President-elect Donald Trump has a strong stance on many issues, from isolationism to border control, not to mention he’s an open climate change denier. Is his political platform already shaping UK party politics? Nish and Coco chat to Sky News Political Editor and host of Electoral Dysfunction Beth Rigby about what his looming second-term means for the UK.

 

And with changes to university tuition fees in England for the first time in eight years – we dissect the crisis in higher education with President of the National Union of Students Amira Campbell and General Secretary of the University and College Union Jo Grady. Nish and Coco also dig into the mailbag to find out what you think. 

 

Plus – some essential listening – does Coco not understand what a mullet is?

 

Guests:

Beth Rigby

Amira Campbell

Jo Grady

 

Useful Links:

Christmas Comedy in aid of Women and Children First ft. Nish Kumar

https://www.leicestersquaretheatre.com/show/christmas-comedy-in-aid-of-women-children-first/

 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Nish Kumar Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I’m Nish Kumar.

 

Coco Khan I’m Coco Khan. And we’re one week on from Trump’s election win. And alarm bells are ringing for the Labour government. We’ll be speaking to Sky News political editor Beth Rigby about what a second Trump presidency could look like for the UK.

 

Nish Kumar And with changes to tuition fees for the first time in eight years, we’ll be digging into the crisis in higher education. We’ll hear from the president of the National Union of Students, Ameera Campbell, and the General Secretary of the University College Union, Jo Grady.

 

Coco Khan Last week, Keir Starmer wasted no time in congratulating Donald Trump on his historic victory in the US presidential election.

 

Clip As the closest of allies, the UK and US will continue to work together to protect our shared values of freedom and democracy. I’m happy having had dinner with President elect Trump just a few weeks ago. I look forward to working with him in the years to come.

 

Nish Kumar But in reality, the president elect is already posing a headache for the Labour Government. Joining us now to understand how Trump is infecting everything before he’s even in office is Beth Rigby, political editor for Sky News and host of the Electoral Dysfunction podcast. Beth, it’s great to have you here.

 

Beth Rigby So nice to be here. I just wish I was in the studio with you, like last time.

 

Coco Khan You’re the only political journalist left here in Britain. Aren’t you going to go?

 

Nish Kumar I’ve been dispatched. Next week, though, he’s going again and he’s going somewhere else. So I was like, I can’t. I can’t do another trip. We did Samoa and we were there for five days and three of those days were on a plane. Can you imagine that? I was I was very, very, very tired when I got back. Yeah. Wow. So I haven’t gone to Baku.

 

Coco Khan Well, good for us, though, isn’t it? Yeah.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah. Sky News is lost is our game.

 

Coco Khan Yeah, exactly.

 

Nish Kumar So how are we feeling Beth sort of a week into Trump’s electoral victory and the sort of implications of what it means for I mean, I think the Labour government is doing a pretty good job of looking like they’re pleased with the results.

 

Coco Khan Yeah.

 

Beth Rigby Honestly. I mean, it is fascinating. I think even when you were phoning them to talk on background last week about what they thought about it, everyone was with the program. So even behind closed doors, they will not allow themselves to express misgivings or concerns about a Trump administration. It’s like pragmatism all the way. Although I did speak to one figure who is an adviser, he sort of said to me what we hoped the last minute it wouldn’t be. So it now is. So we’ve got to make the best of it. But, you know, whatever they say or however Starmer presents, of course, it’s painful for the Democrats to their sister party. But now they are in government. He’s got to try and find a way to make it work with Trump. So any idea that the UK government cannot criticize him? Forget it. If you want to go and have a look at David from the Liberal Democrats because you ain’t going to get it from Keir Starmer.

 

Coco Khan But the problem isn’t just a matter of values and name calling. I mean, there are other significant problems for Labour. So for example, their recent budget, their number one plan was growth, but under a Trump presidency. How are those plans going to be fulfilled? I understand that Goldman Sachs have now downgraded their UK economic growth forecast for 2025. It’s all because of Trump’s tariffs. And then there’s the nomination of arch protectionist Robert Lighthizer as the US trade representative. So look, Rachel Rhys has been clear that she’ll fight for free and open trade between the nations. But it does put her on a collision course with Trump. But ultimately, is Labour just in for a very, very tough ride?

 

Beth Rigby Honestly, Coco it’s really interesting because like when when it happened last week, everyone was, how is Starmer going to handle this? And he’s out of the traps and he’s congratulating Trump before it’s even declared and he’s trying to get on the front foot diplomatically. You know, he’s bragging about his dinner with Trump in September at Trump Tower when he went over to the US for the United Nations General Assembly meeting, you know, which would have been a bit painful to lots of Labour and peace. But this is now the badge of honor. So that’s all the language in the diplomacy. But you are spot on policy wise. They are sitting in Whitehall thinking, what the hell is the guy going to do? And the thing about tariffs is you’re absolutely right that it is potentially going to make a real material effect on the economy. And Trump is the self-described tariff man. I think when I spoke to people in government a week ago, there was a sort of hype about, well, maybe he said this stuff about tariffs in the campaign, but he’s not going to do it. I think that the scales are coming off the ice now. People are like, no, he is going to do it. If you look at what he said, go back to what he was saying, you know, on the Joe Rogan podcast and all of his rallies, his talk consistently about tariffs, about a more isolationist approach, about protecting the domestic economy in the. Us. That is what he basically won the election on. So he’s talked about flat tariffs of up to 20% and up to 60% on China. The hit for the UK economy could be really hard. I think there was some hopes, warned that he might just be mildly protectionist. I think that’s fading. Then there was some hopes that would they carve out a special UK deal because we have Brexit and he was into Brexit. I think that is now fading. And the latest talk within Whitehall at least, is that there will be a set of focused rather than flat tariffs. And what that will be is, you know, will he be really focused on tariffs, on automobiles, you know, which won’t be as bad for the UK if we can focus on services, not manufacturing. But anyway, so it is squeaky bum time and people don’t know what he’s going to do.

