In This Episode
A study exposes superfluous hiring of D.C. patrol officers, a grant program for Black women disbanded after right-wing pushback, and an overdue conversation about the depreciation of journalism.
News
Study Finds D.C. Doesn’t Need More Police Officers Walking the Beat. Will Anyone Listen?
Fearless Fund settles with DEI foes, ends grant program for Black women
James Earl Jones’ Comments Dissing Black Women Resurfaced and Black Twitter is Outraged and Confused
Follow @PodSaveThePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey it’s DeRay, and welcome to Pod Save the People, in this episode it’s me, Myles, and Kaya talking about the underreported news of the last week. There’s a lot we talked about today. And don’t forget to follow the podcast at @PodSavethePeople on Instagram. Let’s go. [music break]
Kaya Henderson: Family, family, family. Welcome to another episode of Pod Save the People. My name is Kaya Henderson and you can find me sometimes on Twitter at @HendersonKaya.
Myles E. Johnson: My name is Myles E Johnson. You can find me at Instagram sometimes most times at @pharaohrapture.
DeRay Mckesson: And this is Deray @deray on Twitter.
Kaya Henderson: So um it has been a very chock full week. Um. Lots of stuff happening and lots of sad stuff. We lost three Black men who were icons of the entertainment world. First we lost James Earl Jones, who I don’t know if you know this. Did you know that he was the first celebrity guest on Sesame Street ever? Period the end?
Myles E. Johnson: I did not know that. I did not know that.
Kaya Henderson: And that kicked off a career that, you know, I mean, he was the narrator of our lives. He was Darth Vader. He was lots of things, too many things to name. And uh and then shortly thereafter, we lost Frankie Beverly, who is, you know, one of my friends said Frankie Beverly is the cookout king. Um. Frankie Beverly brought us white parties and the soundtrack of generations um that have been redone by, you know, today’s folks. And he just was an icon. And then yesterday, we lost Tito Jackson, who, you know, again, an icon, the Jackson five, the consistent person in the group, the guitarist, the like. [sigh] I don’t know. Um. Something is going on in heaven and they need Black men entertainers, huh? It must be an exciting party. [?] friends.
DeRay Mckesson: I’ll tell you uh Frankie. Frankie’s name ain’t even Frankie.
Kaya Henderson: Oh did you not know that?
DeRay Mckesson: I did not know that, you knew that?
Kaya Henderson: I knew that. So I might be in a relationship with the largest Frankie Beverly fan that ever existed.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh.
Kaya Henderson: Uncle Mike knows every single word to every single Frankie Beverly song.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m like, who is Howard? What who made a they done remit they put the wrong name in the article. [?]
Kaya Henderson: No. He named himself at, he picked up the moniker Frankie because he was a huge fan of Frankie Lymon’s, who was a singer in the ’50s maybe, um and named himself after Frankie Lymon, um which was an interesting fact. Also interesting fact, um Marvin Gaye founded or discovered Frankie Beverly [?]. And–
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: His song Silky, silky soul singer, is about Marvin Gaye and the special relationship that they have. Had.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: Not that kind of special, you know, special mentoring.
Myles E. Johnson: You you never know. Leave people alone.
Kaya Henderson: It’s true, it’s true.
Myles E. Johnson: Leave people alone. Leave people alone. So I think a few episodes ago I said something about how I think Black people but specifically Black men, how we need a Bruce Springsteen and how Bruce Springsteen really occupies a very specific space in a lot of Americans hearts, but a lot of white Americans hearts that just feels down home. And I don’t think anybody comes close but James Earl Jones and Frankie Beverly. I think when I think about the legacy of happiness, of joy, happy feelings, we are one, um golden time of day.
Kaya Henderson: Southern Girl.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh my gosh. It’s just the the legacy of warmth that he has led. It’s just it’s just astonishing. And then my little James Earl Jones thing is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite episodes or excuse me, one of my favorite projects of James Earl Jones is um this fairy tale anthology that he hosted. And it’s interesting because Shelley Duvall did a very similar thing, too, but basically um it’s a, a fairy tale anthology. I think it’s called like Long Ago and Far Away, and it’s an anthology of fairy tales. And any time the intersection, specifically Sesame Street, when we were talking about that any time the intersection of Black man and education and children come up, it just warms my heart. So yeah, we lost some real ones.
DeRay Mckesson: I will say, you know, one of the things that surfaced online about James Earl Jones’ death. If you didn’t see it was the resurfacing of some interviews that he had done where he was not particularly kind about black women. I don’t know if you saw these.
Kaya Henderson: Say what now?
DeRay Mckesson: But–
Kaya Henderson: What?
DeRay Mckesson: You didn’t, Myles, you must have seen them.
Myles E. Johnson: About James Earl Jones?
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, it wasn’t a blip. It was not like a blip on the Internet radar. It was like a thing.
Kaya Henderson: Here’s what’s interesting about that to me. Um. One, I’m sort of sad to hear that, um that that’s how he felt. And like, I guess um I don’t really care. And he has a reason why I don’t want nobody who don’t want me. I happen to think that Black women are amazing and wonderful. And I think that if you don’t want us, then I don’t want you neither. And I can appreciate your acting and your whatever the case may be. I think it’s unfortunate, but, you know, people are complicated and who knows what he experienced to make him um think that way? Maybe I’m just a old lady. And I can’t give these things that kind of energy anymore. Love is hard to find. Find it with who you want it um and leave just leave if you don’t like Black women, just don’t say nothing. Go find your white lady and keep it moving. [laughter] Sorry that’s how I–
Myles E. Johnson: Oh my God.
Kaya Henderson: That’s how I genuinely feel, that is, sorry.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. The internet’s weird and that’s why I’m I’m very happy to mainly be informed by stuff. Either it has to get to me in a certain it just can’t get to me on Twitter because of how arguments are just conformed uh just manipulated on on Twitter because this is a 93 year old man and I say this today all the time, but peop– but people don’t listen. But do you know what things you have to collude with and seduce in order to have had a career in the ’70s? So even in this article, I believe that I saw them list Harry Belafonte and Sidney and Sidney Poitier, and there were these are all Black men. And Eartha Kitt notoriously had a speech about how she was disrespected by her Black men peers as well. That is the climate of that. And in order to get into white supremacist Hollywood. To think you aren’t somehow colluding with white supremacy is just out is just to me. I’m just like, Yeah, of course. And just in the same way, if I read for me, if I read Hemingway, that is a misogynist. That is a racist. The words are good. So that I feel the same way about when I hear things about James Earl Jones. I think the symbolism of him being a Black man and doing Sesame Street and him doing the fairy tales and him being Darth Vader and all these other things is great. But even during his lifetime, he got a lot of pushback critically about him being the the sole Black person in Star Wars, being of just a voice and being an evil voice at that. And in order to do well in Hollywood. Even today, there has to be some type of assimilation and collusion with white supremacy. And I think just picking out evidence of that is um, I mean, it’s fine for argument and for fodder and for a good 48 hour argument. But at the end of the day, I think a more useful dissection would be oh how are we still doing that today in 2024? Who’s still doing that today in 2024? Who’s still platforming white supremacist ideals and and and manipulating and advancing minstrelsy in order to play the Hollywood game? And how can we critique that? But a 93 year old dead man, I’m it’s not. It’s that ticker for me has been is is up. [laugh]
Kaya Henderson: Well, also this week, um [laugh] speaking about dead people. Somebody tried to assassinate.
