In This Episode
Millions brace for food stamp losses as the federal shutdown drags on, Steve Bannon pushes Trump’s fantasy of a 2028 presidency, Eric Adams calls Andrew Cuomo ‘snake and a liar’ then endorses him for NYC Mayor, George Santos pens jailhouse blog ahead of pardon, the NBA faces a Mafia-backed betting scandal, and Angela Rye/Joe Budden conflict sparks debate over “elitism” in Black media.
Correction: An earlier version of this episode incorrectly stated the jurisdiction of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). ICE has national jurisdiction to enforce federal immigration laws anywhere in the US, including making arrests and patrolling. The episode audio has been updated to remove the error.
News
Santos From Behind Bars: Solitary Confinement
Millions may lose SNAP food stamp benefits if shutdown continues
NBA head coach and player charged in sprawling sports betting and Mafia-backed poker schemes
Food Assistance Resources
Find your local community fridge.
Follow @PodSavethePeople on Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey, this is DeRay and welcome to Pod Save the People. In this episode, it’s me, Myles and Sharhonda back to talk about all the news that you didn’t hear with regard to race, justice, and equity. And if you or someone you know has been impacted by the federal government shutdown, we are sending love and solidarity. We’ve added links in the episode description to help you find food aid and community support near you. Let’s continue to love and support each other. Here we go. [music break]
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: Well, a lot really does happen in a week, which I’ve said every week, but it really does. I’m like, this is sort of wild. This is DeRay at @deray on Twitter.
Myles E. Johnson: This is Myles E. Johnson at @pharaohrapture on Instagram.
Sharhonda Bossier: And this is Sharhonda Bossier. You can find me on LinkedIn at @BossierSha on Instagram or at @BossierS on Spill.
DeRay Mckesson: Bossier Sha. Bossier is a dope it’s just a dope name.
Myles E. Johnson: It is.
Sharhonda Bossier: Never changing it. Never changing it.
DeRay Mckesson: What’s your name? Bossier. It’s like she the boss. I’m sure you had that your whole life, but you know [?]–
Myles E. Johnson: I would just put Esquire in front of it, just lying.
DeRay Mckesson: Not in front of it, behind it, right?
Myles E. Johnson: You know who’s not a esquire. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: I’m like, did I miss something? I’m like, I think the letters go.
Myles E. Johnson: Bossier Esquire, yeah.
Sharhonda Bossier: There you go.
DeRay Mckesson: In in one of the more interesting pieces of news across the lakes, rivers, and oceans was the people who stole from the Louvre.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: This has nothing to do about race and justice or equity, but I was really interested at the theft that happened in the middle of the morning. I was like, oh, and they climbed straight out the window. They got these people in HD, 4K. And that wasn’t even the only jewelry that was stolen that day. They stole from other French places. They just went on a jewelry heist. And I was fascinated by that.
Sharhonda Bossier: Me too. And you know what? Since we don’t know who they are, this might be a story about race, injustice, and equity. [laugh] These might be people coming back for their ancestors’ things. And uh I’m not mad at that. Um. I do find it interesting that most of the world has reacted in like one of two ways, right? Like I live in Los Angeles, so everybody is like, you know, this is gonna make a great screenplay, right? Like, can’t wait to write that. Um. And then the other way is like, well, you lose it how you got it. You know what I mean? Like you pillaged and stole it. So karma, baby.
DeRay Mckesson: And shout out to the way the space has like gotten just smarter about stuff over the years. Because that would not have been the response a decade ago.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm-hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: But to see people be like, oh, well, they they stole that stuff anyway.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yup.
DeRay Mckesson: Is uh is interesting.
Myles E. Johnson: One thing that I wanted to like map onto this moment was the fact that Oceans Eleven came out in 2001 during the recession. So I do think in an interesting way, like there does seem to be this kind of pattern, even though I guess you can’t orchestrate this type of heist. One was like obviously directed and produced and the other one is real. But it does seem that when we’re in these kind of economic pressures, we get a lot of catharsis from seeing these moments of justice happen. I think that a lot of people internalize it as. And then also, um there to me is a lot of connectivity between this and um Luigi. Like I think that we’re just in an era of people uh desiring and loving to see uh whatever they feel is social justice. And it’s interesting because I feel like Hollywood is not enough anymore. So before it could be directed and scripted and acted, but now that we’re in the post-reality show era, and the post-social media era, people want the real thing. We don’t just want to see it in the beginning scenes of Pose. We want somebody to really uh be in pain for it. And you know, that’s the Louvre in this case.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: That’s the Louvre. There’s a lot of grifting going on, it seems, because the FBI is cracking down on the NBA.
Sharhonda Bossier: Whew.
DeRay Mckesson: When I saw the coach who had the x-ray glasses for the cards.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: Did y’all see the video of the x-ray glasses?
Sharhonda Bossier: I did not see the video. No.
Myles E. Johnson: Lemme see the video of the x-ray glasses.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh, the so that when you put the glasses on, it just shows in like infrared, it shows like what the card, like it just has like a big K in the middle of the card that you can only see with the glasses. And he, you know, they allege that they were actually working with the mafia. It was some–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: –Mafia component as a part of that. So that’s like a coach and some players. And then the second part of the NBA scandal was the betting, the gambling, like the fixing the games because they had bet money. Now, what is annoying about this administration is that they have jumbled all of it together because they just don’t like the NBA because the NBA has this far not embraced Trump in the way that the NFL has.
Sharhonda Bossier: Right.
DeRay Mckesson: So it was Chauncey Billups and Terry Rozier on the poker side and then a whole slew of other guys on the on the betting gambling side. And it is an interesting thing where at least, you know, when the FBI had press conferences, you sort of were like, okay, like I mean, obviously we’re skeptical of the police, but you weren’t like, oh, they just made everything up.
