“Capote vs. The Swans, Kate Middleton, & Rebecca Ferguson’s Mystery Co-Star” w. Tom Hollander | Crooked Media
March 06, 2024
Keep It
“Capote vs. The Swans, Kate Middleton, & Rebecca Ferguson’s Mystery Co-Star” w. Tom Hollander

In This Episode

Ira and Louis discuss the mysteries surrounding Kate Middleton’s alleged disappearance and which of Rebecca Ferguson’s male co-stars yelled at her on set, why The Traitors isn’t actually a good game, RuPaul’s critique of Madonna, and Dune nerds hating on Zendaya. Tom Hollander joins to discuss Feud: Capote vs. The Swans and working with great directors like Gus Van Sant and Robert Altman. Plus, a discussion of Capote’s legendary Black and White Ball.


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Ira Madison III And we are back with an all new episode of Keep It. I am the impactful, Ira Madison, the third.


Louis Virtel And I am Louis Virtel. And I just want to say I did something that I feel like a lot of our listeners do that I never do, which is spent the entire week bingeing reality TV. And I want to say it has brought me no closer to civilization. I feel like an alien. I feel like I don’t know what’s going on. I miss my regular life. And the show I am talking about is The Traitors, both UK and Australia. I’m one episode away from finishing Australia and the. My only takeaway from watching this much of the show is that if I ever arrive at a party late and people are playing the game Mafia, it is fun just to sit and watch the game of Mafia. That’s it. I have nothing else to say about the show. Why am I watching this? Watching people guess who a traitor is with no evidence and then calling it a game? It’s like a bad game. If anything, it’s nice to know you can make good TV out of a bad game.


Ira Madison III Yeah. So I’m in a group text with my friend, Angelina Burnett, who’s been on the show before recently, former guest host of the show. And Rick, he’s apologized to us for, quote unquote, ruining our enjoyment of the show, because she’s still enjoying it, but she continues to tweet every week. This game is broken. It makes no sense. It’s impossible, sort of, to really figure out how to win the game.


Louis Virtel Right.


Ira Madison III Faithful. But it’s still fun to watch. And I’m like, yes, I know that. But it is still fun. It’s you’re watching it for the theatrics.


Louis Virtel Totally.


Ira Madison III And the UK version. It’s giving you theatrics. It’s.


Louis Virtel Oh, yeah. No. Also, lots of fun twists and turns in the UK version. The host of the UK is, a fun, drunk version of a host, Claudia Winkleman. Not as good as Alan Cumming, who I think is bringing more campy gusto than I think the show needs. But, the problem with the show is also, once the faithfuls, the good contestants, start sussing out the traitors, they eliminate them. And then after a while, the traitors then just have to add more new traitors. And then then the contestants have even less to go off of in terms of figuring out who they are. So it’s just it’s not a fair game, nor does it even feel like a game. Nor do you even feel like, am I getting to the end? Like, am I doing good? There’s no I’m doing good part of this show.


Ira Madison III There’s silly conjecture that happens to what’s, you know, a traitor has been recruited later into the game when someone says, well, you came down to the dinner table acting different today, and it’s like, no, they did it. They’re not a traitor.


Louis Virtel Right. No, they just walked in. Yeah, right. And also it’s like everybody kind of like behavior changes aren’t something that would necessarily indicate somebody is a traitor. It’s like there’s no rubric for how to play the game or what you’re actually looking for. So anyway, it’s confusing and I can’t stop watching.


Ira Madison III I will say the the people who seem to like have at least, hacked the broken game are Sandra the most. And then also cwrt your sister has figured out.


Louis Virtel We’re talking about Sandra from survivor Sandra Diaz- Twine.


Ira Madison III Yes. Sandra has at least figured out and CT from The Challenge. They’re both on the current season of the US. She’s at least figured out that this game is completely random, except for the traitors are always going to murder people who are either coming for them or don’t have suspicion on them as traitors, so they’re completely useless to them in the game to throw suspicion on.


Louis Virtel Right.


Ira Madison III So Sandra, in her confessionals, has revealed that if you figure out who the traitors are, then you should buddy up to the traitors so that they don’t ax you when they murder people at night. And then ideally, when you get to the end of the end of the game, is you get to split the prize money with whoever’s left in the finale. But if there’s one traitor in the game, then they take the whole prize pot, right? Ideally, if you get to the finale and you know who a traitor has been all along and they trust you, you can then vote to banish them in the finale. And not give them any money and.


Louis Virtel Right. And then and then win for yourself like you get. You can contain the threat of a traitor by keeping them in the game.


Ira Madison III Yes.


Louis Virtel That’s said, what kind of game is that? You know who the threat is and also just keep them around it. Just like that. It’s not really compelling, I don’t know.


Ira Madison III Although the lunacy of this season, because they added even more reality show people as opposed to a mix of reality show people and, you know, normies is that they all revert it to their reality show. You know, sort of roots, forming alliances, right? For no reason. So you have, like Peter the Bachelor for we get a alliance of people and then the housewives forming an alliance, or they’re basically voting against one another. And it’s we’re supposed to be getting out traitors here, baby.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right.


Ira Madison III You guys just brought out everyone who’s about your friends.


Louis Virtel And yet again, I’m still watching the damn show. So just once you get started, just know that this is going to be your life for a few weeks. You know, it’s again, it reminds me of that feeling of that one Christmas when we all decided to watch making a murderer. And I’m like, now my Christmas is ruined, and I’m thinking about this horrible cold case, and why did I want to get into this in the first place? What was the gratifying part? Not that they’re the same thing, this actual docu series about a real murderer and The Traitors, but it is just a whole bunch of hours of television leading up to, oh, I guess I that was entertaining enough for me. That’s like, all I get out of it.


Ira Madison III You know, I thought you were going to say that you’d been watching something like The Real World. Like me, because I’ve been watching Real World Austin on Netflix.


Louis Virtel Oh, no. Wait. Sorry. Who’s on Austin season?


Ira Madison III That is Wes’s first season.


Louis Virtel Okay. Yes.


Ira Madison III And then you have Nehemiah.


Louis Virtel Yes.


Ira Madison III You have Johanna. You have Danny.


Louis Virtel Of course, of course, of course. This is like a chaotic, drunken season.


Ira Madison III It’s it’s actually very fun. And this this is a longer thing that we could talk about in another episode, but there is just something quaint about watching the show. It came out summer of 2005. So this is after our freshman year of college. And there’s something quaint about watching people immediately at the onset of Facebook, but they don’t probably don’t even really have it yet. Yeah. And just do you remember how excited people were to be on the Real World, just to live in a house with strangers and stop acting polite, start acting real. And they’re just fun, drunk college students making out with two girls make out in the hot tub immediately, and.


Louis Virtel Imagine.


Ira Madison III Go to the bar and get into a fight because they’re just sort of buzzing off of being filmed. But social media has sort of replaced all of that now.


Louis Virtel Right. Well, also specifically about the Real World right around that time, that’s when the show became it was already aware of itself as a legendary show like. And around that time, you could watch old seasons of the Real World all the time, like that was in the they were cast with their TV contestants by that point were legendary. So and also the show is taking the post Las Vegas turn of now. We really all are alcohol poisoning ourselves and that counts as reality.


Ira Madison III And lastly, you forget about the fact that before the prevalence of reality TV cameras being everywhere, like chill, you can live in Idaho right now and walk outside and there’s probably a reality show being filmed on your street and you wouldn’t bat an eye, right? On this show, you forget that people used to be angry about these young college kids showing up in their cities and having cameras follow them everywhere, so people are starting fights with them at this club in Austin in the first episode, because they hate that the Real World kids are in their bar.


Louis Virtel Wow. They’re like, let us have our breakfast tacos in peace. We love our lives here in Austin. We love having breakfast at a picnic table.


Ira Madison III I remember some of the kids from the like the Brooklyn, the Williamsburg season or something had said that people used to make fun of them and call them posers in New York for being on the Real World and imagine someone in Williamsburg not wanting a camera in front of them.


Louis Virtel Also, imagine using the word poser. And so, Ashlee Simpson culture exactly 2004-05 yeah.


Ira Madison III Very anti Avril Lavigne, she’s posing.


Louis Virtel She got that tire out her neck from Hot Topic. Oh my God, the dialog. We were so silly.


Ira Madison III All right, so, we have a fun episode this week. Louis and I are feuding formally.


Louis Virtel Yes.


Ira Madison III We’re going to discuss the new season of Feud: Capote versus the Swans. Let me tell you something. What’s good for the Swan?


Louis Virtel What was that, Asop?


Ira Madison III Is that good for the swander? Oh, okay. Okay. All right. You got me that time. Yeah. And then also there are mysteries abound.


Louis Virtel Two big ones.


Ira Madison III In the world of pop culture. First of all, Rebecca Ferguson has an opp.


Louis Virtel Right.


