War – what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. But this week we found out that defending the UK from it is going to cost us a lot of money. And the losers will be the world’s poorest people – the money for Britain’s boosted defence budget will come from foreign aid.

 

Sir Ed Davey – leader of the Lib Dems – tells Coco he has an alternative: bigger taxes on big tech (and some other ideas). And Coco goes a bit Yoko Ono, wondering how we give peace a chance.

 

Zoë Grünewald steps in for Nish as the pod asks what Macron can teach Starmer about Trump wrangling. And we send out a search for Kemi Badenoch… Has anyone seen her? As Ed Davey presents a credible opposition voice to the Government – the Tory leader is missing in action: last seen in a right wing podcast vortex.

 

While Kemi struggles to cut through, the Climate Change Commission has thought of an ingenious way to get us to act on net zero. The humble kebab.

 

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Guests
Ed Davey
Zoë Grünewald

 

Audio Credits
UK Gov
PBS News
ABC News

 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

 

 [AD]

 

Zoë Grünewald Hi, this is Pod Save the UK. I’m Zoë Grünewald.

 

Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan. This week Keir Starmer is preparing to visit the white House. But with Trump clinging to Putin, can he persuade the US president to change his tune on Ukraine? I’ll be speaking to the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Ed Davey.

 

Zoë Grünewald And later, what is Kemi Badenoch? No, seriously, have you seen anything from her?

 

Coco Khan Have I seen anything from her? Actually I haven’t, which I’m kind of fine with me, but I’m probably not the right audience because my entire XVI is just Rupert Lowe.

 

Zoë Grünewald Oh, no.

 

Coco Khan Rupert Lowe and hardcore porn. I think. Weird combination.

 

Zoë Grünewald I didn’t know you were a Rupert Lowe superfan.

 

Coco Khan Don’t try it. Don’t do this fake news to me. This is not fair. But anyway, we’ll also be asking why the official opposition is missing in action. Zoe, it’s lovely to have you back filling in finish this week. He’s on tour in the States. And you’re here with me.

 

Zoë Grünewald I’m here with you and I’m very happy about it, so thank you.

 

Coco Khan Well, before we get into the big news of the week, I need to tell you about this Elon Musk story. I hate talking about this man, obviously, but it’s just a bit mad. So Musk is leading the US Department of Government Efficiency, or Doge, and he issued hundreds of thousands of federal employees with an ultimatum. And it basically said to respond to an email with the subject line, what did you do last week? They had to respond to this or resign. So yeah, the email said please reply with approximately five bullets of what you accomplished last week and CC your manager. Musk then followed up on X. Failure to respond will be taken as a resignation. So I guess, Zoe, the question is what have you been doing?

 

Zoë Grünewald Oh, this is like every worker’s worst nightmare, right? This is actually why I went freelance. I used to have recurring nightmares about my manager asking me to provide five examples of what I’d done that week. I’ve actually been quite productive. I’m writing a piece about how the far right is obsessed with violence against women and girls.

 

Coco Khan I can see you sort of shifting in your seat.

 

Zoë Grünewald I’m like, I’ve done this. This is a conversation I only ever need to have between myself. Now I’m freelancing on my account at once a day.

 

Coco Khan Okay, okay.

 

Zoë Grünewald So I’m not used to it. And apart from that, I’ve just been enjoying lots of great TV.

 

Coco Khan Oh, that’s good too. Yeah. Do you know what I’ve been up to?

 

Zoë Grünewald I of course I do.

 

Coco Khan I have done the greatest accomplishment of all time. I changed an NHS medical appointment. Do you know how hard that is?

 

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, I do. I do know how hard that is.

 

Coco Khan I had to go into training. Every morning waking up like da da da daaa Rocky music. Today Coco, you are not going to let her hang up on you. You’re going to phone at eight. Am you going to sit in that queue? You’re going to press every option on the telephone menu until you get a human being.

 

Zoë Grünewald I am very impressed.

 

Coco Khan Thank you.

 

Zoë Grünewald Did you manage to get one for this year?

 

Coco Khan Yeah.

 

Zoë Grünewald That’s incredible.

 

Coco Khan I know.

 

Zoë Grünewald Congratulations.

 

Coco Khan Hard work, hard work.

 

Zoë Grünewald All right. On to people who have definitely been making their jobs count. This week, Keir Starmer has made a massive announcement that the UK will increase defense spending to 2.5% of GDP by 2027, funded by cuts to foreign aid. Here’s a clip of Starmer on Tuesday.

 

Clip In the short term, it can only be funded through hard choices, and in this case, that means we will cut our spending on development assistance, moving from 0.5% of Guinea today to 0.3% in 2027, fully funding our increased investment in defense.

 

Coco Khan Now, as we recalled on Wednesday, Starmer will be heading to Washington tomorrow for his first visit to the white House for the biggest test yet, really, of Starmer’s diplomatic negotiating skills. So, Zoe, what’s the meeting going to be about?

 

Zoë Grünewald So Starmer is essentially going to want to try and persuade the US to offer some security guarantees for Ukraine that will contain, rather than embolden, Russia. So there are lots of questions about this kind of backstop. So if there was a deal that had been agreed, there would have to be provisions in place, potentially boots on the ground from European allies, but also maybe the US as well, that would prevent Russia from seeing an opportunity to go back into Ukraine and invade again. They’re also probably going to talk about trade. That kind of has gone on the backburner because Ukraine has been in the forefront as well. But obviously we know that Trump is potentially considering putting tariffs on the UK. And so I think what Keir Starmer is going to want to do is try and sweetness a little bit by offering maybe some Concessions to Trump, maybe over agriculture, for example, to try and convince him to not punish the UK as part of his domestic economic agenda.