Sharhonda Bossier: Right.
DeRay Mckesson: Whereas this, you’re you you really don’t know anymore. You’re like, this could be all literally 100% made up, or it could be real. You don’t really know what what is up anymore, which is an interesting thing to be in.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah, I have to be honest, these kind of old school, like American themes. Like I am a huge like I I love film. I’m scared to say this, but it’s the truth. One of my favorite films is Pulp Fiction. And part of what makes Pulp Fiction great is this kind of um combining of these almost stereotypical uh American film themes. So you have a heist film inside of that kind of boxing ring where Bruce Willis was um was there was a fixed game and like this kind of like noir mystery, like all these kind of different um American film, novel stereotypes are just in one film but totally reimagined. And now it’s just back. Like we’re talking about like the mafia, we’re talking about gambling, we’re talking about all these different things, and it feels a little odd in a way that I’m still trying to figure out words to articulate because it feels um like uh we’re in a pattern. Like things that we’ve always interacted with are coming back in a more absurdist fashion, but in almost a um calculated absurdist fashion.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah, I mean, first I was like, what else has the mob been doing? You know, because I think we’ve been talking about the mafia as if it like doesn’t exist anymore.
DeRay Mckesson: What a great question by the way.
Myles E. Johnson: Getting elected. [laughter].
Sharhonda Bossier: I’m like what else they been doing?
DeRay Mckesson: What’s the mob been up to? Did they put an out of office message up? Sharhonda you’re hilarious.
Sharhonda Bossier: Um and then the other thing is you know I think this is also what happens when people have so much money they don’t know what to do with it. You know what I mean? Like y’all got too much money over there. Let me, a non-profit executive help you figure out how to better alleviate your tax burden and help you support social justice issues because y’all don’t need to be doing this and winding up on the news and in jail.
Myles E. Johnson: You just answered your own question. [laughter] They doing it so your non-profit ass doesn’t become more get more profitable. [laughter]
Sharhonda Bossier: Um but you know Chauncey Billups is a player and a coach that a lot of people have a tremendous amount of respect for and so I think also when I was a baby gay, all the girls I dated liked uh basketball and he was like at his peak then, so I spent a lot of time watching Chauncey Billups play basketball. Um and I just wonder what this is going to do to people’s like belief in the integrity of the sport and the game? Um. It because I you know people already think like there who’s gonna win this season is predetermined that this is basically like one choreographed kind of drama um or soap opera for sports fans that makes billionaires even richer. And I think this is gonna further undermine people’s confidence in the game and love and respect for it.
DeRay Mckesson: Sharhonda, I actually. I think I would have believed that more pre Trump. But I think that if I like I think that there’s a moment where you could literally be like I’m just being targeted. Like the but even the press conference, they’re like getting the words wrong. You know? It’s like.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: They all feel so amateur all of a sudden.
Sharhonda Bossier: Fair.
DeRay Mckesson: You’re like before this would be like careers over, everything’s a wrap. Da da da. But in this moment, you’re like, you know they’re going after Tish James with a woman who is who has never practiced law before.
Sharhonda Bossier: Qualified. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: You’re like this is really bizarre. So I don’t know. Um and then in the bizarre world of fools we get our dear friend Eric Adams. Who said all that stuff about Cuomo, talked cash money slick about Andrew Cuomo, and came out and endorsed him. Now I was just having this conversation with somebody, I thought Cuomo must have been smart. Like he’d been governor forever, he’s been in politics. He’s running for mayor, and I hear him talk for the first, like I have realized I’d never really heard him talk right? Like I’m seen him at press conferences during Covid and you know he had been governor forever and he ruled with an iron fist. I’m like well he must but they’ve been propping that man up, he ain’t no lights are on. He ain’t got it. They’ve been propping him up. But it is really interesting to see how afraid of Zohran they are.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: And what I love about Zohran is that Zohran can be he is so composed in his delivery. And the words are freaking them all out. And I love it, it is like such a beautiful so I’m proud of him as a Bodin alumn, and I’ve just like I love that you were like stressing these people all the way out and right, and like gets the right message, your hearts in a good place. Um, but Eric Adams, what a continued scammer. [music break]. Hey you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Sharhonda Bossier: I have so many things to say, first like I’m excited for Eric Adams to be out of office because he’s one of my favorite scammers to just sort of like follow and laugh at and quote. Um. But secondly, you know, in thinking about who’s lining up to endorse Cuomo over um Mamdani is you know a former white house speech writer. And a Washington Post columnist right, took to the opinion pages of the Post to skewer Mamdani and say that everyone should vote for Cuomo. And I clicked on the article and read it because um the headline was hold your noses New Yorkers, here’s the best choice for mayor. And I was like, for sure this is going to be like a I’m no radical but Mamdani is like the person you should vote for. And it was the exact opposite. He starts with talking about when David Duke, head of the Klan, ran for governor in uh Louisiana. And how terrible that was and then he goes on to say, and I actually feel like I should I should read part of this. Right? He says, let’s be clear, Cuomo does not belong in Gracie Mansion, he left the governor’s office a disgrace after a state investigation found that he sexually harrassed eleven women. And then carried out a campaign to exact retribution against one of his accusers. During the Covid pandemic he forced more than nine thousand covid positive patients back into nursing homes and then tried to cover up the number of the deaths that resulted. He was facing impeachment by the Democratic controlled New York State Senate when he resigned. Now he’s trying to make an improbable comeback, New Yorkers should hold their noses and pull the lever for him anyway. And that is just wild [laughter] to me.
DeRay Mckesson: What? Crazy.
Myles E. Johnson: That was from the New Yorker?