 

Coco Khan Do you think it’s reasonable that I mean, that was one of two parties that was going to win the presidential race? Should Labour not have been a bit more prepared?

 

Beth Rigby I think to be fair to them, though, as prepared as they can be, and I think they were more prepared. And then the government then was in 2016. There is a danger for us as well that a time when Keir Starmer is trying to get closer relations with Europe, if there is a trade war between Europe and the US, where what does the UK do and do we get squeezed and do we look to the US or do we look to Europe? So I think that look, the problem is for a UK government, for the administration is the unpredictability of Trump. You know, that’s a sort of an adage within Downing Street now where it will be and this comes from Starmer, which is don’t look at what he says. Look at what he does just in terms of the impact on UK politics. But do you think that the Republican Party in Trump has provided a sort of political roadmap for how can we badenoch as leader of the Conservative Party, will be looking to attack the Labour Party? I think for me the actual more interesting aspect of it is reform actually. And coming back not has to challenge that, doesn’t she? Because does she try and mimic reform or does she try a different model in which she has to try and kind of talk to the middle ground to pulling the kind of coalition of voters to win general elections in a fast paced system? But when you look at all these seats, reform came second in over 80 seats that Labour won. They came second in over 100 seats. Think about Trump and what does he represent? He represents the resurgence of nationalist protectionists to the right, populist politics and talking about borders and living standards and working people. And that has become a potent force where he built this coalition of voters in the US and then look to Europe. You’ve got Macron could lose in 27 to the far right. The German coalition is collapsing in the AfD. The right party in Germany is in ascendancy and Starmer could become the last. So it’s a bit deep, but Starmer could be either the last center left leader standing right? Yeah. And so that in the UK look at that. Look at the opportunity for reform. Look at how Badenoch tries to respond to that. You know, lots of people are talking about the Welsh elections next year in the Senate and the way in which reform are going to absolutely storm it and take dozens of seats there. That is actually that populist threat from Sarraj is sort of the thing I would say for the moment that the government are extremely alive to Starmer on the plane over to backing to to call. When he was asked about what his priorities were. His priorities are now economy and borders. Guess whose priorities they were? It was Trump. So, you know, the the Labour government are very alive to it. Whether they can actually provide the solutions to hold that coalition of voters together in the next five years is a totally different question.

 

Nish Kumar Okay. Well, if we consider that the Conservatives are a damaged brand, at least in the short term, looking to 2026, there are elections for the Welsh Parliament, the Senate, and last Friday, reform held their first Welsh conference in Newport at the general election in July. The party performed best in parts of northern England and in southern Wales. Of the 98 seats where Farage’s party came second, 60 were in the north of England, 13 in Wales. If we just take the Conservatives out of the equation for a moment, they’ve historically never done well in Wales. I think at the last Parliament they had one Welsh MP who was forced to resign in disgrace. But let’s just consider these Welsh elections in 2026. How concerned should the Labour Party, the Greens, the Lib Dems and played Cumbrae be about Nigel Farage and reform in the short term?

 

Beth Rigby Well, funnily enough, I was at a dinner, an awards dinner last night in which I didn’t win an award.

 

Coco Khan I’m sorry to hear that.

 

Beth Rigby I didn’t expect to because Billy Campbell won the award for his amazing investigative journalism. So, you know, I love him. But also, Will Hayward was nominated.

 

Coco Khan Oh we know him.

 

Nish Kumar We absolutely love him.

 

Beth Rigby Yes. Will.

 

Coco Khan He’s our friend of the show. Don’t steal him Beth.

 

Beth Rigby He’s mine now. He’s mine. I’ve got his number.

 

Coco Khan Okay. I see.

 

Beth Rigby I text him all the time.

 

Coco Khan Oh great.

 

Beth Rigby But we were talking about exactly this, and he said that Labour don’t know what’s going to hit them right. When the Senate elections next year, that that that reform could just sweep in and take dozens and dozens of seats and is interested because Farage launched the election campaign in Wales. As you said, they held their conference in Wales and they are really gunning for it. And you know, this like look, elections also are about momentum for parties. So if you think about it, you go into next year and they take loads of seats in Wales and that gives them momentum and that makes them a real presence there. And it is a headache for Labour and it’s a headache for the Conservatives if reform becomes the official opposition, if you like, in Welsh politics. And it will also come at a time when you know there will be local elections as well. And I think that’s going to be a big I think that’s going to be a big national story of next year, the rise of reform. And as I said, you know, voters there were not happy with some of the decisions the government has made that they have done the winter fuel allowance. People weren’t expecting that or my bill will go up in the supermarket. If your food bills are going up by 20%, it if the macro economy economics are good, but your life is better than it was. You’re not going to be sold on that. And at least now we have a very clear you can see what the Labour Government clearly are trying to do. Waiting lists, borders, cost of living. And I guess the calculation is if they can deliver some of that, people will have a reason to vote for them, not turn into the arms of reform.

