In This Episode
- Eight people were killed and at least seven others were wounded Saturday after a gunman opened fire at an outlet mall in Allen, Texas – making it the 200th mass shooting of the year, and the second deadliest since the Monterey Park, California attack in January.
- King Charles III was officially crowned Saturday as Britain’s first new reigning monarch in 70 years. Royal watcher Kristen Meinzer tells us how Charles’ coronation was different from when his mother, Queen Elizabeth II, ascended to the throne, and how public opinion of the monarchy has changed since then.
- In headlines: CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky will step down at the end of June, seven horses died at the Churchill Downs racetrack in the days ahead of the Kentucky Derby, and two American couples were busted for trying to bring in over 650 pounds of Fruit Roll-ups into Israel.
- Gun Violence Archive – https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
- Moms Demand Action – https://momsdemandaction.org/
- What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcast
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Juanita Tolliver: It’s Monday, May 8th. I’m Juanita Tolliver.
Josie Duffy Rice: And I’m Josie Duffy Rice. And this is What A Day.
Juanita Tolliver: On today’s show, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen isn’t mincing words as the U.S. approaches its default deadline. Plus, the deaths of seven race horses ahead of the Kentucky Derby raises questions about the future of the sport.
Josie Duffy Rice: But first in yet another mass shooting. Eight people were killed and seven others wounded on Saturday in a shooting at an outlet mall in Allen, Texas. It is the second deadliest shooting of the year thus far after the Monterey Park, California, shooting in January. Just a word of warning. We’re going to be talking about a very violent act which includes some graphic details from an eyewitness. So if you’re sensitive to hearing about these things, you may want to skip ahead by just a few minutes.
Juanita Tolliver: Yeah, it’s heartbreaking and it marks the 200th mass shooting of the year. But can you break down what we know about what happened?
Josie Duffy Rice: Yeah, well, first of all, 200 is just an unfathomable number.
Juanita Tolliver: Sickening.
Josie Duffy Rice: But what we know right now is that around 3:30 p.m. local time, people at the mall reported hearing multiple shots and many people said they hid in back rooms or in storage spaces before being evacuated. The shooter, a 33 year old man, had an AR-15 rifle and at least one other weapon on him, as well as multiple other weapons in his car. He was killed by law enforcement who happened to be at the scene for a separate incident.
Juanita Tolliver: And do we know anything about the motivations behind this?
Josie Duffy Rice: It seems like right now authorities are investigating whether the shooter was, quote, “motivated by right wing extremism,” that’s according to CNN. So he was reportedly found wearing clothes with an RWDS symbol which apparently can mean right wing death squad. Law enforcement sources stated that he had, quote, “an extensive social media presence that included neo-Nazi and white supremacist related posts.” But beyond those initial reports, which haven’t been officially confirmed, we don’t know anything else.
Juanita Tolliver: Now, you mentioned that eight people were killed and seven people were wounded. What do we know about the victims so far?
Josie Duffy Rice: Yeah Juanita, well no names have been released yet, but what we know is that the victims ranged from age five to age 61. And witnesses described a horrifying scene. So warning some graphic description forthcoming. One man, Steven Spainhouer said he arrived before police and tried to administer aid to the victims, quote, “The first girl I walked up to was crouched down covering her head in the bushes. So I felt for a pulse, pulled her head to the side and she had no face.” He also helped a child who was hiding beneath their mother’s body. The mother had died. He said, quote, “When I rolled the mother over, he came out, I asked him if he was okay, and he said, my mom is hurt. My mom is hurt.” Hear Spainhouer talking about what happened.
[clip of shooting witness Steven Spainhouer] It was a war zone there. There’s no other way to describe it. There’s no way these people could have survived the assault of those weapons.
Juanita Tolliver: It’s heartbreaking. It’s sickening. It is absolutely traumatizing. Not only what Steven was describing, but the loss of life, the way these children’s lives have either ended or are changed forever by losing their–
Josie Duffy Rice: Yes.
Juanita Tolliver: –loved ones. And–
Josie Duffy Rice: Yep.
Juanita Tolliver: Obviously, this comes after a week of multiple mass shootings. Atlanta, where one person was killed and four were injured. The shooting in Cleveland, Texas, where five people were killed and the Oklahoma shooting last Monday, where six people were killed. What have we heard from officials about all of this?
