• In both court and in interviews Monday, the Trump administration doubled down on its decision over the weekend to deport more than 250 migrants, mostly Venezuelans. About half of them were removed under the Alien Enemies Act, a centuries-old war-time law President Donald Trump has invoked to deport suspected members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua with little to no due process. It’s just one of a handful of really scary anti-immigration efforts the White House has undertaken recently, including the push to deport Columbia University grad student Mahmoud Kahlil over his involvement in campus protests against the war in Gaza. Nico Perrino, executive vice president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, talks about how Kahlil’s case sits at the intersection of the Trump administration’s crackdown on immigration and free speech.
• And in headlines: Trump signed an executive order to dismantle the agency that runs Voice of America, the White House said it has expelled South Africa’s ambassador to the U.S., and Harvard University announced plans to make attending the school more financially realistic for middle- and low-income families.
• Correction: During our interview with journalist Josh Barro on Monday’s show, we said Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is 80 years old. He’s 74. We regret the error.

• Check out FIRE’s letter – https://tinyurl.com/4ppmdsdn
• Subscribe to the What A Day Newsletter – https://tinyurl.com/3kk4nyz8
• Support victims of the fire – votesaveamerica.com/relief
• What A Day – YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@whatadaypodcast

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TRANSCRIPT

Jane Coaston: It’s Tuesday, March 18th, I’m Jane Coaston, and this is What a Day, the show that found out that Mercury is in retrograde until April 7th, which checks out, despite me not knowing what that means. [music break] On today’s show, President Donald Trump dismantles Voice of America, and the administration expels South Africa’s ambassador to the U.S. But first, let’s start with immigration, because it’s been a scary few days for a lot of people living in the U.S. who aren’t citizens, whether they’re here legally on a green card or visa, or they’re undocumented, or you just happen to love those people very much. On Monday, the Trump administration doubled down on its decision over the weekend to deport more than 250 migrants, mostly Venezuelans. About half of them were removed under the Alien Enemies Act, a centuries-old law President Donald Trump has invoked to deport suspected members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua. Trump was asked about his use of the wartime law to deport migrants with little to no due process. Speaking on Air Force One Monday, the president said, this is a war. 

[clip of President Donald Trump] In many respects, it’s more dangerous than war, because, you know, in war, they have uniforms. You know who you’re shooting at. You know who you’re going after. 

Jane Coaston: So it’s not a war. But the big question is whether the administration carried out these deportations in violation of a federal judge’s order Saturday to turn back the flights. The White House says it didn’t, that the plans were over international waters by the time the judge issued his ruling, and therefore it didn’t apply. Trump’s border czar, Tom Homan, had the most unhinged, does this mean we’re in the constitutional crisis take on that question when he told Fox and Friends, basically, fuck those judges, Trump for King. 

[clip of Tom Homan] I wake up every morning loving my job because I work for the greatest president in the history of my life and we’re going to make this country safe again. I’m proud to be a part of this administration. We’re not stopping. I don’t care what the judges think. I don’t care what the left thinks. We’re coming. 

Jane Coaston: But when asked about Homan’s comments later at the White House press briefing, press secretary Karoline Leavitt said, nothing to see here, folks. Everything is totally cool and above board. 

[clip of unnamed reporter] So I’m only asking just to be clear for the American people. It is the administration’s belief that they [?] that they feel like you are bound to comply by the judge’s orders? 

[clip of Karoline Leavitt] We are compliant with the judge’s orders. 

