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On this week’s Keep It, Ira says hello from Fire Island, then Louis and guest co-host Charleton Lamb discuss Billboard’s 75 Best R&B Artists list, Brokeback Mountain’s 20th Anniversary, Katy Perry and Orlando Bloom’s break-up, novelty popcorn buckets, and the continuing hunt for a song of the summer. Ira and Louis are also joined by Allison Williams to discuss Megan 2.0.

 

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TRANSCRIPT

Ira Madison III [AD]

 

Ira Madison III And we are back with an all-new episode of Keep It. I’m Ira Madison III.

 

And I’m Louis Virtel. I still am on Keep It. I’m sticking with Keep It!

 

Ira Madison III Let me tell you, I’ve always wanted to say outpouring in relation to myself.

 

Louis Virtel Oh sure.

 

Ira Madison III The outpour of comments and messages and DMs and YouTube comments and the Spotify comment section is hot–hotter than usual for our episodes.

 

Louis Virtel When I saw like 600 comments on your Instagram, I was like, you’re just waiting out there.

 

Ira Madison III Where you bitches been?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, shocking.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, speaking of where people have been, I’m on Fire Island, and I am, the girls are gonna be mad again, I’m not doing this episode this week.

 

Louis Virtel We will be hearing you during the interview with Allison Williams coming up, but yes, you are gone. You will be back soon for the remainder of your episodes on this podcast, which you have to do. I talked to Crooked, they said you have do it.

 

Ira Madison III I’m out this week because I’m on Fire Island, but don’t worry, my last official day is July 30th, so you’ve got a lot more of me on Keep It to come. Well, not next week though, because we’re on vacation for the fourth.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I’ll be doing nothing, please. I’m going to look like full Weekend at Bernie’s, like propped up, like on a chair with my tongue out.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, but we have the fantastic Charleton Lamb here, and this is gonna be a great episode. There’s gonna be some justice for one actor.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, yes. Charleton is a big Tom Cruise stan, and you will hear about that this episode. So get ready. Yeah. Who is it? Well, I’m right here. I mean, I think he’s fine. I loved Magnolia, but moving on.

 

Ira Madison III But anyway, I’m going to leave the episode in your capable hands, along with Charleton, and I’m sure it’s going to be fantastic.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, we have a guest host this week, and I don’t believe you’ve met this man before. He is a good friend of mine. He is an alum of Spotify, but he works in marketing at Spotter, which is like some pro-YouTuber association. He is hilarious, and every time I run into him, I am like doubled over in laughter. Maybe there’s just something wrong with me, but I want you to join in the illness. Here’s Charleton Lamb. Welcome to Keep It. Charleton, say hi.

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, happy to be here. I kind of wish I was on Fire Island, but this works too.

 

Louis Virtel I’m thrilled to have you and also let’s just talk about the professional vocal tones you are already bringing to this podcast. I feel so bad for people who listen to this Podcast because some of us just have a naturally, I don’t know how else to put it, gay shrill voice, whereas some people just like belong on the radio. Are you always complimented for your voice when people meet you?

 

Charleton Lamb I am actually, I recently was in an Uber for maybe 10 minutes and the man was like, do me this one favor, do me this favor, can you say coming next week to theaters? And I did do that and I did that for that man and he was elated, delighted.

 

Louis Virtel Wow, people have like a movie phone fetish and they just inflict it on you.

 

Charleton Lamb People do a movie from Fetish, and there are versions of that do happen in the bedroom as well.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, okay. Well, we’ll tap into that later. I’m so glad to have gotten the opening notes of it just now. As I just said, you’re a Spotify veteran. So I have to ask you first, what’s happening with you on the song of the summer front? It remains the most pressing issue here at Keep It. It’s a red alert every week because apparently we just don’t have one this summer. I have to say I am supportive of the new Carole G’s song Latina Forever, though I don’t believe I can run out into the streets and yell the words Latina forever just at anybody. So I don’t really know what to do with myself here. But I feel like you’re not a Carole G-Stand.

 

Charleton Lamb I’m not a Carol G Stan, I have nothing against the girl, it’s not something that has ever grabbed me in any way and like the fact that she is so so so popular on like a global scale, it kind of like annoys me.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I’ll say this about Carol G. She has the name of like, somebody who is a helper at a preschool, like an old lady, but then her name is but then she’s not that she’s like young hot Carol G, it really like boggles the census.

 

Charleton Lamb It really makes me really uncomfortable.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, who was our last Carol? You know what I mean? Channing that’s what I mean Who only died recently, but she was 171. Yes Um my mom yeah Long may

 

Charleton Lamb Hello. She’s got some bops. She is just holding on.

 

Louis Virtel What are you listening to this summer? What actually speaks to you in terms of it’s 2025 and we have to jam to something and we don’t seem to agree.

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, I would like to talk about three women.

 

Louis Virtel Not the Edward Albee play. That’s three tall women.

 

Charleton Lamb No, I’m not not not at Robbie went to my high school, you know, I would like to say pink panther

 

Louis Virtel Yes, I’m a big fan.

 

Charleton Lamb She’s doing everything right, in my opinion.

 

Louis Virtel This is a British singer who is also a producer. And I think she’s working with William Orbit coming up, but the songs are consistently good and you would never turn them off, which is important to the song of the summer because sometimes I’m in the pool and I can’t get to the mic.

 

Charleton Lamb Would never turn them off. And in fact, they’re all about 90 seconds long, so you’re probably gonna listen to them twice by accident. Love that, love that about her. Always performing with her pocketbook on stage.

 

Louis Virtel How very Aretha, who would just walk out with a person, she’s like, don’t take this from me.

 

Charleton Lamb It’s iconic, and it’s just like, I can leave at any moment. At any moment, I could leave. Like, my favorite moment of hers, she found, okay, do you remember the twink that was dancing to Tinashe Nasty? Yes, right. Nasty Girl, last year, that iconic twink wherever he is. I wanna say British, just based on the face, but I don’t know. But anyway, Pink Pantherous did, also I’m here for Pink’s stans, like, just taking the name Pink away from Alicia Moore. Sorry.

 

Louis Virtel Yes

 

Charleton Lamb Um, pink, she posted a video with that twink, like found, found him. And then her caption was, I cannot do nothing with the waste. And I think that is. So beautiful.

 

Louis Virtel I haven’t thought about Pink in a minute. God, what’s she up to besides, you know, looking like a ripped gym teacher?

 

Charleton Lamb Probably selling out arenas.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, right. No, being the world’s most popular person.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah, yeah, yeah like I have nothing to say about pink because like it it like it would never reach her like she is she’s too popular

 

Louis Virtel No, she goes deeper than Taylor Swift, in a way. She’s an American institution.

 

Charleton Lamb Down. So like there is no criticism that needs to be leveled against that bastion of…

 

Louis Virtel American culture

 

Charleton Lamb American music, yeah.

 

Louis Virtel I was going to say, have we heard the new Cardi B yet?

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, I’m about to bring my Spotify bonafides to this conversation. The Cardi B song, it’s amazing. It’s like, it is a distillation of everything we love about Cardi. It’s the exact kind of beat. It’s that exact kind playfulness. Her team of writers has done it again. Like, it so good. And it’s really playful. It’s really clever. Here’s what I have to say. They announced yesterday, the album is coming out in September. The album is called, Am I the Drama?

 

Louis Virtel Not sure. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know about that title. Sinead O’Connor may She rest had an album near the end of her career called I’m not bossy. I’m the boss I’m like, you can’t just use like Twitter as a word bank and then turn it into an album

 

Charleton Lamb Totally, it’s like a girl. I don’t know but I guess the writers have left the room. Yeah, she can’t And then but no, but they are putting on the album Wap and up these are five years old songs five years. Old songs five year old songs. And so already already This album is like the only the second album ever to have two number ones by a female rapper

 

Louis Virtel Oh, I can’t be doing this no already already the

 

Charleton Lamb album is platinum. And it will not come out until September. And this is a move, she did this on Vodak Yellow. Vodek Yellow came out a year before Invasion of Privacy. And now she’s like, well, let’s do it again. And, it’s this funny thing, because I worked on this quote unquote problem at Spotify for a little bit, like, when a single comes out and now it’s an album, because like, there’s no physical media anymore. So like all these titles don’t mean anything yeah and it is like a it’s a I will say it’s like surprisingly a complicated problem of like what rules you put in place to say that like, okay, well, this song doesn’t belong on this album because it was a it’s like, and I will tell you this, like at the top levels of pop now, like, it’s all about rule breaking, and like, yeah, the rules, like that’s what it is.

 

Louis Virtel Well, it reminds me a little bit of the best new artist conversation at the Grammys, how it’s like, yes, it’s like, everybody’s like well, Chapel Rowan has to win this year. And it’s, like, but I knew about Chapel Row in 2021. So like, what is going on here? Totally. But and also every time I look at Billboard and see, like, 17 songs from whomever Post Malone or Morgan Wallen in the top 20. I’m like, this wouldn’t have happened 10 years ago. But is this more accurate? I don’t know. So totally.