Josie Duffy Rice: Well, you know, some of it’s kind of predictable. Texas Governor Greg Abbott predictably drew attention away from gun control and said instead that we need to focus on mental health, which, yes, we need to address mental health, too. That’s true, but it’s not either or. We also need to keep people from getting weapons built to kill multiple people in quick succession like there is a very clear way forward here and we’re not taking it. Biden called for more gun control, stating, quote, “Such an attack is too shocking to be so familiar. And yet American communities have suffered roughly 200 mass shootings already this year.” Biden noted that, quote, “The leading cause of death for American kids is gun violence,” and called for, quote, “a bill banning assault weapons and high capacity magazines, enacting universal background checks, requiring safe storage and ending immunity for gun manufacturers.” But we all know that such legislation is unlikely given Republicans in Congress. And in the meantime, we just wait. As one survivor from the Texas shooting told CBS News, if it could happen today, it can happen tomorrow. So all of us are just, you know, living on the edge, waiting for the next mass shooting tomorrow or the next day or the next day. And we just have to hope helplessly that it won’t be us or our kids or our parents or our loved ones. I mean, it’s just a nightmare.
Juanita Tolliver: It’s a nightmare, but it’s not enough to accept this reality. Right.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Juanita Tolliver: And I was skimming the news. I saw a piece talking about how the degrees of separation are narrowing between each of us as humans, because we all know someone who either lost a loved one in a mass shooting or know someone who was harmed by a mass shooting firsthand. And that circle is growing smaller and smaller, like we’ve said multiple times, the 200th mass shooting. And I think we’re barely past 200 days of the year like–
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Juanita Tolliver: That is clearly a problem in this country.
Josie Duffy Rice: Right. That’s such an interesting statistic because it totally makes sense. Eventually, all of us will be touched by this, all of us if we haven’t already. Anyway, uh we’ll keep following this story and we’ll follow the next one and the next one and the next one until there’s real change made, um but that is the latest for now. [music break] Let’s get to some headlines.
Josie Duffy Rice: At least eight people were killed and several others were hurt yesterday after the driver of a Range Rover SUV rammed into a bus stop outside a shelter in Brownsville, Texas. The shelter in question usually assists people experiencing homelessness, but is also housing many migrants. And authorities say most of the victims were originally from Venezuela. As we sat down to record the show at 9:30 p.m. Eastern Sunday, it is not confirmed that the driver intentionally drove into the crowd, but police said he will at least face reckless driving charges once he’s released from the hospital.
Juanita Tolliver: Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen has even more real talk from members of Congress about the approaching debt ceiling crisis. We told you last week that the government is now expected to run out of money to pay its bills as early as June 1st. And unless something is done before that deadline, defaulting on those obligations will have very serious and unprecedented consequences for the global economy. Secretary Yellen told ABC’s This Week that the Treasury has already taken what she called extraordinary measures up to this point and that there were simply quote, “no good options left on the table except to raise the debt limit.”
[clip of secretary Janet Yellen] All I want to say is that it’s Congress’s job to do this. If they fail to do it, we will have an economic and financial catastrophe that will be of our own making. And there is no action that President Biden and the US Treasury can take to prevent that catastrophe.
Juanita Tolliver: President Biden will meet with congressional leaders, including House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, tomorrow to discuss the issue. And just like Janet Yellen said, it is Congress’s job to get this done. So I really hope that meeting is literally a three on one against McCarthy with McConnell even jumping in because this is his job. This is the requirements of the job. So do your fucking job, please. Thanks.
Josie Duffy Rice: Absolutely. Dr. Rochelle Walensky, who has led the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for the past two years, will step down at the end of June. The announcement came down on Friday, and while she didn’t cite any specific reasons for her departure, Walensky did say that with the National Public Health emergency ending this week and many COVID restrictions already lifted, now is as good a time as any to make the transition. But the news caught many public health officials and experts by surprise, though many agree she walked into a very, very difficult job when she was first tapped to lead the CDC by then President elect Biden at the end of 2020, COVID-19 had already killed nearly 400,000 Americans, all while the Trump administration seemed to be doing everything in its power to undermine the agency’s ability to do its job. Unfortunately, the coronavirus itself is sticking around, though hospitalizations and deaths are at their lowest point in months. The virus is still killing about 1000 people a week in the US.