 

Coco Khan Well, because Trump has been saying for a while that he wants NATO allies to to spend more and in effect, he got his wish. Okay, it’s not the amount that Trump wanted, but it’s it’s some move towards it. Do you think that will be enough to placate him?

 

Zoë Grünewald Well, I think there’s a real general feeling that 2.5% is not enough. And it’s not soon enough because it’s by 2027. But I think what is maybe more key here is the Starmers language. So he spoke, you know, pretty passionately in the House of Commons about the need for this, about how they didn’t want to cut foreign aid, about how, you know, the Labour Party still say foreign aid is valuable, but they note they note that the global situation has changed. And and I suspect for Donald Trump and for what he wants to do for the US, which is bolster its position in the world, make it the kind of strongmen of the world that just having the power and the influence to get countries to change their position will be enough to placate him. I think this is more about the politics than about the numbers at the minute, whether that will hold in the long run, if the U.S. continues to feel like they’re overpaying compared to other countries, is a different question.

 

Coco Khan Do you think the fact they chose the foreign aid budget rather than domestic budgets, was because they know that they would be extremely unpopular? I’ve got a little statistic here that says that, you know, a YouGov poll found that 50% of Britons support an increase in defense spending. But when asked what was more important, defense spending or public services spending, just 30% said it is more important to increase spending on defense.

 

Zoë Grünewald I think there’s a couple of things here. I think the first is that there is cross-party consensus on the need to increase defense spending. Going for the foreign aid budget, as opposed to other kind of public services is interesting because actually there is a lot of popularity for foreign aid in this country. Politicians haven’t done very well selling what foreign aid does. I think there’s that feeling that it’s often misused That it is goes to kind of building communities when we’ve got problems at home. Actually, foreign aid keeps us safe. And there’s strong arguments on both the left of the political spectrum, on the right of the political spectrum for the the utility of foreign aid. You know, you’ll hear conservatives making impassioned arguments for foreign aid as well as politicians on the left. But it’s quite an easy thing to go for, especially because we’ve seen Kemi Badenoch going for foreign aid recently. Donald Trump obviously cut the US’s own foreign aid budget. It’s one of those things where I think it’s probably the low hanging fruit, the easiest to go for because it has the public doesn’t particularly like or understand it, and other politicians seem to be targeting it at the minute.

 

Coco Khan You know, when you look at what the foreign aid budget goes towards, yes, of course there’s subjects and projects that are, I would say, a question of like ethics and morality, particularly in terms of, you know, refugees and asylum seekers, but it is also a form of soft power. Interestingly, David Lammy, when Donald Trump announced his cuts, he called it a strategic mistake, which is kind of strange. It was only a couple of weeks ago that you said that, so it’s a bit of an awkward situation for the Foreign Secretary. I mean, he argued at the time that it would allow China to fill the gap and extend its influence. I mean, that’s surely still a concern.

 

Zoë Grünewald I think so. You know, there is a feeling that if we as the West stop providing money to various projects or various communities that have relied on foreign aid, there is a vaccine which another wealthy country who we might not have our interests aligning with could fill it. And I think that is the worry here. And you’re absolutely right that there is community and nation building and foreign aid. But there’s also things like vaccination programs. You know, there is a real argument that foreign aid actually keeps us safer in the long term. It may prevent crises, it may prevent war, it may prevent people from getting sick. And more pandemics. Now, actually cutting aid doesn’t just have domestic implications for those countries. It has global ones as well.

 

Coco Khan No, definitely. And I do want to also just flag quickly that ActionAid, a charity that works with women and girls living in poverty, described suitcase decision to slash the aid budget as reckless. And I think as a two women, I think we should definitely shout that out. So now look onto the meeting with Trump. Starmer will certainly be taking notes from the French president, Emmanuel Macron. He struck the balance between flattery and gentle resistance. The meeting began with an absolute death grip handshake. Here’s a clip from ABC news. Okay, so we’re watching them, mate. They’re patting each other on the arm and now we’ve got the handshake. Still shaking. We’re still shaking. Oh, no, we’re not letting go. We’re still shaking. We’re looking at the camera shake. Do you think that had to break first? Oh, was it Donald? Was it Emmanuel? It’s so hard to tell.

 

Zoë Grünewald I guess in that situation, you have to squeeze back, right? Oh, you have to out squeeze the person who’s squeezing you. Oh, this is why I can never be a politician.

 

Coco Khan Apparently, that handshake, the showdown of the handshake and a bit of a long history apparently happens every single time. So I do wonder if they’re in the back room. Like using the hand exercise machine, like. Oh, we will show you. Another little interesting tidbit is that Macron called Trump Dear Donald. Four times during the meeting. He slapped his neck and even in an absolute show of diplomatic prowess. Fact checked him on camera right within the Oval Office. Here’s a clip from PBS news.

 

Clip Just so you understand. Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back. No, in fact, to be to be frank. We paid. We paid 60% of the total effort, and it was screwed. Like the US loans guarantee grants. And we we provided the money, to be clear.

 

Zoë Grünewald He didn’t like that did he?

 

Coco Khan I think he did like it. I don’t know. Maybe I misinterpret Donald Trump’s expressions, but I feel like he’s just sitting there thinking, France. Oh, look at me. I’m in France. I’m talking to France.