Sharhonda Bossier: From the Washington Post.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh okay, okay, okay, okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay. Um. The opinion section I’m assuming.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes, but this person is a columnist and a former White House speechwriter, right? So this is a person who like if you are in the in the political know and you’re looking for for guidance and advice, they wrote this and they ran it.
Myles E. Johnson: I hear that, but also I think because that last firing of Karen Attiah, I think that like delegitimized the Washington Post so much. At least to me, and if I think that that was such a public thing, and I think that it was such a decision that it feels to me, there’s certain places that just don’t even feel trustworthy anymore because of the the the actions that they made. Whereas um if the New Yorker ran it, I would have been like, oh, I and then I get the New Yorker, I was like, I ain’t run across that article. But um it’s so ridiculous. I I think what I liked about the moment of Eric Adams endorsing Cuomo was it showed the game of politics that they’ve all been playing for so long. And I think that now Zhoran genuinely doesn’t like y’all. Zohran’s genuinely doesn’t see it for any of y’all and is saying things that will not get him invited to any Upper East Side dinner parties. And y’all are not used to that. But y’all are used to saying a whole bunch of stuff that you don’t believe and then shaking hands and and and sexually harassing women afterwards in the same bar. That’s what y’all used to. But now Zohran’s like, oh, I don’t like y’all on camera or at Endo Sheen or anywhere else. Like I think that is a huge part of the response Zohran is getting too, is you kinda kinda can feel the genuine disdain.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Which we which we we’ve missed as people.
DeRay Mckesson: Well, as we go into the guy who will not be named but we must name Donald Trump. Uh. I don’t know if you saw Steve Bannon do that interview where he was ten toes down and he was like, Trump will will serve a third term.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: He is a divine prophet. He’s doing a third term.
[clip of Steve Bannon] He’s gonna get a third term. So Trump ’28. Trump is gonna be president in ’28 and people just oughta get accommodated with that.
[clip of unnamed news reporter] So what about the twenty second amendment?
[clip of Steve Bannon] There’s many different alternatives. At the appropriate time we’ll lay out what the plan is, but there’s a plan and President Trump will be the president in ’28.
DeRay Mckesson: You know, we all got gaslit on the far left, even though you know there’s a lot of protesters who are like, think I’m in the middle. Uh. But those of us who are like, take this man seriously, take all of them seriously. When they put these Project 2025, I remember hopping on a call about Project 2025, and people are like, DeRay, it’s just a scare tactic. Da da da da da. Take these people seriously. So I take Bannon seriously. The reporter is like, what about the constitution? And Bannon literally is like, don’t worry about it. We got a set of avenues that we can make this possible.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yup.
DeRay Mckesson: More information is coming soon. He says it ten toes down. Take these–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yup.
DeRay Mckesson: –people seriously. So I wanted to bring it here to see what you all had to say about the third term of Trump and Bannon’s uh the certainty with which Bannon said it.
Sharhonda Bossier: I mean, they released Trump 2028 hats and swag when they released Trump 2024 and swag. Like I think they’ve always been signaling it. I agree with you, DeRay. We should take these people very seriously. They mean it. Um. You know, we’ve talked on the pod before about the possibility of us never having another free and fair election in the US again. Um. And I this country in the next two or three years is going to feel so unstable that I think that they are hopeful that people will embrace the devil they know in Trump. And it it, you know, that’s how FDR ended up with a third term before we amended the constitution, right? Was because it was the height of the Great Depression. Um. There was, you know, there was World War II and people were just like, he is doing his best. We are moving in the right direction as a country, and like we don’t want to swap horses midstream. And so I think we might see more like people and more citizens say it’s not ideal, but it’s the right thing so that we don’t have further um uncertainty and we don’t experience further destabilization. Um.
DeRay Mckesson: You think that?
Sharhonda Bossier: Let him, I do. I do.
DeRay Mckesson: Oh no Sharhonda.
Sharhonda Bossier: I do or or the court will have some weird uh you know, interpretation of our constitution that will read two terms as two consecutive terms, you know.
DeRay Mckesson: Yes. I think that’s more likely than–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: –people choosing this man again.
Sharhonda Bossier: I I don’t know. I think we have a lot of evidence that people are comfortable with him and what he’s doing.
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t know.
Myles E. Johnson: Wait, is the disagreement happening because you don’t think there are people who would vote for Trump for a third term?
Sharhonda Bossier: I think people will. I think people will say it’s not ideal. We know him. We’re in the middle of a lot. Everything feels uncertain. Let’s choose the guy we know.
Myles E. Johnson: But are you saying that you don’t think that people will do that DeRay, or are you saying that you think the courts will block that from being a possibility?
DeRay Mckesson: I think the last poll that I saw is that he is more unpopular than he’s ever been. Which is why they are doing all of this stuff around gerrymandering, ending mail in ballots, da da da. Because he is trying to figure out how to get the numbers back if they could pull off a third thing? So I think that they might be able to do it mathematically just which is why they are like reengineering the voting map. But I think that the the impact of him has been so crazy that some of the groups that supported him last like I think the only people supporting him now hardcore are like the very avowed white supremicists, but I don’t think he’s getting the Hispanic vote like he got last time. I think they’ll be a set of people that he got last time that I don’t think he’s gonna get again. I’m happy to be wrong. But I don’t think that’s that’s that’s why I think they are over doing it or like doing it as much as they need to to just change the voting options. Because I don’t think he has the numbers if the map stays the same.
