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This week Louis Virtel and guest co-host Ben Mandelker dive into Taylor Swift’s engagement, the Love Island USA reunion, Alien: Earth, legendary albums, Snoop Dogg’s reaction to Lightyear, and Project Runway. Matt Smith also joins to discuss his new role in Caught Stealing. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel And we’re back with an all new episode of Keep It. I’m Louis Virtel. I remain a host of Keep it. And today on the show, we have one of my longest LA friends, first of all. But second of all, a podcaster in his own right and a fabulous podcaster. He’s the host of the Watch What Crappens podcast. Nobody knows more about Bravo than this man. He’s like the most trusted Bravo knower, I think in television history. History will remember you. It is Ben Mandelker. Welcome to Keep It!

 

Ben Mandelker Thank you so much, Louis. I mean, I feel so honored to have found my lane in life, which is knowing all sorts of information about about trashy awful people. This is so special to me.

 

Louis Virtel Well, it’s interesting that you say that because obviously your reality TV knowledge probably precedes Bravo. Was there a specific reality TV show that got you into the fray in the first place?

 

Ben Mandelker Um, into Bravo, it was Real Housewives of Orange County. I mean, the, my, my origin story is that I came to LA to be a writer and, um, that didn’t really quite work out. You had all these like sort of fits and starts and fits and starts. Well, there’s only like six writers all together anymore. Yeah, exactly. And so, um. While that was sort of brewing, I started blogging back in 2004 and my friends and I started to blog and no one was really doing TV recapping. And so. I started recapping things like The Hills and Laguna Beach and Big Brother and Amazing Race and Survivor. And so that was like my foray really into like reality TV. And then my friend was like, you have to start watching Real Housewives of Orange County. And at first I was like I don’t know, but I started watching starting with season three. That must have been 2009, 2008, 2000. I mean, these Housewives shows are, we’re coming up on 20 years.

 

Louis Virtel No, it’s an institution. It actually creeps me out. I always compare these shows to Gunsmoke. Like, they’re like, wow, we just get more and more of them. Miss Kitty lives.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, exactly. And so I was just like, okay, so I started recapping them on my blog and it was just a fun little thing. And then somewhere along the way, I was helping a friend move and he’s like, by the way I’m counsel for this upstart thing that might be a good option for you. We’re doing a web series. So I started doing this web series called Housewives Hoedown and that was 2011. And that was all about the real housewives. And that sort of just morphed into watch where crap ends. And at that time, it was just like a fun side gig, but like it really just plunged me deep and hard into the world of Bravo.

 

Louis Virtel Now, Ben, we initially wanted to talk about Love Island and we will get there, but unfortunately there’s breaking news. Our producer ran in here, like she won the Price is Right, and there’s news that Taylor Swift, who is an American pop singer, is engaged to Travis Kelce, a football man.

 

Ben Mandelker As the kids would say, uh, shooketh.

 

Louis Virtel I guess we all knew it was coming, but at the same time, I’m shocked it would ever occur? I don’t know. I don’t know.

 

Ben Mandelker I think I’m less shocked that it’s happening, I’m more just shocked that’s happening right now, specifically while we are together. Yes, no, it was designed for us to react to, yes. It was engineered perfectly.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, okay. It says here, your English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married. The pictures are as gorgeous as you expect. The jewelry is popping. They’re in an embrace that’s not too sexy.

 

Ben Mandelker Listen, it’s got to be for all audiences. Right.

 

Louis Virtel Right. I feel like there’s a sign above her door that says not too sexy, which is the key to

 

Ben Mandelker whole thing about too sexy never too sexy with is it from her yes that’s

 

Louis Virtel Yes, that says your English teacher and your gym teacher.

 

Ben Mandelker Are getting married. Wow. Wow. This is going to break the internet. I have to say, I’m not going to lie, my phone was going off like nonstop right before this and like that must have been what it was about.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, and also, by the way, you’re not like a known Taylor Swift fan. You just have to be kept in like what you have to know.

 

Ben Mandelker I am not a full-fledged Swifty at all. I’m like Swift appreciative. And I’m just like, but like, I think anyone, I feel like this is the thing that just everyone texts, this is like a pop culture thing right now. Like we’re here for.

 

Louis Virtel No, I have so many questions. Do we get a primetime wedding? Do I get to turn on the TV and see it?

 

Ben Mandelker Who gets invited? Can we get invited? Does she treat-

 

Louis Virtel Three people magazine, like wedding exclusive, like how does she handle this kind of thing? It’s so, it reminds me of Sean Penn and Madonna. It’s like, I can already picture the helicopters overhead.

 

Ben Mandelker Oh, this could be fascinating because she has her, her squad and people come in and people come out of the squad. And I think this is going to be a true kind of like referendum on who is truly in the squad because who gets to go to this wedding is going to say, Oh, it does Lord get an invitation.

 

Louis Virtel Right. How many people from the Bad Blood video get invited? Mariska Hargitay, will you be there?

 

Ben Mandelker Will you be there, Todrick? Will Todrick be there?

 

Louis Virtel Wow, yes, right. You need to calm down video needs to calm down MTV video of the year winner. Todrick Hall, arguably the architect of it.

 

Ben Mandelker This is going to be like Hunger Games to get that invitation.

 

Louis Virtel Do you think she’ll have one gay groomsman on her side? Yes. That seems so her, right? Mason jars at the wedding, one gay grooming man.

 

Ben Mandelker Oh, there will be some sort of like crocheted netting thing that the seating chart will be attached to some sort ropey thing that you have to pluck it off and go to your table. You know? Yeah. I picture some crinoline. Yeah. Just delicate fabrics. Mason jars everywhere. Like votives. Yeah. Votives left and right. On the dance floor. Yes. Right.

 

Louis Virtel A little yet a little haunted, you know, like what would the mom and Carrie like how that room looks? Yeah, yeah.

 

Ben Mandelker But I feel like this will also be, you’ll have a weird mix of like her squad, but then also football players. Yeah. And that’s gonna be a strange kind of like, like I feel Jason Kelce is gonna be there like bare-chested on the dance floor, dancing the electric slide or something, while like Zoe Kravitz is off to the side, sort of trying to figure out what’s going on. Zoe Krabitz in the squad, I feel she is. I don’t think so. It feels like squad appropriate. Right.

 

Louis Virtel Right, but she’s nepo in a way where she’s like, maybe I’m in the squad, maybe I am not. She still would get, I would give her an invitation. If not Todrick Hall, who’s the one gay at the wedding? Who is the one?

 

Ben Mandelker Gay? Is it like Michael Urie? Someone random like that?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, that would be great. I love that talent

 

Ben Mandelker Like, I could see, like, a Michael Urie. I could, see, um… I hope it’s not someone influencer-y. I hope its a talent. I want, yes, someone who could perform at the wedding. Yeah, like some…

 

Louis Virtel Like, it has to be Adam Lambert-level.

 

Ben Mandelker It could be Adam Lambert himself. Although I don’t know, he might be too edgy rock and roll, right?

 

Louis Virtel It could be for that crowd.

 

Ben Mandelker That could be a lot for the football set as Adam Lambert.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I have to say, Taylor Swift always is doing such hard work for people born in the late 80s. And I feel like she is our accidentally my generation’s legacy. So I thank her for everything she’s done. In other words, this you can’t fuck up this marriage. You’re doing it for everybody. This is it.

 

Ben Mandelker This is a forever couple now. Yeah, yeah, this is going all the way. Put a stamp on it.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, we’ve dealt with Taylor Swift. Let’s get to the pressing issues in our country, Love Island, which you are obsessed with. Obsessed.

 

Ben Mandelker Lois yes

 

Louis Virtel Yes, now you have to kind of explain this to me because it is I have a couple of pop culture blind spots Okay, and this one I’ve watched explainer videos of love island because I love you and I want to be on your level Thank you. This show will kill my brain

 

Ben Mandelker Yes. It’s just a lot to binge. And then they had this reunion last night that was like two hours long. I love Love Island. I’ve never been into a dating show. I have never been in a dating reality. I don’t watch The Bachelor or Bachelorette or any of those. But Love Island, I think it’s deeply entertaining. And so I think that the people who have like said, oh, you got to watch Love Island and they just sit at home and they watch it. It’s like, they’re like, it’s fine. And they might get caught up in some of like the storylines that happen. But like, if you just sit with a group of people and watch it, Like the show kind of blooms and then once you have that experience then you can actually watch it alone more easily because you sort of will then be texting your friends all the way through. So it’s like a very social show to watch and to experience and I think that’s one of the reasons why I love it. Also another reason why I really love Love Island is I think it’s a very sophisticated show. No, that’s crazy. Yeah. No, it’s sophisticated in its production. Yeah. In the way it’s executed. I. As you have been as well. I’ve always been a huge Big Brother fan. You know, watched it for 25 years. This is the year that I stopped. I stopped watching it this year.

 

Louis Virtel I have to say I fell off myself. I think the characters aren’t there for me. Sometimes you realize you’re getting the same drama you’ve gotten from previous seasons.

 

Ben Mandelker It’s the same cast. There’s always some wacky girl in a crazy hat. There’s also some guy with a mustache. You know, it’s always the same thing. But there’s the slide whistles, there’s the sound effects, there is the obviously scripted diary rooms, there are the people screaming at the camera like, I don’t know what to do. I mean, I’m trying to hang on to this hot dog and I’m about to fall off. And you’re like, oh, my God, it gives you a headache. Yeah. And when you watch Love Island, Love Island is actually a very similar show. It’s a surveillance based show where they have cameras everywhere and everything is captured. And what I love about Love Island is that they have trust in their subjects, that the people that they cast are interesting enough that they don’t have to add all these bells and whistles to make it compelling.

 

Louis Virtel Wow, that does feel like an impossibility on Big Brother, something they would never allow to happen. Yeah.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, and I actually think Big Brother would be so much better if they sort of stripped away all the stuff that they add into it to try to hype it up, because the show is inherently very fascinating and interesting. And if they just said, look, there are interesting people on this show, and we believe that they’re interesting, and if we just let them talk, the audience will be into it. Because like the best parts of Big Brother is when they’re strategizing and discussing things or shading each other, right?