 

Coco Khan I mean, if I was looking for any small silver lining and we spent time on this podcast talking about, you know, when Labour released its manifesto saying, it’s really great and really promising, but people’s lives are desperate. Is it enough? Does it go far enough? Will it actually change people’s material lives? Perhaps if I was being positive, I might say, well, now they know they absolutely have to do it because there are these terrifying populist threats. Yeah, maybe that could be one silver lining, but. Beth Rigby, thank you so much for joining us.

 

Beth Rigby I had a lovely time.

 

Coco Khan That’s good. We aim to please.

 

Beth Rigby I’ll come back and I come back next week with Will.

 

Coco Khan Oh, I see. I see what’s happening here. Now, as mentioned last week, the Labour Government has announced an end to the freezing of university fees. Next year, both tuition fees and maintenance loans in England will rise in line with inflation. The rise of 3.1% may not sound very much, but it’s an increase of 285 pounds, and it takes fees to a total of 9,535 pounds per year. But politically, it means a lot more. It’s the first rise in eight years and it comes after Labour had committed to abolishing student fees in 2017, but then abandoned its pledge, something the Tories aren’t letting them forget, by the way. They’re shouting U-turn at every chance they get.

 

Nish Kumar The fee rise has been welcomed by many universities as they face budget deficits, course closures and the fall in international students. But here on Pod Save the UK, we have crucial questions and the main ones are how are students and graduates feeling about this move and staff at universities? And ultimately, are there alternative solutions?

 

Coco Khan We asked you all to write in with your experiences and a huge thanks for the many responses we’ve had. We have tried to include as many as we can in the discussions that follow. So you know what? Let’s just get to it. Joining us first is Amira Campbell, president of the National Union of Students. Amira, welcome to Pod Save the UK.

 

Amira Campbell Thank you for having me.

 

Coco Khan So what was your reaction to hearing the government is increasing tuition fees? And does it make a difference to you that it came from a Labour government?

 

Amira Campbell I think it does make a difference. My initial reaction on the day was crap is going to be a long walk. No, no. But to be very serious. Tuition fees rising is always going to be unpopular. It’s never been popular in the UK. Obviously this is specifically in England. And it’s really interesting because when we go through the history of tuition fees, you think 1998, first introduce 1,000 pounds, 25% contribution from the student, 75% contribution to the state. When I say and at a place where the state contributes about 16%. Yeah, comparatively. So I guess for me like a reason tuition fees and it’s one of those where it’s like it’s almost it’s almost like crowdfunding for universities. And that’s like a small increase comparatively to some of the other increases that we see in history. But it’s not in the head that says we aren’t interested in turning back the tide. That has changed between the balance between states and students. Right. I mean, they sort of sweeten the blow with some broker stuff around maintenance. But the real question is, if Labour already interested in access, do they not recognize that raising tuition fees is one of those barriers?

 

Coco Khan Well, what they would say is, well, we have to we have no choice. There’s all these different problems. Do you think this tuition fee hike will actually fix any of those problems?

 

Amira Campbell No, because and universities know that it’s not going to fix the problem. Universities are just trying not to go broke this year. Right. This is a very short term patch. And I mean, it came with an announcement of a real review around higher education funding, etcetera, etcetera. The government know this is not going to fix that long term issue. And then with the piece that they’ve done around sort of national insurance, universities are arguing this sort of just balanced out the tax for them, not actually made an impact. But I mean, I think the government know that something needs to be done more long term. That’s why they’ve announced this review. And so we can only be hopeful that Labour government, that generally speaking out the two leading parties tends to be better for students. I’m happy to say though, that we do see a bit about for students and universities.

 

Nish Kumar What 17 year old Lister who will be affected by the rise, is actually written in to say that they think it’s a good thing as it gives universities a much needed cash injection. They also pointed out that the real villain was the last Tory government and the changes they made in 2020 to lowering the repayment threshold to 25,000 pounds when previously students only started to pay back their loans when they earned just over 27,000 pounds, that extended loans from 30 to 40 years, meaning many graduates will continue paying well into their 60s. Should we be pointing more fingers at that policy, or is it now just pointless to sort of even talk about the Conservative Party?

 

Amira Campbell You know I’m not afraid to vilify the Tories.

 

Coco Khan They make it easy don’t they?

 

Amira Campbell And that student obviously isn’t too. Yes, we need to point fingers at the repayment process because currently we’re sitting with a least progressive repayment process and the repayment process has always been sort of the UK’s way to soften the blow. But the fact that out of all sort of OECD’s, we contribute the least to us through education, right? All repayment process is our way of saying it’s not so bad. And the fact that it’s got worse than the Tory administration means that the we’d expect Labour to turn around and I’m hoping that will be in that review. I mean, one, we’re talking about that threshold for repayments. You come out of your studies, you earn 25 K APR and you’re already paying it back. That’s been fixed since 2007. So in 2007, what was would now be equivalent to paying back when you run about 41 K. Yeah. You know, so you’ve already got broke graduates the finances of can barely run if they’re living in London and living anywhere at the moment actually. And then they’re expected to be paying less on top of tax when they’re only earning 25 K. I mean it’s, it’s absolutely ridiculous. Then you’ve got the interest rates. I mean London economics did a report that showed that. Sort of women students end up paying over more eventually because of the way the gender wage gap, etc. Things around the interest piece changes that repayment process. So those inequalities, opportunities for Labour to turn around these things to make sure that our poorest students and our most vulnerable students who then graduate aren’t left with the greatest burden of turning that around.