 

Zoë Grünewald He does do a sort of handshake, which is like, these are just fact they’re not important. What’s important is what I’m saying. It’s good to see somebody fact-checking Donald Trump live on camera, because we don’t really get that. Yeah, yeah.

 

Coco Khan Yeah, yeah. It really tells you about the power of the charm offensive, doesn’t it? The said the French president practically skipped out of this tete a tete, with the US president lavishing praise on his very special relationship with France. Zoe, Starmer, can you see? Can he deliver this?

 

Zoë Grünewald Starmer’s not Hugh Grant in love, actually? Obviously, you know, he’s not going to stand up and do a kind of rousing speech.

 

Coco Khan Not going to do a national stereotype.

 

Zoë Grünewald No. All the dogs. Thankfully. But I do think storm is probably at his best when he’s making a case for something. And obviously this comes from his background as a lawyer. You know, he’s good on detail. We saw that when he was really skewering Johnson over Partygate. Boris Johnson back in the day, he was really good at building a case, bringing the details, putting them to him. And if you dealing with someone like Boris Johnson or like Donald Trump, who were a light on truth, you know, they’re not that bothered about facts. They just kind of bluster on and hope for the best. That can be quite good. But I think the problem is Keir Starmer. He just doesn’t have that kind of leadership quality. He’s more managerial and I think he’s nervous as well. He’s nervous about what the US can do. The UK is in a very economically precarious situation. We’re caught between the US and the EU. Macron is stronger because he’s inside the EU. He has kind of the bluster of the rest of the union behind him, whereas the UK, although in some ways it can be positive that they have historically acted as that bridge between the US and Europe. Trump is the unexpected force here, and I think Keir Starmer is just very, very nervous about dealing with this. We also have remember he’s only been prime minister for what is it, nine months or something. This isn’t the challenge. I think he thought he would be dealing with this early on in his premiership. So he’ll be good on some things. But I think on that kind of putting Trump in his place, probably not so much.

 

Coco Khan And what do you think Trump is going into this meeting thinking? What does he want from it?

 

Zoë Grünewald There are things that the US wants. So you know tariffs as we spoke about before that’s the big elephant in the room. The UK really wants a trade deal probably focused on tech and digital services. Trump will probably want concessions on agriculture maybe on drug pricing as well. There are things that they both want from each other. It’s not just that the UK is going in cup in hand, hoping that the US will give them something. But you know Trump. He likes to display strength. That’s how he is bolstering the US’s economy. That’s how he’s bolstering the US, especially in the world. He’s going in as a leader who has total power in control and in some ways, giving him that and stroking his ego is probably the best way to get him to also do things for you. The other thing the summer probably will offer Trump is a full state visit. This was sort of rumored in the papers over the weekend. He’ll also offer him an address to both UK Parliament, so we might see Donald Trump do a speech here in the UK, which, you know, would be a very interesting one. Politically, I think, though, you know, when you look at the MPs who’ve been quite critical of Donald Trump in Parliament, how’s that going to go down?

 

Coco Khan I think it’s also worth mentioning that, you know, lot’s been made about Macron and his approach. But, you know, he did struggle to pin Trump down the one issue which he made headway on an apparent acceptance of European peacekeeping forces inside Ukraine in the event of cease fire, was later called into question. Trump has been deliberately vague, saying that he had asked Putin and Putin had not objected. Perhaps personal relations are not everything here, and I think that is just something to for us to bear in mind, particularly with these volatile leaders.

 

[AD]

 

Coco Khan And now, after the break, I’ll be talking to Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey about the difficult business of standing up to Donald Trump and golden toilets.

 

Zoë Grünewald Oh, golden toilets.

 

Plot twist.

 

Coco Khan [AD]

 

Coco Khan Joining us now on Pod Save the UK is leader of the Liberal Democrats, sir Ed Davey. Welcome, Ed.

 

Sir Ed Davey Hi, Coco. Nice to be here.

 

Coco Khan You’ve got a bit of a reputation as the fun guy of politics, I think. Who could forget the bungee jumping and the paddleboarding stunts of the election campaign, which I have just as a small tangent, like I feel for you because I’ve got a reputation as being the, like, fun party friend. And sometimes, you know what? I don’t want to be that. I just want to be taken seriously. Do you feel the pressure?

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, to be honest, most of my time in politics, I’ve been doing serious stuff, from the economy to health to the environment, whatever. And I take my job very seriously, actually. However, the key thing is, I think you’ve got to make people laugh and smile and cry and and get emotional about politics as well. And I think the problem is, too many people on the left, on progressive politics and the left almost take themselves too seriously. And I think that turns people off. And I think, well, I wouldn’t ever want to eat their policies and values. If you look at what some people on the right are doing. They’re engaging with people in in funny ways that actually seem to be working. So I think if you don’t try out different things and and then also be true to yourself, right? You know, I quite like having a bit of fun. I think and then you show that then I think you’ve got a chance of grabbing people’s attention. And it’s been a failure of progressives that they have learned that from the likes of Johnson and Trump and others, frankly.

 

Coco Khan The authenticity thing, something that we’ve been talking about on this podcast a lot, and actually, you’re now one of the few voices in Parliament that’s willing to actually call Donald Trump out to actually authentically say, no, mate, this is not really on. So on Monday, we heard that the US voted alongside Russia, Belarus and North Korea against the resolution in support of Ukraine. You called it a wake up call to those cheerleading Trump in our country. So actually, my very first question who were the cheerleaders go on naming shame.