Ira Madison III We don’t know who, but we’re going to figure it out by the time this episode is over.


Louis Virtel And also, I want to say this is the best press that Dune two has gotten yet. Rebecca Ferguson being like somebody was an asshole to me on set once, and I’m going to let America and the world solve who it is, and we’re going to get into that, to that.


Ira Madison III Right. The press tour has mostly been looking at how great Zendaya looks, right? And of course.


Louis Virtel You don’t say. Yeah.


Ira Madison III Which is maybe actually not the press that you want. If you were anyone else in the film, because then the press is also look how great Zendaya looks and look at everyone else wearing cos yeah.


Louis Virtel Yeah, everybody else is wearing their like post-apocalyptic pseudo athleisure glamor. Yeah.


Ira Madison III And Anya Taylor-Joy walking around looking like a foreign correspondent. Yeah. In the Middle East.


Louis Virtel Right. Christiane Amanpour Araki’s.


Ira Madison III And then also Kate Middleton. Where is she?


Louis Virtel And what is she? Do we know what she sounds like? Does she have a human voice?


Ira Madison III And. Will we be attacked? In the YouTube comments for referring to her as Kate Middleton by Royalists. Royalists are crazy people who are obsessed with the royal family and usually are not even British.


Louis Virtel Oh, of course, of course. What do they want you to call her? Like Duchess of Cambridge?


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Louis Virtel Oh, okay. Well, it’s not going to happen. It’s too long. We have one Duchess, and her name is Fergie. Fergie.


Ira Madison III But speaking of feud, our guest this week is none other than Tom Hollander himself, who plays Truman Capote in the series Feud: Capote versus Swans.


Louis Virtel And I hope we get into just the specifics of doing that voice, because I have a confession at work at Kimmel, we cannot stop doing the Truman Capote voice. Somebody will just throw out a question. And then the three of us respond to Truman Capote. Did I mention this before?


Ira Madison III No.


Louis Virtel When the Super Bowl was happening, they’re like, Truman, are you going to the Super Bowl? And you just respond like Kansas City, an entire city devoted to barbecue sauce? It doesn’t really speak to me. It’s the most fun voice. It’s the most fun voice.


Ira Madison III You get some Truman Capote in voice from Jimmy at the Oscars.


Louis Virtel I it’s I certainly I’ve pitched it. I certainly have pitched it. I feel like may be passing that up. Not really an an impressions guy or a song and dance guy.


Ira Madison III I’ve never really seen Jimmy do a two step.


Louis Virtel Not Ciara is not a part of the telecast that I can confirm.


Louis Virtel Can you teach him the, dance that got you into Juilliard?


Louis Virtel You know, it’s been years since Savion Glover had me in class. Let’s see if we can get into that.


Living his dreams. It’s not as hard as it may seem.


Louis Virtel The way I bring in the funk, you won’t believe out.


Ira Madison III Okay. That’s our show. And we’re going to get started. Also, listeners, I’m doing my first live comedy show, and I need you to buy tickets because they gotta sell.


Louis Virtel Oh, well, we’ll discuss that, too.


Ira Madison III Yes. Just go to IraMadison.com. It’s at the Music Hall of Williamsburg, March 20th at 8 p.m., and my guest is Cody Rigsby and Jay Jurden. Because he’s very funny. And Peyton Dix.


Louis Virtel Love Jay Jurden.


Ira Madison III Yes, yes. I mean, comedians shouldn’t be that hot.


Louis Virtel It’s upsetting. No, I also it’s like he’s it’s not just hot. It’s like shredded. I mean, I didn’t know you could get like.


Ira Madison III Like he’s an he loves the X-Men and he is an X-Men. He’s Colossus.


Louis Virtel Right? No. The kind of body that looks like you’ve been struck by lightning and it all went right for you.


Ira Madison III Unlike that time, Screech got struck by lightning and could just read women’s thoughts.


Louis Virtel Problematic in retrospect.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Creepy episode. Anyway, my comedy show, IraMadison.com to get tickets. Do that and we will be right back with more Keep It.




Louis Virtel First, where in the world is Kate Middleton? Spoiler in an Audi. And who screamed at Rebecca Ferguson? Spoiler not Tom cruise. You know what? We don’t know that for sure. I think he talks and screams, so it just feels like he would be doing that every so often. But, starting with Kate Middleton. Yeah. So it dawned on everybody on the internet, I guess at the same time that we hadn’t seen her in a couple of months. And then people started wondering what the deal was, and I regret to inform them that they formally said about Kate Middleton, you will not be seeing her until April because she’s having some sort of abdominal surgery now.


Ira Madison III I is it that they would say.


Louis Virtel They being the deep state? Yes. So if you don’t know a couple of the dates. Christmas of last year, Kate attended Christmas services at Sandringham. One of the great words with the royal family January 16th. She underwent a planned abdominal surgery. January 17th the official Prince and Princess of Wales Instagram account posted. Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales was admitted to the London clinic yesterday for planned abdominal surgery. The surgery was successful and is expected that she will remain in hospital for 10 to 14 days before returning home to continue her recovery. Based on the current medical advice, she is unlikely to return to public duties until after Easter. Great. And then, Prince William visited the hospital a week later. King Charles visited the hospital, and then at the last minute, Prince William canceled, attending a service of thanksgiving held in honor for King Constantine, the last king of Greece. He withdrew to a personal matter, and Kensington Palace added that Kate continues to do well. Okay, here’s the thing. As much as people are speculating that it’s a botched face procedure specifically, or something like a hysterectomy or a treatment treatment for an eating disorder, it feels to me like she had a but by feels to me, I mean, I have a friend who’s a doctor and this is what she said, and I’m stealing this from her. She had major colorectal surgery and maybe has something like a colostomy bag, and that’s why she can’t be around until after Easter. That to me, feels like the most rational response.


Ira Madison III Okay, well, I want to talk about this. This lady reappeared, quote unquote lady period the other day in her in her car.


Louis Virtel I’m sorry, Ira’s eyes just expanded, like to 11 times the normal size. I was like, the Geico gecko just flew out of me.


Ira Madison III Okay, this one’s not Kate in that car.


Louis Virtel There’s a picture of Kate in the back of a car that her mom is driving, and it’s very grainy and she’s wearing sunglasses. And it may be Veronica Lake. I don’t know who that even is in that picture.


Ira Madison III But. That is Michael Caine in Dressed to Kill. Okay, honey.


Louis Virtel He’s going in that elevator, you better watch out. There’s a knife on the trench.


Ira Madison III That is. That is the Lucille doll that Buster was running around with Arrested Development. Okay, that was not Kate. That was some Evelyn Salt shit.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Yes. Down to the hair. Yes.


Ira Madison III Shades. Yeah. And. And also, the photo is grainy. Who, like, who has an android at the castle.


Louis Virtel Right? No, it looked like it was filmed on a Sega Genesis. I mean, I just don’t know who that was.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Buckingham and got a family plan. If you’re kidding me, that’s a lot of bitches.


Louis Virtel It’s also so interesting because, by the way, this reminds me of I’m so sorry, the traitors in that anybody can become fascinating to you if you’re left with one question about them. Because, by the way, before, who has ever said anything qualitative about Kate Middleton? I saw that wedding as as I’ve said before, no one waves better if someone standing in front of a crowd, something about the curvature of her hand is ready for pageant culture. I love to see it. That’s where my questions ended. I had nothing else to think about. Kate Middleton. And now, finally, there is a level of doubt about what she could be up to, even though yet again, I still do not know what this woman sounds like.


Ira Madison III Okay, now I will say that there was a royal who died recently. Okay? Thomas Kingston, the husband of Prince William’s cousin, Lady Gabriella Kingston, was found dead at his parents home in. What? One of those Macbeth cities? Gloucestershire. Gloucestershire?


Louis Virtel Right. Glous.


Ira Madison III So there’s something from the Scottish play. Okay. Like you don’t say the. You can’t say the city is either. Right. To haunt you.


Louis Virtel Specifically on a podcast. Yes.


Ira Madison III And people believe that this man was having an affair. With Kate and William murdered him.


Louis Virtel Oh, just walked right in. Like the Jane style. Yeah.


Ira Madison III I mean, he could. Who’s stopping him? Do you?


Louis Virtel Not the hundreds of guards. Okay. Okay, okay. Nobody. Never mind.


Ira Madison III Do you stop Prince William?


Louis Virtel You think he gets right off the polo horse and is like, I have a murder to do?


Ira Madison III He’s the one who knocks. Politely, though.


Louis Virtel You get balled enough to go bad.


Ira Madison III That is one of the rumors. You know that. That he’s covering up an affair. There’s rumors that she. That she was in a coma. She still could be.


Louis Virtel Right. Well, again, the picture we saw.


Ira Madison III We don’t know.


Louis Virtel Her. It was giving, like the drawing of an alien in my Trapper Keeper in sixth grade.