DeRay Mckesson: They did not.
Kaya Henderson: Mr. Trump. Oh they didn’t?
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t believe it. No, I heard the news.
Kaya Henderson: Oh.
Myles E. Johnson: I don’t know why that leeway.
Kaya Henderson: I was like wait a minute.
Myles E. Johnson: That–
DeRay Mckesson: It didn’t happen. Kaya this man was on the golf course. How did this other guy know he was there? You know, Elon has already, like, deleted his account so nobody can see his old tweets. It didn’t, this is the at a point, you know, they said you got to try something neutral. Making up assassination attempts is we not even this not even making the news cycle, really.
Kaya Henderson: Fascinating, um. [laughter]
Myles E. Johnson: For everybody, for everybody who can’t see. Because the thing about it is this is this is audio and film. So anybody who couldn’t see DeRay did a classic, I’ve seen 95 year old grandpas and five year old kids do that little, and what are you going to do about it look that DeRay did. [laughter] That blink. Like like I said it. And like and did the you just missing that little that that little um that little vice president Harris hand underneath your chin when you do it.
DeRay Mckesson: It didn’t happen. And–
Kaya Henderson: I wasn’t even ready for that. I was ready to report the news. There was a second assassination attempt.
DeRay Mckesson: It didn’t happen.
Kaya Henderson: DeRay said it didn’t happen. Mmm.
DeRay Mckesson: It didn’t happen. There’s–
Kaya Henderson: I mean. It–
DeRay Mckesson: –no, it didn’t happen.
Kaya Henderson: What is interesting is, you know, this the the martyrdom strategy. Right. I was reading an article about and I’m not going to remember his name, but there was a Congress person who previously was kind of a moderate Republican. It was in the Atlantic. And he has shifted completely and totally to being a MAGA Republican. His friends and his family members. I want to say Mike Lee, but I’m not sure about that check for me. But his friends and his family members say they don’t recognize him because he’s so far out for Trump. And when they were trying to explain why this happened, they basically said that he has experience. When he started doing research on Trump, he experienced, like the whole world being against Trump and him not getting a fair shake. And all of this like Trump as the victim thing. And that made him completely shift his perspective and go hard in the paint for Mr. Trump. And so I think that there is something I think that, you know, this martyrdom victimhood strategy works with a set of people. And I think that at this point, the Republican campaign or the Trump campaign is trying to pull out every single stop to reengage their base. And there are a bunch of people for whom this martyrdom story is real. And I think that may be why um why, you know, it there’s not a new trick. Maybe it may be the same trick because it worked before.
Myles E. Johnson: As you were speaking Kaya, I also was reading the ABC News report kind of saying things that we know so far. About about who this man uh is. The reason why I’m not totally on the it’s fake trail is it seems as though everybody who’s attempting is on the right. It seems as though and I haven’t dug enough into as much digging as I have done I guess I haven’t gotten dirty enough. I haven’t dug enough to the into the right to know where the flip is happening, where there’s obviously people who are on the right who are not satisfied. So unsatisfied with with with Trump that they’re planning violent acts or and attempting violent, violent acts. And to me, that’s something there that doesn’t necessarily make sense in that whole idea of, oh he’s recreating I get it intellectually like recreating martyrdom in order to create get sympathy from voters. But something something doesn’t feel right about that when I think about who are the people who are usually behind it and what’s happening, I think that these radicalists, these people who Trump has helped radicalize are now radi– radically against him because he’s not in support of the. I feel like he’s saying things that they don’t like. I think the things about abortion that he’s saying how how how weird he was during debates, I think a lot of the things he’s stepping back on um is infuriating right wing extremists. That’s what it that’s what it appears to be to me.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah Myles. I actually think what’s happening and this came out when the first questionable was there an assassination attempt that happened. [laughter] Um. Is that there’s like a whole subculture in the right that is convinced that if he gets killed, it will actually cement the right’s strategy. So they are his supporters, but they are like, if Trump gets killed, then this will usher in a true radical movement and it they’ll be even more energized than what Trump was able to do. So I think that it’s an extension of his of what he’s done. I don’t think it’s like a rebellion against it. And that’s why–
Myles E. Johnson: Got it.
DeRay Mckesson: Even with the first attempt, it’s like, okay, the people, the MAGA people are like, we told the police, we told the Secret Service, we saw the man climb up on a roof. He had a gun. Nobody did anything you’re like, okay, this guy, you’re like, well, how do you even get 500ft? Like how do you get that close to the president at the golf course. You know, I’m uh it’s hard to get close to Kamala. It’s you know Barack Obama. You appear you know, you you in the room, and you 10,000 feet away. You know what I mean?
Myles E. Johnson: Right. Right. Right. Right.
DeRay Mckesson: But anyway, we got other news to talk about. But let’s get this election over with. This is killing us all.
Kaya Henderson: Oh my gosh. I think that this is fantastic because it’s only six weeks left, maybe five weeks left. And, you know uh, I think we should always have sort of 90 day elections or what have you, because at least it will be over pretty shortly. Um. But I hate to–
DeRay Mckesson: [?] Kaya I do love that we did not have to spend weeks in Iowa. Like I love that we missed that part of the news where Kamala would be in somebody’s kitchen in Iowa and you’re like why am I–
Kaya Henderson: Right at the state fair.
DeRay Mckesson: Iowa is a bellweather for. Yeah.
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: I’m like, skip Iowa. I mean, shout out to Iowa. We love you people in Iowa. Like not no, not to you. But I don’t know if that should be where the primary begins.
Kaya Henderson: I hate Taylor Swift tweet. Talk about it.
DeRay Mckesson: What was he thinking? I you know, clearly, I don’t know. I’m all of it just feels like a child online. I hope Taylor does a sit down interview with Kamala Harris just to like cement it because I he will unravel. And the Swifties, whether you like them or not. They are an energized group of people. And when 400,000 people click the link to register to vote, when she put up that one Instagram story with no commentary like she didn’t, it wasn’t like she was voicing it over. If she just does a little bit, it’ll go a long way, which is why he is doing this stuff. So I hope she leans all the way into this one.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m Taylor Swift like agnostic. But [laughter] this this this this just for full transparency. I just have never cared about Taylor Swift. I am. I am scared, though. Because–
Kaya Henderson: What are you scared of?
Myles E. Johnson: I remember I remember Kathy Griffin. Right? And a lot of people don’t remember Kathy Griffin or not people don’t remember everything that happened to Kathy Griffin.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: And that is a horrifying thing. If you watched her documentary on it, her interviews, anything, she’s obviously an amazing speaker. But if–
Kaya Henderson: Give a recap, Myles, for people who don’t who were not.
Myles E. Johnson: Kathy.
Kaya Henderson: Paying attention.