[clip of unidentified sportscaster] Mage just taken the lead here. And it’s coming to the final 16th. And it is going to be Mage to win the Kentucky Derby.
Juanita Tolliver: You just heard the final call for the 149th running of the Kentucky Derby. And many race fans are breathing a collective sigh of relief. Not because it was a close race, but because all the horses managed to cross the finish line alive. Over the past week, seven horses have died at the Churchill Downs racetrack in the lead up to Derby Day on Saturday. At least five of them were euthanized after sustaining grave injuries during training or on the track itself. The deaths of two other horses are under investigation. That has led to renewed calls from animal rights advocates who want to ban the sport outright. According to the Jockey Club, which oversees the registry for thoroughbred race horses in the U.S. and Canada, over 7000 horses have died during competition from 2009 to 2021. That number includes 42 horses that were euthanized during the 2019 race season at California’s Santa Anita racetrack.
Josie Duffy Rice: That’s a lot of horses.
Juanita Tolliver: A lot of fucking horses.
Josie Duffy Rice: 7000 horses is like too many horses. Okay. Switching gears now to my state of Georgia, where at least eight of the fake Republican electors involved in the scheme to throw the 2020 election results here for Donald Trump have accepted immunity deals. That was revealed in court filings by their attorney on Friday, who said her clients reached a deal with Fulton County DA Fani Willis last month. Willis, of course, is leading the investigation into Trump and his allies attempts to throw his narrow election loss in Georgia, which involved getting 16 so-called Republican activists together to pose as state electors so they could drop fake certificates vouching for Trump’s victory and send them off to be counted by Congress on January 6th, 2021. This is a harebrained scheme if I’ve ever seen one. Giving Scooby Doo [laughter] giving, like what’s the coyote in the Looney Tunes? Just like with the anvil?
Juanita Tolliver: Oh Roadrunner and coyote?
Josie Duffy Rice: Roadrunner. Yeah, Roadrunner and coyote. It’s giving just like, the dumbest plan. Just the dumbest plan. All of this could be a sign that Willis’s investigation of Trump himself is moving forward, she said late last month that she will announce whether to bring charges against Trump sometime this summer.
Juanita Tolliver: I can’t wait. Bring them on. [laughing] [?] Especially if immunity deals are flying off the shelf like this. They got to be spilling some type of good tea.
Josie Duffy Rice: It can’t be good news for them. It cannot be good news for them.
Juanita Tolliver: And a cautionary tale for any aspiring candy smugglers out there. Israeli customs officials recently busted two American couples who were apparently trying to bring in over 650 lbs. of fruit roll-ups. Fruit roll-ups?
Josie Duffy Rice: So crazy.
Juanita Tolliver: Like what? Okay. For the record, the stretchy sugary sheets aren’t illegal in Israel, but they’re becoming very hard to find, in part because so many people want to try a viral snack hack that’s making the rounds on TikTok. For the uninitiated, you basically wrap up a scoop of ice cream with a fruit roll up sheet, which, if you were a kid in the nineties, will probably give you a flash back to recess and an ice cream headache. I mean, I’m here for it. This is my dream. I really want to try this. We should do a taste test on the next show, Josie, because the crunch is delectable.
Josie Duffy Rice: I’m not going to lie to you. I have already ordered some–
Juanita Tolliver: Yeah! [laughing]
Josie Duffy Rice: –fruit roll-ups after hearing this story.
Juanita Tolliver: Let’s do it. The huge demand for Fruit Roll-Ups in Israel has apparently created something of a black market with a single roll reportedly going for as much as $6. I mean, I’m not paying that much. I hope you didn’t pay that much in your order Josie.
Josie Duffy Rice: I did not. I did not pay $6 per fruit roll-up. I have not gone that far off the deep end.
Juanita Tolliver: All right. It’s not clear if the detained Americans got their stash back or if their coveted contraband ended up in the trash. But the incident did lead Israel’s health ministry to remind folks to consider healthier alternatives. Let’s be real. This is a healthy alternative for us ’90 kids.