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, I think it’s really something that loads in the Conservative Party. This reform people in parts of the right leaning media. And I think it’s quite shocking. I think they haven’t learned the lessons of history. They haven’t looked at the facts in front of them. And I think typically with Faraj and reform, the sort of the boot licking of Trump on the back slapping of mosque, I mean, it makes it sticks in my core. It is. I think it’s probably turning some of their own voters off. Quite shocking. You know, I always thought he was a bit of a plastic patriot, to be honest. And the moment he seems to be doing Trump’s bidding more than undoing what’s in Trump’s interest, more than what’s in the UK’s interest. So he sees hardly patriot, is he?

 

Coco Khan What are you thinking about Labour, though? Because they are. They’re walking something of a tightrope. They have to show diplomatic support for the new administration, but they also want to stand up for Ukraine. But they’re also quite clearly afraid of pissing off Trump. Would you count that as effectively cheerleading on.

 

Sir Ed Davey Not only is inside different, to be fair to them. I mean, if you’re in the UK, Prime means you have to try to reach out to the president, United States, whoever they are. And America has been our longstanding ally, right. However, here’s the here’s the difference. I think sometimes the best way to talk to a friend is to be very clear and candid. And if you look at Trump and his history, if he smells weakness or desperation, he’ll just walk away with you. And I think although he would like it, I think being clear and strong, showing you have alternatives like looking the European colleagues, working with our Commonwealth colleagues in Canada, India and so on. I think that shows that we’re not so reliant on him as he thinks we are.

 

Coco Khan But I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head that he’s someone who is personality driven. He likes to work with people he likes. And so there is always a risk if you stand up to him And tell him some hard truths. Perhaps he will respect it, but perhaps he wouldn’t. I mean, this might be a problem that you face yourself. So I notice that Elon Musk recently called you and we quote a sniveling cretin. Congratulations on that, by the way. I think if if Elon despises you, you’re doing something right. You know, if you found yourself having to work with his administration, what would you do? Surely there’d be consequences to the the outspokenness.

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, here’s a few things. J.D. Vance, not someone I would normally reference. But the vice president, he did call Trump Hitler in the past. Or the nearest thing America had to Hitler. And he’s now his vice president. So you Trump quite easy to get over this thing and you will get over it if you make it clear that you’d like to be his friend. But if he’s if he plays the Falklands a bit of an idiot and sells America short and sells Max, I assure that you’re not going to play with him today. I thought Macron didn’t do too badly. The the Oval Office of the day. So I think it’s possible to do it.

 

Coco Khan And he does seem to like Macron as well. So that that doesn’t seem to have have backfired.

 

Sir Ed Davey I mean, Macron was do was pouring praise and sycophancy and then then very carefully saying what he wants to say in Trump’s hearing when they’re both on camera. I thought it was quite a masterclass, actually.

 

Coco Khan Let me talk to you about defense spending though. So you’ve been saying that spending needs to go up. Today, the government announced plans to do just that, promising 2.5% of GDP. The big surprise, though, in Starmers speech, was how he intends to pay for this increase. So it’s our international aid budget. It’s obviously attracted immediate criticism from organizations like Save the Children. They’ve called it a betrayal of the world’s most vulnerable children. What do you think of this?

 

Sir Ed Davey You’re right. We have been arguing for higher defense spending and that because of the statement we support. But we have put forward other ways of funding it. So we had said you could increase something called the digital services tax, which is a current tax at 2%, we reckon, but it’s 10%. It hits 20. Multinational companies, extremely profitable. Well off companies. Quite a lot of them. Us tech companies. I’m sure they’re willing to pay for the defense, and obviously they’re very rich. So I hope they don’t mind supporting the poorest in the world, too. So here’s an alternative. I’ve got two others that he could look down in to talk about today. All those Russian assets that are in our bank. We’ve CS them, but let’s confiscate them. Let’s actually turn them into cash. That’s over 22 billion pounds or Russian assets in the UK alone. And there’s been talk of working with European colleagues for a European retirement bank like we have the after the the Iron Curtain was raised. So there are other ways of doing it. Quite serious. Well considered ways. And that would mean you wouldn’t have to take the overseas aid money. And let’s face it, I think it’s quite a short term approach doing that because let’s who’s going to fill the gap when that money goes, it’s going to be Russian China. You know, the US has already pulled out in a massive way if we pull out as well, or maybe take other Western allies with us, and the gap will be filled by our enemies long term, it’s really bad defense strategy.

 

Coco Khan Do you think it’s it’s genuinely possible to put money into defense and not feel the pinch at home? Because, look, all the polling suggests that the reason people are losing faith in the government and politics in general is because of the cost of living. And I think there will be some people in some parts of the country who, rightly or wrongly, will say, hang on a minute, why are we paying for a conflict that’s really far away? When in my neighborhood there’s so many children and so many things that need fixing. I mean, are these two things at odds?

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, I mean, as I’ve just explained, we found ways which wouldn’t hit ordinary people. But let me give you other ways as well. I mean, you know, I think this government’s generally been quite timid in its relationship with Europe is in two issues. We’ve been campaigning this Parliament had been the idea of getting rid of all those trade barriers that the Tories put up that have made trading almost impossible and impossible for some. Small and medium sized countries at firms in the UK. And that means we’re growing less strongly. There’s less money going to the Exchequer as result. So let’s let’s have another customs union like we used to with the EU. Let’s have a youth mobility scheme. I mean, you know, the EU put on the table, we say, yes, let’s do that too. These things would grow the economy. And it’s, it’s, it’s the growth that actually is the fundamental problem for our exchequer.