Myles E. Johnson: Kathy Griffin. Uh. Donald Trump uh famously said grab them by the ha ha, grab them by the whoever. Kathy Griffin with this photographer who uh I can’t remember his name, but the photographer and Kathy Griffin got a Trump mask, put ketchup on it, made it like it was bleeding, took the head and and um and took a picture of Kathy Griffin holding a Trump mask with ketchup on it to look like a a beheaded Trump. Trump head, which was uh with this news today seems to be a little prophetic. But but um [laugh] dark humor. Sorry, but uh that just gave was a firestorm of controversy. She got canceled. Anderson Cooper stopped being her friend. A lot of celebrities came out, called her disgusting and all this other stuff. And this was before, I guess, for a lot of people, Trump passed this inappropriate mark. Because I feel like she was actually just early um by uh by by declare by creating that kind of imagery. I think she was just early but anywho, a lot of people had things to say about it, but she was effectively canceled and Trump went after after her, Trump went after her, Trump um investigated her, Trump uh made she was a flight risk. She couldn’t work. Trump went after her while he was a president. This is just unheard of for a for a president, a sitting president to go after a private citizen like this specifically over something that is so obviously art and commentary. Specifically when you decide to be a public figure, a political, public, public figure. This makes me scared for Taylor because this tweet is what he can get away with now. But there’s something inside of me that knows that if Trump were to become president, he would specifically go after Taylor Swift to make an example after her, because he’s done it before. And that’s what kind of scares me about it, is because we should be able, as artists and as public figures, be able to say what we feel and and speak. And she didn’t say anything wild. She didn’t say she didn’t say anything controversial, wasn’t provocative. It was the most white bread white liberal thing you can say, and she was still getting so much heat around it. So, yeah, that’s why I’m scared as a Taylor Swift agnostic. But I’m still a humanist, I still love humans. So I’m actually just scared for her now. Because I’m like you just said a Instagram an Instagram post. And now if he does become the man in power, he’s definitely going to come after you.
Kaya Henderson: Um I you know, on the one hand, I mean, he has said that, right,Myles, he said that he is if he is reelected, he is going to use every tool and weapon in his arsenal to punish his detractors and to go after people and whatnot and to use the Justice Department. And so, um you know, when people tell you who they are, believe them. Um. He’s done it before. He will do it again. Um. I saw something on the Internet. I got to pay attention a little bit more. But it basically said, you know, Trump has said he’s going to do X, Y, Z, and Q, And you keep saying uh and undecided voters keep saying, I need to know more about Kamala Harris. And so I think the real deal is we have to judge this man on what he says he’s going to do and what he has already done. I’m also just sort of like amazed at how petty he is, like how easy it is to needle him on the littlest things. Right. Like, he gonna he I hate Taylor Swift? Like bruh come on. Or, you know, we watched him go into a tailspin on a debate when Kamala Harris talked about the size of his rallies. Oh my soul.
Myles E. Johnson: [?] him.
Kaya Henderson: Mr. Obama. Right. [laughter] I mean it is. And to me, like, if I am that campaign, I was I read about this weekend about um there are there’s a group of 25 year olds who are um Kamala’s like TikTok brigade. They are her social media team and they just create meme after meme that goes viral with the youngs. And it is like they don’t it was talking about how like usually in campaigns like things go through 250 different approval processes and stuff. And they’ve given these young people the freedom to just go and create the moments. And Mr. Trump gives them so much to play with because he’s such a five year old, a five year old is the exact right characterization. Um. And if I were them, I would just keep on with the size of his rallies and the size of whatever else and all of the things that like literally send his head into a tailspin because then he can’t–
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
Kaya Henderson: –concentrate on anything else, which I just think and this is the dude that you all want to give the nuclear codes to.
DeRay Mckesson: I will just say, and I know that like, I know this goes without saying, but if any person of color, Kamala or Insert here ever did any of this, it would be she’s a child. She’s immature, she’s too emotional [?].
Kaya Henderson: Not fit to be the president. That’s what we would say.
DeRay Mckesson: Not to be, but the way that and it’s really interesting because I actually realized slowly that I went to Bowdoin with some people who are Trumpers, and because we’re still Facebook friends, I looked up and like whoo am I is this my public page? I’m like oh this is my these I know these people. And to see people do backflips like somebody I I know from college, put on Facebook um I’m annoyed that Kamala calls herself working like says she grew up working class. Whole day–
Myles E. Johnson: Well, she said middle class.
DeRay Mckesson: — this [?]. Huh?
Myles E. Johnson: I was just I was arguing with this person on who you’re talking about. I’m saying she said middle class.
DeRay Mckesson: Okay. Well, he said working class and she and so. And the guy’s like, well, you know, when your father is a professor and your mother, is that really working class? I was poor when I and it and I’m like, even that for critique notwithstanding. You have no smoke for Donald Trump. Like nothing. Like, no, no, I’m like this man. Nobody, it is shocking the way that people do backflips to not not name the way that race is like the way that I’ve seen white people who support Trump. Not name the way that ra– race is completely allowing this to happen is just I know it is not shocking to us, but I have to say out loud because when I see it, I’m like, if she ever did this, if she ever did I hate Hulk Hogan, I people, it would be endless news stories. It would be 24 hour coverage. Crazy.
Myles E. Johnson: It reminds me of, I believe, Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle or [?] I think both of them had jokes about this. Is that how for as long as you have to be exceptional as Vice President Harris and Barack Obama have to be in order to be president or in order to even be in it in there there’s really not actually racial equity. Part of there being racial equity is if and when we see a Black person able to be Black like this.
Kaya Henderson: As inappropriate?
Myles E. Johnson: In the in the White House. That is racial equity. Because even after you watch the debate, you’re like, no matter how like, you know, no matter how you feel about Vice President Harris, she’s an intelligent, capable woman and an intelligent, capable Black woman. And the fact that she’s not in the boxing ring with a peer, she’s in a boxing ring with an intellectual five year old who who’s just who just has made a career out of being a orange failure. It’s it’s sad. It’s sad. It’s disrespectful. It’s like if you see Muhammad Ali and he’s and he’s with some 12, 13 year old big shot big mouther. You know what I mean? In the ring and you’re like, well, why is Muhammad Ali being disrespected by even matching this person up with this? You should be matched up with other excellents, even if it’s ideologically on the far on on on the right of her. At least be matched up with somebody who is worthy of her time. And I feel like that is a huge macrocosm of like what ends up happening to so many Black folks lives specifically capable, intelligent, exceptional Black women.
DeRay Mckesson: Now that you just brought up Muhammad Ali, this is a complete tangent, but I finally finished Who Killed Malcolm X on Netflix? Must see.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
DeRay Mckesson: I had no clue about Malcolm’s life after he leaves the Nation of Islam. Like I had never heard a speech. I hadn’t heard him talk during those years. I like the whole controversy around who killed him, and Muhammad Ali has a he’s in it for a brief period, but um blew my mind. Shocking. Must see.
Myles E. Johnson: So good.
DeRay Mckesson: Like, I don’t want to give away the things that blew my mind, truly. But yes.
Myles E. Johnson: So good. So good.