 

Charleton Lamb You know and then I mean it’s like Taylor putting a different surprise song on like eight different versions that target right and so like It’s like it’s all the same. It’s all that cheating like One day I want to leave my next job is just gonna be an agency and I’m gonna work with Artists that are trying to get number one hits Artists are gonna go platinum TV shows that want to be secretly called comedies even though they’re dramas in order to get into different categories like miniseries that are now suddenly documentaries, like, I want to just like, rule break our way to egots, like that is what I’m trying.

 

Louis Virtel Like, it all could be broken down into a textbook, like how each thing can be bent to your own will and successes. Yes, yes, yes.

 

Charleton Lamb Completely.

 

Louis Virtel All right, well, that’s a good project for us in the future. Now, here’s something else you need to know about, Charleton. You are the co-author of a list that people do not know about but is famous among my group of friends called The List of Gay Superpowers, where it’s a list of potential powers that all queer people can have, but then you pick five of them specifically for yourself to claim. Some of these are absurd, some of these more expected, but explain some of those powers to me, if you could.

 

Charleton Lamb I will. I also, I’m bringing up the original iPhone Note in which this happened, which was like a fever dream in like 2016, by the way. That’s how long we’ve been talking about this. And yeah, and we were just excited about like, what are the things that like as sort of recompense for making us gay, God has bestowed upon us. These abilities, which are things that you can use for the benefit of yourself or others. Um, and I think, okay, some of the classic ones, I mean, scamming, which has now taken on a life of its own as a concept, I feel in the last 10 years.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, scamming is like the main one, yeah.

 

Charleton Lamb Um, there’s like three related ones, friending straights, which is different than seducing straight boys, which has different than questing straight, which is about those boys that are constantly having a crush on a straight boy that will never be anything more than.

 

Louis Virtel They just live in a constant state of feverishly attached to straight people, yes, sure.

 

Charleton Lamb And for some people, that is actually a power and not a sickness, and I want to celebrate those people. Then we get to some of the classics, like romance languages, we’ve got books, which has controversially accepted a second meaning in recent years, before it was about someone who knew how to read, which remains coveted superpower. Yes, right, but now it can also refer to someone who but Um, she books. Pedro Pascal books. Quite.

 

Louis Virtel And as we know, he’s questioning. We don’t wanna confirm one way or the other on him. Moving on.

 

Charleton Lamb Allegedly allegedly. Okay, then we’ve got name dropping.

 

Louis Virtel Uh… Have you met ira madison he actually co-host this podcast

 

Charleton Lamb I was gonna just do you guys as a pair name-dropping versus celebrity knowledge patron saint. Thank you Okay, then there’s this for key There’s a weird set where like I clearly could not type when making the list, but it’s like in stride and loss. So there’s Working. Yeah

 

Louis Virtel This is an important part of the list. There are typos that are on the list that have not been fixed, and we just accept them as part of the original laws. So working, which is to say somebody is employed, has become working out.

 

Charleton Lamb Working, yeah. And that is like, anytime someone texts me like, oh, I got a promotion or I got this job, oh my God, working, yeah, like it’s very celebratory.

 

Louis Virtel Yes, it’s a three syllable word and we accept it that way, yes.

 

Charleton Lamb Then there’s my absolute favorite, which is HK slash LDM, which is Hong Kong, London, which there are just these gays that like you talk to them and they’re always like, Oh, I was in London last week, or Oh my god, I know this girl, this fabulous girl from Hong Kong. And you’re like, when were you? Why are these your coordinates? How were you there? Like, so actually we had lunch on Wednesday. So what are you talking about?

 

Louis Virtel One of my favorites on this list I want to bring up is oops, which is somebody constantly just makes like fumbles or whatever, maybe it works out for them, but like that just, they, you know, they stumble into something, they texted the wrong thing to the wrong person that, you whatever, just like screwing up downstairs,

 

Charleton Lamb Falling down stairs, I feel like you’re remembering a specific incident. Yes, shout out to our friend Gus, yes. Yes, shot out to Gus. Then there’s the classic trio of dick body face. I don’t know that many people that have all three. No, right. It’s kind of like you pick two.

 

Louis Virtel They have to be reported if they have all three, actually. Something is suspicious. So, okay, the entire list, maybe Charleton will be good enough to forward it to me, and I’ll post it on Instagram or something. But I want everybody to pick the five that apply to them. And then we can just keep this going through the universe, and they’ll get into the Rand McNally textbooks and things like that, eventually, too. So anyway, what else is happening this episode? So Charleton, we’ll be here the entire time until Ira will join us for our guest today, who is a returning Keep It guest. And if I do say so myself, one of our most fabulous guests. She’s so entertaining and lovely and great in the new Megan movie, Megan 2.0. Allison Williams joins us today. She used to be on Girls 2. I don’t know if you know this about her. But, Allison, we’re on the episode. It’s the 20th anniversary of Brokeback Mountain, which has had some screenings around the country. Charleton watched it for the first time recently. I think I’ve seen this movie probably seven times and I watched it the eighth time the other day, but for the time of maybe 15 years. So we will reinvestigate that movie, talk about what we were saying at the time about the movie, what we think now, we should have won best picture, et cetera. We’ll get into that. And then also, Billboard ranked the 75, 75? They couldn’t find 25 more R&B singers. The 75 best R& B singers of all time. We’ll go into the entire list and talk about who belongs where on the list because R. Kelly landed in the top 10. And let me tell you something. The power of less. Because they did that and I literally was like, I was like the congregation in the Bible coming after Jesus.

 

Speaker 4 Yeah, like, like bring it.

 

Louis Virtel Like, bring us Barabbas, stone them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we’ll get into that, and that’s our episode. So welcome, Charleton, and welcome you all to this edition of Keep It. We’ll be right back. Keep It is brought to you by Factor. Honestly, Factor is essential to my summer. You know what I love doing? Not cooking. You know, what I loved doing? Making ready to eat meals and then eating them. And then I don’t have to think about the eating anymore. And yet I also enjoyed the eating. You see how every part of that process was perfection? That’s why we love Factor, Facter’s chef crafted dietitian approved meals that are ready in just two minutes, taking the hassle out of eating well. Factor meals arrive fresh and ready to Perfect for any lifestyle over summer and beyond.

 

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Louis Virtel Billboard has dropped another divisive list, this time ranking the 75 best R&B singers of all time. The editors considered vocal prowess, body of work, career longevity, industry achievements, game-changing influence, and enduring generational and cultural impact. Tarleton, you were rife with opinions when we texted about this last week, so please tell us, I guess, how you’re dealing with it. But what offended you most?

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, what is offending me the most? It’s 75, it’s top 75, let’s start there. Okay, and obviously, you’re thinking to yourself, where is Brandi in the top 10? Right. Obviously. She’s 41. 41.

 

Louis Virtel Right, must not be a full moon, is what I said.

 

Charleton Lamb Hello. I mean, it’s crazy. I stick around for the outro, everyone. I will sing the entirety of Full Moon, but it’s out of control to me. Like, I think Never Say Never, which is I think her second album, is maybe the single most album I’ve played in my entire life, like from start to finish. Like there is nothing bad about that album, especially her voice. Obviously, every black person listening to this knows she is the vocal Bible. It’s what’s going on. Okay, and now I’m going to say something controversial. And, Louis, I don’t know if you remember this, but the very first time we met, we had a heated conversation about…

 

Louis Virtel That doesn’t seem like me at all. I wouldn’t have a heated conversation, an argument.

 

Charleton Lamb We had a heated conversation about Aaliyah.

 

Louis Virtel Great, okay? I wonder what I said, okay.

 

Charleton Lamb Um, you know, we want, we, we I actually, as a gift to you, I’m going to forget what you said. Okay. But I swear I shared with you that like I stayed home from school the day Aliyah died.

 

Louis Virtel August 2001, yes.

 

Charleton Lamb That’s how deep it goes. However, Aliyah should not be ahead of Brandy on this list.

 

Louis Virtel I mean, I think she’s a very talented vocalist. I also think Aaliyah is in the pocket of R&B, which is a concern I have about this list. For sure. Michael Jackson is number three. I am not saying he was never an R& B singer. His nickname is the King of Pop. Exactly. The albums we all care about the most from him, from off the wall onward, are pop albums. There are certainly R&B-ish moments. I’m thinking of like Human Nature, for example, but Aaliyah is at least mostly all what I would consider actual R&D. I think what this list needs a little bit is like a thesis for what constitutes the most R&B song and I think maybe like Confessions part two by Usher is what I’m thinking of but that’s also a very modern interpretation. Totally. Yes, but Brandi not ahead of Aliyah is a little wack, especially when she gave us the album Aphrodisiac.