Ira Madison III They could not find a courtroom artist even at 24 hours notice. Yeah, right.


Louis Virtel That photograph did look like it was drawn in colored pencil. That’s how grainy it is. Rose art is a is complicit.


Ira Madison III Anyway, those are those are the rumors about Kate. There’s some other, much more misogynistic ones that we don’t have to get into. But if you want to look them up and.


Louis Virtel Drop them in the comments.


Ira Madison III Oh.


Louis Virtel You said it, we didn’t. And then we just nod along and have a laugh.


Ira Madison III But my other question is. Where are Harry and Meghan at? What are they up to?


Louis Virtel Are they still podcasting giants or whatever?


Ira Madison III Well, remember she quit their podcast that she didn’t really want to do, but now she’s doing it again.


Louis Virtel Okay.


Ira Madison III For some reason, I guess they need the money.


Louis Virtel I have no guess as to what with what’s up with their finances. I also, by the way, don’t understand this. About half of the working entertainment world, namely, if you’re an actress from like, sorry, this is a detour. If you’re an actor who, like, mainly worked in, say, the 80s and now it’s, you know, today, 2024, what’s up with you? Did you have to marry somebody rich? Is there a certain kind of money that was made then that could be invested? Well, and now you continue to do well because I’m just saying anybody with an Oscar nomination before 1995, I’m worried about you.


Ira Madison III You’re worried about Nancy Allen.


Louis Virtel I mean, just in general it has nothing to do with her finances, but of course.


Ira Madison III Of course she was a Golden Globe nominee, not an Oscar nominee.


Louis Virtel Yeah yeah yeah yeah I’m talking about the Mary McDonnell’s. I’m talking about the, you know, Pauline Collins. Yeah.


Ira Madison III Okay, well, Mary McDonnell, she did. She did. Battlestar Galactica.


Louis Virtel Okay. Who knows what that pays.


Ira Madison III And and Major Crimes, the spinoff of The Closer.


Louis Virtel Now, that’s Mary McDonald. The. This is Mary McDonnell, who is in Dances With Wolves.


Ira Madison III Oh, well, I don’t know. Maybe the wolves had a payment plan.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right.


Ira Madison III You see how Kevin Costner’s payroll?


Louis Virtel Because that’s a good payroll to be on. Take a flight out to Wyoming or Montana or wherever he is. All they’ve got is time and money there.


Ira Madison III And, you know, he got Whitney money, too.


Louis Virtel That’s right.


Ira Madison III Not just money from The Bodyguard. She probably left him something in the will.


Louis Virtel You think so?


Ira Madison III Her favorite white man? Probably.


Louis Virtel You think he was really her favorite white man?


Ira Madison III Who else would there be?


Louis Virtel Yeah. I’m trying to come up with a number two. I don’t have an answer to that. I guess it would be Kevin Costner.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Louis Virtel Clive Davis. Sorry.


Ira Madison III Yeah, yeah. Clive got his own shit. You know, like Clive, Clive, Clive got his own shit. I ain’t got to give Clive nothing. I ain’t got to give Clive nothing, baby. Okay? Clive know how to take care of himself. But that was why I.


Louis Virtel Also didn’t know. Yeah. Whitney is lightly, Sly Stone. Okay. Yeah. Little James Brown in there. Yeah.


Ira Madison III One thing about me playing the Snatch Game and RuPaul Charles is Drag Race. I will make Ru laugh.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right. Right.


Ira Madison III And will I win? No. Will it make sense? No, but Ru will laugh.


Louis Virtel That’s by the way. That’s the angle you have to take on Snatch Game. If it makes too much sense, like the joy is immediately lost or you. We get the joke immediately and then we’re done with that. Whereas if you just add absurdity, we’re laughing at the absurdity.


Ira Madison III Also, RuPaul’s is sense of humor is so blatantly obvious at this point. Yes, right. If you cannot make RuPaul laugh, you’re not even remotely funny.


Right. Start with the class on social cues before you get to Drag Race.


Ira Madison III Okay, I just have one more question about Harry and Meghan.


Louis Virtel Okay.


Ira Madison III Because, you know, like Tyler Perry is one of the godfathers. Correct. Of the kids and mount them their house in Montecito. Everything for the Oprah interview. Do you think that they sat down and watched Mea Culpa?


Louis Virtel Oh. I think maybe she did know he or she would make him watch too.


Ira Madison III He loved that black shit. Come on. He’s probably seen more than her. That’s probably protest to the odds. I just want to know if they saw Trevante Rhodes and Kelly Rowland clapping, cheeks rolling around in paint. Does this mean you saw the sex scene?


Louis Virtel No.


Ira Madison III Yes. It was. It was my Keep It last week.


Louis Virtel Oh, of course, of course, of course.


Ira Madison III Did you see the scene online of him having sex on a canvas, rolling around covered in paint?


Louis Virtel Oh, my God.


Ira Madison III It’s vile.


Louis Virtel It’s giving throwback to Farrah Fawcett’s controversial, expressionistic art phase where she would go on Letterman and brag about painting naked. This used to be considered amazing in the 90s, like when celebrities would be wacky.


Ira Madison III It was a little easy to do then, to be honest.


Louis Virtel Right? Because you needed a stunt? You know what I mean? Just like the world was very oriented around things like Dennis Rodman in a wedding dress, you know, things like that.


Ira Madison III Yeah. All right, so, Louis, what’s our second mystery?


Louis Virtel Okay, so Rebecca Ferguson, who, as you know, is an actress, she is in the Dune film. She is in The Greatest Showman, whatever that is. I just know I can’t see that. Whatever that is.


Ira Madison III She is in the Mission Impossible films as a character whose name I do not remember. Because that is not the important part of those films.


Louis Virtel No. And as you know, those are written by. So, Rebecca Ferguson was talking in an interview about how on a movie, she was getting screamed at by a, quote, absolute idiot of a costar. That is, by the way, the underrated part of the story. She’s not just saying this person was mean to her. She thinks this person’s an idiot. So I feel like that should get into our our analysis here. And she says he was number one on the call sheet. Here are some quotes. I remember there was a moment and this human being was being so insecure and angry because this person couldn’t get the scenes out, and I think I was so vulnerable and uncomfortable that I got screamed at. But because this person was number one on the call sheet, there was no safety net for me. So no one had my back and I would cry. Walking off set. This person would say things to her like, you call yourself an actor and this is what I have to work with in front of the film’s crew. I just stood there breaking, she remembered. The next day, she told the individual to get off my set. She recalled being so scared of the confrontation. I looked at this person and said, you can f off. I’m going to work towards a tennis ball. I never want to see you again. And then I remember the producers came up and said, you can’t do this to number one. We have to let this person be on set. Ferguson says she requested to act to the back of the co-star’s head. And I did, she said. I thought it shouldn’t have to be that way. And I remember going to the director afterward and saying, what is happening? The director said, you’re right. I am not taking care of everyone else. I’m trying to fluff this person because it’s so unstable, and it was great from that moment, but it took so long for me to get to that. You know, what’s interesting is a lot of the people that are being tossed around in this rumor mill, she then went on in like junket interviews and seemed to be sort of friendly with all of them. Like like she’s perfectly friendly, sitting alongside Jake Gyllenhaal, who this is rumored to be about. They were in a movie called Life. Another one is Michael Fassbender. They had a very friendly rapport in interviews after their movie. But a lot of people are now also saying Hugh Grant, who I don’t believe has been nice one time on a set.


Ira Madison III Now, here’s something that I have to say.


Louis Virtel Okay.


Ira Madison III She said that it is not Tom cruise, my king.


Louis Virtel I’m saying it would be so awkward if you cried on the podcast.


Ira Madison III He would never yell at a woman on set. Okay. He would be complicit in their years long disappearance. But.


Louis Virtel Nazanin Boniadi. Come on Keep It.


Ira Madison III Yelling is just rude.


Louis Virtel Yeah.


Ira Madison III That’s Shelly’s real name.


Louis Virtel Yeah, we did hear that one time when Tom was mad at other people for not complying with Covid protocols. But I feel like I feel like his yelling would be all business I don’t know.


Ira Madison III Yeah. And then, you know, he sent them a cake afterwards.


Louis Virtel Right. And he remembers them on all of their birthdays. He’s one of those creepy people.


Ira Madison III Yeah. She also said it was not Hugh Jackman. And let me tell you something. Hugh Jackman isn’t yelling that women, right? Not in that way.


Louis Virtel No, I mean, he’s he’s he’s giggling so hard he screamed. He Australia, and they don’t have that kind of rage there. Unless of course, you’re Judy Davis.


Ira Madison III Yeah, he’s just doing his boy from Oswego. Yeah. And having a laugh with the girls. Sure. Okay.


Louis Virtel Right, a good time Australian. Yes.