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned. There’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Kaya Henderson: Moving on to our news. My news is a continuation of a long conversation that we have been having about um efforts to turn back DEI initiatives. Um. We’ve talked about it a few times, but the Fearless Fund, which is an incubator and a supporter of women entrepreneurs of color, um has been embroiled in a case um with Edward Bluhm and who is the person who is who is kind of the architect of the dismantling of affirmative action. And now he’s bringing all of these cases in the private sector. We reported before that the Fearless fund was under attack and that their program to fund Black women entrepreneurs was deemed unconstitutional and that they needed to dismantle the program, or that actually that they needed to make it open to non-Black women in order to keep it going. And uh the Fearless Fund has decided to shut down its grant program for Black women to end this affirmative action lawsuit. And I think on its face, there is a lot of disappointment and feelings of loss um because this resource is no longer there and because it seems like the conservatives have won. Uh. But I brought this to the pod because and I don’t have a lot to say, but I brought it to the pod because I think we’re going to continue talking about this. And what was most interesting to me is that um they decided to shutter this program and to not fight this in court, because, in fact, what the conservatives want is for this to go to higher and higher and higher courts, including the, you know, clearly packed right wing Supreme Court, to create precedent which would have an effect across the whole entire country. By shuttering the program, it’s a legal strategy, actually, to make sure that this is contained just to the 11th, the 11th Circuit, uh which is Florida and Alabama and Georgia, I think. Yes, Florida, Alabama and Georgia. And it means that this this particular decision is only binding in that circuit and is not binding across the country. So we live to fight another day. We figure out some of the strategies, but we thwart the effort to make this national by going through the vehicle that they want us to go through, which is the courts, the federal courts, which, if you remember, Mr. Trump placed more federal judges than any other president in history. And so I thought I thought it was interesting that instead of just going down the road that they have laid out for us, um we are regaining some of our legal strategery, a Kaya Henderson word, um to think differently about how we begin to win these battles. Um. And so wonder what you all thought about that?
DeRay Mckesson: I thought it was great. You know, two things come to mind, and I thought about this a lot Kaya in um preparing for this. I’m sure that you saw similarly that there were the university numbers have are coming out around Black people and affirmative action. Right. And there were drops in–
Kaya Henderson: Numbers are down 8% at Harvard or something like that for Black–
DeRay Mckesson: Numbers are down.
Kaya Henderson: –students.
DeRay Mckesson: But I’m happy you brought up Harvard. Harvard is interesting because Harvard, while it might be down a little bit, it is still at 14%. And it is it is relatively high given the demographics of Black people going to college and da da da. [?] And it was interesting to see that because there are white people who are livid about Harvard’s number because they wanted a bigger drop. And it has been interesting to to see that like, you know, there are ways to continue to make sure that it’s demographically diverse. But but there is this. I don’t know another way to say it, besides white supremacy, like white supremacy is using every strategy it can. And and I got online, when I saw the Harvard numbers. Immediately, I saw these white people saying that they are going to sue Harvard for violating the Supreme Court, that they are calling for suing Harvard, because the fact that the numbers did not drop more means that Harvard must have cheated.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah. [laugh].
DeRay Mckesson: And I’m like, oh y’all y’all this dirty, this dirty. The second thing I’ll say, though, is I don’t know where our legal team is, but I want there to be a lawsuit around why white people have money and da da da like a reverse lawsuit around like what why are white people the only people appointed to things [?] like that is a it is true. It is by design da da. And I like I want a big group to put together a cogent legal argument and force that in the courts. Like, I want that to be like a something that is fought out in front of a jury and and like not something that we talk about only in academic circles or in living rooms, but that we like fight that out in the room because they are fighting us on this. And it is brutal.
Myles E. Johnson: I am really like just to echo what you are saying um, Kaya. I am really happy that we’re not just following the trail that they set out in front of us, and I’m not going to pretend to 100% understand what the full legal strategy is, and I’m assuming that I shouldn’t. [laugh] [?] that somebody smarter and more uh–
Kaya Henderson: That pay.
Myles E. Johnson: –legalized. And–
Kaya Henderson: Pay.
Myles E. Johnson: –and fluent in legalanese is is and is in front of it. You know what I mean? That, those are all uh Pharaoh Rapture Myles E. Johnson words. Um. So that does bring me some relief that there is some strategy, because I think that so long and for just for for decades, any time that we’re interacting with the legal system, we really hope that the legal system, the justice system implements justice. And we know that that’s not always going to happen. And it feels like there’s somebody who was being not just hopeful, but also just realistic about the strategy that’s needed and and and made some and made some quick calls. I am just you know, I’m I’m an emotional person. I am just sad.
Kaya Henderson: Mm hmm.
Myles E. Johnson: I am just sad at you know, a year, two years, three years, four years. That’s a long time. When you’re talking about college, when you talk about your career, when you’re talking about life. And it’s just the fact that we are just being distracted by white supremacist strategies that we have to that that we have to uh gut and figure and strategize around. It just it just makes me sad because Black people don’t need no wasted time. We don’t need time to be wasted. Black women don’t need time to be wasted. And I think that is just an emotion I want to speak towards is just the the sadness that, again, very capable Black women, very capable people are wasting their time on things that if I’m being quite frank, I it’s it’s it’s whew all the all the curse words. Just geniuses wasting their time fighting with dummies.
Kaya Henderson: So I–
Myles E. Johnson: It makes me sad.
Kaya Henderson: I, I, I have some sadness generally, but I am actually energized by this. Um.
Myles E. Johnson: Let me know.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah I am. I am energized by this because [laugh] because one necessity is the mother of invention. And I think for a long time, like, we just didn’t think that we could ever get back to this place. Right. And in a heartbeat, we have gotten back to this place. And I think that we now have figured out, oh sugar, we actually have to redouble our efforts. We have to think in new and creative ways to get the things that we know are going to support our community. And and I think that all of these things that people mean for bad are going to ultimately end up for our good. So for me, DeRay, the the Harvard stuff is so interesting because here’s what I think is going to happen if we play out this affirmative action stuff over the long haul. Like, let me couple this with the fact that applications to HBCUs are surging like 60% increases in application numbers. Right. And a lot of these kids are the kids who would go to Harvard. I have a friend whose kid her his top choice was Yale. He was going to Yale it’s the only place he ever wanted to go. Um he grew up here in Washington, D.C., spent a summer at Howard and was like, he’s and he’s biracial and he spent a summer at Howard. He was like, my God, like, these are my people. I need to go here. She called me and was like, my God, I think he’s going to choose Howard. And I was like, that’s great. It’s going to be fantastic for him. He can go to graduate school or whatever at Yale, blah, blah. I think this is going to be formative. I think this is going to be amazing. He is at Howard. He is killing it. He’s having a great time. He feels validated, supported all kinds of stuff. And I think that a lot. I think what we will begin to see is a lot of top Black talent will choose to not be in a place that doesn’t want them, will choose HBCU’s. And what will ultimately end up happening is, you know, those places are going to have to come and look. First of all, all of the data about diversity shows that your college or university is stronger, gets better outcomes, your companies are stronger, get better outcomes when you have diverse staff. And people know that the bottom line is the bottom line. And so at some it’s fine now, but at some point after too much Black talent leaves, these Ivy League schools and these other places that don’t that don’t want us affirmatively, we are going to build powerhouse institutions. They already are powerhouse institutions, but they are going to have to come to us to beg for talent. And I think that, you know, if I if I’m a student of history and I look at the reconstruction era where Black people had their own stores, banks, insurance companies, schools, whatever, we were fine on our own. I’m not I am not I’m not advocating for.