 

Coco Khan Okay. Well putting aside the pinch that could be coming or shouldn’t be coming. I feel like to say that you’re anti-war. If you said that out loud, people would just scoff at you and laugh. This is ridiculous. What a terrible perspective to have. But there is just something here where, you know, an increase in defense means we’re becoming a bit more militaristic. We’re becoming a bit more war ready. And on a personal note, that does make me a little bit anxious, you know. What does it mean to be anti-war in this day and age?

 

Sir Ed Davey First of all, the reason I really strongly support increasing our defense, working with our European colleagues and others is because that’s the best way to avoid war. If Putin thinks that you’re strong, he won’t come and attack you. And I know some that sounds odd something, but actually it’s been proven over many, many years. Many, many countries, if you will, strong anyone coming for you so that it’s the way to avoid war. First of all, I think the second thing is because different wars respond, you should run a different way. So, you know, Harold Wilson back in the 60s, right? Not to join the American, the Vietnam War. Actually, right now Kratz votes against the Iraq War. Yeah, famously at war. There was no justification for it. And it actually turned out very badly to complete disrupted the the whole of that region of our world. And that’s more wars and more killings and more terrorism. So individual decisions, you have to take judgments on the basis of that. So we were really clear we should be supporting Ukraine. And I’m really clear we need to build up our defense because Russia is a threat. I don’t think that’s disputable whether you’re from the of Progressive Left, Liberal Center or wherever you on the spectrum.

 

Coco Khan Frankly it is. It is strange though, like I can feel myself sometimes when I’m talking about like cop. We just get along well. I’m like, you know, I’m trying to put flowers into machine guns or something, which seems all very passé. Nobody’s doing that anymore. But it does feel like the global temperature is is rising in terms of aggression, in terms of the prospect of war. I mean, how worried are you at the moment?

 

Sir Ed Davey I am worried, I, I’d be worried I’m on the Ukraine front for some time. I’d be worried about what’s happening in Gaza and the West Bank. I’m worried about what’s happening. Yemen and Sudan. I mean, there’s wars in many parts of our world which horrific and millions of people are losing their homes. Tens of thousands, but hundreds, thousands are being killed. So it is shocking your right to worry about that. But the question is, how do you respond to that?

 

Coco Khan Okay. What about being more neutral?

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, in any one circumstance, if that’s a way to promote peace, I’m for it. But I don’t think Russia, and certainly Vladimir Putin is going to take much notice of neutrality, frankly. And if you look at the human rights abuses, I mean, they killed innocent citizens in that in their attacks. They keep doing it. They’re abducting children. Taking Ukraine to Russia, the behaving the most appalling ways, War crime, after war crime. I don’t think neutrality is the right response to the I think you know those and hard because this man is a war criminal. He’ll go down in history equivalent to there and Stalin, all the rest of those dictators that brought so much misery. And the only way you deal with them is to be strong.

 

Coco Khan I just felt I had to ask that for all the pacifists listening in.

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, I respect I respect their views, okay. And I understand that. But I’m afraid I don’t think faced with people like Putin and people like Hitler, that’s sufficient.

 

Coco Khan So Starmer is meeting Trump on Thursday. If you were in his shoes, shaking his hand with an iron grip, what would you say to him?

 

Sir Ed Davey I’ll say, hello, Mr. President, how are you? Good to see you. I’d compliment him in some way, and then I’d sort of try to find a way to win him over gradually. I’ll be looking at the tapes of what Macron did. I’ll be talking to to President Macron. But I did think he played it pretty well. You know, I think that’s that’s quite stylish from the French president. And that’s what he’s going to try to do.

 

Coco Khan Well, I mean, if you want a suggestion from me, I know he’s a big fan of the Royals and there’s so much great royal gossip out there. Affairs, so many affairs, secret children. You just need to get yourself on Reddit Ed and you’ll find it. That’s the way.

 

Sir Ed Davey You want some things I actually said in the speech even before he’s inaugurated. That we should offer him a state visit. Yeah, right. A banquet at Buckingham Palace. Because I think you’re right. I think he loves all that stuff. He loves the King. And. Yeah, you’re right. But I said you had to get something out of it. This is this guy’s transaction, right? He just does deals. And so the deal would be to have a state visit and and supper at the palace. But you’ve got to do X, Y, and Z.

 

Coco Khan I just I just have this vision of the Trump baby blimp being brought back. Probably not the best idea.

 

Sir Ed Davey Well, you could ask me more. And, you know, how much do gold toilets cost these days? You know, the king wants to know.

 

Coco Khan The price of gold, by the way, is very high. Just to let you know. It’s something that I know. I’m. I’m Asian. These are things that I know. Sir. Ed Davey, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Save the UK.

 

Sir Ed Davey You’re very welcome. Nice to talk to you.

 

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Coco Khan Okay, so before the break, we had my conversation with Sir Ed Davey, which you know, was really interesting, if a little brief. I definitely could have spoken to him for longer. What did you make of it?