Myles E. Johnson: Got it. Um I think I was so um again and sometimes its like its I like will watch stuff kind of like symbolically. Um. Before I kind of digest it like politically or intellectually. And it was so interesting hearing Steve Bannon who is a born from Virginia with his Southern accent talk to this British reporter. And it was like, just hear listening to the voices interact with each other, its like here is like the son of of of colonization talking to like the grandmother of colonization just like with the voices. And her being so like like you kind of could tell like she was a little bit shocked she was a little she was trying to like keep her composure. Um. But its almost like there’s this kind of like weird uh out of control son that uh that old school colonization has birthed, and now you’re trying to like kind of like put the toothpaste back in the um tooth tube and it was just it was just like interesting to hear like kind of hear those dynamics to me. Specifically when I think about um where accents come from, and and how Southern accents derive from British accents, blah blah blah. Um. I think anything is possible. Again I love my knitting cult lady, and I think that one thing about when people are under the uh the blanket of cult influence is anything is possible. So that it doesn’t matter if we are talking about the rapture, or we’re talking about the third term. If people if people if people are believing it, so um it would just be too ignorant for me to to really try to predict what’s going to happen. But I’m fascinated about what like if this if this could happen. Because it and again it would show it would show how weak a lot of the norms that we think were keeping us together are um but I am prepared so 2028 for me is is is when he said that I was like oh well thats my deadline to get out. Um. You know. And and its scary but I do think that that is a definitely a possibility. [music break]
DeRay Mckesson: Hey you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
Sharhonda Bossier: Well, speaking of our government, and how it is opperating or not. As you all know, we are in the midst of a government shut down. Um. Which is impacting many things across the country. But uh one of the um impacts has been uh that states are starting to signal that come November, uh they will be unable to continue to provide SNAP benefits to their um to their constituents, to their residents. And so officials from several states and agencies have said that um a large swathe of people um will lose their benefits from SNAP which is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. Um. Its completely funded by the federal government, um so New Jersey, Texas, Illinois, Oklahoma, California, Pennsylvania, New York, Missouri, and Minnesota uh have issued warnings and then uh Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, and Illinois have said directly that uh benefits will not be payed in November. We had on this pod a long conversation about SNAP a few episodes ago and Myles asked both me and DeRay sort of what we thought the average SNAP benefit was and we were both wrong. Um. So just so that you all know, right, the average SNAP benefit in in a fiscal year is about $332 a month per househhold or $177 per person. Um. That is less than $6 in food assistane per day. Um. And I just want to sort of bring that to the pod, one so that people will know that this is happening. And that its on people’s radar. That we are thinking about how we engage in mutual aid and support our neighbors. Um. And also again because y’all know I think in rap lyrics, the first thing that came to me is that um, Freeway verse on What we do, where he says, if my sneaks start leaning and the heat stops working, and my heat start working, I’m a rob me a person. And I just think about what happens when people are–
DeRay Mckesson: You are a hip hop-ologist.
Myles E. Johnson: Okay. Okay.
Sharhonda Bossier: I just think about like what happens when people are this desperate and the little bit of safety net we have is continuing to erode. So yeah. Wanted to bring it to the pod.
Myles E. Johnson: Michael Eric Dyson you’ve been stormed by Sharhonda. [laughter] Sharhonda the boss.
DeRay Mckesson: And Ari Melber, who also makes a lot of hip hop references.
Sharhonda Bossier: Oh yeah that’s right. Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: So let me zoom out with uh um with Food Stamps, remember that Food Stamps are an entitlement program, so if you qualify you get money for them. That is different than what people call welfare which is a block grant, uh if you qualify and the money runs out, you don’t get any more. But food stamps is a entitlement program. And a hundred percent of what people get in their food stamps cards comes from the federal government, the cost of giving out food stamps so like the paperwork all that stuff, that’s what your state is paying for. So they’ll be no money, there’s no budget so there will be no money. I do I am really impressed with the collective wisdom of Black people in this moment to not give Trump easy wins. Like it feels like he’s goading Black people to come to the street, a pretext for martial law, like da da da da. So when I see the No Kings thing, and then its just no Black people out there. Like just I didn’t see any Black people really. You know, we all know that if Black people are going outside that would be a pretext for the police to be crazy. But its all these white people outside all of a sudden. And they’re not gonna tear gas and beat up hordes of only white people. Like that doesn’t serve his purpose. So uh you know I think the food stamp thing will be wild. I am I was just talking to my barber today about this. I am surprised that more people aren’t sort of angry at Trump for stuff. But this will reach a lot more people so I’m interested in this. The healthcare stuff, you know people are about to get kicked off Obamacare and they you know I’m just confused why people aren’t more mad about that. But so I’m interested in that I think that’ll be a thing and you know you might remember that he also did the single biggest decrease to food banks in the history of our great country. So when food stamps run out, people have been like oh they’ll go to food banks. You’re like they won’t go to food banks. Because the food banks are not a thing as much as they used to be. The third thing I’ll say and I did this, I gave a talk on Wednesday um and one of the things that I asked people is what is oh do you all know this? This is a quiz for Myles and Sharhonda. Uh how many miles away from the American border does ICE have the power to patrol? Like the legal authority from the entire border. It is a hundred miles uh from the American border, and then what fraction of people live within a hundred miles of the American border? It’s one third, two third, one half, or one fourth.
Myles E. Johnson: One third?
DeRay Mckesson: It is two thirds of the American people.
Myles E. Johnson: Oh wow.
DeRay Mckesson: Live within a hundred miles of the American border.
Myles E. Johnson: Wow.
Sharhonda Bossier: Because the north and the south border.
DeRay Mckesson: Because the north, so you forget like Chicago is actually the the northern border right? People–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: This is why Trump isn’t even threatening the middle of the country because ICE can’t uh arrest people in the middle of the country. But ICE can arrest within a hundred miles of the American border and this is another example of like you know people didn’t when we did the hundred mile thing people were like oh they just thought about Mexico. And you’re like no no, a hundred miles is a lot of space, when you put it around the entire country which is why ICE is wreaking havoc, so–
Sharhonda Bossier: Well why the hell are they in LA?