Myles E. Johnson: Romanticizing?
Kaya Henderson: For I’m not I’m not I’m not advocating for segregation. I’m not a separationist or whatever. But I am trying to remind us that we have enough talent, assets, resources in our own community that we the ice is not colder on that side of the world. In fact, we are brilliant and amazing. And if people don’t want us, we don’t have to run to that. We can create our own things and attract people. We set the tone for everything fashion, music, [?] God don’t get me started. Anyway, I say all of that to say that I think that um that this affirmative action stuff may play out in ways that Mr. Bluhm and his compadres never even thought about. And I’m interested to see what happens. And I’m excited.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay.
Kaya Henderson: That we are not sitting on our laurels, that we are finding new ways to do the things that we know need to get done.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay, you turn my light on. That’s how you, that’s why that’s why it’s good to have a friend. Because when you can’t turn your own light on, you got a friend to turn that switch on.
Kaya Henderson: I will turn it on.
Myles E. Johnson: Because I’m a believer because I do think that I would not call myself a separate uh blah. I don’t know. [stuttering]
Kaya Henderson: Think about it. You don’t have to. You don’t have to answer right now.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah I don’t. I don’t want to. I don’t I don’t want to say because I might. I may think about it and say like, you know what I might. I might I might believe in a little bit of separation um if I’m being if I’m being quite honest. But what I do think is that we we since the ’70s when since the ’80s, a lot of Black people who can be educated, who were middle class, upper middle class, really did not in big numbers. I don’t want to say something that’s that’s too general but in big numbers a lot of Black people did not value how important it is for us to have our own coalitions, to have our own institutions. And I think when we look at things, I think this really shows. And when we think about medical um uh issues in hospitals and stuff, I’m like, No, we need Black hospitals. We don’t we need Black doctors at Black hospitals doing Black things on Black bodies. And we see the evidence and we and we see the numbers and the data around that not happening. And I think that we undervalue that post um integration. And I think that this is a opening to recorrect those things. So.
Kaya Henderson: Can I say one more thing on this? Um. I just want to hold up um a book called The Devil You Know by Charles Blow. Um. My book club read it a couple of years ago. And then I happened to see uh Mr. Blow last week at the ED LOC convening, talking about it. And what is fascinating about it is he makes the case that if that the Great Migration was actually terrible for Black people, right. That we gave up land, resources, we gave up political power in the South, we gave up a bunch of familial and societal clout and whatnot and and moved all north to live in tenements and let the people put us in factories and get us poor. And he basically um advocates for a reverse migration. And we’ve already seen a lot of Black people moving to the South. But he makes the case that if Black people, if if not even all of us, if a critical mass of us who lived in the north moved to eight states in the south, that we would actually have the political power to to, like, determine every single election in the United States. And that kind of strategery is what I’m interested in, right? I look, I had no plans on and and, you know, there are certain states that don’t really count, but there are certain states that count more than others. And if we concentrated ourselves in those places, the level of political power we would have would be so outsized that we would be determinative of every major national election. And so that is the kind of interesting strategic thinking that um is is is turning on my light Myles.
Myles E. Johnson: Charles Blow, the devil.
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: You know?
Kaya Henderson: The devil you know.
Myles E. Johnson: That’s that’s fascinating. I didn’t necessarily think about the political aspect, but that was so much of the motivation of me leaving New York City was I need to find a Black community, that’s a, that feels abandoned. And I really felt big on channeling my resources and my time in planting it and and helping a community that needs it. A community that feels feels abandoned, a community that within a generation or in a few decades or in a couple of decades, rather, might not be there and just be totally forgotten that that doesn’t just happen in Black communities, if you think about Appalachian, and how it like goes down there too. So that was so much my motivation. Did not think about it [?] specifically, only when it comes to the South. Um. But that’s that’s so interesting because my mind has been on that track, too. So thank you for that.
DeRay Mckesson: Don’t go anywhere. More Pod Save the People is coming.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: My news is about the D.C. Police Department. Um. As you all know, Kaya used to be the superintendent of D.C. public schools. Woop woop woop woop. I just have to– [laughter]
Kaya Henderson: What that got to do with the police? What?
DeRay Mckesson: –give her a shout out. [?] Just got to give her a shout out. Just a you know, we love Kaya. [banter]
Myles E. Johnson: Anytime we can.
Kaya Henderson: Thank you. Thank you. Receiving it all.
DeRay Mckesson: No I want. Whenever Kaya returns to public life, I’ll be there in bells and whistles and um but the auditor’s office in D.C. did a report on the staffing levels of the D.C. Police Department. D.C. at its heyday, had um the police department had close to 4000 patrol officers, that’s a lot of people. Given that D.C. is not a huge geographic location and D.C. remember–
Kaya Henderson: 700 thousand.
DeRay Mckesson: –has a lot of. [?]
Kaya Henderson: 700 thousand people. Not even a million.
DeRay Mckesson: And remember that D.C. has a lot of police departments already there who have police power in D.C. So you get the Metro Police Department, which is the D.C. Police Department, but you got Secret Service, you got the Parks Police, you got the–
Kaya Henderson: Capitol police.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s on. Capitol Police it’s no shortage.
Kaya Henderson: The FBI. All of them get to play here.
DeRay Mckesson: And they all have power to arrest, do whatever like. They might not all do traffic stops, but they all can arrest you if they want to. They can do that in D.C. because it’s D.C.. And shout out to the auditor. I’m bringing it up because this audit report is a model. It is one of one give Cathy is the auditor’s name. Give her an award. I don’t know, Cathy, but she did her big one on this. I don’t you know, some people might not like it, but she did this one. Now, here’s the thing about the police. If there’s anything that I’ve learned in a decade and I would not have said this ten years ago, is that your political leaders are afraid of the police. They actually don’t always agree with them. Behind closed doors they get it, but they are definitely afraid of disagreeing on the record. The city council people won’t do it, the administrators of other departments won’t do it and the mayors won’t do it. So D.C. has been saying they need 4000 officers, blah, blah, blah, carjackings, blah, blah, blah. And how do they get to 4000? Literally, their rationale is it used to be 4000. Like that’s all it’s been. There’s no math. No, not nothing. No like by quadrant of the city da da da. And what I love is that the auditor was like at best, you probably need 65 more detectives because you have a lot of patrol people and y’all aren’t closing cases and you know, the clearance rate in D.C. is really bad. So for nonfatal shootings, it’s less than 25%. That means that if you if you get shot at, there’s less than a quarter chance that the police are even going to arrest anybody, let alone the person gets convicted. But all of their numbers in D.C. are really bad. So they’re like, you probably need 65 more officer and um detectives, but then they’re like, you’re actually adequately staffed to do everything else. And I love it because and they highlight a whole, they highlight things like this. Here’s a sentence from the report. As of July of 2023, a third of all officers assigned to police service areas were allocated to the midnight shift. Yet only a quarter of the calls for service occurred during the midnight shift. What you find in police departments is the wildest mismanagement you’ve ever seen. Nobody’s. It’s like the [?] school systems. Whether you like school systems or not, school systems don’t get away with this sort of stuff. Schools have to be, you know. Could you imagine if we only staffed schools when the kids weren’t there? Everybody would be like, that doesn’t make sense. But the police do things that make no sense. And everybody just says, okay, up until this report. And of course, the police response is like, you know, this is wild. And one of the rationales for the audit is saying they need more detectives. Is that more that they note that more than double the average over time and comp time hours per employee are with detectives like they are just working a ton. Now, the police chief is saying that there’s a lot of overtime with the patrol officers and because there’s so much overtime with them, she’s using that as a case to say we need more patrol officers. The auditor is like, no, you just got them doing all types of random stuff. You need to take these uniformed officers off of administrative roles and put them back on a beat. You need to take people off the midnight shift when nobody’s calling the police and put them somewhere else. You actually have good staff or the right number of staff. You actually have no strategy to maximize the resources and mind you the police are making a ton of money. So I love this report because, you know, we always have to deal with the staffing thing as the boogeyman in the room that everybody every police department needs more people. And nobody’s ever done an analysis of like what is happening with the people. And I love it. Shout out to the D.C. auditor’s office. The mayor is pissed about it. The police chief’s mad about it. We’ll see what the council says, but it is a model of a report.