Jane Coaston: The judge who issued the order blocking the flights, well, he had questions about that. During a tense hearing Monday, he asked the government to give him more details by noon Eastern today, proving it did not violate his order. Or at least a better explanation for why they can’t answer that question. But the mess over the Alien Enemies Act is just one of a handful of really terrifying deportation efforts the White House has undertaken recently, including against people who were in this country with full legal documentation. A doctor from Lebanon with a valid visa was detained and turned back upon her return to the U.S. after visiting family. The Department of Homeland Security says she attended the funeral of the former leader of the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah last month, but hasn’t said whether she committed a crime or immigration violation. A Columbia University student from India who was involved in the campus protests over the war in Gaza said she fled to Canada after her student visa was abruptly revoked and immigration agents showed up at her door. DHS accused her of being a terrorist sympathizer, and then, most notably, there is the arrest and detention of another Columbia student, Mahmoud Khalil, earlier this month over his involvement in pro-Palestine protests on campus. He has not been charged with a crime, but the Trump administration is arguing it has the right to revoke his green card and deport him anyway. It wants to use an obscure law that gives Secretary of State the power to remove people he or she seems to have quote, “potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the country.” Hey, maybe you’re hearing all of this and thinking, eh, serves those people right to get kicked out. Some of them could be gang members or enter the US illegally. Maybe they hold views that you deeply oppose. That’s valid, but that’s actually not the point. The lack of recourse and due process these people are receiving is, not to mention the potential violation of a judge’s order. That should scare everyone, including you. We’re going to talk specifically about Khalil’s case and what it says about the Trump administration’s approach to immigration and free speech. I spoke with Nico Perrino about it. He’s the executive vice president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, or FIRE. FIRE has been sounding the alarm about Khalil’s case since he was arrested. The organization wrote a letter to the White House last week demanding answers as to why he was arrested and if he’ll be given due process. Nico, welcome to What a Day. 

Nico Perrino: Thanks for having me. 

Jane Coaston: Have we ever seen a case like this before where the federal government has tried to deport a permanent resident for participating in acts of dissent? And I think it’s important to keep emphasizing permanent residents. Like we are not talking about someone who is visiting on a visa. We are talking about someone who has acquired permanent residency, which even if you marry a citizen is still a very involved process. Have we seen something like this before? 

Nico Perrino: I have to think back to the Palmer raids, actually, in 1919, when the government went after thousands of alleged anarchists, communists, left-wing radicals. Even then, the folks got a hearing before a judge. I have talked to immigration attorneys and they had said they haven’t seen anything quite like this. And I think there are probably like 12 novel constitutional questions involved in this one arrest and detention. At a point sooner rather than later, the courts are gonna have to figure out how the First Amendment applies to lawful permanent residents in the United States. 

Jane Coaston: Now, the Trump administration claims it can legally deport Khalil under the Immigration and Nationality Act. Can you break down what this act does and the specific clause the administration is invoking to make its case? 

Nico Perrino: Yeah, well, I’ve actually got Mahmoud Khalil’s notice to appear document here in my hands. They’re citing the Immigration and Nationality Act, which gives the Secretary of State permission to deport someone if they have reasonable ground to believe that the person’s presence or activities in the United States would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States. So this is essentially creating unbounded discretion for the Secretary of State to deport someone if they’re quote, “adversely affecting foreign policy consequences for the United States.” So what what what does that actually mean? I think it means whatever the Secretary of State says it means. I think it can just be weaponized and used by a tool for administrations to go after their political opponents or whoever is dissenting from their foreign policy at any given time. And that’s dangerous. You have 13 million green card holders here in the United States. 

Jane Coaston: The Trump administration has also claimed that Khalil led, quote, “activities aligned to Hamas by organizing pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia.” In an interview with NPR, DHS Deputy Secretary Troy Edgar said this when asked if protesting is a deportable offense. 

[clip of Michel Martin] Is protesting a deportable offense?

[clip of Troy Edgar] Like I said, you’re focused on protests. I’m focused on it’s a visa process. He went through a legal process, came into the country 

[clip of Michel Martin] Are you saying that he lied on his application? He’s a lawful–

[clip of Troy Edgar] I think I think–

[clip of Michel Martin] –permanent resident married to an American citizen. 

[clip of Troy Edgar] I think if he would have declared he’s a terrorist, we would have never let him in. 

[clip of Michel Martin] And what in did he engage in that constitutes terrorist activity? 

[clip of Troy Edgar] I mean, Michelle, have you watched it on TV? It’s pretty clear. 

[clip of Michel Martin] It’s, no it isn’t.

Jane Coaston: What’s your response to this argument that it’s all on TV, plain as day, that Khalil’s actions warrant deportation? 