 

Zoë Grünewald I thought there were several interesting things in there. I really like that he made the case for a digital services tax, increasing the amount that these kind of big digital companies that mostly based in the US would be paying, and that would kind of help bolster our defense spending. Because, you know, Amazon only paid 18.7 million last year, which sounds like a while until you consider that the British arm alone raked in 27 billion. So, you know, they’re not paying pressure. And I think there is real public support for increasing the tax burden, especially on those multinational companies that rake in lots and lots of money and aren’t properly taxed here. I also thought his almost he almost made like a pacifist argument in favor of defense. Right? You asked him, you know, how do we square it with actually just wanting peace? And he almost made it like it was an insurance policy. So the more defense you have, the more you put off potential attackers. But, you know, the thing that I think is also really important to note is that it’s not just like artillery and soldiers and military capabilities. That also has to be strong public services. You know, how is the NHS going to survive a critical cyberattack? You know, how would our critical national infrastructure survive an attack of that sort? And you also need communities who are strong and supportive of their country. So you need to build up public services, local authorities, councils, all those things. They need to be equipped to deal with the new kind of warfare we might experience. But also you have to create a country where people want to feel defensive of it. And I think part of the problem is if you just focus on defense spending as military. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of miss what people are fighting for or defending.

 

Coco Khan No, absolutely. And I think I still come back to this point about, like, there’s no denying that what is taking place is atrocious. And any civilian across the world who dies in a conflict of its leaders is just it’s just a shame. This is just awful. And so obviously, I know something has to be done. It’s not that you can’t do anything. But I do come back to this thing being like, is military the only way? Are there other ways? Yeah.

 

Zoë Grünewald And I think the reality of, you know, what does it mean to send troops to Ukraine if the conflict could keep going or if it could flare up again, that would mean British civilians dying.

 

Coco Khan Exactly.

 

Zoë Grünewald And that’s.

 

Coco Khan And that impacted our community. Yeah. And and yeah, I mean, like.

 

Zoë Grünewald We’re sort of talking about defense spending as a kind of economic concept when actually it can mean bloodshed and devastation in our communities. Yeah.

 

Coco Khan But I like to say I think he makes a very, very powerful argument. And yeah, I do still come back to this point about like, well, what does it mean to be anti-war in the modern age? Is this the concepts that we should, as progressives, still fight for to latch on for? What does it involve? I don’t know if I have the answer for that, but it was definitely a fascinating conversation. So look, the Liberal Democrats are setting themselves up to be a credible opposition. But the Tories, the official opposition, on the other hand. Well, just listen to this clip of Kemi Badenoch from Parliament on Tuesday.

 

Clip So I welcome his announcement on repurposing money from the overseas development budget. That is absolutely right. And I look forward to him taking up my other suggestion of looking at what we can do on welfare. He will know that we had a fully funded plan and we urge him to take it up. Having said that.

 

Coco Khan That was Badenoch there full of charisma and championing the fully costed welfare plan of the previous government, which in short order gave Starmer a fantastic moment of riposte, pointing out that their welfare plan had been laughed out of town by both the independent economics research organization, the IFS and the Institute for government. So I think it’s probably worth mentioning that I’m pretty sure that’s the only clip we’ve played in parts of the UK of Kemi Badenoch since she became Tory leader. It’s been 100 days now and she is failing to cut through. Not even enough for us to make fun of her. We love doing that. So, Zoe, what’s going on here?

 

Zoë Grünewald It almost makes you miss Liz Truss because, like, at least she had, like, there was loads of gold material. Like there was lots to make that up. There was a really good quote by John Crace, who’s a sketch right in The Guardian who said, the more you get to see of Kemi, the less there appears to be. I think that’s true. You know, people thought she’d be this really punchy leader who would put Starmer in his place and fight for conservative values. And actually, beneath this kind of condescending facade, there’s not very much going on. And I think the thing about the conservatives is it’s not like the supporters of the Conservative Party have lost their conservative values. They just don’t like the conservatives anymore. And part of that, Kemi would argue, is because they’ve shifted towards the center. I would argue it’s because they were totally incompetent and corrupt for 14 years. So if you want to turn around the fortunes of the Conservative Party, there needs to be a degree of humility and grace. And Kemi Badenoch does, to her credit, say we’ve made mistakes, but none of those mistakes seem to be having been knoxvilel. They seem to be everyone else in the party. As if she didn’t serve in previous government. Yeah. So I think she comes across badly, unwilling to engage in a bit delusional. But there is also an existential issue with the Tories, which we’ve spoken about before, which is they are fundamentally divided. They’re divided over everything. Britain’s position in the world, the economy, taxation, Brexit, the environment, things they all used to agree on. But then the the Tory moderates were purged and now there’s just kind of the right and a few moderates. So coming up with any workable policy that the party will get behind is actually impossible. So she’s got no policy positions, but also she’s got no charisma.

 

Coco Khan I mean, and you’re exactly right. It is just coach whoring. That’s all she’s doing. So, you know, we try to look into to examples of where she’s got the headlines recently. You know, this week she called for an end to the BBC license fee due to a Gaza documentary that ended up being pulled. She’s got a headline or two for saying, oh, you know, we should steamroll international law. I think, you know, recently she talked about sandwiches. She’s been on Jordan Peterson’s podcast. I know I listen to her. That is. Yeah, man. You were into self-harm.

 

Zoë Grünewald I shame I listened to it for my for my work. You know, that’s one of the things I did this this week actually on I listened to Jordan Peterson’s podcast. It was terrible. They’re both saying, who can do more word salad? The other one, you know, she’s stuck in this podcast circuit, I think because she’s trying to capture these voters who care more about ideology maybe, than they do about policy, but she just talks herself into weird kind of Segways and then doesn’t really explain them. Like, she talks a lot about how she’s a Christian, a cultural Christian. She says that culture is upstream of religion. To me that sounds all quite dog whistle. Yeah. What is a cultural Christian like? Christianity is a religion. Yeah. It’s all. It’s all very strange. She’s very anti-immigration. She talks very passionately about how she hated woke people at university and got in lots of arguments with them, which, you know, is not a good basis by which to select your next prime minister. But yeah, she’s just stuck in this kind of podcast circuit, never getting a news line across. She’s not being interviewed by proper journalists. And I do think that makes a difference. They know how to craft a narrative and get a headline. And if you just talking to Jordan Peterson for two hours, I mean, okay.