 

Charleton Lamb Right. Like, it’s just kind of like, what’s going on? It’s just like, what’s coming on here? But otherwise, like, I don’t have that many, like huge issues with this list. Although I do think in the writing of this, they said in particular, and I think R&B is a genre in which you do have to think about this, like they weren’t, they were trying not to give people points for writing, for songwriting. Oh, yeah. Because this is a job historically where like, you know, songwriting and singing were just like not. That just wasn’t a thing, that wasn’t how it worked. However, I think a lot of people are getting low-key bonuses for their writing, actually.

 

Louis Virtel And I wonder if R. Kelly is a part of that. You know, like he’s okay, he’s the architect of his sound in a way too. So like they give him credit. And Stevie Wonder is number one on this list. Now here’s my question about that. I feel like the number one person on the list of R&B singers should also be a bit sexier, a vocalist. I’m a little bit surprised that Marvin Gaye isn’t number one on this last.

 

Charleton Lamb I’m sorry, I’m, sorry, did you not wear out the cassette tape of the Jungle Fever soundtrack?

 

Louis Virtel I have to admit I didn’t, I have to admit i didn’t.

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, did you not get in detention in like fifth grade because you were singing chemical love? Okay, all right, that is a sexy song Stevie all those kids he got Stevie is a sexie man, and I won’t have this

 

Louis Virtel Okay, I’m just thinking like if I’m thinking of the like median Stevie song, it’s like boogie on reggae woman Was he really like does does that make you want to have sex with the reggae? Woman, I don’t know that song. I mean, it’s like it’s a rollicking song

 

Charleton Lamb Yes.

 

Louis Virtel You know, I like when he’s a little nasty, like in the song, Go Home.

 

Charleton Lamb Uh-huh. You know? I believe my parents were doing something to live in just enough for the city.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, alright, alright. Alright, sure.

 

Charleton Lamb But that’s maybe about them more than it is about what Stevie was trying to communicate.

 

Louis Virtel I’m not saying I would take him out of the top 10. I just think for number one, I’m slightly concerned. But also, Beyonce is at number four. I would say that’s maybe an appropriate listing for Beyonce based on the amount of basically strictly R&B output she had over the past 15 years, you know? Mariah Carey, number eight. Now this is somebody who’s woven between genres. But like her definitive R& B achievements cannot be underestimated. I mean, I love I can’t even pick a favorite one. What’s your favorite Mariah song? Stay the night. Excellent choice. It really is dignified. I love make it happen the MTV unplugged version because I love being told to make it Happen as an ambitious girl also, you know who is low on this fucking list And I think it talk about would be I’d be happy if they’d switch places with for instance our Kelly Chaka Khan is it just because we associate her more with funk that like we think she’s less but like everything she does is R&B everything she doesn’t

 

Charleton Lamb You know? Totally. Totally.

 

Louis Virtel And also, if she sang the national anthem now, you’d be like, riveted. And then also, if she’s performing at like, whatever, Temecula Pride, and you know, you paid one dollar to see her sit at the edge of like a curb in front of 7-Eleven, she would still bring that 7-11 down.

 

Charleton Lamb I would like to talk about, I’m sort of scanning the list, and okay, I might be wrong because I’m not a fast reader, sorry.

 

Louis Virtel No, they’re there.

 

Charleton Lamb Is that I do believe the only white person on this list is Tina Marie.

 

Louis Virtel I was scanning for, you know, my Caucasians, you know, yes, my sisters as they were, um, and, uh, I, I was like, Oh, well, I mean, like, for instance, I’m not saying I’m rooting for Justin Timberlake, but he’s not on the list. Sure. And you know? Yeah. And, or whatever Robin Thicke, you know, there’s a whole class of them. Exactly. But-

 

Charleton Lamb Jothstone?

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, just don’t, perfectly lovely singer, whatever. Tina Marie, meanwhile, is the ivory queen of soul. Now, yes. And I feel like the only white R&B singer that I’m gonna say a majority of black people will agree belongs on the list.

 

Charleton Lamb Totally, totally, totally. It’s definitely a sort of come here, Tina Marie kind of situation. Like if these people all had to get in the room together, which thoughts on that in a second, I think Tina would be the only white person who would be like actually allowed into the building. And so yeah, but shout out to her. We love to see her.

 

Louis Virtel I’m sure I brought this up on the podcast before, but like she’s the kind of person where even if you don’t know her music directly, you’ve probably heard it indirectly in certain Like in one, two step, the rap Missy Elliott does is a direct takeoff on a rap that Tina Marie did in Square Biz, I believe. But also like Behind the Groove is such an amazing song, Lover Girl is maybe her signature song. All of her ballads are fabulous. I mean, she’s a queen.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah, like honestly

 

Louis Virtel I’m also, by the way, I just wanna say haunted by her death. I don’t know if you know this about Tina Marie, but she like was, a painting fell on her head or something when she was sleeping, like it fell off and then she had like concussive issues or something, and then died from complications of that thereafter. It’s like a Bob Saget situation.

 

Charleton Lamb Oh my God, like a David Dobrik video.

 

Louis Virtel Thank you for putting in perspective for everybody. Sorry, sorry, I’m really sorry that that’s my.

 

Charleton Lamb Reference point for that. Sorry, I just want people to think that I’m 22 years old.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, right, which I am. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Okay. Yes elsewhere on this list. What are we thinking?

 

Charleton Lamb Else run this list. Okay. I don’t want to do this, but we have to talk about Rihanna.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, Rihanna is what in the top 20 here?

 

Charleton Lamb 46

 

Louis Virtel Oh, never mind. Okay, how do we feel about that?

 

Charleton Lamb It’s a little high in my opinion, like, listen, I love Rihanna. I’m also another person who like, is she an R and B artist?

 

Louis Virtel It’s yeah, but also here’s the thing when you put Etta James at like whatever she is on the list like 73 And then Rihanna’s way above her. It’s like well what let’s pretend. We’re teaching this to children Now we’re correcting history in a very strange way

 

Charleton Lamb Totally, totally. It’s just like, listen, Rihanna, absolutely, like, there are probably eight other lists Billboard could make that I think Rihannas should be number one on. Like, let’s not be confused. But like, I don’t know, man. I really don’t know. But I love you. I love, you don’t come for me or actually do come for you.

 

Louis Virtel Well, by the way, speaking of which, well, you know who’s in the top 20, Janet Jackson. Now, here’s the thing, definitely has some R&B songs I enjoy. I’m talking about, I Get Lonely. Actually, a lot of the Janet album, a lot the Velvet Rope album. A lot of Velvet Roped, yeah. But vocalist, are we sure? I mean, I put her in a community that I love, which is the Pebbles, Jodie Watley, Paula Abdul community. And I’m just saying, I wouldn’t compare them to maybe Maria Callas. Yes. You know what I’m saying?

 

Charleton Lamb Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly I didn’t do a good job of like the men on the list. I think are all solid. Yeah. The tension we’re kind of getting to between is this female singer R&B or pop. I think for a man, it’s way easier to be like, okay, well that big black man is singing.

 

Louis Virtel Right. If you have a deep voice, it’s automatically R&B. Yes. Whereas, like, women don’t really have that gift, shall we say. Yeah, let’s say. Also, Isaac Hayes is number 15 on this list. We obviously know him. Shaft, whatever. I believe Isaac Hay’s is the only Oscar-winning Scientologist. I’m thinking it’s like Tom Cruz has got the nomination and he’s getting the honorary this year. But like Juliet Lewis nominee, otherwise, you know, Kirsty Alley didn’t got nothing for for richer for poorer, which is zany.

 

Charleton Lamb Oh my gosh, wow!

 

Louis Virtel You would think, as we were just talking about gaming, entertainment. Yes, totally. This is all they do, right? They game entertainment and make people like Elizabeth Moss happen. And yet.

 

Charleton Lamb I was just gonna say, you give me five years with Elizabeth Moss, we’re gonna get her that little gold man. I promise you.

 

Louis Virtel I can’t wait for you to start this agency.

 

Charleton Lamb I can do it, like, it’s not a joke. Lizzie, call me, we’re gonna get you, we’re going to make this happen. Okay. We’re gonna make this happened for her.

 

Louis Virtel Here’s the thing also, so Rihanna’s 46, 48, Lauren Hill, no. Right. That was an R&B album, The Miseducation of Lauren Hill. Top to bottom, I mean, there’s rap in it, et cetera, but like R&D vocals classically, she also, also a classic cover of a great, I guess, Killing Me Softly with a Song, is that, I guess that’s a pop song.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah, I mean, I-I mean, well, Roberta’s up here, so…

 

Louis Virtel Right. Oh, that’s another thing. She’s barely up here. Roberta is 39, well below even Alicia Keys. How do you feel about that? She’s 33 on this list.

 

Charleton Lamb Alicia, Alicia, actually Alicia has done a lot for R&B in this modern era. Sure. Like she has, I feel like she and Usher kind of in this sort of generation, I think that she has. Now, her approach to vocals is kind of a Dakota Johnson approach to acting. Oh. It’s like, you know, it’s happening and it’s something that I, it is pleasant but I would not call it You know, classically good. Competitive. You would not call it good. No, I would not classically, good. No, but it’s amazing. And it’s like, put that song on repeat, but I don’t know. Do you feel differently about it?

