This week, President Donald Trump signed an executive order aimed at ending cash bail in Washington, D.C. and other jurisdictions around the country. He summarized the largely successful criminal justice reform policy like this: “They kill people and they get out.” Well, it may come as a surprise (to no one) that this statement is… not accurate. But despite the data showing the policy works, Trump and his MAGA buddies want to end it. To gain a better understanding of all this, we spoke with Rena Karefa-Johnson, vice president of National Initiatives at FWD.us.
And in headlines: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is undergoing a major staffing shake-up, National Guard members are picking up trash in D.C., and Trump proposes military funeral honors for the January 6th rioter who was killed by an officer at the insurrection…. four and a half years later.
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TRANSCRIPT
Josie Duffy Rice: It’s Friday, August 29th. I’m Josie Duffy Rice in for Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show listening to the new John Batiste song, Petrichor, which he described as a climate change warning set to a dance beat. Appropriate, given that it is the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. [music break] On today’s show, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a major staffing shakeup, and the Air Force offers military funeral honors for a January 6th rioter, four and a half years after she was killed by an officer at the insurrection. But let’s start with cash bail. This week, Trump signed an executive order aimed at ending cash bail in Washington, D.C., and other jurisdictions around the country. The order instructs his administration to withhold federal funds from the district unless they change their bail policy, which eliminates cash bail in most cases and has been in effect for over 30 years. He also ordered Attorney General Pam Bondi to provide a list of states and localities that have ended cash bail for certain crimes and instructed agencies to identify the federal grants and contracts and funds that could be withheld from those jurisdictions unless they bring back cash bail. Here’s what Trump, as well-spoken as ever, had to say about the executive order.
[clip of President Donald Trump] One of the executive orders has to do with cashless bail. That was when the big crime in this country started. And I can tell you who did it, when, but I don’t want to do that, because others followed pretty quickly. But that was when it happened. Somebody kills somebody, they go in, don’t worry about it, no cash, come back in a couple of months, we’ll give you a trial, you never see the person again. And I mean, they kill people and they get out.
Josie Duffy Rice: As you may not be surprised to hear, this is not accurate. Eliminating cash bail does not mean that people accused of serious crimes like murder can’t be detained before trial. All it means is that their release will not be determined by how much money is in their wallet. Because in a cash bail system, people who can pay bail are released and people who can’t are stuck in jail. And over the past 10 years, an increasing number of jurisdictions have eliminated cash bail entirely. But although bail reform has been largely successful, Trump and his conservative buddies want to end it. And this is just the latest in Trump’s criminal justice-related executive order spree. It’s yet another concerning example of him expanding federal power and bending local and state law to his will. And it may result in the reversal of strong evidence-based policy reform at a time when crime in many places is at historic lows. So for more on bail reform and Trump’s executive order, I spoke to Rena Karefa-Johnson. She is the vice president of national initiatives at FWD.U.S., an organization working on immigration and criminal justice reform. Rena, welcome to What a Day.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.
Josie Duffy Rice: So as we said earlier, Trump’s executive order on Monday threatened to withhold federal funding from DC if the city does not bring back cash bail. So you are an expert on criminal justice policy. Can you just explain kind of on a big picture level how cash bail works and why there’s been a shift away from it over the last few years?
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Yeah, that’s a great question. Basically, when you get arrested or accused of a crime, for the most part, you go in front of a judge pretty shortly after. And the judge has three options. The judge can be like, go home, come to your next court date at this time. Another thing a judge can do is say, give us this amount of money, cash bail, um to ensure that you come back to court. That’s what cash bail was supposed to be about at its core, right? It was about collateral to ensure people came back to court, your bail is set at X. That’s what cash bail is. The other option is the judge can detain you um with no bail. So just say, you know what, you actually have to be in jail while we’re waiting your trial. Um. And those are the three options of what can happen.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right, and why do you think we’ve seen such a shift away from cash bail over the past, I would say 10 years, right? It’s been kind of a inflection point.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Yeah.