 

Louis Virtel And so much of the show, by the way, is structured like a Japanese game show where they want it to seem extreme at all times.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah. And they have these challenges that go on for like, like 30 minutes of air time. Like if you have a one hour show and you’re spending 30 minutes watching people get like slop poured on them or like not actual slop actually means something else. I’m big brother. But if they have like slime and powder or being busted in their face, it’s kind of like, am I watching Nickelodeon right now? I don’t need to watch this. Whereas love Island definitely has some gross out challenges, but you will sit there for an hour and just watch people talk. And I think that’s actually kind of revolutionary and I think it’s really bold of them and it makes me makes it harder for me to go to big brother and watch another surveillance show with all this silliness in my face.

 

Louis Virtel It’s like you’re saying Love Island is like a Nicole Hall of Center film. Like, I just want to absorb the dynamics. Yes. Take in the character histories. I need Catherine. It’s about social mores. Catherine Keener, please be on Love Island.

 

Ben Mandelker Love Island is quietly the Kathryn Keener of reality TV shows. You just wouldn’t know it

 

Louis Virtel Well, now you’ve put it in my language.

 

Ben Mandelker That’s all I had to do.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, but the recent US season just concluded and Andy Cohen co-hosted the reunion

 

Ben Mandelker He actually, what I thought was really nice was, not nice, it’s actually appropriate. Arianna Maddox is the host of the show and she came on and she introduced the reunion and she’s, I’m your host and joining me is Andy Cohen, which I thought it was really good because it’s sort of inappropriate that she’s the host for the entire show, then this guy comes in and gets to host the reunion. But the truth is that Andy’s been doing the reunion thing a long time and he’s become really good at it and he was like pretty quick with where he needs to follow up questions, where he has to press harder and I think that he was sort of like a mentor it’s a. Ariana like it was Ariana was technically the main host, but like Andy was sort of there to support and

 

Louis Virtel The way he holds those cards and sit there, it’s giving Chuck Woolery on Love Connection. You know, just like the lean back and the like, tell me how that date went.

 

Ben Mandelker I’m sure that’s a huge compliment to Andy Cohen because he hosted the new Love Connection on Fox. Right. A box.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. And he’s also not a horrid Republican. That too. R.I.P. We’re both game show fans. We know he did good work, but not that good of work.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, you know, there was a limit to it. But Andy, what’s great about Andy is when he gets angry at someone, he has he gets this evil smile. And at one point on the reunion, Andy was asking Huda about who she’s been dating since the show wrapped. And she goes, I’m so sorry, I actually can’t talk about that. And he’s like, why not? He’s like. Well, legally, I am not allowed. He’s, like, legally. Netflix, they won’t allow me. And Andy got this look of like, he went from being a host to a, I’m a part of a network TV network. I’m I’m, a former network executive and I’m here hosting a show. And I have been brought out here to this reunion to talk to you twits. You better answer my question. And he literally goes, well, tell Netflix that Love Island was the number one stream show of the summer.

 

Louis Virtel Wow. Love that. Wow. Fade down away a network. Oh, yes. Absolutely.

 

Ben Mandelker If they put Andy in a long beige pencil skirt, I’m sure it would look amazing. Put Faye Dunaway as one of the hosts of these reunions and that would be amazing. Oh my God. All of her questions would be like, now did you see me in Chinatown? I was genius in that. Don Juan DeMoc, I was with the wonderful Johnny Depp. Do you know I was just talking about that movie last week.

 

Louis Virtel But what what a bizarro 90s movie that’s totally forgotten.

 

Ben Mandelker I believe it’s the hottest Johnny Depp has ever looked.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, good question. I kind of liked him in, is that movie called Secret Window?

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, it’s way after that. Yeah, that sounds like a young adult novel. Yeah. Yeah I don’t think I saw that

 

Louis Virtel Okay, anyway, we can make more fade-down away comments as the episode goes on. Let’s preview where we’re headed today, as much as I would like to just stay on Love Island. On today’s show, we are going to be talking about, eventually, the oldest albums we’re still spinning. And the reason we’re doing this is it’s the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith’s Horses. I remember where I was when I bought that album, actually. But we’re just going to go into our discographies, our CD booklets. Love it. And see what the oldest thing we still play on a regular basis is and why. We’ll also talk about, I think the buzziest show occurring right now, at least among my friends, Alien Earth. You already brought up Slime, um, and this is the most Slime por- like, here’s the Kids’ Choice Awards, here is Alien Earth!

 

Ben Mandelker In terms of slime forwardness? I was going to say that Love Island represents like the final stage of the Alien Earth conquest. It’s like the Xenomorphs eventually become the Love Island contestants.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, and then of course we will interview the fabulous Matt Smith who you know from I mean everything he was the 11th doctor who? House the dragon he’s gonna be in the Star Wars universe And he’s in the new Darren Aronofsky movie caught stealing with Austin Butler whom I loved in the movie Eddington a movie that was so Unpleasant I I don’t I don’t even hear about Eddingten. Yeah Ari Aster’s latest joint. Oh my goodness Yeah, yeah hereditary still his best anyway, so that’s our episode today. We’ll be right back with more Keep It.

 

Louis Virtel [AD].

 

Louis Virtel Keep It listeners know that I like to live in the wonder years of the past, but sometimes the culture requires me to come down to earth, specifically alien earth. After over 40 years, the alien franchise has finally broken into TV and the series seems to be all everyone’s talking about. Now Ben, Sigourney Weaver does not appear in the series, moment of silence.

 

Ben Mandelker Yes.

 

Louis Virtel And yet we decided to discuss this show, which, and by the way, neither of us is sci-fi oriented.

 

Ben Mandelker No, I’m not. I would not say I have a sci-fi orientation. I like to visit once in a while. And I also just want to say this has nothing to do with anything, but I feel like it’s important to note that one time I was on a flight and Sigourney Weaver was on the flight.

 

Louis Virtel Sorry. Alien Earth has been great. We need to actually be talking about this earth moment. What happened? First of all, she’s nine foot four. She’s nine four. I absolutely know she was wearing a trench coat.

 

Ben Mandelker She was wearing sweater. Sorry, it was summer.

 

Louis Virtel Okay.

 

Ben Mandelker A sweater in summer though. I think that’s fair. I remember I was sitting like in an aisle seat in like economy. Yeah. And I was, it like one of those two, three, two layouts, you know, of seats. And I wasn’t, I was in the inner three. Yeah, and I was there. And I remember, I could see into business class and I remember she was right there and I thought. My goodness, that is Sigourney Weaver. And she just looked amazing. And she was like not made up or anything, obviously, because it’s Sigournie Weaver, she doesn’t have to do those things. And I just noticed-

 

Louis Virtel Nor does she have to take any roles. She’ll go five years. She’s like, I don’t care.

 

Ben Mandelker She’s like, I don’t care. And I just remember her like adjusting her little pillow. And I remember thinking, this is a dream come true. I’m basically trapped in a tin can with the Sigourney Weaver.

 

Louis Virtel I’m sure the Yale drama prestige was just like leaking off her You know, she’s like thinking about Christopher Durang and like Meryl took too many of my roles and all that. Yeah

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, I felt like New Haven coursing through the plain. That’s exactly right. All the Eli’s.

 

Louis Virtel But I will say, as much as I enjoyed lots about this show, and it’s, again, genre-wise, not something I care about, I did feel initially it needs a Sigourney Weaver. I felt like, which by the way, I don’t know if you know this about her in the Alien movies, tons and tons of people tried out for the Ellen Ripley role, and she was chosen, like, I donno who it was screened for, but audiences picked her because they found her to be a lot like Jane Fonda. Oh, interesting. She does have the same sort of can-do grit, like very action-oriented and yet also human.

 

Ben Mandelker Steely. It’s funny. It is so funny because I always see Sigourney as one of our great waspy actresses. And it’s funny how like waspy, steely waspiness can also be like channeled into action very effectively, you know? And I agree, we do need Sigournie. I think honestly, this show needs a lot of things. I’m not gonna lie. I was not a huge fan of Alien Earth. Admittedly, not my wheelhouse. But like, it definitely needs like, I think strong. Female lead and I just am not sure that this child in a robot synthetic body is giving me the strident hero that we need or want.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah on this show there are three different types of beings and one of them is this hybridized person where it’s like a child’s brain and a adult body so you’re getting a lot of accidental Tom Hanks and big acting.

 

Ben Mandelker It’s like, honestly, it’s the weirdest choice. I mean, so like, you have this show where like, it’s all the standard alien kind of stuff, but there’s this subplot of these children with an extended and tiresome Peter Pan metaphor. Yeah, the main girl is named Wendy. Wendy, but they also like, they take children and they sort of copy and paste their brains into these synthetic bodies. And while they’re doing that, They’re watching Peter Pan. Feeling and then they all decide to name themselves after the lost boys or the children or whatever it is and I’m like this is it feels to me like there’s two concepts going on here It’s like we’re either gonna watch a show about these Synths that these childlike since that have to do adult things or we’re gonna watch about an alien invasion But like mashing them together is not quite working for me. I have to say

 

Louis Virtel No, among the things I do like, first of all, it’s nice to see the xenomorph again. I love the xenomorph. There’s something about the xenormorph, first off, it is like the speed of them and the way the face, the zoom-ins, they are scary.

 

Ben Mandelker But they’re sort of sexy.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, also in the orthodontia is on fire. Oh my god, their teeth are fantastic. Yeah

 

Ben Mandelker I mean, like, I know.

 

Louis Virtel Full Manta Dan.

 

Ben Mandelker They are pushing down that men to dent thing and they they look they look amazing. They are so sleek They’re so cool sleek is right. Yeah. Yeah, here’s my concern, but the xenomorph and this is what I I I feel ridiculous for it even asking this question. What is the xenomorphs more motivation? No No.

 

Louis Virtel What the hell is it doing? It’s sort of like my problem with weapons. I’m like, why is this witch here? Why is she just needs to terrorize children?

 

Ben Mandelker Why yeah, it’s like I don’t like the xenomorph is just killing indiscriminately. It doesn’t seem to be feeding Yeah, it doesn’t even seem to to be hatching eggs like or like like impregnating, you know, or whatever. Yeah process is It’s just killing and killing some more and I just feel like animals at least and I know these are not animals These are xenomorphs, but animals usually when they kill it’s usually to eat and then they settle down and nap Does he know more than that?

 

Louis Virtel Xenomorph settled down.

 

Ben Mandelker I’m like

 

Louis Virtel You’re waiting for the Angold and Pond Xenomorph movie.

 

Ben Mandelker Is the Xenomorph ever gonna nap? I mean, it’s constantly killing.