 

Nish Kumar And there’s also this ever present problem of added interest. One of our listeners has written in to say they ended up with 100,000 pounds of debt from a six year veterinary degree. Once in work, they paid between 50 to 80 pounds in student loans every month. The interest on the loan has always been a lot higher. Two, six years after leaving university, the loan is nearing 115,000 pounds. They’ve written to us to say they absolutely feel paying back the loan is fair. There’s no point in increasing their repayments beyond what they pay now, as it’s always swallowed up by interest. So is this change going to further put off students or even stop them from doing certain degrees that are much needed in society? You know, we need doctors and we’re constantly told that we can’t have immigrant doctors come over, but we should be doing more to train our own British good British, solid salt of the earth pork sausage doctors but for associations, I do want to say, how can you square off medical degrees? Well, you know, education is again, so we’re looking at this as a how do we deal with this? Repayments is one problem, but interest is a huge part of that. Right. Is there not an argument? Is there a way that you could cap interest in student loans or at least reduce interest payments?

 

Amira Campbell I mean, one, it’s about a progressive interest system that’s actually tiered based on how much running, etc., etc.. Two, we could be more innovative whether I mean, last year there was some modeling that we did that showed that if you did progressive interest in a certain way, then you could reintroduce maintenance grants, which means that for your poorest students, you then come out of that study because obviously your poorer students who required the most maintenance and have the most debt to pay back. Right. And I mean, as you said, you’ve got 1.8 million students with 50,000 pounds debt, approximately some people nearing over 200,000, depending on the amount of study that they do, etc., etc.. And realistically, for most people, they’re not going to be able to pay it off. You know, we have the chance to make sure that the interest is burdening the people that and the most straight out of that study. So the people that go in and become millionaires, not that many of them, but those that do end up picking up that pieces. And then I think, like the whole narrative around migration in higher education is boggling to me. I mean, you’ve got countries in Europe like Germany, for instance, who will pay for both the tuition fee of secrecy and the maintenance for the students to come study abroad and to engage in that pace. And then we absolutely vilify our international students in the media here in this country, but also vilify them.

 

Coco Khan Free policy interest has always been unfair on poorer people. And it’s even even when you go and get a mortgage, like the more money you have upfront, the less you pay in your repayments. It’s it’s all set up to ensure that those who have the most pay the least. So I’m not surprised this has kind of happened. Hearing you talk about the maintenance grants really gave me a shock from the past because I got a maintenance grant. I was a poor kid from council house. I went to university. And I think I think it’s fair to say it changed my life. And I’m really glad I did it. And at different time when it was hard, but not as hard as it is now. I guess my question to you is, and I apologize if it’s still a big one. Is university still a vehicle for social mobility?

 

Amira Campbell And this is really interesting because I do still believe it is. I mean, yeah, likewise, raised in a council setting. Single mother etc etc etc. Went to university, go us! Yeah, like we got to be.

 

Coco Khan Go on mums. Give your mum a hug from me.

 

Amira Campbell You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. But but no, no. I do still believe that they are vehicles of social mobility. I just think that when we’re talking about access, money is probably one of the biggest indicators of that base. And if there isn’t money in student’s pockets while they’re starting, if they’re battling with that debt the whole way through, then it becomes less of that vehicle of social mobility. I mean, I remember there was a study done that apparently one of the biggest ways for sort of advancing socially or whatever you want to call it was for who you know. Right. And for meeting people. And the reality is, you go to university and you probably going to meet some posh people.

 

Coco Khan Yes.

 

Nish Kumar Ed Gamble.

 

Nish Kumar Don’t give Ed Gamble credit for your career.

 

Amira Campbell This is real. Wait which University did you go to?

 

Nish Kumar Durham.

 

Amira Campbell Durham? Of course.

 

Coco Khan Of course.

 

Nish Kumar The thinking man’s Oxbridge.

 

Amira Campbell Mmmhhh.

 

Coco Khan Said only by people in Durham.

 

Nish Kumar I feel very strongly like if this idea that like you to that you learn your degree is about 5% of what you learn at university. Yeah. Like I without going to university, there wouldn’t have been the opportunity created for me to do comedy in a completely safe environment. But yeah, who, you know, is a big part of it is supposed to be a kind of social leveler, right? Whenever people say, we need fewer people at university because too many people are going. Diversity, I always think, but who are you going to exclude from that? So that’s an important part of it. It’s not just about the degree.

 

Amira Campbell I mean, as you saying not 5% really fascinated me. I mean, I studied music at Birmingham and did all the freelance stuff, the exact tour, etc., got into student politics, ran a black student campaign Like I would not have been here without all of the stuff that I did around my studies.

 

Coco Khan It’s interesting because we all we all did arts degrees, basically. Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of these conversations we even just have now. Doctors. And it’s quite easy to understand it when you talk about an architecture and these things that require longer training. But it should be the same for the arts as well, right? That working class kids should be able to fulfill their artistic talents as well.