Josie Duffy Rice: In the criminal justice reform movement.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: I think over the last kind of 30 years, we saw this leaning in to kind of this idea of toughness. So, harsher policies, harsher sentences, and like I said, a distortion of this idea of bail as something that’s supposed to be collateral to make sure you come back to court, to something that just another mechanism to keep more people um in jail. So, there was a response to that because of the extraordinary amount of harm that those policies were wreaking in communities and cities. We had a situation on the tight, where half a million people, at any given day, were kind of languishing in jail, having not been convicted of a crime. And what that meant–.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: For people is they got arrested for any range of things. Protesting, shoplifting, jumping the turnstile. And because they weren’t able to pay the amount of cash bail that was set on their case, their entire life was upended. They were incarcerated and subject to the enormous violence of incarceration. They lose their jobs because, of course, if you can’t show up to your job, you won’t keep your job. They–
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: –lose their housing. For many people, their children get taken away from them because if you get arrested and your kid comes home to school and no one’s there, then you have a child welfare system case and can lose rights of your children. So basically, we had this system that says you’re innocent until you’re presumed guilty. But in practice, what we had was a system where white and rich people were afforded that kind of constitutional presumption and poor folks, Black folks, Brown folks, immigrant folks were basically having their lives ravaged before one thing had been proved against them. A big kind of–
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: –story that folks in this audience or anywhere might remember is Kalief Browder’s story, who was a 16-year-old kid who was arrested on allegations of stealing a backpack, had $3,000 bail set on his case, was not able to make that bail, was on Rikers Island for three years and endured so much horrific trauma and violence that he ultimately took his own life after he was released and his case was dismissed entirely. He was found not guilty. So stories like Kalief Browder and the organizing of communities created a larger consensus that criminalizing poverty isn’t cool, it’s not fair. Let’s switch our policies so that that’s not how we’re deciding who gets to be free and who doesn’t.
Josie Duffy Rice: Yeah, I mean, something that you brought up is this idea of where we draw the line, basically. You know, poor people kind of get one system and people with resources get another. And when we hear Trump and kind of his his little MAGA friends talk about this, they kind of keep framing it like, we’re just letting people walk right out, they’ve committed violent crimes, these are criminals, they’re endangering us. Um. So can you talk a little bit about what you would say in response to these comments? Um.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Yeah.
Josie Duffy Rice: Because they kind of do seem to work on people. I mean, people–
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Yeah.
Josie Duffy Rice: –believe this narrative on some level.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: I mean like, first and foremost, I would say shut up. Um. But no, in all seriousness, I think what we’re struggling with in this moment is an era where um people are hearing things that are factually inaccurate, but they’ve heard it over and over and over again. And it’s kind of hard to combat this um strategically created narrative that serves Republicans um with the data. You know there was a big study recently that just looked at 33 cities, 22 which had bail reform. 11 that didn’t, and did a very comprehensive analysis on whether or not bail reform and letting folks out more pre-trial increased crime. Definitively found, it did not increase crime. There’s also been studies that have looked to see whether or not states that have pushed a legislation to free more people pre- trial and let them fight their cases at home, impacted how many people showed up to court. It did not. So this idea that kind of being tough in this regard makes us safer or brings crime down or brings violence down is just not true. It’s not accurate. And I think that that makes sense, because I think if we thought that, like, toughness and police and incarceration were the things that made us safer, then we should unequivocally be the safest country in the world. And we’re not. We know that like addressing some of the root causes of these problems um, decreases crime and I, we’re almost in a political setting where I don’t even want to say that because I see the people rolling their eyes, but it’s just like, I don’t know what to tell you, it’s true.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right, right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Like Medicaid expansion gave people access to behavioral health care that reduced felony arrest from 20 to 32 percent. Access to SNAP reduced um, folks recidivating, so being re-arrested after they came home from prison significantly.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Like getting people what they need. Those are the most successful–
Josie Duffy Rice: School programs. Yeah.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Money. Those are the–
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: –most successful crime reduction strategies that we’ve seen in this country.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: But because what we’re actually talking about um isn’t safety, we can have this conversation about tough and soft on crime and eschew the conversation entirely about the solutions that work.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right. Rena, you were part of the effort that led to New York abolishing cash bail um a few years ago. And now Trump is kind of making all these threats that he’s going to try to enact these same policies that he is doing in DC and other places. And so is there a world in which he could you know override the policies in other places about cash bail? Um. So–
Yeah.
Josie Duffy Rice: What what kind of power does he actually have?