Ira Madison III Yeah. And now people also suspect that it is not Dwayne The Rock Johnson because he came out in support of her. For sharing. You know, her journey of being yelled that on set. And what I would like to posit is, if you were the person who yelled at Rebecca Ferguson, would it not make sense for you to publicly support her in talking about the mystery costar? Because she’s not going to respond.


Louis Virtel I mean, I love that.


Ira Madison III It was you, okay.


Louis Virtel You know who would do that? Kim Cottrell, you know, she would get right on the Instagram comments, but she’s a rare kind of celebrity in that way.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Louis Virtel I know you’re right. That is smart to get out ahead of it. And The Rock has got some like he’s like a three steps ahead guy.


Ira Madison III He’s a wrestler okay. And let’s not forget that he maybe still sort of has, aspirations of going into politics. Sure. So. I would buy a little bit of, you know, smoke and mirrors, a little bit of traitor’s behavior, if you will.


Louis Virtel The theme of this episode. Yes.


Ira Madison III Everyone’s a traitor.


Louis Virtel I have to say, the. So the movie that Hugh Grant and Rebecca Ferguson were in together is Florence Foster Jenkins. Where this theory falls apart is that obviously Hugh Grant is not number one on the call sheet. Meryl Streep as he was Jake, I guess.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Louis Virtel He played the foster. But also like calling someone an absolute idiot. I mean, like, I feel like that’s an interesting thing to call him, other than maybe he’s so dismissive of all his costars that you could call that idiotic behavior. But he also was clearly, you know, kind of a literary guy. And by that, I mean just British. And I don’t I don’t know that I can picture her calling him an idiot unless he was just so venomous, I don’t know.


Ira Madison III Okay, so I’ve got into the Reddit threads.


Louis Virtel Thank you.


Ira Madison III I use your snorkel. I usually only want to do that when I want to find the address of my local KKK chapter, but. Okay.


Louis Virtel Local?


Ira Madison III No. Out of towners. All right. Okay.


Louis Virtel Just the townees.


Ira Madison III Yeah. No new clans.


Louis Virtel Yeah, right.


Ira Madison III So, in terms of Hercules. Dwayne Johnson. That’s the movie they did together. You could see them acting together in multiple scenes. She was very specific that she refused to act face to face with this person. And they’ve been friendly a bit on the press tour. Jake Gyllenhaal, they seem to also be sort of chummy with one another. Right. Fassbender did an entire press tour together. Can’t be Hemsworth.


Louis Virtel Again, I’m just ruling out the continent of Australia. You know that about me? Okay.


Ira Madison III Yes. Ewan McGregor. Doctor. Sleep. There’s a possibility that it’s him, but I just don’t buy that from Ewan McGregor. I feel like we would have heard that from other actors.


Louis Virtel Right, right, right. I do feel like he maybe doesn’t work as much, sort of in an A-list way as I would expect someone like Ewan McGregor to work. And again, I mean, you know, when Juliette Binoche was here, I mean, she had still had the trauma in her eyes from Jeremy Irons. And then that answered all my questions about why he’s not in every project of all time.


Ira Madison III Now, if we do say it’s Hugh Grant. There is something about the fact that she never talks about Hugh Grant, and this person on Reddit said that they watch multiple interviews. And maybe they shared more scenes together in Florence Foster and the Jenkins. And they were cut because of the feud between both of them.


Louis Virtel Wow. This is a real clue in the mystery. Florence Foster Jenkins.


Ira Madison III Take that bitch. So we really did just Rebecca Ferguson to come on down and tell us who it is, girl. And by the way.


Louis Virtel Do you know what, is also the t. She is such a good actress. I love Rebecca Ferguson. Ready for way more of her. Ready for her to, like. Top line.


Ira Madison III Yes, I’m ready for a definitive Rebecca Ferguson role.


Louis Virtel Like, she definitely was the best part of The Greatest Showman. And is is wonderful in the movies do.


Ira Madison III She was the what now? Are you.


Louis Virtel Are you a Timmy defender?


Ira Madison III The Greatest Showman.


Louis Virtel Oh, you. Why do you love The Greatest Showman?


Ira Madison III Baby. Baby, we could reach for the stars. Zendaya. Zac Efron. Come on. That’s Disney excellence.


Louis Virtel Okay. Yeah. No, I’m I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m on Team Efron. I thought the Iron Claw. I’m with, like, the losers on Twitter who are like, it was snubbed.


Ira Madison III Never did I ever think you would, besmirch the musical talents of Benj Pasek. Who?


Louis Virtel You can see, on Tinder sometimes. Oh.


Ira Madison III You know, my Tinder bio is, asleep now.


Louis Virtel Oh, yeah.


Ira Madison III I keep getting emails from Tinder, or it’s like, your profile has been hidden because I don’t use it anymore. But I swipe for a composer.


Louis Virtel To be a part of the young Oscars. Cognizant. Well, what a pleasure that would be.


Ira Madison III And, you know, I’m. I’m looking to start a musical, actually. So.


Louis Virtel Is that a thing Ira standup is all about your, like, you’re trying to, like, vault from, I assume, this black box theater in the middle of nowhere to wherever you want to go?


Ira Madison III Yeah, I’m trying to vault into Vaudeville. Vaultville.


Louis Virtel I love when people say Vaudeville. Vaudeville? Like they’re from 1928.


Ira Madison III That’s how I pronounce film. Those name. All right.


Louis Virtel I’m still not clear if I’m getting that right. Villa Nuevo sounds fine to me.


Ira Madison III I really just wanted him to be Cuban. Yeah.


Louis Virtel Disney. I want to be in the show. Yeah. Okay. All right, so we’re settling with you, Grant. We’re settling with colorectal surgery. Okay.


Ira Madison III Detective Hugh grant. Okay. You sound like a Hugh Grant. I still think the rock.


Louis Virtel I would love for him to be dastardly, because that would be a fucking long ass con. He’s so, like, throwing his arms. I’d be like, who wants pizza? That’s his whole vibe, man.


Ira Madison III Hillary Clinton wouldn’t want to be in her shoes right now. He’s coming for that presidency. Right, right, right. And you know, she’s running again. Shooting by those cross trainers for nothing.


Louis Virtel By the way, I hope everybody voted in California yesterday.


Ira Madison III I do hope everyone voted in California yesterday too, because, you know, Taylor Swift. Told everyone to. You know, she wrote today, March 5th, is the presidential primary in Tennessee and 16 other states and territories. I wanted to remind you guys to vote. The people who represent you all caps into power. If you haven’t already, make a plan to vote today, whether you’re in Tennessee or somewhere else in the U.S.. Check your polling places and times at vote.org. Isn’t that a lovely, beautiful statement that will not make anyone sell 200,000 less albums? Vinegar is addictive.


Louis Virtel Right? Right, right. So I want to vote for somebody that represents me. Exclamation point. Single 2019.


Ira Madison III Okay. What if I want to vote for girl licious? That’s on you, right in ballot, right? Right. Represent me. Yeah. I’m always looking to put Robin and tap some more power. So.


Louis Virtel You’re. The 2007 was such a good time for all of us.


Ira Madison III All right, when we are back, we are joined by Truman Capote himself, Tom Hollander.


Louis Virtel <AD>


Ira Madison III Our guest this week has been charming us on screen for years in the likes of Gosford Park, Pride and Prejudice, Pirates of the Caribbean, Mission Impossible, Rogue Nation and The Night Manager. But he’s really made a splash recently with iconic performances in The White Lotus season two and now Feud: Capote versus the Swans. He’s a BAFTA winner, a Tony nominee, and now that he’s on Keep It, it’s his turn to say, these gays are trying to kill me. So please welcome to Keep It, Tom Hollander.


Tom Hollander Thanks, Ira. Thank you very much. Thrilled to be here. Thrilled. And thanks for that intro.


Louis Virtel Now, Okay. In reading about your preparation to play Truman Capote, where apparently you’re, like, wandering around a park doing the voice to yourself, listening to tapes of Truman Capote. And it seemed like a months long process to get into this character. Was it at all a joyous experience, or was it just a massive undertaking because he’s such a specific character with a specific type of voice, and I feel like there’s a precision that an actor like yourself would be obsessed with obtaining.


Tom Hollander Well, you’re right. I mean, the first question is it was not, it was a it was a joy after the end. I was nervous. I was nervous. The becoming him went from being a burdensome, scary thing. Am I doing it well enough? Will I get fired? Will I get fired? I don’t seem to have got fired. Oh, it’s. I’m relaxing. And now and then, by the end of the six months, he’s like my friend. My sort of of, you when you if you play a really wonderful, complicated part for a long time in, in its working, it does become your best mate. And so then, then your, your and also your second life, your avatar person and your alter ego, all of those things. So you were able to express bits of yourself. First of all, you start with the burden of trying to become someone else, and then if and then by the end of it, after six months, this was every day. Mostly. Then you were expressing yourself through through the character. But it makes it gives you a freedom. And then you feel that you’ve developed. Wings or something, and you’re able to do things that you couldn’t do in your own life. Just like when you have a dream and you can fly. You know that feeling that where you supersede the limits of your own reality? Actors can do that when they’re playing a part and not just on green screen. You know, when you if you’re being somebody who could, you couldn’t possibly be in real life. But you can in fiction. Is that on so long and rambling enough?