 

Louis Virtel No, that’s true. I guess I’m always so proud of TV for being scary in a way movies can’t because I grew up, you know, you grew up on television thinking it can never go as hard as a movie. And now I’m realizing there’s no reason TV can’t go as heart as movies. Whereas like my version of scary things on TV growing up was like, are you afraid of the dark? Where like, that meant. That clown sure is loud. So when you get to see something as violent as this and oh my god is this show violent? Yes, it’s it’s like kind of rad, but I will say something that bothers me about the show is it’s so Cinematically shot and again, this is the first Part of the alien franchise to be on TV It’s so cinematically shot in a way that reminds me of the movie aliens the 86 one That I wish I could watch it in a theater and I wish it were a movie

 

Ben Mandelker Well, it almost feels like it should be a movie because honestly, the first two episodes of the show, like, I don’t want to be as dramatic and say nothing happens, but like,

 

Louis Virtel I found the first episode a struggle to get through.

 

Ben Mandelker If you were to give a plot summary of the first two episodes, it’s like, okay, you have like this child, this girl gets grafted into a synthetic body, and then a spaceship crashes into a city called New Siam, and they go and they search, and in episode two, they continue to search and they find eggs, like that’s like all of episode two is just searching.

 

Louis Virtel With some xenomorph acrobatics, and it gets real Dominic Mochiano. Like, I’m pretty sure there were flip-flops.

 

Ben Mandelker I know, and like a random Louie the 14th party happening.

 

Louis Virtel That looked slay.

 

Ben Mandelker I was like, can we just do that show? I would love to watch these people.

 

Louis Virtel It looked like the aniline-

 

Ben Mandelker walking a broken glass video? 100%. I was waiting for what’s his face? House MD to walk through.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, yes. I forget his name. Gregory Hive. Gregory Hives.

 

Ben Mandelker Hugh Laurie. Hugh Laurie, thank you. I wanted to be like Hugo. It’s not right. But I felt like it was scaring everything. But also, oh my God, this brother. So this, can we talk about this brother? He’s annoying. So in the middle of this, okay, so the main, our Sigourney Weaver, who is Wendy

 

Louis Virtel Who is the daughter of Kyle Chandler, by the way.

 

Ben Mandelker Of Kyle Chandler, which is crazy.

 

Louis Virtel And by the way, Sigourney Weeper, a nepo baby herself. Is she? Yes.

 

Ben Mandelker Okay. Um, but so you have her, she’s like, really, she cares a lot about her brother and her brother is like a medic in like new Siam and the spaceship crashes and he goes to investigate it and now he’s in danger and she’s like, I have to save my brother. It’s like a pretty thin, right. Like they’re like, okay, we’ll send the robot, the robots out. So this brother. He almost gets killed by the xenomorph. It’s actually very, very scary. And he actually has a great scene. I thought his one great scene is after he first encounters the xenomorph, he’s in an elevator and he’s calling for help and he like can barely even speak and he shaking so much. I was like, that felt like real. This felt like someone who just got attacked. And then he spends the rest of the episode constantly running into the xenonmorph and he just becomes so cavalier about it because he’s just like, at one point he’s like in this fancy apartment and he encounters a baseball that’s like signed by Reggie Jackson. And he’s like, looking at the baseball and he’s thinking about Reggie Jackson and thinking about his dad and thinking about baseball. I’m like, there’s a fucking xenomorph out there. Why are you not running to the elevators and getting out of this building? And said, he’s just like wandering around and I was like, I can’t, I cannot with this brother. I don’t want to see him anymore.

 

Louis Virtel No, what do you think of the Alien movies period? Why do you have a favorite one because I much prefer the 79 one I love the dread of the first one the like you’ve already lost the aliens already won feeling

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah. So fun fact, I’ve only seen alien and I’ve had aliens on my to see for like years and years and years. I’ve never gotten around to it. I love the first alien. I think it’s amazing. I think that’s wonderful. It’s beautifully shot. I loved the sort of the tribute to it in the pilot, the way the pilot opened for alien earth was sort of a visual tribute to the way it and I thought the dread, like you said, that dread, that isolation. The stillness of that movie was so brilliant and so wonderful and evocative. I absolutely loved the first Alien.

 

Louis Virtel And also, again, we already brought up Sigourney Weaver, but it’s like, it’s very also character driven. Like I find the sci-fi that I actually do care about are things like Arrival, you know, things where it’s, like, I’m actually following a human journey more than I’m following, like lore. Though I think that’s just a different brain altogether. Like some people like live for lore, whereas like, I literally want this, I was like, how can we turn this into the movie In the Bedroom? Can it just be a confrontation at a kitchen counter somehow?

 

Ben Mandelker I love what they call like like adult sci-fi or mature sci-Fi like I like a Gattaca

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, that’s just like I think is the best looking movie of the 1990s. It is a shockingly gorgeous movie.

 

Ben Mandelker Yes, it’s beautiful. I often think about with the original Alien, I always imagine what it must have been like for audiences in 1979 to watch that because it’s such a scary movie. Like it is so like bone chillingly scary. And I’m wondering like how, like what sort of exposure audiences in 1979 had to that kind of movie. And how I feel like it must’ve just wrecked so many people.

 

Louis Virtel And also the beginning of like something being like gross and jumping out at you. It had like a real speed to it. And yet also, and like, again, like you already lost, like there’s no like fight back that is possible.

 

Ben Mandelker And aliens never looked like that. I feel like aliens, my awareness of aliens in cinema was always like, they were sort of silly looking, you know, from like those 1950s movies. And fuzzy.

 

Louis Virtel And fuzzy and green, yeah.

 

Ben Mandelker Right, and I just don’t remember what other alien movies were in the 70s necessarily, but it sort of strikes me that this was probably the first time we saw a real, sleek, scary, gooey alien. I could be wrong, but I just have to imagine people saw this movie and thought, oh, it’ll be just like a space movie, and they were like, holy shit, I’m crapping my pants right now. Yeah, right.

 

Louis Virtel And also, it’s so epic, too, like the music, like the, beyond just the look of it, like you feel like you’re really delivered to another kind of like mindset altogether. But I will say, I want to bring up Kyle Chandler’s daughter who’s the protagonist, Sydney Chandler. I think it’s pretty good. I mean, again, we don’t have a powerful, dynamic force in this show yet, but this is a good time to ask, do you have favorite Nepo baby?

 

Ben Mandelker Period who are operating at this very moment. That’s a great question. I don’t know if I have a favorite Nebo baby. I just feel like I’m always amused every time I run into them. I don’t know what’s your favorite Nebobaby that’s happening right now. That’s happening right now.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, I continue to really support the work of Dakota Johnson. It’s just- I didn’t like Materialist and I loved her in it. Okay. And I feel like she’s usually, her thing is like, some people are more important as vibe than actor, and I feel she has the best of that vibe.

 

Ben Mandelker She is very vibey. You know, so there’s a parallel, I think, between like the original Alien and Nepo Baby is like, the moment when Ian Holm is revealed, Ash is revealed to be like a synth. And you’re like, oh my God, I feel like that’s how I feel every time I find that someone’s a Nepo baby. I’m like, Oh, oh, my God. They take the head off and look inside and like, oh my god, there’s celebrity DNA in here. Right, oh.

 

Louis Virtel Right, oh, girl on the pit, I thought I related to you. No, Brian Cranston’s your father.

 

Ben Mandelker Yes, everyone. It’s like, it’s shocking how many Nepo babies are around. But you know what? I think it’s like fun. I think its a fun detail whenever you find out that someone’s a Nepo baby.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I also just kind of love them because, again, I feel like the thing that, like, people who are new to fame who aren’t Nepo babies, the thing they’re trying to protect about being famous, Nepo Babies don’t care about. They can take and leave the really, like artificial parts of this. And so they’ll be famous and then be curt and honest to your, like Jane Fonda is not going to be like overly self-deprecating for you. Right. You know what I mean? Like Gwyneth Paltrow’s not going to sit there and be like. Um, it’s important that you like me. In fact, she’s leaned so hard in the direction of she’s like, I’m going to make my risotto and it’s going to cost a million dollars.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah

 

Louis Virtel She’s like, you know, just that that’s the way it is and that’s the way I am thing. Miley Cyrus is sort of similar. So I sort of honor them as, as a species actually.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, you know, it’s so funny. I like really cannot think of any nepo baby right now like my the nepo babies

 

Louis Virtel Angelica Huston, one of my favorites, yes.

 

Ben Mandelker Oh, well, yeah, I mean, I love when a nepo baby becomes is just just comes into their own Just stop thinking of them as a nebo baby. You think of them is just like the next generation of stardom. Sure Liza Minnelli, etc. Exactly But like Angelica Houston is if I ran in her on the street, I’m telling you I wouldn’t be the same I was gonna ask you have you ever has she ever been able to interview? Yes

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I did. She was in the movie 50-50 with Joseph Gordon-Levitt, and I said at the time, I was like, you beat Oprah Winfrey for an Academy Award, 1985 Best Supporting Actress, she was in Pritzy’s honor, Oprah was of course in the color purple, and she goes, yeah, you know, she’s never had me on her show. And she goes it just comes to show that some people are a little bit petty, even Oprah. She’s like, that’s what I’m talking about. Just like you are deeply honest. Just we’ll say it. Yeah, I’ll say, maybe Oprah deserved that Oscar. I love her in Prince’s honor though.

 

Ben Mandelker I have to say one of my favorite surprising Angelica Houston roles is when she’s revealed to be the beautiful queen in.

 

Louis Virtel What’s it called- The Witches, John Wick

 

Ben Mandelker Why am I blanking on the Epcot ride?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, Captain EO.

 

Ben Mandelker Captain E-O. Yes, yes. When I saw Captain Eo, they like brought it back and I had never seen it before. It’s shocking. And there’s this whole thing, there’s Evil Witch and Michael Jackson.

 

Louis Virtel Michael Jackson. Disney Ride.

 

Ben Mandelker Directed by Francis Ford Coppola.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Who had an interesting 1980’s

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, and then like this like evil witch is tormenting Michael Jackson And he think he like transformed certain to this beauty and it’s like who is it? It’s Angelica

 

Louis Virtel I was like, what, yes!

 

Ben Mandelker It was so good.

