Keir Starmer gave his first Labour Conference speech as Prime Minister this week – but his message of “national renewal” was slightly spoiled by a backdrop of poor polling, infighting and their never ending “garm drama”. Journalist Zoë Grünewald joins Nish and Coco on the couch to search for the “light at the end of the tunnel” promised by the new government.

 

Later, Simon Kuper, Financial Times journalist and author of Good Chaps: How corrupt politicians broke our law and institutions – and what we can do about it, joins the show to  delve into the government’s first scandal-not-scandal. They discuss how donations have infected our politics and why there’s no such thing as a free box at the Arsenal game.

 

Guests:

Simon Kuper https://x.com/KuperSimon
Zoë Grünewald

 

Audio Credits:

ITV News

 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Coco Khan As Labour conference comes to a close, Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves have declared war on tax dodges and Covid corruption.

 

Nish Kumar But don’t worry, there’s promises of sunshine and rainbows ahead. I’m Nish Kumar.

 

Coco Khan And I’m Coco Khan and this is Pod Save the UK.

 

Nish Kumar We’ve got a stacked show for you today. Later, we’re taking a second look at Star Wars game drama and finding out how money infected our politics with a very special guest. But first, we’re joined by the wonderful Zoë Grünewald to get you up to speed on what happened at this week’s Labour Party conference. Hello, Zoe.

 

Zoë Grünewald Hello.

 

Nish Kumar Fresh from conference?

 

Zoë Grünewald Not so freshman conference.

 

Nish Kumar I’m fresh from conference.

 

Zoë Grünewald I’m okay from conference. Yeah, a bit tired from conference.

 

Nish Kumar How was it?

 

Zoë Grünewald How was it? It was corporate. I think there is a perception that Labour Party conference is one of the more fun conferences.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah.

 

Zoë Grünewald And this year felt so actually overrun with businesspeople, in my opinion. I mean, it was very crowded. All the fringe events were standing room only. There were lots of, you know, men in suits patrol. It was China, an unusual for political conference, but it felt particularly busy this year, I’d say, and perhaps not as kind of grassroots, lively young as Labour Party conference might have once have been.

 

Coco Khan Well, let’s get into it. Here’s a clip of the prime Minister addressing that very Labour Party conference.

 

Clip More money in their pocket to do the things they love, more faith in their public services because once again, Labour rebuilt the NHS. Facing the future, more security and dignity at work, town centers, thriving streets, safe borders controls it. Law Clean energy Harness for National Review. New homes. New town. New hospital roads and schools. A new future for our children. That is what people will get a vote, My words. We will deliver it.

 

Nish Kumar So it was promising everything but the kitchen sink there, which is at least a nice change from you, will all have to consume each other’s flesh as things get steadily worse in this country, which is sort of in the previous line. What did you make of it, though? Was the tone of the conference in general in line with Thomas speech a little bit more hopeful?

 

Zoë Grünewald I would say they were definitely making a concerted effort to be more hopeful, a bit more jolly, a bit less gloomy. You know, I wasn’t quite sure about the slogan Change begins because, as you say, that speech in the Rose Garden where it was like, things are going to get praised. Yeah, Yeah. It’s like change.

 

Nish Kumar Is not always positive.

 

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, it is. That’s beginning right now. It’s like. Well, terrible things. But, I mean, you could really tell they were trying to make an effort to inject a little bit of that sort of 1997 hopeful, you know, vibe to to conference. And that was really shine, I think, in Rachel Reeves the speech where she had this big kind of smile plastered on her face, which I actually found at moments, looked a bit creepy. But I think with Thomas speech, it started off a little bit slow, a little bit desperate. You know, he struggles to tell a story. I think it sometimes feels like he’s kind of moving all over the place. But as he went on, he warmed up. And there were moments where I think he spoke with quite a lot of passion.

 

Coco Khan So do you think that because obviously starmer’s his opinion ratings are quite low? I think there is still a problem where people don’t understand what he stands for. I was hearing a conversation about him the other day and people talking about how like even with Blair, you know, his line was he’s a modern man for a modern Britain and almost his like, youth in like adopting technology that was part of the brand. And people still don’t fully know what the brand stoma is. Do you think this corrected it a bit?

 

Zoë Grünewald Not really. I think he is. Practical, pragmatic and sort of like a boring public service. It’s pretty dull, but that’s kind of part of his appeal. The problem is when you are trying to keep the country with you for a decade, that’s what they want, a decade of national renewal. You do have to tell a bit of a story and you do have to inspire them and excite them. And I think Labour’s depending a lot on delivery. They just want to be able to say in five years time when the public go back to vote. Look, all these things we’ve achieved. That’s great. But is that enough? You know, you look at the US, look at Biden. Biden actually delivered quite a lot, but he’s still, you know, still in trouble. So it’s not just delivery. It’s also a time where, you know, that the country doesn’t trust politicians and is quite divided on certain issues. I think you need to offer a little bit more than just look, there are, you know, cranes in the sky and planning reform. And, you know, it has to be a little bit more, I think, for the average person to feel that their changes are materially different.

 

Coco Khan So let’s have a think about some of those issues then. Star had lots to say on migration. He said that net immigration is too high and claim that taking back control the old Brexiteer slogan is actually a Labour argument. So what is he trying to achieve here, Zoe?

 

Zoë Grünewald It was almost as if he was trying to reframe the immigration debate as a kind of left wing argument against free markets. So, you know, he made this argument that net migration is too high and that, you know, he was saying it’s a legitimate thing for people to to think. And it was funny he kind of pointed to. So Boris Johnson years and the sort of last five years of Tory governance where net migration figures really went up because they relaxed rules on visas. And he was basically suggesting that the Tories let the market define policy and politics. And actually it’s more sort of left wing, it’s more statist to have a government that wants to kind of control its borders. I think what was good was that he made the case for asylum. You know, he said if you want tighter laws on immigration, you have to accept that there are going to be people here who who have legitimate claims to asylum and should have those accepted. And I think that almost made me wonder if, you know, we could see something like safe and legal routes coming eventually, because it was actually a fairly assertive case for asylum where, you know, that should the party had been quite scared to even talk about that before. But I think what would have been nice if he had made a stronger case for the benefits of immigration that we’ve seen, you know, how it has enriched the country culturally, how it’s enriched the country economically.