Louis Virtel No, I loved it. It was also like a poem. It was exciting to hear.


Ira Madison III I recently read you an interview magazine where you talked about working with, Gus Van Sant as a director, and you said that he made you a bit nervous at the beginning because he doesn’t say very much. But by the end of it, you loved the creative freedom he gave you. But, Gus recently did an interview as well where he discussed, sort of his directing style, sort of in comparison to intense directors like Bertolucci. And he said that I’m really afraid of going to lots of places. I’m timid about going too far or being too intense. I try to let the actors lead if it’s a hard scene, so just hearing him say that, maybe inform your experience of working with him, or does it maybe change anything about how you felt during the process?


Tom Hollander No. Well, I’m initially thrilled that it seems to, at least be consistent with, with, what I said. I mean, that’s that’s the, at least the setting, the experience I had, with him, I didn’t know. It’s interesting. That is new information, that he’s scared to go there. I mean, I don’t know why he would say he was scared to go there then. I don’t think he would be scared. I think he would feel it’s not him. That’s just not his process. So he’s. Because I mean, being a director is obviously very, very personally individual. Directing styles are, defined by the personalities of the people who are who that individual director. So. Gus is not. Gus does not control the room by being an alpha person. He he has. I saw I didn’t see someone who was scared to go there. I saw someone who had the courage to to be quiet. Had the nerve to go. I don’t have to control every last little bit of this. In fact, I’ll get the best out of people if I just give them. Let give them freedom. So there were two, you know, there were there are. Those are very different approaches. I have not worked with many of, the so-called greats. I did actually meet Bertolucci once, but not I’ve never I’ve certainly never worked with him as that. But I suppose that the famous film directors that I have worked with, one would be Gus Van Sant. So he, he, he has described he he looks at it like a painter, looks at a canvas, and he’s just watching the light falling on people’s faces and trying to work out what the narrative is in the thing that he’s looking at, and then filming it and then putting the camera in the right place. The other great that I, I, I think I worked with. You know and acknowledged. There are lots of greats who aren’t acknowledged but and acknowledged great was, Robert Altman. I was very, very in gospel and he similarly he similarly did not he wore his authority so lightly you’d think he, he, he didn’t wasn’t even taking it seriously. You’d go. You go, what are we doing in this scene? And, you know, I don’t know, I, I mean. I think we how it goes. It could be terrible. You’ll have a go. We’ll see how it. We’ll see how it is. And then he’d invite all the actors to watch the rushes in in his tent. He had a tent in them, in, in in front of their location, where at lunchtime, anyone was invited to go in and watch the rushes. So that’s, that’s a that’s a director who’s giving away his authority. He’s not jealous hiding the rushes from anyone else so that he can edit out the terrible bits before he, you know, before before anyone sees them. He’s he’s in literally inviting the whole crew and the cast to come and watch whatever they did the last few days and just and smoking marijuana while you’re doing it. So there was a it was a kind of it was Cheech and Chong levels of clouds coming out of this tent. And you’d be and inside would be the legend Robert Altman and some and Maggie Smith, you know, and I think it’s quite cool. Maybe it was.


Louis Virtel Oh my God, what a dream.


Tom Hollander To maybe I just went with. I just, I just were too hippie. That’s all we’re saying.


Louis Virtel Now, does that style work for, like, every actor I’m. First of all, I’m thinking of Gosford Park. And so much is going on in any given scene interactions behind interactions. You know, tons of characters walking in and out. It feels crazy that he could be that lax, but like, is that a directing style that works for you? If and if not, is there an ideal directing style you prefer?


Tom Hollander No, I definitely don’t have an ideal directing style. Absolutely not. Every every. No, that would be that would be crazy. Because as an actor, what you have to do is you have to be so adaptable. You have to. That’s the joy of it, is that you go into a different adventure, a different reality. Every job you do, not only the part in the story, obviously a different, but so the chemistry of the group of people. So no, you don’t want to go. I need this always. You get a few tricks. So I like to now I’m old enough to have the confidence to say, can you leave me? Can you leave me alone for three takes before you give me a note? I am able to say that because, I reckon my own imaginations got it. Got some stuff to get out of its system, and I can generally get it out in three takes. I mean, basically what I’m saying is I do a fast one and a slow one and, that’s two. And then the third one where I just sort of, see what happens. But, and then, but mostly you’re, you know, the director is a different director depending on their material every time they go to work, that is slightly different person. And to and to characterize either Gus or Robert Altman is doing nothing is, of course, naive and, and reductive because what they’re actually doing is they’re they’re watching intensely and they’re editing in their heads, and they’re thinking about the whole thing. It’s not about it’s not all about the actor and how the actors feeling it’s about, you know, where at what, where, where the camera is. So I’m and they’re also and you could say they’re exercising control by. By a form of sort of passive control by. Everyone steps up because they’re. Nobody’s saying anything. I better I bet I better do my best. I’ll do something. Everyone. Or they’re creating a level of anxiety which is quite creative. So if everyone’s feeling fabulous because they’ve been told they’re marvelous or, or they know what they think, they know what’s going on, that might make them, kind of relax in a way that’s not productive. Whereas if you say nothing and everyone’s slightly on edge, maybe something interesting will happen out of, out of anxiety, out of the need to fill the space. So it’s a it’s a complicated old thing. There’s there’s a lot of, so in a way, it’s not mind games, but it’s, it’s the difference of. It is about personalities interacting with each other, and that creates a kind of creative energy which sometimes works, sometimes doesn’t. So. But you have to it. And. Gus had a very has, very kind eyes. And, occasionally you’d see them and you’d go, oh, that’s where it is. That’s where I get my little Scooby snack of encouragement. I get it from Gus’s coupling dies. I don’t get him coming up and going. Muah, darling, that was fabulous. Which some directors do not in that voice. British directors. And they probably. They’re all dead.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Tom Hollander Darling, there was absolutely. Nobody speaks like that anymore.


Louis Virtel I missed that.


Tom Hollander Yeah, nobody does that.


Ira Madison III Well, that I have to sort of ask about the directing style of someone like Armando Iannucci, then, working on In the Loop. Oh, yeah. Which which I love. And I rewatched it recently, and I have to imagine that type of film, you know, with that rapid fire comedy and, everything that just sort of has to go from scene to scene that that directing style might be a little bit different.


Tom Hollander Yes, yes. And that’s very interesting. And Armando is, in his own way, a complete genius. It’s a different sort of thing. He’s not a I would not describe him, though I’m sure he could become one. But thus far his filmmaking has not so much been about, it’s not been the painterly, sort of sensual thing that Gus can do, or his is about the words, isn’t it? It’s about wit. Certainly. In In the loop. In the loop was there was no fancy film lighting, and in the loop it was sort of strip lighting was more lighting, in these horrible rooms that politicians spend their lives in, or they certainly do in that, in that environment. Tacky, you know, tacky, tacky, walls which, which wobble when you push against them. That was about the wit and about the satire and constantly riffing on new ideas. So he had a similar sort of there was a certain devil may care thing with his. With his material because he would constantly add to it. So you, you do the script. His. What was unique about that process for me was that you would do the script, you would do the scripted version, and then you get that in the can, and then they would abandon the scripted version, and then you would play the scene again. The actors would be encouraged to play the scene again without using any of the scripted lines. Say anything they want, but just but just stay in the plot of the scene. So did describe the scene in your own way, as it were. Get the plot beats in as best you can, but say your own words in the hope that somebody would say something funny and good, you know, which occasionally they did. And even if they didn’t, they would be a minute or a second that second millisecond in it, which was completely spontaneous and unprepared and so completely compelling. And what that meant was that our Mando, that process, gave them the motherfucker of an edit. That was that was the thing with that one. They went on for months and months and months finding that little bit, a little bit, the little bit. And also they had two cameras running around who were moving around all the time. You were never hitting marks. There were two guys with cameras on their shoulders, which I think they then used in Veep and possibly, even in succession. I’m not sure, but they would occasionally, you know, they’d be moving around the camera. People were were like, are there other actors in the on the set? So they would have to not film each other. They would trump. They were trying to get the action and also keep out of each other’s shot, because they’d be shooting across each other at the same time. So you can imagine the edit was kind of there was a lot of stuff they couldn’t use and a lot of stuff that was amazing. And then they had this template each time of the actual scripted scene, which we had got in the can at some stage. And on top of that, there was a team of writers sitting on the set every day, chucking in even funnier lines, which they thought of, you know, that minute and when one is doing that and then you get one, just say that on that line, just say that. So it was kind of free. That was very free, in a way. And took all of this stuff. Takes great nerve, doesn’t it? You can, you can. I’m listening to what I’m telling you and thinking, wow, that’s kind of there’s, there’s some balls of steel in there, to just let it go like that in the in and in the faith that you’re going to get something good, but. And then months and months and months of snipping it around in the, in the edit.