Nico Perrino: My response is more of the head scratching. It’s these shifting justifications, but if you look at the notice to appear, all it says is that the secretary of state has this discretion. There’s nothing on there about him lying on his green card or visa applications. There’s nothing in there about him engaging in any sort of unlawful activity. And all you’re hearing from the administration right after they arrest and detain him is that they’re going after pro Hamas terrorist sympathizers. Donald Trump posted something on Truth Social about how they’re going to be purging campuses of un-American activity, which leads me to wonder, it’s like, are we going to start another House on American activities committee to determine what is an American activity? Now Mahmood Khalil was a spokesperson and mediator for the encampment at Columbia. He is involved in those student groups, but you’re allowed to be involved in controversial student groups here on United States campuses. We tell students to come from foreign countries, often countries with authoritarian dictatorships, to come here to the United States and bask in the freedom of speech and discussion and academic freedom that our campuses allow for. But now we’re essentially telling them watch what you say. I don’t know that that’s the message of liberty that we want to send to to foreigners or to lawful permanent residents who wish to stay here. 

Jane Coaston: Now, if you’ll allow me to be a giant dork, because this this really interests me, the arguments that I’m hearing, and you actually brought up 1919 a little bit earlier, there’s a case from 1919, Abrams versus United States. And this kind of reminds me of that a little bit. Can you tell me about that case and specifically Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’s legendary dissent? 

Nico Perrino: Yeah. So this was a case that involved Eastern Europeans protesting against America’s involvement in the Bolshevik revolution, essentially calling for a general strike because they didn’t want America to send troops or material to you know put down the Soviets or to fight against the Soviets. And they threw some leaflets out of windows in one instance, calling for this general strike. And they were thrown in jail for this. And these were foreigners. They weren’t citizens, and Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote a dissent in that case, and it was called the Great Dissent. It was the dissent that changed the course of the First Amendment’s history. Prior to that, the First Amendment meant nothing. Anti-war protesters, labor radicals, they’re all thrown in jail Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday for their speech. And from there, the first amendment started to grow into the thing it is today, and it all came from a dissent defending the rights of a foreigner here in the United States. And the Supreme Court has referenced this dissent countless times throughout the last hundred plus years. And so we ignore that dissent and all the wisdom and law that came from it in this rationale that the government is using right to go after Mahmoud Khalil.

Jane Coaston: Something that struck me is that the Khalil case isn’t even about opinions about the United States. They are about opinions with regard to another country, in this case, Israel’s actions in Gaza. So how does that play into how the administration is handling this? Like, it is completely legal to be in the United States and say, fuck America. I could do that all day if I wanted to, but I have things to do. But this is actually in many cases about talking about another country that is not the United States. 

Nico Perrino: And that’s why this is confusing is that you can criticize America, you can criticize China, you can criticize Russia, you can criticize Israel. All of this is protected by the first amendment. But I think what you have here is an administration that was brought into office because a lot of people in America didn’t like how the protests had unfolded on college campuses since October 7th. And many of those protests involved unlawful activity, building occupations, vandalism, preventing people from accessing different portions of campus. But a lot of those protests also involved protected speech and you need to be able to sort between the two. And Mahmoud Khalil would not wear a mask at these protests. Yeah, that was a principle of his, the New York Times report on this. He would not wear a mask at any of these protests. So he was very visible when he was attending and working as a spokesperson and mediator. And I think because he was visible, they were able to identify him. And now they’re going after him to deport him as well. But maybe the case isn’t as good for deporting him as it would have been maybe one of the building occupiers per se. 

Jane Coaston: Nico, thank you so much for being here. 

Nico Perrino: Happy to be here, any time. 

Jane Coaston: That was my conversation with Nico Perrino. He’s the Executive Vice President of FIRE. We’ll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. [music break]

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: Here’s what else we’re following today. 

[sung] Headlines. 

[clip of Representative Jamie Raskin] They lose on a daily basis, um which is why Donald Trump increasingly is now trying to um attack and intimidate lawyers. 

Jane Coaston: Maryland Democratic Representative Jamie Raskin says even though President Donald Trump, quote, “gives the finger to the courts every single day,” Democrats are winning on a daily basis in court. Raskin spoke with the What a Day newsletter Monday and said Democrats are defeating the administration’s efforts to nullify birthright citizenship and that they’re working to stop the unconstitutional spending freeze and halt the mass sacking of probationary employees. 