 

Nish Kumar I was pretty disgusted by what he said, particularly about what he said in conjunction with the riots.

 

Clip I will never accept the argument made not just by the usual suspects, but by people who should have known better. Who said that millions of people concerned about immigration. Are one aren’t the same thing. As the people who smashed up businesses, who targeted mosques, attempted to burn refugees, scrawled racist graffiti over walls, Nazi salutes at the Cenotaph.

 

Nish Kumar As a person of color who lives in this country, was born in this country and who has had their relationship with this country. Very strongly tested by the events of the last decade, and especially, to be honest, by the events of the last couple of months. I feel he’s missed a moment of national leadership as the Prime minister and particularly as a Labour prime minister. I think the attempt to smash the link between what happened this summer and the ongoing ratcheting up of rhetoric against migrants, refugees and immigrant communities in this country was a. A missed opportunity that I think. He has not fully calculated the political fallout of that, and it is a fallout that will affect ordinary people of Color Street. Because if you don’t make the link between the ratcheting up of hostility and what happened in the summer, it is effectively an act of gaslighting by white politician to minority communities in this country. I was personally, profoundly disgusted by those remarks. And, you know, again, we can talk about bits of the speech that I thought certainly pointed towards a more humane and frankly, pragmatic asylum policy. But that specific section, it made me personally very, very angry and upset.

 

Zoë Grünewald It’s almost like he was trying to placate, you know, various you end up it’s.

 

Nish Kumar Very fine people on both sides. It’s on the continuum of very fine people on both sides.

 

Zoë Grünewald And it undermines, you know, those that sort of moment of, you know, actually making the case for asylum, you know, that is hidden in all these other statements. And when you focus a lot of your speech on immigration and how it needs to come down, arguably you are giving credence to the argument that there is something wrong with immigration and therefore immigrants.

 

Nish Kumar You absolutely at the core of it saying these people had a point. And you’re saying that, you know, if you’re saying that these people smashed up businesses and targeted most, that there isn’t a relationship between them ratcheting up, you fucking lying to me, you literally looking me in the face and telling me that two plus two is five.

 

Coco Khan I had this little moment the other day where I was thinking, Wow, over the summer, loads of us were scared to leave our houses. Yeah. And now we’re just expected to just forget about it. And this is weird. Is this I think gaslighting is really choice word used there. Yeah, I hear it.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah. I mean, it’s worth giving you listen to last week’s episode with Zoe Gardner. We talked a bit about Selma cozying up to George Maloney and seeing what direction this this immigration policy is going to take and how it’s going to be shaped. And one of the other things Stone was keen to emphasize was a crackdown on benefit fraud.

 

Coco Khan From one thing that disgusts you to another. This was my personal like.

 

Nish Kumar I’m going to be quiet for a little bit.

 

Coco Khan So one of the things Starmer was keen to emphasize was a crackdown on benefits, fraud, and that was his language, prompting critics within the party to say it was almost like George Osborne speaking again. I have to say this was my area of feeling like absolute disgust. I couldn’t believe it. I just can’t believe that we’re having any conversation around benefits. That isn’t about the fact that the sums are so paltry that the people who claim them, who many of them are in-work and also unwell, are forced to choose between heating and eating, which I think should be what we talk about when we talk about benefits. But here we are again talking about fraud, which is a tiny, tiny problem compared to loads of other issues with the the benefit sector. So anyway, so what’s Starmer’s play here, Zoe?

 

Zoë Grünewald So I think some of this again is signaling to the right. So, you know, this argument that part of the thing with Keir Starmer is I feel like you can almost kind of understand why Labour might have felt that it needed to shift rightward slightly to get elected. And I think a lot of people kind of gave the party maybe a little bit of lenience because they understand that there was a group of voters they wanted to grab who were disenchanted Tory voters. But the problem isn’t they’re now in government and they have five years. And, you know, you can look at approval ratings and all of that, but actually they have five years. This is time for some brave decisions. And it feels like Labour is still. For some reason signaling to the rye, even though it doesn’t really need the support of the rye anymore, it could be great if they won the election by a landslide. They can be braver here. And you know, if what is Labour for? If it’s not for standing up for the rights of not only working people, but people who need the support of the state. Labour is supposed to be the party of the day. So when you’re talking, even in a passing comment about going after benefit fraud, when there are so many other issues of corruption and wasted money, especially when you are running a government that has DWP, the Department for Work and Pensions in there that we know is simply not fit for purpose. We know that the Incompetence series of DWP and its inefficiencies have actually led to worsening people’s sickness to some deaths. Definitely to make life a lot harder for vulnerable people.

 

Coco Khan I really feel like we need to have a better conversation about benefits in this country, as is getting a little bit on a personal level. I’m getting angry and I don’t like me when I’m angry. The benefits is, of course, an enormously important topic, and it does require more time than we have today. So next week, we’re going to be looking at how these crackdowns can disproportionately affect minority groups and also just the fairness of the benefit system in general. If you’ve been affected by benefit sanctions in the past, I have some thoughts you want to share. Please do email in. I promise you this is a safe space. I can say as a as a child of a single parent mum who worked all hours of the day, we still needed some help from the benefits system. So this is very much a safe space and I understand how it can be. If you do want to email the address is PSUK@Reducedlistening.co.uk and don’t forget to subscribe if you haven’t already. You can catch us in your feeds next Thursday.

 

Nish Kumar There was a protest during the speech. He was referring to the dead children of Gaza and Keir Starmer sort of dismissed him with a slightly glib putdown, suggesting that he had had a conference once for the 2019 Labour conference. Elsewhere in the speech, Starmer did say that he would be going to the UN to reaffirm his calls for a ceasefire in the region. Again, I think that kind of glib tone, given the seriousness of that subject matter, was not was absolutely not appropriate. And again, if your whole thing is I’m a boring pencil pushing civil servant, you can’t flashes of that kind of glibness fundamentally undermine your message as a serious, diligent man, especially given the severity of the subject that the protester was trying to engage him on.