Louis Virtel Even just counting, first of all, Gosford Park and then also Pride and Prejudice and of course now also, Feud. You have just been surrounded by these unbelievable actress performances, and I was wonder if you had a favorite one to witness on set.


Tom Hollander Well, Olivia Colman in I used to do a sitcom, called ref in in the UK and Olivia, we were we played opposite each other and she was my wife, and there was one speech that she did. This was before Olivia had become, as famous as she is now. So she was she was she was becoming, Olivia Colman. And we were lucky enough to get her in this show just before she sort of went pop, but she she did, she did, she did it. She had one speech, which was, when when she had to describe, sexual fantasies. And someone had written a pretty good sexual fantasy sort of list of sexual fantasies, of the desert of middle aged housewife might have none of which were going to be fulfilled. Which then led to a comic episode in which. And bear in mind, this was a priest and his wife in which they tried to enact their sexual fantasies. And, all of you know, it was very it was actually quite funny. But she delivered this speech so brilliantly, so quickly, so brilliantly, with so little, so apparently effortlessly, with so much nuance and flavor in it. But but all thrown away, apparently thrown away. No effort, no sweat. It was just astonishing. And I thought, and I, I sweated because I realized that I was acting with someone who was really, really brilliant and quite possibly better than I was. And that was so. And so then I was thinking, wow, that’s good. I couldn’t do that. And I think you go, but I actually think all the best actors. Probably women. Certainly the ones I’ve met. And then the ones where you go, wow, that’s that’s just otherworldly level of emotional expression. Icon with the guys and was kind of going, yeah, I can see what you’re doing. It’s so with the with, with the ladies, you’re going, wow. To do something to do with, I don’t know what’s been the most emotionally eloquent stuff, the most emotionally complex and sensitive nuance stuff I’ve seen with, the female actors that I’ve. I’ve been lucky enough to work with. Jennifer Coolidge obviously got to be up there because what she’s doing is is amazing. And standing next to that was amazing. And there’s a whole bunch of them. Yeah. I mean. What was Kristin Scott Thomas doing in Gosford Park?


Louis Virtel Oh, she was amazing in that movie. Oh, she’s so. She looks so fabulous, too.


Tom Hollander When she says she’s. There’s a couple of scenes where she’s looking out of the out of the front, saying goodbye. At the very end, she says goodbye to people, and, it’s almost wordless. And the last car drives away and you see her just sort of bottling her feelings and stepping back inside. It’s amazing. It’s amazing. So, I mean, I there’s probably some more that you’ve got in mind that I now can’t think of, but that, that there I’ve been and obviously interviewed for. Are we allowed to say the F-word on the?


Louis Virtel You can.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Tom Hollander Feud, for fuck’s sake. It was. Look at them.


Ira Madison III Yeah.


Tom Hollander You know, I mean, we’re going through we’re going through decades of, have kind of film icon status from Jessica Lange, you know? And then we’re going Jessica Lange, Demi Moore, Molly Ringwald. I mean, you know, they know that we’re going through the The Brat Pack. Then we’re going into the 90s New York cooler with Chloe Sevigny and Naomi Watts, and then and then we’re. And, whoever missed out, Diane Lane, for goodness sake, who was on the cover of time magazine when she was 12 years old? These people. oh. All magnificent in their own right. Now, was I acting in all of them? Calista Flockhart, who’s one of the cleverest, which is the most mysterious people I’ve ever met. And finally. There’s an actor in Enfield I called Alec Elevator. Who’s who was making. It was her first job. And when she did her first scene. So her first job out of out of Juilliard, she did her first scene all nervous, all kind of kind of elbows and thumbs off on the set. And then on screen, she just. She was you. I looked around the monitor and thought, oh, wow, that’s amazing. Look at her. She knows. She just knows all these things already that I didn’t understand about cameras and how to be in front of a camera. She seems to know them instinctively. To me that, well, I still don’t know them. I don’t know how to do it. And I ask you what she was doing. And I look around and Gus Van Sant was was there was a tear on Gus Van Sant’s cheek. She was so good straight away. It was like, sing. Anyway. So there was there was several generations. And the new generation seemed to be in that show.


Louis Virtel Yeah, Warren and in that are a good parents to have. I feel like if you’re interested in acting, you know what I’m saying?


Tom Hollander I was trying to get that without referencing her parents because that just reduces. That’s.


Louis Virtel True.


Tom Hollander It doesn’t just of course, she had once she’s Warren Beatty and Annette Bening child. But, you know, that’s no guarantee of someone being good. I mean, what if she’s actually better than her parents? You know, I that’s what I was wondering as I looked at her, I thought, well, she might be better, you know what. I mean? This is this is it’s like it doesn’t always happen. Lightning doesn’t always strike in the same gene pool. And, you know, being, I mean, of course, that, you know, some sort of there’s a nepo baby joke to be made, but she, she she she has every she’s she’s born to be born to be doing what she’s doing.


Ira Madison III We’re very pro nepo babies over here. I mean, Jane Fonda is the greatest one.


Louis Virtel Yeah. Anjelica Houston, please. We can go on.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Thank you so much for being here with us, Tom. And honestly, your portrayal of Truman is so fun and fascinating to watch. It’s been fun watching people. I’ve been reading like Reddit and YouTube comments of even scenes. And it’s it’s been interesting seeing people comment just about Truman Capote as a person saying things like, I’ve always hated that man. I think he’s disgusting. But, this is a really great portrayal of him, and it’s humanizing him for me. I didn’t know people had that many thoughts about Truman Capote in the modern day era, people who would comment on YouTube. So you’re bringing that out of people. So thank you.


Tom Hollander That I don’t I’m I am just part of a team. I’m lucky that I was the lucky guy they got to to play Truman Capote. But it’s fascinating that the show has made him brought him back as a as a figure. I didn’t really understand how important he was in, in that sort of as a cultural figure in late 20th century American popular. I didn’t really understand that until we did it. And and I think Ryan and Gus and Robbie base, they they all did understand that, obviously they did. And they, and somehow he, they brought him back for people and, God bless him, because I think he had a really, really pretty miserable time a lot of the time.


Louis Virtel Thank you, Tom.


Ira Madison III Thank you. Yeah. It’s been a pleasure.


Tom Hollander Good to meet you. Thanks for having me on, bye.


Speaker 2 <AD>


Ira Madison III Okay, so you’ve just listened to our conversation with Tom Hollander, who portrays Truman Capote in the Feud: Capote versus the Swans, the latest season of Feud aka White Women acting for Ryan Murphy. This, of course, has been written by John Robin Bates and directed largely by Gus Van Sant. A couple of episodes are not. You know, one of them was directed by David Lynch, his daughter.


Louis Virtel Get Out. Which is interesting because there’s another negative situation in the show, right? It’s Warren Beatty and Annette Bening. His daughter, Ella Beatty is, which sounds like a like a pun or a Carmen Sandiego villain or something. And, later in the show.


Ira Madison III Speaking of Jennifer Lynch, have you ever seen Boxing Helena?


Louis Virtel Not close to the time it came out. Which is to say, I mean, like, it’s a 90s movie. I probably saw it in like 2001 or something.


Ira Madison III Maybe they dragged the hell out of that movie. Yeah, yeah. Her her directorial dreams were squashed.


Louis Virtel Yeah. They’re like, that’s enough.


Ira Madison III With. And actually them. What do you think about that film? It’s very proto The Skin I Live In.


Louis Virtel Right, right. Right, right. No. Yeah, I would say it’s ahead of its time. And also definitively 90s. Just the scale of the movie, the grossness of the movie. Anyway, here’s my question about Truman Capote. In the era of Truman Capote, would you have been friends with Truman Capote, and what capacity would you mix it up with him? And I asked this question because once upon a time, I probably had no opinion on how gay celebrities live their lives. Now, the most suspicious thing about a gay celebrity is if we have no mutual friends, like I’m out in the world participating in it, being gay, there’s only like six gay places you can go on any given night in any given city. It’s inevitable that you’re going to run into most people. If you don’t have any mutual friends in common with me, what are you doing with your life? You can’t just be working on, quote unquote, your art.


Ira Madison III That’s fair. Well I think that I probably would be on friendly terms with him. I don’t know if we’d be best friends. I don’t even know if we’d be hanging out. He seemed more. You seem more interested in hanging out with the swans. To be honest.


Louis Virtel It is definitely a specific personality type among gay men who like their whole thing is tons and tons of female friends. You know, which I mean, like, you know who comes to mind immediately? Our mutual friend Sam Lansky, who I guess worked on RuPaul’s new memoir, too, and, ghost wrote Britney Spears memoir. Time magazine.