 

Louis Virtel Right, she claims that this girl is on fire, and I would argue that the girl is simmering.

 

Charleton Lamb You know exactly and it’s also it’s all a choice that she’s making like she is she is the one who’s choosing to be at the absolute edges of her of her reign.

 

Louis Virtel I love people who live on the edge like that, if you will.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah, and I like it honey. I like that

 

Louis Virtel And I will say that Fallen is probably a definitive R&B song of the 2000s, in a time when we had people like Usher and R Kelly and stuff, but rap was really taking over, the boy band pop was happening, etc. So that she was happening in that moment is very important also. But right, again, vocal power, specifically bring vocally, it does feel a bit high for me. It’s a little hot.

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, I also think Frank Ocean is a little high. I like Frank Ocean being on this list. And he is number, sorry.

 

Louis Virtel 37.

 

Charleton Lamb That’s a bit high. It’s a little high. He’s getting bumps for his like entire package of celebrity It’s not just vocals. It’ s not just the songs in my opinion. He is amazing Like absolutely and I think I like the representation for like I don’t know. What are we calling that fourth fifth generation? Like rnb star Um, so i’m very happy to see him on this list. I would have put him below maxwell who’s 38

 

Louis Virtel Right. Why is Maxwell that low? Like that is definitive R&B vocals. Not a thing he does is not R& B. And it’s like, it’s what you want to hear when you’re listening to R&-B too.

 

Charleton Lamb Absolutely. Now that is some panty-dropping music. Right. Now, I remember one time at karaoke, I decided I was gonna sing this woman’s work.

 

Louis Virtel The definitive Maxwell song perhaps, yes.

 

Charleton Lamb Which like, as you can tell from my voice, it did not go well.

 

Louis Virtel That woman it did not work it no no uh let’s see but you know you know who also kind of plays with the edges of where they should be singing and is in the top 20 let’s talk about it mary j blige that’s true i kind of like somebody who as a vocalist is a little like Like, you never know what you’re going to throw out.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally I totally but you know what you’re gonna cry like she’s gonna make you cry

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, and like Be Without You, also I just, I actually, I think her, what, that album’s called What’s the 411, right, like, great album start to finish. Actually, I said that I wanted Marvin Gaye as the best number one male vocalist on I would have been okay with it being Prince. There’s definitely enough only R&B in the catalog, you know, that’s so, it’s croony That is what I’m missing from some of the people on this list. There has to be a crooning quality to an R& B singer, ultimately, and I know we associate that with male singers? But like that kind of, it’s almost, I said it had to be like sensual or sexual before, but it really just has to be a bit more emotional than what some of these people bring.

 

Charleton Lamb I agree, I agree. I think the last, now that I’m looking at it, the last 25 of this list is just a little bit silly. Like, and no shade to all these people, but it’s like Summer Walker and Kiki Sweptank and Music Soul Child.

 

Louis Virtel Nothing wrong with the music of Keith Sweat, by the way. Put it on. I listen to SiriusX on The Groove any day of the week.

 

Charleton Lamb Nothing wrong with any of these people, nothing wrong.

 

Louis Virtel Shanti61. She co-starred with the Muppets one time. That was a soulful choice she made.

 

Charleton Lamb In Oz. Well, she’s here because they couldn’t put J-Lo on the list.

 

Louis Virtel Wow. Okay, if J.Lo were on this list, you think we’re already riding in the streets? Get ready.

 

Charleton Lamb She probably called up and said, keep me off this list because I’m trying to do an Oscar run next year. Like, actually, keep me away from this mess.

 

Louis Virtel And I just want to shout out somebody who, before we move on, first of all, Natalie Cole, I’m just generally obsessed with, Sophisticated Lady, Mr. Melody I love, and of course her cover of Pink Cadillac. But Stephanie Mills also, there’s something, she is of course, she played the original Dorothy and the Wiz. Yes. She has a song called Bit by Bit off the Flesh soundtrack, and her signature song is Never Knew Love Like This Before. That comes on, I’m immediately at peace. That’s like an automatic R&B classic.

 

Charleton Lamb I have one last name I need to call out before we move on, which is sitting at number 31, the icon, the Levin, the original diva, Miss Anita Baker. I mean, I won’t even begin to butcher these songs, but like that album is like, I absolutely grew up on, I remember my dad who is just like a normal, straight black man of like that generation, like.

 

Louis Virtel I can picture one, sure.

 

Charleton Lamb You know what I mean? Yeah. You’ve seen, you’ve seen. And I remember when I was like, you know, and I guess we’ll come to this period of my life in a minute in the next segment, but when I like, I was secretly gay, but like tortured, tortured by it. And my dad just like all of a sudden was giddy describing to me how Anita Bryant was like… Anita Baker, excuse me, excuse.

 

Louis Virtel Speaking of while the homophobia came out, okay

 

Charleton Lamb Anita Baker was just like a huge bitch and like always causing drama and everyone hated it and my dad was just living for this drama and I was like, okay, like, Wow, who’s this dad? Okay, father, then we’re gonna go ahead and bond really quick.

 

Louis Virtel I had a friend who was her assistant once and confirmed the same thing. I won’t say who it is, but I need to say about Anita Baker. If she’s saying sweet love at like the Hollywood Bowl or something, I would be holding onto the seat, hoping not to explode. In fact, one time I was in an Uber and Anita Baker came on and it was like I was fucking the driver. It was so uncomfortable. Like what do you do when someone plays that level of like sensual, you know, getting ready for bed and putting salts in the water vibe into the air.

 

Charleton Lamb Wait, I’m sorry. Oh, oh my God, oh, my God. I just almost had a heart attack. I just had to do a command F. I was like, is Patti LaBelle not on this list? Okay, sorry.

 

Louis Virtel I gotta say, I assume she is pretty high up there. 25, 25. Okay, still not high enough. Still not high. Yeah, like Al Green is 18 below Janet Jackson. Think about yourself, Bill Bord. Think about it. I know, I know. All right, we’ve done all we can do on this list, I think. Love it. We’ll be right back with more Keep It. But before that, some quick housekeeping. The Crooked Store is a bunch of great new merch for all your hot protest summer needs. There’s the Due Process Freak tee, the Don’t Tread On Us Pride tee, and a gay for due process tea and tank plus. Fresh designs of the classic friend of the pod tee. The Crooked Store also got a quality upgrade so you can expect more durable materials and updated cuts for year long wear. Nothing warms our heart during this dark time like seeing our merch in the wild. So when you wear it, make sure you snap a pic and tag Crooked Media on Instagram, at CrookedMedia, so we can respectfully stan you. Pick up your new favorite summer fit at crooked.com slash store. All right, when we’re back, Ira and I are joined by Allison Williams.

 

Ira Madison III [AD]

 

Ira Madison III We’re so excited to have this week’s guest back on keep it Uh, she is the star of one of the biggest summer releases megan 2.0 Of course, and you also know and love her as marnie in girls And rose in get out but now Once again, we have a bone to pick with you because you are back with a new podcast again Uh landlines Please welcome to Keep It, Allison Williams, so we can ask her why she keeps coming for a gig.

 

Allison Williams I mean, I just keep feeling like neither of you is channeling the angst of a 37-year-old mom enough, and it just feels like there’s a niche you’re not hitting. Hi, you guys! I’m so happy to talk to you again.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, so psyched to be here with you even though again, I do think you’re coming for our bag. It’s fine

 

Allison Williams I am so sure that I can’t come for either of your bags. Is that how you would put that in the plural second person?

 

Louis Virtel I don’t know. It felt very ESL the way you just said it, but I have no idea, yeah.

 

Allison Williams That felt really, so like I am in love actually speaking bad Portuguese, but hello, it’s nice to see you. You are. Anyway.

 

Ira Madison III It feels prophetic also to have you back here this is like my last like five episodes of the show

 

Allison Williams I can’t get over this, can we talk you out of it?

 

Louis Virtel He’s already on a vacation aisle. Like you can see, you can actually watch him check out as the episodes go on. It’s so true.

 

Allison Williams It’s so true I can feel that your adrenaline is low in this and if you could see mine it would be radiating off of me like a Keith Haring painting.

 

Ira Madison III There, I’m on Fire Island currently, there’s a Hugo Spritz off-camera.

 

Allison Williams Bless you.

 

Ira Madison III And I’m going to jump back in the pool right after this.

 

Allison Williams I love it. I just love that for you and hate it for the rest of us.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, we have to talk about Megan 2.0, which by the way, for a horror sequel, and I don’t know, I truly don’t know how many horror sequels can count as good. There are certainly horror fans who will tout, like, oh, this one has a queer part or whatever, and they make up little stories.