 

Coco Khan Right. Exactly. I mean, it wouldn’t have cost anything to just say, I understand the depth of feeling on this issue is a great moral question. Over time, I’m commit to you. Now why do you have to take a swipe at people who are not even in the room anymore? God, what is this?

 

Zoë Grünewald Also who, you know, young party members. I mean, you know, that age makes a difference. But those you know, it’s actually it’s difficult to engage young people in politics.

 

Nish Kumar They protest that the interrupted speech is abdicating an end to arms sales to Israel, particularly significant given that last week Israel sent thousands of explosive pages to members of the militant group Hezbollah that injured 3000 people. This week has launched a series of airstrikes into Lebanon. Keir Starmer has been telling UK citizens that now is the time to leave this the start. As we record on Wednesday of a potential evacuation operation for UK citizens in the region. Over on our sister pod pod, Save the World host Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes deep dive into the attack and discuss Kamala Harris’s leadership style on national security and foreign policy. So listen to this week’s episode of Pod Save the World wherever you get your podcasts. Now, despite trying to drown out the noise of Starmer’s game drama for anyone who didn’t hear, last week’s episode is what Cocos decided to call the government’s suggested.

 

Coco Khan Okay, this is democracy. On this show with our listeners as well, it was a suggestion.

 

Nish Kumar They sort of continued to get caught up in it. So what do you think of this strategy of essentially going. Come on. Bridget Phillipson said it was hard to turn down the hard to turn down as a direct quote. Tickets to Taylor Swift.

 

Coco Khan It was an offer that he couldn’t refuse. It’s that good?

 

Nish Kumar You sounded like Ray Winston.

 

Coco Khan Because you were doing the New York thing. So I felt I would “it was an offer she couldn’t refuse. I can’t do it. It’s too hard now.

 

Nish Kumar I can tell from the content of what you’re saying. You’re talking about a Brando impression, but the tone is pure by Winston.

 

Coco Khan Let me try again. It was an offer she could not refuse.

 

Nish Kumar Now you sound like Tom White.

 

Coco Khan I sound like I smoke a lot. Anyway, sorry. Go on.

 

Nish Kumar Rachel Reeves also defended her own donations, also of clothes from the gay to direct, quote, a friend who wanted to help. Is this wise? As an external observer, it does seem again, if your whole position is we are serious people delivering on public service and we are not like the other guys, we’re in public service who really want to serve the public. Is it a wise position to then go book Taylor Swift?

 

Zoë Grünewald Yeah, I’m.

 

Nish Kumar Pretty good.

 

Zoë Grünewald Yes. Yeah. I mean. It is the case that for a long time politicians have been doing things like this and it is above board in the sense that it you know, if you declare it in your register of interests, then that’s within the rules. Now, should we be having a conversation about whether that should happen? Yes, we probably should. And arguably Labour the right party to do that. They made restoring public service a whole chapter in their manifesto. They saw how actually sleaze scandals can bring entire governments down and Boris Johnson. Keir Starmer You know, he is the law and order guy. He is former Director of Public Prosecutions. He absolutely could have made this his whole thing. I am going to restore your trust. We’re going to be squeaky clean. We’re going to do everything with just public service in mind. What they should have done, I think, is they should have seen their seen how the public were responding and say, you’re right. And I think we’re going to have a look at the rules and we’re going to change them. They shouldn’t be saying it’s fine. Everyone does it. We’ve been doing it for ages. The opposition have done it. It’s just how politics works. You know, the friend wanted to give me address, so I you know, I was very nice because people don’t trust politicians. They don’t trust their motivations. And when there’s those personal donations, I don’t know how they can’t see how that undermines their message. It get it feels like it’s playing into that narrative of there’s one rule for politicians and another rule for everyone else. Yeah, and Labour should be particularly hot on that.

 

Coco Khan Do you think there’s an issue that because they’ve already accepted some of them, there might be some political blowback? I wonder if maybe that’s why there’s a reluctance there.

 

Zoë Grünewald I mean, potentially, I mean, take Lord Ali. I mean, he is not only a big donor for the Labour Party, but he also works you know, he’s he’s a peer. He does campaigning for Labour. I mean, he says he loves Labour and that’s why he wanted to make these donations. If that’s true, then the party saying to him, We don’t really want to take any more of your money in a personal capacity. Yeah. He should be like, Yeah, great. Whatever helps you guys stay in power, right? Yeah. If there are donors who are like, Well, that’s going to make our relationship very difficult, then that proves exactly why they shouldn’t have a relationship.

 

Nish Kumar Was that it was a quid pro quo? Well, it wasn’t just that he loves the Labour Party.

 

Zoë Grünewald Precisely.

 

Coco Khan So sorry. I shouldn’t laugh when you said, he just loves the Labour.

 

Zoë Grünewald Yes. That’s what he said.

 

Coco Khan Babe c’mon.

 

Nish Kumar He keeps saying all he wants to do is, you know, deliver a Labour government to power. Yeah, that’s why he keeps on giving them. I don’t fully see how this plays into Keir Starmer having different glasses. That does it fully. I mean, he has to be able to read.

 

Zoë Grünewald Somebody made a comment. It was a Labour adviser. I can’t remember who. Somebody was saying these were very particular glasses with a special blue light filter that helps him read the auto queue. And I thought, come on. Like, come on my my glasses provider at the blue light thing for like £80. Obviously I say no because I want to spend that money.

 

Nish Kumar But I do love blue light. He’s one of the few people that’s probably lying, Yeah.

 

Coco Khan And this. But despite the negative public sentiment, Energy Secretary Ed Miliband has stayed perky. He told a Labour Climate and Environment Forum drinks It’s a bit like Mario Government things fly at you. You’ve just got to keep going. And if you think you’re going to have an easy day in government, you’re not so nice for him to compare this all to being blue shelled. Yes. Yes. You know, very, very own brand for Ed Miliband.

 

Nish Kumar This is how you engage a millennial audience. Mario Kart references that. This is something we could all understand.

 

Coco Khan Zoe, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you.

 

Nish Kumar Now, one of the consistent lines trotted out by the government throughout the Garm drama is that our politics relies on donations. Well, that might be true right now, but should it? After the break, we’re going to find out.