DeRay Mckesson: It’s a hundred miles from I think the yeah I can show you the map, I think it is a hundred miles inland.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mmm.
DeRay Mckesson: We’ll see. I’ll check. When the next break comes. I’m kidding.
Myles E. Johnson: I mean. This is not necessarily the presidential team that is too worried about rules and laws so I’m sure if its 150 they still coming to tag your ass.
Sharhonda Bossier: It’s 130 from my house to the San Ysidro border crossing. So.
Myles E. Johnson: I’m sure they will still tag your ass.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s a hundred air miles within a US external boundary. Thats what the definition is.
Sharhonda Bossier: Wow. Okay.
Myles E. Johnson: It’s gonna be interesting, this one, I hate to use the word excite me, but um, A, mutual aid uh anything you can do to help people who are in your community who might be hurting, please do those things before I say what I’m about to say. But I’m also a little bit excited about uh the reaction to it for lack of better words because to DeRay’s point, we haven’t necessarily got anything that is actually effected the same people who voted him in. And I feel like this is one of those moments where of course there are going to be uh Black folks harmed and there’s gonna be people who had nothing to do with President Trump harmed but there’s gonna be a lot of people who are effected who do have who are all wrapped up in um Trump. And um I saw somebody tweet, I wish I remembered their um their Twitter handle. But um, they said, uh we’re gonna see if if racists in America despise hunger, or love white supremacy more. Like we’re gonna begin to see certain things cracking and I do think it takes takes this to DeRay’s point around um Obama care. Which I think is awful. Like I think that Obama’s a failure, I do not understand why Democrats people on the left uh even cling to it. I think it is just has not has not done well and and I think it should be relinquished, but I think so many people had already made the decisions that this kind of uh crackdown is gonna make them make, if that makes sense. So, so many people had already decided I can’t afford health insurance so it doesn’t effect them.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: These were decisions that people made while Biden was in office, and I think something like SNAP something like food stamps is something that can really effect the daily lives of the people who are no assurance getting their food stamps you know what I mean? And and watching Fox News, look I think this might disrupt their their daily racist lives. And um not to say there’s gonna be a huge miracle that happens, but I am curious as to what the response is gonna be. Um. And I think that’s probably the Democrat’s game plan, again, I think the Democrats are like we’re not going to move more left, we’re not going to um get any more radical in what we’re doing. We’re just gonna make the pain uh uh be more felt so we’re a clear relief to that. Which we’ll see if that works. I don’t think its gonna work. Because I think most people are in a cult. [laugh] [music break].
DeRay Mckesson: Hey you’re listening to Pod Save the People. Stay tuned, there’s more to come.
[AD BREAK]
DeRay Mckesson: So switching gears lets talk about George Santos, George Santos was a scammer. Got convicted of scamming, he was in Congress. He gotta he got a sentence. And Trump just pardoned him. Uh. Big time top tier scammer and the scam getting out was even better than the scam going in and so [laughter]. But what I think is really interesting about um about Santos and I didn’t know that Santos was actually writing while incarcerated. The South Shore Press was publishing some of Santos’ writings. I just want to read some of it to you. Because I am fascinated by it and it is said that these writings are what compelled Trump to pardon him. “They put me in the special housing unit at FCI [?] and then treated me like I’d become invisible. On april 28th, when I was told I was being moved to the SHU, the first thing out of my mouth was urgent, I need my inhaler. An inhaler is not a luxury, it is life. I kept saying it as the hours crawled by. Each officer who passed my cell offered the same hollow reply, we’re on it. Words without action are cruelty dressed in procedure. The anxiety tightened like a fist around my chest. Breathing became a battle, still they ignored me. By the morning of Augut 29th, thirty hours of terror, a night I will not forget. The warden or deputy finally came by. I told them plainly about the inhaler and the panic I was experiencing. I’m on it, they said. Two hours later, while I was undergoing a psyciatric evaluation. An officer had heard my earlier pleas acted in 20 minutes, he had the inhaler in hand. That mercy arrived too late to erase that I had been treated as if my existance, my health, and my very breath were optional. The neglect did not stop.” So he goes on and on and uh another really great sentence to remember in this [?] I’ve been stripped of almost everything that helped me whether this chapter, phone calls with loved ones have been cut off, emails to family have been blocked. Visits, rare sacred windows when a person can feel human again have been taken away. Twice a month and on holidays as if punishment were protection. I sometimes feel the life leaving my body, a slow leaking of hope, I won’t pretend otherwise. But I’m not finished fighting. This is more than a personal grievance it is a warning to a system comfortable with saying the right words while ignoring the right action. I just had to read, there’s more there, but I had to read it, because it is so fascinating to me there’s a set of people who do not need to be incarcerated who realize this is all bad. This is just a bad, putting people in cages is a bad thing. That if you thought the consequence was separation from general society this is the worst way to do it, is the way we are doing it. Like there’s no upside, it’s not a good version, it’s just bad. And then you know, there’s I read this and I both am like you are absolutely right. This is a dehumanizing experience. And the privilege with which you write it is like how dare they do this to me. Not even how they do this to the other people, but you’re like, how dare this happen to me alone.