 

Coco Khan So just like, you know, internet arguments are not even up to date ones. I mean, we’ve moved on, Kimmy. We’re not talking about the National Trust anymore. We’re talking about Luigi Maggio, and he’s loafers, like, come on, get with it.

 

Zoë Grünewald And you know, the anglerfish. You know.

 

Coco Khan I don’t know about the anglerfish.

 

Zoë Grünewald Coco. You really need you really need special.

 

Coco Khan It’s not really my scene.

 

Zoë Grünewald You need to make sure you’re well briefed before we record, okay? Because the fish is all over TikTok.

 

Coco Khan Oh, is it? The new Mu dang?

 

Zoë Grünewald The new mu dang. Oh, yeah. So they usually have 2000m below the surface, but one was caught surfacing like in Tenerife the other day and just just became a Gen-Z meme obsession. So there’s loads of footage of this anglerfish with beautiful piano music. People saying like, if you don’t believe in yourself, be more like this fish who, you know took their last moments in the sunshine. People are saying, this is the Gen Z Zeit Geist. You know, this fish captures how lonely and isolated Gen Z feel and is a kind of beacon of hope in a in a world of Kemi Badenoch and Jordan Peterson.

 

Coco Khan Wow. Okay.

 

Zoë Grünewald And she’s not even mentioned that she doesn’t.

 

Coco Khan Have a manager. What kind of. So what are you doing? You’re not online enough. But on a serious note, James Cleverly, he must be rubbing his hand together. Right?

 

Zoë Grünewald James Cleverly is really interesting, right? Because the other sort of successors, I guess, are Priti Patel, who was sat next to Kemi Badenoch in that clip. And then there’s Robert Jenrick, who is, you know, we have lots of things to remember, Jeremy, But they are trying to make themselves known and quite vocal. You know, Robert Jenrick is always chiming in about various culture war issues. James Cleverly is keeping his powder dry. He’s not really doing much. I think he’s trying to disassociate himself from Kemi because when it all goes wrong, which it probably well, he can jump in as the next Tory leader. And I genuinely think James Cleverly as someone who Labour would be pretty scared of.

 

Coco Khan Because we’ve spoken before about how it seems like Badenoch has just sort of seen Nigel Farage and said, I’m going to emulate that. Implicit in that is this idea that, like Farage, is brilliant. But the latest YouGov poll shows that there’s a bit of a decline in Reform’s numbers from 27 to 25%. You know this like Trump, Farage, bromance or unrequited love thing that’s going on. You know, it could be starting to to hurt him. I mean, what do you think about it? Nigel Farage is potency right now.

 

Zoë Grünewald The vast majority of people in the UK support UK, and they don’t really like Trump, and they definitely don’t like Musk. Surprisingly enough, British citizens don’t like it when people try and interfere in UK democracy. From the media. Yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it? So Faraj, hitching his wagon to Trump and Musk in the way he did, was always foolish because they’re erratic, the ego driven. They’re not going to be your loyal friend. And they were always going to. I mean, Musk did turn on fraud, as we saw. But you know, Trump.

 

Coco Khan Is you think that’s why I’m getting low loads of Rupert low content.

 

Zoë Grünewald Yeah. Oh, I wouldn’t be surprised because Musk loves Rupert. You know, I have heard other people say that as well. And, you know, Musk is known to to try and alter the algorithms to, to get his content front and center stage.

 

Coco Khan We should also mention the election result in Germany as well. So the conservative CDU, led by Friedrich Metz, won the most seats and is likely to form the government, taking 30% of the vote. But the big winner in terms of voter gains was the far right. The AfD party led by Alice Weidel, which won the support of 1 in 5 German voters and nearly doubled its vote share. This is the biggest result for a far right party since the Second World War. Are there lessons to be learned for us over in the UK, Zoe?

 

Zoë Grünewald I think definitely. I think one of the biggest things we should take from this is that far right movements can and do radicalize over time. So the AfD, when it was initially created, was a euroskeptic and economically liberal party, but over pretty much a decade became a sort of overtly fascist party. And, you know, at the moment here in the UK, reform is obviously distancing itself from Tommy Robinson. But I think we need to remain vigilant about how quickly things could shift. Richard Tice has denied ideological alignment with the AFD, but some figures in the party say the chairs the UCEF has already expressed interest in learning from them. So already we’re seeing within reform there are different ideological shifts happening, and that’s a pretty influential you know, the chairman’s pretty influential. Could we see reform move even further? Right. And I think that’s a pretty scary for the other obvious point for all of us to learn is that ignoring the far right doesn’t stop it. So, you know, just trying to dismiss the AFD as extremist didn’t stop it from rising. Even in Germany, where the you know, the real memory of fascism is is so fresh, the only way you can counter far right parties is strong alternatives, not just criticism. So don’t just ignore them. Present real policy solutions. And yes, immigration is something that they all kind of rally behind. But that’s just snake oil. You know, really voters, you know, they have concerns, real material economic concerns. And it’s easy for the far right to say it’s because of immigration. But proper progressive parties need to say we’re going to have economic solutions to these issues.