 

Coco Khan Now, there’s no denying that Keir Starmer loves a freebie. Whether it’s Taylor Swift tickets or a corporate box at the Arsenal game. He’s accepted more gifts than any other Labour leader since 1997 combined, but there’s no such thing as a free lunch. So they say. So what are big business and millionaires hoping to gain from gifts and donations? Someone who’s been looking into this is Simon Kuper. Financial Times journalist and author of Good Chaps How Corrupt Politicians Broke Our Law and Institutions and What We Can Do About It. Thanks for joining us, Simon.

 

Simon Kuper Pleasure.

 

Nish Kumar Is it odd to be someone who’s summoned to discuss corruption?

 

Simon Kuper It’s something I’m getting used to. I guess I just dived into corruption when I began researching this book was astounded how much there was. Everybody just seems to live with. And now I. I talk about.

 

Coco Khan It. So, you know, we talked a lot during those last days of the conservatives about sleaze. What is the distinction between like sleaze and corruption?

 

Simon Kuper Sleaze is a versus euphemism because British people don’t want to say that there’s corruption in Britain, because corruption, obviously. And you have in Brazil or Russia and bad countries in Britain, we can’t have that. So sleaze is a way of making it sound sort of titillating tabloid headlines. Corruption is I’m using the World Bank definition abuse of public office for private gain. So if you’re an MP or a civil servant or you could be a doctor or a police officer, you use that office to make money for yourself. And that can be completely legal. So we have ex prime ministers who go off and work for Saudi Arabia, Kazakhstan, try and go and do business with China, etc.. It’s legal, but they’re still monetizing their office. So to me, that’s corrupt.

 

Nish Kumar Have you been surprised by the nature of the first couple of weeks of office and the scandal around these donations or the clothing and. Free tickets. Acceptance.

 

Simon Kuper I think it’s incredibly stupid. That would be my sense. It is a form of corruption. And that, you know, because you have official leader of the opposition, you got some free clothes, but it’s not such a big deal. I mean, he could have bought the clothes, he could have paid Arsenal for the box. And so instead of drawing a sharp contrast between a conservative government where there were terrible cases of corruption, most of all the covered VIP line, then you could come in and say, we don’t do that and somebody wants to give you free clothes and you say, No, we don’t accept free clothes. I’d like them, but I can’t do it. It would just have been so easy. And it’s incredibly stupid to have lost that moral lead and to have set a tone that people are going to remember for years.

 

Coco Khan I mean, Keir Starmer and his ministers have repeatedly said that they’re acting according to the rules. I just wonder, can you explain to me what exactly are the rules? Is it just anything goes as long as you declare it?

 

Simon Kuper Pretty much, yeah. That’s the British system. You. You phrase it very well. Anything goes as long as you declare it.

 

Nish Kumar Sounds like the Purge.

 

Coco Khan Yeah.

 

Simon Kuper You know this phrase that transparency is the best disinfectant. Which is. Which is nonsense. Because you can be completely transparent. You took a donation from some crook, you put it on the register. You hope that nobody will check it. You know, there’s fewer and fewer sort of local journalists who are an MP in the north east say, who will go through that. So mostly anything goes. As long as you can declare it is right. And they didn’t even declare some of this, which is so odd.

 

Nish Kumar And not everybody thinks this stinks. Here’s Ex-footballer Gary Neville defending the prime minister in this clip from ITV.

 

Clip It seems to me that they’re being given a bit of a rough ride on certain things that the previous government didn’t seem to be given a rough ride on. Rishi’s 40 million pound helicopter contract seems to have been sort of forgotten about. We’ll concentrate on a few tickets for an Arsenal match.

 

Coco Khan What would you say to that, Simon?

 

Simon Kuper I think he has a point. The when I was researching corruption under the Conservatives, there was so much of it that each scandal would displace the next one. So soon, I got helicopter rides from a donor who later got into legal problems. And you know, this lives and dies a couple of days in the newspaper. And then there’s some other terrible scandal. Boris Johnson goes and meets the Venezuelan dictator paid by a hedge fund manager. So the main Tory donor, Frank Hester, who I think is the largest donor to any political party in the history of British politics, gave the conservatives about 15 million comes out that, he said terribly racist, misogynistic things about Diane Abbott, Labour MP and you know, it’s a story for a few days and then it’s completely faded. Yeah, so it’s true. I mean, I think Steve Bannon coined the phrase you flood the zone with shit. I don’t think the Tories were deliberately doing that, but it works very well as a distraction tactic.

 

Nish Kumar They have sort of conveniently timed bouts of diarrhea.

 

Simon Kuper And I think by the end of the Conservative government they didn’t have a side project anymore. They didn’t believe in the same thing. They didn’t really try to pass any laws and they knew they were going to lose. So it was each person for themselves. Just describe while you can.

 

Coco Khan Flood the zone with shit. Yeah.

 

Simon Kuper That’s Bannon’s it applies to media strategy. So if if there’s a bad scandal about you, you just crazy. All the scandal. Five others. Five other stories. And the problem with Labour is that this story has stuck for a week, ten days, and people dig further and then there’s a new item of clothing.

 

Coco Khan Well, so it works for media and it also works for our public waterworks, a policy that can do both. So in your book, you argue that the UK has become more corrupt over the last few decades. I think it’s almost the public are expecting it. So I guess one of the things I’m trying to work out is how corrupt is Britain? You know, marks out of ten.

 

Simon Kuper It’s impossible to measure corruption. Exactly, because by definition, most of it is hidden. Right. You don’t go out and declare. Well, I you know, I stole various things from government this week. So the best approach is, is transparency, international corruption, perceptions in tax, where they ask people who are exposed in particular countries, you know, how much corruption do you think there is in that country? You also get surveys of people. Have you paid bribes to which in Britain the answer is almost invariably no. I mean, there’s almost nobody in Britain who’s ever paid a bribe. You don’t have to bribe a nice or a police officer in Britain. And so Britain was where the cohort of northern European countries, I think about a decade ago, would have been considered one of the better ones in this northern European cohort, now considered one of the worst. So in that particular cohort. So it’s not going to be Nigeria, it’s not going to be Russia, but it’s not in it doesn’t really compare with, say, Denmark anymore, which is a very clean country. It’s fallen quite sharply in just a few years down the Transparency International rankings.