 

Ira Madison III To convince you to watch this. Okay, slow down, Savannah.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, they to make you watch these things. This is a very good movie and very thrilling and very very funny Tell me about the origin of this movie and just reading the script Did you have any anxiety about following up the you know, absolute media hysteria of the first one?

 

Allison Williams We did, of course. I mean, I think, at the end of the day, we had a big kind of existential question about sequels, because sequels by and large don’t do their job very well, which is, for a reason, it’s really hard. It’s intimidating to take something that was really popular the first time around. You kind of are immediately met with a fork in the road. You either redo what you did and try to… Catch lightning and be struck by lightning twice, catch it in a bottle twice, I’d insert metaphor with lightning here. And then, or you go off in another direction and hope that some pieces of the original energy that were popular the first time around. Go with you and and you know work in this new milieu and we committed to the second one and we were like we assume that people feel sated by the experience of the first one and so now we’re going to keep the tone keep most of the characters and just move into this other world that is kind of dictated by The Addition of a Second Doll. And add action to our the hyphens of the movie and just make the entire thing bigger and still keep it in the same like ethical framework as the first movie and see what happens. And so from the very first conversations which were basically like James Wan I think was the first person to be like there should just be a second doll. And so from there, from the idea of Amelia, we had to come up with something that was terrifying enough to bring Megan back to life, someone that like very actively threatened the life of my character, who would also have to be responsible for bringing her back. And thus, action was added into the stew and… Our biggest job really more than anything was just to put our heads down and like do what we did creatively the first time around and not And try honestly not to focus too hard on what we felt like we owed as gratitude to the people who supported it Assuming that if we did it again the same way We would show them that gratitude in the process if that makes sense. I don’t know. That was kind of word salad

 

Ira Madison III It does. I mean, I really love you know, I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, but just the the Terminator 2 of it all, you know like just from horror to action and what’s interesting about expectations and coming back to film a second thing, you know, like a lot of people don’t get that for films to be honest, but You had that for what multiple seasons on girls, you know, so like did you prepare for that already just the idea of Here’s an audience and you have expectations and you’re coming back the next year and you wanna get, I wanted to see this or you didn’t do this, et cetera. Like what was that like dealing with for years of your career and then compared to now doing it for Megan 2.0?

 

Allison Williams It’s such an apt analogy because the first time around kind of prepared me in some ways for this one, which is that you can’t, that some of the criticism or like, some of the things that people are asking for are very valid and should be addressed and are really hard to address. And then other ones you just need to block out. And in both scenarios, I wasn’t responsible for implementing either. Like I didn’t envy, I didn’t envy Lena’s job and I didn’t envied Gerard’s both responsible for maintaining the integrity of the thing they brought to life in the first place, but trying to improve on it and maybe include more people in it, but definitely not abandon the group of people that like made it what it was in the first place. And so I think that is the very parallel, both challenge and opportunity with with both of those situations. And in my case, I got to just It is the closest thing I’ve done to girls in that we’ve done four different shoots, I guess, if you count principle and additional photography for both movies. I’ve four different shots as Gemma. I kept accidentally referring to it as the fourth season when we were doing additional photography for the sequel because I was like, it did feel like I was coming back and playing someone as familiar to me or who was becoming as familiar to me as Marnie did eventually. Yeah, I mean, I think the challenge always is making sure that you are delivering something that’ll be entertaining to and aware of the people who supported it, while also continuing to iterate and give that same audience more stuff to chew on and enjoy. The dance in the sequel is in the trailer. We’re not, we didn’t, since that was the big surprise, like pop cultural moment in the first movie. The choice was made early on to like put that in the marketing materials and keep something else to be that moment in the second movie just to keep everybody kind of on their toes in guessing because you could you could guess there’d be a dance in the 2nd movie like we were but it didn’t need to be the thing that we kept a secret for the whole time you know so little things like that.

 

Louis Virtel Uh… One change from the first one is that jimane clement is in this is a uh… Villain type figure and it must be said he is giving a billy zane like performance there’s no other way to put it is a billie zane like performance

 

Allison Williams What if I was like, that was the character description?

 

Louis Virtel Is Billy Zane around, question mark? No.

 

Allison Williams That’s such a good point. He is getting on that lifeboat in this movie.

 

Louis Virtel Right you provided for him. Yes

 

Allison Williams He’s getting on the lifeboat exactly right.

 

Louis Virtel But the the energy is so comic and and you know a bit frightening too but I was wondering what it was like to act alongside that somebody who it’s your job in this movie to make a lot of other things seem kind of to have like a normal human reactions to very crazy things and Was that hard with him?

 

Allison Williams Oh, yeah, like getting through scenes with Jermaine was extremely difficult because he’s so funny. And honestly, I’ve spent it’s that thing with that I’ve encountered with some other comedic actors where I’ve spend so many hours laughing at things that he’s made and been part of that my my like Pavlovian system just gets ready to laugh when he’s near me. Like even when he is not doing anything, I’m pre giggling a little bit. And that makes it really hard to get through scenes. And then those scenes also were funny and I had to be completely to your point Like just bored and not have the time of day for him at all. And that was hard. Often in these movies, like to your point, Gemma’s role is to kind of play both the stakes of what’s happening, because the things that are happening to her are incredible, but in a way that we find kind of relatable. Like when she suddenly is in an action movie, it should feel a little bit like the way we would feel in an actual movie, but slightly aspirational. And so… That is kind of the challenge of this role and also none of this this movie works if while we’re making it we aren’t completely committed to the bit if there’s any winking at the camera like during filming none of it works it all falls apart we earnestly and authentically make this movie. We can laugh about it before rolling, after cut, whatever, like while we’re developing it in post, all of that, but while we are, you know, designing the perfect chair for her to sit on while she’s delivering in a passion monolog to me in a lab, in a lair under her apartment, like we have to just commit to the reality of all of those things or none of it works. It just, that’s the reality of this tonal world and that’s, that the biggest challenge of it all,

 

Ira Madison III Switching gears just a little bit, you recently launched your first podcast, which is with your friends, Hope Kramer and Jamie Oppenheim. Tell us a bit about why you were like, I want to hop on the bike now.

 

Allison Williams It just felt like there weren’t enough podcasts. That’s right. You know, when I see lack somewhere, I feel a need to fill that hole. Honestly, it was kind of born from the fact that when I got pregnant, the group chat that we had always had from like 30-plus years of friendship. Reignited in this really intense way because I was having to ask for advice at a At a pace that I hadn’t before in my life And I had the gift of being among the last of our friend group to have a baby And so I had this panel of experts that not That more than like a chat gbt like have known me since I was in the single digits or like born in some cases and so they know exactly how to advise me around certain things and It was my lifeline. It was like I mean the show is called landlines and it’s sort of a play on that sense as well They kept me moored. They kept to me like anchored to the world when I was going through things like Physically hormonally emotionally that I had no other frame of reference for and Parenthood in particular is kind of what kicked it off, but also just this stage of life at large can be filled with so much shame if you are comparing yourself against the social media examples of other people doing it. You’re like, why aren’t I peeling off like 17 things stuck to my face in the morning and injecting myself with like all these good vitamins and then doing a workout before it’s like 4 a.m. Like, why do I suck at life? And it’s, no, you need a group of people to tell you that you’re doing the best you can that no one is doing that and that it’s all fine and thus that shame that starts to grow without light shining on it like can be just so pernicious and so We just thought that if we maybe offered other people a glimpse into our group chat that we could provide that same service for other people that were maybe not in a situation where they were in close touch with people who have known them forever and could voice those same things that privately. Worrying about or wondering about. And already, honestly, the experience of hearing from people who’ve been listening to the podcast is sort of like proof of concept. I have so many friends who have sent me pictures of… One of the things we talk about are this pair of C-section recovery underpants, which I’m sure neither of you can even begin to conjure an image.

 

Ira Madison III It was like you were speaking Latin. I was like, what? Yeah, yeah. I was C-section though, so my mom dealt with that.

 

Allison Williams Okay, so like a really high, just like the highest possible waist under pant, but like a full brief, like just as much covered, you just wanna feel held after that, and one of our friends discovered a particular line of these that then sent them to anyone she knows who had a C-section, and we talk about them all the time, and then I just got unprompted like panty picks, like the least sexy variety, so many of my friends like holding up these underpants that are like gigantic. We all can’t let go and that’s exactly the kind of thing that I’m kind of talking about you see these These portrayals of people at this stage of life dress so sexily online and you think like but why can’t I let go of these? Enormous c-section recovery underpants and they’re so comfortable and then to realize that like everyone’s still wearing them and it’s totally fine It’s just one of those tiny things that just ends up making you feel better as you literally get dressed in the day to be Like no I get to wear these are comfortable fuck off like I don’t know. And so it just, I don t know, it was born from that spirit and it’s really nice to see it kind of taking hold already.

 

Louis Virtel Well, I just want to say about your first comment regarding there being so many podcasts or whatever. We should always have more podcasts from people who are really good at talking. And I want to you are a fabulous talker.