Ira Madison III He loves the sisters.


Louis Virtel Yes, yes.


Ira Madison III That’s exactly. Yeah.


Louis Virtel And also particularly interested seemingly in, like, you know. Name personalities.


Ira Madison III Yes. If I’m talking about this current time and imagining, you know, my life now and Truman Capote being in New York. I would have interacted with him. I would not be at the black and white ball for sure. Right.


Louis Virtel Well you’re not. You’re not Candy Bergin. That’s just the truth of.


Ira Madison III If you ever looked at just like the list of the people who were at the black and white ball.


Louis Virtel Oh, no. Please hit me with it.


Ira Madison III The partial guest list. Here’s a few of the people. Lauren Bacall, of course. Tallulah bankhead.


Louis Virtel That is actually fucking crazy, because you would have thought, you know, lung cancer would have kicked her ass by that point.


Ira Madison III But now.


Louis Virtel Nobody smokes like.


Ira Madison III Her. Marissa berenson.


Louis Virtel She’s in Cabaret. Her sister, Barry Berenson, was married to Anthony Perkins.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Also, her grandmother was Elsa Schiaparelli.


Louis Virtel Correct? Yes. The founder of the color shocking pink and just fashion god. Yes.


Ira Madison III Candice Bergen, of course, as we said. By the way, that bitch was 20 right that time.


Louis Virtel And of course, she was famous because she was a bit of a model. And her dad is Edgar Bergen, the ventriloquist. But, she was just beginning her movie career around then. She’s in a movie called the Group, which is based off the Mary McCarthy novel about a bunch of women at Vassar, where she is simply stunning.


Ira Madison III They hate Oleanna.


Louis Virtel No. Oh, my God. I hate when we bring up Oleanna. It’s the worst. And it should ever go on.


Ira Madison III Okay. Richard Brooks. Okay. Johnny Carson and his wife Joanne.


Louis Virtel That character, now, that’s a character on feud played by Molly Ringwald.


Ira Madison III Mia Farrow.


Louis Virtel By the way, what’s she up to recently?


Ira Madison III Still googling black daughter. Yeah.


Louis Virtel Tweeting at people and stuff.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Henry Fonda. Joe and Fontaine.


Louis Virtel Now that’s Joan Fontaine. I mean, that sounds like an old world celebrity, but she lived till about 2011 or something, so she was only just beginning.


Ira Madison III Speaking of Henry Fonda, this is weird, soapy, you know, actor sleeping with actor connections. You know, his first wife, Margaret Sullivan? Who he did not have kids with, after being married to Henry. Two husbands. Later, she was married to Leland Hayward, who divorced Slim Hayward. One of Capote’s swans. So what you need to know is that at the Black and White Ball, there are all these people mixing sort of with their exes or exes of their exes.


Louis Virtel Margaret Sullivan died at the age of 50 of a questionable overdose, but she is an Oscar nominee. She was in a movie called Three Comrades, in which she is fabulous, one of the first sort of deadpan, actress nominations. And she’s also in the classic Shop Around the Corner. If you haven’t seen that, you must see the shop around the corner.


Ira Madison III Arlene Francis.


Louis Virtel Oh my God, one of my favorite celebrities of all time. What’s my line panelist. I always say that she’s the secret inspiration for Carol in the movie Carol, because that performance reminds me of her. I I’m I’m fully, tin hatted it in this way.


Ira Madison III See, Irving. Paul Lazar, he was a talent agent. Joshua Logan.


Louis Virtel He was a director, and he directed Jane Fonda and Anthony Perkins together in a movie called Tall Story, which was her debut in 1959 or into to into 1960. And she claims that the set was fraught because she had a crush on Anthony Perkins, and so did he. And he’s never been confirmed as gay. And so Jane’s just out here spilling tea.


Ira Madison III Well, he co-wrote South Pacific, so.


Louis Virtel Keep It fagots.


Ira Madison III Wow.


Louis Virtel He wants to watch that man right into his hair. You know what I’m saying?


Ira Madison III Joe Mankiewicz.


Louis Virtel There’s, like, 50 of them.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Vincent minnelli.


Louis Virtel I think still to date, the only person who the only trio of people where it’s husband, wife and daughter all have an Oscar. I think that’s the only configuration where that’s true. I’m just spouting facts now. Phyllis Newman was also a What’s My Line panelist specifically after Dorothy Kilgallen passed away. That’s a very fascinating story. But what you need to know about Phyllis Newman, and she’s the reason Barbara Streisand doesn’t have a competitive Tony because she beat her in I Can Get It for You Wholesale, which is sort of one of the definitive supporting turns ever on Broadway, the one Barbara probably should have won for. She didn’t win for Funny Girl because she lost it to Carol Channing. But Phyllis Newman is the reason, she lost.


Ira Madison III We also had Harold Prince.


Louis Virtel Broadway’s on.


Ira Madison III And, Mr. Zanuck himself.


Louis Virtel Come on. Movie dumb.


Ira Madison III Yeah. Yeah. Also, Sammy Davis Jr, was there, a black person. And Ralph Ellison.


Louis Virtel Oh, that. No. See, that’s a get Ralph Ellison because he was like, he did his one work. And then he’s like, well, that’s the end of March.


Ira Madison III Yeah. What do you look down under the writers and artists section? You’ve basically got Lillian Hellman, Christopher Isherwood, Norman Mailer, Arthur Miller, Oscar de la Renta, Jerome Robbins, Frank Sinatra, Stephen Sondheim was there, John Steinbeck was there.


Louis Virtel I’m going to say quickly about Lillian Hellman, one of the great liars of all time. She first of all, was in a long time feud with Mary McCarthy, who I just brought up, who wrote that, the group with that became a movie with Candice Bergen. But Lillian Hellman is the source of inspiration for the movie Julia in the late 70s that Jane Fonda was the star of. She was nominated for an Oscar for it. And the entire story of how she was friends with this woman who in the movie is played by Vanessa Redgrave, and she goes off to war. But they had this long, this lifelong friendship is totally debunked. Lillian Hellman lied about this story, and it was proven again and again. It’s like like, you know, this Flamin Hot movie about Doritos that turned out to be not true. It’s one of these few movies in Oscar history that is supposed to be compelling real life drama. And it is totally fabricated.


Ira Madison III Okay, I need to watch that.


Louis Virtel Yeah.


Ira Madison III One. Two. That is also probably why I say that I would at least know of, Truman Capote, because he was a writer. And looking at this list of people at the Black and White Ball, it is just fun thinking of that era where the most fabulous party that everyone wanted to get into in New York was thrown by a writer. Yeah, there were other writers there. And you were famous for writing you back then.


Louis Virtel Right, right, right. And you had some enigma about you because, you know, maybe you got to appear on something like Dick Cavett or something. But for the most part, writers had a sort of sequestered glamor about them, whereas now we just think of them as desperate people waiting for a gig.


Ira Madison III Right? I forget the exact quote, but when I was looking at things about Truman Capote, hum believe someone had told him that he should be a bit more like Joyce and that he, you know, sullen and sort of not. Seen. And the critique was, if you supposed to be writing like, why are you around hanging with celebrities all the time or on vacations all the time? It’s you should be the whole life of a writer that was very mysterious. Like you would just sort of appear. When you had your book right, that was released and you were promoting it, and maybe you’d be at a few parties, but otherwise you were largely absent because you were off writing. And that, I feel, has sort of changed so much in terms of. Even a lot of people who are very successful writers now, you sort of just have to do more to keep your name out there. Yeah.


Louis Virtel Constant visibility as a part of it. Yeah, right. It just is the way things are. I would say the writers I’m most interested in are both compulsively introverted and compulsively extroverted. There are just two distinct hemispheres of their personality that they indulge, and that usually means we see a lot of them on social media.


Ira Madison III Yeah. The last thing I want to say about Truman Capote, though, there’s an episode where he hangs out with James Baldwin. Oh, right. You want to talk about Julia and complete fabrication?


Louis Virtel Oh, completely. Yes. It’s fully, Mary, Queen of Scots, that movie with Cersei. And where she and Elizabeth the second, mixed it up in, like a laundry tunnel where they like to do a little paso doble and intimidate each other. It’s fucking crazy.


Ira Madison III Truman Capote, he did not even like James Baldwin’s writing, by the way. He thought his fiction was boring. He said this in a letter, in one of the. There’s a collection of Capote, his letters, and he trashes, Baldwin’s writing as boring, which. Oh, well, and, the idea also that James Baldwin, who would have been living in Paris at the time because he hated the racism, white America. Would hop back to New York because the rich white women of New York City do not want to play with Truman Capote anymore, right? He’s got to come to  I’m taking you to lunch, Truman. We need to get you out of the house.


Louis Virtel It is a bit silly. It’s a bit silly.


Ira Madison III It’s given the help, right?