 

Nish Kumar And also in the book, you point out that that has real world consequences for the government because the Moody’s, the credit ratings agency, that’s actually part of why they’ve downgraded Britain’s credit rating. What a factor in a travesty makes government borrowing harder.

 

Simon Kuper Yeah, bad governance. And if you feel, well, I don’t want to buy the bonds of a country where the government is giving contracts to people who are donors to the. The ruling party, I mean, is very much you know, the rope line scandal is very much like how Sierra Leone handled Ebola, where all the Ebola contracts went to friends of the president. So, yeah, I mean, when you’re thinking of lending to Britain and Liz Truss tested the proposition that people were still willing to lend Britain’s, which they said maybe not so much, this does become a factor. But generally, I mean, more directly, government money goes missing to the tune of billions in some cases through corruption.

 

Nish Kumar So the book is titled Good Chaps, which comes from this good chap’s theory of government, recalling a time where the people around the country were considered to be people who did the right thing instinctively without the need for explicit rules. And we’re now sort of it particularly highlights the kind of 21st century problem that particularly post 2010, where the lack of an explicit need for rules is being tested to its its kind of breaking point. Can you pinpoint a moment where things start to go wrong?

 

Simon Kuper I would say it starts. With Margaret Thatcher, who herself was not corrupt. She was sort of restrained from stealing from government by a very strong Christian ethic. She thought it was wrong. And so even when her ministers would meet to discuss Tory party business, they had to pay for their own sandwiches because you’re not discussing government work. It’s part of the business. So everyone pays for their own food. And however, she kind of didn’t really believe in public service. It was weird because she was a public servant, but she was always dissing it. People who worked in the public sector were sort of losers and leeches on the state, and the real heroes of Britain were business people. She had this idea that to get rich was glorious and she’d bring in business people to advise government because business is obviously better than government. And I think that’s when you start on the right got this waning of the public service ethos, because if you think of conservative politicians like a previous generation, like Harold Macmillan or Anthony Eden Churchill, I mean, they spend their whole lives in public service, starting with World War One, because they had gone out to fight and if necessary, die for person one. They believe that the highest thing you could do with your life was to serve the states. And, you know, business was a bit vulgar and grubby. And yeah, not it was very much not where it was happening. And so this public service ethos starts to disintegrate with Thatcher. And then what you get in from the 80s and 90s is you got a lot of money coming into London for Start. The city grows enormously after Thatcher’s big Bang of 1986. Suddenly you have people in banks and hedge funds who are earning millions. And the other thing is you get a lot of people from the former communist countries, especially the former US, as all coming to park that ill gotten money here. So Roman Abramovich is very spectacular example but there’s lots and lots of them. I think Moscow, you know you can be hurt in a drive by shooting in your favorite restaurant. Yeah, in Kensington, not so much. So.

 

Nish Kumar I mean, that didn’t always prove to be the case for a couple of pretty high profile people.

 

Simon Kuper Yeah. Later prison came to get them, But for a while, London seemed a very safe haven. Expensive schools, good tailors. And so a lot of money came here. And those people would learn from their home countries, not just from Soviet Union, but also say. Egypt’s. They learn in their home countries that if you protect your money by being friendly with people in government and the people in government, they also want a bit of money. And let’s see if that proposition works in the UK. Alternate to the ruling party. So you got a surge of money. These people very quickly get UK passports because there’s a fast track of golden visas for rich people. So suddenly you’re a UK citizen. You have all this money that you’ve taken out of Russia and you start giving it to a political party. So the ruling party, because you’d be an idiot to give to the opposition. And so a lot of conservative donations in the years between about 2010 and 2022 come from Russians, former Russians.

 

Coco Khan One of the things I wanted to ask, just because you know, what you’ve outlined there is big, big money players. And obviously, we you know, we started the show talking about the donations, the gifts given to members of the Labour Party and ministers, you know, Taylor Swift tickets, generally, those sums would be considered smaller. But is it are they comparable in terms of the result? So, you know, we spoke about how in the UK you can do what you like as long as you declare it, but you never have to declare what that donor has asked for in return? No. So are we right to assume that of all of these gifts, there would have been something in return?

 

Simon Kuper There are some people who just genuinely believe in the party and sometimes they want something, but mostly they just want that party to do well. And the key examples I cite from the past are the Sainsbury cousins. So you have David Sainsbury, who goes to Labour. I mean, probably the biggest Labour donor over time in the several millions. And his cousin John Sainsbury gives the Tories. And I don’t think either none of them were involved in the business anymore. They kind of left the family business, the supermarket, decades earlier. Both David and John just wanted their party to win. They’re not asking for anything back. So you get that kind of donor. And I think Lord Ali, who is the figure who was involved in the current Labour scandal, he’s actually a mini Sainsbury in that way. He gives much smaller amounts to Labour. But he’s been a Labour peer. He’s been inside for such a year, I think he just wants Labour to win and he feels well. If they have nice clothes on TV, they’re more likely to win. I think what I would look at if I were doing investigative journalism is here’s the chief fundraiser for the party. So I’m not so much worried about the money that Lord Ali gives. I think he gives because he’s a supporter. I’m worried about the people who come to Lord Ali and say, you know, I’d like to give some money to Labour.

 

Nish Kumar So it’s not necessarily his donation specifically and what quid pro quo he might be getting?

 

Simon Kuper No, I don’t think he’s particularly looking for a quid pro quo. And also, you know what? If you’re a rich person and you like politics and you could go to the Lord, you like hang around the political scene, you have a pass to Downing Street. Often you just want to be involved.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah.

 

Simon Kuper And the the people who run the show think, well, why are we going to bring you in? You’re not a major figure in the Labour Party. And they say, well, I can give you some money. So a lot of a lot of the donations are a little bit idiosyncratic. I’m not saying that what has happened with Labour now is okay at all. I think it’s a disgrace. But I don’t think it’s as you say, it’s not big money and I don’t think the Lord Alli donations themselves are dangerous. I think his position as gatekeeper is dangerous.

 

Coco Khan Thinking about the donors that donate whatever some it might be or get through Lord Alli, how do they know what they’re going to get in return?