 

Allison Williams Wow, from you, that is high high praise. Thank you so much among our best talkers.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, thank you. But I was wondering, like, how did you become such a good talker?

 

Allison Williams Oh, my God, my dad. Your dad’s a good talker. Well, they’re very good, but what I was gonna say is that both of my parents, like, are, who are still with us, this is gonna make it sound like they’re not, but they are both laughing, like somewhere, being like, why am I laughing right now? And this is why. As they would put it, I basically emerged mid-sentence and just like the only thing that changed is that eventually I started to speak English as they knew it, but then I never stopped. And I would talk in my sleep constantly whether or not anyone was listening. I just was like always talking and everyone who’s close to me. Knows this about me. I just love to talk to people and I have so much I want to know and so much i want to discuss and so it felt really natural honestly it felt kind of like a hack to turn a natural proclivity that our friend group has for just chat into a job it feels even now that it is a full job and we are like editing episodes and ads and all of these things like it still feels like we we tricked someone into letting us like do this professionally which which is so fun, but… I think having two journalists as parents is probably the shorter answer to that question, but the longer one is just that I just have always loved talking to people, and when there wasn’t a person to talk to, I filled that gap myself.

 

Louis Virtel You should record those too. I would listen to that.

 

Allison Williams My phone is full of those. It’s like an echoey bathroom, like just talking through. One of my old therapist strategies around anxiety attacks was like, when they start, just talk. Just open a voicemail and start talking. And often I’m like, if those fell into the wrong hands, I would be immediately in shock. Like craziness being spewed. But yeah, I mean, it works. It works to a certain extent.

 

Louis Virtel They say that therapist could be a spy or something and is like like just keep talking about what’s ailing you like all your credit card numbers right here. I wouldn’t get them

 

Allison Williams I never shared them with anyone for many, many reasons and they also never fully, anxiety is just whatever, it was never tethered to what was happening.

 

Ira Madison III Yeah, I mean you growing up with your parents obviously and then your brother is also a news reporter for CBS So I just keep thinking of like the family from like no cowards hate fever Like it’s just people like talking constantly and people, you know come into your home and being like what am I stepping into?

 

Allison Williams What is this pace of this river flow? Yeah, but honestly, in our family dynamic, like, there is just a lot of we can all turn that on if we want to. But there’s also just a quiet coexistence. Like, ironically, we all grew up kind of, you know, there’s like loud houses with like sibling, sibling, siblings, friends over. Like no one can really keep track of who’s there. And everything’s loud. And there’s always also music playing. And then like someone’s frying something and like it’s just noise. Ours was the opposite of that. House full of love, not full of tension, so don’t get that twisted. But just people, we were just quiet people. We’re waspy-ish, like my dad’s Catholic. You know, it’s just like a quiet, foursome, just dog that was quiet. Everything’s sort of quiet. And so it’s funny to me that we all basically talk professionally. I mean, my mom for a while had like a radio show. We literally all talk for a living and. That is ironic given that we’re also if you needed me to like cross a room silently and do something on the other side of it and come back I could Catherine Zeta-Jones that shit I am fully capable of that mission I can be so quiet it’s freaking

 

Louis Virtel You identified the Yale of that particular job, Catherine Tina Jones.

 

Allison Williams Is the high point of that effort.

 

Ira Madison III I guess, is it weird to listen to your brother’s reporting, or was it weird growing up watching your dad on TV, and do they watch your films, et cetera? What is, I guess… What goes on with consuming each other’s professional work?

 

Allison Williams It’s so funny, I’ve never really asked myself that. I’ve been watching my dad do his things since I was aware of, like, anything. He’s always had that job for my entire life, so that was something I was totally accustomed to. Watching my little brother become little brother, he’s like fully a dad in his mid-30s. He’s my little Brother forever. All older siblings will relate to this feeling. Watching him become like a full like TV anchor has been uncanny because he is so his own talent and also reminds me so much of my dad. And but I’m also just like overwhelmed with pride which feels like the wrong words they can’t take credit for any of it but he’s just in awe I guess of how good he is. He’s just so good at this and that what must have been scary to do what my dad dead, you know, and he’s. Really good and he works really really hard at it. And so that part is the loudest it’s just the feeling of like pride and awe and You know and excitement that he’s that he is as good at it as he is the one that I guess I got I had the hardest time adjusting to is that my mom Had a radio show about education for Bloomberg for a little while and hearing her voice in that format was both so familiar and formal in a way that was like slightly unfamiliar, but Yeah, maybe Douglas and my dad have anchor voices that I’m not as aware of, but I don’t know. It’s just a well, it’s addiction and projection home that I grew up in with non-regional dialects, I guess, is kind of the stew I was raised in.

 

Louis Virtel Unfortunately, our time is already up. I want to thank you so much for being here. I know it’s really upsetting But I did my question is about your voice memos that you leave yourself Do you ever still sing the songs from Peter Pan because I know that is one of your favorite things you’ve done in your career as you said last time you were on this podcast

 

Allison Williams It’s the best. It was so much fun. I sing Tender Shepherd. We sing Tener Shepherd every single night to Arlo. We do like a trio of songs every night and then either myself or Alexander sings a personal song with him as we tuck him in. And there’s a lot of music around Arlo, so he… He can blast out a version of Tender Shepherd that is pretty spectacular and special. So yeah, that’s the one we sing. I don’t sing that by myself to my voice memo, but our baby monitor has endless hours of footage of us singing it.

 

Louis Virtel And that will come out, I will say. And it will come, I was just…

 

Allison Williams And it will come out. I was just talking to Alex Lackamore the other day who did the music for Hamilton and other incredible things and I was working on an American songbook a million years ago with Alex Lachamore and Tommy Kale who had to split off because of this musical they were developing about Alexander Hamilton. But I was talking to him and he was like, send me old voice memos from the stuff we were singing together and one of my missions of the next couple of weeks is to dig back in and listen to them. I’m a little nervous and also excited to hear one at all.

 

Ira Madison III Yes. Well, thank you so much, Allison, for being with us again.

 

Allison Williams Ira, thank you for all the hours of entertainment. And yeah, thank for just culture for keeping it.

 

Louis Virtel Well put, well put. Allison, you will be back on this show a third time, by the way, our first third time guest. I’m guaranteeing it now.

 

Allison Williams Thank goodness. Notice I did not say goodbye to you.

 

Louis Virtel Exactly right.

 

Ira Madison III Thank you to Allison Williams. Megan 2.0 hits theaters this Friday, June 27th. All right, when we’re back, it’s more keeping.

 

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Louis Virtel In 2005, two of Hollywood’s hottest actors shook the industry by doing the bravest thing a straight man can do, play gay. Of course, we’re talking about Brokeback Mountain, a film whose legacy, from the struggles it took to get made to losing the Oscar to, I’m looking this up here, some movie called Crash. We can never quit. So, to mark the film’s 20th anniversary, and since Charleton had somehow never seen it until now, traitor, we are going to dive into Ang Lee’s pioneering drama and how it’s influenced queer cinema today. Are a child and what we are uh… Just impressions watching the movie

 

Charleton Lamb Honestly, thank you guys for giving a reason to actually watch this film for the first time. I’m sort of surprised at myself, I will say, because Crouching Tiger is like my favorite movie of all time.

 

Louis Virtel I’ve seen a lot of that on the recent New York Times, the New York times just compiled the list of the 100 best films of the 21st century and you can compile your own top 10. I’m seeing so much Crouching Tiger, which is so.

 

Charleton Lamb I know, which is like, I love that. It made me feel a little bit less special, but I love it. But so yeah, so I was like, okay, well, let me see this man who made my favorite romance ever. Like let me watch him make another romance. I thought it was cute. I had a good time. You know, I loved a movie about white people doing white people things. Oh, and boy, do they. You know boy, I also really love a movie it’s like. Every single person in it, and it’s gonna be more famous. And then like, just when you think you’re done, here comes Kate Mara. Love that.

 

Louis Virtel The underrated thing about this movie is the amount of performances stuffed in it that no one talks about or remembers. Kate Mara is Keith Ledger’s daughter, who appears eventually, but Anna Faris plays a housewife in this. And unlike any other role I’ve seen her do, Randy Quaid, Oscar nominee and now Basque case, is fabulous in this movie as their boss on Brokeback Mountain.

 

Charleton Lamb And Anna Faris’ husband is like David Harbor?

 

Louis Virtel Yes, who once upon a time did gayer things like be in Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf on Broadway? Tony-nominated.

 

Charleton Lamb Uh, I would love to see him do gayer things.

 

Louis Virtel This is our request, please. Yes. Yeah. Though being with Lily Allen for that long also gay.