Myles E. Johnson: Do you think, I have a question. Do you think that you know or what’s the motivation behind wanting more staff for the police?
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah I think that I you know, I think that the city people, almost all cities I’ve worked in, they have no clue what to do about crime. But people feel comforted when you say you hired more police officers. And that is like more emotional than strategic. It’s the idea that I can go into a community and say that I hired 500 more officers and people are like you did something for me. Whether crime changes or not, that makes people feel better. And it masks the inefficiencies in bad leadership. Because if you just have, you know, 2000 more people, you don’t really have to put them in shifts that make sense because there’s just so many people that it sort of masks the fact that there is really poor leadership.
Kaya Henderson: What’s interesting to me, being a person like just a regular citizen of DC, is this um narrative about us needing more police is super salient, right? Like on every bus ad and you know, in your Uber, on the little screen, there are advertisements for um the Metropolitan Police Department. The starting salary is $66,000. After five years of service, you make $88,000. And if you join MPD right now, you get a $25,000 hiring bonus and $6,000 in rental assistance. And so there is a frenzy like people are coming here to apply because the benefits are so good. Young people are joining the police force because I mean, ain’t nobody else giving you a $25,000 hiring or hiring bonus and $6,000 in rental assistance in a city that has, you know, an affordable housing crisis. And I think um I do think about it in terms of schools and school districts. Right. Like one of the things in the report said that, you know, this our, our police department has ten chiefs and other jurisdictions that are similarly similarly sized have six chiefs, and the chiefs all make, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars and that kind of a thing. Those are the kinds of comparisons that we make for school districts all the time. How many teachers do similarly sized districts have? How what is the organizational structure? And this is the first time that I’ve ever seen that about about um a police department and specifically my own police department. I think it’s going to be interesting to see what people do about this, because I think you’re right DeRay. Um. There is the sort of narrative. There are like so many competing narratives right now. On the one hand, you know, we have the fear mongering. Every kid is a carjacker and every all things are there’s crime, as the union says, crime is at an all time high. The police department is saying crime is at an all time low, but we still need more police officers. Like what is the criminal justice narrative in D.C. and what do we do about it? I think this is the first time that I’ve ever seen data put against what we should do strategically. And I do think that the mayor and the council have an opportunity um to be data driven and data informed and make some very different decisions than the ones that we’ve been that we’ve been making on these narratives that have been unsupported, frankly.
DeRay Mckesson: I will say one thing, too, is that it’s interesting that the one thing that the department pushes back on pretty intensely after it, after the report came out is that they refuse to time to track the time of the officers. So the report says in a, you know, in a very report way that the MPD needs to quote, “urgently, urgently needs to gather more comprehensive data.” And it goes on about how officers currently spend their time and then design a staffing model based on that, which is basic. The department is like, no. So we don’t know what–
Kaya Henderson: Just no.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, they’re just like, we don’t need to do that. And you’re like, you know, if anything, citizens assume this has happened and they’re like, oh you know, we know. Let me tell you, across the country, we have no clue what officers are doing. We don’t know. We only know because the cars have GPS trackers on them. So we know we can tell–
Kaya Henderson: Where.
DeRay Mckesson: If we have to where they are. But when you see those pictures of the people in the NYPD just on their phone playing video games, the unions fight so hard and the police chiefs defend this idea that they know best. And you asking what the police are doing with their time is crazy. And again, I came from the school system. So did Kaya. If I you know, in the union and things we’re negotiating the 12 minutes you got for lunch, we’re negotiating the four minutes afterwards, you know that you got to be in the classroom for afterschool programs. We have to account for the work day for people in schools. We do. You know, the police, it’s just like show up. That’s that is wild to me.
Myles E. Johnson: I don’t know if I’m saying the quiet part out loud but [laugh] [?] or if um or if I should have a tinfoil hat on. But also conservatives, Republicans, overrepresent in a lot of police forces. And it to me also it seems as though these requests for more staff is a way to arrogate people who are conservative at best, white supremacists at at at at worse into the police force. And to me that feels very obvious. [banter]
Kaya Henderson: I would say I would say sorry. I would say that might be the case in a lot of other places. But our police force is overwhelmingly Black. I’m pretty sure. We have a Black chief. And we have and we have. I think, DeRay, you can figure this out quicker than I can, but I think we are an overwhelmingly Black police force. Um.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. As far as you’re talking about D.C.. As far as D.C.?
Kaya Henderson: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. So yes yes. Yes, yes, yes. So I guess and I’m going back to Georgia. I’m going back to the south I’m going back to where–
Kaya Henderson: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m at now. And I’m thinking–
Kaya Henderson: Yup.
Myles E. Johnson: –in general because I see this same type of kind of like copaganda propaganda here where I’m at now and when I was in Georgia. So that was really to be more applied to the Midwest and the South than literally D.C.. But that’s my that’s my commentary, too. To just it’s just that–
Kaya Henderson: Yup.
Myles E. Johnson: –certain people are or certain police forces are using that staffing narrative in order to make police to in my opinion, use uh policing as a irrigation system to get white supremacists inside of the inside of the police force. And I know that that may not be happening in D.C., but I think that is happening. And I think that this auditor doing what they were doing sets a precedent so we can actually put closer eyes on what’s actually happening in other police systems. I think this sets like precedents to like how can we examine why are peop– why why does the police uh system look like this? And in Ohio or in the Midwest or in Georgia or in Mississippi, and what is the police force being used to? That I’m glad that this is happening in D.C., because I think that this can be applied to a lot of different places because I think the police is are using their power in a lot of different places to do things that are um that are that are violent. So I’m glad that somebody is holding this um police force accountable.
Kaya Henderson: I will say a cursory search means maybe it’s just me, but it’s really hard to find the um the demographic information about DC’s police department. The last number that I see was for 1970. Um. But I’m going to now I’m gonna–
Myles E. Johnson: And I didn’t want to.