Myles E. Johnson: I definitely think Eric Garner haunted his chat GPT prompt when he wrote that um or generated that. Um. It was interesting, so many with the inhaler and the not breathing, how how that was in such um close relationship with Eric Garner. And you know, it’s it’s just all [bleep] because as soon as he comes out, he’s still pro-Trump helping um uh the Republican Party, helping um a fascist regime. He’s still doing all those same things. And I just um listen, listen, I know a stunt queen when I know a stunt queen. So I know somebody like I can hear when somebody is um uh uh using their situation to get what they want. And if you’re if none of this experience resulted in political uh enlightenment, I know what you were doing. So I don’t want to question if this story even happened, because I know prisons treat people horribly, but I–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: I do wonder the sincerity of anything that he says, and he can really go to hell. Now that you know, like like I’m not yeah, he can go to hell.
Sharhonda Bossier: I thought about the Chrisleys who Trump also pardoned, right? And the father has become like a for real abolitionist, right? Has has for real been like, oh no, it’s people in there who should not be in there or have been in there for way too long given the crime they committed. And it seems like he’s actually been leveraging his platform to like talk about his experience and the experiences of others in ways that seem to be moving people that might not listen to other folks, um which has been interesting, right? I’m thinking about, you know, Mariame Kaba, who always says, like, you are excited when anyone joins the party, even if they come late, you know? And so if Santos is really interested in joining the abolitionist party, I want to welcome him with a degree of excitement. You know?
Myles E. Johnson: I don’t think that nothing about what DeRay what what DeRay spoke said had any abolitionist–
Sharhonda Bossier: Was is legitimate? Okay.
Myles E. Johnson: I think being I think being in prison and saying they treat me bad is not abolitionist thought. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: Correct.
Myles E. Johnson: That is having your eyes open.
DeRay Mckesson: And he clearly wasn’t like they treating us bad.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: He was clearly like they’re treating me bad.
Sharhonda Bossier: Fair.
Myles E. Johnson: They’re treating me bad.
Sharhonda Bossier: Fair.
Myles E. Johnson: And that’s what that’s where it’s coming from. To me, the only time any of this is useful is when somebody sees that they’re getting treated bad. Then they connect it with people with less power around them, are being treated bad.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: And then once you get out of prison, to me, what I’ve seen and heard people be illuminated on is that you figure out that yes, prison is bad, but we’re in our own type of societal prison once I’m out of prison too. There’s there are remnants–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yes.
Myles E. Johnson: –of prison prison culture in American culture that I want to dismantle too. That what’s that that makes it abolition. Getting an inhaler, get not getting an inhaler, makes an abolitionist not. [laughter]
Sharhonda Bossier: I’m hopeful, I’m hopeful he’ll start connecting the dots. But I hear you I mean–
Myles E. Johnson: Kill the hope. Get the rage. [laughter]
DeRay Mckesson: That’s a T-shirt, kill the hope. Get the rage. Is a T-shirt.
Myles E. Johnson: So first of all y’all, I want y’all to come on this journey with me. Because A, I’m not feeling the best so if you hear something in my voice that that’s what it is. But also, um my voice is heavy with a class analysis right now. So [laugh] on this podcast week after week I talk about class and just kind of the the fracturing that I that I been seeing inside of the Black community. And my news this week which has to do with um another Black political uh podcast is um an an an and a a hip hop podcast kind of illustrates that beautifully to me. And that is the Native uh Land pod cast and uh the Joe Budden show podcast. So essentially Marc Lamont Hill is on is on the on the podcast, gets into an argument with QueenzFlip, uh the Native Land podcast sees that sees that content, makes their own content around it, and then inside of it uh says Joe the Joe Budden show and the dumbing down of a of America. There’s a lot of different things because we’re not going to pretend that the Joe Budden podcast isn’t a patriarchal force in our culture. But we’re also–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah for sure.
Myles E. Johnson: We also cannot like just like demonize uh a thing that so many Black people are finding entertainment in. And we also can’t like demonize like I guess like singular Black people but I’m I’m having my own tough time sifting through how I really feel about all of this. But anywho, Joe Budden then responds on the podcast and says you know, we picked up Marc Lamont Hill when y’all wouldn’t. We we we were here saving him and and loving him and y’all have all this to say when you he’s on our podcast, and talking about how he needs to come home this proverbial kinship bullshit home that people talk about. But it was like we’re talking about come home, as if him being around other Black men and and Black women is not home just because they’re not the Black men and Black women you deem him he should be around. So this birthed this kind of this conversation around class um conversation around the academy versus the street. It birthed this conversation around how we imagine ourselves I guess moving forward in the new media ecosystem too that I thought was really interesting where do we just not uh talk to people we don’t agree with who are in the Black space. If we think you know, I use the term minstrelsy, if we feel as though people are engaging in digital minstrelsy does that mean that we do not engage with them? Or we ignore them or we try to muffle them? Or do we try to try to interupt those spaces? Do we try to um engage those spaces etc etc? And I just thought the response was just so interesting. And I don’t know it was hard for me to not just kind of zoom out because I’ve been talking about class inside of the Black community so much, so I don’t really have a side, I I can totally sit with I wanna I do want to be clear that Angela Rye has apologized, since that moment. But I did just want to zoom out because I have been talking about that kind of like class fracturing, and I thought this was such a interesting tabloid moment. That kind of illustrates what I’ve been talking about for so long. Yeah I have not come up with any idea that I think we’re in a bad place, if I’m being honest. Like so, it’s hard for me to come up with any any ideas around it because I do think the fracturing has happened so much that its its beyond repair, and even when I look at Native Land podcast, and that they just got um Bakari Sellers to be on the podcast whose taken AIPAC money, who is a part of like the kind of neo liberal movement that I that I accuse of being responsible for um for the the current downfall of of Black media and Black political power. I see that Native Land podcast as a type of digital minstrelsy. I see um what they’re doing as um as performing activism and Black power but still benefitting from white supremacy or or or platforming people who are so um dire to our cause so I think that everybody is participating in it. You know? And it just it and we’re just kind of deciding what mask we want to um wear so that is the that’s the news. Its its a little bit more gossipy um I’m sorry that I didn’t have like a clear critique on it, because I think that we’re working through it. And I think there’s really not a critique to be had because I just think that’s the reality that we’re in right now. The reality is um where in a segragated by class, Black culture, and we’re seeing the results of that when we do want to do things like vote or mobilize of how separated um we are. But um yeah I want to see did y’all hear the news, what was y’alls thoughts about it? Um DeRay I know that some of your favorite people in this have been mentioned in this story so I’m so excited to hear what you think too.