 

Charleton Lamb Pretty gay although how was he with her? And also, by the way, I just want to again shout out Kate Mara, who I’m on many records as loving and she is my preferred Mara. Love the girl, happy to see her. No, I think the movie is good, like obviously, but I am curious a lot about like, I’m curious what you think about, like what does it mean that it’s like 20 years ago, it had to be two straight actors playing this role and 20 years later, it has to be two straight actor playing this kind of thing.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, I mean it’s I tend to be a little bit agnostic about this issue just because like I’m I’m so Like enamored of the fantasy of being an actor that like I like seeing them play whatever generally speaking I I do feel like I’ve seen a lot You can tell watching a performance if it’s like a failed gay caricature and I feel like In this one they sort of get to vamp up on their masculine qualities because it’s a movie about masculinity in certain ways, too, but Um, yeah, if it were, if we’re happening today, I can, I’m not even sure what gay actors I would pick to play these roles, actually, though it would be, I think there would be more of an effort to make them gay. Um, and I would help make them get, uh, but to me, when I think about this movie, I think of how at the time, first of all, at least where I was from a suburb of Chicago, it was kind of hard to see. It wasn’t at every theater. And so like you had to like make time to like go out and go see it. And so like. I was braced to see it because there was so much hype for this and it was the only gay thing I’d ever heard of that had been hyped, you know, like outside of something like Will and Grace, for example, which is just like a different mode and not as you know it’s not like a raunchy cinematic tour de force, shall we say. But seeing this movie, I remember it being criticized a little bit at the time for seeming like an elongated short story and of course it’s based on the Annie Prue short story broke that mountain. And it’s the screenplay is adapted by Larry McMurtry. And I feel like who wrote the Lonesome Dove trilogy and last picture show, et cetera, like lots of amazing things in his past. To me, this movie is flawless. I don’t believe, I can’t think of one other thing you would want from this movie. And it also, what I love about this movie, it makes you feel like you’re in the romance with these two guys, because it starts off with them meeting on Brokeback Mountain where they’re charged with rustling sheep together all summer. I can’t even say what their job really was. But then the rest of the movie when they go back to their normal lives and find themselves find it harder and harder to reunite You kind of end up missing their romance to like you miss the bliss of the beginning of the movies so you’re stuck in this nostalgic pain for much of this quite long movies runtime and You know another movie that’s a little bit like that is call me by your name Like they have their they have there crucial moment together and then afterwards you’re like, oh wait the bubble popped Like what happened like can’t can’t we go back? To the way things were. I will say Heath Ledger in this movie gives a performance, and he said at the time that his characterization was he felt like the guy’s mouth was like a clenched jaw, like he could barely speak, could barely express himself. It’s the kind of performance we expected River Phoenix to be giving well into his 20s and 30s, you know, where it’s like intensely brute, but then also shockingly vulnerable. And so it’s a pretty rare performance in the best actor category, to be nominated in the Best Actor category based on the level of emotionality at play. So I was stunned by that performance and equally stunned by Jake Gyllenhaal. I thought they were both just fabulously emotive. And I think also, like a classic Hollywood movie, like maybe Giant or The African Queen, the direction makes the vistas we’re seeing, it treats them as epically as it treats the actors’ faces. Like you are watching the tragedy unfold on these just incredible movie star faces. It’s kind of like The Talented Mr. Ripley. It’s a beautiful locale. But then also just as beautiful are the, like the look of pain on these people’s faces. So that juxtaposition I think is just super mesmerizing.

 

Charleton Lamb I think so, I know, I think it’s so beautiful and like, and I think the women also giving really wonderful performances, like obviously Michelle, like, obviously I was deeply aware of like the overall plot of this movie, even though, even thought I’d never seen it before. And like, I felt so bad that Michelle, look, it’s like from the jump with Michelle No!

 

Louis Virtel There’s not a comfortable moment with this woman on screen. She is like about to blubber from the moment. Like the first time we see her, she’s getting married to Heath Ledger just as soon as we’re sure that this man is gay. And the smile on her face there even feels so miserable in a way, or so like under felt.

 

Charleton Lamb I was like, man. And then finally having a place to like locate like the iconic line, which I’m now gonna start saying 20 years later, Jack Twist, Jack nasty is like.

 

Louis Virtel Which is okay, so she when she confronts her husband, but when she because very early on she sees that they’re making out She’s aware of their problems from early in the movie and then later when she confronted them famously She says jack twist which is jake jillian hall’s character’s name. She goes jack nasty Now I have a question about that line. Are we watching this never happens in movies? Are we watch a character fail to come up with a joke?

 

Charleton Lamb I know! I know, I know. I know I think like she’s like, she’s so overwhelmed and like she can’t believe she’s confronting this man in, by the way, her new husband’s kitchen. And like, she’s like, Jack, twist Jack.

 

Louis Virtel Nasty. Like the improv is not kicking in. She’s like, I’m coming up with nothing. Because Jack Twist is already by the way, a gay name.

 

Charleton Lamb No, exactly. First of all, and it’s like, also, like, there’s something about it that like, you know, like maybe that is the most cutting thing, because if she had gotten off like Jack Twist, like Jack Fist, like you know who knows maybe Heath would have just actually started reading her back, you know what I mean? Maybe it would have been the library is open. Whereas because it was sort of a ham-fisted attempt, he just went to, you know physical violence instead.

 

Louis Virtel Right, that’s correct. No, right, because he could have done something gay or be like, I’m the gay one, you’re the one with a kid named Junior. You know, what the fuck is that, Alma Junior? Does that sound right, Michelle? I can’t possibly be married to you.

 

Charleton Lamb Oh my god.

 

Louis Virtel We must talk about all three of the people we discussed have been nominated for Oscars for this movie and Hathaway though Who pays now this? Maybe the most interesting role in the movie because it’s it’s It’s very unclear what she knows at certain points and then by the end of the movie when she’s on the phone with Jake Gyllenhaal or sorry when she on the foam with Keith Ledger reporting on her husband Jake Gyllenhall’s death Is she making up the story about how he died, or is she reporting it factually as she knows it, or what does she know? It’s very interesting.

 

Charleton Lamb I know, it is very interesting. And the way they show that, they intercut what really happened.

 

Louis Virtel Yeah, or what he’s imagining anyway.

 

Charleton Lamb Oh, yeah, I guess it’s like on so many levels. I couldn’t even think of it that way. You know, I mean, it’s funny because it’s these two people who are… Whatever it is, these two people are both very practiced at like sharing a lie. Yes, correct, yes. In this phone call, like they’re once again, like doing that practice of like, we’re gonna know exactly what we both mean, but we’re going to both construct a vision of something else just so that we both can kind of make it through this phone calls.

 

Louis Virtel I think something that’s interesting about what she’s doing there is you can’t really tell if she’s breaking. She’s like, it’s emotional for her and she’s thinking about what’s… But you don’t really know what she is thinking about as she hears from Heath Ledger what Brokeback Mountain is. She reports that he wanted to be buried on Broke Back Mountain and she shares her theories that like, oh, maybe he grew up there or whatever. And then he says, oh no, we spent time up there. And that seems to confirm something for her. But like, how deeply could she have really known? I mean, just. Something that blows me away thinking about this movie or like what the characters know and understand is, I’m just saying like my parents in suburban Chicago in the 2000s were pretty unaware of gay shit. Like I had to like basically like construct a little PowerPoint presentation for them. For these, for like Laurene in this movie, a former rodeo star who just wants to have kids and sell like farm machinery to be like, oh, well, you know, my husband’s a queen. Like that feels very impossible to me in a way too.

 

Charleton Lamb Right, right, right. Also, really quick point of information, is her name Lureen? L-U-R-E-E. Yes, Lureeen. That’s actually really wild.

 

Louis Virtel It’s maybe the draggiest part of the movie, yeah.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah, yeah like luring maybe right like me luring is like and also feels

 

Louis Virtel And it also feels like a play on the word luring. Like he’s trying to, she’s luring him into heterosexuality, failing, but yes. Also just, of course, the look of the movie is so stunning too. I think this is a movie that really benefits from being watched in a theater because it’s epic. I mean, like the epicness of it is just something we didn’t get in a lot of 21st century movies, really. Like just to be absorbed in scenery. And I think also like, The scenery in the movie stands in for this kind of purity that can be, if we only let ourselves experience it, but these people are so tragic, they never get the full majesty of their potential lives, you know.

 

Charleton Lamb And I love how there’s something about like their commitment, like all of their loving moments, like with the exception of like, you know, the tent, but even the tent. Like all of the loving moments happen outside and in some way in like full view of like of God, at least and of the world. And I think there’s just something so beautiful, even now I take something so from that of like the kind of Daring that it takes to kind of like love the person you love and and even if you’re hiding it from other people or for your wives Always wanting to share it and having it be sort of like witnessed by by the world by nature by the universe

 

Louis Virtel And by Randy Quaid, which is, I think, one of the bravest things you can do, but he really is bone-chilling in this movie, it must be said. I know, it really is scary. We have to talk about the Oscar situation in this move. First of all, so Michelle Williams lost to Rachel Weisz in The Constant Gardener, a movie I don’t believe anybody has seen in 20 years. That said, Rachel Weiß is, as we know, a goddess, can like turn a snarky one-liner, her performance in The Favorite, when we had her on Keep It, we discussed that performance. That said You know who else lost this year? Amy Adams and June Bug. Amy Adams in June Bug is the reason we keep nominating Amy Adams for Oscars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that’s where the Oscars should have gone. And by the way, great movie. What did we do with M. Beth David? She was honey in the Matilda movie. She was in June bug and now she’s an M dash. And what happened?