Kaya Henderson: –figure this out.
Myles E. Johnson: I didn’t want to get into a too deep of a rabbit hole with with what I was talking about. But it uh, you know, the Boyz n the hood scene where the Black police officer was the one who was terrorizing–
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: The Black man.
Kaya Henderson: Yeah yeah yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: I didn’t–
Kaya Henderson: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: I wanted to say.
Kaya Henderson: Yes, no no.
Myles E. Johnson: –race I want to say–
Kaya Henderson: Let’s say it. Let’s say it.
Myles E. Johnson: Racial id–, I want to say racial identity does not mean that the police force–
Kaya Henderson: That is true.
Myles E. Johnson: –is not a conservative force.
Kaya Henderson: That is true.
Myles E. Johnson: Or is not a white supremacist force. So I didn’t–
Kaya Henderson: That is true.
Myles E. Johnson: I didn’t want to get into like a huge debate about that. But I was like, just because there’s Negroes there does not mean—
Kaya Henderson: That is true.
Myles E. Johnson: -white supremacy is not afoot. [laugh]
Kaya Henderson: True, true, true, true. I did find some numbers from 2013 which says Black officers are 57%, Hispanic officers seven, Asian 3%, and white 33%. So I’m interested in–
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. So I’m thinking about how those people vote, what their ideas are about other Black people.
Kaya Henderson: Yup. Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: The some of the some of the most hostile ideas from about Black people come from–
Kaya Henderson: Yes, Black people.
Myles E. Johnson: Black people.
Kaya Henderson: We could say it.
Myles E. Johnson: So.
Kaya Henderson: We gotta name all the things. Thank you, Myles. Thank you. Thank you.
Myles E. Johnson: You saw me. I was over here like, oh this is hot lava. [laughter]
Kaya Henderson: Yes. That why we not scared. We all right.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay. So speaking of not being scared.
Kaya Henderson: We are really not scared.
Myles E. Johnson: Speaking of not being scared. Katy Perry. So I wanted to bring this up when it comes to Katy Perry because again, I’m kind of a Katy Perry agnostic. I love Teenage Dream. She was a big part of the music scene when I was younger, but I have nothing for or against her as a human being. But I did want to bring this situation up because I think it does highlight a bigger problem when it comes to journalism and media, because I think that we also see J.D. Vance and Trump using the same types of tools and and and media navigation systems as Katy is. So if you don’t know about the news. Um. Katy Perry has spoken about her decision to collaborate on her new album with Dr. Luke after her music producer was accused of sexual assault by Kesha. Perry was asked about the decision on Alex Cooper’s Call Her Daddy podcast. It acknowledged that it had been a talking point ahead of 143’s release later this month. She was asked about Dr. Luke after spending much of the podcast discussing how she’d overcome past relationships with narcissistic men who couldn’t handle me in the boss mode without addressing the allegations or mentioning him by name. She said, I understand that it started a lot of conversations and he was one of the many collaborative collaborators that I collaborated with. But he but the reality is it comes from me. The truth is, I wrote these songs for my experience of my whole life going through this metamorphosis. And he was one of the people to help facilitate all of that. She added, I’m speaking from my own experience. When I speak about women’s world. I speak about feeling so empowered now as a mother, as a woman. I created all this with several different collaborators, people that I’ve collaborated with from the past, from Teenage Dream era, all of that. So the news is not that Katy Perry said that because she was doing her job right. She did not answer the question. She did not um even say Dr. Luke’s name, she skirted around. She did her job right. The person, Alex, who’s the host of the Call Her Daddy is where I actually had the issue with because be you one, Barbara Walters would have had a follow up question for that. And it’s a weird time in media where somebody can sit down. Make a feminist pop song and then not have to be asked truly investigative feminist questions about how do you make a song about women empowerment? And collaborate musically with somebody who has disempowered to put it lightly, another woman. And I think that that is a fair question to ask. Katy Perry. I think that’s a fair question to ask Doja Cat and anybody who still um collaborates with Dr. Luke and has a feminist tint to their pop brand in order to um in order to recreate their stardom. I think that’s a fair question. And my concern is that those fair questions aren’t being asked because there’s nobody sitting, sitting in the in the question asker seat. I don’t I don’t call it the journalist seat, but nobody who’s sitting in the question asker seat asking those follow up questions. And you might say, well, Myles. And I will say, yes, and if you’re like well it’s Katy Perry, who cares? Trump is doing the same thing. The reason why Trump is going to these red pill podcasts, the reason why J.D. Vance is going and bouncing around these red pill podcasts is because he knows he’s not going to be asked these hard questions. He knows that he’s not going to be challenged. And that is something that is pervasive throughout culture. And I think there’s a way when we look at the Whitney Houston um interview that was that was um with Diane Sawyer, when we look at Michael Jackson’s interviews, when we look at Britney Spears’ interviews, I think there’s a way that we can see how journalists have conducted interviews in the past that might feel exploitative, might feel harsh, might feel um toxic in this new soft speak culture that we’re all in without throwing you know all of our journalistic uh and just and just curious and curious muscles. And just curious muscles. It doesn’t even have to be with be have to all to do with being a journalist. We just have cur– we should just have curious muscles around what’s going on in the psychology of an artist who is creating feminist pop propaganda and is with somebody who was accused of sexual assault multiple times. We have. We have. We like that to me, that feels like a fair question and it scares me that we’re going to be in an era where pop artists, celebrities are able to construct whole narratives and just be deeply contradictory with no with no curiosity around their mindset, their morals, their politics, that that scares me. And I feel like Katy Perry is the first person or excuse me, the person of this week who’s been utilizing this and who’s and and who’s been using this uh parasocial I’m just sitting down with another girl talking and and that’s and that’s my and that’s my engagement with the public in order to to me escape accountability escape thoughtful questions to escape, having to dig a little deeper and having to be looked at a little bit deeper for your actions. Um. Again, this is not to cancel or terrorize in any way Katy Perry. But a really good question is Dr. Luke, I believe survivors. Dr. Luke sexually assaulted somebody. You made pop pop feminist songs. Sexual assault is not a pop feminist thing to do. How do you reconcile in your spirit working with somebody who has harmed another woman, as you’re saying things about women empowerment. Is that a hard question? Sure. Is that a question that I think somebody who is getting wealth and fame from feminist ideals and and esthetics. I think that’s a fair question, I think that’s a fair I know that has to be a fair question. And again, Francis Coppola is in the news right now because he was doing wild things on set. Uh. I think a lot of um I’ve I’ve been in a Roman Polanski rabbit hole watching, like watching Chinatown, Rosemary’s Baby and stuff like that. Like, I just I’ve just been in a rabbit hole when it comes to him, but also in a rabbit hole of watching how in the era where he was accused of having sexual relations with a 13 year old. How that was treated, how that was treated by the media, how that was um treated by by his peers. And I kind of see us recreating certain bubbles. Again, I don’t want to totally do a straight line between Roman Polanski and Katy Perry, of course, but I do want us to investigate how we’re still recreating certain bubbles to make sure that people who are powerful and famous remain powerful and famous no matter what. And I think that Katy Perry is assisting that bubble being around Dr. Luke. And I think that she in herself is creating this bubble around her so she doesn’t have to be questioned about what’s going on. You know, even lastly thing that I’ll say, this is on the film track. Even when I was watching Mia Farrow, Mia Farrow had so horrendous things to say about Woody Allen. But she’s been on record saying glowing things about Roman Polanski and her time at Rosemary’s Baby. So it’s an interesting thing to see somebody who understands assault and this and and and understands perversion in this dynamic, but still does not apply that staying type of earnest critique in another dynamic. That just seems weird to me. I’m always going to call it out. I’m always going to push people to want more for the people who are, you know, just going up the class rank. [laugh] Because of our support. I think that we I think that we’re allowed to ask some harder questions than what Call Her Daddy offered. What do you think, Auntie Kaya?