DeRay Mckesson: I like most people in the Native Land podcast. Um. But uh the person who said this is uh run of the mill for how they engage other Black people. There’s like a self righteousness about position in society, and in class, that I think can emboldens them to continue to make statements like this and then apologize. So like this is this to me seems like a pattern and not an anomoly. But that not withstanding, I think it is interesting I think what’s true about this at least was there was a class of people and I know them. They are some of them are our friends, who got to speak for, represent, be the voice of, were the consultants around Black people. And they so there’s a part of Angela’s comments that it makes sense to me how and why she said it because for so long, that worked. Like that the narrataive worked, the like you know the there’s a there’s a way and a place you go to speak about Black people and a da da da. Like I think that worked for a long time, I think we’re in a moment where there’s a real schism between like you know there’s a group of people who a huge group of people who are not gonna have food stamps. And–
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: It’s not our people but [?].
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: They not on the Native Land podcast. They not they not they are not they are certainly not presented on the podcast and I think there is something about Charlamagne and Joe’s podcast and clearly they are rich so like whatever but its like I do think that they and you can criticize Charlamagne and Joe frankly endlessly there are a lot of things you could say about them but what they do have is their pulse on the everyday. They got that down, they sort of they understand like what people are talking about and what the issues are that people are talking about. Not what MSNBC’s talking about but what like aunt and uncles are talking about. And I am always convinced organizers whoever gets aunts and uncles will always win. So Angela’s comment was interesting to me because she’s [?] of aunts and uncles and come to the [?], you’re like that is just the [?], that’s a that’s an interesting thing to do in a moment where like the infrastructure around is falling apart. And the last thing I’ll say, I’ve talked about the jail a lot. I think about the number of people I know who have a lot of politcal power who have just not been in a room with people who don’t make a hundred thousand dollars a year. Like who you know like I or who like earnestly are in community with people who do not share their economic reality, it’s real dicey out here. And they so they start to believe a set of things about the world that are really like that’s your block boo, that is not the world is sort of not experiencing things like this. And I think that that comment just exemplifies it, hence the apology.
Sharhonda Bossier: It’s a lot to unpack and like I feel really conflicted by a lot of it, to be honest, because I think in this moment where Black women are experiencing disproportionately negative impacts around employment etc etc. Right when we’re talking about SNAP benefits, right? We’re talking about and when we talk about Black people who you’re also talking abot Black mothers you know what I mean? And so, there is also like how do you critique someone while also acknowledging their positionality and also acknowledging that sometimes they have leveraged that positionality as a shield. You know? Against critique. Um. Which I think is all kind of messy right now especially when Joe Budden is in the conversation and my God is that man a misogynist. You know what I mean? And so you’re like man you know you out here making me side with Joe Budden girl? Um. Its just its like I its so many complicated and conflicting feelings around that. I also just want to note like we’re also having this conversation on a podcast you know what I mean? And having this conversation uh you know with people who have you know degrees from selective universities and you know uh who enjoy quite a degree of class and professional privilege ourselves and so I also think its important to to name that whew. I do wonder though what like cross class solidarity looks like and as somebody who has acquired class privilege over the course of her own career, like I didn’t inherit it, I often find myself with other Black people who inherited class privilege who feel totally disconnected from me and my lived experience. Right? Like I still have a brother who hits me up and is like can you send me twenty five dollars on cash app? You know what I mean like I’m at the store, right now, and that’s a fundamentally different experience in like proximity to people who are to your point.
Myles E. Johnson: Don’t be telling your brother’s business.
Sharhonda Bossier: He ain’t gonna listen to this podcast. He ain’t gonna know I told y’all. [laughter] But you know, like I I and y’all don’t know which one. Y’all know I got five of them. So–
Myles E. Johnson: Right right.
Sharhonda Bossier: Um. I do think that that there’s something about like that being my reality. Like when I I shared with you all, you know, I had a grandmother who passed last week. Um. When I get off this podcast, I’m gonna be back in Compton, right? With my cousins. Like this is not uh we’re trying to figure out who’s gonna pay for what for the funeral. You know what I mean? So there is something about like that that always reminds me of like I live on the West Side, sure. I have a master’s degree, sure. I earn six figures, sure, right? But the moment we log off from this recording session, I’m gonna be with a whole group of people who don’t. And they remind me all of the time that like some of what I care about, some of what I’m talking about, and most often it’s how I’m talking about it, just doesn’t resonate with them. You know what I mean? And so um trying to figure that out, even like this prop 50 stuff that we were talking about a little bit earlier. You know what I mean? Like my cousins are like, what what box do I check? And like that’s it. And they’re gonna check whatever box I tell them. But that’s it. And you know, I have a cousin who’s got three kids who was like, that’s what he’s focused on right now, right? Is is feeding his three kids. So yeah.
Myles E. Johnson: Something that both of y’all made me think about, um specifically with your honesty around Joe Budden, is like being 100% honest around also why the fracturing’s happening specifically in the media space, right? So a lot of people, I’m thinking about women and queer people in the side of the Black community, have fractured off from talking to Joe Budden’s podcast because we have found those to be dangerous spaces. We have found those to be spaces I couldn’t even imagine me or DeRay on Joe Budden’s podcast, because I think that it has been it it has declared itself without declaring itself a homophobic space.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: Joe follows me on Twitter, just to be clear.