Rena Karefa-Johnson: I mean, I think when it comes to this administration, it’s slightly less instructive of a question of like, what can or can’t he do? And I think more productive to ask like how much are local leaders willing to resist kind of threats and intimidation. So I think it will be up to governors um to stand by the legislation and say, you know despite the threats, we’re not going to change those things. Especially given so much of our criminal legal system happens on a state level, very, very little of it happens on a federal level. So it would be a massively consequential shift to start–
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: –staking all of our state level policies based on what the president thinks folks should or shouldn’t do. And it would have extraordinary impacts on the number of people who are incarcerated pre-trial.
Josie Duffy Rice: So obviously both of our work focuses on criminal justice um and there has been a real bipartisan push for harsh and frankly stupid criminal justice policy um over the years. And a lot of it has only exacerbated the incarceration crisis that we face. Um. Well, also again, not really addressing crime. So how do you think that Democrats should be responding right now?
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Yeah.
Josie Duffy Rice: And what do you they should be doing differently?
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Oh my gosh, everything.
Josie Duffy Rice: How much time do we have? [indistinct]
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Um. That’s such an excellent question. And what I would encourage Democrats to do is like not take the bait. The crime conversation is a trap. If you’re in a tough on crime, soft on crime paradigm, I understand why that’s extremely hard to get out of politically. Um. That being said, I think that the reason why the conversation is on those terms is because Democrats historically have been better at the actual solutions that make people safe. Americans will get down with this crime conversation, but like actually what they care about is safety. Actually what they about is living in a city and a community where people have access to housing, where people have access to mental health care, where people are not struggling on the streets. That’s kind of what folks want. And I think redirecting the conversation to the solutions that we talked about, that definitively, like quickly, and in ways that are much cheaper than incarceration and police, make people safer, is where this conversation should be. The crime conversation is trash. It’s like, it’s just vibes. It’s not data based, it’s not fact-based, it’s not actually something that you can win with, don’t walk into kind of the trap about crime, which, in my opinion, is literally just being used as a pretext to erode all of our civil rights and erode due process protections and just make it easier to lock all of us up with less process um and for longer.
Josie Duffy Rice: Thank you so much, Rena, for joining us.
Rena Karefa-Johnson: Thank you.
Josie Duffy Rice: That was my conversation with Rena Karefa-Johnson, Vice President of National Initiatives at FWS.U.S. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]
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Josie Duffy Rice: Here’s what else we’re following today.
[sung] Headlines.
[clip of Vice President J.D. Vance] This happens too much in our country. And if you look, we really do have, I think, a mental health crisis in the United States of America. We take way more psychiatric medication than any other nation on earth. And I think it’s time for us to start asking some very hard questions about the root causes of this violence.
Josie Duffy Rice: This is Vice President J.D. Vance weighing in on the why behind Wednesday’s mass shooting at a school in Minneapolis. Blaming the mental health crisis and ignoring actual guns is a well-worn tactic of Vance’s. During the vice presidential debate, he said that a big factor in American gun violence is, quote, “mental health substance abuse.” Which is not a thing. Those words don’t go together. He also suggested building quote, “stronger doors at schools,” ones that quote, “lock better.” Two students were killed and more than a dozen were injured at Annunciation Catholic Church, where students of the parish school attended mass. The shooter was identified yesterday as an Annunciation alum. Their motive isn’t totally clear, but authorities are examining a trove of writings and online videos that they left behind. Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey spoke to Good Morning America on Thursday, where he shared a different perspective from the Vice President’s.
[clip of Jacob Frey] People who say that this is not about guns, you got to be kidding me. This is about guns.
[clip of Karoline Leavitt] The secretary asked her to resign, she said she would, and then she said she wouldn’t, so the president fired her, which he has every right to do. It was president Trump who was overwhelmingly reelected on November 5th. This woman has never received a vote in her life and the president has the authority to fire those who are not aligned with his mission.