 

Nish Kumar In terms of maintenance loans, which are those are designed to cover costs. This should be the level, right? The maintenance loans. Yeah. So students living at home can now borrow an extra 267 pounds a year while one living away from home in London can borrow an extra 414 pounds a year. But does this go far enough? Like quite a few current students wrote in to say that their maintenance loans don’t cover the high cost of living and student accommodation, and it’s forcing them to get part time jobs, which doesn’t leave much energy or time for their degree or, for example, for doing comedy or writing the newspaper or involving yourself in student politics, which again, is what we’re talking about in terms of part of a university education. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that even after the uplift, the poor students will be entitled to borrow about 9% less than an equivalent student five years ago. What are your thoughts about maintenance loans?

 

Amira Campbell And the thing is, we’ve been screaming about maintenance loans and UC has been screwing up maintenance loans for over a decade now because initially they were created to cover the cost of living. Then it was like, your parents should be able to like contribute to the maintenance zone and cover a certain portion of it. Now we’re at a point where the amount that you’re expecting a parent to contribute is just not feasible. It’s not going to happen like it’s not even close. The reality is I still work 3 or 4 part time jobs simultaneously in my second and third year of study. That is how it is. We’ve normalized walking alongside studies. It’s become culturally sort of standard as a student. I mean, I was talking to someone who was like, Yeah, I used to party so much as a student. I was like, probably run out once a week, Miles. Realistically speaking, like, that’s not it’s not what it is. And a lot of senses, like there’s lots of positives to the experiences, like there is a joy to experiencing the working world. But I think there’s a difference between when you’re forced into it because you financially cannot have another viable option as opposed to when you choose to explore and engage in that. And that is the real attrition. I mean, student poverty is at an all time high. We’re talking I mean, we saw from 2022 to now Foodbank usage doubled among students. We saw 45% of students go without heating during the winter months period. And universities have thrown out many sort of student support funds and bits here, hardship funds popping up at every university campus and student unions having their community pantries and stuff where they’re literally feeding people breakfast in the morning. And this is like standard. Now.

 

Coco Khan Why do they want to make young people suffer so much? Like, why? Why? Like you shouldn’t have to suffer for your passions.

 

Nish Kumar Just in terms of the political consequences of this. Do you think the current Labour government is at risk of alienating younger voters?

 

Amira Campbell I mean, saying at risk as if it’s not already a present concept, is something to me.

 

Nish Kumar Further at risk.

 

Amira Campbell Further at risk? Absolutely. And, you know, I’ve been having calls, messages, tax. It’s time to mobilize, bring everyone together, hit the streets. But I think we need to be really, really tactical about how we push Labour into supporting students that they want to support. You know.

 

Coco Khan They traditionally have.

 

Amira Campbell Labour do want to support students. They’ve just not worked out or cracked out how to do it, clearly. And so, yeah, they’re at risk. I mean, we’re seeing students vote green with the students vote for fall. You know, we’re seeing young people particularly really struggle to see themselves, trusted, respected and represented in the parliament that seems to be making all the decisions for them. And we have an opportunity, particularly around cost of living, to do something that would bring so many communities, not just students, back into the room with Labour.

 

Coco Khan Amira Campbell, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

 

Amira Campbell Thank you for having me.

 

Coco Khan After the break, we’ll be speaking to Jo Grady, general secretary of the University and College Union, about how universities got into this mess in the first place and what else can be done.

 

Nish Kumar [AD]

 

Nish Kumar So it’s undeniable. There’s a crisis in higher education. 40% of England’s universities are expected to run budget deficits this year. There have been redundancies aplenty, and it’s rumored that several universities are on the brink of bankruptcy for the first time. How exactly did we get here?

 

Coco Khan Joining us now is Jo Grady. She’s the general secretary for the University and College Union and a lecturer at Sheffield University. Hello, Jo.

 

Jo Grady Hello.

 

Nish Kumar She’s also in Madrid on a conference. So we’re extra grateful for you for joining us and not just hanging out in what might be slightly better weather than it is in the United Kingdom at the moment.

 

Jo Grady It is. And even if they’ve bad weather they’ve got tapas. So yeah.

 

Coco Khan So listen, we’ve been talking about tuition fees. It’s obviously been a bit of a thorny subject since they were tripled under the Coalition government in 2012. I remember it well. I felt personally attacked at the time. It was meant to fix the education crisis. So why hasn’t it?

 

Jo Grady Well, it hasn’t fixed the education crisis for many reasons, because I would argue it was never intended to fix the crisis actually at the time. So what happened back in 2012 is we had a tuition fee hike. And so on the surface of that, you would say, okay, provides money to universities that they need. But if you just take a little bit below the surface, it didn’t replace the money that government then cuts in direct funding to higher education. So there was already a kind of a funding at that moment. And obviously what’s happened since because there’s been an understandable reluctance to increase fee, is the value of the money going to funding has has stagnated or has actually dropped because fees have stayed the same. So there was an issue with funding at the time that hasn’t been corrected since the model has been doubled down on and has been lobbied for more of the same, which isn’t going to fix the problem because it didn’t fix it at the time.

 

Coco Khan So one of the ways that universities have managed to stay afloat, it’s kind of been topped up by international students. So in 2023, one fifth of universities income came from overseas students. Obviously, we have also seen restrictions on student visas that the Conservatives introduced at the start of this year that saw applications drop. I mean, just just on the topic of using international students to plug this gap, is that right? Is that ethical? Does that not have knock on effects to to all of the students?