 

Simon Kuper You don’t. So a lot of what political parties do is try to screw the donors. So often with a conservative party you have this cohort of libertarian blokes in the city, I think of Crispin Odey or Paul Marshall, and these people like generally they want low tax, they hate their, you know, regulations and they don’t like any rules because they think rules don’t apply to people like me. So when Covid happens, the Tory donors are saying just, you know, open it all up, don’t lock us down. Just let let it all hang out. And they’re very anti lockdown. And the Tories have to be nice to these people and listen to them because they give you money. But the Tories are thinking, Yeah, but our voters are pensioners. They like having an NHS. They often rely on pensions, other state benefits.

 

Nish Kumar And then the most vulnerable group, the vulnerable group. So runs, runs riot.

 

Simon Kuper Yeah, they want lockdowns. So the Tories have to say to donors, Yeah, yeah, you know, man, I hear you on these lockdowns. But they also have to keep the lockdowns. So it’s a lot of the job of the party is disappointing. Donors letting down donors.

 

Nish Kumar So we talked about Frank Hester already. The people who don’t remember the emerged in that he said in 2019 that looking at Diane Abbott and I quote, makes you want to hate all black women and that she should be shot. He gave them over 10 million pounds in the past.

 

Simon Kuper I think it’s now 15 million.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah, that’s right. So he’s added he’s given them a further 5 million just before the general election. As far as I know, that overturned any of that money.

 

Simon Kuper But you can’t I mean, if it’s so much, you can’t return it. Like if somebody gives you ten grand and then they turn out to have done something bad, you say, I’m going to be very much, we’ll give the ten grand back. Somebody gives you 15 million pounds. That’s your whole. Organization. I don’t think anyone in the history of British politics had ever donated 15 million pounds in a single year.

 

Nish Kumar What someone like Frank has done to get out of that relationship.

 

Simon Kuper I mean, he says he’s he talks a lot to soon ask about ROI and how that would revolutionize health care. And I think that he feels, you know, I’m at the cutting edge of health care. That’s the main field. He’s an entrepreneur. And obviously there’s going to be the government is going to want to regulate stuff. I need a hotline to government. And I think he also thinks, you know, the Tories are much better than Labour. The Tories are good policy for the country, Labour are bad policy for the country. So to some degree is genuine belief. But also I mean the man is running a serious business that can be regulated by government. So he has an interest in getting in the way or influencing what that regulation could be.

 

Nish Kumar It also should be noted that Labour has accepted donations from mega-donors. Nothing in the region of that.

 

Simon Kuper Is getting it’s getting close to that, but it’s the Labour donors, the three main ones. So David Sainsbury doesn’t really have a business. Gary Lubna was also Glass and he’s kind of he steps out of that. And then there’s Dale Vince, who’s a green entrepreneur. Those are the three big ones.

 

Nish Kumar And then so there’s also this the largest ever donation of 4 million pounds came from a Cayman Islands registered hedge fund, Quadrature, which holds interests in fossil fuels, private wealth firms, arms manufacturers and asset managers. And donations like this have to be declared, obviously, but they aren’t necessarily cleared immediately. So in this case, it was received on the 28th of May this year, but was only declared by Labour two weeks ago. I mean, is it too cynical to suggest that’s a deliberate?

 

Simon Kuper It’s deliberate. So there’s, I think, a three month window in which you have to declare donations. So you discuss with the donor, you know, donate before the election so we could spend the money, but donate at a time where three months later it’s going to be August or something. Nobody’s going to care. Everyone will have won the election anyway. So you you time the donations for the best possible moment. And you know, you declare is at 7 p.m. on a Friday when the news lasts or IMC. So yeah, all this is thought through beforehand.

 

Nish Kumar It’s amazing how even in an era of 24 hour news, it’s still dropping. Something at 7 p.m. on a Friday.

 

Coco Khan Is a classic. And so, I mean, this all sounds very terrible. But after the break, we are going to be discussing how we can try to fix this mess.

 

Nish Kumar So. Simon it’s something that government ministers have been repeating over the last week is that politics relies on donations. That phrase keeps recurring. How true is this?

 

Simon Kuper It is now true. So these policies, Labour and the Tories used to be mass member organizations. Paul McCartney’s first gig, when he’s about 15, is that, he says, a place called the Conservative Club in some suburb of Liverpool because there were millions and millions of members of conservative clubs all over the UK. And they’d go there on a Saturday night to listen to music, to play billiards, to have cheese parties. And they, you know, they paid membership fees in that fund at the party that Labour had a version of that which was more through trade union members giving money to Labour. And as that wanes, you know, obviously all those conservative clubs are now shuttered. They don’t exist anymore. You then start to need donations. And so that from the 90s becomes the big story. Now you could do it differently. So in other countries, like in France where I live, there’s significant government money going to fund parties. And in the UK there’s virtually none. The opposition gets a bit of short money. It’s called. I think other parties also get it. But mostly it’s what keeps the opposition alive. But it’s very small and. Obviously, if you said to British people, I reckon if we had £130 million. Yes, that’s 2 pounds per break, more or less. We could get rid of political donations. Then the policies could have organizations like I think tanks like German policies do. But if you were to try and pass a law saying the taxpayer is going to get £130 million to political parties, I think it would not be very popular right now.

 

Nish Kumar Well, one of the things we’ve been talking about the last couple of weeks is unpopular policies that you like to get across. And those have ranged from the serious, which is, you know, reforming the capital gains tax system and council tax to the frivolous, which is cocoa, forcing people who own dogs to have a license when the.

 

Coco Khan Dogs very badly behave. Simon I’m just saying it’s an epidemic.

 

Simon Kuper Dogs are a problem. I’m not sure I would allow them anyway. That might be the most unpopular in British history.

 

Nish Kumar I think. I think you’ve seen Coco’s all popular policy and raised it to me.

 

Coco Khan Yeah. Hold my drink.

 

Nish Kumar Simon Is that your next the sequel to Good Chaps is going to be bad dogs.

 

Simon Kuper I, I don’t think I would dare go there.

 

Nish Kumar You so you’ll go after political corruption but not dog owners.

 

Simon Kuper Yeah I regret now having said it.