Josie Duffy Rice: On Thursday, White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, said that Trump had fired Center for Disease Control and Prevention Director Susan Monarez after less than a month on the job. Classic Trump, old school Trump. Four other senior CDC officials resigned in response to her departure. Monarez had refused to resign this week amid pressure to change the CDC’s vaccine policy because she believes in science. Imagine that. So on Wednesday, the Department of Health and Human Services tweeted that she was no longer with the agency. And Monarez’s lawyer said a member of the White House’s Office of Personnel had given her the boot. But Trump has not, and her lawyer argues that Monarez is a Senate-confirmed appointee, so only the president himself can fire her. On Thursday afternoon, the White house reportedly moved forward with the ouster anyway. Selecting current HHS deputy secretary, Jim O’Neill, as the acting CDC director. Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy called for Senate Health Committee oversight of the agency and said the CDC’s next vaccine advisory meeting should be canceled. Vermont Independent Senator Bernie Sanders also called for a bipartisan investigation into Monarez’s dismissal.
[clip of President Donald Trump] I’m a big fan of Ashli Babbitt, okay? And Ashli Babbitt was a really good person who was a big MAGA fan, Trump fan, and she was innocently standing there. They even say trying to sort of hold back the crowd. And a man did something to her that was unthinkable when he shot her. And I think it’s a disgrace. I’m gonna look into that.
Josie Duffy Rice: That was President Trump earlier this year singing the praises of alleged Capitol rioter, Ashli Babbitt, who was killed by law enforcement on January 6th, 2021. This week, the conservative legal group, Judicial Watch, posted a letter that indicates that the Air Force will give military funeral honors to Babbitt. She was an Air Force veteran and her family requested military honors after her death. The Biden administration declined to offer them, quote, “due to the circumstances preceding her death.” And those circumstances, you may ask, on January 6th, Babbitt stormed the U.S. Capitol building along with thousands of MAGA loyalists, allegedly to stop the certification of the 2020 presidential election, and a Capitol police officer fatally shot her while she attempted to enter a hallway that leads directly to the chamber of the U.S. House. And that’s according to the DC U. S. Attorney Office’s report. The Air Force says the offer of military funeral honors was in response to Trump offering clemency to everyone accused. And convicted of offenses on January 6th. It also claimed that Babbitt would have only been accused of misdemeanor trespassing. The letter even extends a personal invitation for her family to visit the Pentagon. In May, the Trump administration agreed to pay Babbit’s family nearly $5 million to settle a wrongful death suit filed by her estate in 2024. Things are getting a little weird in D.C. Most of the National Guard troops that Trump deployed are now fully armed with pistols and rifles to handle the so-called crime emergency. But rather than crime emergencies, they’ve been spotted picking up trash in the park by the White House, they’ve been spotted raking leaves, and calmly mulching cherry trees. This is all happening in full camo, by the way. So basically the government is paying roughly $1 million a day for gardening and custodial services. If only there was a government agency that addressed government overspending. Wouldn’t that be interesting? Or maybe one that handled park cleanup, like, say, the National Park Service, which would normally be doing this if they hadn’t lost nearly 2,000 workers after Trump just completely decimated their budget. So this is going great. Also, as it turns out, sending troops all over the city is not great for the restaurant business. The number of people dining out dropped 31% last week, despite Trump saying the complete opposite this week.
[clip of President Donald Trump] I am so proud of what these people, every one of them, what they’ve done in D.C., because to literally stop crime on a button. I’d walk down that street right now, if I were, friends of mine are going out to dinner now. They haven’t gone out to dinner in four years. They were afraid they were petrified. Half the restaurants closed because nobody could go because they’re afraid to go outside. Now those restaurants are open, and new restaurants are opening up. It’s like a boomtown.
Josie Duffy Rice: So how is DC Mayor Muriel Bowser responding?
[clip of DC Mayor Muriel Bowser] This is what um we think in just a couple of weeks of experience has worked. Having more federal law enforcement officers on the street. We think having more stops that got to illegal guns has helped. We think that there’s more accountability in the system or at least perceived accountability in the system that is driving down illegal behavior.
Josie Duffy Rice: So basically, she’s like, this is great. What’s the problem? What could go wrong? Boswer also added that she will support Trump’s $2 billion request to improve infrastructure, including the federal takeover of Union Station. And that is the news. [music break].
Josie Duffy Rice: That is all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, listen to the Flood Lines podcast for the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, and tell your friends to listen. And if you are into reading and not just about the newly released episode of Flood Lines, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. So check it out and subscribe at crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Josie Duffy Rice, and make sure to say happy Labor Day to the National Guard members picking up trash on Monday. [music break] What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Emily Fohr. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Sean Ali, Gina Polleck, and Laura Newcomb. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. We had help from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
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