 

Jo Grady The issue is, is that the fee system that was really introduced in 2012, it didn’t fix any underlying funding problems. It increased them and it into introduced a really kind of cozy market, which, as you said, stalls the sector into pursuing business models that have made the sectors finances inherently unstable and has created massive wealth inequalities between older and VC universities and some of the newer universities. And the way in which international students have been caught up in that is should be really horrifying to everybody. So I’ll I’ll give you an example. You know, international students during the height of the pandemic or we didn’t know as much as we might want to have known about the virus, but we did know it was highly contagious. And, you know, nation states were closing borders to try and decrease travel. Some universities were actually chartering private jets to fly international students to the UK. Yes. When we knew what that meant was they were going to be stuck in incredibly expensive accommodation, not having access to any support structures, learning online how incredibly irresponsible and unethical and all of that is to plug a volatile funding regime which sees institutions, whether they are international, all home students trying to stockpile students to get as much funding in as possible.

 

Nish Kumar We’ve talked a lot about students. Understandably. We should also talk about staff at universities because another way the costs have been kept down is via an erosion to staff pay. One of our listeners who works at university has written in to say if the salary at the top of their pay grade had kept pace with inflation over the last 15 years, they’d be 10,000 pounds better off. Now, what that amounts to is, in real terms, an 18% pay cut. And because higher education is effectively a monopoly and many staff are specialists, it means they can’t move for a pay rise and often feel stuck. How bad is the the other sort of side of this crisis, which is staff pay and how that translates into staff morale at universities?

 

Jo Grady Yeah, I mean, it’s a really important topic to cover. So staff pay across the board. It’s fallen by 6% in real terms. Since tuition fees are increased in 2020. So this means that the fees paid, staff wages, it just needs to be stopped straight away. And universities have developed business models that only function if they can exploit staff. So 1 in 5 academics, according to our surveys, work two extra days per week on top of their contract hours. So academics regularly working every day, every week, almost two thirds report feeling emotionally drained. And almost 8 in 10 staff say they have to work very intensively, often or always. Over half the showing signs of probable depression and over a third are employed on some form of fixed term contract. And what that means across the sector is 90,000 people. They were the people who were doing a bulk of the teaching. And they’re on insecure contracts. That’s enough to fill Wembley Stadium. And when you compare that with vice chancellors, so the people who run universities, the CEOs which are famous over universities, there are three salaries, 325,000 pounds a year. When the vice chancellor of Oxford University stepped down. And last a year ago, she got a 1 million pound exit package. And that university had so far in call to try and maintain that some academics that they’ve employed for over 15 years were technically employees of the university. So excitations just kind of cut their contracts. It’s an insane sector to work in that people assume enjoy secure conditions and decent pay. But it doesn’t at all. And it’s the dirty secret of higher education. And the current government really needs to get a handle on it because the current funding model has been remote paid for by the people who are running it. They should not be being handed more money without some serious preconditions about what they’re going to do to improve their lot for students, improve conditions for staff and ensure that we have really high quality teaching and research going forward.

 

Nish Kumar So there’s a crisis of morale and real, real terms of pay cuts for staff. We’re also talking about a situation where only 30% of students think their course is value for money. We’ve had several listeners right in saying that universities fired technical staff, which means they can’t access the full benefits that they cause. What does a better model actually look like? How can we pod save the universities?

 

Jo Grady Now, I would argue that we need an alternative funding model before the general election. We put forward a number of suggestions to Labour as to how they could do those things. And you know, we suggested that they could tax profiteering businesses. They could do that quite easily. You know, a lot of the reason people are encouraged to go to universities that they can earn more in the Labour market. Well, businesses profit a lot from a highly educated workforce. We model corporation tax by 4.3%. It would solve the university funding crisis immediately. You know, I think if the government are going to give more money to the sector, they need to make sure that Vice chancellor pay is decreased. You know, they need to end that marketization of the sector that keeps bringing more and more profit making the profit incentive in higher education is huge, not just through fees for all of the private landlords, all of the private buildings. Now that rent out a space to students, such students are a huge sector of the economy and site of value extraction in a really, really unethical way. You know, all these vultures circling. And also, when we think about student loan debt, debt, that the government could just change the conditions as to when and why and how you have to pay it off. Like we wouldn’t allow any other section of our society to be treated in such a way. And yet, you know, students won’t even include it in the budget they were and after after announcement.

 

Coco Khan What was interesting when you were saying about a tax on businesses who benefit from graduates, because that’s just a question I’ve been having knocking around my head so much of the conversation about university. When I went to universities because I had a great passion for English and I just felt I was quite good at that. And I want it to be an environment where I could be good at something and take those, you know, and grow as a person. Yeah, probably that was a part of me that. So I’ll be nice to have a bit of money and get a nice job and you know, but I never had it wasn’t so big in my mind, shall we say. Whereas I think now it’s education to get these jobs. But isn’t that a myth now? Do you think maybe the higher education sector needs to be honest when they’re in getting these young people potentially paying their loans until they’re 60 years old, that actually, sadly, this this circumstance is not going to do that.