 

Louis Virtel Well, Francis Ford Coppola is also one of those people who’s like, he’s not gay at all. And yet also, like, man, is Matt Dillon gorgeous in Rumblefish. And you know, like there’s some, like esthetic things going, like they’re hot men and the godfather, whatever. Well

 

Ben Mandelker Well, um, talk about a nepo creator as Francis Ford Coppola, but, you know, he grew up across the street from my mom and she used to wait at the bus stop with him and she said that he was like, very kind and always, I think he did, what did my mom say? They sort of had rosy cheeks and I don’t remember what it was. I wish I had better details on this.

 

Louis Virtel Somebody somewhere knew Francis Ford Coppola.

 

Ben Mandelker I felt like there was a story there. And as I started to say it, I realized there’s not much more to it than my mom would wait at the bus stop with a Francis Ford Coppola. But you know, I guess that’s about it.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, what does it take for you to be invested in a sci-fi show?

 

Ben Mandelker Like what you said, you have to have just characters and I think you need to have like, you need a, I think for a TV show, you need have lots of interesting storylines going on. And I think that this one, unfortunately for me, does not have a lot of interesting storyline going on beyond that.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I’m sort of waiting for the jump scares really so that something happens.

 

Ben Mandelker Oh yeah. Well, I mean, I’m, I hate horror and I, um, I get jumped scared by everything. So I was like jumping every two seconds on this slimy, slimy show. Oh my goodness. The sound, by the way, the sound design deserves an Emmy because it is nonstop creepy crawly, gooey sounds like it’s surrounding you. But my concern is that like, yes, obviously we have stakes here. There’s an alien invasion that’s about to happen, but there’s not like, there’s a lot of other storylines and like I’m not, compelled. I’m not intrigued by really anything else that’s happening. There’s this cyborg that’s like dead set on delivering these aliens to like the rival corporation. But I’m like, I don’t know if I really care.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. You know, like I don’t care if it’s cargo makes it. Well again, it’s just like, I like it enough for a movie. It’s just, I can’t imagine moving through. I just, and I also think in general, something that’s happening right now with TV dramas is we don’t have many compelling drama characters right now. I feel like following the, like the end of like succession and even Shogun, let alone Breaking Bad or Mad Man or shows like that. Like I don’t know that we’re really talking about any particular dramatic character in general. And like those are the people I’m most invested in on TV.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, I actually believe it or not, my hot take may be that I think the show would have been better off spending a lot of time doing more character development in that first episode or in the second. Like maybe hold off on the aliens a little bit. I know they have to like, they have lean into the alien stuff, but they dive so quickly into the action and so quickly into this like the grossness of it all and attack and you know all the attacking things that I think we we do miss out on some valuable dialog or character building that makes us care about any of these story lines.

 

Louis Virtel I would love one moment of spicy, interesting, funny dialog. We definitely do not have that yet.

 

Ben Mandelker We need to know more about Dame Sylvia, by the way. I feel like she is like the resident like lady who always has her hair up and she has sort of…

 

Louis Virtel SC Davis is that actress?

 

Ben Mandelker Oh, okay. And she may be Australian, maybe British, there’s sort of like a…

 

Louis Virtel Foreign sounds. They’re always mysterious to me, yeah.

 

Ben Mandelker And you feel like there’s more there. And I just feel like she’s especially a way in for us gays. And I, just like, I just would like more because there’s this boy, boy Cavalier is the name of the guy who runs the, the corporation that I guess we’re, we’re more rooting for prodigy versus, um, the Wayland.

 

Louis Virtel I know the corporate angle on this is also very like tough to keep straight By the way, we should say Timothy Oliphant is on this show and he has shock blonde hair and it’s like almost queer villain coated Like it’s that it’s not like Vincent Price thing of like I’m kind of normal except I’m really good at gardening You know that like a weird gay thing a little Malcolm McDowell II you are that is exactly who it’s

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, with a touch of R.I.P. Terrence Sam.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, one of the great actors by the way. I love Terrence. If you haven’t seen The Collector, he’s so good in that.

 

Ben Mandelker Okay, well, I actually really am enjoying Timothy Ollipand in this. He seems like he’s having fun being a little sort of arch and a little silly as this like, I don’t know, slightly fae-synthetic.

 

Louis Virtel And also, I guess, jacked. He’s just like a thin, ropey man. Yeah. I think of him as the guy from Justify, where he became everybody’s dad’s favorite actor. Uh-huh. And now he’s doing this role that is like, not your dad’s favorite.

 

Ben Mandelker No, but he’s also reassuring when he’s on camera because he you know, he’s not going to get like nothing’s gonna pop out and attack him because he’s a robot and so like the aliens don’t care about the robots. I’m like, Oh, thank God.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah. Job security.

 

Ben Mandelker I can bring her to the scene. Yes, yeah, yeah. And job security.

 

Louis Virtel But when I look at Timothy Oliphant, I really still see killer from Scream 2. Like if I saw Courtney Cox in something, I wouldn’t be thinking about Scream. Him I am, I can’t explain it. That was the perfect role for him because he’s so like a normal looking guy who when he takes a turn and it turns out he’s a killer, I believe it.

 

Ben Mandelker Was he operating with Lori Metcalfe? He was.

 

Louis Virtel He was, as we all would love to.

 

Ben Mandelker Honestly, when I saw Lori Metcalf in that movie, I was like, she is the killer. There’s no reason for Lori Metcap to be in Scream unless she’s the killer with her shock light gray suit. She was like a was she a nurse or something?

 

Louis Virtel No, she was she was posing as a reporter and then it turned out she was Billy Loomis’s mother. Yes Yes, that was also the beginning of the end for scream because I’m so sorry She did not literally carve up all those fucking bodies in the first movie. You can picture Stu and 100% Billy actually doing it. They’re crazy, you know, yeah, but she’s not she’s she’s too domestic. I’m sorry I’ve seen Lady Bird Great movie, but yes, lovely movie. Okay, so that was our deeply in-depth discussion of Alien Earth. Alien Earth? Sigourney, come back to us. Please. Please bring her back. When we’re back, the fabulous Matt Smith.

 

[AD].

 

Louis Virtel This week’s guest is the face of several fandoms, maybe the most serious fandoms from Doctor Who to Game of Thrones to Star Wars come 2027. But he also has a dramatic side, best seen in projects like The Crown, Last Night in Soho and Darren Aronofsky’s upcoming crime thriller, Caught Stealing. Today he’s here to talk about it all. So please welcome to Keep It, Matt Smith. Hello. Man, all you have is competing fandoms. It feels like people are just beating down your door to tell you they love your work and also don’t fuck up this thing for me that I’m obsessed with.

 

Matt Smith I mean, I wish, although when I got Doctor Who, I do remember, like, I was walking down the street once and someone was like, just shouted at me, apropos of nothing. Also, I hadn’t even, like hadn’t filmed a scene yet either. And they just went, don’t break Doctor Who.

 

Ben Mandelker I mean, is that like, I mean when you get inserted into a franchise, like iconic franchises, like do you feel like, is there like so much pressure on your shoulders or you just be like, okay, cool, I’m just going to come in here and do my thing.

 

Matt Smith Oh no, I think there’s always a pressure. I mean, especially with that show, because you’re like, I mean it’s like it’s woven into the fabric of the culture of the country in a way and everyone, you know, particularly in England, although I have to say there is a developing fan base for that show in America, certainly, or there has been over, you know over the last 10 years or so. But yeah, yeah, there’s an inherent pressure particularly with that. And I suppose also with House of the Dragon, but You know, the truth is, is that you can only ever do it your way, you know, you can’t… I mean the worst thing you could do is try and imitate, and in the case of House of the Dragon it was, I think Game of Thrones was its own unique sort of cultural phenomenon of the time, you now, it was a juggernaut in its time when TV was sort of the trend of the way we watched it and the way it was made and stuff. Was developing and changing and it was sort of in the nexus of that really. So, yeah, it was its own thing. So you just got to do it as best you can your own way. You boys know that though!

 

Louis Virtel We’re doing our best, damn it.

 

Matt Smith Yeah exactly, that’s what my dad used to say to you, just do your bloody best.

 

Louis Virtel Now, in this new movie, Caught Stealing, first of all, you are fabulous in it. You have also a deeply distinct look in it, this punk look with a full mohawk, which by the way, is like a dead word. I’ve said the word faux hawk so many times in the past 20 years, it feels like mohawks don’t exist anymore, but they do, and you have one in this movie. You look fantastic. First of all just talk about working on this movie in general with Darren Aronofsky and Austin Butler, who is great in this. This is a very violent, but extremely entertaining, taught thriller.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, he’s one of those directors that when you get the sort of inbox, ah, where he’s watched the movie, okay, it’s a thriller, who’s directing it, Darren Aronofsky, you’re like, yes, I don’t really need to know what it is. It’s just that that’s just an immediate yes. So it was one of these parts that I really wanted to go after, and sort of actively, you, know, I chased down in a way. And I was like, right, I really want to get this. And, you now, I had like four auditions for him. But he is, you I think when you see the film I mean, firstly, I read it, I was like, what’s quite a weird film for Darren to direct, because his films tend to have a different sort of…

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, like psychological menace to them.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, yeah, and this is a real fun yarn in a way, but he’s just, I mean you can see he’s just a real master of the form actually, and yeah it was a joy, it’s been one of my best experiences on a film set I have to say, and in no small part thanks to Austin who is just a delightful man. He’s got great humility, he works really hard, he’s really brilliant, I think you can tell when you watch the movie he just looks and feels like a bonafide movie star. He’s got that thing, really, that you either sort of have or you don’t have. And he most certainly does have that movie-style quality, I think. And he’s great in it and, you know, there’s a casual ease that he brings to it, which is actually really, really hard to do. And yeah, yeah, I was just really impressed with him.

 

Louis Virtel He’s amazing in the movie and I was just reading that he like actually slept in the apartment to like get used to Actually living in it and stuff. How immersive an actor are you? Will you do kind of like out-of-the-box things in order to feel like you belong on a set you’re at or whatever?

 

Matt Smith Yeah yeah for sure i mean he looked really fucking tired when i saw him the next morning after that i was like dude that didn’t because it was probably it’s a freezing cold in a studio do you know i mean um yeah i think it depends on the form of the piece and on the director and on the part um i mean what was really good about this is is like so much of a lot of that work is sort of done for you when you’re changing your image really drastically And there was something really liberating about that. I was quite nervous to do it, I have to confess, but yeah, there was some thing that sort of, cause it provides you with an immediate esthetic change and so therefore you sort of work from the outside in a little bit. It was cool, it was a, yeah, but I’m up for diving deep when it’s the right thing for sure.