 

Nish Kumar I mean, in a way this is sort of part of the concluding chapter of the book. Like this in some ways could be the most unpopular policy that we’ve discussed. We’ve had sort of roughly around £0.25 per registered vote towards political parties, but taking it up to 2 pounds from every citizen. Creating this hundred 30 million pound pot of money, which on the surface we say is sort of, you know, seems completely unpopular. But if you were to make the case that. This could end. Political donations could actually be an incredibly popular policy. I’m just saying. Were it framed in the right way?

 

Simon Kuper It would save an enormous amount of money. So with the Covid inquiry, they’re going to come through the Covid VIP loan scandal, which is March 2020. We need Covid’s reach the UK. We need loads of protective kit masks, gowns in a hurry, just millions and millions of masks. And where are you going to get them? It’s just a crisis. It’s a nightmare. And what happens is a lot of conservative donors like Shell Moan, kind of WhatsApp ministers who that makes it worse because if you’re a donor, you make politicians laugh at dinners because you’ve got to be at the dinner and they say, well, I have a PPE company, I can supply you with Kit. And the minister Whatsapps back. So, yeah, brilliant. I’ll tell the civil servants. I’ll tell the civil servants to wave you through. And so they have this what? The civil servant starts to call the VIP lane, where if you’ve been referred by a minister, then the civil servants are terrified of saying no. And the civil servants internally have these conversations. Yeah, but this person, ministers, mate has never made or acquired masks. While we forget about it, don’t worry about it. Push it through. And then you have people whose job it is to make and supply medical masks. They can’t get through on the line. They don’t know who’s call because they’re not conservative donors. They don’t have the WhatsApp numbers. And so what happens in these weeks is that billions of pounds are wasted and we end up with PPE mounts. And I think part of the new forest, there’s this literally there’s this landfill where we have all these unused and often unusable because bad, crappy masks and gowns supplied by donors and just storing them costs billions. So you have a you have a bad mosque. You can’t do anything. We have to store it. And so by some estimates, we spend more on the mosques than. Then we paid in the first place. So it’s just a nightmare running into the billions. And if you didn’t have political party donors, I think this would never have happened. Because ministers are afraid to say no to donors. And, you know, one corruption expert I spoke to said this is the biggest case of state capture in British history. Now, versions of this happen all the time in smaller ways. You know, if you’re a company selling to government, you want to find a way to funnel money to the ruling party. So they’ll pick up the phone to you and you say, you know what? We’re making a new helicopter. I think it would be great for the UK armed forces. Can I come in and have a chat? And your call is taken because you’re a donor. I have developed a new piece of healthcare technology I think will be great for the NHS. I could see every hospital working with that improve outcomes. When I gave you guys 1 million pounds last year. Sure. Come on in.

 

Coco Khan I can see you can sort of see how it happens. So ministers, as you’ve outlined, have always had a bit of a job to say no to donors, but increasingly are more dependent on them because of the collapse of the membership models. So I wondered, my first thought was like, what? What about rebuilding membership models? Could that also be a way around it or making ministers be better at saying no to donor through rules? Or do you think those too could have legs?

 

Simon Kuper I mean, sadly, all community organizations have all kind of collapsed in recent decades. So few people go to church or other religious services anymore. They don’t belong to trade unions and pubs, which we’re a former British community has also shrunk massively. So we have churches turning against pubs and probably starting in something else. So I don’t I just don’t see that you could get millions of people. I mean, it happened briefly under Labour with Corbyn, the kind of 3 pound members who brought Corbyn to power. I don’t see it as a durable thing. So I think that we just need to go to a system of massive rules which we have never had in British politics. Limiting what you as a politician or civil servant can do. So, for example, if you work for the Ministry of Defense, you can’t three months later be working for an arms company that sells the Ministry of Defense.

 

Nish Kumar Is there a country that we can look to as a model for remedying these kind of problems? Is there an example that you can think of around the world that where they are getting it right? Or maybe they’ve changed things in a way that’s pushed it in the right direction?

 

Simon Kuper Well, I mean, I live in Paris, have been there 20 years. A decade ago, have said France is a significantly more politically corrupt country than the UK. And that, you know, French people get very angry about political corruption. And so then in 2017, when Macron’s elected, he sees this and does what Starmer hasn’t yet done, and he says, we’re going to have massive rules on what he calls the moralization of politics. And so, for example, you never used to have to have receipts. You say, I spent €100 on this, and they would refund it to you. There was no limit for what you could spend for lunch. So you go for massive, you know, five course lunches and then you’d have elderly male politician bringing along 22 year old female intern for five course lunch. And it was it was all the way it worked. It was done with impunity. And you I mean, the famous case is Francois Fillon, who was prime minister in France for several years. He supposedly employed his wife, a Welsh woman, actually, Penelope, as an employee. And all the employees in France were doing this. You employ your spouse, spouses, and many have to turn up to wipe your scribes on massive salaries. So Penelope Fuel got, I think, into the millions of euros over many, many years for what she never did well. And so all this is reform. There’s stricter rules. The politicians whine about it. I spoke to a restaurateur who works near the Assembly Nationale and he says, yeah, politicians don’t have any money anymore. So I now have this set price lunch for €49 because he said they could only charge €50 on expenses. So it kind of wipes out in the luxury industry that it accrued around it. And I mean, French people still whine and complain about their politicians all the time, but it has actually clean things up a bit. Nobody’s willing to admit it, but French politics is a bit cleaner.

 

Coco Khan You know, you were talking about the 2 pound per citizen would have 130 million pounds, so that would wipe out down 130 million pounds. Really be enough. Like there’s probably, if you added it all up between the two parties is probably more money than that. No.

 

Simon Kuper It’s true that in the last couple of years, I mean, of course ahead of an election. Amounts have spiraled to levels that we’ve never seen before. But if you say 130 million pounds a year. That is a similar to what the parties combined probably bring in in a good year when there’s not an election. So I don’t think they would have much cause to whine too much about that.