[clip of Representative Jamie Raskin] One of the victories we won last week was um a federal district court decision in the District of Columbia finding that DOGE is in fact a federal agency. That means that DOGE is subject to FOIA and the Privacy Act. 

Jane Coaston: In that decision, a federal judge ruled that Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency must respond to public records requests, as it’s likely subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Raskin said his optimism comes from looking, quote, “through the prism of the Constitution.” 

[clip of Representative Jamie Raskin] Donald Trump has already lost several times in this administration in the court. Um. I think it was last week, or perhaps the week before, there was a 5-4 decision upholding lower court rulings that the administration had to spend $2.1 billion of AID money that they had um held up um and said the court stood with Congress’s power of the purse under Article 1. 

Jane Coaston: Raskin says there have been more than 120 cases filed against the administration so far, and the court is doing its job to uphold the law. The Trump administration says South Africa’s ambassador has been officially expelled from the United States. That’s after Secretary of State Marco Rubio declared him persona non grata on Twitter last week and called him a, quote, “race-baiting politician who hates America and President Trump.” South Africa’s government called the decision to expel Ambassador Ebrahim Rasool, quote, “regrettable.” In his Friday tweet, Rubio cited an article from the right-wing news website Breitbart. It linked to a video of Rasool giving a webinar speech to a South African think tank. In it, Rasool accused Trump of leading a white supremacist movement and pinned it in part to changing demographics in the U.S. At the same time, the Trump administration has created an extremely small carve out in its draconian anti-immigration policies specifically for South Africa’s minority white population. Trump signed an executive order last month saying his White House would prioritize resettling white, quote, “Afrikaner refugees.” He also halted all foreign aid to the country. It’s tied to a conspiracy in right-wing circles that white South Africans face persecution from the country’s majority Black post-apartheid government. But the white South Africans are really doing just fine. While they only make up about 7% of the population, they still own at least half the land. 

[clip of Voice America spokesperson] Join us now on The Voice of America as we explore the issues in the news. 

Jane Coaston: Trump signed an executive order Friday to dismantle the US agency for global media, the office that runs Voice of America. The federally funded broadcast service was founded during World War Two to deliver news around the world to combat Nazi propaganda. It has a global audience of hundreds of millions of listeners. Trump has always hated VOA ever since his first term in office. He and Republicans have accused the network of being biased against conservatives. Co-president Elon Musk called on the government to shut down VOA last month. Branding it as an outlet run by, quote, “radical left crazy people.” The director of VOA said Saturday that nearly all staffers of the network were put on indefinite paid leave in the wake of Trump’s executive order. That’s more than a thousand journalists and producers. Some VOA staffers told Politico that they were on their way to work when they received an email telling them not to come in. It’s unclear what this means for Kari Lake. The Arizona Republican Trump tapped to lead the agency for global media now that the agency might not exist anymore. Lake, a failed gubernatorial and senate candidate, was set to direct VOA. It’s giving, um, Linda McMahon. Harvard has plans to make attending the school more financially realistic. Harvard University President Alan Garber announced Monday that starting in the 2025-2026 academic school year, undergraduate tuition will be free for students whose family’s annual income is $200,000 or less. And for students whose families make $100,000 or less annually, Harvard College will be even more free. The Harvard Gazette said on top of tuition, billed expenses like food, housing, health insurance and travel costs will be covered. Is it too late to see if I can get into Harvard? The decision comes as the Trump administration is working tirelessly to cut diversity efforts in schools, the federal government, the military, basically anything it can get its hands on. Garber said, quote, “putting Harvard within financial reach for more individuals widens the array of backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives that all of our students encounter, fostering their intellectual and personal growth.” Other schools like the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have also announced similar tuition plans since the Supreme Court’s decision to end affirmative action in higher education. And that’s the news. [music break] 

[AD BREAK]

Jane Coaston: That’s all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, tell me which food cannot be paired with either peanut butter or hot sauce, and tell your friends to listen. And if you’re into reading and not just about how this question, the product of sports journalist Mike Golick Jr. has overtaken my entire life, like me, What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at Crooked.com/subscribe. I’m Jane Coaston and I am completely serious. Tell me, which food cannot be paired with either peanut butter or hot sauce? What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It’s recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Fohr. Our producer is Michell Eloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our executive producer is Adriene Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.