to you, to pass their demands to you to ask them questions. Is this how you treat people? Is this is how you treat communities? And the chairman was like, I’ll call security to take you out.

Nish Kumar Oh my god.

Patience Nabukalu Yes, and the lady really insisted and the whole, you know, audience was like, boo, booing the chairman. And that is when I and that lady from the Philippines got a chance to ask questions, of which, like me, I was already, like, frustrated. And of course, I asked, I cried and asked my question, but we were not given response.

Nish Kumar We should also say it’s not even just HSBC that’s the problem here in terms of investing in polluting industries. According to the study by Leave It in the Ground, nine London banks were invested in huge oil, gas and coal projects. If those were to all go ahead, they’d have the potential to produce 420 billion tons of carbon emissions, which is equivalent to more than 10 years of current global carbon dioxide emissions and would completely shatter global climate targets. This is a sort of huge and crucial moment for us in the climate movement, right?

Patience Nabukalu HSBC has a net zero goal, sustainability goal, by 2050. When I had this, my heart sank. Because 2050 is too late for communities like mine, for people like me that are already living in the devastating impacts of climate change. We should also remember that communities that are actually experiencing these. Climate impacts have least contributed to the climate crisis. And yet they’re showing us exactly where their money goes, that it is controversial because their money is continuing to flow into fossil fuel extractions, seeing families and communities being displaced, putting livelihoods at risk.

Nish Kumar Sort of most terrifying thing about all of this is the gap between their rhetoric and their actions, right? So HSBC and companies like that know that they have to spend a lot of time saying, we have a serious commitment to climate change. We are, you know, goals by 2050, blah, blah. First of all, what you’re saying is 2050 is too

Patience Nabukalu It’s too late.

Nish Kumar It’s too late.

Patience Nabukalu And we also, I want to remind these countries that for them, they are ready for these impacts of climate change. But a country like Uganda is experiencing these impacts and not ready. So promising and giving pledges of 2030, 2050 to us, it’s a death sentence. How about now when people are dying? When children are not going to school, when communities are being displaced for projects like the East African Code or pipeline? How about now?

Zoë Grünewald You mentioned the East African crude oil pipeline. You’ve obviously spent years campaigning against that. And now 40 banks have walked away from financing the project in April this year. After a targeted campaign, the insurance company Chubb also divested. Obviously, you’ve had a bad experience with HSBC, but clearly protest actions can be really effective. Why do you think that is?

Patience Nabukalu At the Stop the East African Crowd Up pipeline campaign, it has not been really easy because the environment where we are doing this activism, people like me in Uganda, it is hugely hard and risky for us to do this. But protesting, doing actions, confronting CEOs, all these things have made it possible. And also like when you look at Chubb. I went there in 2023.

Nish Kumar Chubs and insurance companies, yeah.

Patience Nabukalu Yes, the insurance company and after two years, we see it come out that it will not ensure that East African could opipline. This is a huge step. It joining 30 insurance companies that are divesting from ECOP. This is clear example that activism works. So we just need to increase the pressure, actually not give up on our own people and ourselves. We shall achieve the justice we deserve.

Nish Kumar The UK government over here cut the aid budget from 0.5% to 0.3% of our national income in order to boost our defense spending. Now, this is important for this conversation because the UK’s climate commitment comes from the aid-budget. So the increased climate finance promised to countries in the Global South at COP last year is under threat. Patience, How important is it that the UK meets these commitments on climate financing.

Patience Nabukalu Developing nations rely on climate finance to adapt to these impacts of climate change. With the drawing or not delivering climate finance is like a betrayal to these communities. And also when you look at UK, they have positioned themselves as climate leaders. Yeah. Right? And if they have position themselves in that place, so they need to do or act accordingly. They should not erode the trust, Global South communities that they have put into them. And we are yet to go to COP 30. And I would really want to see the UK step up or raise or double its climate finance towards these affected communities or vulnerable communities.

Zoë Grünewald The former UN climate envoy, Mary Robinson, said that countries in the global south should have the right to use fossil fuels to grow their economies in the same way that rich western nations have done. What do you make of that argument?

Patience Nabukalu I feel like allowing communities in the global south to expand fossil fuels is to lock them into a polluting system that has happened before by the global north countries. And they should be only given an opportunity to access clean and renewable energies. Because when you look at Africa, it’s all alone. It receives almost 12 hours of the sun, giving them another opportunity to lead into the energy transition. When you look at the East African crude oil pipeline, communities have been promised jobs and these are temporary jobs. These, these jobs that cannot sustain them for the next 40 years, right?

Nish Kumar That’s such a huge point, isn’t it? Because it’s presented sometimes as a commercial opportunity. But these are not companies that will be engaging in these activities that are owned by African or Asian countries. These are Western companies that are going to come in. Create commercial opportunities for other people from their countries that they’re going to fly in. I think that’s such a crucial and important point in here. And you also said earlier that the East African pipeline is almost an extension of colonialism. There’s actually just further exploitation of Labour and the natural resources of these countries.

Zoë Grünewald And Patience Look obviously this week has been difficult for you but you’re staying really strong and it’s really inspirational and I think our listeners will agree with that. How do you stay hopeful and keep fighting?

Patience Nabukalu Look at the people themselves, I stay hopeful because there is no hope in leaders. There is no help in corporations, but the unity, the people, themselves in the global South, people fighting with us, those standing in solidarity with affected communities, they keep my hope and they raise my hope every day.

Nish Kumar Before we let you go, I just want to ask one final question. We talk almost weekly on this show about our various problems with the internet and how it’s ruining everything. One of the things that struck me about the things you said over the course of this conversation is the extent to which the internet has facilitated a global conversation between climate activists, you know, in the global north and the global south all across the world. Is this a sort of positive example? The good being conferred on the world by the internet, because it’s actually facilitating a global conversation between climate activists. Is this a good news story for the internet?

Patience Nabukalu The best microphone activists, especially us in the global South, really, really have. Otherwise we cannot reach out to our local leaders because they’re dictators. We cannot reach outs to corporations like Total directly. So I think it has been a great tool to this generation.

Nish Kumar That’s a really inspiring message to people on how they use the internet.

Patience Nabukalu Mm-hmm.

Nish Kumar Stop using it to stalk your ex’s Facebook page. Stop using to leave a mean comment because you don’t like an actor in a TV show. Use it to investigate injustice.

Zoë Grünewald Yeah.

Nish Kumar And start a kind of global conversation around it.

Zoë Grünewald Patience. Thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK. Thank You.

Nish Kumar And that’s it, thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save The UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter and on Blue Sky at podsavetheuk.crooked.com. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

Zoë Grünewald Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Nish Kumar Thanks to senior producer James Tyndale and producer May Robson.

Zoë Grünewald Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

Nish Kumar The executive producers are Anoushka Sharma and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

Zoë Grünewald And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays on Amazon, Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.