 

Nish Kumar Is another potentially unpopular idea making sure that employees get paid more. I mean, I can see how difficult that would be to make a case. But what we also want to do is and I mean, part of the thing the book highlights as well as, you know, the Good Chaps principle of government was based on this idea that a lot of the people, a lot of these good chaps were themselves independently wealthy. And it wasn’t necessarily it wasn’t a salary that they were necessarily relying on a ministerial terms in terms of getting the best caliber of politicians and also ensuring that, you know, we you know, we encourage as many people from as wide a social base as possible to go into politics. And then once they’re in the job, they’re not reliant on second jobs and second salaries. Is there an argument for paid pays more?

 

Simon Kuper Well, I think the MP salary is now 91,000 pounds. Yeah. So that’s about two and a half times the average wage. So if you say that to the average person and someone like Walsall or Nannies and where I was before the election covering what was supposed to be the election campaign, they’ll say 91 grand, you’re kidding me. Most people in Britain think MPs are just minting it. It’s incredible amounts of money. The problem is we have two economies. We have the London economy, especially the high end London economy for educated people, where 91 grand is not much money. And especially if you’re a conservative, they tend to have richer friends, private school friends who are making millions as lawyers or hedge funders. They think 91 grand and can’t possibly live on that. So Johnson in Downing Street is complaining without irony that on the Prime Minister’s salary of about 150 grand, he can’t afford to.

 

Nish Kumar Live because the chicken feed, I think, is the phrase that was reported he used about the salary and.

 

Simon Kuper He doesn’t seem to understand, although of course he’s a very good communicator, didn’t seem to understand that the average British people, this is an unfathomable amount. And the thing is, he’s comparing himself not to average British people. You compare yourself to Notting Hill. So the 91 grand means completely different things inside the Beltway, as it were. And outside.

 

Coco Khan One of my unpopular theories maybe is maybe it wouldn’t be unpopular. But like definitely to many rich people, it’s corrosive for society.

 

Simon Kuper That’s what happens in London. London became the city in Europe with the most British people, while our political and public realm decayed and became poorer.

 

Coco Khan Yeah. And it distorts the thinking of people around them. Do you know what I mean?

 

Simon Kuper Yeah.

 

Nish Kumar I think that disconnect, isn’t it? Because suddenly if you’re. If you live and work at a place where people are earning four times your salary or more.

 

Coco Khan Wait, but wait. British employees do get paid less than our counterparts in other.

 

Simon Kuper Countries that are relatively low compared to employees in rich countries. I mean, we we have a lot of employees, but I do think it’s relatively low. I think the worst thing for the MPs is the public abuse. So it’s become a very low status job. And of course, now they can easily be reached and they’re also afraid of being attacked. And so a lot of it is just misery, you know, and we still have lots of people who want to be MPs. It’s still somehow a sexy job, but the reality of it is brutal and miserable. I mean, I would like to create a climate where people are quite positive about politicians and unfortunately, with these Labour donations, that immediately wipes out the idea that, you know, they might be good people who want the best for the country. I think on both sides, most people go into politics thinking that they’re good people who want the best for the country.

 

Nish Kumar Before you go, we have to our. Simon, I know you can’t be bought, but if you could be, is it would you take Taylor Swift or Arsenal tickets?

 

Simon Kuper So I was offered Taylor Swift tickets by a public relations guy.

 

Coco Khan Here we go.

 

Simon Kuper And the Financial Times rules on taking. I write for the FCA on taking gifts have become very strict.

 

Coco Khan So yeah, as they should, yeah. Yeah.

 

Simon Kuper And I thought, I can’t even really be bothered if I have to go all the way across Paris to see this concert. And I asked, my daughter is something. I’m an expert. And she said, you would not enjoy it. As for football, I’ve as a journalist covered hundreds and hundreds of football matches, so it would be a bit of a busman’s holiday. So, you know, I’d say I’d say no thank you to both.

 

Nish Kumar He cut off the bull, folks. The book is fantastic. It’s available now. Simon, thank you so much for joining us in parts of the UK.

 

Simon Kuper Thanks both of you. Thank you.

 

Nish Kumar Such an interesting conversation.

 

Coco Khan I know. I know. I keep thinking about that. Just that very simple policy of assigning 2 pounds per citizen to stop donations. I think it’s gray. I mean, I do. I personally give 2 pounds.

 

Nish Kumar What would be your dream back hander? What was your dream event? Back hand? Well, the.

 

Coco Khan Main thing for me is I just want to make sure that if I am able. Yeah, it’s expensive.

 

Nish Kumar Yeah, it’s cool.

 

Coco Khan Yeah. Like for my own sense of pride, you know, buy me for a boat and dress. Sorry. No.

 

Nish Kumar I don’t know about today’s, but I. I enjoyed the rhythm of the joke. I can’t be bored. I cannot be bored unless someone gives me the numbered y album for the first pressing. I can be bought that easily. We are absolutely sure that you will all have a lot of interesting reactions. I said what Simon Cooper said. So if you have any thoughts about political donations and especially about this idea of 2 pounds per taxpayer as a way of raising the funds to finance political parties, as a way of cutting off the influence of donations. How do you feel about that? Is it an absurd thing to ask people when we’re already going through a cost of living crisis? It’s a fascinating question. Also, we would like to know the things you could be bribed with. So if you have any of those, please email us at PSUK@reducedlistening.co.uk.

 

Coco Khan But everyone’s going to have like lovely things like world peace.

 

Nish Kumar No, not these guys. These everyone’s got a price. Even these no offense do gooders, even this pack of.

 

Coco Khan Why are you trying to ruin our relationship with our listeners?

 

Nish Kumar This pack of fair trade do gooders. And that’s it. Thanks for listening to Pod Save the U.K. And we want to hear your thoughts. Email us at PSUK@reducedlistening.Co.uk.

 

Coco Khan Don’t forget to follow at Pod Save the UK on Instagram tik-tok and Twitter. And if you want more of us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel.

 

Nish Kumar Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

 

Coco Khan Thanks to senior producer James Tindale and assistant producer May Robson.

 

Nish Kumar Our theme music by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

 

Coco Khan Thanks to our engineer Ryan Macbeth.

 

Nish Kumar The executive producers are Anoushka Sharma Dan Jackson and Madeline Herringer with additional support from Ari Schwartz.

 

Coco Khan And remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays, on Amazon, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.