Kaya Henderson: So I have a couple of thoughts. First of all, I think that your connection to that, that your assertion about this just being a media time of a lack of curiosity and us just letting narratives roll is really important. Um. It is what Trump and J.D. Vance are doing, as referenced by J.D. Vance’s recent comments on CNN, where he said, If I have to make up stories to get the American people to realize what’s going on or whatever, I will. Um. So I think I and I think the media should have been like, [gasp] how did we let this fly? But like, they’re not this is just where we are in that um the media, which used to be a a helpful tool of critical thinking for the American public, just is not anymore. The fact that we have wildly partisan networks and that kind of thing means that, you know, you get to let your narrative roll largely unchallenged because the people who are listening are the people who want to listen and not your critics and and that is why people go on certain podcasts and not other podcasts and and whatnot. And I think also, you know, the whole bottom line thing, right? Like people are in this for the money. And and um somewhere in your piece that said that uh Katy’s most lucrative her her best albums have been with Dr. Luke. And so she is trying to get her best album money. Um. And I think that, you know, you talked earlier about the seduction of Hollywood and the compromises that you have to make to be in celebrity culture. And I think it is you are absolutely right. It is a valid question to ask Katy Perry and comma, it made me think a lot about um the Diddy situation and how many people knew what was happening, how many women knew um what was happening. There was just a a new set of accusations that came out about how, you know, Diddy beat Cassie in front of a bunch of celebrities and nobody said anything or did anything. And he put her out and then he they kept on having dinner. Um. There is an amazing piece by Danielle Smith, um I think it was in The New York Times about how she knew what was happening with Diddy. She experienced some of the um abuse and trauma that Diddy was laying out to folks all over the industry and how for 27 years, she didn’t say anything about it. Um. You know, she accuses him of attempting to kill her and then having to stand with him at parties and take pictures and things um of knowing about a lot of the accusations. And for her, there is a like on the one hand, music is her thing. It’s the thing that made her famous and fulfilled her childhood passions and whatnot. And the industry was corrupt and misogynistic and misogynoir and all of these things. And how she is not until now that she stepped back and is able to process all of this, that she is able to confront her complicity in it, even at the same time being a victim and, you know, whatever, like just trying to survive and thrive. And I mean, you have so many examples of what happens to women when they buck the system. I mean, I’m not I’m not a Kesha fan and I’m not a like whatever, but I ain’t heard Kesha’s name since the whole Dr. Luke stuff. Right? People–
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
Kaya Henderson: When they people when they, you know, bring these issues up, get blackballed and blacklisted and it affects their careers and those kinds of things. And so I think in the same way that we were interrogating James Earl Jones’s, you know, stance, there is some of that going on here the the trade offs that you have to make in order to be in the Hollywood machine is what this makes me think about.
Myles E. Johnson: You know, those are a good point. I think when it comes to Dan Danielle’s uh perspective, I think sometimes time helps me. You know, when I think about oh, it was a different era, even though I was I was I was but a little chicken in the ’90s I do and 2000s. I remember the media I was consuming. From rap music to comic view. I remember the era. I don’t understand it in 2024. Even when I saw Usher and I Barbara Walters is just on my mind when I see things like this. So even when I saw Usher on The View, I was like. Wow. This is a commercial for Usher, which is great. But Usher also is very close to Diddy, has said nothing. And then also had photos come out with him with Russell Simmons in Bali recently, within the last year and was asked nothing. Was asked nothing. Just just my God, Usher, you’re so sexy. You’re so great. Everybody go to your new residency in Paris. That’s an interesting moment in in in in media. That tipped for me, that just feels really interesting and it feels like a buck against that me too maybe that resentment for what the MeToo movement did, that’s maybe what what I’m seeing or a lot of publicists really making sure that they’re um–
Kaya Henderson: Yeah. That is what it is, you know. You know that they said on The View, these topics are off limits. And if you want Usher, who is one of the hottest stars right now to be on your thing, this is what you can ask and again.
Myles E. Johnson: Well I hope that–
Kaya Henderson: It’s a trade off.
Myles E. Johnson: They could be more brave and say, don’t come, don’t come then. If we can’t ask you questions, if you’re going to do these actions and we can’t ask you questions about these actions, then don’t come. And I and I and I wish that journalists were a little bit braver.
DeRay Mckesson: I do think it is interesting. Um. I think about things like the shade room, how they were unlocked da da da. I talked to some of my white friends. They literally are like, we don’t even know. They don’t know. Right. Whereas, you know, all of the we remember Kreayshawn, Blue face, whether you liked them or not, they were you could not escape them on the Black side of the Internet for a period of time. Mrs. Netta & Charles like there are all these in just pop culture forget even like hard news or whatever. There are these moments that happened uh on the internet, in media publications, and I consider Insta– like the shade room da da da one of those. And then you get the Joe Rogan’s, you get Barry Weiss, you get Jordan Peterson, you get Adam Tate, you get that ecosystem, which is like these are, you know, extremes in some way. And then you get Call Her Daddy, call you daddy, whatever that podcast is called.
Myles E. Johnson: Right.
DeRay Mckesson: You get a whole host of the podcasters. And it is interesting how the media landscape that mainstream media just ignores them like they aren’t, you know, when’s the last time you saw a CNN reporter in a shade room post? But there are a lot of people for whom that is their main way of consuming news. It just is true. Well you ain’t got to like it. It’s just true. And I don’t know when it will come to a head when there’s a collective conversation about standards or journalism or whatever. But it is interesting, and you know, I don’t know if you remember when Hollywood Unlocked reported that the queen had died. She didn’t. That was a thing. Um. You know, most recently, TMZ reported that Beyonce was going to be at the DNC. That did not happen. Right. And these are small things. I mean, it was I was at the DNC and people are telling me like people in the know are like, oh yeah, she coming. Because I saw it on and it’s like TMZ said that, she’s not coming, you know what I mean? But I do it is interesting and you have no incentive as a um you have no incentive as an artist. Wow. Like if you can if you can reach a gazillion people with Kai Cenat sitting in his living room who’s live streaming, why do CNN? I can get five million people in 20 minutes. Why do CNN? Do you know what I mean? Like that makes sense to me, which is an interesting challenge to be in.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. Don’t forget to follow us at @CrookedMedia on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we’ll see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Executive produced by me and special thanks to our weekly contributors Kaya Henderson, De’Ara Balenger, and Myles E. Johnson.