 

Ben Mandelker Um, I have a question about your past as an actor. Cause I was reading about you, I was reading up on you and I was reading your Wikipedia. And it said that you were, you were originally an athlete and then you got injured. And then you had a, either a drama teacher or someone who, who got you into acting without your consent is that

 

Matt Smith How does that happen? I love how Wikipedia, like, well done Wikipedia, I know it’s, you know, it was like, he was convinced I should, I was good at acting. And I was a bit like, when I was at football I was like I only do acting man, that’s a bit, like I don’t know, I just felt a bit sort of like not in my wheelhouse really and I was, yeah, and then, and he put me in this drama festival and I didn’t turn up. And then he did it again and then over the summer he phoned my mom and was like look I’m gonna cast him in a play please can you encourage him to do it and then I did it and I turned out I quite liked it and you know actually I’ve got him to thank I’m still really close to him he’s called Mr Hardingham and I think in life you’re really lucky if you get one teacher who can really affect it do you know what I mean?

 

Louis Virtel Mm-hmm

 

Matt Smith I don’t know, have you guys, did you have teachers that sort of changed your attitude to something in a big way when you were growing up?

 

Louis Virtel Oh, totally, totally. Oh, God, no, I definitely have the English teacher who encouraged me to like.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, when you’re gay, it’s different. You need mentors in a different way. Yeah, they find us, they’ve sent us into like art programs and stuff like that. And all that, all that good stuff. But were you, were you doing like little school plays or something at the point? Like how did this teacher say like, oh, this guy is good at acting.

 

Matt Smith Well, I was doing it for what we call GCC, which is like your high school. It was like a subject at school. It was my art subject. So I did it once a week in class, but I just, I just like, you know, I just muddling through it, you. Know what I mean? But I was, you, I quite liked it, but it was just, it felt like quite a big left turn to go from being like a, like, cause football was my life really, and to go. From that to suddenly being an actor, it was a bit like. I don’t know, it just felt like an odd shoe to wear sort of thing, do you know what I mean? But secretly I really liked it. I think I was just probably afraid to admit that I liked it so much.

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of the the bold esthetic choice of your character in this movie have you ever like been put into costume or makeup or something for a role and Seeing yourself in it you saw something you didn’t expect and it actually Throws off your game when you’re about to act the role

 

Matt Smith because you don’t like the way you look or you don’t feel right in there.

 

Louis Virtel Or it’s just unexpected or it changes what you think of this character.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, I mean, maybe. But ultimately, it’s like, that’s kind of the fun bit really, is changing the image is feeling all that, you know, so I think sometimes, particularly when you watch yourself when you’re getting older, certainly you when you look back, I mean, I don’t really watch stuff, to be honest. And if I do, if it comes on, because it’s, it was like looking back at a different person in a way. Especially like I look back on doc two and stuff, I was 26. You know, you go, God, I’ve just aged savagely and I know it’s no fun is it and um but uh but no I mean no but I can’t say that it’s sort of throwing me in a negative way because I quite like all that image stuff I think it’s pretty cool.

 

Louis Virtel Mm-hmm

 

Matt Smith But you know, it was a tough leap to make on this because it was so, I mean I had lime green and red hair, because obviously, you know I’m shooting but I’ve got to live with it as well.

 

Ben Mandelker Did you grow your hair out for that or did they add stuff to build out the mohawk?

 

Matt Smith So they put a piece in the middle of it, but it’s all my hair, and then they build it up kind of together with this kind of structured bit in the middle. But then they had to cover it because it was lime green and red, so my hair has to go that color because my hair is covering the sort of structured bit. And yeah, man, and so then I just had to get my hair braided in New York every time I was like going out, because otherwise I looked like a fucking lunatic.

 

Ben Mandelker Compare that to the hair you have in House of the Dragon. What was the easier hair piece to deal with?

 

Matt Smith The mohawk is easier, because in House of the Dragon I have to wear a bald cap. So they have to cover your hair, because my hair’s dark you see, so they have to cover this because it’s blonde so it doesn’t show through. So that adds another like 45 minutes and then it’s like, that wig’s just like, oh yeah, that’s a tough one that. Whereas this was like, it was my own hair, do you know what I mean, I was done in like half an hour, there was just a lot of glue. Had to stay away from the fire. I’d have fucking taken off if it if I’d of caught a light There was so much glue in my head because that’s what punks used to do. They used to lie down and Then like glue their hair and iron it iron it Iron it they saw iron their hair good. They’re glued hair. So it stayed I mean, it’s when you think about it. Why don’t try that at home kids? Why? And also just terrible for your hair, like all of that stuff is, it comes at a cost because you can’t sleep on it. You can only sleep on your side or rest because, you know, you’ll mess the mohawk. It’s quite the commitment, I have to say.

 

Louis Virtel I was watching old Doctor Who recently and I think it’s a one-of-a-kind show in a way where I feel like after you do it, do you find that you miss getting to do certain things that are only specific to that show? The combination of sci-fi but drollness, it combines so many fun areas that I don’t think other shows ever replicate.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, I think that’s a good question. I mean, Stephen Moffat said to me, the writer, he was like, because I was leaving, he was like look, you know, don’t leave too soon because you’ll regret it. And it’s the most wonderful part. And he was right, in a way. Because what’s like amazing about it is like every two or three weeks, like you’re in a completely different world because they shoot the episodes quite quickly. And so every month you’re like, one minute you’re in the future and then you’re in Victorian England and there’s all these guest artists coming in. And then, you know, you’re on a dystopian planet and then you’re just in Britain, but there’s some sort of alien invasion. And there’s like something about that that’s so thrilling. And then I mean, also just as a part, it’s such a extraordinary thing that like, I mean really just, just being that close to this wonderful idea of time travel is brilliant. Yeah, I just love that show. It’s great and long may it continue.

 

Ben Mandelker How do you feel about now with House of the Dragon, now that you’re being sort of exposed to a very large American audience, like what’s that experience been like for you? Especially like a big, like dedicated Game of Thrones audience too.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s been good, man. I mean it’s nice to be in a show that has a like, that people watch actually, you know. I mean whether or not people think it’s a success or it’s this or it’s that is another question but it’s but it certainly has a broad appeal and I think there’s something cool about that, man

 

Louis Virtel Of course, I have to ask about The Crown quickly. I think The Crown, like Mad Men, I feel like there’s so much attention to, not just historical detail, but like to the nth degree. Like there must be somebody on set, like a historian, be like, oh, and you’re not gonna mess this up. Like, you know, I was wondering, what kind of pressure was there on an episode basis to just get everything right from a continuity standpoint, from a historical standpoint, and does any other filming experience compare to that?

 

Matt Smith So there’s a guy, he was really nice actually, and he was a royal, but he worked for the royal house for like 40 years or something. And so he would, if you’re sat at dinner, or if you were entering a room, or whatever it might be, who would enter first, who’d sit down first, obviously the order of what you eat, where you would place your hand if, you know, all this mad kind That does exist, it’s a mad thing. You know, it’s steep, they’re still really steeped in a lot of those vaguely archaic traditions really. But yeah, he was really great and really detailed and he was a nice man. And also he just had a lot, you know I just asked him about different people in the Royal House, like they all loved Philip, all of the staff absolutely loved him. Yeah, yeah, I think he was real sort of team player, man of the people with the house. And then he’d talk about other members of the family that maybe they weren’t so keen on, or, you know, it was really fascinating.

 

Ben Mandelker I guess also with The Crown and with House The Dragon, I feel like you, did you have to do an immense amount of like research for both of those, because you do have like lots of eyes on you about like, wait a second, the Daemon Targaryen’s not supposed to know about this like relic that came from like the dragon and whatever like, and is that like, is that arduous or is it exciting?

 

Matt Smith It’s good because you get to be a little bit of a historian. It’s like I would never have researched Philip as much as I did and therefore by proxy you end up sort of looking into the culture of Britain. I mean I think a lot of people watch that show and go actually I found it quite educational about Britain through the sort of late 40s onwards really. I mean look with House of the Dragon, obviously there is a book and there is sort of reference and. But there’s slightly more latitude because, you know, we’ll try the man on dragons, man. I mean, how sort of, how much logic can you stick to?

 

Louis Virtel Here’s my question about caught stealing. How much room do you actually get to sort of play on set? It’s such a taut thriller. I feel like, do you get to make any on the spur of the moment decisions or is it choreographed to the nth, everything you do?

 

Matt Smith Oh no, there was a lot of play. He let me improvise loads.

 

Louis Virtel Really? Oh, that’s that’s so surprising. That’s interesting.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, oh yeah, a lot of my stuff that’s in the movie is improvised in the moment, like that line, welcome to Narnia, it’s made up on the spot, you know, there’s so many of those little things, yeah, yeah. And because Darren’s got the confidence as a filmmaker to let that happen, you, know, he’s got complete, he knows exactly what the story is, you’ve really got to bring your A-game with him and he’s so in charge of the day, of every facet of the day. And of the performance, and if it’s off by any degree, he’s on you and he’s engineering it so you’re back on the right path. But yeah, I was really grateful. It’s one of the happiest experiences I’ve ever had on a film set.

 

Louis Virtel It’s crazy that you get to actually insert your, I guess, sort of real personality in there because you have a sort of just casually funny, you know, droll energy. How often do you actually feel you get to do that?

 

Matt Smith Well, I think everything in a way is like with acting is, I don’t know really, it’s hard to explain, but it’s like everything is a sort of return to yourself in a way, because you are the filter, you are the lens, so it’s all sort of you. But, you know, if you’re playing Charles Manson or Patrick Bateman or, you know, I’m doing a project next about a guy called Buddy Monroe, who’s a fucking lunatic, and it’s not that, you know, that you’re pretending ultimately to be someone else, that’s what you That’s the joy of it, but… I don’t know, it’s a funny one. It’s hard to explain really, but it’s all through your own lens in a way. I guess one person’s hamlet is different to another person’s hamlet because one person history and emotional makeup is their own and one person’s isn’t. So it’s like, yeah, you’re always kind of returning to yourself as a reference I think, if that makes sense. Sound like a sort of wanky actor but…

 

Louis Virtel You were fabulous in the movie. Thank you so much for being here. And I just want to say, by the way, I so regret that I did not get to see you in Enemy of the People last year. We had Jeremy Strong do it here. And I know you were absolutely fabulous in that. I love that play too.