 

Jo Grady I think there needs to be a huge dose of honesty around all of this. I’ll use myself as an example. You know, working class girl at the time from white West Yorkshire born in 1984. My. It was a minor. There’s definitely no way that ever intended on me to go to university like work. And he would. And I went because I really wanted to go. And, you know, and the idea that I would be put off doing that and it wasn’t about I’m not going to when it was about hindsight, I want to go. Marketization has turned people’s relationship expectations of university into something that that wasn’t necessarily what university was supposed to be. And I think that was the peak of a broader conversation here. You know, we have had 15 years of austerity. We’ve had, whether it’s university colleges, adult learning, decimated by the Tories, we’ve had communities feeling and in some cases genuinely, you know, be left behind. No investment, no prospects, no hope, no one. They said no escape. And then you’re saying to people and the only way you could get out of that is to sign yourself up to falsify files, rhymes with the death. And then actually at the end, you’re not going to get the golden ticket future that you saw on. Like, there’s probably a reason why lots of people feel that there’s no prospects for them. So I think, you know, there needs to be a different funding framework because I think there’s been a complete erosion and corruption of what higher education can and should be. And it’s been done in the model at the market.

 

Nish Kumar So in terms of the short term future, I’m interested to know whether there are further rises on the horizon. In September, some university bosses suggested that the fees should rise as high as 12,500 pounds a year if costs are to be covered. Surely that’s completely unworkable, or is this essential in the short term for the sort of future of higher education?

 

Jo Grady In my opinion, handing more fee income over to vice chancellors, if I could, giving gasoline to an arsonist? Right. They have lobbied for a model that doesn’t work. Our union did some calculations on the sticker that they put forward, and we calculated that if these increase to that much, 6 in 10 students wouldn’t pay their loan back. If you needed a better example that the system does not work on its own terms, it’s that insufficient amounts of students will ever earn enough to pay back. Why keep doubling down on that kind of model? It doesn’t work on its own terms. The only way out of this and you know, vice chancellors don’t want to hear it because it means more regulation for them. Labour possibly don’t want to hear it because it means backing a completely different model is developing a different funding framework, a funding framework that does not attach pounds, fines to students and a funding framework that, you know, puts more measures and accountability on vice chancellors who’ve been running universities as businesses that only work by exploiting staff and students so far.

 

Coco Khan Interesting hearing you speak because there is a false narrative about the higher education sector that full of lefties. And then actually what we’re talking here about, it’s like, you know, bear knows commercialism, free market economics. And just just quickly, though, you said you you made alternative funding proposals to the government with your union. They don’t seem to be listening. Do you have any hope for this Labour government? You know, what’s the plan here? Do you know?

 

Jo Grady I do. I do have hope I wouldn’t be in this gig, you know, if I didn’t have a position. I think the issue is how willing are the Treasury on the leadership of Labour to do something radical is necessary? In my opinion. There is no way out of it. So I don’t want to rule out that they couldn’t do it. They’ve increased fees for 12 months. They’ve made it a review, as you know. I’m really glad that you’re covering this on your podcast because more people need to really understand how easily fixable the crisis in higher education is and how currently exploited it is.

 

Nish Kumar Um Jo, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK. We really appreciate your time and.

 

Coco Khan Now, dear listeners, we’re all desperately in need of some TLC, so we’re going to share some advice that’s been pouring in since last week on how to deal with and I believe this is the official term, the clusterfuck that is descending upon us. We’ve had plenty of suggestions. First up, Amy says, Hope you’ve had a few cool martinis and cozy toes to get us through these times. She’s made up some cocktails.

 

Nish Kumar Surely, as Coco Ito’s, she has spelled cojotis. But cocojitos surely.

 

Coco Khan Well, I mean, you can take it up with Amy if you want. I mean, I think Coco jito’s also works, and she actually has provided a recipe for the Kito with a spin on the traditional ingredients in a mojito. So the spirit is white tears rum. It’s got a score like it is. It’s really funny. The sugar additions. Sugar are good y.

 

Nish Kumar No sugar. God.

 

Coco Khan Why sugar God, Why? I think it’s like, all good.

 

Nish Kumar Like, God, Why?

 

Coco Khan You know, this is really hard sugar. Why? Why?

 

Nish Kumar Why are you doing a pirate voice in the middle of this thing? Where’s the pirate voice coming from?

 

Coco Khan We’re talking about rum.

 

Coco Khan It lends itself to pirate-ness.

 

Nish Kumar I think it’s supposed to be sugar. Our God. Why?

 

Coco Khan Yeah. You think you’re saying it clearer?

 

Nish Kumar Yeah, it’s. Well, I’m not putting an arrrg spin on it.

 

Coco Khan Okay. Okay. And then the next spot is the lime addition. But instead of adding lime juice, she says lime, no juice. These like, no justice. Lime no juice tice. So it’s got me thinking. Well, we all put in our post-Trump cocktail recipes.

 

Nish Kumar Arsenic.

 

Coco Khan Is that it? Is that even a cocktail if its just one thing?

 

Nish Kumar Arsenic and tonic.

 

Coco Khan Arsenic until tonic is like our stage name. You’re off making. I’m tonic. And together, we’ll get you through. I was thinking more like, you know, a bit of sour because it’s sour time.

 

Nish Kumar Bitters.

 

Coco Khan Shaken and stirred.

 

Nish Kumar We’re definitely yeah, I would say at the moment we’ve got to get everybody to stirred is stirred is like it’s stirring. You’re stirring a lot of resistance or you’re stirring a kind of oppositional movement. But at the moment everyone I think is just in shock. I think everybody is inside. Yeah, I keep I keep looking at Labour and peas. I don’t care what anybody say. You look at their eyes, there’s fear in those eyes. There’s a huge, huge disconnect between what the mouth is like and what the eyes are saying.