 

Coco Khan Yes, yes. So this seems like a good opportunity to think about Labour actually, because, yes, of course, we’ve been talking a lot about Ukraine and Trump, but there has been a few positive stories for the government. So last week they met their commitment for bringing on 2 million more NHS appointments. We also heard about 270 million pounds of culture funding too. But this news is not cutting through. These kind of economic solutions that, you know, arguably could be a counter to to far right power. It’s not it’s not making it. What’s happening here?

 

Zoë Grünewald Yes, I think there’s a few things. The first is that there is that sense of things have gone so badly wrong in this country that even those little slices of good news people just kind of think, okay, there might be more NHS appointments, but why can I still not get one of my GP? Or why is my mum still on an eight month waiting list to get a hip replaced or whatever? People will be thinking, well, I can’t afford a train ticket or yeah, I can’t afford my energy bill. You know, this week we saw energy prices go up as well. I think those kind of tangible things sort of neutralize that good news, because people just think, I’m not feeling those things in my pocket. I think there’s also a problem with Labour’s messaging, which has just been so we talked about that before, but it’s been so dour and it’s really hard to come back from that. If that’s the kind of tone you set your government off on. But I think they just need some big, bold wins that really change people’s lives. I mean, so in April there’s going to be 750 schools that get this new trial of breakfast clubs. That’s going to be something that actually, hopefully, we can immediately see makes life better for kids. Yeah. And hopefully in a year’s time there’ll be some research that shows their attainment. Although productivity was better and that could be a good thing. But again, it’s just these little slices of things don’t seem to actually compensate for the bigger picture. Local authorities going bankrupt or the NHS being on its knees or people feeling like they’ve got no money. And the general breakdown of, you know, communities and people feeling unhappier. It’s just really, really hard. And of course, the general kind of news agenda, just being so focused on the rest of the world going to pot, I think dumb as anything, people think great, 270 million pounds for culture. But what if we get nuked in five years? Yeah.

 

Coco Khan Well, look, I think maybe Labour needs some help with that PR that, you know, one organization that could be taking tips from all the climate change committee who this week created, you know, I would say, a relatable way of measuring our climate change impact. And it is kebabs.

 

Zoë Grünewald Kebabs.

 

Coco Khan They’ve created a kebab measurement system. Yeah. So the Climate Change Committee has taken the humble kebab and given it to us as an understandable metric for our meat consumption, and has suggested that Brits need to drop their meat quota from eight to the equivalent of six. So we eat the equivalent, apparently of eight doner kebabs and we need to go down to six.

 

Zoë Grünewald Okay, I’m going to show you myself as somebody who hasn’t eaten a lot of doner kebabs, are they not? Different sizes of donut? Yes there are. Right. So so.

 

Coco Khan Not enough information.

 

Zoë Grünewald Kabobs. It’s like, you know, it’s a it’s a bit of a sort of after night out meal for a lot of people, isn’t it? It’s become part of our like, you know, late night food.

 

Coco Khan Not for you.

 

Zoë Grünewald No, so I you because I come from Yorkshire.

 

Coco Khan Yeah.

 

Zoë Grünewald Always had a pie after and I am. I’m not even joking. I used to be a pie shop. Yeah I shut down now but we always used to get a pie. So if they told me I had to have six pies a week rather than eight, I’d be like, of course that I can visualize that.

 

Coco Khan Right? Okay, I love it that you fulfill every Yorkshire stereotype. That’s really sweet.

 

Zoë Grünewald Yeah. I got my whippet waiting for me outside. My flat cap.

 

Coco Khan You keep it in the back. You know, some keep hot sauce. Not you, Yorkshire tea.

 

Zoë Grünewald Yeah.

 

Coco Khan Anyway, though, I do actually genuinely think it’s a really great way of drawing attention to this issue. British people love kebabs. All of it was to draw attention to what the UK needs to do to meet its net zero commitments by 2050, so by 2038 to 2042, the majority of homes will need to have ditched their gas boiler for a heat pump, switch to an electric car and of course, eat a few less kebabs.

 

Zoë Grünewald Okay, good. Well, I’m just going to Charolais to my pies and drive around in my electric car and, you know, talk about how great my hip pumpers.

 

Coco Khan This sounds like its like the 2025 version of Pop life. Just driving around in my electric car. Zoë Grünewald thank you so much for joining us today. Come back soon.

 

Zoë Grünewald I will. Thank you so much.

 

Coco Khan Have a productive week.

 

Zoë Grünewald Thank you. And I will be sure to send you an update.

 

Coco Khan Yes.

 

Zoë Grünewald Of all five things I’ve achieved.

 

Coco Khan Yes, or it will be considered a resignation. So that’s it everyone. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the UK. Don’t forget to follow Pod Save the UK on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter. We’re on blue sky now too guys, so please follow us at Pod Save the UK  dot Crooked dot com. And if you want to see more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

 

Zoë Grünewald Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listiening production for Crooked Media.

 

Coco Khan Thanks to senior producer James Tindale and assistant producer May Robson, with additional research from Isabella Anderson.

 

Zoë Grünewald Our theme music is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

 

Coco Khan Thanks to our engineer Jeet Vswami. The executive producers are Anushka Sharma, Louise Cotton, Madeleine Herringer and Katie Long with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

 

Zoë Grünewald And remember to hit subscribe for shows on Thursday on Amazon, Spotify or Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

 

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