 

Charleton Lamb We’re waiting for her to finish that claw.

 

Louis Virtel Like that?

 

Charleton Lamb Um, oh my god, you know, I always used to get confused. I thought she was the kind of like sort of random love interest in Mission Impossible 1.

 

Louis Virtel Oh, and who is that? Is that like Natasha McElhone or something? I forgot.

 

Charleton Lamb No, it’s not even it’s like some like I thought I think her name is like French of some kind or something

 

Louis Virtel Okay, right unknowable unknowing

 

Charleton Lamb I’m a noble person, but I always thought it was Miss Honey, and I was like, okay, Miss Get out there. Shout out to Amy Adams. I do think it’s funny that Michelle Williams, at this point, I feel like has lost just as many Oscars as Amy has.

 

Louis Virtel Coming up close, I think she’s at five now. And Manchester by the Sea has a very similar situation where she walks onto screen and it’s just, what if I blubbered right now, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But her moment will come and Amy Adam’s moment will to, okay. If they make Venom four. No, and I have faith. We’ll be right back with our favorite segment on the episode, it’s Keep It. And now it’s time for the special feature on our program. It’s called Keep It. The podcast is also called Keep it. It can be a bit confusing, but it’s also our favorite segment of the episode where we just say keep it to something in pop culture we’re upset with. Charleton, what is your keep it this week?

 

Charleton Lamb Okay, my Keep It This Week, as you know, I’m a big movie fan, I go to the movies pretty much every Tuesday, half price, and I would like to talk about this trend of the novelty popcorn buckets.

 

Louis Virtel It is quite expansive, you can expect a new crazy one pretty frequently.

 

Charleton Lamb Expensive and expensive. So I also like him a sucker for, you know trinkets merch of any kind So I was going to see You know my favorite actor of all time in his new film Tom Cruise Mission Impossible the final reckoning and I knew there was this novelty popcorn bucket for those at home I’m holding it right now. It is in the shape of like I don’t even know what we learned what this is, but like It’s the thing inside the submarine where the podkova was, and he has to use the cruciform key to get in here.

 

Louis Virtel That’s what it is. Yeah, it’s sort of lantern looking this thing and it’s he locates it in the underwater segment

 

Charleton Lamb And you look at it in that underwater sequence. And that’s my first issue. It’s like, why could this be some more recognizable like item? Like there are eight different nuclear weapons for no reason. Like it could have been that. It could have in the biplane. It could’ve been just Ving Rhames’s head. It could of been like all these things. And then the worst part is because it’s this thing, there’s like it’s essentially like a puzzle you have to put together.

 

Louis Virtel Oh yeah, what would I call that? A cryptex or something, yes.

 

Charleton Lamb Yes. And then I do think the cruciform key is fun. Whatever. I’m not going to do this right now. But and that’s like kind of the point because I went and I got to movie theater and I bought this thing that when I looked at my receipt later, $30, excuse me, right? The man refused to put popcorn in it because he was like, I’m solving this puzzle right now. Like I just don’t, I don’t have time for that. I don’t have to play.

 

Louis Virtel Your game.

 

Charleton Lamb Yeah. Yes. And I’m like, excuse me, you better use the cruciform key on my bucket and put popcorn in it. That’s the only point of what I’m out here doing. It was really just a disappointing Wait, and you bought…

 

Louis Virtel This is from this man.

 

Charleton Lamb Yes. Excuse me. Exactly. I was like, sir, I didn’t buy a toy. I bought a popcorn bucket. And in that photo, it’s filled with popcorn and.

 

Louis Virtel I know it’s possible

 

Charleton Lamb And so now I’m walking back to my seat with like popcorn in one hand and this like bizarre Item and the other it was the whole thing was quite disappointing in my experience

 

Louis Virtel That’s not chic. It should have been filled with popcorn and he should have known that, but that he would wave you away as if you were like a fan or something.

 

Charleton Lamb I know. And so, will I be buying the Fantastic Four novelty popcorn holder that it looks, have you seen the photo? It looks like it’s Reed’s, Reed Richards, Pedro Pascal’s penis has stretched around the bucket. Oh, that’s lucky. But it’s, I think it is actually his hand, obviously, but the photos they’ve chosen, like the angle is quite suggestive.

 

Louis Virtel Also, you know, they did that on purpose. Excuse me. I know there’s a meeting they’re like guys Can we make it a look a little penicy?

 

Charleton Lamb I know, and I’m gonna buy it, and my budget is now up to $50 for that one. But you better put popcorn in it, is my point. That’s all I’m saying.

 

Louis Virtel It has one job, you know what I’m saying? You’re not supposed to just wield it on the side. It’s part of the experience.

 

Charleton Lamb But now I think what I’m gonna do is I’m going to use it as a champagne bucket at my- Ooh, gorge. Only my fanciest dinner parties.

 

Louis Virtel Okay, okay. My Keep It This Week goes to just bad news I don’t want to hear because we’re so down on this one particular person and I just need something to go kind of rad for her because it’s uncomfortable to me, the internet culture surrounding Katy Perry. Katy Perry and Orlando Bloom have broken up. Not right now during the worst album cycle in history for 143, which is technically an album. They put a bunch of songs together released it. It’s an album. But she and Orlando Bloom were kind of an institution together for quite a long time. I like them together. I like a pairing that’s not exactly intuitive. Like, I don’t even know why these people would have met, but that’s kind of my favorite version of a couple, you know, one medium, the other, they were about the same famous at some point. You know, and so now it feels like we’re letting them both go now that they’re separating and just, you know again, there’s certain rounds of like, hate going around about. Like really famous people, like there’s one with Benson Boone right now, where it’s just, this is getting to me a little sweaty and a little bit like the hangers-on are joining in and getting to feel like haters too, and it’s like not fun. So I need Katy Perry, maybe just fake generate some news for herself that is positive.

 

Charleton Lamb I just feel like Orlando needs to take Katie back on one of those paddleboard tours and remind her why they fell in love.

 

Louis Virtel Excuse me and why I fell in love. Excuse me. If you remember this paddleboard picture, first of all, I didn’t realize people just sat on a paddleboard. I didn t even know that was legal or advisable. Second of all what we see in that picture and I know it’s intrusive and I know TMZ or splash news or whatever went too far. But the fact of the matter is we went that far. And I understand why she went that far into the water. Like Virginia Wolf walking to her death, she’s like, get me into the water near the paddleboard.

 

Charleton Lamb Yes, and Orlando, he’s rowing with one paddle, and he’s just got another paddle waiting between his legs.

 

Louis Virtel He is a member of the crew, shall we say. He’s a coxswain, if you know what I’m going for. The Winkle Vi, motherfucker!

 

Charleton Lamb You know, I just feel like with a man like that, nothing is too far. Nothing can’t be broken. Nothing can be fixed, you know?

 

Louis Virtel Right and I should be mad at him because he’s part of the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise which I believe historically was designed to make Keira Knightley look like a bad actress when she’s not and I have decided not to hold it against him so yeah yeah yeah you know agree and if people haven’t seen the movie Colette recently she slays in it and the the dresses are sensational so good so good that is our episode uh… Charleton thank you so much for joining us and thank you for lost all my god we have the conversation whether or not we were recording it so thank you for knowing letting us record it

 

Charleton Lamb I look forward to our second date.

 

Louis Virtel Please, I’ll bring like my novelty popcorn bucket the next time we hang out, but it’ll be from like whatever, Carol, and it’ll just be like a Rooney Mara head or something. Okay, amazing, yes. And as you know, I stan Rooney Morrow, so this is over Kate Mara. So this is our first real argument. Well, I would love to see Rooney decapitated, perfect. Yeah, okay, and on that note. We will be back not next week because both Ira and I are on vacation, so we will see you the week afterwards. And, uh… Should be pretty fab.

 

Ira Madison III Don’t forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. You can also subscribe to Keep It on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content. And if you’re as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review.

 

Louis Virtel Keep It is a Crooked Media Production, our producer is Bill McGrath, our associate producer is Kennedy Hill, and our executive producers are Ira Madison III, Louis Virtel, and Kendra James.

 

Ira Madison III Our digital team is Delon Villanueva, Claudia Sheng, and Rachel Gajewski. This episode was recorded and mixed by Jarek Centeno. Thank you to David Toles, Kyle Seglin, and Charlotte Landes for production support every week.

 

Louis Virtel Our head of production is Matt DeGroot and Madeline Herringer is our head of programming. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

 

Ira Madison III And as always, keep it as filmed in front of a live studio audience.

 

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