Sharhonda Bossier: Well, he has to, you know, so he can pretend to be yes–
Myles E. Johnson: So I will I hope that I hope that me articulating this pushes something else besides a vanity follow.
DeRay Mckesson: I think I follow him too. Maybe we follow each other.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah. So I think that, and this is again, this is just like showing in like American um so like in social media in general when we think about red pill content, even for the white boys, there has been such a separation because those environments have been hostile, you know? So it’s not just around I think part of the conversation being about class and elitism and academia. I and you know, I talk about that stuff all the time and I and I try to bring those things up all the time, but also those spaces have been hostile. I’m glad to see Mona, who has been on the podcast, who has been openly pro-trans and pro-queer, and I think that’s powerful. And I hope that that gives other people, even people who fit that environment more when I think about like Sexy Lexi or TS Madison or something like that, like who maybe can who can who can ride the wave of of of of of of that room a little bit more. But um but it it it’s not just the elitism, I guess is what I’m trying to say. It’s not just the class, it’s also been open hostility towards Black women and Black queer folks and Black trans folks that um has helped that separation happen.
Sharhonda Bossier: Do you know the what could go wrong podcast? Anyway one of my brother’s best friends also has a podcast. It’s a pretty popular one. Um. And it’s it’s a video podcast. And I get into it with him all the time. Like we just be DMing and I’m like, you shouldn’t have said that. That was wrong. That was homophobic. That was misogynist. Like we just we get into it, right? He is seriously like one of my brother’s closest friends. And I think what I’m reflecting on in that moment, Myles, is like, I love that man. My relationship with [?] is not going anywhere. He feels like a brother to me. And I’m confident in pushing him in our inner personal dynamic. But if you put a mic in front of my face, I don’t know what I would say. And not because I don’t stand by what I believe, but because I would be like, I don’t want to be the less, which to you, Charlamagne’s thing, donkey of the day on the internet, where people are like, I can’t believe that woman sat there and let that man say that to her in her face, right? But it’s like interpersonally, no cameras, no mics. We go in toe-to-toe. And at the end of that, I’m still in relationship with him. We’ve been in relationship most of our lives, you know. Um. And I do think there’s also something about the external scrutiny that prevents a lot of us for from engaging in spaces where we could actually move people and do the real work.
DeRay Mckesson: I think that’s right. I like that. Yeah, the only thing I’d add is I Myles, I agree with you. And I would extend it to say that the fracturing has not only been around issues of identity, but also issues of like political reality and da da so I think about a group of people that I know and have known for a long time where they read on what the issues are, or like even things about the police. Like I’m like, that’s the wrong read. Like I’m not listening to you anymore because I think the way you like see and think about the world is like off. You’re not homophobic and misogynist, but you are barely progressive. You’re like sort of holding on by like a thread, right? Or you still believe in this idea that like I I actually do think you love Black people. You just don’t think there’s a group of them worth your time and energy. I like know Black people who believe that. Who like they’re like, I love them people, but I don’t want to be around them. I don’t want to see them.
Sharhonda Bossier: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t want to eat with them, I don’t want and I’m like– [laugh]
Myles E. Johnson: No, no, no, no, no. I wasn’t saying it like that. I wasn’t saying it like that. I was just I was want to interput like Chris Rock made that popular, who who who got slaps with the oh, there’s Black people and there’s niggas and I feel like we’ve actually adopted that that ethos.
DeRay Mckesson: Yeah, so I think that the fracturing actually is on that line too, where I think you get a there’s a generation of Black people because the internet who have a we were able to scale some version of a political consciousness in a way that I think we could not before. Like we in your videos and da people are just smarter than they they like sort of see the world better. And I think they’re like, I don’t want to hear you talk down on me right now.
Myles E. Johnson: Yeah.
DeRay Mckesson: I don’t want to so I’d rather listen to Joe, because we grew up with misogynistic music and da da like we have sort of had our own filters on misogyny and like we sort of had to take the good out of the mess for a long time.
Sharhonda Bossier: Mm-hmm.
DeRay Mckesson: But I’m like, I don’t wanna be talking you don’t know what this is like. I don’t wanna be talked down on this and I don’t wanna be da da so I think that fracturing is as real as the identity fracturing.
Myles E. Johnson: And it’s not fun. You know what I mean? Like I I I was just watching the documentary on O on Jerry Springer and how they um dethroned Oprah during Jerry Springer’s height and stuff like that. There is an American appetite, Black America or just or just America for uh things that are I don’t want to call Joe Budden’s a podcast trashy because I don’t feel that way about his podcast. But there’s a certain types of talks and conversations and and and entertainment that does better. Like if I wasn’t doing um like we’ve had discussions offline around how can we make the podcast lighter and stuff like that. These these are heavier conversations to do, and it’s easier to, uh we’re vegetables. You know what I mean? We are we are we are not Debbie cakes. And sometimes, you know, you’re never gonna beat people who are serving Debbie cakes and french fries because people like that. But people are you you gotta put all types of sauce for people to down their broccoli. So I think that’s a part of it too. [music break]
DeRay Mckesson: Well, that’s it. Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Save the People this week. And don’t forget to follow us at Pod Save the People and Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. And if you enjoyed this episode of Pod Save the People, consider dropping us a review on your favorite podcast app. And we will see you next week. Pod Save the People is a production of Crooked Media. It’s produced by AJ Moultrié and mixed by Charlotte Landes, executive produced by me, and special thanks to our weekly contributors Myles E. Johnson and Sharhonda Bossier. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [music break]