 

Coco Khan Get like a nice sort of cocktail for our doomy times. Yeah. And we can offer them up to our politicians and come on this show. Actually, if any of our listeners have any ideas for a cocktail for our terrible time.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Doom based cocktail. They have to be. They have to be strong. You don’t have.

 

Coco Khan To be very I and I don’t know what a cocktail for our doom base time would be. Yeah but I have been thinking. I know what the haircut is. Well, the mullet.

 

Nish Kumar The mullet.

 

Coco Khan Yet? So, babe, you know, saying the mullet to back this way. Mullet.

 

Nish Kumar I will say it does seem like every man under 30 is.

 

Coco Khan Has got a mullet.

 

Nish Kumar All mullet, right? They all sort of look like Paul Mescal.

 

Coco Khan Don’t say that. That’s what they want to hear.

 

Nish Kumar As in from the mullet perspective, the face in the body is arrail.

 

Coco Khan Okay, I’m going to get into that because I was thinking I was honestly yesterday just staring out my kitchen window thinking about the mullet. The mullet has been in every sort of decade in a kind of counter-cultural way. Yeah, since the 60s. The Beatles appeared in the 70s. And then I.

 

Nish Kumar Don’t think you can call what the Beatles had mullets.

 

Coco Khan They are Mullets.

 

Nish Kumar The Beatles. It was a it’s like a it was a specific type of mullet. So I think you just maybe longer.

 

Coco Khan Anyway, anyway, look, you know, when we were growing up. Yeah. Britpop, there was a lot of mullets then and now the mullet is about the mullet.

 

Nish Kumar Well, it’s in Britpop, of course.

 

Coco Khan So we might have had a.

 

Nish Kumar Mullet in Britpop.

 

Coco Khan The guy from the Charlatans. Anyway, look. What is it?

 

Nish Kumar You know what it is? I think You think Mullet is long hair.

 

Coco Khan Is business at the front, party at the back. I know what a mullet is. Anyway look, my point it.

 

Nish Kumar I’m pretty sure the brit pop haircuts were party all over. Like, I don’t think there was any business.

 

Coco Khan My point is Nish. My point is, is that I think it’s fine that things come back. We should always have a dialog with the past. But in general, what you want to do is take the good things from the past forward and leave behind the bad. Yeah, The fact that the mullet persists tells you we don’t learn and that is why we’re all fucking doomed. Anyway, that’s a long time, but.

 

Nish Kumar I’m putting it out there. I don’t think, you know, a malaise. I think you think any long hair is a mullet. I think you think you have a mullet.

 

Coco Khan I do not have a mullet. How dare you? Anyway.

 

Nish Kumar We’ve also had some advice from Generation Alpha, which is the generation below Gen Z on how to deal with Kemi Badenoch. The name is Amy JSW. She says my ten year old twin daughters just watched your latest episode, by the way. I’m a huge advocate of letting ten year olds watch this podcast. They need to learn about the world and they need to learn what a mullet is. Ten year old daughter has just watched your latest episode and said Kemi is a mean girl. Immediate swerve.

 

Coco Khan I completely get what this lovely ten year old is saying. Yeah, instincts are correct, but the only small problem with it is that all the mean girls at the intermingle is quite nice, and I don’t think any is quite nice.

 

Nish Kumar No, no, I think. I don’t think this is mean. Girls capital and Capital G are simply mean girls. It doesn’t mean I don’t think this is I don’t think this is made girls like the videos of the film mean girls.

 

Coco Khan What happens at the end of that film. I don’t know. They all make up.

 

Nish Kumar They all. Well, no, essentially they all realize that everybody is insecure. And actually it’s not fair to pick on anybody. And there’s a kind of sort of trust fall exercise thing at the end where they all sort of talk about things that they’re insecure about themselves. And actually, it’s a sort of you know, it’s a it’s a nice moment of young people realizing that whilst they’re sort of divided, they will have more to come. I, I, I do know a lot about me. You seem.

 

Coco Khan Quite moved when you are telling me. I could see the emotion in your eyes.

 

Nish Kumar  I, I do know about. I do know a lot about mean girls. And that’s it. Thank you very much for listening to Pod Save the UK. As always, we want to hear your thoughts. Email us any non dating profiles at PSUK@ReducesListening.co.uk.

 

Coco Khan Don’t forget to follow us at Pod Save the UK on Instagram TikTok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. Sometimes we put exclusive things on there, darling.

 

Nish Kumar Pod Save The UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

 

Coco Khan I really hoped you would also join me on the little funny voice.

 

Nish Kumar I thought it was a nice way to end the show.

 

Coco Khan I was hoping you were going to  do the voice back?

 

Nish Kumar I thought you do, sort of Joanna Lumley voice was a nice way to end the show.

 

Coco Khan Okay, well, end it. Ahem. The producer was May Robson with additional production from our multitrack fellow, Derek Armah.

 

Nish Kumar Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. And our video editor was Narda Smilionage.

 

Coco Khan It’s so nice, isn’t it? It’s so velvety. Thanks to our engineer, Ryan Macbeth, the head of production Dan Jackson.

 

Nish Kumar Executive producers are Anushka Sharma and Madeline Herringer with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

 

Coco Khan And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays, on Amazon, Spotify, or Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts darling.

 

Nish Kumar That got alarmingly sexual at the end.

 

Coco Khan I know. It felt. It felt it for me as well.