 

Matt Smith Yeah, it’s a great play. I mean, that was with a director called Thomas Ostermeyer, who’s got a theater company in Berlin called the Schauburner and he’s someone I’d wanted to work with. Just, I mean you should google his trailer when you go now. He did a Richard the Third in, a famous Richard the third and you’ll see how fucking mad and brilliant he is. Google Thomas Ostemeyer Richard the 3rd and there’s a there’s a trailer for it and like this is wonderful German actor and he is a He’s worked with Thomas for years and he’s like on a microphone. He’s a really inventive director. And so I was thrilled I got to work with him because he was, you know, on my list of people that I’d been chasing down as actors do.

 

Louis Virtel I will look that up, because I deeply wanted to see that. I want to recommend caught stealing again. It is a deep thrill. I mean, like I was shocked several times. You will literally hold onto your seat. So just be prepared, everybody.

 

Matt Smith Thanks so much for having me on guys, it’s nice to meet you both.

 

Louis Virtel Nice to meet you too. Fabulous to have you here. Thank you to Matt Smith. Caught Stealing comes out this weekend. When we’re back, more keep it.

 

[AD]

 

Louis Virtel Last week, Patti Smith announced a reissue of her seminal album Horses in honor of its 50th anniversary. And Fleetwood Mac’s self-titled album also hit its 50-th this summer, which got me and Ben thinking about the albums we’ll never stop spinning, of which there are several, so we’re going to pick some of those here. But Ben, before we get into our picks, I’m thrilled to have had a fabulous past with you because we, in the year of 2011, went to a Prince concert, which was at the Forum, which is a legendary stay where you could get cheap Prince tickets. I think they were $25. I don’t know what was going on with prints at the time, but this was completely anathema to any previous version of prints.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, he was doing like the 21 night gig at the forum. And what was crazy was I had reached out to like a bunch of people being like, does anyone wanna come with me to see Prince? And you were the only one who was like, yes, I will come. I was like what is wrong with these people? It’s a Prince show for $25. And so I was actually so grateful because first of all, it was just like a fun thing for us to do. And so we went and like it is probably the single, I think it’s the best concert I’ve ever gone to.

 

Louis Virtel It remains the best concert I’ve ever gone to and I’m positive it will not be surpassed.

 

Ben Mandelker It will not be, especially because what happened at that concert will forever be special and can never ever be truly replicated, which is that, well, Shaka Khan was the opener. She was great. And I remember, I will always remember sitting next to you and I saw this, like, there was like this wobbly mass of hair coming up from the seats, from the audience, from the audience, if you will, is the technical term, uh, went up the staircase. And I remember you. Said, Oh my God, it’s Whitney Houston.

 

Louis Virtel I absolutely knew from the hair shape it was Whitney Houston. I’m telling you, I saw a quarter of an eighth of her hair and I knew it was Whitney Houston

 

Ben Mandelker When I tell you it was so fast how quickly you recognize her hair and I feel like I’m pretty good and I have a pretty good like celebrity hair I myself but you were on it and I was like Louis what is Louis talking about and sure enough Whitney Houston came up on stage right there with Shaka Khan and she basically took Shaka Khans microphone I’m-

 

Louis Virtel Imagine her not taking it.

 

Ben Mandelker Yes. And like the stage was a giant print symbol. And I will always remember Chaka Khan’s up there, a star in her own right, an icon in her right. And Whitney Houston takes this microphone, not rudely, just takes it appropriately. And she walks down that print symbol, which is like a runway. And I just remember her going to the edge of that stage. And it was like, we are now at a Whitney Houston concert.

 

Louis Virtel No, I didn’t know what had happened. And also it was clear that she was kind of just in the audience. So it was this sort of guerrilla moment of Whitney Houston, like arriving and we’re all fine with it and it’s rare that Prince is performing anyway. So maybe something this strange is totally fine. And she sounded pretty good. Pretty good to start. And then I don’t know, I don’t know what she ended up singing because she didn’t do any Whitney Houston song.

 

Ben Mandelker We were all expecting that she might do I’m Every Woman with Shaka Khan, which they did not do. Right. It felt like an obvious choice. Crap.

 

Louis Virtel If I had to rank the choices for what they would do, I might pick I’m Every Woman. But then eventually, I believe Whitney Houston vocalized and a growl occurred.

 

Ben Mandelker What happened was, so she did like one or two songs up there with Shaka, and then she went back down to the audience. And then later on, if I remember correctly, she came back up when Prince was on stage, and she did the same thing, she did, like, the catwalk thing, and this time she, like a weird croak came out. I just remember she went for a note, it was like a saliva sound.

 

Louis Virtel Right, yes. We were hearing something internal.

 

Ben Mandelker Something was in there, and she very quickly returned the mic and scuttled off.

 

Louis Virtel I felt like she was maybe scuttled off, as in somebody hot bro.

 

Ben Mandelker Rushed her out. And I think that actually she went to rehab like a day or so later. Yes, correct. And that was actually one of her last public performances because that was 2011, that was in May.

 

Louis Virtel She died in 2012. She died.

 

Ben Mandelker Like six months later she did like a performance the night before the Grammys and then she died I think that night or the next day and so she may have done some other things in that interim but it was definitely one of the last times and I remember thinking at that time when Prince was doing these shows he had all these celebrity guests coming up on stage and there was like every show had like a ton of them and we had Whitney Houston and then I think Cedric the entertainer came up onstage at one point.

 

Louis Virtel Shockingly, I don’t remember that.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, somehow it was not as iconic.

 

Louis Virtel Said that they’re not as entertaining as i call him

 

Ben Mandelker And I remember, and like everyone got these crazy long encores. And I remembered thinking like, oh man, we only, we only got Whitney Houston and we had no encores and now actually, I think it was probably the most legendary thing to have seen.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, no, and also if you had told me at the time, oh, and Shaka’s gonna easily outlive them by a decade. I would have been like, thanks, creepy wizard, no way.

 

Ben Mandelker I know, it was an amazing concert on its own, but the fact that we actually got to see Whitney Houston and Prince sharing the stage together is… It’s zany. It’s…

 

Louis Virtel It’s like one of those like shirts you buy on Hollywood Boulevard that has like Tupac next to John Lennon. That’s like a tribute. You know?

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, you know and Cedric the entertainer. Yeah, I don’t wanna like you know, let’s let’s make sure we get all the icons in there

 

Louis Virtel I just want to say that when you go to a concert like that, you then have to cope with that memory for the rest of your life, as you’re probably hearing right now. It’s such an intense memory. All right. Before we get into our picks, did you notice any through lines in the albums that stick with you? I’m guessing female vocalists, but I could be wrong.

 

Ben Mandelker You know what, um, most I chose three, I chose three that were really two female vocalists, one not female. One, I think I will probably lose a bunch of cool cred by saying it, but I have to admit it’s, it’s in my rotation. Why don’t we start there since you seem troubled. Okay, everyone. Well, I feel like I did a really good job coming here on to keep it and seeming really cool, tossing around pop culture references. Yeah, it all over. It’s all going to end right now. Uh, I’m a big Dave Matthews fan.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, well, that’s not that old. Yeah, yeah. Well, actually. Wait, is Under the Table in Dreaming? What album are we talking about?

 

Ben Mandelker We’re gonna talk about understable dreaming. We’ll even do crash. They came out both like 95 96 Yeah, so I mean those are like approaching 30 years old. I went to a Dave Matthews concert last week alone

 

Louis Virtel So did my friend Jared, he was telling me it was great.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, it was it was great. And what was hard for me was going there and realizing that like everyone was old.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, sure. Including me, including me. You’re like the monkey seeing the dot on its head. You’re like, I’m old.

 

Ben Mandelker And that’s what made me realize like, oh, this album that I listen to all the time is now it’s an, it’s an old album. Yeah. 30 years old. That’s been with me in my life. So yeah, I’m, I listen that all the time still.

 

Louis Virtel No, but also again, that will happen to every album like there will be a Sabrina Carpenter short and sweet 20th anniversary show and everybody will be, you know, 43.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah. It’s actually, you know, I went to the Taylor Swift, uh, the era tour. I saw it in Stockholm of all places because it had already done its whole big North American tour. And I realized that I’ve been going to all these concerts of like artists, you know? Uh, like nostalgia, nostalgia tours, right? Where, you know I saw Madonna, I saw Bruce Springsteen, I felt Collins. And a lot of times they’ll show videos of them when they’re younger, you know at Madonna, you’d see some shots of her. During Blonde Ambition and you think, wow, what must have been like to see, like to be at one of those iconic tours? And I thought, you know what, I’m gonna go see Taylor Swift.

 

Louis Virtel Right. I mean, I kind of get it. It’s just a cultural moment. Like, why not just witness it? Yeah.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, and and so I don’t want to like go to a Taylor Swift show in 20 or 30 years and be like Oh, I wonder what it would have been like to have gone to that era’s tour and I’m like I can go So anyway, it’s in the spirit of that that Yeah, like Dave Matthews is basically a nostalgia act for me, you know I’m not a huge fan of their new stuff, but I listen, you you know to crash a lot. Oh wow

 

Louis Virtel I guess I’m not surprised in a way, but you also have sort of like a sporty background, don’t you? So I feel like there is a kind of broke component to you. I’m surprised or rattled by this. Please don’t be rattled. I had two corn albums growing up. I grew up, I mean, I was in a hard rock growing up, so some of that still lingers. Like I love like Led Zeppelin and stuff.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, I mean, I was in a fraternity, you know, I was closeted for a while. So I like lived that straight life, you know for a while. So the Dave Matthews was like part of that. But I actually really love the Dave Mathews music. And so yeah, but I have like a I play fancy football, right? I do weird things like that. Yeah.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, no, you contain multitudes. I’m glad to hear it though. My taste runs old Like I’m secretly 100 years older than I actually am. Okay, great So like among very old of I still played tapestry by Carole King all the time Wow Which to me the number one funny thing about tapestry, but carol king if you’re not familiar She’s like one of the most vaunted songwriters of all time She and her then husband Jerry Goffin wrote some of the defining rock songs girl group songs of the 1960s And then carol King sort of releasing solo albums. This whole journey is chronicled in the musical Beautiful with Jesse Mueller. Yes. But she released this album, Tapestry, that contained some previously known songs, some new songs, and it became a sensation that was near the top of the Billboard charts for years. She won the Grammy for album of the year. But to me, the funniest thing about that, about Tapestry is we treat it like this album of like grandmotherly wisdom. You know, she’s in her sweaters and there’s a cat on the cover. You know how old she was when that album came out? And we treated her like a fucking industry veteran. 28 years old. That’s crazy. That’s craaazy. We literally are like, oh, here she is, near death, Carole King. By the way, she’s still with us. Lives in Idaho, looks fabulous. Yes, she does. But the songs in that album, it’s like, it’s weird because I tend to prefer songwriters who are, have like a sardonic edge. You know, there’s like a 90s kind of nastiness to a lot of the music I love. I remember you would always talk about Liz Fair. I’m a huge Liz Fair fan. Yes, I love Liz Fair, that’s an album that’s even older than Under the Table and Dreaming. And they’re very good friends, Liz and Dave Matthews. But like something about Carole King is like, she never wavered from her kind of romantic point of view, and yet it was never cloying. Like, it felt very realistic and lived in, even if she’s literally writing a song about how she might give up living in the city and move to the suburbs. You know, and this is of course the woman who wrote Pleasant Valley Sunday by the monkeys, but there’s just something about her that’s very eternal and like not trying to be cool even for one second.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah. She’s just living in her truth, in her music. And she was from that school of like, Carly Simon.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, Joni Mitchell. I was gonna bring up Joni, too, yes.