Josie Duffy Rice: It is.
Juanita Tolliver: We know [laughter] that this counts as a food group in and of itself.
Josie Duffy Rice: It is.
Juanita Tolliver: And it’s delectable like but–
Josie Duffy Rice: It’s called fruit baby.
Juanita Tolliver: They were clearly trying to deliver to the masses. I do think 650 lbs. was a little bit of overkill. Like, there’s no way you’re getting that through customs.
Josie Duffy Rice: It was probably a little bit too much. However, I would like to say total ’90s kids probably ate about 650 lbs. of Fruit Roll-Ups over the years.
Juanita Tolliver: I did.
Josie Duffy Rice: Yeah.
Juanita Tolliver: I did.
Josie Duffy Rice: And we turned out generally okay.
Juanita Tolliver: I mean, we’re better than okay Josie–
Josie Duffy Rice: I–
Juanita Tolliver: Look at us, look at us.
Josie Duffy Rice: We’re great. [laughter] I’m sure there are people in my life who are like, yeah, you could have done without that. [laughter]
Juanita Tolliver: Bet.
Josie Duffy Rice: Yeah.
Juanita Tolliver: And those are the headlines. We’ll be back after a short ad break to give Britain’s royal family the side eye they deserve.
Juanita Tolliver: One event this weekend that we couldn’t avoid, no matter how much we tried and believe me, we tried was the antiquated colonial tradition of crowning the next British monarch, namely King Charles the third. That’s right. He is official official, though legally, he didn’t even need an expensive coronation because he was official as soon as Queen Elizabeth died. Nonetheless, on Saturday, we got wall to wall coverage of the coronation, the arrest of protesters and a half empty balcony featuring King Charles’s slimmed down royal family. Naturally, Charles handpicked his grandson’s fourth birthday for the occasion, and he proceeded to waste one million pounds to plan his own redundant party at a time when the UK economy is worse than murky. It was giving F them kids. And F every one of my subjects who was suffering. And for anyone wondering, yes, Prince Harry was there, though he caught the next flight out to get away from his family. And honestly, no one can blame him. Not to mention, Charles wasn’t the only one crowned on Saturday, but the infamous sidechick Camilla, was also crowned, becoming the queen of England. And when I tell you, she was beyond pleased with herself and her decades long campaign to sit on the throne. I am not exaggerating. It came through every single time she smirked at the cameras and looked at Charles like she couldn’t even believe this was happening. So it was truly something to behold Josie.
Josie Duffy Rice: I saw just clips of it and I felt like everybody looked very weirdly solemn/bummed [laughter] for the event. Like, I was like, isn’t this y’all’s big little bit like you’re wearing a crown. I don’t know. Also, I was feeling for Harry because I was like, it’s embarrassing for your dad to wear a crown. It’s just embarrassing. It’s objectively cringe.
Juanita Tolliver: In effect the whole thing was lacking. Right. [laughing] Like I feel like–
Josie Duffy Rice: Right.
Juanita Tolliver: –that’s what we can just put this as.
Josie Duffy Rice: I would give it a strong C plus.
Juanita Tolliver: Well, to dig into the legacy of colonization, all of the stolen jewels that were on display and the rise of sidechicks, all of which was in the front of my mind during the coronation. I had the pleasure of talking to Kristen Meinzer, royal watcher and friend of WAD, to break it all down. And I promise you, we kept it 100. I started off by asking Kristen what the atmosphere was like at the Abbey and who flew in for the coronation.
Kristen Meinzer: First and foremost, I will tell you that I agree with you when I think about colonization, when I think about structural racism, institutional racism. I certainly think about the royal family. And it was not completely absent from my thoughts during this coronation. But to answer your question, who was there? So when Queen Elizabeth was ascending the throne when her coronation took place, she had 8000 people there. But Charles wanted something that was a little bit more scaled down. So he had about, you know, 2000 people instead. Still a lot of people.
Juanita Tolliver: Still, a casual garden party, you know. [laughter]
Kristen Meinzer: And there were heads of state, royalty from around the world. There were his own family members. But as far as his family members go, I think the ones that people were most looking out for, of course, were Prince Harry, who was there. And we knew in advance that his wife, Meghan Markle, was not going to be with him. A lot of people were looking out for Harry, and Harry looked totally fine. He carried himself well, as he does. He’s used to making public appearances. And, of course, another member of the royal family people were looking out for was Prince Andrew, who was there as well.