Louis Virtel I mean, it’s like. Well, also, that’s sort of in keeping with the other season of feud about, Bette Davis and, Joan Crawford, where clearly some of it was fabricated to make the series a series, really, to make it long enough to sustain. Yeah.


Ira Madison III But I would be really interested in a Capote- Baldwin. Series or play or something about them and their actual, you know, diametric. Yeah, viewpoints.


Louis Virtel That’d be cute. That’d be clear. Probably going to happen. Honestly.


Ira Madison III Also what I think about that when what they when they go to the museum. And Capote is like, why didn’t we ever day we were circling each other and I’m like, Baby Jesus mother was not swiping right. Are you okay?


Louis Virtel First of all, it’s actually. What do you mean, you you.


Ira Madison III Could have had something. Which isn’t to say that Capote wasn’t a cute girl, you know? And it’s not like James Bond was a model, but he was pulling Marlon Brando. Okay. Right? Right, right.


Louis Virtel Yeah. How long until Jesse Plemons wins an Oscar for playing Truman Capote? You know, that’s going down.


Ira Madison III Yeah, he’s got that, you know. That cornfed look. That Capote has.


Louis Virtel And we’re waiting for him to do the character actor thing and win that Oscar. It just it’s all written in the stars. Anyway. We have to move on.


Ira Madison III Yeah. All right, when we’re back, Keep It. And we’re back with our favorite segment of the episode. It is Keep It. Louis.


Louis Virtel Yes.


Ira Madison III What are you keeping this week?


Louis Virtel Okay, so I haven’t read this memoir yet. It’s brand new, but RuPaul has a memoir out this week, and I’m seeing some. Apparently, the New York Times just wrote a very critical essay about it. But I will say this about RuPaul, who apparently hates doing interviews and says that at the beginning of this interview he does with Ronan Farrow in The New Yorker. But, I love RuPaul interviews. To me, he does this thing that I think is so fascinating. You can never tell when you’re going to get very realistic, rational, pragmatic, like advice from RuPaul or when he’s going to swerve into full. Marianne Williamson. Angels are real. People are soul themes territory I love. You never know what you’re going to get. And, I just find it generally entertaining as, of course, he is on the show. However, he also was commenting on Madonna, who of course is on tour right now. I’ll be seeing her next week before the Oscars. She’s a singer. And he said, in aging, there is a natural flow. And when you’re against the flow, it doesn’t look right. It doesn’t feel right. The energy around the Madonna thing, it feels weird, right? Ru. And then he says, referring to her chasing arena tours and grills and her teeth. He adds, I’m not interested in appealing to 11 to 25 year olds. I’m just not. I can’t on a bigger level as a mother, as Mama Ru. It’s a different relationship. I’m not trying to be them. It’s always interesting when people revert to this line of criticism from Madonna, because I don’t think she wants to be 11 or 25. I feel like she is constantly defining what it means to be, an explosive, dance oriented, pop oriented star at her age. And I think that just means keeping doing what she’s been doing. And also when people say she’s trying to appeal to a younger audience, are you sure she’s not just appealing to her extremely longtime and committed fans? I just don’t feel like she’s somebody who needs to add more people. Something that worries me is I just feel like after a certain time, like a lot of gay guys get to a point where conventional sexism ends up sounding like radical honesty to them, and I’m just disappointed to hear it from him. Especially since if you watch RuPaul’s Drag Race, no one is more reverent, generally speaking, to Madonna than RuPaul, and then RuPaul and also Michelle Visage. They had rusical about Madonna. They’ve had, drag runways where everybody comes in dressed as Madonna. We had that one time where four different people wore the kimono from the Nothing Really Matters video. So I’m just somewhat disappointed by that quote.


Ira Madison III Now you think long time Madonna fans know what Fortnite is.


Louis Virtel No, I’m right here. No, I have no idea.


Ira Madison III Where the popular music video debuted.


Louis Virtel Oh, yes. But like, everybody does that shit now, right. And Lady Gaga do something like that. Yeah, yeah.


Ira Madison III Yeah. She did a concert in that city. I think I think that’s enough. I think Fortnite is another, place from Macbeth.


Louis Virtel Right? No, I certainly will never find out what it is. I’ve already forgotten that you said it.


Ira Madison III I mean, listen, I know what it’s like when people shake the Virtels nest, you know? And bring up your girl.


Louis Virtel Right.


Ira Madison III Does she even still wear the grill?


Louis Virtel It’s hard to tell like this, by the way, this is the thing. People who’ve known who Madonna is for years and years and years. These are the people who should have the awesome criticisms of her. In fact, that’s the whole kind of fun of being a Madonna fan is you get to be continuously critical of her. I hate how garbled her voice sounds. I mean, like when she speaks, you know, it doesn’t remind me of her when I’m listening to an interview or something like that. If that is a grill situation, I mean, that’s what’s bothersome about it. But, and also the grill era has been, I think, at least a decade now, which nobody predicted.


Ira Madison III Yeah. I hate that she brought life and death out on the stage. Okay. Oh, yeah.


Louis Virtel You mean Amy Schumer?


Ira Madison III Yes. Yeah. I don’t say their name. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Say it too many times.


Right. You get a $30 million Netflix special. Ira, what is your Keep It for this week?


Ira Madison III My Keep It this week. Goes to nerds, male nerds online who are pretending that Zendaya is not one of our great young acting talents. What do they say? Because they don’t. They don’t like her in Dune. Because they hate women in their sci fi movies. Truly. After Dune was released, there was an onslaught, people questioning whether Zendaya is actually a good actress. And you know what? I’m just going to adjust my bang here. Put on my glasses and read a little Zendaya K.C. Undercover, Zendaya shake it up, Zendaya, Emmy winning for Euphoria. Zendaya.


Louis Virtel Twice.


Ira Madison III Twice. Malcolm Marie which we do not discuss. Zendaya.


Louis Virtel Surprised you even brought it up? Yes.


Ira Madison III It is. We cannot be living in a world where you are pretending that Zendaya cannot act. And you know what? Maybe it’s good because she’s been going, you know, sort of rapidly for a long time without any sort of backlash. Was it not like you want that as an actor, but, you know, it’s nice for people to act silly about you for a minute just so other people can defend you. Precisely. And then we can move on from the conversation, you know? But I think it’s just it’s just nonsense to pretend that Zendaya cannot act.


Louis Virtel No, I mean, we were basically waiting for years for, like, the right thing to click into place so that this mega talent just had a place to exist. If anything, the craziest thing about Zendaya is that she lost Dancing With the Stars. That that was one time a first of all, the universe she was in and two didn’t like, you know, Nicole Scherzinger the fuck out of that competition.


Ira Madison III If anything I’m waiting to see what else she can do. I like I’m looking forward to challengers, which looks like it’s going to be a really good physical role for her. I don’t think we’ve seen much physical acting from Zendaya. And in terms of Dune, I mean, listen, when you’re in a Disney film like we were discussing last week, he doesn’t really care about actors.


Louis Virtel No, he doesn’t like the dialog, darling. He wants to take the big cloudy sky. He’s like, is the apocalypse coming? Let’s film that.


Ira Madison III He has that bucket from Adobe Photoshop. Okay, just going around clipping in his scenes and the actors are, oh, you’re there. You know, it’s a it’s very Hitchcock. The, the actor doesn’t exist without the light.


Louis Virtel Right, right, right. They’re cattle to him.


Ira Madison III Yes, as Hitchcock used to say. But honestly, I’m still waiting for a moment for her to show these bitches even more. You know, I don’t think we’ve really, aside from Euphoria, had even the definitive, definitive Zendaya role.


Louis Virtel Also, by the way, I actually have another single from her because Replay is one of the top 2010s tracks. I love that song.


Ira Madison III I remember I asked her once about music and I said, girl, when are we going to get more music? She was like, not you too.


Louis Virtel Hilarity from Sunday. All right.


Ira Madison III When she used to be on Twitter more. I know her fans used to tweet at her. When’s the album coming? When’s an album coming? And this was maybe like early Euphoria days, when it still seemed like she was and around Greatest Showman to where it still seemed like releasing an album and being a pop star was a thing that was on this girl’s mind, right? Right, right. You know, in fact, I would be I would be shocked if she released another album ever, you know? But never say never. She’s a very young celebrity. You know, many female celebrities, years into their career who’ve never made music before, decide to drop albums.


Louis Virtel There’s a new Kate Hudson single out this week. And yet it’s an old Kathie Lee Gifford album. I don’t know how she did that.


Ira Madison III Anyway, I’ve talked about Zendaya, so, thank you to our guest, Tom Hollander, for joining us. And we will see you next week on Keep It. Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.


Louis Virtel Keep It is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Chris Lord. Our executive producers are Ira Madison, the third, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James. Our digital team is Megan Patsel, Claudia Shang, and Rachel Gaeski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Thank you to Matt DeGroot, David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.