 

Ben Mandelker Joni Mitchell. You know, in fact, I have just added another Nostalgia album onto my, onto my lists. I’ve grown it to four because also sort of around that same time, I actually later in life, like only about like five or six years ago, did I enter my Linda Ronstadt phase?

 

Louis Virtel Well, you’re never going to leave it because there’s not a second Linda Ronstadt. So if you want to listen to something like Linda Rostadt, you can only listen to Linda Ronstad.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, absolutely. Linda Ronstadt. I actually don’t, because this is sort of on the fly, I actually remember the name of the album.

 

Louis Virtel Heart like a wheel is my favorite. Heart like wheel, I have that.

 

Ben Mandelker I have that one, but that’s not the one that has Blue Bayou on it. Yeah. The one that blue Bayou, whatever album that is, it’s just so beautiful. It’s so wonderful. And what also strikes me is how free artists were to do covers of songs.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yeah, you know, and she herself was not a songwriter, so she would cover everything.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, she would cover everything and so there was always lots of there’s covers at tumbling dice. She did cover a cover of the idea that this

 

Louis Virtel The idea that this woman only covered one Rolling Stone song in her life and it was that fucking good She should I mean she should have covered exile in Main Street. She should have done the whole thing. Yeah

 

Ben Mandelker Yes. And, but also the way her voice can go from like tender and sweet to just like strong, but aching.

 

Louis Virtel Rage. I think that her X factor is like she was not afraid to sound angry, you know, even if she is this like power kind of Celine type vocalist, you know.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, no, so I’m like really happy that I finally entered my, my Linda Ronsat phase because she’s just wonderful. And also not for nothing, it’s not on that album, but when it shows up on my iTunes every now and then, I don’t know much, but I know I love you with Aaron Neville.

 

Louis Virtel I wouldn’t have intuitively ever put them together and they were just perfect.

 

Ben Mandelker It was just the way their voices both like little together like two feathers. There’s a lilters. Yeah. Yeah, they should have been a folk duo called the lilters

 

Louis Virtel I think the oldest album I still play is If You Can Believe Your Eyes and Ears by the Mamas and the Papas, which is 1965. I think of Carpenter’s, Bee Gees, and ABBA as the ultimate harmonizers. But really, Mamas & The Papas and the Beach Boys came before them, and I need to respect that a little bit more. It’s so interesting that people are obsessed with the drama within Fleetwood Mac. Guys, read one biography of the Mamas And The PapAs. They are sick.

 

Ben Mandelker And again, Nepo Baby, they produced a lot of Nepo Babies. I love Mackenzie Phillips. And they have infiltrated all of Hollywood. Yes, Bijou, yes, we can keep going.

 

Louis Virtel Over the plays. Mackenzie Phillips also big.

 

Ben Mandelker Board gamer, like you.

 

Louis Virtel Is she really? Yes, she is obsessed with it. I met her at a game night once. This woman knew everything.

 

Ben Mandelker Okay, I need to connect with her because you know what? My distant cousin was once a cast member on One Day at a Time. Who’s your distant cousin? Richard Master.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes, he was in the early seasons of it, and then he died on the show.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, he was Pre-Schneider, right?

 

Louis Virtel Right. Yes. No, no, Schneider was always there, but he was, he was in a relationship with Bonnie Franklin. Yes, well, that’s my, that is so

 

Ben Mandelker I’m a huge fan of that song. On my mom’s side, so it’s all connected to France.

 

Louis Virtel With Ford Coppola, I’d like to add. Jesus Christ, power family, power, family. Mamas and the Puppas, obviously California Dreamin’s on this album, Monday Monday. Their cover of Spanish Harlem, which if we’re listening to Spanish Harlem I prefer this other woman I was gonna bring up, Aretha Franklin, Young Gifted in Black. That’s when she was always a soulful artist. This is when she went Soul Train. If you know Rock Steady, that’s my favorite Aretha Franklin song. Yeah, I’m an Aretha legend. That’s 1972, yeah.

 

Ben Mandelker I would say probably in terms of like the biggest nostalgia old album that I listen to all the time would have to be Private Dancer by Tina Turner.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes, it’s 84. Yes, the greatest comeback in pop history.

 

Ben Mandelker Absolutely. I still remember as a child walking through Cal doors. I don’t know if you had them where you were growing up, but there’s like a, a store. It was like a target of like the eighties. Oh, you, I remember walking through cal doors and seeing the private dancer album and Tina Turner sort of like on like a rock or something. And it’s like, she’s got like a black backdrop and she sort of has this strange stance with one leg out in front, this one one leg going back out this way. And her hair is big. And I remember being like entranced by this image and my mom actually bought it. My mom was like, Oh, I actually wanted to buy that. And I would listen to that album all the time. And I continue to listen to it. I mean, I have Tina Turner’s greatest hits. I mean Tina Turner is like, I grew up on Tina Turner. I continue listen to her endlessly. I follow her Instagram where her estate post videos constantly, I watched the documentary two times. Like Private Dancer is a brilliant, wonderful album. And obviously it’s got what’s got to do with it and Private Danzer, but it has, it’s deep. There’s like a song called 1984, which is really strange. Yeah. It’s so good, Steel Claws, like this rock and roll song where she just goes off. It’s a, it’s, so it’s an iconic album. I can’t stay.

 

Louis Virtel Which is such an interesting take on that song. It has this sort of like sinister thump.

 

Ben Mandelker To it. It’s amazing. I loved that when I was a kid. That sound just made me so delighted.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, my favorite song by her is on the next album, Break Every Rule, Typical Male. I love Typical male. Yeah, which also has that like, a little bit of world music in it. You can hear like the sounds of like the marimba. It was very much like-

 

Ben Mandelker It was very much like mid 80s 80s music loved sort of like a reggae kind of quality to it, you know

 

Louis Virtel Yes, no, I love that album and her. And by the way, so quotable, every time I watch an interview clip of her, she is slaying. She’s like, I know I’m attractive.

 

Ben Mandelker You know, just like immediately intimidating. She’s, I mean, like Tina Turner is like, you know, she’s like the icon of my life.

 

Louis Virtel Are you a Joni Mitchell person?

 

Ben Mandelker So I don’t know much Joni Mitchell, however, I started to become Joni Mitchell curious after that video went viral of like her at the Newport Jazz Festival, then she performed the same thing at the Grammys, and then someone gave me a ticket to see her at The Hollywood Bowl, so I went and saw that. Oh. And it was, you know, that was an exquisite, wonderful show. And so I felt actually very privileged because I was amongst lots of people grew up with her and I felt privileged to be in a space. As someone who didn’t know her music very well, but you know, she’s her lyrics are obviously excellent and there was a wonderful Kennedy Center Tribute to her a few years ago that also made me even more interested in her. So yeah

 

Louis Virtel So I’m starting my journey. With something, I listen to all of Joni Mitchell’s albums, including her 60s ones. That’s among the oldest stuff I still spin. Something I’m fascinated with by her though is like, so everybody agrees that the album Blue is fabulous, but I feel like if you, when people name her favorite song, a song that always comes up is Free Man in Paris. If you know that it’s from Kort and Spark and it’s a good pop song. It is literally just a song about how David Geffen would prefer to go on more vacations. I’m like, guys, this is the least important thing she ever wrote. This is like one of the like emotional diarists of our time. It’s such a funny song. Like it’s literally him being like, I deal with people on the telephone all day. And God, do I love going to Paris. It’s a crazy song for her to be like at the top of her, like most listened to or whatever. That’s my gripe about Joni Mitchell. And of course, I listen to Carly Simon all the time. If you don’t know the song Why from the 80s, which is produced by Nile Rogers, it is a banger and people are covering it all the Now honey

 

Ben Mandelker Honey Dijon just did a cover of it. Listen, I’m always shocked when people don’t know about Let the River Run. Oh, Oscar-winning, best original song, 1988. A beautiful, wonderful song that I play all the time. And also, it’s like, talk about the sounds of the world coming in. And that great intro to a movie. I mean, the Statue of Liberty is swirling around. I would have liked that.

 

Louis Virtel We’re talking about the movie Working Girl, which if you haven’t seen it, everybody is hot and awesome in it, including Sigourney Weaver.

 

Ben Mandelker What a perfect wrap up to that, or pin, or whatever you want to call it, yeah. Yeah. When we’re back, it’s keep it.

 

Louis Virtel And now it’s time for our favorite segment of the episode. It’s Keep It. Ben, you look like you’re about to pop off. I’m gonna pop off, that’s what they used to say on Bad Girls Club.

 

Ben Mandelker With a pan, you know, bang it. Here’s what, what needs to be kept. The new season of Project Runway.

 

Louis Virtel We’ve actually discussed a bit on this show.