Juanita Tolliver: Right. And for our listeners who may not be familiar, this is the guy whose mother paid off a large settlement for some sexual assault allegations involving children.
Kristen Meinzer: And Jeffrey Epstein. Yes, a lot of people throw Harry under the bus of being the greatest scandal of the century for this family. But I’m still going to say Andrew is. I’m sorry, choosing to step back from a royal family that does not protect you or your wife from abuse, from surveillance, from racism to me is not a scandal, that’s self-preservation. Meanwhile, Andrew, what he did is a real scandal and frankly, a crime.
Juanita Tolliver: Right. So let’s take it back to the day of on the ground in the United Kingdom, because before the coronation even began, apparently there were multiple arrests of protesters. So not everyone was excited about this event. How would you summarize the public opinion and response to King Charles, the third being crowned as king? And how is that different from Queen Elizabeth’s coronation back in 1953?
Kristen Meinzer: Yes, there were dozens of arrests and a very different mood than when Queen Elizabeth ascended the throne. Queen Elizabeth was very young. She was in her mid-twenties. She was, lest we forget, never supposed to be queen. It was only because her uncle fell in love with Wallis Simpson and he chose to step back. And then Queen Elizabeth’s father was suddenly king. And that meant that Queen Elizabeth became the next in line to the throne. And when this coronation happened, unfortunately, Queen Elizabeth was very, very young. But that’s sad for her personally, it also was positive in lots of ways for the royal family because a lot of their popularity is really similar to the popularity of Hollywood stars. It’s most high. It’s most vibrant when they’re young. When we can project our imagination onto their youth, onto their families, onto their romances and so on. And the fact that she was very young, it was a totally different time. And it was also a time where there was still a certain level of reverence when it came to authority figures. We live in a different time now. There is no reverence for Charles. We all know about tampon gate.
Juanita Tolliver: Oh, my God. And Netflix did right to remind us. [laughing]
Kristen Meinzer: Yes. [laughing] And speaking of tampon gate, it’s not just that the press has lost respect for Charles historically. It’s that Charles has made much larger missteps than his mother ever made, including his affair with Camilla, where he said he would like to be a tampon and be able to live inside her forever. And he also has had some other issues as far as his parenting as a father. Does he do enough to stand up for his children, particularly his younger son, Harry? You know, his record has not been great. On top of that cash for titles, which is something that’s happened in the last year. There is not the same celebration and respect for Charles. He doesn’t have youth and glamor on his side. He has a mistress who is now the queen. And Queen Elizabeth did not have any of that same kind of baggage.
Juanita Tolliver: And I want to explore the different time and everything we know about Charles with two questions. All right. First question, rapid rire. If you had to guess, how many people would you say hate watched his coronation versus watched it with glee?
Kristen Meinzer: [laughing] I don’t think a lot of people hate watched it because it was two solid hours, not including the lead up and then the parading through the streets. But I’m sure a few people just wanted to see the highlights. You know what was cringey, what was good, what was bad. The fact of the matter is, this is not the kind of coronation that people were excited about in the same way as they were for Elizabeth. A YouGov poll a few weeks ago found that only 32% of Britons wanted to even pay for this.
Juanita Tolliver: And a coronation is not a legally required event to happen yet the decision was still made to spend, what, more than £100 million pounds on this. So like, what do you think the public response is to that reality and the contrast of a struggling economy in the UK and then this splurge in spending from the king?
Kristen Meinzer: Yeah, there is a major cost of living crisis happening right now in the UK and frankly across the world. There are people who are trying to decide whether or not to pay to keep their lights on or to buy groceries. Meanwhile, here is this guy covered in jewels.
Juanita Tolliver: Stolen jewels.
Kristen Meinzer: Yes. And who did not have to pay any inheritance tax when his mother died. He is according to a very, very, very conservative estimation by the Guardian, worth nearly £2 billion pounds at this point. So here’s this guy with all of this money, all of this land, all of this wealth, all of these stolen goods, and now the taxpayers are going to pay £100 million pounds to have a parade for him and a ceremony, which isn’t necessary because, frankly, he became king automatically when his mother died.