 

Ben Mandelker Okay, well, honestly, Project Runway on Freeform, I think is terrible. I think that it has fallen apart. This is not the Project Runways that I want to watch. I think Law Roach is very funny. You know, Law Roach is Law Roach, he does the Law Roach thing. He’s very blunt. He’s acerbic . He will say what’s on his mind, but even he cannot save this season. They brought it to Freeform and they decided that they were going to reality show it up. And this is a show where you see professionals trying to break into the industry, being judged by other professionals. And the whole vibe of Project Runway are these sort of regular people who happen to be wonderful with fashion and with their art and they come in and they try to do their best and they are judged for it and they will excel or they will go their way. But this version of it, we have like all sorts of reality show elements that I never asked for and are just inappropriate here on Project Runways. We have things where, for instance, They turn it on to the contestants and say, how about you vote off someone today? Like, what is that about? You guys have teams. You have to choose someone from your team to that team into this team to the that team. It’s like way too much almost like silliness. It just feels like it’s any other reality show out there right now. There’ve been tons of Project Runway imitators over the years and none have ever been able to come close to Project Runway because Project Runway sort of is more of prestige reality TV and it holds itself to a certain standard and by going this route, Project Runway has totally just cheapened itself and become like any other generic reality show and there’s all these funny, there are all these little things with captions that are trying to be funny.

 

Louis Virtel The captions are really a bit of a nuisance.

 

Ben Mandelker They’re like they’re just like not funny enough. You have these twins you have everyone sort of like playing a character Instead of just being there to do work and to do the best that they can everyone is really over-the-top Everyone you have Like you have Utica who comes on like drag race alum who is a contestant this year. Yes Like in full drag, which is great. I mean the drag was actually amazing Yeah, but like it just feels very much like a reality show now and it is a reality show. But it used to feel more like a reality competition. And I feel like they’ve just cheapened the entire show.

 

Louis Virtel Well, again, I also feel like getting rid of Tim Gunn got rid of a certain kind of sophistication we associated with the show, even though, again I like Christian Siriano and I love how fast he is with the input. Because it’s like, oh, I would not distrust that. But two things I’m having a problem with this season are, one, putting the elimination in the next episode is a complete pain in the ass. And it also acquaints you with the fact that you don’t really care who was eliminated. Like there’s not enough suspense to bring you to the next episodes. Like you almost forget who did badly. There’s something about the season that’s like not sticking. Also, it’s like what you just said, they had contestants vote off one of the other players and I was surprised they even left it in. One of the, other contestants on the show was like, this is ridiculous or something like she literally said it on the air and it was almost exposing how contestants are sort of rebelling against the show like we are.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, it feels almost cheap. They did a runway show in the work room that just like I was judged by only law for no reason. And just the first episode they did a runaway show in like the lobby of the building where you could see exit signs and it just it looks rinky dink. It just feels cheap. It feels low rent. It’s just not the project runway that I’m accustomed to or that I like. I think it should be aspirational and I think there should be an element of when we see it. We’re also almost like learning something and instead it just feels like they’ve decided to put these personalities, you know, front and center and amp them up in a way that I just feel like is totally unappealing.

 

Louis Virtel They’re also just hurting for a good personality. I have to say, like, nobody is really, like hilarious. There’s a lot of, like try hard, like people try calling themselves fabulous. Remember, it’s like, I don’t believe that. I don’t even believe you thought of that. I believe somebody kind of fed that to you, you know, which is just a bad feeling.

 

Ben Mandelker You sort of get the sense that there’s a producer off to the side telling those twins, like, if you don’t like what they’re saying, just vocalize, say how you feel because this is your form. And so they’re like sassing off to the judges a lot. It all just, it’s just, and honestly, like Law Roach, he is like very entertaining, but he put someone in the bottom three who had like a pretty decent outfit and he put them in the bomb three because he didn’t like, I think the shoes, the styling, the accessories. He’s like, otherwise this is a gorgeous dress, but like the fact that he put those shoes with it, I’m like, that’s not right.

 

Louis Virtel And it’s also not what you’re judging.

 

Ben Mandelker That’s not what you’re judging, but that’s, I think, his specific area, so he responds to that. So I just feel like the show has lost its way. I feel like it came to a new home and they tried to put a stamp on it, and sometimes this happens with shows where they just try to revamp it for no good reason. They should just, it was always working and just keep going forward with it.

 

Louis Virtel I feel like this show goes through waves though like when it moved to Lifetime I thought it had immediately sunk and then I would say It got better. You know and like there was a season 21 a couple years ago was amazing So I’m hopeful it will come back and even like some of that like the Carly Claus years were really good.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, I like those years as well. But I think that like right now, it’s sort of in a…

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, it is hurting.

 

Ben Mandelker It’s in a free fall.

 

Louis Virtel It’s tough.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah

 

Louis Virtel Um, my Keep It goes to a quote I’m sure we all read, but it still sort of blew my mind. It belongs to a man named Snoop Dogg who, you know I hate railing against people in the game show community. He hosted the Joker’s Wild, not the original, not original, but apparently Snoop dog took his grandchild to go see the movie Lightyear and it couldn’t have gone worse and it wouldn’t have gone worse. He goes, it fucked me up. I’m like scared to go to the movies now. Y’all throwing me in the middle of shit that I don’t have an answer for. It threw me for a loop. And what is he talking about? I guess in the movie Lightyear, there’s two female characters who have a baby and the grandchild asked Snoop, well, how is that possible? Just from a science perspective, how could they possibly do that? They just said, she and she have a, they’re both women. How does she have baby? These are kids. We have to show that at this age. They’re going to ask questions. I don’t have the answer. Not only is this so stupid that like you’re so vexed about how to answer a very simple question about the about the existence of queer people.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah. And also by the way, how many other questions can you not answer? Like kids ask questions all the time that you just cannot answer.

 

Louis Virtel Right. Improv. But it’s so funny because this is such an outdated problem to have that there is literally stand up about this very question. Louis CK, who I’m loathe to bring up in a defensive way to be on his side, has a whole bit about how gay people want to get married and you don’t want them to because you can’t talk to your fucking kids for five minutes.

 

Ben Mandelker Exactly.

 

Louis Virtel You know? It’s like, you should be privy to this conversation even a little bit. And I think, in a way, we’ve conferred a coolness on Snoop Dogg that is perhaps unearned.

 

Ben Mandelker Maybe he’s sort of, I mean, sometimes Snoot Dogg sometimes does feel like a little bit like a blank slate that we just project things, a canvas that we add our things to. But I wonder, have we been doing that? Because there’s part of me that feels like, how are you friends with Martha Stewart? Right. But then you have this.

 

Louis Virtel Not that she’s, again, does she like gay people?

 

Ben Mandelker I don’t know.

 

Louis Virtel Are we sure?

 

Ben Mandelker But there have to be gays around her.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, you would think there was like three or four.

 

Ben Mandelker At least that like you’re gonna be friends with this woman and you’re actually gonna capitalize off of it But then also be homophobic. I don’t know it just like this is just like lazy homophobia almost

 

Louis Virtel Well it’s also just like, again, if you thought about gay people going to movies, heterosexual relationships are forced on them every time they see a movie. So imagine being that, imagine, assume they’re people, like you, Snoop Dogg, a person. Imagine they’re a people. And they have to think, oh, once again, it feels like my people don’t exist. You have the opposite problem. You only get straight couples. And the appearance of one couple you think a gay couple shatters. Your world. You can see how that’s problematic for the gay people, not you.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, this whole thing of like, how do we talk to our children about this or like, they’re too young to hear about this. You know what? Like children hear a lot of stuff really young too. And it’s fine. And actually maybe sometimes the younger the better. And that way it’s like normalizes it for them that it’s not some freak occurrence that is that like that hat they have to be sheltered from their whole life. It’s just part of the world around them.

 

Louis Virtel Also, if they’re asking questions, it sounds like they’re probably capable of understanding the answer. It’s not like you say the answer, then their brain cracks and an alien flies out.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is just it’s it’s kind of to me shocking that this is coming from Snoop Dogg of all people.

 

Louis Virtel No, I didn’t know he was capable of this stupidity, frankly.

 

Ben Mandelker Yeah, I mean, I actually thought he was seemed a little bit more evolved. Yeah, you know, but I guess not.

 

Louis Virtel The gin and juice has gotten to him and so it’s certain you’re pithy loser quote. I don’t even know what to say to it about it It’s so upsetting

 

Ben Mandelker I know. I feel like there’s like some sassy rebuke to him. Like, well, I don’t want to have to explain your outfit, you know, but I don’t even have the energy to craft it.

 

Louis Virtel It’s just a bad quote. No, it sucks. Anyway, that is our show. Ben, thank you for being fabulous as you are, for explaining Love Island to me, and for existing in the love of Sigourney Weaver with me.

 

Ben Mandelker Oh my goodness, thank you. Thank you for being the one person who knows what it feels like to be in that Prince concert with me. Oh, please. And seeing Whitney Houston come on stage. That’s something that will always bond us for the rest of our lives.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, no, we went through the fire, quote Shaka.

 

Ben Mandelker We did, we did. She sounded great. That was by the way, the headline. She sounded the best out of all of them.

 

Louis Virtel Yes. And also, by the way, Prince was dancing his ass off at that concert.

 

Ben Mandelker And those three women who came up during the intermissions and sang that cover of Angel by Sarah McLachlan. I still remember it to this day. Right, oh my God. We’re not done coping with this yet. We’re, not. Lewis, thank you so much for having me. It really is an honor to be here. And where can the people find you, damn it? Well, my podcast is Watch Where Crap Ends, which is on all the podcast platforms. And then my Instagram is at WatchWhatCrappens, and I’m at Ben Mandelker on Instagram and on Twitter and all the places. And I also have a. A sub stack, nbdfancy.com where I write about food, which has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about today.

 

Louis Virtel I’m sick of how many goddamn interests you have.

 

Ben Mandelker I’m in my hobby phase.

 

Louis Virtel From Dave Matthews to knitting to food.

 

Ben Mandelker I know, football, it’s weird. It’s gross.

 

Louis Virtel You just like things. This life is going well for you.

 

Ben Mandelker I like things, I do.

 

Louis Virtel That’s our show. We will see you in two weeks after Keep It Comes Back after the long Labor Day holiday.

 

Ira Madison III Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Louis Virtel Keep It is a Crooked Media Production. Our producer is Bill McGrath. Our associate producer is Kennedy Hill. And our executive producers are Ira Madison III, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James.

 

Ira Madison III Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gajewski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centeno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.

 

Louis Virtel Our head of production is Matt DeGroot and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

 

Ira Madison III As always, Keep It as filmed in front of a live studio audience.