Juanita Tolliver: Right.
Kristen Meinzer: We did not need this coronation for him to become king. A coronation is much more necessary when somebody is stepping into the role because somebody stepped out of the role. Nobody stepped out of this role. Somebody died. That is a lot of money for people to pay. And it’s not the same as a royal wedding. I celebrated both the royal wedding of William and Kate and the royal wedding of Harry and Meghan. But that was different because the royal family actually footed the bill for most of that. So these are both celebratory events that the family themselves mostly paid for. That brings in so much money from tourists. That’s a different story than this coronation.
Juanita Tolliver: And you mentioned the YouGov poll conducted with BBC showing that young people were questioning whether or not a monarchy was necessary in the UK. So what do you envision as the future under Charles’s role, and will there be anything for William to take over?
Kristen Meinzer: I think Charles has got to make some changes. He has talked about a more scaled back monarchy and it is becoming more scaled back in ways that I think he never planned on before. But I think he also needs to address the issues that are front and center for a lot of people. We don’t live in Elizabeth’s early reign any more. People do want to talk about colonialism. We do want to talk about racism. We want to talk about the ways that the crown became so wealthy. How did they get all of this money? How do they continue to get all of this wealth? Why aren’t they paying inheritance tax? A lot of these issues came to the forefront also last year when William and Kate had their disastrous Caribbean tour. There were protests there. There were terrible photo ops. William and Kate reaching through chain link fences with their–
Juanita Tolliver: I remember that. Yeah.
Kristen Meinzer: –alabaster skin, touching little Brown children, and the people they were visiting made it clear, we don’t want you as our overlords.
Juanita Tolliver: Right.
Kristen Meinzer: We don’t want the system to continue. And so I think that we’re getting to a point where people are being more and more vocal about this desire to have a different kind of relationship, to have accountability. And to his credit, Charles has recently agreed to research that is now being done on the history that the royals have with slavery.
Juanita Tolliver: Well I I doubt we have to dig deep so like [laughter] for real.
Kristen Meinzer: But the fact that he’s agreed to something that we all know, frankly, from the history books actually has been a part of the royal family that continues to be a part of the classist, racist colonial systems that are still here. And unfortunately, Charles, ascending the throne also just puts a finer point on it, because for him, for his son, for his grandson, possibly longer, we are going to have minimum three generations of white men on the throne.
Juanita Tolliver: Right.
Josie Duffy Rice: That just makes it all the more clear what the system is, who’s in power, who gets to have power historically speaking. And at least with Queen Elizabeth, there was a little something different there it’s like, here’s a woman, but we don’t even have that anymore.
Juanita Tolliver: That was my conversation with Kristen Meinzer, royal watcher and friend of WAD and I’m so grateful that she made that point about Andrew and all of his shame, rather lack thereof. But apparently that’s who Charles respects more than his own son, who prioritized his mental health and his family. [music break] That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a review. Resist the urge to join a Looney Tunes scheme against democracy and tell your friends to listen.
Josie Duffy Rice: And if you’re into reading and not just a list of countries that have gained independence from the British Empire like me, What A Day is also a nightly newsletter, so check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Josie Duffy Rice.
Juanita Tolliver: I’m Juanita Tolliver.
[spoken together] And hands off our fruit roll-ups.
Juanita Tolliver: It was Fruit Roll-Ups for me. It was gushers for me.
Josie Duffy Rice: Oh my God.
Juanita Tolliver: It was Lunchables for me.
Josie Duffy Rice: Dunkaroos. I still–
Juanita Tolliver: No! You were a Dunkaroos kid?
Josie Duffy Rice: Oh my God, dunkaroos were so good.
Juanita Tolliver: X. Nope.
Josie Duffy Rice: Oh this is crazy. [laughter] If you’re not a nineties kid, do not listen to this propaganda. Dunkaroos were [laughter] legitimately great. [music break]
Juanita Tolliver: What A Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Bill Lancz. Our show’s producer is Itxy Quintanilla and Raven Yamamoto is our associate producer. Jocey Coffman is our head writer and our senior producer is Lita Martinez. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.